Liverpool legend Alan Hansen has delivered a withering assessment of England's toothless performance in last night's one-sided Euro 2012 quarter final against Italy.
Analysing the game for the BBC, Hansen savaged England's inability to retain possession, and although he conceded that Steven Gerrard was England's best player throughout the tournament, he was less than impressed with the captain's failure to handle Italy's midfield maestro Andrea Pirlo. He said:
"The gulf in class between the two teams was embarrassing. England were average, and for them, it was a conveyor belt of misplaced passes. At international level, possession is king; tonight it was England's biggest frailty, and the Italians were better in every department on the pitch.
"Pirlo has unbelievable quality and England could not match him or Italy. Pirlo has been fabulous, he controlled and dictated the game and was absolutely masterful. It was a masterclass in technical ability, and Steven Gerrard spent the night chasing Pirlo around".
I think Hansen is being kind labelling the gulf in class 'embarrassing' - Hodgson's team played like a pub team all night, and the ridiculous notion that England have 'world class' players was exposed once as sheer deluded fantasy..
Gerrard should've been England's Pirlo, but he doesn't have the technical ability or game intelligence at international level to have that kind of impact. The game was crying out for Gerrard to step up, take control and dictate the pace of play, but he just wasn't up to it. The brutal truth is Gerrard has never dominated a tournament match for England, and he never will.
And don't get me started on Wayne Rooney - World Class? What a joke. He might bang them in against the likes of Stoke and Bolton, but like all of England's players, he's just not good enough on the world stage.
Jaimie Kanwar
Analysing the game for the BBC, Hansen savaged England's inability to retain possession, and although he conceded that Steven Gerrard was England's best player throughout the tournament, he was less than impressed with the captain's failure to handle Italy's midfield maestro Andrea Pirlo. He said:
"The gulf in class between the two teams was embarrassing. England were average, and for them, it was a conveyor belt of misplaced passes. At international level, possession is king; tonight it was England's biggest frailty, and the Italians were better in every department on the pitch.
"Pirlo has unbelievable quality and England could not match him or Italy. Pirlo has been fabulous, he controlled and dictated the game and was absolutely masterful. It was a masterclass in technical ability, and Steven Gerrard spent the night chasing Pirlo around".
I think Hansen is being kind labelling the gulf in class 'embarrassing' - Hodgson's team played like a pub team all night, and the ridiculous notion that England have 'world class' players was exposed once as sheer deluded fantasy..
Gerrard should've been England's Pirlo, but he doesn't have the technical ability or game intelligence at international level to have that kind of impact. The game was crying out for Gerrard to step up, take control and dictate the pace of play, but he just wasn't up to it. The brutal truth is Gerrard has never dominated a tournament match for England, and he never will.
And don't get me started on Wayne Rooney - World Class? What a joke. He might bang them in against the likes of Stoke and Bolton, but like all of England's players, he's just not good enough on the world stage.
Jaimie Kanwar
Here you go again! Why not slam some of those players who haven't delivered at all this tournament?
ReplyDeleteAlan was a great club player but too slow at international level - no Lawrenson to cover him - played against Brazilians a few times and they murdered him so Sorry Alan - lack of pace means you would have faired no better
ReplyDeleteGerrard is not a midfield playmaker. He doesn't have the technical ability of Xavi, Pirlo or Alonso.
ReplyDeleteGerrard would have been at his best playing behind Rooney as the link man between midfield and attack. That's where Rafa got the best out of him. Not in centre midfield.
England have their own strengths and weaknesses of course but until they start playing a more team, passing oriented game they will never win anything. Now that Hodgson is managing the club their chances have dropped even further. I think, under the right manager, who gets them playing the right way, they could do some damage just purely on their physical ability and tenacity. Still might not win anything but at least they will play better than the boring defensive dross they are showing us now. Time to dump the traditional functional players and experiment with the flair players.
ReplyDeleteWhy is there always some excuse? It's Lampard's fault for restricting Gerrard; it's the manager's fault for playing him in the wrong position etc - it's always someone else's fault (!)
ReplyDeleteIf Gerrard was genuinely world class, he would dominate major international games against quality opposition, just like Pirlo has for years. Gerrard has never dominated a tournament game for England, and until he does, he can never be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Zidane, Maradona et al, who were genuinely world class players.
Gerrard will never be mentioned in the same breath as Maradona or Zidane by anyone but Liverpool fans. He has never played in a great team for club or country and hasn't the technique to play for a team like Barca.
ReplyDeleteGerrard has been an excellent player throughout his career. But he has rarely been world class because he has rarely done it on the world stage, besides 2005.
Guys there is one fact.Players are burned out.Everything else is rubbish.And ofcourse that star system making good footballers looking like giants.
ReplyDeleteThere is a reason going into yesterday's game nearly everyone polled deemed England to have already defied expectation!
ReplyDeleteIndividually we have fine players but collectively we are a joke!
We looked burnt out in all honesty......
Typically arrogant English drivel .
ReplyDeleteYes I know Hansen isnt English but the English dont pay for a dog & then bark themselves .
Given the circumstances surrounding his appointment & the standard
of player in his squad I thought Hodgson done a pretty good job with
England this summer .
Now back to English arrogance ...
Italy were very good on the night .
Basically they played with 10 men against England & like we have
seen on so many different occasions 10 men can prove harder to break
down than 11 men .
How can I say Italy played with 10 men ?
Anyone who seen the game could see how atrocious Balotelli was .
I have to say he is the worst player I have ever seen playing Centre Forward at a Euro finals , ever .
Cassano was casting pearls before swine all night long , jinking &
jiving here there & everywhere delivering clever wee balls into very
dangerous areas but the gormless Balotelli musta been imagining
tomorrows tabloid headlines because he sure as hell wasnt reading the
game !
Perhaps a drugs test is in order ?
Pirlo was good on the night too but I'm afraid I didnt notice him being quite as good as some people are trying to make out .
He used the ball very well , was tactically spot on & lead those
around him well but I have seen him & others perform better , which
is a testament to the English midfield .
However ...
What a masterful penalty he took !
Man Oh Man !
That is the stuff of Football legend .
When he scored that he scored two goals .
Italy were rocked & England were starting to believe .
Italy needed something & by God Pirlo stepped up , said "I Ama Tha
Man !" & done something very few on the planet could do in those
circumstances & with that wee moment of composure under pressure ,
that wee moment of technical excellence & match experience he turned
the whole course of events on its head , he lifted his team , he done
more than could have been asked of him & he got his & his
country's reward .
Fantastic moment in sport , fantastic moment in Football & a
fantastic moment in his career , well done Pirlo , we will be talking
about that magic moment 50 years from now & saying then as we are
now ...
Bravo Pirlo !
Germany had better be the Germany they have been threatening to be to
get past this typically composed , stubborn Italian side but only if
Italy can manage to find a centre forward clever enough to capitalize
upon Cassanos creative quality in the final 3'rd , they will need all
guns blazing against the Germans .
If Germany put them away with the aplomb they are capable of then I
think we can count ourselves among those lucky enough to have witnessed
yet another of the Legendary trophy winning German teams .
Final Word on England ?
Over performed to get out of their group & they know it too no matter what Hansen & his like try to tell us .
Really? So Casillas who is world class by any definition should also be a playmaker? Are you saying role in the team doesn't matter. Glen Johnson, John Terry and Joe Hart had world class performances but out of those 3, I would only credit Joe Hart in the world class category though he's not there. Again none of them stepped up to score a whole lotta goals. Gerrard was asked to play the defensive midfield position with Parker and the balls were circumventing the midfield to the forward line. Gerrard did what was aksed of him and held Pirlo's shooting in check, yet he is being criticized for not jumping 30 feet in the air to sop the ball going from Terry to Rooney. Ridiculous statement all around. But why let Hodgson's game plan get in the way of your facts Jamie. Please note this was not in contradiction of the site's policies in any way whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteGerrard is world class no doubt about it. But he can't do everything can he? Young,milner were awful. Gerrard had to work his socks off trying to contain italy Other players should of helped him an parker out. But also hodsons tactics were defensive if you give gerrard a more advance roll he could make the passes what pirlo did..
ReplyDeleteso people like zidane don t know football cause he called stevie world class....and all the great balls dribbels and goals he scored are just average?????2 me he is world class when playing his fool potentional....i agree in 1 point that he hasn t done it every time ...good provocation again jamie y full...ynwa
ReplyDeleteNo, Zidane and Maradonna were not 'genuinely world class'; they were
ReplyDeletebeyond that - they were genuinely amongst the greatest players of all
time. Gerrard was once world class (an accolade which is fleeting),
watch the Champs League finals of 2005 when he played almost every
position as if he were the greatest at it. Or the 2007 final where he
was again amazing (and there were many, many more games like these - not
just the two). No, Gerrard can never be compared to Mardonna or Zidane;
but then again there are less than 5 people ever who could be compared
to Maradonna and maybe about 25 who could ever be compared to Zidane.
Please remember, we've been lucky to have such a great home grown player
who has given us so many memories and wins when we haven't deserved them. He's one of the only
players to have scored in the League Cup final, the FA Cup final, the
UEFA Cup final and the European Cup final. That's a big game player
right there!!!
You have to nullify the numerical advantage the opposition have in central midfield. The formation we used had no chance of doing that. That was the main problem behind the Pirlo problem. It seemed like the strikers, whether it be Rooney, Carroll/Welbeck were taking it in turns to drop deep into marking a 'zone' (Pirlo wasn't always in this zone, as he sometimes switched with the likes of De Rossi or Marchisio), rather than deliberately looking to be on Pirlo's case constantly i.e. man marking.
ReplyDeleteStevie G has had couple of moments where he drifted out wide in the tournament and did some hollywood stuff that people get excited by and think he has been world class bla bla bla but in relation to where he (and Parker) was supposed to be and what he was supposed to do (when in possession) which was help the team transition from defence to attack from central midfield and help the side retain possession, he was simply not good enough. But its no surprise, as he isn't cut to be a two-man central midfield player on the international stage as he doesn't have the simplicity and subtlety to recycle possession in the way that is required at that level , although me thinks England will carry this on for another two years. Great(!). It is a collective problem, the problem with possession but the tone is set by the central midfield. Parker and Gerrard were inept in that regard. If Hodgson does persist with Gerrard (which he will do as he is set to remain captain), I hope he either uses him behind the front striker or on the right but Hodgson is, annoyingly, a fan of the prehistoric 4-4-2 formation. Gerrard's saving grace is the few hollywood moments he has had in the tournament and the fact that none of the players put in great performances has meant that he has earned some browning points in the public eye.
England relative to population & wealth still worst footballing nation on earth. Continued lack of technique = embarrassing.Evidence was apparent these Euro’s. Outplayed by France and Ukraine in the group stages, England gave a reasonable impression of a Greece or Switzerland at best. Pathetic and most importantly unlikely to change until the country makes massive changes at the youth level.Compare and contrast with Germany. Since 2000 when Germans failed at Euro’s in 2000 they have spent 80/90 million Euro’s per year on youth development, coaching and facilities. England despite wealth of EPL have done virtually nothing.The EPL’s TV rights are now worth over 1 Billion Pounds per year (including overseas revenue). Where is the visionary stating the obvious? Some of that money has to be channeled into a complete re-organisation of the game at the grass-roots level.England’s best hope is that a technically competent player like Jack Wilshere becomes the rule and not the exception in ten plus years time. It is possible. 10-12 years ago it looked like the footballing world had caught up with Germany. (Every team displayed the qualities of organisation and strength and stamina in which Germany had excelled for a generation.) Look at them now. Were it not for an incredible Spain they’d be right back at the top.
ReplyDeleteThere is no question that at this moment in time (and perhaps for the very foreseeable future) the England set up has not been designed to 'keep ball'. It may be because we just can't physically do it or it may be more down to how we are mentally conditioned to play the game at international level?
ReplyDeleteI believe we DO have the players who possess the technical ability to 'keep ball' much in the same way as the Italians, Germans & Spanish......but it's not been the style of ANY English manager EVER! Moreover, the 2 stand out teams of the tournament - Germany & Spain - share one key advantage...in both cases 50% (if not more) of their outfield players play for the same club side. That create a massive advantage throughout a competition. England has at best 3 players from one club and at most only 2 outfield players from the same club. And as we all know, this is down to the simple fact that of all the major football leagues in the world, the Premiership boasts the most non-English first team players. Furthermore, the youth development in the UK is approx 15yrs behind that of Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland and Portugal. But over the past 10yrs there has been a massive improvement at grass roots level so it's fair to say that over the next 5yrs we should start to see many more technically gifted English players making Premiership first teams. And due to the new UEFA rulings, this has HAD to happen.So my prediction is, you take a coach in the style of a Guardiola and give them the job to manage England after the next World Cup and I believe come 2018 we will see a VERY different style of football from our national team.It is only a matter of time!
I'm not just talking about one match - IMO, a player cannot be considered World Class unless he has dominated at all three levels of football: Domestic, European and World. Gerrard is a superb Domestic/European footballer, but he has *never* dominated a game/tournament in an England shirt, and only the world class players do it on the world stage.
ReplyDeleteInternational football is the highest level of football, and the most difficult to dominate. There's a whole new level of pressure, and only those with the right mentality can succeed. World class footballers have the ability AND the mentality to make a difference at the highest level, and Gerrard - as good as he is - has never scaled the heights for England, thus he is not world class.
It has to be difficult to achieve world class status otherwise what's the point?
Gerrard is not a player who dominates the midfield, he is a player who shows regular flashes of brilliance but has never been tactically astute enough to position himself to control a game.
ReplyDeleteIn the big matches he gets struck by nerves and even though he does still show the flashes of greatness in big matches it is noticeable that his body ceases up due to the big game tension resulting in cramp. The FA cup final against West Ham 90th minute and last night in the 70th minute are examples amongst others of his desire to do well prohibiting him physically. According to many sports scientists cramp in normal time usually occurs through tension/stress. This intense desire to perform in "battle" can produce a fight, flight or freeze response from most footballers. In the big games Gerrard produces all three! which is quite extraordinary in itself.
England played like they were being managed by Gerrard Houllier which is precisely why Gerrard has been able to show an improved form for England. Positionally Gerrard was never asked to mix it up near the center circle as he was always positioned in front of the back four alongside Didi Parker every time England lost the ball. When England lost the ball he knew exactly where he needed to be positioned....easy. If England had played a more expansive game Gerrard would have been positionally lost when we were not in possession. To his credit he was only exposed once when he he failed to close down "me against the world" Nasri's equaliser as a result of dropping to deep into the box.
* I've always thought hunch back Ashley Young is way overrated. I would have played Downing over him any day based on the form he showed. Martin O'neil thinks Young has the same technical ability as Messi.....I think he doesn't.
* Terry, I'm looking forward to your big day in COURT son. Hopefully outrage fatigue hasn't kicked in by then.
* Rooney looked fat and short of match fitness. What ever fatty did on his holidays he didn't have one eye on the Euros that's for sure. I think the word for Rooney on this occasion is unprofessional as he IS still a good player.
* England missed a trick. They should have played the formation Cappello Stumbled on. The 4-3-3 with two wide men flanking a centre forward was always the way to go. England looked surprisingly good playing this way in Cappello's latter games and may have given them more control and attacking options against the Italians.
*Over the next few weeks those dreaded two words will spring up everywhere....AGAIN......Grass roots. It will be grass roots coaching this, and grass roots coaching that, and we have to re-educate at....you guessed it....grass roots. The premier league is alien to any other league in the world and English fans like it that way. Fans want to be entertained, even at Christmas. With great entertainment comes zero success.
But who cares!! I don't support England anyway!!!
Jamie. Would be interested to know which, if any, Liverpool players you think have been international class over the last 10 years?
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of that.
ReplyDeleteHe did ALL of his best work out wide. He constantly pulls wide but dislikes starting there....strange.
Your last paragraph was spot on - players like Rooney look great against mediocre opposition in England but are out of their depth when they come up against top quality defenders. Rooney is hugely overrated. If Italy had a striker worthy of the name they would have won 3 - 0. England supporters - just like LFC supporters - ALWAYS overrate their side. In fact, the England team is terribly ordinary and Welbeck is simply another Emile Heskey. Yes, he really is that useless.
ReplyDeleteYes, Gerrard was by no means the worst. In fact, he was one of the best. However, we have to face the fact that he is on the slide and has been for a while. He carried Liverpool for ages and the strain is showing more and more.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, he was never likely to achieve world status playing for England, was he? Let's admit he was a great player, scored some terrific goals and just realise he isn't quite able to produce miracles any more.
ReplyDeleteTypically arrogant , pompous English propaganda .
ReplyDeleteYes I know Hansen isnt English but the English don't pay for a dog & then bark themselves .
Given the circumstances surrounding his appointment & the standard
of player in his squad I thought Hodgson done a pretty good job with
England this summer .
Now back to English arrogance ...
Italy were very good on the night .
Basically they played with 10 men against England & like we have
seen on so many different occasions 10 men can prove harder to break
down than 11 men .
How can I say Italy played with 10 men ?
Anyone who seen the game could see how atrocious Balotelli was .
I have to say he is the worst player I have ever seen playing Centre Forward at a Euro finals , ever .
Cassano was casting pearls before swine all night long , jinking &
jiving here there & everywhere delivering clever wee balls into very
dangerous areas but the gormless Balotelli musta been imagining
tomorrows tabloid headlines because he sure as hell wasn't reading the
game !
Perhaps a drugs test is in order ?
Pirlo was good on the night too but I'm afraid I didn't notice him being quite as good as some people are trying to make out .
He used the ball very well , was tactically spot on & lead those
around him well but I have seen him & others perform better , which
is a testament to the English midfield .
However ...
What a masterful penalty he took !
Man Oh Man !
That is the stuff of Football legend .
When he scored that he scored two goals .
Italy were rocked & England were starting to believe .
Italy needed something & by God Pirlo stepped up , said "I Ama Tha
Man !" & done something very few on the planet could do in those
circumstances & with that wee moment of composure under pressure ,
that wee moment of technical excellence & match experience he turned
the whole course of events on its head , he lifted his team , he done
more than could have been asked of him & he got his & his
country's reward .
Fantastic moment in sport , fantastic moment in Football & a
fantastic moment in his career , well done Pirlo , we will be talking
about that magic moment 50 years from now & saying then as we are
now ...
Bravo Pirlo !
Germany had better be the Germany they have been threatening to be to
get past this typically composed , stubborn Italian side but only if
Italy can manage to find a centre forward clever enough to capitalize
upon Cassanos creative quality in the final 3'rd , they will need all
guns blazing against the Germans .
If Germany put them away with the aplomb they are capable of then I
think we can count ourselves among those lucky enough to have witnessed
yet another of the Legendary trophy winning German teams .
Final Word on England ?
Over performed to get out of their group & they know it too no matter what Hansen & his like try to tell us .
test , testing
ReplyDeleteI know you hate him because he doesn't play for your clubs.don't worry,i used to hate drogba rooney & christiano too.its just a part of growing up!had young & cole scored their penalties,would u b criticising gerrard?blame silly penalty takers lyk those & stop being jerlousy of the captian!!
ReplyDeleteI know you hate Liverpool fc my friend.should he have taken all the penalties to justify his performance??
ReplyDeletewhy are my comments being held for so long in the censorship dungeon ?
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no profanity in them
I didn't say Gerrard isn't international class - he undoubtedly is; he just isn't (IMO) world class. LFC have had dozens of international class players in the last 10 years but world class? Very few:
ReplyDeleteXabi Alonso: Has excelled in all three levels of football (Domestic, European and World). Integral to Spain's ongoing success. World and European champion.
Sami Hyypia: Without doubt, a world class defender. Did the business for LFC in the league and Europe, and superb also for Finland. It's a matter of context though - you have to consider the level of the international team and consider the best it can hope to achieve. Finland do not have the quality to compete at major tournaments, but within their (limited) sphere of achievement, Hyypia has performed brilliantly.
Fernando Torres: Proved his worth for Liverpool both domestically and in Europe, and has been excellent for Spain, specifically WC 2006 qualifying (7 goals in 11 games), and Euro 2008 (scored the winning goal). Torres has slipped out of world class status over the last couple of years, but during his Liverpool years, he was deserving of the label.
Jari Litmanen Undoubtedly world class. Excelled at all three levels of football.
Dietmar Hamann Did the business domestically, in Europe (Who can forget his performance in the CL final in 2005), and for Germany on the international stage.
In my view, no other LFC players over the last 10 years are deserving of the 'world class' label, and that includes Gerrard.
If you can't perform and make a difference on the world stage, you can't be world class.
Hi Adam - I didn't say Gerrard isn't international class - he undoubtedly is; he just isn't (IMO) world class. LFC have had dozens of international class players in the last 10 years but world class? Very few:
ReplyDeleteXabi Alonso: Has excelled in all three levels of football (Domestic, European and World). Integral to Spain's ongoing success. World and European champion.
Sami Hyypia: Without doubt, a world class defender. Did the business for LFC in the league and Europe, and superb also for Finland. It's a matter of context though - you have to consider the level of the international team and consider the best it can hope to achieve. Finland do not have the quality to compete at major tournaments, but within their (limited) sphere of achievement, Hyypia has performed brilliantly.
Fernando Torres: Proved his worth for Liverpool both domestically and in Europe, and has been excellent for Spain, specifically WC 2006 qualifying (7 goals in 11 games), and Euro 2008 (scored the winning goal). Torres has slipped out of world class status over the last couple of years, but during his Liverpool years, he was deserving of the label.
Jari Litmanen Undoubtedly world class. Excelled at all three levels of football.
Dietmar Hamann Did the business domestically, in Europe (Who can forget his performance in the CL final in 2005), and for Germany on the international stage.
In my view, no other LFC players over the last 10 years are deserving of the 'world class' label, and that includes Gerrard.
If you can't perform and make a difference on the world stage, you can't be world class.
Word filter. There's no censorship; certain words/phrases get flagged and held to stop trolls/spam. Happens to my posts too.
ReplyDeleteHave IQ's dropped here?
ReplyDeleteJaime, You are blaming the wrong people here.
Roy's archaic belief in 4-4-2 cost England. We were overwhelmed and undermanned
in centre midfield, no pressing, no clue how to change the game during the
match, negative counter attacking - just the same when he was at Liverpool and
that's why the Kop called for him to be fired!
To blame Gerrard and Parker for being up against 3 players just shows the same lack of tactical acumen and understanding of the game as demonstrated by Hodgson last night and Capello in South Africa.
Can you imagine that happening under your mate Benitez?
It was apparent from the 25th minute that Pirlo was running the show and all Roy had to do was match the Italian formation which was 4-3-1-2 but he fatally lacked imagination and courage and therefore persisted with what he knows.
It was a management failure to proactively adapt the tactics to the situation that presented itself.
Tell em bro!just how many free kicks did he supply in the box?but his co-players were too lazy to finish em!!ask torres how good gerrard is at supplying quality deliveries!!
ReplyDeleteBlaming the formation is just another easy excuse. What about the last 10 years of international football? Gerrard has never excelled at International level, even when he's played in his supposed best role. Truly world class players rise above obstacles and show their quality.
ReplyDeleteIf Gerrard was world class, he would've kept possession well against Italy; he would've passed better; he would've created attacks consistently; he would've grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and imposed himself. In other words, he would've played like Pirlo.
He didn't, and he never has.
Gerrard was at his peak thanks to Rafael Benitez and since Rafa left he has never hit the same heights again...
ReplyDeleteBrazil '2014
ReplyDeleteGoalkeepers: Hart, Ruddy, Carson
Defenders: G.Johnson, Walker, Cahill, Lescott, Jones, Smalling, Cole, Baines
Midfielders: Gerrard, Wilshere, Cleverley, Rodwell, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott, Young, Adam Johnson
Attackers: Rooney, Welbeck, Carroll, Sturridge
I wonder if this team will do any better.
We need to improve in MF that is for sure.
English players are not encouraged to keep the ball and pass and move like most of their rivals.
ReplyDeleteAs a kid in Dublin, athleticism, strength, speed, height, aggressive tackling were all valued way ahead of football intelligence and passing ability - I assume Britain is the same.
We play a different sport altogether in comparison and as such it is unfair to criticise our players for doing exactly what they have been encouraged to do since childhood. It's time to adjust the way we coach kids, or better still don't coach them. Over coaching at an early age removes all natural talent.
But this was said 15 years ago
Great to see Young and Rooney being refused their default free kicks for blatant dives.
Referees have been a revelation at this tournament. Can't bear thoughts of return of the all diving Prem League
Totally agree, Simon. Refereeing has been outstanding, and it was indeed sweet to see Rooney and Young dive to no avail.
ReplyDeletethe English national team are paying the price for the success of the EPL.
ReplyDeleteTeams are now impatient for instant success and therefore young talent is overlooked for overseas players, many of whom are just mercenaries.
Restrict the overseas players and the team will improve if you dont the decline will continue. But how can you do that with EC nationals having a right to work here for starters. The England cricket team has become more succesful because of the restrictions on the overseas players and if England want to improve their chances at football they need to do something about it or the Raheem Sterlings and Ross Barkleys of the world will never flourish.
England will never be the best team even if you did this but at least we wouldnt have the woeful depthless squad we currently have and we would always be capable on our day of beating anyone. Now we have no chance of that.
IMO, Pirlo is world class and same goes to Stevie. Pirlo extremely control the whole game. yes. i agree. but the situation is different. He is comfortably holding the possession with attacking minded Italians (which controlled the entire field) and differ to Hodgson's tactics, I could see they are very discipline in defending, a very very defensive tactics. And hoping to take advantage with counter attacks which they failed to do it.
ReplyDeleteAbout the status of Steven Gerrard, for me he is undoubtedly a world class player. Look how other players (outside England) judge him, a player, professional and knows football/soccer than someone trying to be so knowledgable saying this and that. Respectful player like stevie deserve something better than what he received from this national team. A loyal servant for the country despite witnessing the armband and position issue (who should be play as CM) since long time ago. And again it is stevie (play as RM/DM/LM) serve the country and for me, he is world class for conquering the Midfield position (CM,AM,DM,RM,LM) .
In the game, Gerrard put so much effort on defending and sometimes with desire to attack even it failed. Passing statistics shows that Pirlo is better than Gerrard n Parker (combined) in the game. YES, but why? because they are defending (and not in possession). I think it is the game play that has been set up before the game. And for me they are doing really world class defending (if it is their game play).
how about Lionel Messi. Is he a world class player? NO from Jaimie i guess. Isn'it Jaimie? because he cant and still cant to copy his performances in Barca with his national team and failed to give an impact untill lately, a win over Brazil in a friendly. :D why? what happen with him? Football is not an individual games.
Just an opinion. ;)
Lol this is ur definition of a world class player? gerrard was just fabulous against milan.. no one can do what he did that night in istanbul.. against a team composed with dida nesta maldini stam cafu gatuso kaka pilo shevdhenko crespo.. played as defensive ofensive midfielder, suport baros in front and scored that first goal..and dominated eveywhere on that pitch in the second half and even played as right back whn serginho came in. not even gatuso could deal with him.. this is my definition of a world class player. he did it against great teams like real madrid inter milan barcelona chelsea n united as well.. he is most complete player at his best. ive read ur previous articles on gerrard before.. but uve deleted all of them
ReplyDeletethats why Ashley Young missed his penalty as he was confused as he didnt dive to get it
ReplyDeleteRoss Barkley and Raheem Sterling should be in that squad by then
ReplyDeleteThat fella called George Best wasn't to shabby was he.... World class would you say?
ReplyDeleteEngland players r all world class. All they needed was to sack an average mngr in Capello and appoint an world class English mngr in R Hodgson and that would b it. England would win the tournament.His methods which served him so well for over 36 years and have been translated well from Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax and Swiss national team so nearly served him well last night too. England were never close to win anything anyway but with him in charge now they have no chance at all. I'm just so glad that he ain't Liverpool manager anymore. Good luck England.
ReplyDeleteJaimie shame on you,Alan didnt said exatly that Gerro chased Pirlo all night,he said chasing shadows or something like all others. You always twisting words and paraphrasing whatever you want. Alan didn't said what you wrote because he knows footy better than you. Its cheap from you,but if you like that,ok.. It wasnt SG duty to mark Pirlo neither is Parkers or anyone in England,because they defending space,not man. Pirlo is playng in the hole,playmaker,between lines. But as I saw whenever he or De Rossi came in SG area and were 1 on 1 with him,they kissed the flor. SG and Andrea are different players,both worldclass,so please stop these cheap comparasions if you hold yourself for serious journalist.
ReplyDeleteJamie,to say Gerrard isn't world class shows a real lack of football knowledge and a narrow-minded approach to deciding what makes a player world class. It also ignores the views of other world class players, which is most telling.
ReplyDeleteGerrard is world class despite lacking Alonso's technique and passing range while Alonso's world class despite not having Gerrard's power and goal-scoring ability. Liverpool had a world class midfield whilst the two were together due the complimenting of each other.
Gerrard's problem at national level is that there is no technical player to blend with - same goes for Lampard who played his best stuff next to Deco and Joe Cole (who, funnily enough was Englands most technically gifted player for ages, but limp).
The emergence of Wilshere will come too late for Gerrard, but not others.
Best was never tested on the world stage, so we'll never know if he was genuinely world class. Football during Best's era was far inferior to modern football, so that also needs to be considered. Potentially world class, and in his prime, probably could've mixed it with the best on the world stage, but we'll never know.
ReplyDeleteInternational and world class? What is the difference? International is the world or am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteMessi has been really good for Argentina for the last year or so. Certainly didn't start with that Brazil game. He generally makes a impact in nearly every game for them with his playmaking, even if he doesn't score, for over a year now.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't world class defending when you can't control the central midfield battle. Keeping possession is a form of defending too and Gerrard & co were dreadful at that.
And on the world stage Alan Hansen achieved..........what?
ReplyDeleteGerrard has proved on countless occasions throughout his career that he can be placed in that 'world class' bracket and his international record doesn't even have a t bearing on it.
ReplyDeleteHOW CAN YOU DICTATE THE PACE OF A GAME WHEN THE MANAGER ASKS YOU TO PLAY WITHOUT THE BALL!??
It's ridiculous to suggest a player can dictate a game when the team is in such a rigid formation that the only out ball is either a 5 yard pass sideways or long kick up top to a striker who has no chance of holding the ball for over 2 seconds.
You can't expect Gerrard to be runnning all over place, spraying defence splitting passes and smashing in 30yrds when the team is never in a position to offer in the opportunity to do so?
Next thing you know the media and people like you would be slaughtering him for tactical indiscipline and not playing for the manager.
You know your football Jamie but have no idea about the game.
Perhaps if he had players around him that these "greats" did/have then who knows.
ReplyDeleteDeco was hardly at Chelsea for long and for the period he was there, he didn't even start many games in the league (starting 17 league games was his highest amount in a season for Chelsea, hardly someone Lampard was reliant on). Lampard played his best stuff in a central midfield that him, Makalele and Essien. Chelsea were known for their powerful style, rather than their technical style, and they were still one of the best all time PL sides.
ReplyDeleteRe: 2005 final. He was hardly the 'greatest' in the first half was he. It took Didi to add bit of tactical discipline to the midfield, which allowed Gerrard carte blanche to do what he did.
ReplyDeleteNice one Kanwar! Your lack of football knowlege is masked by deleting inteligent readers posts. Congrat
ReplyDeleteKlose is international class but wouldn't say he was world class.
ReplyDeleteLack of football knowledge? Nonsense. Just because other players say someone is world class doesn't make it so. The test I've proposed is not narrow-minded - it is to you because you disagree with it, but objectively, it is very fair.
ReplyDeleteWorld class suggests a player at the very top of their game, but how can a player be world class if he has never performed at the highest level of football? It makes no sense at all.
Would you call a tennis player who's never won a major world class? Would you call Rugby player who also put in average performances in the world cup/5 nations world class? Of course not. Why is it any different for football.
The hype over alleged world class players is ridiculous, and it's perpetuated by fans who throw the label around so much that it loses meaning.
In order to be truly world class you have to *prove it* - Gerrard has never excelled at International level; he's had countless opportunities to prove his world class ability at various tournaments and he has never done it.
How on earth can a player be 'world class' if they've never performed on the world stage?
International tournament football is the highest, most mentally demanding level of football, and only the very best have the composure and attitude to consistently excel, dominate games, and drive their teams to victory.
Gerrard is not in that league; he never has been, and never will be, and that means (IMO) he is not world class.
Of course there's a major difference. Joleon Lescott is international class; Theo Walcott is international class, but neither player is world class (!) International class just means you're good enough to play for a national team. World class is someone who excels and dominates at all three levels of football: domestic, European and international tournaments (including qualifying)
ReplyDeleteEnglish football has been in a state of decline for a long time now, it wouldn't matter IMO if you put Pirlo in the side instead of Gerrard he would struggle to PROVE his worth.....
ReplyDeleteThe game against Sweden where we came back from 2-1 down was a team inspired by their captain.............
Sweden may not be the worlds elite but still it was a quality performance from Gerrard IMO, lets fac e the facts that players like Ashley Young offered little to nothing on the left, Milner on the right.....and no one up front who could hold the ball up (until Carroll came on...) AND a defence that seemed intent on playing as deep as they could with a certain John Terry leading the line.....
VERY difficult IMO for ANY player to be expected to DOMINATE a game with a bunch of chancers and big Ego's all protecting their own interests....afterall we are the "self pres-er-vation soci-ety"....
All too often over the years i have cringed at how Gerrard and Carra have had to endure playing for their country when it usually has resulted in either injuries or a blow to their confidence......
Credit to Gerrard for trying, i would have have quit that scene and left it for the maggots like Terry and Lampard to milk it to boost their self interests whilst delivering fcuk all on the world stage....
As a LFC supporter i am proud of Stevie for helping England to survive the group stage and make it to a quarter final, whether you think he is World Class or not he is the best we have.......and without him we would have limped lamely out of the competition like France....
Well done Stevie.
LEGEND.
YNWA.
So Ryan Giggs isn't world class?
ReplyDeletePotentially world class, but not genuine world class. Giggs has performed at domestic and European level, but what has he done for Wales? Has he inspired the team to qualify for a major tournament? No. Outside of the UK, I imagine Giggs would not be considered WC by the majority fans. In 20-30 years, will he good mentioned alongside the likes of Zidane, Platini, Cruyff, or even Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo? No (IMO).
ReplyDeleteWell said Stella, it was a pitiful rejoinder. Perhaps if Gerrard and Parker had Milner central to track Pirlo - we might have shown more...but the TACTICS employed didn't allow us to pressurise the Italians who were better. It was in true Hodgson style all about 2 banks of four.
ReplyDeleteTo blame our players when all the manager had to do was go like for like in central midfield is simply deluded.
As a Liverpool supporter I thought you would recognise Hodgson's fingerprints all over what was a debacle waiting to happen. Let me explain:
In 2010 England were decimated by Germany playing 4-4-2.
In 2011 Barcelona murdered Utd who played 4-4-2.
Yesterday Italy totally out thought and outplayed England playing 4-4-2.
Do you see any co-incidence? 4-4-2 is totally outdated at international level and has been since Brazil won the World Cup in 1994...
Can you imagine your mate Benitez allowing the game to drift away so cravenly? A totally wasted opportunity.
As the saying goes those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it...
Players such as Figo, Batistuta, Raul, Ian Rush, Daglish, Drogba, Etto, Hagi, De Stephano, Cantona, C Ronaldo, Guillt (the lost goes on) are all 'world class' in there own right 'players yet have acheived nothing on the world stage. How can Cryuff and Eusebio be considerd world class but never deliver any major honours for there respective teams? If they where by your definition world class surely they would have been able to produce the displays to get them all the way because world class players produce each and every time they play don't they?
ReplyDeleteIMO World class is being able to get into any top club or international teams starting 11. Gerrard is not up to it now but undoubltey was in his peak years.
You don't just have to win tournaments on the world stage; it;s about having a specific, measurable impact on your country's success at major tournaments.
ReplyDeleteIt's also about context. Everything is relative, which allows players from inferior international teams to be considered world class. I'll use Shevchenko as an example:
* Shevchenko is definitely world class. He produced on the domestic and European fronts, but what about international level?
* You have to ask the following question: what is the highest level a team like Ukraine can achieve on the world stage?
* Given then population/level of quality etc, the best they can probably hope for is the group stage of a major tournament, 2nd round/quarter-final at the absolute maximum.
* Then, you look at what the player's impact in achieving those goals.
* In this case, Shevchenko has been absolutely integral to Ukraine's qualification for major tournaments over the last 10 years, and once there, he has scored vital goals.
* Ultimately, if you take away Shevchenko's goals from Ukraine's WC 2006 qualifying campaign, they would not have made the tournament.
* Shevchenko has scored 33 goals in various WC and EC qualifying campaigns for Ukraine, not to mention scoring in World Cups and European Championship finals.
Conclusion: Shevchenko = World Class.
The same thinking applies to the likes of Kenny Dalglish. He was definitely world class because he also did the business for Scotland. Again, but for Dalglish's goals, Scotland would never have qualified for the World Cups in 1978 and 1982. KD is also Scotland's record goalscorer.
England did limp lamely out of the tournament like France (!) Both teams went out at the QF stage, and both teams were outclassed by their respective opposition.
ReplyDeletePoor assessment. Gerrard was England's best player but played out of position yet again. In such, we negated all his attacking instinct and he wasn't a goal threat the whole tournament. Gerrard is not a Pirlo typle player... just as Pirlo can't do the things Gerrard does well. Hodgson's big mistake was to persist with the awful Milner and Young through all the games and rely on the return of Rooney, which only disrupted the team and made it worse. Parker and Gerrard were overrun because of our poor wide men... and Rooney not tracking back to pick up Pirlo. England won't win anything until they produce a natural playmaker in midfield (or two) and learn to keep the ball. Hodgson deserves some praise for working within time and talent constraints... but the dogged 442 with Milner, Young, and Rooney underperforming was just a killer.
ReplyDeleteit is a disgrace to say that about gerrard . your not a LFC fan , your a critic jamie . shame on you .
ReplyDeleteI dont know what game you watched Chan but in the game me & the rest of the world seen Italy played a basic 4 4 2 against Englands 4 4 2 so I fail to see what supposed numerical advantage they had other than the way they passed & worked for each other .
ReplyDeleteAlso as for Gerrard I hope England do drop him , he is more than you clowns deserve .
Players like Wellbeck , Young , Lesscot , Milner & Parker started that game & you complain about Gerrards performance ?
I hope Hodgson reads this & takes yer advice coz I love it when England fail to qualify for tournaments .
I love Graham Taylor !
If I had my way he would still be England manager & Carlton Palmer would still be centre Midfield with Geoff Thomas !
Rule Britania My A$$ !
With the facility's & options you have available you are a laughing stock & got more than you deserved from that tournament .
I feel the Shevshenko argument was an easy one and can only wish I had the time to give you a more detailed response.
ReplyDeleteThe players you mentioned in your 1st response are extrodinary talents and can only be described as 'footballing gods' rather than world class.
Shevshenko cannot mix in the same company as such greats. He is a level lower which is where you will find Stevie amongst others mentioned.
Interesting view, as Zidane called Gerrard the world's best.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/4984191/Liverpools-Steven-Gerrard-hailed-as-worlds-best-player-by-Zinedine-Zidane.html but what would Zidane who I believe you called world class know...
ReplyDeleteKlose has over 15 goals in World Cup & European Championship tournament final stages .
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell does a player have to do to be considered "World Class" ?
Cartwheels ?
Of his kind Klose is one of the best of all time let alone in the world right now .
Klinsman at his best may have been slightly more mercurial than Klose is but when the pressure is on very few can compare to Klose when its do or die .
World class ?
There isnt a defence on the planet who would want to face him in a Semi Final or a Final .
Thats World Class in my book .
Everyone is entitled to their view, and Zidane's opinion is as valid as anyone's. I personally have a different view though; that doesn't mean I'm right, it's just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI would rather form my own view than just constantly reference what other people say about stuff, but that's just me.
Jeez, I'm sorry. Next time, I'll ask you for permission before I have the temerity to express an opinion that differs from the status quo.
ReplyDeleteThe worst players came from Manchester United, Rooney was very poor, Young was even worse and Wellbeck was way out of his depth. The Liverpool players all played very well throughout the tournament, Glen Johnson, Steven Gerrard and Andy Carroll when called upon all delivered. In a rigid 4-4-2 with Hodgson's stamp of conservatism it wasn't surprising that Gerrard didn't venture forward much, i'm so glad he is no longer the manager at Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the youth level thing but Wilshere is hardly Enzo Scifo , he is more Joe Cole .
ReplyDeleteEngland has always produced its share of creative less physical players in midfield & attack ...
Hoddle , Waddle , Barnes , Webb , Redknapp , Beckham , Beardsley , Le Tissier , & although he was a big boy Sheringham too .
England is trying to be all things to all people & in typical Jonny English fashion is getting it constantly wrong .
Last time England looked like a team capable of winning anything was in 1990 .
As for the rest of the world catching Germany for a few years ?
I disagree .
Germany were in transition & believe it or not developed a confidence problem due to the fact they actually failed to play in a final or two during that time !
This is the best German side I have seen since 1996 & once they get a trophy under their belt they are going to go on another march , all over the top of World Football , German style for years on end .
Italy played a diamond shape in midfield, all four midfielders played very narrow which allowed them to flood the central midfield, with the full backs providing the width. Wasn't the typical basic 4-4-2 that is associated with England. If you can't see the difference between the two, than no point discussing it further with you, bless. I'll leave it there. Cheerio.
ReplyDeleteNothing world class about his goalscoring ability at Bayern that is for sure.
ReplyDeleteBut generally, 'world class' is a subjective topic, very much like your 'book', so I'll leave it there as you do bore me with the way you debate things. Cheerio.
Jaimie K thinks he knows it all..why don't you take a managerial job and win a trophy..that's not so easy in the real world eh?? you r just all talk mate..and almost everything you say is rubbish..
ReplyDeleteGerrards without a doubt is Englands only World Class player who WOULD get into any team in the world. As he is England's captain now he is expected to carry on with the heroics to mask all the other inferior players half assed performances. Take Rooney for instance should not have been near the pitch IMO due to his petulance and putting England under pressure for the first two games by not being there because of his ban. The others were all average at best but Stevie was England's best by a country mile. To suggest he is not world class is harsh when England are not a cohesive group of players and he can't be expected to pull them all together like he done previously with Liverpool teams. George Weah World Class, what did Liberia ever do, George Best the same, Kenny Dalglish, could go on forever here on this debate about World class. Aidan's and Maradona had the luxury of great teams around them also not so in Stevies case unfortunately
ReplyDeleteYou are leaving it there because yet again yer bluff has been called & you have no option but to fold & walk away from the table .
ReplyDeleteItaly played a flat 4 4 2 with Cassano dropping deep to collect & create similar to how Rooney was doing for England , no Italian Midfielder was pushing on creating anything for their front two , which in reality was Cassano seeing as Balotelli was so bad .
Gerrard is just one of many problems in that team, squad and in general, English football.
ReplyDeleteOpinions are great. Like 99% of sane people thinking you're a spasticated mentally ill cunt with piss poor syntax and a secret desire to get fucked by old men in Manchester United shirts.
ReplyDeleteYer leaving it there because you cant answer the question asked & you cant defend yer position .
ReplyDeleteHehe, yikes, amazing some of the crap you come out with on this website. Hard to tell whether it is a act sometimes or just how genuinely think, though I guess its the latter with your latest bout of comedy, I mean this post. Even the reputable Zonal Marking website clearly points out that Italy were playing a narrow midfield.
ReplyDeleteMore of a team thing really in my view, not just the central midfield.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say he was world class either. Class player. His close control on the run was outstanding. Macca was as close as we got in the last two decades to his standard. Still ticking off the dates on the calendar since the last time we had a good winger/wide player.
ReplyDeleteIf u're not being used in your best position but being deployed somewhere for the team sake, how can your show your true class ?
ReplyDeleteXavi, Pirlo etc are playing at their best position! Asked CR to play defensivemerle & see if you still consider him out of this world!!
Even what ?
ReplyDeleteWomin what the hell are you trying to tell me ?
That your God of Football has an internet site & I should bow to its doctrine ?
Perhaps if I were a mindless sheep I could give a bleat what you are making noise about but thankfully , I am not & therefore dont .
Italy played only De Rossi & Pirlo in Centre Midfield , England Played Gerrard & Parker opposite them ... Zonal Mark that as reputably as you like .
How do you guys not understand that your problem is so much deeper than the players on the field? Your next stars are at least 10 years away. If you change your football culture. Why? because you DON'T DEVELOP YOUR OWN. You take from other nations then wonder why you don't have a serious national team. Keep taking youth from other countries and you'll have good club teams and crap national teams. Or at the very least put a cap on how many foreigners per team. Jeez, Italy looked like they were playing against kids that put a bus in front of the net.
ReplyDeleteBenitez changed his position in the hope he would fall out of favor with the fans by performing badly , allow Benitez to sell him & strengthen his own position at the club .
ReplyDeleteAnother Political Master stroke by Maneul that backfired & shot him in the foot .
Fact is Gerrard kept Benitez in a job on more than one occassion & the fact is that in the only season that he let Gerrard off the Leash & allowed him to play as a playmaker behind Torres we finished 2'nd .
No other reason .
Between 2005 & 2010 Gerrard was without doubt the very best player on the planet .
Testing , censorship test
ReplyDeleteInternational football is not the highest level of football anymore! Check the estimated (take their age into account) transfer value of each countries squads (except Brazil & Argentina) against the top club teams in the major leagues such as Barca, Bayern, Manchester clubs, Chelsea and the Real Madrids of this world. These clubs have the players in each position and mostly at their prime unlike the national teams.
ReplyDeleteWhy has my reply to the ignorant clueless womin disappeared ?
ReplyDeleteThere was no profanity in it .
Obviously my opinion is being discriminated against here .
Who is responsible ?
Have any of you gutless slime got the integrity to acknowledge yer actions let alone stand by them ?
Conviently you decide to leave it there yet again without defending your position of answering the question asked of you ....
ReplyDeleteAlso conviently , my orininal reply to this comment has disapeared without a trace .
We'll never know if Best was world class??Are you for real?So let me get this straight no matter how good you are at club level if u dont play for abig international team who can win trophies your not world class?You Sir are off your trolley!
ReplyDeleteLets face it, in terms of technical ability, the Spanish, Germans and Italians are better than the English. Gerrard is a good player. His work rate and passes were precise. The players in the English team had to play to what Hodgson wants. Looking at the games, they set out to be defensive with counter attacks. Against Italy, I am not sure that is a good tactic because the Italian defence looks vulnerable.
ReplyDeleteIs Gerrard world class? I am not sure but does it matter. If a player can influence the game and be effective towards the team's performance, then that is all that matters. Was David Beckham world class? Some thinks so but others don't. I personally don't think he is world class but the fact remains that he is extremely effective with his free kicks
Jaimie, by your definition, Messi is not "world-class", since he did not dominate the Copa, World Cup with Argentina. The same goes with Ronaldo.
ReplyDeleteLong live Captain Gerrard!!!
ReplyDeleteJamie I read all your stuff and you talk bollocks you are a rubbish journalist
ReplyDeleteWOOOW. Gerrard is 32, any person who has any knowledge of physical fitness, goes to the gym and has a 6-pack will tell you that he was gassed out. The fact is it all has to do with HODGSON's tactics. He set out every game with a defensive mindset to soak pressure, and that will tire out anyone's legs. Gerrard was never licensed to roam out and attack at a 0-0 game. He had two defensive midfielders in Parker and Gerrard and they were never allowed to be apart from each in FEAR of a Italy attack, and they relied way too much on Rooney dropping into midfield and be that CAM. It might work in the Premier League against inferior players who can't step up to big might Manchester United, but we are talking about the best 11 of Italy. No way in hell is there any fluidity to England's passing game with Hodgson. IT WAS EXACTLY THE SAME STORY WHEN HE TOOK OVER AT LIVERPOOL. We could never pass the ball and the frustration of the fans was spot on.
ReplyDeleteAll three levels of football are Domestic, European and World are they? What did Pele achieve in Europe? Zico? Also, what exactly did Alfredo di Stefano achieve at international level? He was rubbish. George Weah? The list could go on and on. Your criteria is nonsense.
ReplyDeleteSo no one for England in the recent past is International class?
ReplyDeleteIn his peak he would get into any International team in the world HANDS DOWN. Will you still say he isn't world class? Came third in Ballon d'Or, named 3 times in FIFA World XI. Since 2001 he has had FOUR top 10 finishes in the FIFA Player of the Year award. England is never going to be a top team because of the mentality that majority of the England players have. If Gerrard was Spanish he would be causing havoc.
ReplyDeleteGerrard wasn't good (in an attacking sense) but it is unfair to expect him to dictate play in Hodgson's obviously flawed system. The flat 4-4-2 meant that Pirlo effectively had carte blanche as England's outnumbered midfied chased ghosts.
ReplyDeletePirlo has been protected his whole career and been played in systems that flatter him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and it is a failing of the English mentality that we don't build our teams around players like him.
Back to Gerrard: add in that that neither of England's wingers were a consistent threat (Young has been terrible all tournament, Milner has been workmanlike) and Gerrard's partner was clearly unfit, you're asking a lot of Gerrard to dictate the midfield. Of the forwards in front of him, both lack the natural goal scoring instinct and Rooney wasn't match-fit (or bottled it depending on who you believe). You're asking a player to out perform someone else in spite of worse team mates AND worse tactics.
Also, no one is disputing that he lacks the game intelligence of Pirlo, but being the metronome isn't Gerrard's game- but that is fine, he is a different player to Pirlo.
Also Jaimie, as I've said before, your criteria for judging if someone is 'world class' is a useful way of working out if someone is of that kind of quality but it is too simple. It is like judging a player via a checklist rather than by watching him. With your system you could look at a player's stat sheet and just work out if he is 'world class' and you can never make a judgement of that level of quality without including the less easily measured qualities someone brings to the table. Your system's simplicity and inherent inadequacy can be exposed by the fact that according to your criteria Messi wouldn't be world class due to his lack of international success. You let Dalglish and Sheva off because they have done well considering their relative expectations internationally but there is no such excuse playing for Argentina. That is just one example and there are obviously others.
Markus Babbel deserves a mention -
ReplyDeleteBundesliga x4
German domestic trophies x5
FA Cup
League Cup
UEFA Cup x2
European Cup runner-up
Euro 96 winner
International success, club success in two different countries in various competitions (domestic and European).
I think, much as it plains me to say it, Owen was for a time world class too (if you're going by clearly defined contribution, as I know you like to). Ballon D'or winner with Liverpool and very consistent goal scorer for England in his heyday.
Hans Downe was a good club player in the German league but DEFINATELY not world class!
ReplyDeleteYou are a joke. How do you claim to be LFC fan is just laughable. Steven Gerrard IS 'world class', ask Zidane himself. He was one of the best midfielders in the world couple of years back. He was by far the best in England...but for him to be consistently performing at International stage was difficult due to 2 reasons. He is world class as Attacking Midfielder and great as Central/Holding/Defensive midfielder. He almost always had an 'average' international team to play with. Ask any manager in the world whether if Stevie G is world class and you will get your answer. Your opinion about him is ridiculously one dimensional. There are footballing greats whose opinion matters and have more value and substance to it. Get over Stevie G....England's clowns don't deserve him anyway.
ReplyDelete2 reasons:- 1) Hardly ever played at his preferred position
ReplyDelete2) Average international as well as domestic team mates.
3) Put him in better teams and he will be hailed as one of the greats of all time.
Can't care less if SG is world class, International Class or no class. I am happy it is over for England. Most importantly SG is back in one piece and not crocked like always. I say go take a vacation. you need it Stevie. And come back refreshed and energized. Lots of work yet to be done next season. LFC still needs you. SG is Liverpool class. which is more important than any other class mentioned.
ReplyDeleteThat's mah boy.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I think a lot can be attributed to the players they have around them.
ReplyDeleteThere have been many world class players whose home nation's lack of world class teammates has meant not being able to do it at world level. Weah is prime example of such a player who is famous for what he did in club colors. Kompany is belgian.
ReplyDeleteThere is no non-subjective way to determine who is world class so it's probably best to go with other pros who've played with or against him. The pros are unanimous.
Messi hasn't done it at national level yet is world class. The Greeks won the Euros not so long ago without any world class players, as did the Danes who made their finals via the back door.
Champs league is higher quality than the euros. Yet Traore, Smicer, etc have medals. It's all about the blend and being able to unleash a player. England have not had the players to unleash Gerrard.
Makalele. I knew there was another! My point is the same. It's no surprise that Gerrard and Liverpool began to flourish as Lucas came of age. He just doesn't get up the field enough. He should be groomed to do Alonso's role.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe your own bull5hit.
ReplyDeleteJust because Zidane said it doesn't mean its true or that he really meant it....just like when Gerrard said Joe Cole is better than MESSI
ReplyDeleteObviously, I mean Europe or the worldwide equivalent.
ReplyDeleteNO, you have completely misunderstood my point. See the Shevchenko example in one of my previous comments.
ReplyDeleteimo Steve G WAS a world class player unfortunately his all action box to box style of play for LFC has taken its toll on his fitness and he is no longer the player he was. For other bloggers to suggest he should play behind Rooney is nonsense really as he can no longer fulfill that role. Great Player but he is coming to the end of his career. To prolong his playing time for the club he should retire from international football NOW. I have to agree with you JK when have England ever had a Zidane or Maradona I dont think ever. We have had great players with exceptional talent who can do it for one off games Gazza etc but probably Beckham is the only one I can recall who did it game in game out. England have had some great great players but never world class. Find me our Messi !!!!
ReplyDeleteWorld Class Performances !!!!!! you are surley having a laugh. yes Johnson and Terry played very well. Joe Harts antics for the penalties was just bemusing, why wind them up. He has a long long way to go before he could be considered world class. other than those 3 players nobody else turned up, wing play was awful and we will never win anything with a rigid 4 4 2 that is completely inflexible. as with LFC when he managed us. The style of play fits teams with players of average ability. How many of RH Fulham team or WBA ream would make the England Squad (None)
ReplyDeleteAre you being racist Brehon Law. Who do you think you are " Jonny English" I could add more to this but JK would hold it back. You are the most arrogant contributor on this site
ReplyDeleteIf you where to produce a list today of the top 30 players in world football would Klose figure answer NO. Why ? because he is not world class. You seem a little confused about world class players perhaps you need a lie down
ReplyDeleteunforunately Giggs never really showed his undoubted talent at international level. certainly he has a global name and he is undoubtedly a class act
ReplyDeleteDefinately agree with Jaimie's objective approach. Far too many responses here are completely subjective. I've actually devised an equation to accurately calculate world class ranking system as follows:
ReplyDeleteWC = 1.25D + 1.5C + 1.3W (+/- NTQ/2)
where WC = World class ranking
D = Domestic ranking (out of 10) e.g. domestic league form/impact
C = Continental ranking (out of 10) e.g. continental cup club form/impact
W = World ranking (out of 10) e.g. intercontinental national club form/impact
N = National Team Quality which is a bit of fiddle factor to take into account poor quality of a national team (from -5 to +5)
On this basis, players such as shevchenko and giggs come out higher despite their respective national teams being quite poor
Would be interested in your views on this Jaimie?
Basically called the English fans/English public 'clowns' earlier. Racist or not, he is very insulting.
ReplyDeleteGerrard began to flourish when Rafa moved him further up the field and to the right, it had very little to do with Lucas as he was still in football nappies, more to do with Alonso. Gerrard hasn't shown anywhere near the form that he showed when he had Alonso-Masch behind him since they left. So I'm not sure why your placing importance on Lucas, in relation to Gerrard's so-called flourishing form as I wouldn't call his form as 'flourishing' with Lucas (Though I'm not necessarily putting the blame on either Lucas or Gerrard, as could be a number of things).
ReplyDeleteYes, yes, its one big conspiracy attempt by Rafa(!)
ReplyDeleteYawn. Not even someone on RAWK would come out with such nonsense...surely.
good. or how about just dont write that rubbish to start with ? sg not world class my bum . moron
ReplyDeleteor how about just dont write it full stop . sensational headlines for advert revenue
ReplyDeletestop typing nonsense
ReplyDeleteMy Pov;
ReplyDeleteeng need dump most of their so called star player included gerrrard... they cant gel together may b due to various reason...i may thinking why not used 2nd teir player...at least at major tournament they fight for their name...
ps im a big fans of gerrard but be realistic look at whole picture
Hi Jason - great post. It would be interesting to see you apply it to a couple of players so we can see it in operation :-)
ReplyDeleteSorry author, have to disagree with you on Gerrard not being World class. He may have been injured for some time the past long while and is another few years older but he hasn't been played where he would be most effective. In behind the striker. Pirlo excels at what he does from his position, but if you tell him to play on the wing I doubt he'd be able to skin Ashley Cole and track back so well to defend against Cole or Young. That's just one example. It's all relative to position. English teams, with the exception of Barcelona, have been at the height of European football for some time now. I'm not making excuses for Gerrard or any English player, but to say he isn't World class is incorrect in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhat does Pirlo playing on the wing have to do with anything? World class players are generally world class in one position; they've not jacks of all trades, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just because Gerrard can play well in several positions doesn't make him world class; it makes him versatile.
ReplyDeleteDid Zidane play on the wing or in defence? Did Pele? Maradona? Beckenbauer? Xavi? Iniesta? No. Does that mean they're not world class? No.
The idea that a player who can play in several positions s = world class is nonsense. Gerrard is not world class in any position.
How did you decide to weight these Jason?
ReplyDeleteYou're missing my point, Gerrard plays best in behind the striker as you would know being a Liverpool fan. That means if Gerrard played behind the striker on a consistent basis for England and didn't perform like he could for Liverpool from that position then fair enough.
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about being able to play in several positions making a player world class.
Gerrard has played behind the striker for England (during England's Euro 2008 qualifying campaign), and did nothing. Plus, he's been a central midfielder for 90% of his career; it was only under Benitez that he played (briefly) behind the striker. I'm sure the majority of people would say that Gerrard's natural position is CM.
ReplyDeleteIf Gerrard played behind the striker for England on a consistent basis, he still wouldn't be world class (IMO). It's a moot point anyway - we can only judge him on where he has played, and when he's in central midfield, he is not being played out of position.
Good shout JK not sure about Torres though
ReplyDeletewooo
ReplyDeleteFair enough and I respect that opinion, Makele, Pele, Zidane, Benitez, Mourinho, Carragher, Glen Johnson, Xabi Alonso, Hamman and many other have the opinion that Gerrard has been or currently is one of the best in the world (by definition world class).
ReplyDeleteI mean absolutely no disresespect but I have no need to tell you which list Jamie versus UEFA level managers' and players' I would put my backing behind.
No-one had a great first half due to poor tactics and a lack of Didi. From the second half on (and through both periods of extra time) he played as a right winger, false 10, centre mid and right back. So 45 mins was average, then 75 mins were brilliant. Still a great performance and if he hadn't score his goal when he did; would we have not lost belief not long after and dropped our heads? Fair to say he inspired those minutes of madness and ultimately the triumph (I am aware of the others achievements in that match too (Carra and Didi etc)).
ReplyDeleteHere Here!
ReplyDeleteHmm, you must not have watched games before you were born. Bobby Charlton was amazing week in week out at League, European and International level (still England's top scorer). We have never had a Maradonna, but then again who has? He's arguably the greatest player of all time?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteI'm not looking for anyone to back my opinion - you're free to endorse whatever view you like. Just because Pele et al think Gerrard is world class doesn't mean I have to.
ReplyDeleteYou are a divi everyone of the players mentioned above would tell you the best player they've played with is STEVEN GERRARD , and like I mentioned once before anyone who includes Alan Kennedy in an all time LFC 11 isn't qualified to judge or rate players , likewise anyone who deems STEVEN GERRARD not to be world class isn't qualified to judge or rate players FACT , " game intelligence " did you think that phrase up all by yourself
ReplyDeleteThis is indeed a great post, I too am interested in seeing this applied to a few players. From your calculations perhaps you could give us some values for identified world class players? A benchmark perhaps. That would be very useful. What ranking does Gerrard attain?
ReplyDeleteHi Jaimie. I've plugged some data into the system. In terms of IRD (individual relative differential), Gerrard compares pretty well to some other established internationals (e.g. Pirlo and Lahm) with Alonso, Ronaldo and Messi topping the list. Scratching my head thinking why Gerrard gets such a high rating. It may be a result of interactive coefficients (i.e. individual factors are not strictly independent). What do you think Jaimie? Would value your input on whether I should persevere with this more objective approach?
ReplyDeleteVery very interesting indeed, So I'm right in assuming Gerrard benefits from the interactive coefficients in increasing his overall score. Could you give us an example of how those individual factors have impacted on Gerrard's ranking?
ReplyDeleteRichie. I'm currently working with a statistician and looking to develop this system further so can't go into too much detail. The equation outlined above is just one part of a more complex multi-regression framework. Obviously for IPR reasons are can't simply give the formulae away. I am sure you'll understand. If you'd like to give me a player you're interested in then I can plug their details into the database and give you an idea of their WC ranking.
ReplyDeleteIt was a great second half+ performance. His first half was typical of a Stevie G the box-to-box player in a two-man central midfield, full of tactical indiscipline. Poor tactics or not, he was rubbish in the first half, along with Xabi, more than anyone else for me. Football starts from 0 and most teams would be dead and buried by half time but luckily for us, it turned out great, thanks to big inspirational improvement from Gerrard and the wise head of Didi. That game showed the best and worse of the so-called complete midfielder that is Gerrard.
ReplyDeleteGylfi Sigurdsson, Jay Spearing, Pepe Reina, Lucas and Andy Carroll... That would be very useful, thank you.
ReplyDeleteGerrard simply was world class as an attacking midfielder.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately he's been a victim of his versatility, and has spent years of his international career playing a withdrawn role in central midfield, and out on the left (after Scholes retired) to make way for Lampard. At club level he was clearly right up there with the very best as a central midfielder in his earlier years, and then provided the stats to back up his performances when given the freer roles afforded to his counterparts throughout their careers.
I guess it really is a case of "what have you done for me lately" when looking at the careers of some players...
Jay Spearing comes up as an ID (insufficient data) so can't compute a ranking i'm afraid. Pepe Reina - the system doesn't really work for goalkeepers at the moment. This is something we're working on for the next version though so hold tight! As for Sigurdsson - very interesting one. He's currently appearing within the 'mid quartile' (that's middle range for non statisticians). HOWEVER, the system also calculates direction of travel and he's lighting up the dashboard on this measurement (statistically significant at 95% level). Essentially the system is suggesting that this guy is going places and if he continues to improve at the current rate then he's likely to reach world class level (upper quartile) by 2014. The system is actually projecting September 2014 but given the the inherent error levels within the framework, I'd ignore the month and simply go with the year. Sorry for getting a bit 'statistical'. Does that make sense Richie? Don't worry. We'll be producing an 'idiot's guide' if we go public.
ReplyDeleteTommy - see replies to Richie77 below for further details on the system
ReplyDeleteVery useful indeed, And our Andy? Lucas? Can you give any values? Meaningless to us perhaps but it would be useful to see Messi at 10.3, Gerrard at 8 etc... Many thanks again...
ReplyDeleteRichie. I don't think you need my system to tell you Andy isn't world class. Please don't use this site to waste my time and most importantly Jaimie's time. He set this site up in good faith and suggesting Andy C is world class just undermines all the effort and hard work we've all put in. Serious requests only please.
ReplyDeleteContinued from replies by JasonO to Richie 77 above...
ReplyDeleteHaving indulged your theories / modelling and exchanged a few posts, I was just trying to see things from a laymens perspective so I'm sorry if I have in some way insulted your work! So, I'll ask again, Can we see in a format as below values for players giving us a visual representation of the model. I put Andy Carroll in there as it would be good to see the values for players we have at our club... Lets take your examples and hopefully my requests and work from there...
Messi 100.3
Ronaldo 96.4
Alonso 88.7
Pirlo 88.5
Gerrard 68.7
Lahm 67
Lucas 64
Carroll 44 etc........
Thanks for the apology Richie. Perhaps I was a little over the top. The dog just knocked over my bowl of super noodles so was a little narked! Unfortunately the system doesn't give ranks in a conventional sense. It works using a percentile ranking methodology. Anyway I don't want to give too much away at this stage so lets just leave it for now eh?
ReplyDeleteMichael Owen, and possibly David Beckham. That's it IMO.
ReplyDeleteGood shout re Babbel. Also agree about Owen - he definitely performed at all three levels.
ReplyDeleteHey Jason - I think you should definitely persist with your objective system. Such analysis is endlessly interesting, and makes for an valid counterpoint to the subjective school of player analysis.
ReplyDeleteIf you ever want to publish an article presenting your system, just let me know :-)
Just finished watching Liverpool v Real Madrid on LFC TV. The second match at home. Gerrard was fantastic; hardly put a foot wrong. He then went on to play Utd in the next match and scored as part of the 4 goal onslaught. Name me another 2 midlfielders at LFC ever who have scored more than 20 goals a season? I can only think on Barnes. And Gerrard did it more then twice too!!!
ReplyDeleteChan, I'm not sure what your expectation levels are, but if you're refering to Gerrard as a 'so called complete midfielder' then I can only assume that a) you're not a Liverpool fan (and I do mean that you're Utd or Everton Troll, not saying you're not a true fan), or b) your expectation levels are so high, you can't see that Gerrard is potentially the greatest midfielder that Liverpool has ever had. And if that's the case, then Christ, what is good enough for you? Believe me, I've watched Souness, Molby, McMahan and Barnes in the flesh, and let me tell you; Gerrard honestly is their equal!!!
sorry Peter I have watched Bobby Charlton great player, world class but best ever player ........surely that must be Pele.
ReplyDeleteFowler was imo a better player than owen but was fowler world class? no i dont think he was so therefore owen couldnt have been. Now Ian Rush was defo World Class
ReplyDeleteMidfielders who've scored 20+ goals a season for LFC:
ReplyDelete* Terry McDermott (twice)
* Billy Liddell (numerous times)
* Jan Molby
* John Barnes
* Steven Gerrard (Twice)
Yes Im being racist because as everyone knows the English are , among other things , a race .
ReplyDeleteThe fact they happen to be a race of carbon based entity's from outer space is another story for another day .
Insulting or not CoCo tha clown is worried sick about his job security when you lot are bunching up pretending to have valid opinions on stuff .
ReplyDeleteStop worrying about my needs mother !
ReplyDeleteI'm playing on my computer !
Sorry bout that LFCSense , my dear old mum is pesterin me , fretting about this & that tha way old womin do .
Would Klose be in my top 30 centre forwards on the planet ?
Yes he would , he would be well & truly in my top 10 & if its a knock out competition he would be in my top 5 if not in my top two .
Klose is one hell of a big game player , as good as anything the Germans have ever produced & thats saying a lot .
Simply put , Like Ian Rush was , if Klose plays in a Semi Final or Final he is going to score & a player like that in yer squad on match day is like going into a tie 1-0 up on aggregate .
My initial comment was directed at your comment about his 'great performance' against Milan in 2005. I disagree with that as it he was hardly great in the first half. Now I find you are going on some chidlish rant about me be a Man United or Everton troll or that I don't understand, because I don't regard Gerrard as the complete midfielder.
ReplyDeleteI have never ever said Gerrard isn't the great midfielder we have had. Though in general, I have never ever rated Gerrard as a central midfielder in a two-man central midfield. As a attacking midfielder behind the front man or on the right wing he is terrific. If that makes me a troll, than that says more about you and your inability to accept that other people have different valid views on Gerrard. Football opinions have subjectivity in them including yours, deal with it. In my view, Gerrard is a great player, although not a great central midfielder. Sorry(!)
The person didn't specify forwards, just said 'players'. Read.Though I guess you could be forgiven for your interpretation of English, considering your vocal dislike (and sometimes racist dislike) of the English.
ReplyDeleteIt is easy to comment and brag about what went wrong and this and that.. yada yada. Until you're on the pitch yourself. Stay away from the England team, they did their best with a decent squad. It is people like you that has caused the level of expectation of the English team to levels they could never reach.
ReplyDeleteJamie Why don't you slate Hodgson's tactics instead. Gerrard did what was asked of him. Was positionally disciplined, tackled well and created most chances for England. And more than him, there was so many idiots playing ahead of him who were very wasteful in possession.
ReplyDeleteGo look for a husband elsewhere fatty .
ReplyDeleteYou should know seeing as you obviously read it .
ReplyDeleteThat aside Benitez tried his political wrangling at Inter & got the boot for it .
He tried it a LFC & they humiliated him for it by publicly sounding out Klinsman for the job .
Then he lost the dressing room he himself assembled & they got rid of him .
Its no conspiracy theory its plain & simple recognizing the facts & acknowledging that wherever Benitez goes he tries to install himself as the Fans man fighting against the evil board on their behalf .