Gerard Houllier - RIP :-(

19 May 2010

EXCLUSIVE - Rafa Benitez's TOTAL career stats (Never published in full before)

There are various snippets of information floating around on the net about Rafa Benitez's managerial career, but the full and complete stats have never been published on or offline before. Until now!

Whenever I've tried to research Benitez's career, I've often been frustrated by the lack of complete and accurate information available. In order to judge his career (and that of any other manager) fairly, complete statistics are necessary.

It's also frustrating when people continually use inaccurate information as fact; stats from Wikipedia, for example, which only counts Benitez's time at Tenerife, Valencia and Liverpool. Despite this, people STILL use that information and vehemently proclaim it as fact, conveniently ignoring the reality that he also managed at Real Valladolid, Osasuna and Extremadura.

I have exhaustively analysed Benitez's entire career, i.e. every single competitive game, from Valladolid in 1995 all the way up to the end of the 2009-10 season. I obtained these figures from reputable sources both on and offline, including the clubs themselves (when I couldn't find the information I needed).

These figures have never been compiled into one place before.

(I draw no conclusions from the figures - I'm just providing them for information purposes).

Table Key

PD = Primera Division | SD = Segunda Division | PL = Premier League | CDR = Cop Del Rey
SC = Supercopa | UC = UEFA Cup | CL = Champions League | LC = League Cup
FA = FA Cup | WCC = World Club Cup | USC = UEFA Super Cup | WPS = Wins per season
DPS = Draws per season | LPS = Losses per season

TABLE 1 - Career Overview


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TABLE 2 - Grand Totals


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Jaimie Kanwar


120 comments:

  1. OOOOOHHHH - aren't you clever. Too much time on your hands.

    The world was a better place when you were on your pathetic - "I'm not posting till Rafa goes" 13 year old girl tantrum.

    Do us all a favour and go back there

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  2. Absolutely boring. I like you as youw ind people up but seriously, get laid.

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  3. Jaimie, This is becoming very boring.

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  4. Rafa is staying10:30 am, May 19, 2010

    Give it up, Rafa is staying at Liverpool.

    Either you come out of the closet and support your real team or else you are going to live in misery.

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  5. Mark - if you don't like this site, go elsewhere.  If you post another pointless comment like that, I will re-ban you.

    Just because you think it's boring doesn't mean the stats shouldn't be out there.

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  6. You talk about childish attempts to discredit you Jamie well isnt that how your behaviour is towards rafa childish like a toddler having a screaming fit I suggest that you lay off the man and let history decide on how good or bad he is.

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  7. Can you do martin O'neill's record as well and

    Wenger
    Mourinho
    Ferguson
    Capello
    Lippi
    Guardiola
    Ranieri
    Redknapp
    Avram Grant
    Juande Ramos

    Stats mean nothing unless they are compared to others. 

    You could also do a points based ranking system based on years in the job, trophies won, promotions/relegations, win %'s etc then you would have a definitive list of manager and their current ability. 

    You could even include the fabled net spend

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  8. I thought I'd seen the height of idiocy on this site but I've seen it all now.  I've just deleted a raft of posts for people trying to argue this is an attack on Benitez.  The mind boggles!  These are his entire career stats.  These are fact; and in many cases, they put him in a POSITIVE light, not negative!  Some of his win percentages per season are extremely good, even at Liverpool.

    It's not about positive/negaitve - it's simply releasing the figures for reference purposes - and to ensure they're out there, because at the moment, they're not.

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  9. Oh, you're back.  I clicked on this by mistake I think.  I thought also, you'd already done this?

    It's a shame that you have devoted so much time to slating Rafa.  Maybe you could focus on why Purslow seems to be 'stirring' things up behind the scenes.

    But the other guys are right, it is getting boring.  Did Rafa reject your advances or something........... (joke)

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  10. Seems to be quite a positive career to me besides some teething problems in his first couple of seasons, which can be expected.

    Shame about last season though.

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  11. Personally i would be more interested in Rafa's stats from 00-01 on wards as imo the first few years i see Rafa as just in his apprentice years .
    And that looks at around a avearge win percentage of 55.1% with some great stats in la liga and the premier league of 62-66% .

    Imo Rafa should be given more time ...

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  12. Mark - the idea that stats mean nothing unless compared to others is complete and utter nonsense.  Get out of your 'I must protect Rafa at all costs mode' for a second and think objectively.

    1. Total career stats for Benitez do not exist on the net
    2. I have compiled them for information purposes
    3. it is important to have complete stats

    On every wikipedia page for every manager (as well as club websites etc) you will find career stats for managers in isolation.  Are they irrelevant?! 

    if you want to look at how Benitez did at, say, tenerife, then you can with these stats.

    in any event, this is a two part post.  Later today, I will post part 2, which is a comparison with:

    a) All other LFC managers since 1959
    b) All top managers who've worked in the top English division in the last 100 years

    c) Top PL managers over the last 10 years.

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  13. very well said .this parasite has to go sooner rather than later

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  14. Thanks Jamie this is very interesting. However , this by itself it doesn't really tell us anything about how successful Benitez is as a manager. Do you plan to do this for other managers in the PL for e.g. Ferguson, Wenger, O'Neil etc so that we can compare and contrast?

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  15. And no, I am not going to do the following:

    You could also do a points based ranking system based on years in the job, trophies won, promotions/relegations, win %'s etc then you would have a definitive list of manager and their current ability.

    That would not give a definitive view - you want that because you feel it would place Benitez in a better light.  The stats as I've compiled them are good enough to get a feel for a manager's performance *On the pitch*.

    In any event, Benitez compares favourably in all cases, so I don't know what your problem is.

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  16. Don't forget to add the best stats ....

    <span>Manager</span>

    Real Madrid U-19s
    <span>Spain U-19 League</span> Winner (1): 1993 <span>Spain U-19 Cup</span> Winner (2): 1991, 1993

    Extremadura
    <span>Segunda División</span> Promotion:(1): <span>1997–98</span>

    Tenerife
    <span>Segunda División</span> Promotion (1): <span>2000–01</span>

    Valencia
    <span>La Liga</span> Winner (2): <span>2001–02</span>, <span>2003–04</span> <span>UEFA Cup</span> Winner (1): <span>2003–04</span>

    Liverpool
    <span>UEFA Champions League</span> Winner (1): <span>2004–05</span> <span>FA Cup</span> Winner (1): <span>2005–06</span> <span>UEFA Super Cup</span> Winner (1): <span>2005</span> <span>FA Community Shield</span> Winner (1): <span>2006</span> <span>Individual awards</span><span>Don Balón Award</span> Winner (1): 2001–02 <span>UEFA Manager of the Year</span> Winner (2): 2003–04, 2004–05 <span>FA Premier League Manager of the Month</span> Winner (5): November 2005, December 2005, January 2007, October 2008, March 2009

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  17. RC - did you not read table 1?  All his trophies/promotions are included. 

    (Real Madrid under 19s do not count for obvious reasons, which is why I have not included those figures.

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  18. That's 12 more people banned already in the last 5 minutes.   Anyone who contravenes the comment policy with stupid comments will just get banned. No skin of my nose. Keep it coming!

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  19. i dont think this is anyway negative....its an interesting bit of research if anything.fair play

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  20. Rob

    With respect, the figures do tell us how successful Benitez is as a manager.  We can see:

    1. All trophies won
    2. Promotions/relegations
    3. Win/loss/draw percentages
    4. Average win/loss/draws per season
    5. All of the above for every major competiton (League/FA/CL/UEFA etc)

    I think we get a more than accurate picture of how successful a manager Benitez is.

    When we consider how successful Bob Paisley and Bill Shankly were, we look at trophies, games , win percentages etc in isolation.  Does that mean we can't assess how successful they were?  No.

    Plus, there exists no comparison between Shankly, paisley and all the pother top managers over the last 50 years, but we can still get a picture of how successful they were by looking at their individual performance.

    in any event, I will be posting comparisons later.

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  21. Hi Jamie
    During all the season I have read the articles you wrote and some times you really got my blood to boiling point. Thus I decided to ask you some questions which you can feel free to not answer. This is just to try and understand better your toughts.

    Q1. What Manager would you put in if Rafa had to leave?

    Q1.1 Why do you think the Manager you mentioned in Q1 would want to join Liverpoolfc?

    Q1.2 What do you think the Manager you mentioned in question 1 would do in the transfer if the owners gave him 10mil + the money he gets from player sales?

    Q1.3 How do you think the acedamy would be affected by the change in Managers?

    Q2. What are the main reasons you would want Rafa to be sacked on? If that would be an option for you?

    Q2.1 What do you think is the reaason for Real Madrid, Juventus, Inter, Milan etc... to want him to take over at their respective clubs?

    Q2.2 If Rafa stays at liverpool and is given 10mil + money from player sales. What would you expect from him in terms of players in and outs?

    Q2.3 If you were the owner next season what goals would you do to Rafa for next season?

    Q3. What do you think of the financial backing our current owners gave to Rafa?

    Q3.1 Would you be happy if new owners were in place and gave the new manager the same ammount it was given to Rafa in the last 3 yrs?

    Please make me one happy guy and answer all questions.
    I would like to see all the other liverpool fans to post an answer to this as well!!

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  22. Any simirlarly you dont want to do it because it would put Benitez in  better light?

    Horses for courses my dear friend, horses for courses

    ;)

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  23. Bur with a finite amount of trophies available surely the only way to measue his success or failures is by comparing to others Jaimie?

    x

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  24. Hi there,


    Q1. What Manager would you put in if Rafa had to leave?  

    Martin O'Neill is, and always has been, my first choice.  However, if we don't get him, there are plenty of managers across Europe who could do a great job.

     Q1.1 Why do you think the Manager you mentioned in Q1 would want to join Liverpoolfc?  

    * The chance to work at one of history's most revered and successful clubs. LFC never loses its allure, and just because we're going through a rough patch now doesn't mean that things won't change.

    * The chance to build a dynasty (a la Ferguson at united)

    * The chance to rebuild the club (that is a great challenge)

    * The chance to work with world class players like Torres

    * The chance to work with a generalluy higher standard of player than at many other clubs

    * the chance to compete at the highest levels (CL, for example)

    There are many reasons why, and if the job became available, there would be a queue of top managers after it.  The H+G situation will not change that.  Just look at Mourinho's latest comments about LFC being a 'phenomenon'.  Many managers think that.

    Q1.2 What do you think the Manager you mentioned in question 1 would do in the transfer if the owners gave him 10mil + the money he gets from player sales?  

    First of all, it's a poor example because that's not likely to happen.  In any event, I have no doubt that the new manager would buy *better* players and use the money more wisely.  Furthermore, the new manager will be better at motivating our existing squad to get the best out of them, which will automatically improve our level.  Throwing money at the problem is not always the best solution - spending wisely is, and Benitez has not done this.  Over the last 2 seasons, he has spent in excess of 70m on the likes of Keane, Aquilani, Dossena, Johnson, Riera etc - what do we have to show for it?  NOTHING.  Why?  Because he wasted the majority of that money, and the club lost the benefit of spending it wisely and  buying players who *could* have made a difference.
     
    Q1.3 How do you think the acedamy would be affected by the change in Managers?  

    Personnel might change, but considering that the academy has been a failure during Benitez's reign (in terms of youngster grasuating and *staying* in the first team, the only way is up.

    (I will answer the other questions in the next hour or so)

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  25. No - that's not true.  I'm not going to do that because it would take too much time.  It's that simple.  If you want to do it, please do it, and you can post an article on the site with your findings.  I'm all for that.

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  26. You won't get a reply.  This has been posted elsewhere on the net, i saw it about 3 months ago.  If i can find it again, i will dig it out and post the link on here.

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  27. I shall in deed do that Mr Kanwar! 

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  28. well done for the stats. It would be interesting to see though the stats of ferguson during his fisrt 6 years as mufc manager and his stats after '92. The reason is obvious, numbers cannot (alone) define the momentum or the process. I am not protecting anyone. I am a LIVERPOOL supporter! And as a LIVERPOOL supporter I am VERY careful in drawing coclusions at such a difficult period for my "family". When a family is in a mess, everyone is responsible. STICK TOGETHER, because we do not have the luxury of finding perfect solutions to non properly defined problems.

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  29. Mourinho was referring to the fact that we finished 7th as a phenomenon not that as a club we are a phenomenon! 

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  30. sir bob paisley11:17 am, May 19, 2010

    Jaimie where is my 500 nicker lad

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  31. The_Positive_One11:24 am, May 19, 2010

    I will not get on you for posting the stats as I do not see it as an attack on Rafa...

    1. Do you not equate ony of the problems we have as a club on the owners?
    2. Do you think Rafa would be able to do a better job with "real" owners who care about winning trophies? If not why not...
    3. Why do you put so much of the clubs problems on Rafa's shoulders? He is the manager, and only makes personnel and playing decisions...


    Oh and your financial post from yesterday is crazy by the way... You say Rafa cost the club ex amount of money,, yet the money you claim he has cost the club is not money the club has, it is potential earnings... It's like saying he blew his paycheck before it comes in...  Not really possible.... If you blame Rafa, you also have to blame every player who did not perform, every fan who did not sing etc... kinda pointless...

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  32. yes, Jose was talking about the "phenomenon" that since winning the CL in 2005, LFC have got worse in each successive season, in his opinion. Not in terms of position in the league, but in terms of standard/quality of football. Most teams push on and start to play better football, which Jose doesn't think LFC have done.
    Bit of an odd comment from him as his teams are stupifyingly dull to watch. However, the man is a genius, but he'll never manage us, I think he'd only go bach to chelski if he returned to the prem

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  33. Q1.2 What do you think the Manager you mentioned in question 1 would do in the transfer if the owners gave him 10mil + the money he gets from player sales?  

    First of all, it's a poor example because that's not likely to happen.  I know for a fact that the main reason Benitez has not been given more money to spend over the last year is that the Owners do not trust him.  And why should they, considering his transfer record?

    In any event, I have no doubt that the new manager would buy *better* players and use the money more wisely.  Furthermore, the new manager will be better at motivating our existing squad to get the best out of them, which will automatically improve our level.  Throwing money at the problem is not always the best solution - spending wisely is, and Benitez has not done this.  Over the last 2 seasons, he has spent in excess of 70m on the likes of Keane, Aquilani, Dossena, Johnson, Riera etc - what do we have to show for it?  NOTHING.  Why?  Because he wasted the majority of that money, and the club lost the benefit of spending it wisely and  buying players who *could* have made a difference.

    Ultimately, the level of transfer spending available doesn't matter if the manager coming in is happy with it.  I am sure there are managers out there who look at LFC's squad and  think 'I could do better with that group of players!'

    The main goal for the next manager has to be getting the best out of the existing squad, with a couple of quality additions.

    Q1.3 How do you think the acedamy would be affected by the change in Managers?  

    Personnel might change, but considering that the academy has been a failure during Benitez's reign (in terms of youngster graduating and *staying* in the first team, the only way is up.

    It is a complete cop-out to say that Benitez has only had control over the last year.  That is simply not true.  Since he arrived, he has been involved in the academy.  He is the manager!  He goes to games; watches them play; gives the staff guidance etc.  it's not as if the academy has been a separate entity to the club until the last year.

    Furthermore, Benitez has acquired *dozens* of young players in the last 6 years, and almost without exception, his choices have been horrible.  He does not have an eye for young, developing talent, that is for sure.

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  34. JAIMIE ARE U A LIVERPOOL AND IF SO HOW LONG HAVE U BEEN A FAN?

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  35. You are indeed, right.  I wonder why I included that comment even thought it was wrong ;)


    The basic point stands though: look at what other managers have said about LFC (including Mourinho) and it's all good.

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  36. Yes and No. Ultimately there can only be one winner of a league so given that Benitez hasn't won the league during his time in the PL this would make him a failure. However how much of a failure compared to other managers we cannot assess because we don't have the stats.

    For example according to your figures our CL win % is 63% (8WPS and 3LPS on average). Now If we had a comparison with say Arsenal and Man U we could begin to see whether our win % compared to them is at the expense of the PL or inspite of it.

    As I have argued under your previous article regarding LFC not paying interest on H&G loans. The KOP Holdings Accounts state that the main key performance indicator of LFC is to qualify for the CL this could be taken to mean that the board value this over winning the PL (although of course this would gurantee entry into the CL). However I feel that the fact that winning the PL is not the number one priority speaks volumes IMO.

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  37. i actually think this is a refreshing article from this site. it's posting the stats for rafa and not slagging him off, or saying that he should leave. just letting the stats do the talking. a comparasion with shanks/paisley/fagan/kenny/souness/evans/houllier would be interesting, as would some choice other managers. but i imagine that is a pretty boring task.

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  38. A comparison with all other LFC managers and all the top managers (based in the UK) over the last 60 years will be posted later today ;)

    (And yes, it is a boring task, but the fascinating info at the end of it is worth it)

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  39. I thought we agreed I'd pay you £1 a year for the next 500 years?

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  40. Jamie, don't bother answering Mark as with so many others he is defending a cause that doesn't exist. Just because you clearly don't want Benitez at the club (and neither do I) anyone that bothers to read those stats can see they are simply facts and what people do with them is their own decision.

    Keep up the good work sir. 

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  41. Benitez stats :
    won CL in first season with Liverpool
    Went to CL final again within 2 years
    (LFC have not gone to CL final ONCE let alone semi's since English clubs were allowed back in and 4th place allowed to enter CL)
    Benitez won the Primera league with Valencia beating Real and Barca twice.
    benitez comes 2nd in the PL with no NET spenidng money over the summer by beating the vast resources of Chelsea etc.
    You know what they say about Stats mate?

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  42. I agree, we must be in the top 10 most desireable manager's jobs, maybe top 5, so we wouldn't have a problem attracting any manager we want, provided there is money to spend on new players

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  43. I would like to respond to these questions...
    <span>Q1. What Manager would you put in if Rafa had to leave?
    One that has demonstrated progress in the Premier League with less money spent than Benitez. One that Gerrard and Torres want to play for. Also one that doesn't pay for his own media person to 'fire-fight' when the pressure is on and finally a manager that is more interested in the team/club than his own contract.</span>
    <span>Q1.1 Why do you think the Manager you mentioned in Q1 would want to join Liverpoolfc?
    Not that I agree with O'Neill but any manager (with the odd obvious exception) would want to join our great club.</span>
    <span>Q1.2 What do you think the Manager you mentioned in question 1 would do in the transfer if the owners gave him 10mil + the money he gets from player sales?
    Hopefully use a lot more common sense than the current manager.</span>
    <span>Q1.3 How do you think the acedamy would be affected by the change in Managers? 
    The academy was doing well under Steve Heighway. Benitez has taken control thus strengthening his hold over the club....for his own benefit.</span>
    <span>Q2. What are the main reasons you would want Rafa to be sacked on? If that would be an option for you?
    Numerous reasons including ridiculous signings, stupid team sheets and the fact that if he stays our two best players will leave. If he is sacked or leaves of his own free will then they will stay. So it's a no brainer for me!</span>
    <span>Q2.1 What do you think is the reaason for Real Madrid, Juventus, Inter, Milan etc... to want him to take over at their respective clubs?
    Almost a clever tactical question except that Madrid don't want him and neither do Inter. I suppose the fact that they hire and fire managers on the continent means that they can use him for a push in European competitions and get rid if he fails. That of course doesn't appeal to him and is why he demands such greedy contracts. He doesn't want to be sacked after a couple of years unless he earns handsomely from it.</span>
    <span>Q2.2 If Rafa stays at liverpool and is given 10mil + money from player sales. What would you expect from him in terms of players in and outs?
    I would expect the bank that now owns LFC to demand that he reduces (halves) the size of his squad. I suspect however that he will be sacked on July 1st.</span>
    <span>Q2.3 If you were the owner next season what goals would you do to Rafa for next season?
    To have found a new job at another club.</span>
    <span>Q3. What do you think of the financial backing our current owners gave to Rafa?
    Better than that given to Alex Ferguson.</span>
    <span>Q3.1 Would you be happy if new owners were in place and gave the new manager the same ammount it was given to Rafa in the last 3 yrs?
    I would be happy for a manager to have the same spending power as Benitez has enjoyed and would hope that that manager would apply common sense by keeping the obviously good players and selling the obviously crap ones.</span>

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  44. How can a cause be defended that doesn't exist?

    I'm not defending any cause simply asking for a broader method by which to manager to success....

    Calm down lad! 

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  45. Q1. What Manager would you put in if Rafa had to leave?  

    A: Find this hard to answer because i want to see Rafa stay another season with a proper transfer kitty for transfer and not wages to be included.
    But if pushed for results it would be Mourinho but as a man  i would be it hard to have him at the club but whatever Manager we have i will support 100% right until the day he leaves.

     
    Q1.1 Why do you think the Manager you mentioned in Q1 would want to join Liverpool Fc?  

    A:Always imo wanted to manage us and would love to say he really is the special one who resurrected in his opinion not mine the great Liverpool football club after us going backwards under Rafa { his opinion not mine }

     
    Q1.2 What do you think the Manager you mentioned in question 1 would do in the transfer if the owners gave him 10mil + the money he gets from player sales?  

    A:He would laugh at £10m and ask is their a zero missing from the end.But would be interesting what he would do with the squad as his disposal , expect he would off load about £40m of dead wood and invest in another striker as back up to Torres and  a winger who can play both sides of the 3 behind Torres and another left back all for £50m imo.

     
    Q1.3 How do you think the acedamy would be affected by the change in Managers?
     

    A: Depends who goes with him and who stays , its the latest changes in the Academy that i will judge Rafa on since Rodolfo Borrell came on board , watching the under 18's this season and the dramatic change in the team since around Jan/Feb i have a lot of hope the academy will be very successful if we dont change the set up .
    Reserves looked very good as well but for the amount of players they lost since Xmas they imo would have won the reserve league but ended on a bad run but a win in their last game.
     
    Q2. What are the main reasons you would want Rafa to be sacked on? If that would be an option for you?  

    A:Don't have any reasons to sack Rafa even though it has been a dire season and i have been left scratching my heads at times as i look at the whole situation and what Rafa is capable off end of last season shows this at what he has done at Valencia and his dedication to the club.
     
    Q2.1 What do you think is the reaason for Real Madrid, Juventus, Inter, Milan etc... to want him to take over at their respective clubs?  
     
    A:His past record and they all know the conditions he has been working under.

    Q2.2 If Rafa stays at liverpool and is given 10mil + money from player sales. What would you expect from him in terms of players in and outs?  

    A:Id like to see Rafa  of load Reira £6m El zhar £3M Plessis £2m Degen £1m Spearing £3m and be also given the money from Dossena just £5m Voronin just £2m and  Mihaylov £1.5m.
    Total =£23.5m plus a £20m kitty= £43.5m
    And bring in a left back and a back up striker for Torres and if it meant selling Babel for more fund to bring a winger who can play on both Wings like Ardan Turan i would sanction that.
     Deigo Ribasda da cunha at juve is a player who had a bad season at Juve and might be a bargain to be brought in depending on who stays and goes with us a great attacking midfielder with a great goal return imo we need more players scoring from the midfiled.

     
    Q2.3 If you were the owner next season what goals would you do to Rafa for next season?  

    A:Win proper funding .. Win the league .
     
    Q3. What do you think of the financial backing our current owners gave to Rafa?  

    A: Started off good but just became peanuts
    [...]

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  46. Very spot on answers. I agree completely that Benitez cannot capitalise from his group of players. His team selections are ridiculous.Sometimes Glen Johnson is played as LB while Masch is deployed as RB when you can see clearly that Ayala has lots of potential after his brilliant display vs Burnley. The main problem with Benitez for me is that he doesn't give the right players enough gametime. Players such as Babel, Aquilani, Ayala and Pacheco should have been utilised on a more regular basis. Nemeth is on loan but i am having doubts whether he'll make his way to Melwood. IMO, Nemeth would have done better than Ngog in the absence of Torres. Benitez isn't great at man-to-man management, which is in fact very clear. Lots of times we've seen players lose confidence and not motivated at all this season. This also explains why Gerrard has had such a bad season. I have supported Liverpool Fc since being a child and will always remain a Red. The club comes first. If the manager has to go for the club's interest, then so be it.

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  47. Must be  good Reading for the other Managers if you call it Fascinating ...
    Especially how successful whiskey nose was in a second rate league in Scotland but his first season in the premier league imo where he should judged from in his reign as manager compared to Rafa's start with Valencia in la liga,

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  48. Top class answers. This really shows that Rafa has reached the limit and should hand the reigns to a new manager who will make better use of the team and add a couple of quality players and deploy them on the pitch to play some great attacking football. The football we have been playing this season has been cr@p by all standards. 

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  49. Yes - they are irrefutable and factual, and the only way of objectively assessing something.

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  50. I find it particularly ridiculous that you don't find any reasons why Rafa should leave. Apart from winning the CL and FA, the best run Rafa has had with us is when we came second in the PL. When you analyse that season, we should have won it comfortably. So why did we finish 2nd? We made too many draws and lots of them were at home. 11 draws isn't good for a team of Liverpool's calibre. This time round we've lost more matches to small teams away from home. For me Rafa has reached the point where he's incapable of doing anything at Liverpool. Giving him another season would be a disaster and my god I don't want to see my team play horrible football...

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  51. какой шарик всасывая идиота12:53 pm, May 19, 2010

    I would like to say that if you want to be taken seriously you should not delete anyone's posts, whether a personal attack on you or otherwise. You cannot have debate without listening to everyone. Not just people you agree with.

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  52. Wrong.  People who jurl insults/and repeatedly pepper their posts with derogatory comments will have their posts deleted.  If anyone doesn't like that, tough luck.

    Everyone *can* be listened to - just post your views in a civilised manner and let your reasoning and intelligence do the talking.

    If you want slanging matches, head over to any of 100 LFC forums on the net.

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  53. Are you mental1:14 pm, May 19, 2010

    Jamie - you want Benitez out, you want O'neil in. O'neil is a clown, spouts shit and talks out of his hole. Lot of similarities with you to be honest.

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  54. Jamie please explain why my post was deleted I was only making a comparison much like the ones you make surely?

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  55. What I find interesting is the figure for the number of draws.

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  56. Right so once again I appear to have been deleted I thought this was  q+a with normal questions answered I have asked a normal question and yet you delete it AGAIN why?

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  57. Jamie, thank you for the valuable statistics. Whether one agrees or not with your general views is neither here nor there, the statistics you present here are interesting either way.

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  58. Stats!? STATS!?

    Everyone knows stats, and facts, all other dubious means of measuring the truth, have an anti-Rafa bias.

    This posting of stats seems like a pro-American scheme, probably co-funded by United fans.

    I've seen a lot of people post some pretty offensive things about this club, but to post a series of numbers, in columns, on a white background?

    You need locking up Kanwar...I'll never forget the tears I've shed today.

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  59. None of your posts have been deleted.  You probably deleted it yourself ir it didn't post the first time.

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  60. Stats are FACT.

    How the stats are interpreted is not always fact.

    Have I interpreted the stats in my article? No.

    I have merely presented the irrefutable facts about Benitez's managerial career.

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  61. Freddson - you're on the wrong article.  Your posts are on the other 'Win comparison' thread. perhaps if you remembered where you posted things you wouldn't need to accuse me of deleting your posts?

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  62. What are we concluding from these stats? 

    Mark is right.  I would disagree that you can look at Rafa's stats in isolation to conclude an OBJECTIVE view.  How?  The stats will tell you his record. Full stop.  Without comparision to another manager's record it is completely in the reviewer's SUBJECTIVE opinion whether those stats are good or bad.

    Is a 50% win ratio good?  On a standalone basis it might be.  it might not be?  It's the reviewer's subjective opinion.

    Is a 50% win ratio good if Alex Ferguson has 60% and Mourinio 70%.  Well clearly then one can say it's not as good as the other two and therefore performance is not as good.

    Of course you need comparison. 

    What is the definition of a good manager.  There is no statistical threshold.  Alex Ferguson is a good manager.  Shankly is a good manager.  You can only define a good manager by referece to other proven "good" managers.  Unless of course Jamie you have a statisitical threshold performance that constitutes "good".  But this of course would have to referenced against what "good" is, to be proven correct.  ie Against a "good" manager

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  63. They where under guest to start with please dont try to insult my intellect as according to your own rules you would have to ban yourself.

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  64. I have some questiosn for you Jaime:

    1) Looking at Rafa's stats from comparison with other Liverpool managers, he is at 56% wins compared to 52% for Shanks and not far off from Paisley with 57%. Objectively, purely looking at facts (not opinions) wouldn't you say this warrants him staying?
    2) For basis of objective assessment, can you present irrefutable evidence for your statement that rafa was not given money because H+G don't trust him? It would be interesting to get factual evidence regarding this and not hearsay as H+G did trust him enough to extend his contract.
    3) Did you also lobby Rafa to leave last season after we came in 2nd? Curious to know.

    Looking forward to your replies.

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  65. 1. A good win percentage is not enough for a manager to remain.  There are countless other reasons why he has to go, and I've outlined them elsewhere in this thread.

    2. Benitez was not given more money because he cannot be trusted.  I heard that from a very reliable source at the club whom I will not name.  Suffice to say, it's someone who is in a position to make a decision over the level of Benitez's transfer funds.

    3. Finishing 2nd made no difference to my view that Benitez needs to go.  At the end of last season, I posted that this season we'd strggle to finish in the top 4.  i was shouted down, ridiculed etc; no one would have. Look what happened.  I take a long-erm view of the club, not short term.  Last season is the *exception* of benitez's reign, not the rule.

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  66. Your simplistci answer is worrying to say the least. If Benitez won many more games but spent vast amount of money, it cannot be seen as better than winning less games with no real investment. Statistics have no meaning if there is no reference to the context in which the comparison is being made.  

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  67. my post too was deleted? whats goin on?

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  68. Glad you agree then

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  69. A very reliable source thats paper talk for the gossip columns

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  70. The only two people that dtermine how much rafa spends and who on are according to the clubs structure(fact) Ian Purslow and Martin Broughton so unless they are your "sources" then lfc has a serious problem with security and the person concerned is breaking at least 3 privacy and data protection laws

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  71. Call the police.

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  72. Haha, again with the alleged "source". This, I presume, is the same source who provided you information that compelled you to declare, on 14th April 2010, that Benitez would be gone in ten days, "unless something goes seriously wrong with behind-the-scenes negotiations"? How did that turn out?

    I see you've now resorted in desperation to posting articles about Rafa's tenuous links to the impending vacancy at Inter. What, pray tell, does your omniscient source have to say about this?

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  73. Again with the 10 days thing?!  I have never said that.  Never.  Post the link to wherever I stated that. If you post something that is blatantly a lie again, I will ban you.

    What I actually said was 'unless something goes seriously wrong with behind-the-scenes negotiations' Benitez would be gone SOON.

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  74. It's on your facebook page, under the article you posted on April 14th. You state the following:

    "Of course, if Benitez decides he's staying after the 10 day period then a new period of hell will begin. That's not going to happen though unless something goes seriously wrong with the behind-the-scenes negotiations".

    In response to someone doubting the veracity of your source, you said:

    "I have sources I trust (a couple of whom are at the club) who are privy to ongoing negotiations behind the scenes. <span>My main source at the club is in a position to know *everything* that goes on, and is very highly placed within the hierarchy. And no, I can't revel (sic) his name."</span>

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  75. Just to preempt any semantical subterfuge that you may attempt, I think any sane person would interpret your first remark as an assurance that Benitez would be gone in 10 days, which you reinforced by proclaiming how your source knows "everything".

    Well done!

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  76. Are you able to comprehend things properly?!  That post refers to the apparent 10-day deadline given to Benitez by Juventus over making a decision.  My comment means that if after the 10 day deadline is up, Benitez decides to stay, then that would be bad.

    That comment does not in any way, shape or form indicate that I said he would leave in 10 days.

    Nice try though.

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  77. And, lest I forget, you also declared that you knew for a "fact...that this particular story is true, which is why [you] posted it".

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  78. Really intelligent answer you advocate this security breach I presume?

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  79. Call the police.

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  80. I did know it was true - I did know that Benitez had been given a 10-day deadline by Juventus, which *is* why I posted it.  I never said he would be gone in 10 days though; that is false.  And that is not even suggested by my post on the facebook page.  Anyone reading it would presume that I was just highlighting the fact that a 10 day deadline had been given to RB.

    Keep flogging this particular dead horse if you must :)

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  81. Let's just leave this thread here for posterity, and we'll let other readers decide what it is you were attempting to say.

    Or, like your nonsensical assertion that the club "shaved" off 11 million of debt - which I then consummately debunked - you could just delete it, and we could all pretend it never existed.

    Happy Days!

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  82. You're dissembling now, Kanwar. What you implied, from your post on April 14th, is that - according to information gleaned from your putative *in-the-know* source - Benitez would likely adhere to the 10-day deadline imposed by Juventus, barring any breakdown in "behind-the-scenes" negotiations.

    You were wrong, but I don't expect you to admit it.

    The Kanwar Method for avoiding admittance of fault is:

    1) Deleting posts on the grounds that they are "insulting" or "blatant lies".

    2) Deriding detractors as "brainwashed sheep" or members of the IRWT brigade etc.

    3) Promising to post an article "later" in response, which never really materialises.

    4) Banning.

    Adios!

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  83. Pathetic just like a baby throwing its toys out of the pram

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  84. I recently had dinner in London with two very senior LFC officials (draw your own conclussions) and they stated that it the reason that for the £10 million fee place on Rafa, was that are determined to keep him at the club.

    Thay also said that several potential buyers of the club felt that it was important for Rafa to remain as manager.   8-)

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  85. :-D Funny stuff.  That's about as likely as Liverpool reappointing Graeme Souness.

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  86. Lfc are EXTREMELY interested in your source after I forwarded your statement that he decides how much rafa has to spend.Did better than call the police.

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  87. Gee, I'm like, really scared, man.

    (fredsson - if you don't like this site, don't visit.  Stop cloggin up threads with pointless posts.  If you want to discuss this issue further, please email me.  This has nothing to do with the artivcle above).

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  88. Vote Lib-dem get tories8:48 pm, May 19, 2010

    I would definitely NOT want Martin O'Neill at Liverpool.  The main reason being his utter failure to grasp the concept of European football with Aston Villa.  The other reason being his insistence on sticking to a target man up front.  Another reason is the journeymen he carries with him.  Another reason is he plays largely counter attacking football (a la Houllier).  Another reason is Chelsea put 7 past Villa.  That is inexcusable.

    I've got others, but you get the point.  If Rafa stays I'll support him.  If he goes I will wish him well.  I do not pretend to have all the answers and am not arrogant enough to think I do.  I believe the club is in a mess and the sooner we have some stability the better. 

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  89. tears for liverpool9:00 pm, May 19, 2010

    You are right Anwar!! Benitez isnt going to do us any good. Look at what hugson has done for Fulham!! He didnt6 have to spend that much!! Aston Villa is above us on a lesser budget in terms of salaries and player purchases. Whoever says this is boring, is a boring liverpool supporter!!

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  90. Arsenal put 6 past us at Anfield a couple of years ago.  They also put 6 past United.  Chelsea hammered United 5-0 a few years ago.  Does that now make their managers unworthy? 

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  91. tears for liverpool9:09 pm, May 19, 2010

    Right Jaimie,
    One of the reasons I love Liverpool is because of the Tremedous Supporters. We dont have to insult anyone. Just give your views in a civilised manner
    Am praying the Americans and Benitez leave..............

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  92. That's my point Jamie anyone can claim to have sources at the club or a friend of a friend who's in the know!

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  93. It would be intesting if you could do a similar analysis for O'Niell and then we could do a direct comparison between the two managers.

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  94. jkanwarisalyingc*nt9:34 pm, May 19, 2010

    jamie kanwar is a lying c*nt. always has been always will be. he has been invited to speak to people in Liverpool many times but he wont face GENUINE match going fans. will you jamie, you coward, hiding behind your keyboard still you liar.

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  95. cant this site be removed from news now?? i see what i think is going to be a interesting article and its this so called liverpool supporter, do us all a favour mate and actually go to a game before spouting your nonsense

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  96. It would not be a fair comparison for the following reasons:

    1. Villa can only attract a certain quality of player.  It doesn't matter who is in charge, the status of the club dictates that only b grade players will go there. The likes of Carew, Milner etc.

    2. Liverpool is a world class prestige club.  We can attract the very best players, which is why we have Torres.  Villa cannot attract the like of Torres, Mascherano etc.  Thus, we have an advantage in that respect.

    3. Liverpool is an established top 4 team (until this season!), and has been receiving CL money/TV money etc for years.  That makes us a richer club that Villa.

    4. Villa had a brief spurt of success at the end of the 70s with their double European Cup win.  Since then, they have been a mid-table team. Before O'Neill arrived, Villa were slipping into lower half of the table mediocrity.

    5. Liverpool's transfer spend over the last 20 years dwarfs Villa's in a massive way. 

    6. Given Villa's status and resources, the highest you can expect them to finish in the PL is 5th or 6th.  Anything over that is a massive overachievement.

    7. Given LFC's resources, status, ability to attract top players, money etc, the minimum achievable expectation is top 4. Higher than that is definitely achievable.

    So - it's not just a case of doing a like for like comparison.  Villa's win ratio *shoud* be lower than Liverpool's, in the same way that Hull City's win ratio should be lower than Villa's.

    You have to consider the context - you can't just say 'O'Neill's win ratio is lower for the OL, therefore he is a worse manager'.  That is the worst kind of simplistic thinking.  if that was the case, how did he manage to finish ABOVE Benitez with less resources, less ability to attract top players and a lower quality squad?

    I will do the comparison, but you should bear these things in mind.

    O'Neill has done a fantastic job at Villa - the fact that he has overtaken Liverpool and Benitez is proof of that.

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  97. The difference is my articles over the last 3 years in which I used material from my source have come true.  Additionally, at least 3 people who post regularly on this site have seen a couple of the emails from one of my sources for verification purposes.

    In any event, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest whether people believe me or not.  I know it's true, so that's good enough for me.

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  98. 2nd to 7th in one season and not really challenging in the seasons before.  Even the season he led us to victory was Houlllier's team and I remember being told year after year how the quality of the team has improved since but look at us now.  It looks like Houllier all over again.  Everyone has the right to an opinion and I agree that Rafa's time is over.  I don't care about stats and I dont care much for our manager tactics either.

    I know the red necks have stiffled this club, but it wasn't them who bought in the likes of vronin, degen, dossena, lucas (better but still not top class), nunez, josemi, kronkamp, pellegrini, riera, pennant, an injured player who he hardly played at all, ngog, elzhar and many more.  When they arrived at the club they were all meant to be quality signings.

    Then we look at the strikers we sold - Crouch, Bellamy, Keane and guess what guys we couldn't score.  Even kuyt, who is meant to be a striker does not score enough goals and he sure aint a right winger.  No confidence in Babel, Benayoun.  Plays masch as right back and if I remember played 7 defenders against portsmouth last year.

    Forget istanbul that was 5 years ago. RAFA OUT

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  99. Jaimie, your article has an anti-rafa agenda without saying so explicitly.....AGAIN. Have you analysed the special one's early career or maybe even shanks's?? your threat to ban Mark seems petulant in the extreme

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  100. Mark was previously banned for a valid reason. I unbanned him, but posting stuff like 'This is really boring' is a waste of time.  Debate the issue, but don't waste space with snide posts. 

    That my article has an anti-rafa aagenda is just your opinion, it's not fact.

    Why should I analyse Shanks' early career; is he the manager now? There's no comparison - the LFC of Shanks era was 1000% different than it is now.

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  101. So of course it follows that there is no assurance that Martin O'Neill would be successful at Liverpool. I think he's a great manager too but I see no concrete reasons for choosing him over Benitez. Rafa has had success at the top level that O'Neill has yet to produce. Sure, he hasn't had the chance, but that doesn't really change the hard facts.
    I consider achieving our two highest points total in PL history to be significant. If that's what Rafa can achieve then for me he is absolutely the man for the job. He'll get one more season to prove it and I'm happy with that. I think with perhaps a couple of decent signings we'll be aiming for 80+ points again which is good enough for me. If we don't get that then at least it will be cheaper to sack Rafa at the end of next year.    

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  102. If that's true then the board have a lot to answer for. When you don't trust your manager with transfer funds then it's time to sack him. Keeping someone at the club because he has a ridiculous compensation clause in his contract is no excuse. I would be very worried about a club that puts forward such mixed messages. 

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  103. Nicely done jamie..
    I wasn't sure about rafa before but.... Thanx to you Jk I know now just how good he really is...
    Less this season he has been fantastic, pushing us up the table every season, without backing for the thieves uptop.

    Though I do wonder whether asked yourself those posing as a guest and the answering the like it was an essay...
    Oh well the good news is that rafa has committed himself to LFC...
    Thank you god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  104. what aoad of old rubbish. LFC hasnt been the same since souness left! Rafa is a good solid manager. He has done a good job for LFC and will continue to do so. A couple of bad decisions and everyone wants him sacked . We did get 2nd 2008 - 09???? Stop getting so uptight about it all and get a life! YNWA

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  105. SEASON 2OO8/2009 WE ONLY LOST TWICE IN THE PREM AN 4 TIMES THE SEASON BEFORE

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  106. Anyway looking forward to seeing Rafa back for next season with all our best players still at the club and a few quality additions  , after a bad season in Spain with Valencia Rafa bounce back and won La Liga for the second time , so i have all the faith in the world Rafa will get us back on track.

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  107. This source must be very high up in the club ,because surely theirs only 1 person besides the owners who can make such a decision , if not one of the owners and that would imo be Broughton who you dont know personally so if your telling the truth , it can only be one of the yanks .

    Thought you said you would reveal your source ?

    Seems all far fetched to be honest.

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  108. Just read your source is given you information for 3 years , so cant be Purslow or Broughton ,Sorry but only person it can be that has such power over Managers Transfer fund can be the Yanks and remind how long are they here Jamie ..

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  109. <p><span>Absolutely Right Ian.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>No point taking an OBJECTIVE view, Let’s take a SUBJECTIVE view.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>This season, Liverpool, a club that i Love, has suffered idiotic decisions, That even the players were left CONFUSED of thereafter, tactics that even the likes of ( No disrespect ) lesser teams exploited, and ALL in ALL, subjectively, Rafa has been totally off target this season.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Granted there have been off the field issues, but dont we all face issues in our day to day lives ?!?</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Its his job to focus on the business of winning games, and not coming up with repetitive excuses of, " We are clearly improving "</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Subjectively, Rafa promised a top 4 finish, He Failed!</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Looking at our season as a whole, everything that Rafa tried to accomplish he Failed at, and this has left the club, in a bad way.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Which Liverpool supporter is happy with the state of the club, ONLY FOOTBALL, forget politics for now ?</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>We are playing poor football, and that is simply not good enough for a club with a proud tradition like Liverpool FC.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>In Faith that we will re-claim our rightful heritage as the greatest force in football, and restore an indisputable new history!</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>

    </p>

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  110. Another point if you had such a high up source in the club and you didn't want to let us know who he was you wouldn't have said he had control over the amount of funds Rafa will get for transfer this summer .
    Because surely from that information imo it has to be one of the yanks . Somebody who knows the club structure better than myself would easily know besides the yanks who could make that decision and is at the club at least 3 years.
    Because surely the possibilities are very very few if more than 1 besides the yanks.

    Am i wrong ? and am i wrong that i read that you would reveal your source and a few threads back ?

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  111. Secrets secrets9:57 am, May 20, 2010

    Who provides your funding for your anti Rafa campaign Jamie?

    Hicks & Gillett?

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  112. 2. Benitez was not given more money because he cannot be trusted.  I heard that from a very reliable source at the club whom I will not name.  Suffice to say, it's someone who is in a position to make a decision over the level of Benitez's transfer funds.  
    Just reading over your statement , so i dont take it up wrong .When you say not given are your talking about the last transfer window and i take it our source has the same control over Rafa's next transfer window if still here.

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  113. One last thing i take its the same source that you talk about has been given you information over the last 3 years ... that said ..

    2. Benitez was not given more money because he cannot be trusted.  I heard that from a very reliable source at the club whom I will not name.  Suffice to say, it's someone who is in a position to make a decision over the level of Benitez's transfer funds.  




    Sorry if im banging on , but find it very hard to believe , so would be nice if you could set my straight and not just say i dont care if you believe me or not

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  114. The Owners have been here for over 3 years.  What's your point?

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  115. RC - I'm not really bothered whether people find it hard to believe that I have sources at the club. My articles over the last 3 years contain countless snippets of inside info that has proven to be correct, including a post last season wherein I outlined our current debt leves *before* they were revealed in this year's club accounts.  Journalists never reveal their sources *ever*, unless compelled to do so by law, and even then, it's down to the individual.  If I publicly revealed my sources, I would not get any further information.  You do see that, don't you?

    Ever since I used to write for LFC.tv in the very early days of the site (way before Tomkins), I've been cultivating sources for inside info.

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  116. My point is , if ? its the same source over the last 3 years , i don't see anybody else but the owners at the club that could have control over the decision on  Rafa's transfer funds , i understand not to reveal your source but im sure you said you would a few threads back ? and to say he has control over Rafa's transfer budget , surely if its not the owners and its somebody else that's at the club 3 years or more ?
    it would be easy enough for a lot to guess your source as their can be only 1 person beside the owners that could make such a decision and i cant see anybody that's at the club at least 3 years who cam but still you say you want tom keep his identity secret ???

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