According to the massively biased media and growing numbers of misinformed fans, Tom Hicks and George Gillett are the cause of all of Liverpool FC’s financial problems. Is this really true though? As I will illustrate, the reality that the Pro-Benitez Cult refuse to accept is that Benitez has cost Liverpool FC significantly more money over the last year than the club’s much-maligned owners.
Sources for the following figures:
1. Official UEFA Report detailing current CL money awards
2. Official UEFA Revenue Distribution Report
3. Official FA Prize Fund report
4. Official accounts for LFC and Athletic Grounds Ltd (the CLUB) for 2009.
My aim is to illustrate:
1. How Rafa Benitez has cost the club more money than Hicks and Gillett in the last year.
2. How Benitez will cost the club more money than H+G in the coming year.
The Club
The club = Liverpool FC + Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL). Not Kop Football Ltd. Not Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd. Not Kop (Cayman) Ltd. Any losses I highlight here come directly out of the club itself.
Reasonable expectations
Taking into account the quality of the club's squad, and past footballing performance under Benitez, I submit that at the start of last season (2009-10), it was reasonable to expect the following;
1. Qualification for the Quarter-finals of the CL.
2. Qualification for (at least) the 5th round of the FA Cup.
3. Quaification for next season's Champions League competition.
At the end of season 2008-9 (when we finished 2nd) I have no doubt that most - if not all - fans would've agree with the above 3 expectations. As such, I have outlined the losses the club has accrued as a result of not meeting the reasonable (conservative) expectations above.
Fans should think about the following figures the next time they want to blame someone for the lack of money available for transfer funds.
So, without further ado:
HICKS + GILLETT
£9.3m - Interest payments from LFCAGL to Kop Football Limited.
*KFL has loaned LFCAGL a total of £100.8m. £9.3m is the TOTAL amount of money paid by the club to one of H+G's holding companies over the last year.
This constitutes ALL the money that H+G have directly cost the CLUB in the last financial year. Any other figure advanced is, quite simply, wrong.
RAFA BENITEZ
General losses
£4.3m – Termination payments for sacked staff sacked, plus Rick Parry's pay-off.
Benitez sacked large numbers of the club’s backroom staff in the last year, including 16 in one go. He also lobbied to have Rick Parry kicked out of Anfield, and this was achieved. All of this costs money though, and as the club accounts illustrate, the total cost of the changes Benitez wanted amounted to £4.3m.
Champions League losses
I’ve estimated this conservatively, not including potential losses from making it to the semi-final/final of the CL. Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL
€ 3m - Failure to qualify for next season’s CL
€ 2.4m - Loss of potential revenue from the group stage of next season’s CL
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL
€23.2m - Projected loss of CL television money next season (This is the figure LFC made this season in CL money)
TOTAL CL LOSSES = €38m
Converted to pounds = £32.4
* Figures are stated in the UEFA Report referenced in the sources section at the start of this article.
FA CUP
Again, I've estimated this conservatively, only including figures up to the fifth round stage (in line with the expectations I proposed at the start of this article).
£67,500 - Loss for failing to win the third round tie.
£90,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fourth Round tie.
£180,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fifth Round tie.
FA CUP Television Fees
£222.7 - Fourth Round TV revenue loss
£377.4 - Fifth Round TV revenure loss
TOTAL FA CUP LOSSES = £937.5K
TOTAL PROJECTED LOSSES ATTRIBUTABLE TO RAFA BENITEZ = £37.5m
* This figure will, of course, be offset by gains in the Europa League (£900k this season - potentially £3-4m next season if we go all the way).
* That still doesn't change the fact that the club's turnover and profit margin will take a huge hit next season a result of this season's atrocious performance.
* The squad was more than strong enough to finish in the top 4 this season. The failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez.
It's all too easy just to blame the club's lack of spending power on Hicks and Gillett, but as I've illustrated, Rafa Benitez has cost the club a hell of a lot more money.
Having said all that, Hicks and Gillett may potentially cost the club a further £10-£16m if/when Benitez is sacked. Handing him a new 5 year contract last year was an act of unbelievable negligence on the part of the Owners.
Jaimie Kanwar
Sources for the following figures:
1. Official UEFA Report detailing current CL money awards
2. Official UEFA Revenue Distribution Report
3. Official FA Prize Fund report
4. Official accounts for LFC and Athletic Grounds Ltd (the CLUB) for 2009.
My aim is to illustrate:
1. How Rafa Benitez has cost the club more money than Hicks and Gillett in the last year.
2. How Benitez will cost the club more money than H+G in the coming year.
The Club
The club = Liverpool FC + Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL). Not Kop Football Ltd. Not Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd. Not Kop (Cayman) Ltd. Any losses I highlight here come directly out of the club itself.
Reasonable expectations
Taking into account the quality of the club's squad, and past footballing performance under Benitez, I submit that at the start of last season (2009-10), it was reasonable to expect the following;
1. Qualification for the Quarter-finals of the CL.
2. Qualification for (at least) the 5th round of the FA Cup.
3. Quaification for next season's Champions League competition.
At the end of season 2008-9 (when we finished 2nd) I have no doubt that most - if not all - fans would've agree with the above 3 expectations. As such, I have outlined the losses the club has accrued as a result of not meeting the reasonable (conservative) expectations above.
Fans should think about the following figures the next time they want to blame someone for the lack of money available for transfer funds.
So, without further ado:
HICKS + GILLETT
£9.3m - Interest payments from LFCAGL to Kop Football Limited.
*KFL has loaned LFCAGL a total of £100.8m. £9.3m is the TOTAL amount of money paid by the club to one of H+G's holding companies over the last year.
This constitutes ALL the money that H+G have directly cost the CLUB in the last financial year. Any other figure advanced is, quite simply, wrong.
RAFA BENITEZ
General losses
£4.3m – Termination payments for sacked staff sacked, plus Rick Parry's pay-off.
Benitez sacked large numbers of the club’s backroom staff in the last year, including 16 in one go. He also lobbied to have Rick Parry kicked out of Anfield, and this was achieved. All of this costs money though, and as the club accounts illustrate, the total cost of the changes Benitez wanted amounted to £4.3m.
Champions League losses
I’ve estimated this conservatively, not including potential losses from making it to the semi-final/final of the CL. Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL
€ 3m - Failure to qualify for next season’s CL
€ 2.4m - Loss of potential revenue from the group stage of next season’s CL
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL
€23.2m - Projected loss of CL television money next season (This is the figure LFC made this season in CL money)
TOTAL CL LOSSES = €38m
Converted to pounds = £32.4
* Figures are stated in the UEFA Report referenced in the sources section at the start of this article.
FA CUP
Again, I've estimated this conservatively, only including figures up to the fifth round stage (in line with the expectations I proposed at the start of this article).
£67,500 - Loss for failing to win the third round tie.
£90,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fourth Round tie.
£180,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fifth Round tie.
FA CUP Television Fees
£222.7 - Fourth Round TV revenue loss
£377.4 - Fifth Round TV revenure loss
TOTAL FA CUP LOSSES = £937.5K
TOTAL PROJECTED LOSSES ATTRIBUTABLE TO RAFA BENITEZ = £37.5m
* This figure will, of course, be offset by gains in the Europa League (£900k this season - potentially £3-4m next season if we go all the way).
* That still doesn't change the fact that the club's turnover and profit margin will take a huge hit next season a result of this season's atrocious performance.
* The squad was more than strong enough to finish in the top 4 this season. The failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez.
It's all too easy just to blame the club's lack of spending power on Hicks and Gillett, but as I've illustrated, Rafa Benitez has cost the club a hell of a lot more money.
Having said all that, Hicks and Gillett may potentially cost the club a further £10-£16m if/when Benitez is sacked. Handing him a new 5 year contract last year was an act of unbelievable negligence on the part of the Owners.
Jaimie Kanwar
ANYONE who contravenes the comment policy will have their posts deleted. Debate in the right manner - do not moan to me if your post gets deleted.
ReplyDelete----------------------------
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I don't think anybody takes you seriously mate.
ReplyDeletewhile you may be able to say termination payments for the academy staff can be laid at Rafa's door (as they can be considered to come under the title of Football related staff), Rafa has no control over Rick Parry's contract. So while he can lobby for him to be sacked he could never terminate his contract.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of the 9.3m interest payment, there were also expenses made by H&G that were charged directly to the club. Although I don't have them to hand, they were for things like plane hire, car hire etc and came to over 1 million.
Thanks for your comments.
ReplyDeleteThe expenses are charged to Kop Football Ltd, NOT the club (LFCAGL).
You may have a point about Parry's contract, but I think it's fair to say that Benitez played a huge part in having Parry kicked out of the club. The question is 'but for the intervention of Benitez, would Parry have left the club?'
The answer is arguably no.
Parry's departure is inextricably linked to Benitez.
You forgot to add the H&G travel expenses and the bottle of wine that Tom Hicks spilled on the table.
ReplyDeleteIf the yanks had provided Rafa with a bit more transfer money, we could of made the champions league. We came very close to winning the league last year, the owners should have provided a bit more cash. Tevez was interested initially as he would of joined his mate mascherano and he wanted to p*ss of Fergie.
ReplyDeleteYou could also blame the doctor who examined Aquilani and reckoned he would be fit in a couple of months tops.
The fact is we are being left behind Tottenham and City because of the Yanks not Rafa. Tottemham are planning a new stadium and will be charging London prices, City are now richer than Chelsea.
If the yanks had started building the stadium when they said, there could have been some hope around the corner and also optimism about the club. That is gone and we will struggle to keep players this summer, let alone attract anyone decent.
Well, I for one am quite happy the fool Parry is out. I will be much happier when Tom Hicks no longer owns LFC. Living in Texas I've watched him ruin the Rangers, ruin the Stars and now ruin a club I love in LFC. Is it all his fault? No. But one can see the Hicks blueprint at work. Spend some money on one or two stars and hope it works. When it doesn't, fire manager after manager (that hasn't happened yet, but whether or not it's good is up to you) and then finally turn over the running of the club to those who know what they are doing to reverse years of incompetence on Hicks' part. Is the club about to do a Pompey? No. Were the club better off in January 2007 then they are now? Yes. No doubt about that.
ReplyDeletelinked yes, but ultimately Benitez does not have the power to terminate Parry's contract - just as he wouldn't have the power to terminate Ian Ayres contract or even Ian Ayres secretaries contract.
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean that the club is paying £9.3M in interest on a loan of £100.8M? This is gross extortion, almost 10%. On the other hand it's a lot better than the £350M I though we owed, rising by £56M per year.
ReplyDeleteof course, you're right on this particular point, though I still feel the figure can be included. Even without it though, the loss is significant.
ReplyDeleteYou blame Rafa (only him? what about players? I think we're a team) about the economichal losses in the present Champions League edition. It's reasonable and I could be agree.
ReplyDeleteBut, what about the total amount of profits in the last CL editions when we reached 2 finals and a semi-final??
Did Rafa (and players) won much money for the club than the yanks?
Apologies for my poor english. Greetings from Barcelona.
<span>
ReplyDelete<p>The mandate of the new owners as far as I can recollect was to bring Liverpool's spending power in the transfer market in line with the other top teams in the Premiership and to, most importantly, construct a new stadium to secure the long term financial future of the club.
</p><p>
</p><p>Even though we have made a number of club record signings since they arrived, this has been offset by outgoings and the generosity of SKY and UEFA in rewarding failure like never before (i.e. 4th place qualifying to a moneyspinning Champions League). It should be noted however that we have been making just as many, if not more, marquee signings (£10m+) than the other traditional Top 4 teams over the last few years.
</p><p>
</p><p>However, where the owners have really cost us in regards to the stadium. When looking at projected losses, you have to consider the fact that new ownership should've been guaranteeing us a new stadium, which would significantly increase the clubs income long term. The fact that this has not happened, and we continue to fall behind our competition in regards to match-day revenue means that this is an opportunity cost that should be placed against the owners and consequently would overshadow Rafa's financial failings.
</p><p>
</p><p>I am no Rafa apologist (Rafa Out since 2007) but imo it is wrong to downplay the failures of the owners in order to accentuate Rafa's failures. All three of them need to move on ASAP in order for the club to move forwards, and this whole civil war involving the club to end...
</p></span>
Hello Jaimie.
ReplyDeleteI don't quite understand why the intention appears to be to keep Kop Holdings out of your analysis.
I understand that there is debt on the club's books, and there is debt on the books of Kop Holdings.
However, since Kop Holdings has only one operating asset, which it owns 100%, Liverpool Football Club, then I would submit that in practical terms, the two are intrinsically linked.
In even more practical terms, if Kop Holdings defaults on an interest payment for debt on its books, not the Club, what does the lender do? Go after the assets of the Kop Holdings to recover its loan principal. And the only asset of Kop Holdings is....the club.
My simple question is this: if Kop Holdings defaults on its debt payments, can you think of a scenario where Liverpool Football Club remains unaffected?
- ok then, but who is or was responsible for the expectations you mentioned above = Right, Rafa Benitez!!! (Befor Rafa, we were not expected to play CL ever year and even get to semi finals) These expetations were raised by Rafa not G+H!
ReplyDelete- Then there are expenses of over one million charged on the club directly by G+H. These should be included, too = otherwise it is not acurate.
- Then they did and revised plans of the stadium and didn`t build it. So this money is so far wasted, too! Do you think it was cheaper to build the stadium when G+H came in or is it cheaper now? I think the answer is clear, that it is and will be much more expensive. These sums should also be included in your summary...
- Plus you should make this summary over the period whole period in which they are here! Nor just one bad year. Then you would realise that Rafa earned more money than he "wasted" and that the Yanks did more harm to this club than most people want to believe...
- Not to mention the Damage of the image of LFC which they totally destroyed. This you can not even express in exact figures!!!
So the point is, that this figures are not accurate! and you can not compare the owners and the managers of any club by their expenses!!! This is no objective view on the whole case either!
Lets face it there have been some horror transfers, Kean being the most bizzar. A massive loss of around 8 mill after 1 season. Aqualini? still out on that one. and a few others. But lets also face it, the new owners who honestly have no heart or passion for the club Have no intension of making any significant personal investment and who are in this just to make money. Rick Parry had to go. He was instrumentle in getting these 2 G+H in as owners. That has been the biggest mistake in the clubs history. We are paying them nearly 10% interest a year on £100 m. If they sell they walk away with money in the bank but they want an over priced amount of money for the club to get massive profits and are holding the club to ransom for that. They don't care if the club does not qualify for CL. Not in the way we do. It's all about profits and selling potential to them. Not about playing at the top level and being the best. They are souless and have no place in our club. I copuld go on. In a nut shell Rafa was right, there needed to be a massive shake up in the back room. How many youth have come through in recent years. Lack of investment on the field means 7th place in EPL and no CL qualification simple.
ReplyDeleteI hope i did not contravene the comment policy! I just wanted to express my view on this! Plus I m not English, so my English is probably not always that good...
ReplyDeleteWhere is the Europa league figures?
ReplyDeleteCarrard - I wish ppl would stop giving Rafa so much credit for us being Champions League regulars during his reign! We were a top 4 club before Rafa and we remain a top 4 club now. The only difference being that under Rafa this has always been rewarded with entry to a money-spinning Champions League (group stages + seeding to keep the "biggest" teams apart until latter stages), whereas previously we would go straight into a knock-out competition in the UEFA Cup.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of your sentiment (that it is impossible to quantify the actions of both parties and compare them) but you give Rafa too much credit for his achievements, when in fact he has just benefited from (and wasted) some very positive circumstances
HI JAIMIE,
ReplyDeleteFIRSTLY I ABSOLUTELY ADORE LFC FANS LIKE YOU,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU...NO MATTER WHAT THE STORY...
RAFA'S TEAM SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST FINISHED 4th(VILLA FINISHED ABOVE US AS WELL) AND QUALIFIED FOR AT LEAST THE QUARTER FINALS
THE OTHER THING I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN IS THE LAST SUMMER BUYS...
JOHNSON & AQUILANI
THESE GUYS WERE TOO EXPENSIVE....AND COULD NEVER FILL ARBELOA AND ALONSO BOOTS!!! ALSO YES BENITEZ HAD PARRY OUT THE DOOR BECAUSE OF THE ROBBIE KEANE SAGA...ALSO RAFA WANTED FULL CONTROL OF SIGNINGS!!
GOT A 2 QUESTIONS FOR ALL YOU GUYS........THINK ABOUT IT...!!!
YOU ARE TOP OF THE LEAGUE AND YOUR ONLY REAL STRIKER IS INJURY PRONE (TORRES) YOU HAVE ANOTHER STRIKER CALLED KEANE...WHY SELL HIM IN JANUARY??
NEXT QUESTION.....
YOU ARE SELLING TWO PLAYERS TO MADRID FOR £40 MILLION....WHY BUY AQUILANI AND JOHNSON.....ONE GOT SHIPPED OUT BY MOURINHO AT CHELSEA AND THE OTHER ONE IS NEVER FIT FOR HIS BELOVED ITALIAN TEAM???
HOW ABOUT RAFA SIGNING WESLEY SNIEJDER AT THE TIME OF SELLING ALONSO TO MADRID???
MADRID SOLD SNIEJDER TO INTER MILAN FOR £15 MILLION SHORTLY AFTER SIGNING ALONSO!!!
WE WONT EVEN TALK ABOUT SELLING RIISE AND REPLACING HIM WITH NO LEFT BACK...OH SORRY ANDREA DOSSENA WAS BOUGHT FOR £8 MILLION WHO IN MONEY TERMS COST MORE THAN
ASHLEY COLE
PATRICE EVRA
GAEL CLICHY
(FACT)
SORRY IF I HURT ANY RAFA FANS OUT THERE...I STILL ADMIRE THE GUY OVERALL AS A MANAGER BUT I HOPE THE ABOVE EXPLAINS
THANKS
KAZ
OH SORRY FORGOT TO EVEN MENTION
ReplyDeleteOUR BIG MONEY BUYS CAME UNDER THE YANKS
BY THE WAY I DONT REALLY LIKE THE GUYS BUT....
TORRES
MASCHERANO
KUYT
IF WE WON THE TITLE LAST SEASON THEN WE MIGHT BE THANKING THE YANKS
on here!
ReplyDeleteyou are simply ignoring the first years rafa came to LIVERPOOL, We as a club were a mid teble team before rafa came, , you did not mention 2005 CL winners, CL finalists in 2007, second in the PL table last year, OK we had a Very very bad season this term,
ReplyDeleteBUT in pure Honesty ,was Rafa backed all the way by the yanks NO
If you prefer that Rafa leaves and stick with these 2 clowns !!! well I'm not sure what to think about a LIVERPOOL fan/supporter who has this opinion about H&G, they just simply ruined our beloved club in just 3 years
YNWA
@Jay
ReplyDeletedon't get me wrong, i think Rafa is a very good manager, but he has no man management which is essential. I think some players like Babel could be much better with another manager.
And some of his signings did not make any sense. I would have signed Sneijder and Van der Vaart for 20m and not Aquilani... Plus the problem with the strikers is obvious since we sold Crouch. Signings like Voronin are not explainable...
For me the problem is that since Rafa broke up with his Assistant a few years ago, some of his judgements are questionable! I think the Assistant was Paco Herrera, but i'm not sure... But from there he changed in a negative way!
But Rafa built our Image in Europe again, which is not that easy...
And, it was much easier to be a top four club when there was no Chelsea. and now there is even City plus some other clubs which spend big money. That was not alwas the case before Rafa!
In the end, for me it is time for a change: So Rafa should go by himself, we should make Dalglish/Rush our management team until we have new owners. The new owners have probably an own view on it and hire someone else! But if Rafa stays the new owners would have a decision to make between him and a new one! So there is not much difference...
"<span>The squad was more than strong enough to finish in the top 4 this season. The failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez"</span>
ReplyDeleteJust because the club has finished in the top 4 in all but the first and last season does not make it a reasonable expectation. expectations doesnt always equal reality. You would agree that the 5th most expensive squad if everyone preforms to their ability should finished about 5th give or take. if they preform good then a top 4 finish and even a top 2 finish is possible. You may make reference to arsenal but they are an exception to the general rule. if you look at the prems top 5 teams , 4 out of 5 of them are in the list of top five most expensive squads. So yes the team should have finished about 5 and a 7th place is due to an under preformance of the manager and the players. When Liverpool was the best in the world it was because of a good manager but being able to break transfer records on players sure doest hurt.
FA cup exit = no excuse
The fact that Moore gave him a record buyout cant be placed on rafa but even if removed your overall point has some validity even if you decided to only look at one season
<span>
</span>
After last years mess, changing team so much, (premiership) then with all the pressure from fans & press, reverting to a more settled team and missing title by 1 point, that was enough for me. Rafa had had his chance, time for change, bring in Jose, 10 points ahead before the season even starts!!! We gotta move on, WHY NOT A SUPPORTER CONSORTIUM???? For to take over????
ReplyDeleteJust some 4m/a year... :o)
ReplyDeleteGot some money???
ReplyDeleteBuilding a niche through poor accounting and having an agenda is not a very good niche at all.
ReplyDeleteExcellent comment. Just have to add here, if the rug wasn't pulled from under him, as everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten, Rafa was going to buy another 2 big players last summer - namely a striker and a defender. If he knew his budget and had planned accordingly, I doubt he would've spent 18 mmill on a RB and 20 mill on an injured player. He then had to dig in the bargain bin to find (a very decent IMO) CB for only 2 mill. He was supposed to have Keane's, Leto's, Voronin's and Alonso's sale money plus 20 mill. Instead he was forced to bring back Voronin as cover for Torres, where even 19yr old Ngog was better! The main reason for our failures this season is one Mr Christian Purslow! If you do some research on him you will see he has always been against Rafa, he is the one who pulled the rug on Rafa, and is leaking false info in the press, or maybe 1 of H+G is putting him up to it, but at the end of the day Rafa has been the scapegoat for their screw ups. And then people blame him for speaking in the press. Come on guys be logical! Think outside the box! Rafa has turned water into wine at LFC - he doesn't turn into a crap manager overnight. There is no bias here, there is only one thing ruining this club - the debt! Source of that - the owners!!!
ReplyDeleteThank God that Rafa stood to be counted when it came to Parry, lets look at what he cost the Club, awful marketing for years, look at the big difference that has been achieved since Parry left new sponsorship deal that dwarf anything that parry could ever achieve, as for Gillette and Hicks no matter what so called facts and figures you roll out they are bad for LFC and the sooner they go the better for all, ps what part did Parry play in the last minute decision to sell to G & H rather than DIC
ReplyDeleteThekop - we have not been a midtable team throughout my lifetime. Also, Houllier won more trophies than Rafa while maintaining our status as a Top 4 club, even without the benefit of the Champions League money or SKY making the Premiership the richest in Europe, yet it was generally accepted that he had taken the club as far as he could, just as Rafa has.
ReplyDeleteWe haven't been major spenders for many a year, Yanks or no Yanks, and as such that should not be an excuse for Rafa's underachievement this season (p.s. we came 2nd last year with Rafa AND the Yanks, and the squad was expected to challenge again at the close of the transfer window at which point the Yanks had no further influence on our season...)
Wait, I've got another one. Kanwar, you've got a girls name.
ReplyDeleteKanwar, you're a girl.
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you think we should only be compared with the traditional top four. Since 07/08 the teams competing for the CL have bought:
ReplyDeleteChelsea (4 players) : Yuri Zhirkov (£18m), Jose Bosingwa (£16m), Nicolas Anelka (£15m), Florent Malouda (£13m)
Arsenal (3 players) : Thomas Vermaelen (£10m), Andrei Arshavin (£15m), Samir Nasri (£16m)
Manchester United (7 players) : Antonio Valencia (£16m), Chris Smalling (£10m), Demitar Berbatov (£30m), Carlos Tevez (£10m loan), Nani (£13m), Anderson (£15), Owen Hargreaves (£17m)
Liverpool (6 players) : Glen Johnson (£17m), Alberto Aquilani (£17m), Robbie Keane (£19m), Javier Mascherano (£17m), Ryan Babal (£11m), Fernando Torres (£20m)
Manchester City (10 players) : Gareth Barry (£12m), Roque Santa Cruz (£17m), Carlos Tevez (£25m), Emmanuel Adebayor (£25m), Kolo Toure (£16m), Joleon Lescott (£22m), Jo (£18m), Wayne Bridge (£12m), Craig Bellamy (£14m), Nigel De Jong (£16m)
Tottenham Hotspur (7 players) : Heurelho Gomes (£10m), Robbie Keane (£12m), Jermain Defoe (£15m), Wilson Palacios (£12m), Roman Pavlyuchenko (£14m), David Bentley (£15m), Luka Modric (£16m)
Liverpool are 4th out of the 6 teams, with only Chelsea and Arsenal buying fewer (£10m+) marquee signings. Would you say then that we've spent enough to complete with teams around us? Our performance this season would suggest we haven't.
I think it is difficult to assess the success or failure of Benitez because of the year-on-year impact of the ownership-related pressures. His performance in the transfer market has been reasonable considering available funds - an annual average of less than £13m nett spend is almost frugal in Premiership terms. You can't be blamed for buying average squad players if you can only afford average squad players. Benitez has made transfer mistakes but is there a top manager that hasn't? Benitez's mistakes have been relatively inexpensive in financial terms; I think the impact of, for example, Babel's under-achievement seems greater because of our lack of quality cover and squad depth.
ReplyDeleteMy view is that in Benitez we have someone who has improved the reserve and youth systems, and we have someone who fights hard on behalf of first-team resources, and we have someone who needs a couple fo seasons of club stability and reasonable financial resources before we can properly judge his progress. For me it's not a matter of will he leave, it's will we be able to keep him. If he goes, key backroom staff will probably go, including the Youth Team manager we/Benitez prised from Barcelona. And who will come to a club that cannot keep one of Europe's top managers? What replacements of equal or higher quality would come to a club in our financial straits? Mourinho, Hiddink, Capello? No chance. We'd struggle to get an O'Neil (not in the same league as Benitez in my opinion) or a Hodgson. Would Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal lose their so they can bring in O'Neil or Hodgson? No, they wouldn't.
And our owners? I depair.
When Moores and Parry first discussed the sale to Gillet and Hicks, it was emphasised that any money borrowed to enable the puchase would not be placed directly against the club in the way that the Glazier family funded the purchase of Man Utd. In a subsequent press conference the Moores/Parry assertions were confirmed by Gillet and Hicks.
So, I don't understand why the contract of sale didn't spell out the financing rules. If G&H wouldn't agree to buy with such terms in the contract, then the deal should have been aborted.
If anyone wants to see the full extent of G&H on LFC, they should read the latest analysis by ShareLiverpoolFC. The overall debt is there for all to see, Liverpool's vulnerability as a going concern is there for all to see, and (in my opinion) Gillet and Hicks's lack commercial muscle is there for all to see, as evidenced by the high rates of interest applied to the loans.
I may well be wrong - and I'd happily accept firm evidence to the contrary - but it seems to me in this G&H ownership deal and potential sale that the only Liverpool element who will not lose financially will be G&H.
@hunS. And you think Jose will come to liverpool with the Yanks in ownership with just 15/20 transfer kitty , dream on
ReplyDelete@Jay, I am not saying I want rafa to stay at all cost, But i will be MORE than happy if FIRST the Yanks will leave
Did i imagine the losses of £55m declared in LIVERPOOL'S accounts?
ReplyDeleteIf these losses relate to the parent company, why are they in LIVERPOOL'S accounts?
The owners are raping this club, and your attempt at building internet traffic on this site by holding opposing views to those of every match going Red is frankly pathetic.
Mind you, what would you know about what REAL Liverpool fans think, you've never been to Anfield.
I don't get the comparison. The owners AREN'T supposed to be costing the club money??? They're supposed to be PROVIDING the club with money.
ReplyDeleteBoth the owners and Benitez need to go. But of course the owners have made sure that we can't even afford to do that!
Strange convoluted post. Get rid of Benitez now and the club still isn't equipped to progress. Get rid of the owners and there may be light at the end of the tunnel.
It was Paco Ayesteran
ReplyDeleteRafa may be a very good tactician, but he is a poor man-manager, he is politicking all the time and he does silly things just to prove his point, at least that is the impression I get since 2007. Not to forget that he constantly plays players out of position. Lucas, for example, was described by Rafa himself as a box to box player. Why isn't the lad hardly allowed to leave his own half then? And Mark Gonzalez. Rafa described him as the best thing since sliced bread. He didn't exactly convince me in his few appearences for us.
ReplyDeleteRafa isn't the only person to be removed from our club, but I don't think he can take us any further.
Strange convoluted post. Get rid of Benitez now and the club still isn't equipped to progress. Get rid of the owners and there may be light at the end of the tunnel.
ReplyDeleteagree 100% good post
Well Jaimie...WE ALL KNOW BY NOW, HOW MUCH YOU LIKE RAFA....nough said.
ReplyDeleteYNWA
thekop, I don't think someone said we should keep H & G. Why are you making that up? Doesn't exactly give credibility to what else you say.
ReplyDelete<span>
ReplyDeleteWelcome back JK.
If you’re going to blame Rafa for the financial losses made this season because of team performance and failures in the PL, CL and FA Cup then surely you have to also commend him for performances in the past 5 seasons; where we’ve had better than expected performances in the CL and top 4 finishes. Using your own argument, Rafa has made Liverpool much more money than he has lost.
I appreciate that qualification for CL was different in the past but that’s not the issue here. Every year under Rafa we have not only qualified for the Champions League, but we have got though the group stages getting every season until this season.
04-05 - Winners
05-06 - First knock out
06-07 - Finalists
07-08 - SF
08-09 - QF
I do not have the time or inclination to find out how much money this has made Liverpool but basing it on what you have written about he has made roughly £30-35m a year through the Champions League alone.
Rafa can hardly be blamed for Parry's compensation, surely that would have been in his contract a long time before Rafa was manager.
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How old are you? Twelve? Thought so!
ReplyDeleteKraken - Smalling arrives NEXT season so why are you including him in Man U's quota as if he's had any impact on their fortunes to date??
ReplyDeleteTherefore you have proved my point that Rafa has had the opportunity to buy as many or more marquee signings under the Yanks than the rest of the Top 4 (joint 1st out of 4), so yes, those facts would suggest that we have spent enough to compete with the teams around us. The performances this season would suggest that Rafa just hasn't spent wisely, or gotten the most out of his players (finishing <span>7th</span>, behind all of those aforementioned teams, while also playing some of the most abject football in the league)
I compared us to the rest of the Big 4 as they have been our competition in the league up to this point, no disrespect intended to Spurs, Man City or anybody else in the chasing pack. Both Spurs and Man City would've been massive underdogs to achieve a Top 4 place from 07/08, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that they have been our competition alongside the rest of the "Big <span>FOUR</span>"?
Having the chasing pack outspend us over one/two seasons shouldn't have been enough for them to already overcome the quality we should've accumulated over them through the advantage of years of Champions League football anyway, especially seeing as they are typically overspending for players that the Champions League teams didn't want. Yet they have... :(
The world has been a better place since you stopped your constant ill placed barracking of the club the manager and its supporters. The clowns from america have brought our club to its knees creating far more financial problems than Rafa. I am not blindly supporting Rafa the time has come for him to move on I am not a member or supporter of SOS just a fan with a love for all things Liverpool. Your reporting or articles are totally biased in favour of the american clowns hated by sports fans everywhere and just trying to make a fast buck. You twist information to make it look rosy in favour of the american idiots. We are not fools they purchased the club without the means to do so and put the cost of this purchase onto the club FACT. The clowns have almost brought our club to the brink of financial ruin this is not the fault of Benitez it is poor management and terrible decisions made by them. it is well documented that they barely spoke to each other for 9 months how can that be good. Time for them all to go lets get someone at the helm who a) loves the club and understands what it is about b) has sound business sense and c) can provide some investment to move us forward. Let that person decide on the manager of the team but please not oneill, hodgson or mourinho none of which would be better than we have already got. Changes must improve not be like for like
ReplyDeleteSeen this in the bleacher report blows you out of the water
ReplyDelete<span><span>You don’t have to look too far for the main reason for the record loss: almost all of it is down to the huge interest payments on the loans that the Americans took out to buy the club, which has gone up 10% from £36.5m to £40.1m. Before the current ownership regime arrived, Liverpool never paid more than £3m interest in a year, as they had no need of substantial bank loans, but they have now had to shell out a total of £85.3m in interest since the takeover in February 2007. That is money that could have been used to strengthen the squad or go towards building a new stadium, instead of effectively going to the owners. It’s even more galling, when you see that this year’s increase in interest payable is due to further finance from Kop Football (Cayman) Limited, which happens to be owned by Hicks and Gillett. Financial analysts look at the interest coverage ratio, which shows how many times interest payable is covered by trading profit. Anything below 1.5x is regarded with suspicion, but Liverpool’s trading profit of £27.4m does not cover the £40.1m interest at all.</span></span>
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<span><span>The clowns have it I think by far as to who is costing the most money</span></span>
Gary - good comment, unlike most of the rubbish I'm reading here. I don't get how it's soooo easy for everyone to turn on Rafa and blame him for everything gone wrong this season. We have the 6th most costly team (Arsenal the exception) yet everyone excpects us to be champions. Umm do you guys want Jesus to come manage Liverpool? Cause he's the only one I know who can perform miracles.
ReplyDelete<span>
ReplyDelete<p>the owners leaving depends on them finding a suitable buyer willing to shell out £00m's. This can happen at any time but is out of the control of anybody at LFC bar the owners.
</p><p>
</p><p>On the other hand Rafa has already shown that the "Rafalution" was a failure, which is why I want us to move on from him rather than just giving him the opportunity to start over again. It is imperative that a new manager is given time to evaluate the squad and not be stuck with Rafa's transfers, much like Rafa was stuck with Cisse, plus changing manager later on would be a lot more disruptive to the team than changing ownership, so that is why I view this as just as pressing an issue if not more so than finding new owners. New ownership will happen in due course and rushing could just leave us with a case of deja vu, so I'd rather we took our time to find the right ppl this time and I do view changing manager as the more pressing issue.
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</p><p>btw it is my belief that if Rafa is only capable of meeting our targets if handed an exorbitant budget, that is a job that could just as easily be done by somebody else
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Well said Gary. Good point well made. In Europe this has been a great era under Rafa.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate point, will JK please tell us who he thinks is paying the interest in Kop Holdings? I would love to know his guess. Perhaps he has some "evidence" (which he is always keen on) that the Magic Man from Magic Land is paying it out of the goodness of his heart.
Or alternatively is could be leveraged against the future profits of LFC. I wonder which is right.
I regularly visit various sites on the tinterweb regarding Liverpool Football Club and no disrespet Jaimie Kanwar but you do seem to have a very negative attitude towards Rafa Benitez, now this season i have to say even i have questioned some of his antics but then i have looked at the whole picture objectively and i personally think he is a genius. Why i hear you ask well, it is well know that he loves Liverpool but he has seen and felt first hand what is going on - ie sell to buy, no stadium, complete and utter bullshit coming from the owners & no leadership, so what does he do? He forces the situation to come to ahead, all season people have been questioning rafas tactics and team selections alright you cannot help injures and the some of the time it did beggar belief but i believe it has all be done intentionally. If LFC continued in the Champions League they would manage but a drop down the league and into the Europa League would mean the club will disintergrate rapidly and another Leeds we could become. I believe given the right owners and the right funds Rafa could once more take LFC back to the top because year on year we have got better, i also remember the valencia team that totally destroyed us and lastly you dont become a bad manager/team overnight.
ReplyDeleteI'm forced to repeat always the usual, simply, football's concept: If You have the same team of the last season, except for Xabi Alonso, unless Xabi Alonso is Diego Armando Maradona, You can't end the season to seventh place in the table with nineteen defeats.
ReplyDeletePeople can't escape to reality for whole life in order to protect a manager due to personal affinity or because of the Liverpool's tradition (at the end of the day it was the same for Houllier), but football is based on facts, facts and in terms of football Rafa Benitez was a totally ruin as a coach of football.
Normally British people are largely known around the World for their pragmatism, and I feel very very shocked or surprised that in this debate an italian like me is largely the most pragmatic person.
Incredible.
if rafa was allowed to buy barry when he wanted to would we now be in this predicament? the sale of xabi alonso is undeniably the cause behind this woeful season and every1 says rafa was to blame as he tried to seel him for barry which caused rafa to leave. However, rafa was so right to do so... xabi was off the back of a terrible season in terms off performance and injuries - how was rafa to know he was then to have an amazing season the following one.
ReplyDeletegoing for barry at the time was the right move at is would have sustained his system (which was working brilliantly at the time) of a defensive cm and a passing cm, he was english, gerrard best mate and would have been there for the long run. Also xabi had always said he saw himself finishign his career in spain.
So if rafa was allowed to do what he wanted... we wouldnt be where we are now... and whos to blame for this? the board/the owners who didnt trust him and who pushed the purchase of keane instead who was a flop. this is als obviously how the power struggle occured which benitez obviously won.
what do other people think on this topic?
also i honestly believe people who think rafa is rubbish manager are bling... 2 cl finals in 3 years with an aweful squad.... it took fergie 22 years to make 2 cl finals with all the funding in the world, it took mourinho 7 years to make 2 cl finals with rediculous money at his expense.
success in the premiership is based on a top notch squad... benitez was always fighting a losing battle when he had to compete with man u and chelsea (and now man city) who can buy whoever they want and add 30m players to an already brilliant squad. the fact he finished second with only losing 2 games that year with really only a very good starting 11 and no squad (and let's not forget gerrard and torres were injured for much of that season) shows what a brilliant manager he is!!
anybody think these stats don't mean anything?
ha some correction for my my last comment ^^^
ReplyDelete"...every1 says rafa was to blame as he tried to sell him for barry which caused XABI to leave. Hwever rafa was so right to do so..."
and "i honestly believe people who think rafa is rubbish manager are BLIND" (not bling!)
hahah
Right move? Oh My God..
ReplyDeleteMaybe You Could to study football in a better way.
Gareth Barry is a poor player miles & miles far from Xabi's level of performance.
Only an inept manager can think to replace Xabi with Gareth Barry.
Fact.
You can if you actually overachieved last year, have certain players who are a year older, lose your top striker for most of the season through injury, have your midfield replacement out for most of the season through injury, have rivals such as Man City and Tottenham spend disproportionately more during summer and blah blah blah. By your logic Rafa was a great manager last year and a terrible one 12 months later. Everything that could reasonably gone well for the last half of last season went well but everything that could have gone wrong this season has. This season was a timebomb waiting to happen. Rafa has made a number of mistakes this year where the room for error was slim to none (not opting to trade Alonso for Robben and Schneijder plus cash, not making the purchase of a supplementary striker his prime transfer target instead of Glen Johnson and/or Aquilani, continously playing Lucas and Kuyt etc). However the slim to none bit lies squarely at the feet of Hicks and Gillett.
ReplyDeletericcardo your missing the point... AT THE TIME xabi wasnt class, he was aweful that season and injured for half of it... barry was pulling all the strings for england and made more sense for the long term... as i said, rafa wasnt to know how good he would be the following season and every1 now says how stupid rafa was to replace him with barry saying hes not on the same level but all based on that last seasons performance. im not saying barry is better than alonso... all im saying is that if rafa was allowed to get him - i realy doubt we'd be in this trouble now as we woud still have rafa's favoured system.
ReplyDeleteand desy... i agree with u over the trading aloso for those players and cash... however... after a season of just finishing second and only losing twice every1 was saying how we drew too many and didnt finish teams off... every commentator would say how rafa now has "his team" but need a world class right back (rmember when there was talk of alvez??). in that respect johnson was definately a right move as hes the kind of player who helps u win when you've got teams like stoke putting 10 men behind the ball and we're dominating possession... just imagine if we ould have kept xabi and therefore maintained that balance - with johnson there we would now be frightning... its just unfortunate the engine of the team left.
however i willa dmit that replacing him with aquilani was odd... because although he has showed promice as a class act further up the field and should defnately be utilized, from day 1 he was saying how he plays differently to xabi (i.e he attacks more). why rafa didnt go and get another deep lying centre mid bemuses me - unless there was no1 else.
hopefully this ever banega will come and solve our problems!
James - Rafa's comments made it seem very much like his plan was to use Barry on the left of midfield, rather than purely through the middle where he could've done a job (though not enough to elevate Liverpool to the level we should be aspiring to).
ReplyDeleteThis would have been a significant purchase on another expensive but aging player being bought to play out of position (much like Keane being bought as a playmaker!?) and would not have moved the team forwards at all. It was a lucky escape that we didn't manage to get him imo, not just for the fact that it spurred on Alonso, but also for the fact that we'd have been stuck with a bad signing with little resale value, unless his former club decided to do some charitable work for us like Spurs did with Keane
Ian - you are pathologically in denial. I have explained this point time and time again on various threads but you are seemingly incapable of understanding.
ReplyDeleteI don't follow United, so I've no idea who Smalling is. My figures came from transferleague.co.uk.
ReplyDeleteHow about we also include the marquee signing who've left the teams in question? If you're losing marquee players, surely the quality of your team is going down?
Chelsea (2 Players) : Wayne Bridge, Arjen Robben
Manchester United (1 Player) : Ronaldo
Arsenal (3 Players) : Toure, Adebayor, Hleb
Liverpool (3 Players) : Alonso, Crouch, Keane
Manchester City (0 Players) :
Tottenham (3 Players) : Bent, Keane, Berbatov
which gives us a marquee signing list (after deductions) of :
Manchester City (10 players)
Manchester United (6 players)
Tottenham Hotspur (4 players)
Liverpool (3 players)
Chelsea (2 players)
Arsenal (0 players)
Do you realise you have to go back to the 04/05 season to find the the next Liverpool marquee player (Xabi Alonso)? That means a total of 7 in and 3 out in 6 years. That's less than 1 player per season. In that same time frame (between 04/05 - 07/08) Chelsea had bought another 6 marquee players costing £135m. Man United had signed another 2 (net 1), Spurs another 2 (net 1), and even Arsenal had another 1 (net -2), leaving :
Manchester City (10 players)
Chelsea (8 players)
Manchester United (7 players)
Tottenham Hotspur (5 players)
Liverpool (4 players)
Arsenal (-2 players)
It's convenient to say 'the past few seasons', but Liverpool have been underspending against two of the top four since Abramovich came on the scene, and even more so since Abu Dhabi bought City.
We've had to sell to buy, and it has weakened the team immensely. Despite this, until this season we'd also outperformed Arsenal more often than not, and beaten Chelsea into third place last time out.
i really hoped you (JK) had crawled back into the hole you were hiding from. You preach fairness and seeing both side buy all you do is knife Rafa! HYPOCRITE
ReplyDeletethis is the problem when kids use the internet unsupervised
Repeat it one more time for me. I'm not sure I've got it yet. Who is paying the interest in Kop Holdings?
ReplyDelete"<span>Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:"</span>
ReplyDeleteSo because Benitez has done well in previous seasons, its now his fault when we dont do that well this season. Genius.
and jay... all rafa said was that he can play on the left as needed - i.e. it gives us more options. at the time... after xabis bad season, im sure would have been thinking that xabi could remain injury prone and continue his bad form. barry would controlled the centre mid in the wy he does for england and the way xabi did - which was just keeping everything ticking over and threading balls through.. allowing us to dominate possession and allowing the people in the final thrird to do the business. the fact he was "ageing" wasnt an issue - he was 27 at the time and xabi was one year younger... and alsonso had said he wanted to finish his carreer in spain anyway so we prob would have got more time out of barry.
ReplyDeletealso keane was the board's decision not rafa's and thats what induced the big power struggle. and he wasnt bought as a "play maker" he was bought as a striker to work off torres... he's worked off direct strikers like torres all his career.
i notice nobody's commentated on my point bout rafa making two cl finals in 3 years (2 finals and a semi in 4 years - and im convinced it would have been 3 finals had risse not scored that bizzare og) with an aweful squad whereas it took ferfie 22 years to make 2 cl finals and it's taken mourinho 7years and they both had mountains of money to spend.
surely this is valid evidence to what a good manager he is.
valid point towards ra
I understand your point but only a overly cautious manager would rather spend £11M on a right back (I've taken off the Crouch money) than a striker. I actually agree with Rafa that we needed more goals from midfield. In that case I would have snapped up Schneijder and Robben when Real were waving them in our face. I would rather sacrifice having a freebie right back with reserve team back up than a reserve team front man to replace a world class striker. An attacking manager would have seen it more that way than Benitez's need to have a defender first, attacker second.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that a campaign to remove Benitez at this point is foolhardy and clearly divisive to the club. There are no guarantees of a suitable replacement nor a better performance on the pitch. There is also a chance that it could lead to an exodus of our better players.
The exit of the owners is more likely to lead to team funding, a new stadium and if the results continue to slide, the financial scope to sack the manager (or sooner if you so wish). The primary goal for ANY positive change at the club is the exit of the owners. Campaigns to sack Rafa at this moment is an exercise in futility that divides the club more than the Daily Mail's take on the exact level of our debt, which by almost all accounts is prohibitive to the team's progression.
Anything else is a blue herring.
and jay... all rafa said was that he can play on the left if needed - i.e. it gives us more options. at the time... after xabis bad season, im sure would have been thinking that xabi could remain injury prone and continue his bad form. barry would controlled the centre mid in the wy he does for england and the way xabi did - which was just keeping everything ticking over and threading balls through.. allowing us to dominate possession and allowing the people in the final thrird to do the business. the fact he was "ageing" wasnt an issue - he was 27 at the time and xabi was one year younger... and alsonso had said he wanted to finish his carreer in spain anyway so we prob would have got more time out of barry.
ReplyDeletealso keane was the board's decision not rafa's and thats what induced the big power struggle. and he wasnt bought as a "play maker" he was bought as a striker to work off torres... he's worked off direct strikers like torres all his career.
i notice nobody's commentated on my point bout rafa making two cl finals in 3 years (2 finals and a semi in 4 years - and im convinced it would have been 3 finals had risse not scored that bizzare og) with an aweful squad whereas it took ferfie 22 years to make 2 cl finals and it's taken mourinho 7years and they both had mountains of money to spend.
surely this is valid evidence to what a good manager he is.
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/rafa-benitez-or-hicks-gillett-who-is.html#ixzz0oEMD7GJE</span>
I understand your point but only a overly cautious manager would rather spend £11M on a right back (I've taken off the Crouch money) than a striker. I actually agree with Rafa that we needed more goals from midfield. In that case I would have snapped up Schneijder and Robben when Real were waving them in our face. I would rather sacrifice having a freebie right back with reserve team back up than a reserve team front man to replace a world class striker. An attacking manager would have seen it more that way than Benitez's need to have a defender first, attacker second.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that a campaign to remove Benitez at this point is foolhardy and clearly divisive to the club. There are no guarantees of a suitable replacement nor a better performance on the pitch. There is also a chance that it could lead to an exodus of our better players.
The exit of the owners is more likely to lead to team funding, a new stadium and if the results continue to slide, the financial scope to sack the manager (or sooner if you so wish). The primary goal for ANY positive change at the club is the exit of the owners. Campaigns to sack Rafa at this moment is an exercise in futility that divides the club more than the Daily Mail's take on the exact level of our debt, which by almost all accounts is prohibitive to the team's progression.
Anything else is a blue herring.
Do you really believe that when the club is sold to new owners they are not going to put debt on the club, they are not going to put there hard earned money into LFC they are going to do exactly what the muppets are doing, there will always be interest on these loans and DIC would of done the same. The stadium will cost 300 milllion which will also be a debt get used to it.
ReplyDeleteThe difference being the muppets have not got a pot to piss in, to carry liverpool
football club any further and they no this which is why we are up for sale. Investment in the squad is just as important as building a new stadium and they go hand in hand. There is no abramovich on the horizon.
Which gets me onto the football side of things, we build a 65000 seat stadium,
To pay back the loan we would have to fill it, and if we play the football we played last season we wont even get close. Near the end of the season we could not fill anfield and it has been a while since this has happened, no coincidence.
Rafa is a good tactical manager and is good at working with what he has got but
he is the one bringing in players that are not suitable for the premier league.
This is my big problem with rafa, apart from alonso, torres, mascherano, johnson
there are too many players he has bought with not enough quality ( at least 25 first team players )and his philosophy always seems to be quantity not quality except last summer. When he sold alonso in the summer he had to get his signings spot on and aquilani never mind not being fit will never be in his class and he should of learnt from shopping in italy after Dossena and i know from contacts he bought him on the hear say of other italian managers. Rafa has also admitted that he has made a mistake with aquilani which is why he hasnt played him at all this season. Would not be surprised if he sells him. The amount of poor signings and players wanting to leave does nothing for the cohesion of the team
and certain players who have left have got better since. In 5 years we still have not got a left hand side. Man management is also a bigger part to the game now
than ever because of the ridiculous wages and contracts given out and this is not
rafas strong point. If rafa is given one more season i just hope he has learnt a lot from this season and the players will give him a chance because the body language this season said a lot especially away from home.
fred your being unrealistic about benitez' spending history. first all all with a very limited budget every year compared to manu and chelsea... and having inherited an aweful squad... he couldtn afford to pick quality over quanity... you have to buy for the short term in able to sustain your position in the league... then attract the right members slowly and thats exactly what hes done... i'd argue we now have arguably 4/5 players who are the best in their position in the leage... reina, masch in dm, johnson at rb, torres and gerrard. before benitez we had gerrard, a good (not great) hyypia, and the heart of carragher!!- without an abromovic u cant just go and buy your team over night!
ReplyDeletealso your totally undermining rafa's brilliant and shrewd business which is the first things the yanks picked up when they praised rafa. hes got some brilliant buys!!
reins - 6m, agger 5m, skrtle 6m, alonso 10m (sold for 30m!!), luis garcia 6m (virtually won us the champions league), momo sissoko - 5.5m, benayoun 5m, crouch 7m and sold for 11m, bellamy 6.5m solf for 7.5m, kyriarkos 2m, maxi - free, aurelio free, lucas - 6m (love him or hate him u cant ignore he's just played a full season for us and will definately be a great squad player to have - remember how shit fletcher used to be?), dirk kuyt 10m (give me another right mid in the prem who gets at least 11 - 15 goals a season and numerus assists who scores in every big game), torres - 20m (in this market is an absolute bargain)
and then glen johnson, and masch at around 17m each is definately money well spent!
aquilani for 17m - whos knows, looks like he could be very good.
i think all of this totally outways his few mis-daps...
i'd say are... josemi 2m (was rafa's first signing in the prem), morientes 6m (at the time was world class, he was top goal scorer in cl season before, just didnt work out), pelligrini free transfer, veronin free transfer (sold for 2m), pennent 6m (still think his critics were harsh - he was man of the match in the 2007 cl final!!), babel - 11m (this one is definately inbetween as hes scored some important goals for us against top sides was definately a worthy buy at the time!)
and sorry, keane wasn't rafa's buy it was the clubs and yet we still only lost 1m on him
you shoulnt pay too much attention to anti-liverpool tabloids!
fred your being unrealistic about benitez' spending history. first all all with a very limited budget every year compared to manu and chelsea... and having inherited an aweful squad... he couldtn afford to pick quality over quanity... you have to buy for the short term in able to sustain your position in the league... then attract the right members slowly and thats exactly what hes done... i'd argue we now have arguably 4/5 players who are the best in their position in the leage... reina, masch in dm, johnson at rb, torres and gerrard. before benitez we had gerrard, a good (not great) hyypia, and the heart of carragher!!- without an abromovic u cant just go and buy your team over night!
ReplyDeletealso your totally undermining rafa's brilliant and shrewd business which is the first things the yanks picked up when they praised rafa. hes got some brilliant buys!!
reins - 6m, agger 5m, skrtle 6m, alonso 10m (sold for 30m!!), luis garcia 6m (virtually won us the champions league), momo sissoko - 5.5m (sold for 11.5 - only left because masch came), benayoun 5m, crouch 7m and sold for 11m, bellamy 6.5m solf for 7.5m, kyriarkos 2m, maxi - free, aurelio free, lucas - 6m (love him or hate him u cant ignore he's just played a full season for us and will definately be a great squad player to have - remember how shit fletcher used to be?), dirk kuyt 10m (give me another right mid in the prem who gets at least 11 - 15 goals a season and numerus assists who scores in every big game), torres - 20m (in this market is an absolute bargain)
and then glen johnson, and masch at around 17m each is definately money well spent!
aquilani for 17m - whos knows, looks like he could be very good.
i think all of this totally outways his few mis-daps...
i'd say are... josemi 2m (was rafa's first signing in the prem), morientes 6m (at the time was world class, he was top goal scorer in cl season before, just didnt work out), pelligrini free transfer, veronin free transfer (sold for 2m), pennent 6m (still think his critics were harsh - he was man of the match in the 2007 cl final!!), babel - 11m (this one is definately inbetween as hes scored some important goals for us against top sides was definately a worthy buy at the time!), mark gonzalez 1.5m
and sorry, keane wasn't rafa's buy it was the boards and thats what sparked the power struggle with rick parry lost. and yet we still only lost 1m on him
you shoulnt pay too much attention to anti-liverpool tabloids!
fred your being unrealistic about benitez' spending history. first all all with a very limited budget every year compared to manu and chelsea... and having inherited an aweful squad... he couldtn afford to pick quality over quanity... you have to buy for the short term in able to sustain your position in the league... then attract the right members slowly and thats exactly what hes done... i'd argue we now have arguably 4/5 players who are the best in their position in the leage... reina, masch in dm, johnson at rb, torres and gerrard. before benitez we had gerrard, a good (not great) hyypia, and the heart of carragher!!- without an abromovic u cant just go and buy your team over night!
ReplyDeletealso your totally undermining rafa's brilliant and shrewd business which is the first things the yanks picked up when they praised rafa. hes got some brilliant buys!!
reins - 6m (best gk in the prem and 4/5 goladen gloves), agger 5m, skrtle 6m, alonso 10m (sold for 30m!!), luis garcia 6m (virtually won us the champions league), momo sissoko - 5.5m (sold for 11.5 - only left because masch came), benayoun 5m, crouch 7m and sold for 11m, bellamy 6.5m solf for 7.5m, kyriarkos 2m, maxi - free, aurelio free, lucas - 6m (love him or hate him u cant ignore he's just played a full season for us and will definately be a great squad player to have - remember how shit fletcher used to be?), dirk kuyt 9m (give me another right mid in the prem who gets at least 11 - 15 goals a season and numerus assists who scores in every big game), torres - 20m (in this market is an absolute bargain), dani pachecho for free (brought into the youth system by rafa)
and then glen johnson, and masch at around 17m each is definately money well spent!
aquilani for 17m - whos knows, looks like he could be very good.
i think all of this totally outways his few mis-daps...
i'd say are... josemi 2m (was rafa's first signing in the prem), morientes 6m (at the time was world class, he was top goal scorer in cl season before, just didnt work out), pelligrini free transfer, veronin free transfer (sold for 2m), pennent 6m (still think his critics were harsh - he was man of the match in the 2007 cl final!!), babel - 11m (this one is definately inbetween as hes scored some important goals for us against top sides was definately a worthy buy at the time!), mark gonzalez 1.5m
and sorry, keane wasn't rafa's buy it was the boards and thats what sparked the power struggle with rick parry lost. and yet we still only lost 1m on him
you shoulnt pay too much attention to anti-liverpool tabloids!
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/rafa-benitez-or-hicks-gillett-who-is.html#ixzz0oEV7Ojab</span>
desy we didnt need more goals from midfield... when we bought johnson we were off the back of our most fruitful goal scoring season ever and we got records points. that was with rafa's favoured system with 2 defensive centre midfielders, one tackler and one passer which has unquestionably been very succesful for us (2 cl finals, a semi final, a quarter final, and running man u to the wire). we needed more creativity in the final third to get rid of the stupid 0-0 draws - this was seen as moving forward at this point.
ReplyDeletejohnson gave us this and he's not just a "defender" and therefore seen as a defensive move... es probably one of the most attacking fullbacks in the world and has already outscored evra's whole carrerr at united and added alot of assists to.
unfortunately xabi leaving messed everything up as it de-railed rafa's tried and tested central midfield system... an answer to this is very important i think. ever banega would be great and he seems to want it. i hope its not just paper talk!!
I was going to write a more in-depth analysis of this post Jamie, until I realised how pointless that would be.
ReplyDeleteSeriously mate, you need to take a step back and have a think about what you're doing. You're making a fool of yourself.
Considering you are obviously in the 'anti-Rafa' camp, and considering how many of your regular readers are of a similar vein, don't you think it's strange the amount of criticism you get? Do you think other LFC sites (pro of anti-Rafa) need to enforce such a stringent comments policy and repeat its enforcement so regularly?
You are choking the opinion from this site simply to fit your hard and fast rules. Your policy might as well say "any comment that I cannot answer emphatically or that contravenes my personal opinion and agenda will be removed to prevent myself from looking stupid".
To use a political analogy, if "anti-Rafa" is the Tories, you are the BNP. Think seriously about the arguments you are making and whether they are really worth coming out of 'hiding' for.
ANY Liverpool fan that could even consider themselves worthy of being called such knows that H+G have been an absolutely abysmal appointment, and are likely to go down in history as such.
Whether or not Rafa is right for our club is second to that. And first thing's first, kick those money-grabbing anti-football businessmen out, and bring in someone who is willing to give the club the time and attention it deserves. Then, perhaps, we can discuss who is best to manage the club forwards. NOBODY could take this club forwards in its current state, so attempting to argue that Rafa has been more damaging (and therefore by removing him, without removing H+G we'd be better off) is pointless.
I have taken great pains to avoid contravening your comment policy, so would appreciate this post not being deleted, and even better, a response from your good self.
The State of Liverpool FC – An Idiots Guide
ReplyDeleteWhile "senior sources" at the club (Christan Purslow) try to facilitate a smear campaign against the manager, pretend everything is rosy at the club and briefs the press to headline the Rick Parry pay off on the day the club's financials are tactically released on election results day; here's what's really going on at Liverpool Football Club:
The figures released on Friday 8th May 2010 indicate that Liverpool FC is in net debt to the tune of £351m; an increase of £52m from last year’s figure.
A total of £233.996m is owed to RBS, in addition to an inter-company loan of £144.441m owed to “Kop Cayman”; a company owned by Gillett and Hicks based in the Cayman Island for tax reasons; a company that have loaned Liverpool FC £144.441m at an interest rate of 10%. This is the “own money” that Gillett and Hicks claim to have put into the club. In reality, they’re just charging the club 10% interest for lending that money through an offshore limited liability company that they aren’t even personally liable for – Liverpool FC are.
Liverpool FC are not paying the interest off on that £144.4m however. It is being charged as a “compound interest”, meaning the interest isn’t paid, but is instead “rolled up” to the grand total. For example, this year (if I’ve got this right):
£144.4m @ 10% interest = £14.44m payable this year.
Instead of paying that £14.44m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £158.88m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:
£158.88m @ 10% interest = £15.88m payable next year.
Instead of paying that £15.88m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £174.76m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:
£174.76m @ 10% interest = £17.76m payable next year.
Instead of paying that £17.76m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £192.52m etc etc etc...
The debt soon spirals out of control, as you can see; and don’t forget, this only concerns the £144.4m owed to Gillett and Hick’s Cayman Islands company – it doesn’t concern the huge £234m owed to RBS.
The financial figures released last week are for the 2008/09 season.
Those figures declare the club made a loss of around £52m for that year, due to the interest repayments on the loans and another £22m spent on the new ground; on what that was spent on we have no idea. There’s nothing to show for it anyway – and the total spend on the new ground now exceeds £50m. To put that into perspective – Sunderland managed to build the 48,000 seat Stadium of Light for a lot less than that. We have a few fences up at the back of the Anfield Road End!
Anyway – we made a loss of £52m that year despite finishing 2nd in the league and reaching the latter stages of the Champions League. The accounts also declared a profit made on player transfers (despite Purslow telling us we don’t need to sell players to balance the books and service debt, and Rafa being accused of wasting millions on players – the accounts prove otherwise).
CONT'D
What are next year’s figures (which will reflect the financial state we’re in today) going to look like with a 7th place league finish and an early elimination from the Champions League? We will also have an increased debt to service as explained above.
ReplyDeleteThen what about the figures for the next financial year when there’s no Champions League money at all coming in?
While the current owners are in place, we are going to continue to fall further and further into debt. We cannot meet the repayments on the loan as it stands now, and with our revenue due to fall with the lack of Champions League football, we’re on the brink of going into administration.
Anyone with hopes of making any signings in the summer or any future transfer windows needs a reality check. We are going to be very lucky to be hold onto the players we’ve got, never mind being able to bring anybody else in.
Gerrard and Torres don’t want to leave because they don’t like the manager (Purslow is feeding this story to the media to whip up the “Rafa Out campaign”); they want to leave as they know there is zero chance of any new players of any quality arriving at the club in its current state. They also know there’s zero chance of any top class manager coming to the club if Benitez decides to walk or is pushed; no manager worth his salt would come to work at the club under these conditions. They know the club is only going one way.
Until Gillett and Hicks are removed from the club, we’re only going to decline. It really is as simple as that. Nothing else matters.
And remember – these debts haven’t been accumulated through overspending in trying to buy success and compete like was the case at Portsmouth, Leeds and various other clubs – they are entirely generated through debt loaded onto the club just so Gillett and Hicks can own us and bleed us dry with expense claims, management fees, arrangement fees for every refinance deal and wasting over £50m of the club’s money on a non-existent new stadium.
This isn’t the result of bad individual club management as Richard Scudamore of The Premier League claims; it is the result of a leveraged buyout that has loaded the cost of buying the club onto the club to repay. Something The Premier League, The FA, UEFA and FIFA should be doing everything in their power to prevent ever happening again.
2007: £44m debt (£3m per year to service)
2008: £350m debt (£36.5m per year to service)
2009: £378m debt (£40m per year to service)
2010: <img></img>
Those are the levels of debt on the club, with it being only £44m before Gillett and Hicks bought the club. Therefore the club’s profits were able to be invested back into the squad, allowing us to compete on the pitch. We’re now crippled by debts we cannot service, when that £40m leaving the club each year in interest repayments should be being spent on new players.
£76.5m has left the club in interest repayments alone in the past 2 years – and in that time – the manager has not spent a single penny on new players. It’s been a sell to buy policy, with profits being made on transfers in the past few transfer windows as the books needed to be balanced; all while the clubs around us are spending to strengthen. How can we be expected to compete under those conditions?
The debt is growing with every passing day. As a result of the lack of investment in the squad (as well as bad luck with injuries / poor decisions / players out of form etc), we’re paying the price on the field with declining performances which will therefore reduce the club’s revenue even further – giving us even less money to service increasing debts. A vicious circle. It’s unsustainable.
[...]
You are yet another person who does not understand the difference between Liverpool FC (The CLUB) and Kop Football Limited (H+G's company).
ReplyDeleteLiverpool FC, The CLUB, paid ONLY 9.3m of interest, NOT 40.1m.
That is such a simplistic statement. It is not about whether I 'like' Benitez. It is not personal. Every argument I make about him is purely business, and legitimate.
ReplyDeleteYes, you imagined it because you are another person who fails to understand the reality of the situation. Your analysis oif the situation is utterly wrong.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool FC, i.e. the CLUB = LFC and Athletic Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
LFCAGL's loss for the last financial year was 16m.
For the hundredth time, IT WAS NOT 55m..
Why can you not understand this exceedingly simple distinction?
Good posts Jay and Anteater.
ReplyDeleteThekop - your post is typical of the kind of wildly inaccurate, ill-informed drivel that so many fans come out with. I don't whether it's because you're just confused, or - more disturbingly - you actually believe it.
1. as Jay says, Liverpool was *never* a midtable team in the Houllier era. Why lie about this? We were always a top 4 team under him, bar one season when we finished fifth (2003-4).
2. I have not said we should keep H+G - in fact, I have explicitly stated on several occasions in the last four articles that they should leave.
3. You are right about one thing thoug: I do prefer it if Rafa leaves. That is non-negotiable in my view.
As I said in the article, some of the loss will be mitigated b Europa League income, but not enough to make the loss acceptable.
ReplyDeleteCarrard - no, you did not contravene the comment policy. You made your points in the right way, and that's fine. Not that I agree with a word you've written, mind you ;-)
ReplyDeleteA quick not re the expenses: They are not included because they were not charged to the CLUB (LFCAGL) - they were charged to Kop Football Limited.
Carrard - no, you did not contravene the comment policy. You made your points in the right way, and that's fine. Not that I agree with a word you've written, mind you ;-)
ReplyDeleteA quick not re the expenses: They are not included because they were not charged to the CLUB (LFCAGL) - they were charged to Kop Football Limited.
Kraken - transferleague.com is not a realible source of info. The figurea are estimated/taken from news reports/fan forums, rather than official sources like the respective club accounts. Thus, it is completely unreliable.
ReplyDeleteExamples: Mascherano cost 18.6m, not 17. (1.6m for the loan period; 17m for the tansfer)
Robbie Keane cost 20m, not 19m.
Aquilani's bases transfer fee was 18m:
http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/11/alberto-aquilani-truth-about-his.html
This is also confirmed in the current club accounts.
etc.
That is just three examples. The differences might be small, but they are differences all the same, which means there are inaccuracies across the board.
You're right - the players must take some of the blame. However, as manager, the buck stops with Benitez. he is responsible for how the players perform/motivation/tactics/formation etc.
ReplyDeleteThat's correct, Phil. 10% might seem like a not, but it's not really. The banks would've charged LFC a lot more.
ReplyDeleteExample:
LFC paid 6.3m interest on bank loans last financial year. Total banks loans on the club (LFCAGL) = 36m. 6.3m is 15% interest.
Rafa should go. But so should the owners. The owners are dragging the club down. Rafa's tactics, among other things, bore me. Besides, I think we've seen how Rafa struggles to motivate players, and leaves them disillusioned and frustrated (i.e. Alonso, Riera, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Benayoun etc.)
ReplyDeleteWhere is villa in all this.
ReplyDeleteKop Cayman has lent money to Kop Holdings; that is where the money for intrerest payments on that company comes from. It does NOT come from LFC.
ReplyDeleteThe very fact that money has been injected from Kop Cayman is proof that H+G HAVE used their own money to pay off the interest. Where do you think money comes from, thin air?
The irrefutable facts at this point are:
* LFC has not paid ONE PENNY of interest towards debts on Kop Football/Holdings ltd.
* No dividends have been used to pay down any debt (none have been issued!)
* Kop Cayman has lent money to Kop Football - this money is what pays the interest/debts on Kop Football.
Gary - You're right: Benitez should be given some credit for earning the club money via good performance in the Champions League in the past. I do not dispute that. Despite the fact I want him out, I will always acknowledge the good things he has done during his reign.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I posted this article is try and bring some balance to the hysterical prevailing view, which seems to be that if we do not have lots of money to spend over the next couple of months then it will be the fault of the Owners.
It's just not true. As a result of the atrocious season we've just had, the club will take a major turnover hit, which obviously means that there may not be a huge amount of money available for transfers.
That is down to Benitez. not the Owners.
NO NO NO ..... I'LOVE LIVERPOOL FC with all my heart... and More... I feel everyone is barking up the wrong tree though...Yes the Yanks are wankers.. Thre businessmen.. there gonna go for the good deal.. e.g Liverpool... The REAL ARSEHOLES... Excuse thelanguage here... Are MOORE nad PARRY.. there the ones that sold LFC to Satan.. They may be hurting or maybe not... but all I know is that these to have a lot to answer for... Look back whne te Arabs tried to buy.. they refuded The REAL Liverpool supporters and opted for the Yanks... So People .. Ladys and Gentlemen of Liverpool FC ... Look behind you.. YOur aiming for te wrong two Maggots...
ReplyDeleteLiverpool are still for Ever...
The State of Liverpool FC – An Idiots Guide
ReplyDeleteWhile "senior sources" at the club (Christan Purslow) try to facilitate a smear campaign against the manager, pretend everything is rosy at the club and briefs the press to headline the Rick Parry pay off on the day the club's financials are tactically released on election results day; here's what's really going on at Liverpool Football Club:
The figures released on Friday 8th May 2010 indicate that Liverpool FC is in net debt to the tune of £351m; an increase of £52m from last year’s figure.
A total of £233.996m is owed to RBS, in addition to an inter-company loan of £144.441m owed to “Kop Cayman”; a company owned by Gillett and Hicks based in the Cayman Island for tax reasons; a company that have loaned Liverpool FC £144.441m at an interest rate of 10%. This is the “own money” that Gillett and Hicks claim to have put into the club. In reality, they’re just charging the club 10% interest for lending that money through an offshore limited liability company that they aren’t even personally liable for – Liverpool FC are.
Liverpool FC are not paying the interest off on that £144.4m however. It is being charged as a “compound interest”, meaning the interest isn’t paid, but is instead “rolled up” to the grand total. For example, this year (if I’ve got this right):
£144.4m @ 10% interest = £14.44m payable this year.
Instead of paying that £14.44m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £158.88m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:
£158.88m @ 10% interest = £15.88m payable next year.
Instead of paying that £15.88m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £174.76m. The following year this is then charged at a further 10% interest:
£174.76m @ 10% interest = £17.76m payable next year.
Instead of paying that £17.76m, it is rolled onto the total making the outstanding debt owed to Kop Cayman £192.52m etc etc etc...
The debt soon spirals out of control, as you can see; and don’t forget, this only concerns the £144.4m owed to Gillett and Hick’s Cayman Islands company – it doesn’t concern the huge £234m owed to RBS.
The financial figures released last week are for the 2008/09 season.
Those figures declare the club made a loss of around £52m for that year, due to the interest repayments on the loans and another £22m spent on the new ground; on what that was spent on we have no idea. There’s nothing to show for it anyway – and the total spend on the new ground now exceeds £50m. To put that into perspective – Sunderland managed to build the 48,000 seat Stadium of Light for a lot less than that. We have a few fences up at the back of the Anfield Road End!
Anyway – we made a loss of £52m that year despite finishing 2nd in the league and reaching the latter stages of the Champions League. The accounts also declared a profit made on player transfers (despite Purslow telling us we don’t need to sell players to balance the books and service debt, and Rafa being accused of wasting millions on players – the accounts prove otherwise).
What are next year’s figures (which will reflect the financial state we’re in today) going to look like with a 7th place league finish and an early elimination from the Champions League? We will also have an increased debt to service as explained above.
ReplyDeleteThen what about the figures for the next financial year when there’s no Champions League money at all coming in?
While the current owners are in place, we are going to continue to fall further and further into debt. We cannot meet the repayments on the loan as it stands now, and with our revenue due to fall with the lack of Champions League football, we’re on the brink of going into administration.
Anyone with hopes of making any signings in the summer or any future transfer windows needs a reality check. We are going to be very lucky to be hold onto the players we’ve got, never mind being able to bring anybody else in.
Gerrard and Torres don’t want to leave because they don’t like the manager (Purslow is feeding this story to the media to whip up the “Rafa Out campaign”); they want to leave as they know there is zero chance of any new players of any quality arriving at the club in its current state. They also know there’s zero chance of any top class manager coming to the club if Benitez decides to walk or is pushed; no manager worth his salt would come to work at the club under these conditions. They know the club is only going one way.
Until Gillett and Hicks are removed from the club, we’re only going to decline. It really is as simple as that. Nothing else matters.
And remember – these debts haven’t been accumulated through overspending in trying to buy success and compete like was the case at Portsmouth, Leeds and various other clubs – they are entirely generated through debt loaded onto the club just so Gillett and Hicks can own us and bleed us dry with expense claims, management fees, arrangement fees for every refinance deal and wasting over £50m of the club’s money on a non-existent new stadium.
This isn’t the result of bad individual club management as Richard Scudamore of The Premier League claims; it is the result of a leveraged buyout that has loaded the cost of buying the club onto the club to repay. Something The Premier League, The FA, UEFA and FIFA should be doing everything in their power to prevent ever happening again.
2007: £44m debt (£3m per year to service)
2008: £350m debt (£36.5m per year to service)
2009: £378m debt (£40m per year to service)
2010: ?
Those are the levels of debt on the club, with it being only £44m before Gillett and Hicks bought the club. Therefore the club’s profits were able to be invested back into the squad, allowing us to compete on the pitch. We’re now crippled by debts we cannot service, when that £40m leaving the club each year in interest repayments should be being spent on new players.
£76.5m has left the club in interest repayments alone in the past 2 years – and in that time – the manager has not spent a single penny on new players. It’s been a sell to buy policy, with profits being made on transfers in the past few transfer windows as the books needed to be balanced; all while the clubs around us are spending to strengthen. How can we be expected to compete under those conditions?
The debt is growing with every passing day. As a result of the lack of investment in the squad (as well as bad luck with injuries / poor decisions / players out of form etc), we’re paying the price on the field with declining performances which will therefore reduce the club’s revenue even further – giving us even less money to service increasing debts. A vicious circle. It’s unsustainable.
Liverpool FC is paying £110,000 [...]
2004/05
ReplyDelete£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.
Total bought: £27.5m
Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career
Total sold: £11m
A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.
2004/05 net spend: £16.5m
2005/06
£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.
Total bought: £26.73
Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.
Total sold: £14m
2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07
ReplyDelete£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.
Total bought: £27.15m
£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.
Total sold: £10.15m
2006/07 net spend: £17m
2007/08
£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal
Total bought: £70.7m
£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great [...]
2008/09
ReplyDeleteFree – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.
Total bought: £39m
£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.
Total sold: £36.5m
2008/09 net spend: £2.5m
2009/10
£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.
Total bought: £36.76m
£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.
Total sold: £36.75m
2009/10 net spend: £10,000
Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000
Total Net Spend: £83,876,000
So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.
The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.
A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.
2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts
Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.
ReplyDeleteLook at our net spend over the past 2 years!
We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.
Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.
Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on shite players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.
The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.
The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!
He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.
And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.
When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.
Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.
Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler's Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.
Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.
We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.
I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.
You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….
I think that this is a questionable point that you have made here. Liverpool FC has been underachieving commercially since the beggining of the Premier League, a large proportion of the blame can be attributed to Parry. Hicks and Gillette realised that the club was not fulfilling it's potential and it was only a matter of time before Parry was released. You also fail to ignore that if Parry was still at the club there would be no new shirt sponsor, as his replacement Purslow negotiated that.
ReplyDeleteObviously I mean 'fail to acknowledge', or just 'igore'!
ReplyDeleteHey Jamie,
ReplyDeleteApart from the facts and firues element of your article the one comment that stands out for me is the assumed expectations, the fact that prior to Benitez arriving those expectations under Souness, Evans, Houllier wouldn't have been there, that CL football or European football in terms of Quater finals or further were pipe dreams, yes we had the win in 2001 but in terms of the minimum expectation they were alot lower, what we as fans hoped for is another thing but the reality of what we expected were alot lower. With that in mind surely the man has to get credit for re-establishing LFC as a club expected to be in these positions and at one stage LFC being the top ranked team in Europe. Foret about the league where there are counter argument after counter argument but in relation to Europe our expectations are higher because the team and the cluib have maintained such high levels of success whereas before it was a bonus to get to a quarter or semi of a european comp.
My firend, bnefore Rafa bought Xabi, who knew about him, who though when he appeared with little Luis that he would be as good as he was in patches but all of a sudden we all know better than Rafa as to when the best time to offload him was...football fans (so called) really get your head examined
ReplyDelete"Liverpool were made for me and I was made for Liverpool, and I knew that the people who mattered most were the ones who came through the turnstiles." Bill Shankly................not blog writers
ReplyDeletei think keeping this team n getting two more players like ireland who will cost 5m,Klaas Jan Huntelaar and a left back will put team back on track.
ReplyDeletei think keeping this team n getting two more players like ireland who will cost 5m,Klaas Jan Huntelaar and a left back will put team back on track.
ReplyDeleteI have not read the comments so I will just say this... Your wrong... If you go by your own reasoning H&G actually cost us 46.9mil not Rafa... Our performances and failures on the pitch are a direct result of H&G... We have had to sell to buy under them, and you can only sell the players that are decent... This is why we have such a lack of squad depth and the quality of players we have now... That is not Rafa's fault... Having spent 2 mil net in the last 2 years is a joke considering the money coming in, but instead of investing in the team, money from players sales has been funneled to pay the debt... That is also not Rafa's fault... You can only attribute our bad performances to Rafa nothing more, and yes they have been dire at times, but you also have to look at the underlying reasons... If you want Rafa out that is fine, but putting him above H&G as the reasons why we are failing at the moment is complete madness... Rafa can go, but only after the cancer has been removed first...
ReplyDeleteJaimie, it's not about the absolute value of these players, just that they can be considered marquee signings (£10m+ in Jay's terms). I'm sure transferleague is broadly correct, so the numbers of marquee players are correct.
ReplyDeleteJay contends that Liverpool have bought enough marquee players to stay competitive with the elite premiership clubs. I think I've demonstrated that we haven't
Xabi Alonso was a leader of a strong Real Sociedad side and an international player really appreciated.
ReplyDeleteYou've hit the nail on the head. You have assumed that Cayman is funded by capital from H&G. Whereas this is very likely to be debt structured and therefore the money lent down IS debt. (my sincere apologies and I will concede if you have outlined this above but I don't think you have) Do you have proof that Cayman Co is a capital or debt funded company? If not I put it to you that you have been fooled by the complicated structure much as they intended. If Cayman is debt funded the point remains at some point the interest will need to be paid. The only company in the series of holdings co that makes any money is LFC.
ReplyDeleteThe keane wasnt bought by benitez is bollocks. He had agreed terms at the end of season previous that is fact and told the liverpool players in training 3 days
ReplyDeleteafter the season had finished. Barry one year left of his contract, 18 million
that is why we never bought him and he hasnt set the world alight at man city.
poor mans alonso. benitez must be regretting it now. He has admitted this year to senior players also he has made a mistake signing aquilani.
After Aquilani transfer Benitez said that Aloanso desire to leave was known since April. So why he didn't go for Barry who he wanted so much in May?
ReplyDeleteWasting money on Aquilani was a crime. The club got 3 players from Italy: Padelli, Dossena and Aquilani, all were disaster. If the first one was on loand the other two were bought for a hell of lot of money + hugh wages.
Last August Rafa didn't say anything about lack of money, he was happy with his new contract which is bigger than collegues from MU and Arsenal.
The man is full of excuses.
So we are a selling club now. continuity of players is very important so when they come into the team they no what to do. Lucas is a squad player and
ReplyDeleteshould not play 50 games a season. Some of the players you have named
above i would love them to still be there. Aquilani, the manager doesnt rate
and has said this to senior players. Dirk kuyt is a forward i believe. Why did
most of these players leave, manmanagement. He cannot motivate them
any more, and i no players will leave this summer ( big names ) if he is still
there.
By the way he did buy keane and told the players in training 3 days after the season had finished and has said on record he bought him but would not
have paid 20 mill. Dont believe the pro - liverpool forums.
KPMG the global accountants have stated that with the current debt levels at the club, " there remains a material uncertainty about the future of the club".
ReplyDeleteWhen Dvaid Morres waqs the owner and Benitez the manager, debt was £60 million.
Hicks and Gillett as owners and Benitez as manager, debt levels have soared to £351 million.
Simple question, simple answer the problem is HICKS and GILLETT
When he gets it wrong he moves them on for a profit. So you are admitting he did get it wrong. 27 points behind chelsea after finishing 2 nd place who,s fault
ReplyDeleteis that. Was alonso that good. And dont blame torres injury problems he was out
for long periods the season before. I agree the owners should have invested
more, see above.
If you go the games, are you a supporter who doesnt matter what type of
football you watch, I am not and we are terrible and i think the top players
feel like this too. Why do so many of them want too leave.
(Torres gerard babel masch benayoun )
When he gets it wrong he moves them on for a profit. So you are admitting he did get it wrong. 27 points behind chelsea after finishing 2 nd place who,s fault
ReplyDeleteis that. Was alonso that good. And dont blame torres injury problems he was out
for long periods the season before. I agree the owners should have invested
more, see above.
If you go the games, are you a supporter who doesnt matter what type of
football you watch, I am not and we are terrible and i think the top players
feel like this too. Why do so many of them want too leave.
(Torres gerard babel masch benayoun )
While I don't disagree completely with what you're saying I do believe that you are part of the 'Anit-Benitez Cult' and while there is "the reality that the Pro-Benitez Cult refuse to accept" I believe you're exactly the same only at the other end of the scale.
ReplyDelete"<span>failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez"</span>
Why? It's majorly the same team, same tatics, same everything that allowed Liverpool to score 4 goals against Man U, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Arsenal last season (o.k. two of them resulted in draws). I think some blame may lie with Rafa but when it comes to player performance no-one is more to blame than the player themself.
"<span>£900k this season" - i'm not too sure on you're calculation here, although I can't find my source site again i'm sure the prize money looked more like this </span><span>€200K for reaching last 32, </span><span>€300K for reaching last 16, </span><span>€400K for reaching 1/4 final and </span><span>€700K for reaching semi final. Not to mention TV money. This works out to more than £1.4m recouped.</span>
Rafa also made £4.39m profit this season with his transfers.
Even if we use your £37.5m total that still isn't as bad as the £40m+ intrest payments H+G are making each year - That's just intrest, that's on top of the normal payments they should be making.
actually he did talk about transfer money, that was one of the agreements made when signing his new contract - that he would have money available for transfers. However when the summer came he was told to sell players to get money for transfers
ReplyDeleteGod - how many times will people get it wrong?!
ReplyDeleteH+G ARE NOT MAKING 40m a YEAR IN INTEREST PAYMENTS FROM THE CLUB.
How many times do I have to prove the same point?!
It's even IN THE ARTICLE. AGAIN.
H+G made 9.3 in interest payments from the club in the last financial year. End of story. it is absolute. Irrefutable. And I have provided the evidence countless times.
Stop burying your head in the sand and trying twist info to fit what you *think* should be the truth.
it doesnt matter who paid it fact is it has been paid and has contributed to the massive loss and until the muppets sell will continue to cripple my club.
ReplyDeleteI would love to know why you deleted my other post perhaps there was something in it that was true but you didnt like. This is afterall the most biased anti LFC Site on the web
Mike - you are on the mark! Have to speculate to accumulate!!! Lack of initial investment cost us dearly! Didnt Rafa buy many players and actually make money when selling????
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for tomorrow's piece. Will it be holocaust denial? Or will Rafa have been 'irrefutably' seen on the grassy knoll in Texas?
ReplyDeleteThere are so many innacuracies and incorrect assumptions in this, i don't even know where to begin.
You are our compass Jaimie!
In any normal circumstances, I would agree that it was probably time for Rafa to move on and that he had taken us as far as he could.
ReplyDeleteBut, these are not normal circumstances - as of today: Club for sale, large debts, boardroom bickering, no Champions League football next season, no money to spend (not even guaranteed money if raised via player sales - see previous 3 transfer windows!)
If Rafa leaves, what decent manager in their right mind would want to come here with the above circumstances? (I say decent because the Jose's of this world would laugh at the prospect!)
I think that we should stick with Rafa until new owners come in at least. He has made a load of changes to the staff and academy which, going by the under 18's results in the last 10 games of the season and the fact that young players seem to want to come here (i.e. Sterling, Shelvey), look to be paying dividends.
With the prospect of no real money to spend until the sale of the Club, the reserves and academy are the only ray of hope and I think that Rafa is the best person 'in the current situation' to be manager.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI usually enjoy your blog, you generally tell it like it is and hit the nail on the head. But I really can't understand why you wrote this one. Its utterly preposterous and to be honest Jaimie its not just a stretch but actually quite beyond belief.
I mean, I think Rafa has got a lot of things wrong with his buys and substitutions, player relationships etc. But your attempt to blame him for any money liverpool failed to earn on one hand, while not crediting him with any money they did earn on the other, would imply that Liverpool would have to win every game and every trophy without ever buying a player just for him to get a balance of zero?
Hi Jamie,
ReplyDeletereally agree with a lot of this article, I thought Rafa wasn't capable of brining us the premiership back in 2007. Okay we got second last year but really, did anyone ever think we could win it???....we had a chance in Nov/Dec to pull away from the pack but Rafa's insistence of playing with two holding midfielders at home cost us points......anyway back to my question;
realistically who would you like to see take over from Rafa?.....
Mourinho?...I know he is/was a big fan of us under Paisley and more or less admitted in a Sky interview that he would have taken the Job, only we approached him after he had given his word to Chelsea but would he want to take over at such an unstable club (currently)
O'Neill?...great motivator but would he be able to attract top players...would he handle the, at times, unrealistic expectation?
Van Gael?...has only recently come back to prominence due to Bayern's run in the CL??......
I'll admit I like Rafa and would really like to see him succeed but I think things may have gone to stale etc.....
benitez is causing more harm to the club, true owners just as bad but this season ti wasnt the funds thats cost liverpool it bentiez;s bad tactics and stupidity, he uses tactics whihc relegation team uses that stupid 4-51 or 4321 thrash which crap like he is, if you lok at bentiez's managing record youll see he relegated or almost relegated many clubs before they sacked him on time something lvierpool failed to do, and his only success was a fluke win with valencia like liverpool 2005, after that bentiez just exposed himself until this season
ReplyDeleteHerecome the stats - brilliant analysis of rafa's spending... i've been aware of this for som time now but all the anti rafa peopl will chose to ignore such blatant evidence to support how good rafa is which shoul be enough to overide any slight clitches on his record... end of the the day he has turned an aweful team into one which has a world class spine and first 11 with very limited funds!!.... as i said earlier... we have 4/5 players who are the ebt in their position in the prem . reina (gk), masch (defensive cm), johnson (rb), torres (striker)and arguably gerrard in whatever position u want to name him under.
ReplyDeleteand fred yes xabi was THAT GOOD!! as i've mentioned earlier... he was the engine of the team and fitted perfetly ino rafa's system. even torres came out and said the pore season is all because xabi went. why h wasnt replaced propperly is the only issue... only thing that ican think of is that there wernt any onthe same level available and put his trust in lucas in that role... even though it hasnt worked... i think lucas will be a great squad player in the long run for it and when that void is filled (by banega or whoever), liverpool will be alot better for it.
and urs... you really should read earlier posts.... i've given in depth reasons to why he tried to tell xabi and how it was the right thing to do at the time... xabi was off he back off a very porr season and was crobbed for over half of it - how was rafa to know xabi would then have an amazing one! buying barry at the time was the right move as he would have been a better investment in the long run (xabi always said he wanted to finsihed his career in spain), he was english and gerrards best mate. this wold have kept rafa's system in midfield which has worked fantastically for us and we wouldnt be where we are now!
and when will people accept rafa wasnt behind the keane purchase!!! rick parry and the board were behind it and backed that over the purchase of barry... and thats whagt lead to big power struggle as rafa knew it was the wrong move... ever since rafa's been given almost total control over player spending - shrewd businessmen like G+H would not entrust that much funding in any fool!
we replace the void left by xabi with a player of the same mold (banega has me really excited) and then we go back to how everything was. f this happens we'll be even stronger than we were when we finished second as we have more depth at the back, and more going forward - we only have gerrard torres kuyt benayoun and babel to rotate that season.... now we'd have the same plus maxi plus jovanovic plus aquilani and it seems another winger of some sort is coming. and dnt forget the other dimension johnson adds to the attacking side of our team!
now even though i've just mapped out all these huge postives im sure some fool is going to come online and point out a tiny point and use it for a reason to why rafa should go... like "he has bad management skills"!. this is totally outweighed by everything else he's done!
as i keep saying... 2 cl finals in 3 years. its took fergie 22 years to do the same and mourinho 7 years. both those managers have had huge amount of money to spend from day 1. rafa's had peanuts and nherited an aweful squad!!!
sale of xabi is behind this woeful season. even torres came out and said so. thats not rafas fault though... he was right to go for barry as at the time xabi and a very bad season and was cropped for half of it, rafa wasnt to know he'd then have a great one. if the board backed rafa we wouldnt be in this mess. replaceing the void left by xabi is essential (ever banega really excited me) and then we'll have more attacking option... the year we finished secnd all we had was torres, gerrard, kuyt, yossi, and babel to rotate, now we would have the same, plus maxi, aquilani, jovanovic, and it seems another winger of some kind is on the way plus dont underestimate the other dimesion johnson brings to the attacking side of things.
ReplyDeleteyou people who doubt rafa are fools. 2 champions league finals in 3 years... it took fergie 22 years to do the saem and it took mourinho 7... both tose guys have had huuuuge amounts of money to spend and rafa had peanuts and inherited an aweful squad. also don't forget another semi final where im sure we would have made the final if it wasnt for riise's own goal. mourinho is not the answer to us... he'd be geat at a team where he has lots of money behind him and a formed squad as he is a geat man-motivater... can't see him being anywhere near as effective without all that though.
the spending analysis which was posted by "here's the stats" (look on the second page) - shows you just how brilliantly rafa has spent. all this is more than enough evidence to show how great a manager is and that he should definately stay. but im sure some more fools will come on this and chose to ignore such blatant evidence and hone in on a much smaller thing and use that to say he should go - like his bad man-management skills!
key phrase "from the club"...
ReplyDeletewho is costing Lfc more money? this is a rather bizzare question?
ReplyDeleteIn fact lets expand it a bit more-
the credit cruch was rafs fault,
the tussami was rafas fault,
as is globall warming,conflict in the middle east,ticket price rises, and that puncture u get when already late.
damm it rafa every thing is your fault.
or am i just stretching the point a little!?
I have to wonder if any of the usuall media outlet would come up with this analogy, is the name of the game for the clubs employess,executives,associated parties etc,, to be in a competition to be frugal with any outlay? I think not.
The writer here has a well known agenda well thats ok.But when in pursuit of this I have to say based on this fairmindedness and an even handed approach appear to be clouded.
Im sorry this kind of analogy dosent fly with me, it seems a nonscence and I cant take it too seriously
If H+G are having to make £40m intrest payments with anything related to LFC even if it isn't directly through Liverpool FC but rather through Kop Football Ltd then that's £40m per year they're not investing into the club, putting much more pressure on Rafa AND the players (not just Rafa, it doesn't all rest with the manager) to perform and bring in money to make a profit.
ReplyDeleteThere's that famous phrase, 'you have to spend money to make money' and the'yre not spending they're having it taken off them because of stupid decisions they've made.
How can you expect a manager to bring in new players and getting rid of the poor performers without being given extra money - you can't get rid of a £2m player and bring in a £6m one without investment from the owners
Again I repeat: WHY ARE THE OWNERS COSTING THE CLUB MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE??? This whole comparison is bunk. The owners are supposed to be giving us money not costing us money! What a pointless post. Please don't get suckered into this inane comparison Liverpool fans.
ReplyDeleteEven if you are anti-Rafa the owners actually support the status quo on and off the pitch. Rafa's going nowhere until the owners go so whatever side of the fence you sit on the speedy exit of the owners is number 1 priority.
Only someone who wants to provoke division in the ranks would put forward such a detailed argument about what is essentially nonsense with bells on.
LOL
ReplyDeleteAll this is very much clutching at straws, you can not take in to account loss of prize money as a loss on to the club, how much has fergie loss united by only getting to the CL final in 20 odd years? I bet that is higher than any manager.......
ReplyDeleteThis a a poor article and smells of desparation
Where are you going with this mate, a lack of founds has played a masive part of this season, in fact we didnt have any funds, we had to sell to buy and just remeber the money from the sales had to go in to paying wages to, that why we had to take a gamble on Aguilani as his wages was less than someone else in the same bracket.
ReplyDeleteBenitez's records in amongst the best in Europe, In the alst 10 years he has been to the Uefa cup final twice, champions league final 3 times, la liga winners twice, runners up one, Premier league runners up, League cup runners up, Fa cup winners, Spanish cup winners, spanish cup runners up.
Show me a manager that has done better in the last 10 years but with the same funds ?
This is exactly I say that Jaimie is delusional and slavish to an agenda that is no longer feasible. The whole Get Rafa Out campaign cannot be justified practically or financially under the current ownership. As irrational as the In Rafa We Trust movement is (although the loyalty shown is somewhat commendable) the Get Rafa Out is equally irrational. The only difference is that as its Rafa's contract and not the fans keeping him in a job, and the alternatives for managers that can progress are slim to none the IRWT does little more damage than irritate at the moment. The equally irrational GRO campaign can cause further instability, lack of confidence in the team and encourage our best players to leave a divided club. Keep with him until we get new owners (we have little other choice!) and then resume the debate upon their arrival. Jaimie you should have done us all a favour and ceased fire until practical alternatives were available i.e on the arrival of new owners
ReplyDeleteIrrespective of the ownership debacle, Benitez needs to go. A new manager could get more out of the likes of Torres, Gerrard et al.
ReplyDeleteMore questions for your consideration: Who is costing Liverpool more money:
ReplyDeleteRafa Benitez or Sir Paul McCartney?
Rafa Benitez or Carla Lane?
Rafa Benitez or Billy Boswell?
Rafa Benitez or Jimmy Tarbuck?
Rafa Benitez or Samantha from Sex And The City?
Add on if you have any other relevant comparisons on the devasting effect Rafa alone has had on the club...
Kraken - it's nice to see you admit that you don't really follow football too much, so I don't waste too much time in this debate. Smalling is a transfer from Fulham to Man U that was named during the season, amidst much shock due to his quick rags to riches rise, but will not go through until the close season.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, it's funny to see you keep shifting the argument - the Yanks arrived in 07/08 so what happened before then isn't anything to do with them, and why I started my original comment from that point. Taking into account the +/- of marquee players, Liverpool still rank 2nd among the top 4 over this time period behind Man U, yet have fallen behind each of the other 3 considerably in performances on the pitch.
So no, you haven't demonstrated why we've fallen so far behind the other "elite" Premiership clubs (which Tottenham, Man City, Villa and anybody else are aspiring to join but can not yet claim to be a part of).
So, if you anyway don't believe or agree with what other peopla are saying, then this discussion is useless. Because it is obvious that nobody can compare the expenses of an owner and a manager. There would be so much more figures which would have to be included and which people from outside the club can not know! One point is the stadium: There were expenses for the stadium of 45m £ plus the revenue which is missing. So that figures alone are much higher than Rafas spending... It is just not fair on both sides to compare them!!!
ReplyDeleteJust one quick point about what you said above: That you do "not agree whith a word" i have written. If you really can not agree with anything i have written, then you are showing how subjective your view is... At least you should realise the point about the image of LFC! You know, the image is it, what earns a club sponsoring contracts, etc.
About the expenses: Then who is paying for Kop Football Limited?
??? And what more do you want from Torres and Gerrard other than an injury free season? Maybe if we employ a manager/soothsayer it will be achievable. Also you convenient omit the £16M price tag for sacking Rafa, possibly £16M more than the new manager's transfer budget. Which leads me to my next question: other than the much coveted Sam Allardyce how many top class managers would be prepared to accept a position with no Champions League football, no money to spend and the imminent departure of the people who actually employed?
ReplyDeleteOh wait a minute... JURGEN KLINSMANN!!! Sorry Jaimie but a Ian Holloway style pre-season knees up is not the tonic to take us past the likes of Man City and Spurs. The club needs investment first and foremost. The players including Torres have stated this themselves. Anything less is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. And all you'll be doing is waving a calculator in the air with evidence that we aren't sinking as fast as all us deluded brainwashed passengers think.
??? And what more do you want from Torres and Gerrard other than an injury free season? Maybe if we employ a manager/soothsayer it will be achievable. Also you convenient omit the £16M price tag for sacking Rafa, possibly £16M more than the new manager's transfer budget. Which leads me to my next question: other than the much coveted Sam Allardyce how many top class managers would be prepared to accept a position with no Champions League football, no money to spend and the imminent departure of the people who actually employed?
ReplyDeleteOh wait a minute... JURGEN KLINSMANN!!! Sorry Jaimie but a Ian Holloway style pre-season knees up is not the tonic to take us past the likes of Man City and Spurs. The club needs investment first and foremost. The players including Torres have stated this themselves. Anything less is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. And all you'll be doing is waving a calculator in the air with evidence that we aren't sinking as fast as all us deluded brainwashed passengers think.
Thanks for you knowledge!
ReplyDelete<span>Please stop your continuous ignorant shoot on Rafa's transfer record without including also the players currently in the squad.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the formula to calculate a manager's NET spend should be:
(Money spent on purchase + Inherited squad value + squad salary) - (Money received from sale + Current squad value + Prize money). Its just common sense.
That's why you don't include Fergie's money well spent on Veron before Rafa come. That's why you don't see who the squad value of MU drop after selling CR. That why you don't see Rafa's team earned CL prize money for 4 years while Hotspur had not.
You are half blind. <span></span></span>
No. The formula for calculating gross/net spend is contained in CLUB ACCOUNTS:
ReplyDeleteIntagible fixed assets (= players)
Additions - disposals = net spend.
Just because you want your own method of working it out that works in benitez's favour doesn't make it accurate.
Over 6 years, Benitez's record in the transfer market is poor. Success in the transfer market is NOT determined by net spend, it is determined by the effectiveness and specific measurable imact on the club's success of the players he has bought.
ReplyDeleteNet spend is the most lame argument going for justifying Benitez's failure in the transfer market. It basically allows people to condone huge losses, i.e.
* We bought Keane for 20m
* We sold him for 12m
* That's okay though - he only acutlaly cost us 8m!
Spurious reasoning. This ignores the fact that:
* We made a loss of 8m.
* We lost the chance of buying some other player for 20m who could have fitted in and made a difference.
* We lost the potential impact of another 20m player, someone who could have helped us improve.
Net spend - excuses for mistakes.
If you intend to discount a team (Manchester City) who have spend more (£250m+) in 2 years net on players than Benitez has spend gross during his entire tenure as a direct competitor then there really is no point in continuing any discussion. Whether you want to agree or not, recent expenditure by both City and Spurs has taken them well past our owners' investment in Liverpool, the result of which is our placing this season. United continue to outspend us, and Chelsea have proven this term that their extraordinary spending spree in earlier years built them a squad capable of winning the title.
ReplyDeleteU don't know wot you're on about mate,u talk about lost cash for not gettin to latter rounds of champs lge and fa cup?wots all dat about?where were u when we were winning these trophies?what did uhave to say about rafa then?we've had our worst season in donkeys years but Dont bring up pointless rubbish just cause u have a hard on to get rafa out of the club,footy"fans"are a fickle bunch aren't they?where were all these people 12 months ago when we were spanking real n utd playin arguably the best football in Europe?ya's were singin rafas name back then,he deserves one more season to put it right,enuff with the short memories 8-)
ReplyDeleteyawn - ok ok ok Man City should have won the Premiership already since they outspent the "Big 4" over the last couple of years(!)
ReplyDeleteSpurs also should've overtaken us and made it a three horse race to the title against Man U.
But after all that, Liverpool should still be 4th though right??
Why, with the best manager around, have we fallen to 7th in the league even though spend whether it be on marquee players, gross spend, net spend or any other argument Rafa apologists may want to use, should see us comfortably amongst the Top 4 still, whether that be during the reign of the Yanks or extended to Rafa's entire reign?? The only difference being that the managers at those other clubs have paid with their jobs for spending the money and failing to deliver, whereas Rafa continues merrily along, with the audacity to even suggest that he has overachieved!
Excellent post, Jay. Overachieved indeed - Benitez is a master of manipulating impressionable fans. Ever after our worst season for probably 50 years, they still worship. Unbelievable.
ReplyDeleteNew item from Jay on JS-Kit: Moderation
yawn - ok ok ok Man City should have won the Premiership already since they outspent the "Big 4" over the last couple of years(!)
Spurs also should've overtaken us and made it a three horse race to the title against Man U.
But after all that, Liverpool should still be 4th though right??
Why, with the best manager around, have we fallen to 7th in the league even though spend whether it be on marquee players, gross spend, net spend or any other argument Rafa apologists may want to use, should see us comfortably amongst the Top 4 still, whether that be during the reign of the Yanks or extended to Rafa's entire reign?? The only difference being that the managers at those other clubs have paid with their jobs for spending the money and failing to deliver, whereas Rafa continues merrily along, with the audacity to even suggest that he has overachieved!
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Jaimie you've put NET spend as an accurate depiction of transfers in one comment and then contradicted yourself by saying NET spend is an excuse, make your mind up!
ReplyDeleteNET spend isn't an excuse, it's the formulae ALL businesses live by, the bottom line is the most important factor. And Keane wasn't sold for £12m total, he was sold for £12m rising to £16m, so it's a £4m loss at worse not an £8m loss, you're a stickler for accurate reporting after all!
You're reasoning is simply delusional, there's no way of knowing a prolific striker like Keane would come to Liverpool and fail, just like SAF had no idea Berbatov would struggle so much. Regardless of scouting and a player's ability, you don't know how they'll work out for YOUR team until they're playing for you. So saying we lost the chance of buying a potentially successful £20m is plain daft.
As the saying goes "If my Aunty had a cock she'd be my Uncle".
Jaimie you've put NET spend as an accurate depiction of transfers in one comment and then contradicted yourself by saying NET spend is an excuse, make your mind up!
ReplyDeleteNET spend isn't an excuse, it's the formulae ALL businesses live by, the bottom line is the most important factor. And Keane wasn't sold for £12m total, he was sold for £12m rising to £16m, so it's a £4m loss at worse not an £8m loss, you're a stickler for accurate reporting after all!
You're reasoning is simply delusional, there's no way of knowing a prolific striker like Keane would come to Liverpool and fail, just like SAF had no idea Berbatov would struggle so much. Regardless of scouting and a player's ability, you don't know how they'll work out for YOUR team until they're playing for you. So saying we lost the chance of buying a potentially successful £20m is plain daft.
As the saying goes "If my Aunty had a cock she'd be my Uncle".
No - I did not say that net spend was 'an accurate depiction of transfer' You have misquoted me. That is something I would *never* say as I don't believe it. In my other comment, I merely pointed out the formula used in club accounts for calculating net spend. I stated a fact. That is a millions miles away from what you stated I said.
ReplyDeleteA manager turning a #4 ranked team to a #7 ranked team is not a crap manager? You are the most "logical" person in the world.
ReplyDeleteJamie and Jay, you appear to have gone off topic and decided to congratulate each other on your shared desire to see Rafa leave.
ReplyDeleteGetting back to the topic Jay raised originally, why didn't we finish 4th given our marquee spending? As I've mentioned we've been recently outspent by 3 clubs, and Chelsea had a massive head start on us in terms of the quality of their squad pre-Americans. That would under normal circumstances put us 5th. However, we've had a bad season, injuries have taken their toll and some decisions have gone against us (a beach ball goal!), yet we still managed to finish just 4 points off 5th.
Am I satisfied with our performances this season? No. However, the main failing at the club lies with the owners, who have for two seasons required us to sell to buy, weakening the side each year since their initial splurge on players.
Should any more of our marquee players leave this Summer it will not be because of our manager, it will be due to the uncertainly surrounding our club at board level.
Same old people coming up with the same old arguments that H+G are the single problem with the club. Yes it will cost a lot of cash to get rid of him, yes some players will leave and yes it may hurt us for the next couple of years but can you honestly say that you'd rather have Rafael Benitez as the manager of our football club for another 4 years? To come back to what some posters have said re where were you when we were winning trophies, well actually people like Jamie and I were saying then that his tactics were too negative and regressive, and soon all the fun would stop. Low and behold this is the culmination of all Rafa's efforts.
ReplyDeleteLets look at some of his signings and players sold.
Alonso - Great signing, arguably the best Benitez made. So what does he do to a player obviously influential to the team? Basically tries to sell him for £11m to Juventus to sign Gareth Barry for £18m....a fee City paid less than half of to actually sign the player! Alonso then goes on to have his best season in a Liverpool shirt and promptly leaves the club thanks to the treatment Rafa afforded to him. That IS a fact given what he said when he left the club.
Reina - Again sensational signing and arguably as important as Alonso. So far all is well on that front, so well done Rafa.
Aquilani - The least said the better. I am one of the fans actually who would like to see him stay and get a full season in place of Lucas....if Rafa stays will this happen? Not sure. All in all thought, so far Aquilani has been the mother of all cock-ups in the transfer market, never hitting the hights he did in his Roma days. Again I'm laying the blame at Benitez's door seeing as he's almost point blank refused to play him ahead of Lucas.
Keane - See Aquilani.
Bellamy - Okay he didn't perform as well as he did for Liverpool as he did for lackburn or as he has this season for City....why is that? Managerial style? Probably yes as Sparky seems to be able to get the best out of him, so why can't Rafa? Also his refusal to sub him on in the CL final against Milan was testament to his negative defensive tactics.
Riera - Largely a waste of money, and it was very very interesting to hear what Riera had to say about Benitez earlier this season. Is any more proof necessary to show the players don't like Benitez?
Kuyt - I don't often swear but that guy is the biggest bag of shit I've seen play football in my life. Yet he plays each and every game...lunacy!
Lucas - WOW how can one man has so little talent? Well in saying that, Kuyt actually takes the cake....at least Lucas can see a 5 yard pass and make it. Not much consolation however.
Maxi - Utter waste of time, and seems to have totally demoralised Benayoun.
These are just a few of the signings he's made. With the exception of Torres, Reina, Mascherano and Glen Johnson (jury still out) he has simply lurched from disaster to disaster in the transfer market, spending upward of £200m in the process.
Benitez is long past his sell-by date as Liverpool FC manager. Sack him now and get someone with half an idea of how to pick your best team. I would without question like to see Martin O'Neill as manager....Mourinho would be better but that's very unlikely. At this rate though it looks like we'll be offering Alan Pardew the role of getting us back into the Premiership once we've been relegated in 4 years time.
Benitez out now!!!
I haven't gone off topic at all - just followed through on your logic at each point to prove that Rafa has underachieved, whichever way you choose to break down Liverpool's spending power during his reign.
ReplyDeleteIn the same manner that Chelsea had a headstart over Rafa's Liverpool, our squad had a headstart over Tottenham and Man City's + had the added benefit of being able to offer prospective players Champions League football, so why should that advantage ignored??
and let's not harp on about injuries eh - ALL of the big four has suffered injury problems this season, and it could be argued that they have had it worse than us. They've just been able to cope better than us and not been so desperate to search for excuses at every opportunity
No Nick we aren't saying that we want Rafa in charge in 4 years. We are saying that while the process of selling the club is ongoing we treat Rafa as the caretaker manager until we can actually afford to sack him. At a time when are best players are being touted as leaving to our rivals we need to ensure that we are not rudderless until new ownership come in and change the management structure. There is no blanket option that it's either Rafa goes now or Rafa stays for 4 years. That's a falsified option and you know this. It's merely a question of sequence. One sequence we can afford and one sequence we can't. The one thing that affects the two options is the swift departure of the owners. Without we are stuck with the unaffordable option which under the stewardship of Hicks and Gillett is hardly an option afterall.
ReplyDeleteFace it, the only people preventing Rafa from getting sacked are the owners themselves. Get them out and you may have your wish.
Our worst season for 50 years? Hyperbole much? There are worse seasons in our recent history:
ReplyDelete09/10 - We finished 7th with 63 points from 38 games (1.65 per game), and +28 goal difference
92/93 - We finished 6th (on goal difference from 8th), getting 59 points out of 42 games (1.4 per game), and a massive +7 goal difference
93/94 - we finished 8th (on goal difference from 9th) with 60 points from 42 games (1.43 per game), GD +4
98/99 - we finished 7th with 54 points from 38 games (1.42 per game), GD +19
03/04 - we finished 4th but with only 60 points from 38 games (1.58 per game), GD +18
04/05 - we finished 5th but with only 58 points from 38 games (1.53 per game), GD +11
We've achieved a better points score this year than in others where we finished higher up the table. This year the competition was more fierce, unsurprising given the money Spurs and City spend i recent years.
What money have the americans put into LFC?Rafa restored Liverpool to a European force once again with a squad / wage bill / buget on far less than some of the the other top European teams. The fact we were the number 1 ranked European team seems to be forgotten about here, how much money did he make for the Americans in that period? This is a flawed arguement from someone who has an agenda totally against Rafael Benitez
ReplyDeleteRead more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/rafa-benitez-or-hicks-gillett-who-is.html#ixzz0oNpJ4vfL</span>
You are totally wrong to the exten where it's embarrasing. I can't even be bothered to correct this level of inaccuracy.
ReplyDeleteJamie, no war. I just want to debate and clarify the reality. Although i trust you tried to be objective, your emotion against Rafa failed you.
ReplyDeleteLet us compare the following 2 situation faced by 2 new managers:
MorinA who know that he would be allowed to spend 50m in each of the next 4 years;
and RafaB who was told that he would be given 20m in each of the next 4 years.
When both teams were not Champions and need development, you can imagine the they have to adopt different strategies.
MorinA could just go out and buy 2 x 20m established stars (with older and less resale value & much higher wages), with a 50% sucess rate, he would show the world one Success every year. With several 3-5m young hopeful, got one every 2-year comeup to first team, GREAT manager!
RafaB, however, he could have one chance of 20m to buy the impact player (as you pick the term). He could not bear the same 50% success rate in the way MorinA can, ie. he has to achieve various target in one buy (1) hope to hit the 50% success and get an impact player, but also (2) to pick someone young or relatively unknown so that the player can be resale if it turns out to be the fail 50% and won't asked for such high wages.
An implication here is the 20m in MorinA's pocket is not the same with the 20m in RafaB (or whoever else managed in LFC's context). On top everything else, we all know that if 2 players with same footballing quality, the one younger/or receiving lower wages would be priced much higher. Or in return, with the same 20m, you can less footballing quality if you have to chose from younger player with lower wage request.
I don't necessary agree with the way you assess a manager's record in the transfer market. BUT, if you insist, please really please sincerely please employ the same model to assess Martin's record at Villa before you laugh off Rafa's effort.
ReplyDeleteBe real man, EVEN G&H had kept their promise to moderately support RB, it's indeed for any team behind the squad of MU and wealth of Cski to over take them in the last 4-5 years. The gap was there and would "naturally" enlarge every year.
Ask yourself, besides MU (accumulated reputation) & Cheski and MC (Huge fund and wage bill), has sucessfully spot and acutally signed some super star like Reina, Agger, Xabi, Torres, Peter?
For Xabi's case, whatever he said, i think after some years in a team outside spain, he would leave for Real unless he's already in Baca or MU, or taking huge wage in Cheski or MC.
We LFC fans really have to get real and support the our manager after a bad season, just like we won't blame Gererd and ask him to get out.
Where were we 5 years ago? i know we just finished 7th, but i honestly believe our squad are objectively (quantified by value) so much better.
<span>I don't necessary agree with the way you assess a manager's record in the transfer market. BUT, if you insist, please really please sincerely please employ the same model to assess Martin's record at Villa before you laugh off Rafa's effort.
ReplyDeleteBe real man, EVEN G&H had kept their promise to moderately support RB, it's indeed very difficult for any team behind the squad of MU and wealth of Cski to over take them in the last 4-5 years. The gap was there and would "naturally" enlarge every year. See how AW been doing.
Ask yourself, besides MU (accumulated reputation) & Cheski and MC (Huge fund and wage bill), who else has sucessfully spot and acutally signed some super star like Reina, Agger, Xabi, Torres, Peter? The obviously good players were not that obvious before they were signed.
In Xabi's case, whatever he said, i think after some years in a team outside spain, he would take the chance to join Real Madrid unless he's already in Baca or MU, or taking huge wage in Cheski or MC.
We LFC fans really have to get real and support our manager after a bad season, just like we won't blame Gererd and ask him to get out.
Where were we 5 years ago? i know we just finished 7th, but i honestly believe our squad are objectively (quantified by value) so much better.</span>
Just can't understand your logic. Do you mean every manager except the winner are losing CL money, FA cup money, etc.?
ReplyDeleteand you count Parry's compensation to RB?
Kraken, That's where you are absolutely wrong. If any more of our marquee signings leave this summer it will be precisely because of Mr Benitez's stuborn ways and the fact that you can clearly tell by the body language that, other than his pets Lucas & Kuyt no one believes in him anymore
ReplyDeleteGerrard has played the best football of his career under Benitez (and in positions that previously no one had thought to use him in) while Torres has been quoted as expressing a like for Benitez high standards that push him harder and harder. Although it seems hard to believe now there weren't too many that were convinced about Torres at the time of his signing.
ReplyDeleteWhile I respect your opinion is that Benitez should go this article is pretty ludicrous. I'll accept this season hasn't been good enough but to lay the blame at the managers door for "loss of revenue" is beyond belief. I'll debate all day about tactics, signings etc but this...
Can you compare these financial results against the other managers in the league (based on what your expectations of them where of course) so that we can compare? Oh hang on...don't bother...
Kraken - Rather than just saying that the competition has been more fierce, the argument could be made that the lower placed teams have been even worse than usual therefore allowing the "bigger" teams more easy victories and the opportunity to rack up higher points totals than usual.
ReplyDeleteLet's see what tangent you jump off on this time...
No doubt that those yanks are useless and and even worse business men. Rafa plays along the same lines. Too many managers have done a better job with far less. Money is irrelevant if you cannot put the best 11 on the field. All the tinkering with the players was all due to the inability to get to grips with the english game. He was stabbing at the dark and this was all clear when he fielded the team he did in the uefa semis.
ReplyDeleteSorry guy, rafa is as much to blame for the teams demise as is the yanks. You can deny that all you like but the truth is the truth.
I agree that the players also have to share some blame but it is true that if the players cannot feel secure it shows in their performances on the field. A classic case was when united also had all that turbulance fergie and his horses also with the glazers. They didn't do to well then either. Same with popey, same with leeds, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf rafa cannot do it this season then mourinho was right, he just never will be able to get it i'm afraid
I think that Kraken got this very wrong. It's not really all about the money. LFC has very good players and i am not talking about the deadwood.
ReplyDeleteLook at the picture properly.
-Fergie is fergie ... he sometimes doesn't spend and can still win the league.
-Arsenal hasn't really improved over the years since they are still ending up with the same results regardless of who came in.
-Chelsea got it right but say what you like, it's achovie-lotti the manager that made the difference
-Man city, same thing. New manager made the difference since Hughes couldn't do it with what he had, money or players.
-Tots ... Rednapp is a genius, he always gets the best out of his players.
-We never done this badly because of a lack of money. Think straight. LFC has never been a big spending team. Rafa unfortunately doesn't know how to get the best out of players and that is a fact, at least for this season.