West Ham co-owner David Sullivan has admitted that the London club made a huge mistake signing Liverpool flop Andy Carroll on a permanent deal.
Due to persistent injury, Carroll - who cost the Reds £35m in 2011 (it still feels sickening to write that!) - has not played a single game for West Ham since signing his permanent deal in June.
Speaking to the BBC over the weekend, Sullivan argued that Carroll is 'fantastic' and 'unplayable' on his day, but expressed regret over the £15m outlay on the striker. He noted:
"Had we known he [Carroll] would be out for this long, we would not have signed him. We can't buy a player knowing he is going to be out for half the season. We are not a rich enough club to deal with that.
"I can't have that amount of wages and that amount of transfer fee on a player who isn't going to play a minimum 20 or 30 games a season"
Liverpool made a £20m loss on Carroll, but it had to be done, and Brendan Rodgers undoubtedly made the right decision to send him out loan, and then sell in the summer.
It's a mistake for any club to spend £15m on Carroll (IMO), let alone £35m (!) He just isn't a prolific goalscorer, and probably never will be. Take West Ham, for example: during his loan spell, he contributed only 7 goals in 24 games, and that's playing in a team set-up to serve him.
Last week, Rodgers shed some more light on why he let Carroll leave. He told reporters:
"I just felt [having Carroll] wouldn’t benefit Luis because when you play with a big target man, it is hard not to make him your focal point, so everything has to be set around the big guy. Sometimes you get sucked into doing it more direct and clearly, with my history as a coach, I don’t work that way"
Rodgers got it spot on: Carroll's departure has unleashed Luis Suarez, and the Uruguayan is banging in goals for fun right how. He and Sturridge are the type of strikers around whom you build a team, and it still amazes me that Kenny Dalglish thought it was a good idea to spend so much money on a big target man.
Dalglish must've surely known that having a player like that would inexorably lead to outdated route-one football - a style of play that is deservedly anathema at Anfield - yet he broke with the club's pass and move philosophy to bring in a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player who clearly didn't fit in.
As a player and a manager, Dalglish did as much as anyone to solidify Liverpool's enduring football philosophy, so it's somewhat ironic that he signed Carroll, which (IMO) represented an obvious betrayal of Liverpool's long-established footballing principles. Having said that, Dalglish clearly deserves credit for signing Jordan Henderson, who continues to exponentially improve, and is developing into a very important player for the club.
Carroll, on the other hand, remains a transfer aberration for Liverpool, but given Dalglish's amazing positive impact on LFC over the years, it's a mistake that will quickly be forgotten in the sands of time.
Author: Jaimie K
Due to persistent injury, Carroll - who cost the Reds £35m in 2011 (it still feels sickening to write that!) - has not played a single game for West Ham since signing his permanent deal in June.
Speaking to the BBC over the weekend, Sullivan argued that Carroll is 'fantastic' and 'unplayable' on his day, but expressed regret over the £15m outlay on the striker. He noted:
"Had we known he [Carroll] would be out for this long, we would not have signed him. We can't buy a player knowing he is going to be out for half the season. We are not a rich enough club to deal with that.
"I can't have that amount of wages and that amount of transfer fee on a player who isn't going to play a minimum 20 or 30 games a season"
Liverpool made a £20m loss on Carroll, but it had to be done, and Brendan Rodgers undoubtedly made the right decision to send him out loan, and then sell in the summer.
It's a mistake for any club to spend £15m on Carroll (IMO), let alone £35m (!) He just isn't a prolific goalscorer, and probably never will be. Take West Ham, for example: during his loan spell, he contributed only 7 goals in 24 games, and that's playing in a team set-up to serve him.
Last week, Rodgers shed some more light on why he let Carroll leave. He told reporters:
"I just felt [having Carroll] wouldn’t benefit Luis because when you play with a big target man, it is hard not to make him your focal point, so everything has to be set around the big guy. Sometimes you get sucked into doing it more direct and clearly, with my history as a coach, I don’t work that way"
Rodgers got it spot on: Carroll's departure has unleashed Luis Suarez, and the Uruguayan is banging in goals for fun right how. He and Sturridge are the type of strikers around whom you build a team, and it still amazes me that Kenny Dalglish thought it was a good idea to spend so much money on a big target man.
Dalglish must've surely known that having a player like that would inexorably lead to outdated route-one football - a style of play that is deservedly anathema at Anfield - yet he broke with the club's pass and move philosophy to bring in a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player who clearly didn't fit in.
As a player and a manager, Dalglish did as much as anyone to solidify Liverpool's enduring football philosophy, so it's somewhat ironic that he signed Carroll, which (IMO) represented an obvious betrayal of Liverpool's long-established footballing principles. Having said that, Dalglish clearly deserves credit for signing Jordan Henderson, who continues to exponentially improve, and is developing into a very important player for the club.
Carroll, on the other hand, remains a transfer aberration for Liverpool, but given Dalglish's amazing positive impact on LFC over the years, it's a mistake that will quickly be forgotten in the sands of time.
Author: Jaimie K
I hear that cocaine and football don't go that well together anymore..
ReplyDeleteCarroll...so glad he has left. That is all.
ReplyDeleteOh dear......those that were saying you've got a vendetta on KD are looking like they've got a point.
ReplyDeleteWhat you're saying is mostly right, but he's been gone for ages now, so what benefit in dragging this up?
As we all know, Carroll was a very poorly judged panic buy and obviously KD had input, but I believe it was a committee purchase. So you've just let Torres go to Chelski on the last day of the window (thanks Nando), but good business at £50M, having also just acquired Suarez.
Now, I was delighted at Suarez purchase, but no one could know how good he'd be in the Prem straight away and what other options did we have. Plus, Carroll had looked very decent for Newcastle in the Championship.
Should never have paid £35M in any case and certainly not for a crocked played (remember he was injured when he came), but it's done now and you're right, people will not hold it against KD and nor should they.
Yes, just ignore all the positive things I said about Dalglish in the same article :-)
ReplyDeleteSullivan's comments about Carroll were made over the weekend, thus they are timely and related to LFC. There is no statute of limitations on discussing stuff that happened in the past. I post about what interests me, and this interests me.
The idea that I have vendetta against Dalglish is simplistic nonsense, and any fair-minded person would see that.
Regular assessment/evaluation of the past is vital in all spheres of life (IMO), and that will continue to happen here.
In fairness, Kenny doubled-down thinking he could make Carroll the focal point attack-wise. He brought in Downing and Adam to provide crosses with the idea that Carroll would succeed with talent around him to suit his strengths aerially.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, Kenny bet on the wrong horse and it set us back two years.
It happens. Most things don't go according to plan.
Here's hoping that Henderson keeps improving for us. 20m was still overspending on him, but at least he has been improving after that dreadful first year.
I feel sorry for Carroll, I really do. Thought he might do well at West Ham, but he is made of glass and in hindsight Liverpool probably got the best out of it they could possibly hope for, having spent all that cash in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI know that you post what you like and I only said that "those that were saying you've got a vendetta on KD are looking like they've got a point."
ReplyDeleteSo, I was not saying that you've got a vendetta out for KD, but that by your fairly frequent stories that identify problems during his reign, you are certainly making it look like you do.
I've also acknowledged your comment that people won't hold t against him.
I think that you and I probably actually feel similar about KD's second stint as manager. It was not successful and it set us back even further after the disaster that was RE.
We'd have been better off to keep the £35M in our back pocket and waited until the next window to buy a striker worth the money.
It's your site and I respect your right to post whatever stories you want. I just don't get the point of posting this. Carroll's an OK player for what he is, but he's not LFC standard and nothing like a good fit for BR's style, so you're not telling us anything we don't know.
After, what must be the best performance under BR a WHL, why not start a story asking when we last had a better team performance? That'll get people thinking.
When getting Carrol was one of the worst transfers ever for LFC, getting him off for 15m (+2m loan fee) was quite clever and brilliant. Imagine him still at the treatment table with Gerrard and Sturridge hahaha.
ReplyDeleteFunny this. I said numerous times last year that it would take a dinosaur good old Ingurland type manager to be stupid enough to pay any money what so ever for Downing and Carrol and that is exactly what happened. Some people were upset about the money we lost but I was baffled that anyone was even willing to pay more than two quid for the both of them. Sullivan saying this now means he must have had his head up his behind at the time. It was plain for all to see that Carrol was not going to do anything for them. They bought him based on a couple of performances near the end of the season. That's just as silly as us buying him in the first place.
ReplyDeleteCan someone tell me where can I find stats for distance covered vs tottenham?
ReplyDeleteAnd other matches, of course..
ReplyDeleteYou can try EPL Index or Anfield Index. Not sure about distance covered but guess you can give it a shot.
ReplyDeleteThen there was also Comolli who based every signing purely on stats. Enrique, Downing and Adam were all signed to provide Carroll with the ball. At least we are getting some good use out of Enrique as an attacking fullback.
ReplyDeletei think king kenny must of been playing on some FIFA 11 and 12. Cuz suarez and carrol were bad ass on that game haha.
ReplyDeletenope.. I can't believe these stats are so hard to find. And I think these stats are the key for understanding why we didn't miss Gerrard. Don't get me wrong,I love him and think he is still awesome and contributes a lot, but he simply can't run enough for 90 minutes every match. If he gets subed on time and runs 9 km in say 60minutes- that leaves enough space and time for Allen and Hendo to make an impact instead of covering for himall the time.. Also moving him upfront would help a lot...
ReplyDeleteActually, Jaimie is a subjective human, albeit annoying in that respect most times ;), but he says what most of us would rather choose to ignore and turn a blind eye to. He also was very critical of Rafa and gave credit to him when it was due. Same with Suarez and a host of them. Looking back to Carroll's issue isn't a bad thing. KD is not above criticisms. He signed a crock for LFC, who also wasn't suited to our system. I still bite my lips in frustrations whenever I remember the $$$$ we blew on that lad. But it's in the past now... YNWA
ReplyDeleteNot so sure having Carroll was going against all our previous principles, do people forget toshack & how successful he was
ReplyDeleteI think you've just said what I said. I just don't see the point in all the retrospective. It's not like any of it is news to anybody.
ReplyDeleteOnly person who thinks Carroll was worth more than £2.50p was his mum.
Opta should have them but distance run is not a creditable thing. Try to find high intensity sprinting which effects the game more than distance ran. There is no direct correlation between distance ran and winning a game. The source Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski's Soccernomics (moneyball)
ReplyDeleteYes, finally someone else who looks at it that way! Yes we spent a stupid amount of money on Carrol but many of us would have been expecting a worse loss than £20m.
ReplyDeleteSo Jamie, where is your piece on the victory over Spurs?
ReplyDeleteYeah! I've already asked that. Was it really such a slow news day? I mean, pick a dead story about KD buying a pup, over what must be the best LFC team performance since..............?
ReplyDeleteSometimes silence can be deafening. I hope other visitors and fellow reds who come on here think about that.
ReplyDeleteI haven't written anything about the game because I don't want to be part of the ridiculous hype/overpraise that's currently going on. It's ONE game. It's a superb victory, and like every LFC fan, I'm ecstatic. However, I'm not going to post something that would just amount to a thousand words of ego massage.
ReplyDeleteI want to see humility in the squad, not rampant backslapping after every victory. We'll see how the next three games go, and if the team remains focused and does well, then that's a real sign of forward progress.
My massively positive reaction to the result is obvious from the many glowing statuses on the site's FB page (during and after the game). Just because I don't post something after the game doesn't mean anything.
£50m + £17m - £35m = £32m. Not the worst ever piece of business.
ReplyDeleteGlass half full person....OK, so you're saying we effectively sold Torres for £32M, but glass half empty person says we wasted £18m. Either way, I'm not worried, as it's history that we can't change. As for learning from the past, I think FSG have learn't and won't ever buy such poor bang for buck again.
ReplyDeleteRampant backslapping over the Norwich or West Ham games might be a little inappropriate, even if Suárez' performance in the Norwich game was individually of such brilliance that it would be hard to think of a better LFC player performance ever.
ReplyDeleteA bit of backslapping over beating a so called top four contender (or title challenger in their own minds), who finished ahead of us last year and spent a pile of money for a title challenge, on their own turf to boot, is surely acceptable, even to you.
As for your concern that such back slapping might lead to complacency and loss of form, Suárez has come in for plenty of praise lately and I don't see his form dropping.
Wrong.
ReplyDeleteminus £35m plus £17m = minus £18m.
Very bad business.
What we have found out is that Lucas and Gerrard in the same team is out of the question. Either play one or the other.
ReplyDeleteAw.
ReplyDeleteWe will finish above manu this season, by the way...
ReplyDeleteof course not diirect, but it is vital stat.
ReplyDeleteThe only two direct correlations between stats and wining games are goals scored and conceeded...
Or sub Gerrard in the 60th minute, and let him know you will do it...
ReplyDeleteAnd thanksfor the info, will check it out..
ReplyDeleteAnd in the meantime you lost one of the best you've had in decades, and got the biggest headache you everhad.
ReplyDeleteYeah, great business..
A pointless article. The original piece from Sullivan was pretty irrelevant to start with - obviously they wouldn't have bought him had they known he would be out injured for so long, but that would apply to any footballer who gets injured. I don't really care about David Sullivan's opinion of Andy Carroll, so I'm not sure why Jaimie has chosen to quote it again here. In any case, anyone who scores a winning goal at Wembley against Everton is fine with me.
ReplyDeleteYeah obviously but other stat types contribute to those 2 stats. Those 2 stats don't just stand alone they need the other stats contribute to make them possible. Drinking game: Have a shot every time you see a comment or article that says stat. I do recommend it, it's good read and also covers other topics that could disprove the use of stats or effect how that stat works. My favourite part of the book so far is basically penalties are not as much as a lottery that you think and most footballers think but I'll let you read it for yourself :)
ReplyDeleteThe day before yesterday you questioned Henderson's place in the side and said he was not doing his job properly. Now you say he's fast developing into a very important player for the club . I know you also said he's improving exponentially but that's an amazing improvement in just two days.
ReplyDeleteHas Kenny ever said WHY he signed Carrol?? Anyone...?
ReplyDeleteYes... well I believe Comolli explained it. They needed a striker to replace Torres. Owners gave the permission to spend up 15m less than whatever they got for Torres.
ReplyDeleteCarroll was the best of the bunch that was available on such short notice.
Really, we could have gotten a better player in my view if we had more time. Felt very much like a panic move but Chelsea basically made us an offer we couldn't refuse.
Suarez's form is currently the best in top flight European domestic football.
ReplyDelete17 goals, 8 assists in 11 matches. Surely deserves to be called out.
1 yellow card in this period for a tactical foul. Reformed man?
If he stays for the season, we could well qualify for CL. This will increase revenues by £30 million minimum, help attract better quality players and improve our chances to qualify for 2015 / 2016 season when BT Sport money will almost double prize money for CL participation
Suarez's virtuoso displays could provide the sling shot for us to reach the level of Chelsea and Man City without financial doping
I hope we all recognize this if it comes to pass
In the mean time I'm not afraid to be quoted in saying that Suarez is the best player I have ever seen play for Liverpool and that I am definitely going over to see him this year, just in case he leaves
Rumours are that a 250k deal is on the table if we get CL. Considering his displays could be the catalyst for CL riches, est £80 million over next 2 seasons, 250k is a bargain
What a stupid statement! SG has been playing out of his best position only for the benefit of the team. He is still the best player after Luis, having the best pass rate and assist rate...
ReplyDeleteDon't judge him out after one game. IMO i think its down to BR telling the diamond in midtfield that SG was out and they had to perform... and further every player in the team are for SG, so they performed over the top.
Let's see after Cardiff, Man C and Chelsea game and then we make judgement...
Allen, Hendo and Lucas simply don't have the same calm in their game as SG.
...a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player....
ReplyDeletepriceless
Thanks, this is the best explanation I have heard to date.
ReplyDeleteWith respect, please do not twist my words :-) What you said here is gross misrepresentation of what I argued.
ReplyDelete* I didn't question Hendo's place in the side; Mark Lawrenson did. I questioned - as I have many times in the past - one aspect of Henderson's game: his end product in terms of goals/assists.
* As you note, I gave him credit for improving.
* He is developing into an important player for the club. Key word: developing, which denotes an ongoing process.
* The main thing missing from his game is consistent goals/assists. If he doesn't improve in this area, he'll never be as important for the club as he could be.
I think Gerrard being out may be a blessing in disguise for Henderson. When you watch him when he plays along side Gerrard he tends to try and find Gerrard to pick out the pass and do all the creativity but without he seemed to try and fill in Gerrards role against Tottenham this weekend by trying to find the killer balls and passing forward more. However saying that it is only one game so it remains to be seen if he can do it on a consistent basis. 1 game doesn't maketh a player after all. My argument with Januzaj at the moment. Also while on Januzaj how many times have we seen players his age come out with so much promise then just fade into football obscurity? The age to truly judge if a player is going to be good or not is the ages between 20-22 and coincidentally that's the only ages Lyon buy players. I like their set up. Buy players while they are young, sell them as soon as they hit their peek as teams will be more likely to buy players after a good season but that player will inevitably start to decline in a season or two. This was what Clough used to do as well and look what he did.
ReplyDeleteYou heard wrong
ReplyDeleteI am surprised that you are still vulnerable to any critique made at your own comments, especially in reply to your dogmatic views. Pigman was just expressing his view, as we are all invited to do; so your assassination of his view, would probably tend to eliminate any further discussion from that quarter.His views are just as valid as yours; but the supposition that you are far more intellectual and eloquent than he, smacks of arrogance. Tone down your replies so that that the debate can be judged on perceived benefit or otherwise to LFC, and not your own, unanswered, unencumbered, fascist personification of events.
ReplyDelete"a style of play that is deservedly anathema at anfield"...remember peter crouch?
ReplyDeleteFor me this was Sullivan starting to lay the ground work for sacking Allardyce.
ReplyDeleteMark my words he will be sack in the next few weeks and Sullivan will point to them spending 15m on Carrol and leaving them no backup strikers at the club.
Could very well be. Let's hope Fat Sam gets a new club soon though because we do need a few more players off loaded.
ReplyDeleteYour original response said my comment was a "gross misrepresentation" of your words now you say "a bit of a misrepresentation which is better but still wrong. I did not know you can amend your disqus comments but I'll let that go for now. I have re-read your original article (which fortunately has not yet been re-written) and I stand by what I said.
ReplyDeleteIn it YOU (not Mark Lawrenson) asks "how can an attacking midfielder with his record justify a consistent starting place". You then say that "his goals/assist ratio needs drastic improvement if he is to maintain his position in the team". To my mind the article overal and these quotes in particular are.indeed asking not unresonable questionsabout his place in the team. Your final comment about "Brendan's cloying man love" ensuring his starting place suggests it is not even his ability that gets him selected or at least not his footballing ability!.
Sorry, you are still ignoring the point. My main issue with Henderson is his end product. If he's not scoring/creating consistently then his place in the team should be questioned. That applies to any attacking player, not just Henderson.
ReplyDeleteThat's my only criticism of him. My comment about justifying his place in the team is not general; it is solely based on his end product, so please, once again, stop twisting my words, and give the needless pedantry a rest. You're trying make out that my comment about Henderson is generalised when it isn't.
My comment about Rodgers' 'man-love' is my opinion. Perhaps you should get over it?
Thank you I take your point about pedantry.Again you have managed to amuse me
ReplyDeleteWell, that's what I'm here for.
ReplyDeleteSent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
Wow…'bring in a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player' lol what great description! Rogers done me a service getting rid of Caroll, Downing, Adam and Spearing. I have flash backs of Carra looping the ball to Caroll who would trip and fall over like a drunk show horse.
ReplyDeleteHaving read your posts again, I can see your point about me questioning Hendo's place in the team. Next time, I'll just have to phrase it better.
ReplyDeleteYour latest article on the subject is clear and I don't disagree either.
ReplyDeleteyou have to remember the guy is injured so at the moment west ham wont be happy - but if his goals towards the end of the season keep them up then that 15 million will be a bargain for them.
ReplyDeleteOn the flip side carrol was never a liverpool type of player and goodness knows what went through the minds of KK and Comolli - maybe it was all to do with getting 50 million for torres.
We have to be thankful to allardici for taking cole, downing and carrol of our hands - yes we lost money but to be fair we were never going to recoup it.
On the flip side if we do ever sell Suarez it will be for a fantastic profit so all things will end equal!
crouch was something different...
ReplyDeleteSG has been playing out of his best position only for the benefit of the team- I agree, but I think it is not as benefitial as it would be playing him behind striker(s), and giving him less defensive obligations and minutes.
ReplyDeleteSweet.
ReplyDeleteLol! I'd have to agree! But I feel sorry for him. As it's not HIS fault he was the wrong type of player for us!
ReplyDelete