Has Rafa Benitez lied over the fitness of Alberto Aquilani? Is it fair to label Liverpool's manager a liar over the regularly changing estimates about the Italian's return to fitness? That is the question being considered here.
Let's take a look at the evidence.
AUG 7th 2009: Statement on the official Liverpool FC website:
"Liverpool FC confirmed this evening that Alberto Aquilani has successfully completed a medical and agreed a 5-year contract with the club. The player will now continue his rehabilitation from an ankle operation under the guidance of Liverpool’s medical team and is expected to be fully fit in approximately 4-8 weeks time".
Fully fit in 4-8 weeks time. If that was true, Aquilani would have been ready to start by October 7th at the latest. Did this happen? No. The club has clearly lied here, right?
AUG 9th 2009
Benitez: "When we were talking (to Roma) about Aquilani we knew he was recovering from an operation and would not be able to play for the first weeks of the season.
First weeks of the season? That implies a short period at the start of the season, right? Given the fact it is now the 19th November and Aquilani has still not started a Premiership game, did Benitez deliberately mislead fans here?
On the same day, Benitez added:
"But we can wait for him. We have enough midfield and offensive players to cope".
Hmmm. 8 defeats since the start of the season and 1 win in the last 9 suggests otherwise.
SEP 1, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto is improving. We were talking before about six to eight weeks"
Benitez refers to a period in the past where the estimated time-frame for Aquilani's return to fitness was 6-8 weeks. Has this been realised? No. Surely a deliberate lie here to buy more time?
SEP 12, 2009
Benitez: "Aquilani has improved, he has progressed in the way that we expected and now maybe in two or three weeks we will see him training".
So - Benitez expected Aquilani to be training before the end of September (almost 2 months ago). If he's been training since that time, surely he would be fit enough to start a game by now?
OCT 7, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto is progressing all the time. It could be two to three weeks before he is back".
Another 2-3 weeks, which would make it the end of October. It's now November 19th, and Benitez is still being ultra cautious about Aquilani. Surely this comment is another example of Benitez lying to the fans?
NOV 19, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto wants to play for us and he is so desperate to be involved as quickly as he can but he understands the reasons he cannot start yet".
So - over three months after joining the club, and despite repeated statements from Benitez that Aquilani would be fit weeks ago, the player is still unable to start.
This is just a catalogue of lies from Benitez, isn't it? The fans have been misled since the day Aquilani was signed, and Benitez has been lying ever since, hasn't he?
OF COURSE NOT!
Now - imagine if it was Hicks and Gillett making the very same statements about Aquilani (!) We all know how that would've panned out - The irrational anti-owner brigade and groups like 'Spirit of Shankly' would be calling them liars. We know this because that is *exactly* what has happened with similar statements of intent made by H+G.
I don't think any fair-minded person could disagree that Benitez's estimates about Aquilani's fitness were honest statements of intent based on the information available at the time.
Benitez spectacularly failed to deliver on these estimates, but despite the catastophic impact of not having a quality replacement for Xabi Alonso, no one is calling him a liar.
Now let's compare this situation with George Gillett's infamous comment about the new stadium, made on the 26th January 2007:
"The shovel needs to be in the ground in the next 60 days...and we would intend to follow that."
Ever since that 60 day deadline was missed - and despite the fact there are many valid business reasons for not meeting that deadline - rabid fans, SOS, and agenda-driven LFC websites like RAWK, have incessantly accused the Owners of deliberate deception.
Whenever (automaton) fans talk about the alleged 'lying' of the Owners, you can guarantee that the very first accusation will be: 'but they lied about having a spade in the ground in 60 days'. It's so comical now that it has almost entered into the realms of parody.
Like Benitez's comments about Aquilani, the 'spade in the ground' comment was an honest statement of intent based on the information available at the time. And just like Aquilani's injury estimates legitimately changed, the Owners' stadium plans legitimately changed.
There was no lying in either situation, yet the two situations are treated differently.
And therein lies the staggering hypocrisy of some 'fans'.
EDIT 20/11/09: For the love of god (!), this article is NOT about Rafa being a liar! How many more people are going to misunderstand this?! I even state several times over in the article that it's wrong to suggest he's a liar. This article is about how Liverpool fans treat Rafa and the Owners differently despite both making honest statements of intent. Fans would never label Rafa a liar over Aquilani because it would be ridiculous. The same principle should apply to Gillett's 60 days comment, but it doesn't because a section of Liverpool fans are irrationally prejudiced against the owners. This is obvious. Maybe I should dumb it down a little next time.
Jaimie Kanwar
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Let's take a look at the evidence.
AUG 7th 2009: Statement on the official Liverpool FC website:
"Liverpool FC confirmed this evening that Alberto Aquilani has successfully completed a medical and agreed a 5-year contract with the club. The player will now continue his rehabilitation from an ankle operation under the guidance of Liverpool’s medical team and is expected to be fully fit in approximately 4-8 weeks time".
Fully fit in 4-8 weeks time. If that was true, Aquilani would have been ready to start by October 7th at the latest. Did this happen? No. The club has clearly lied here, right?
AUG 9th 2009
Benitez: "When we were talking (to Roma) about Aquilani we knew he was recovering from an operation and would not be able to play for the first weeks of the season.
First weeks of the season? That implies a short period at the start of the season, right? Given the fact it is now the 19th November and Aquilani has still not started a Premiership game, did Benitez deliberately mislead fans here?
On the same day, Benitez added:
"But we can wait for him. We have enough midfield and offensive players to cope".
Hmmm. 8 defeats since the start of the season and 1 win in the last 9 suggests otherwise.
SEP 1, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto is improving. We were talking before about six to eight weeks"
Benitez refers to a period in the past where the estimated time-frame for Aquilani's return to fitness was 6-8 weeks. Has this been realised? No. Surely a deliberate lie here to buy more time?
SEP 12, 2009
Benitez: "Aquilani has improved, he has progressed in the way that we expected and now maybe in two or three weeks we will see him training".
So - Benitez expected Aquilani to be training before the end of September (almost 2 months ago). If he's been training since that time, surely he would be fit enough to start a game by now?
OCT 7, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto is progressing all the time. It could be two to three weeks before he is back".
Another 2-3 weeks, which would make it the end of October. It's now November 19th, and Benitez is still being ultra cautious about Aquilani. Surely this comment is another example of Benitez lying to the fans?
NOV 19, 2009
Benitez: "Alberto wants to play for us and he is so desperate to be involved as quickly as he can but he understands the reasons he cannot start yet".
So - over three months after joining the club, and despite repeated statements from Benitez that Aquilani would be fit weeks ago, the player is still unable to start.
This is just a catalogue of lies from Benitez, isn't it? The fans have been misled since the day Aquilani was signed, and Benitez has been lying ever since, hasn't he?
OF COURSE NOT!
Now - imagine if it was Hicks and Gillett making the very same statements about Aquilani (!) We all know how that would've panned out - The irrational anti-owner brigade and groups like 'Spirit of Shankly' would be calling them liars. We know this because that is *exactly* what has happened with similar statements of intent made by H+G.
I don't think any fair-minded person could disagree that Benitez's estimates about Aquilani's fitness were honest statements of intent based on the information available at the time.
Benitez spectacularly failed to deliver on these estimates, but despite the catastophic impact of not having a quality replacement for Xabi Alonso, no one is calling him a liar.
Now let's compare this situation with George Gillett's infamous comment about the new stadium, made on the 26th January 2007:
"The shovel needs to be in the ground in the next 60 days...and we would intend to follow that."
Ever since that 60 day deadline was missed - and despite the fact there are many valid business reasons for not meeting that deadline - rabid fans, SOS, and agenda-driven LFC websites like RAWK, have incessantly accused the Owners of deliberate deception.
Whenever (automaton) fans talk about the alleged 'lying' of the Owners, you can guarantee that the very first accusation will be: 'but they lied about having a spade in the ground in 60 days'. It's so comical now that it has almost entered into the realms of parody.
Like Benitez's comments about Aquilani, the 'spade in the ground' comment was an honest statement of intent based on the information available at the time. And just like Aquilani's injury estimates legitimately changed, the Owners' stadium plans legitimately changed.
There was no lying in either situation, yet the two situations are treated differently.
And therein lies the staggering hypocrisy of some 'fans'.
EDIT 20/11/09: For the love of god (!), this article is NOT about Rafa being a liar! How many more people are going to misunderstand this?! I even state several times over in the article that it's wrong to suggest he's a liar. This article is about how Liverpool fans treat Rafa and the Owners differently despite both making honest statements of intent. Fans would never label Rafa a liar over Aquilani because it would be ridiculous. The same principle should apply to Gillett's 60 days comment, but it doesn't because a section of Liverpool fans are irrationally prejudiced against the owners. This is obvious. Maybe I should dumb it down a little next time.
Jaimie Kanwar
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Fair play to you. You come up with a sensationalised article every day. You're imagintive brain could probably be doing something more useful than writing this sort of crap.
ReplyDeletewhat are you talking about . no mamager can say for sure when a player will be ready to play after a long layof .you dont pay a lot of money for a player rush him back and then have out even longer. its an idiot who would call rafa a lier at the start of the season he didnt know all the injuries we would have . so just get your facts right before making yourself look stupid
ReplyDeleteFile under: 'Completely missed the point'.
ReplyDeleteto be fair mate he has to do the most part of a pre-season on top of his rehab. why rush a top quality player back early if it will mean he will miss games later in the season? Aquilani's problem was that he was continuously rushed back at Roma and never fully recovered. Benitez knows we need him in the team and at the end of the day only he and the doctors know when he is ready physically. I say leave them to it and we will see the best of him.
ReplyDeleteA story about nothing, you just wasted your time writing that one.
ReplyDelete'true fan' you've just proved his point! read the article again lad
ReplyDeleteTrue Fan, next time read the article before responding to it.
ReplyDeleteIf your not claiming benitez is a liar then in a simple sentence please clarify what your point is.
ReplyDeleteAs for the recovery time and estimated time in aquilani being ready for first team action this was based on medical advice from professionals not rafa himself.
Out of interest what made you want to write this article? Why don't you concentrate on supporting your team.
Hey Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your frustrations about Benitez's comments on Aquilani. I don't thin you are calling him a liar so let's get that straight. And like you said with the 'spade in the ground' comment, there may be other factors at play that may be undermining his return. Or who knows, maybe Benitez didn't feel comfortable telling the Kopites "I paid 20mil for a midfielder what wouldn't be ready for 3-4 months". Boy would I have been pissed if I heard that!
Anyway I digress. The main thing I disagree with it your comments about the Spirit of Shankley group:
<span>"The irrational anti-owner brigade and the simpletons from 'Spirit of Shankly' would be calling them liars in the strongest possible terms."</span>
I think that's harsh as these are merely concerned Liverpool fans who have become frustrated with a number of injustices that have occured, and seem likely to occur.
Now I have done my own little research on Tom Hicks after his name popped up in a book I was reading: How Soccer Explains The World. In it the author makes makes mention of a company, Hicks, Muse, Tate & Furst which takes control of the Brazillian club Corinthians. They do this by promising many of the same things we have heard at Liverpool. Namely, a new stadium.
Unfortunately the new stadium never came about and a number of poor financial decisions were made which drew fury from the fans: the introduction of corporate sponsors on the players' jerseys (Standard Chartered is now going to be on ours), changing of the clubs colours (I don't think they could ever get away with that at Liverpool). Also there was alot of in-fighting in the group, which we are seeing at Liverpool now with Gillet and Hicks. Finally the group pulled out of Corinthians, leaving the club in a worse off state than when they came: After they were relegated to a lower devision.
Now the parallels between what's happened at Corintians and what's happening at Liverpool are hard to ignore. So I don't think that Spirit of Shankley are being irrational at all. They are very concerned fans who demand the best for our club.
You are either claiming
ReplyDeleteA) benitez is a liar
B) benitez is incompetent
C) benetiz is a poor doctor
WHY WE AS A FAN ALWAYS CRITICS ...SHOW SOME SUPPORT MAN...I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY JAMIE ALWAYS BLAME RAFA....POOR RAFA....HAHAA I STILL REMEMBER FINAL CL...WE USED BISCAN AND SMICER....IF WE LOSE THAT GAME ...U JAMIE WILL POINT TO RAFA ...WHY USED THAT TYPE OF PLAYER ...HHAAAAHAHA....CRITCS..JUST LIKE THE SH... INRAFAWETRUST
ReplyDeleteAnother futile and anit-benitez article from Jamie. I keep on reading your blogs in the hope that you will actually start writing some useful articles! Do the words, silence is golden not mean anything to you! If you have got nothing good to say, then spare us all and put a sock in it!
ReplyDeleteAquilani has already played for us and is building his match fitness, stamina and learning to fit in. What is the point of these futile rants? Honestly, you really should do us all a favour and go and support another team, maybe the chavs or the mancs cause you sure as hell do NOT support Liverpool. Oh, and don't bother replying to this cause I won't be bothering to come back to your useless website! It is true what they say, opinions are like assholes....you being the classic example.
OK jamie , you may classify this under "CMTP" also. but honestly Rafa should have sent him to tsee the Placenta Wonder Cure Women in Belgrade like a long long time ago :) . Seems like a well kept secret amongst the footballers as testified by Benayoun , Riera and VanPersie
ReplyDeleteBut you would'nt want the lady to rub those placenta on Gerrard's and Torres's groin area would you :-[
The point of my article is completely clear: to express my frustration at the blinkered, irrational response of some fans towards the Owners.
ReplyDeleteI highlighted a series of statements by Rafa that constitute honest statements of intent, and compared the fan response to another honest statement of intent made by George Gillett.
I'm just sick of fans going around calling the Owners liars without being fair about the situation. Many of these fans (in my experience) just jump on the bandwagon without actually considering the issue for themselves.
Hicks and Gillett have not lied about ANYTHING:
1. When they bought the club, it was bought without debt at the start. The club accounts prove this. The debt camae later. H+G's initial statement was that they BOUGH the club without debt, which is true - at no point did they suggest that no debt would ever be loaded onto the club.
2. I've explained the spade in the ground comment: that is not a lie.
3. Expenses? Not a lie. they own the club, therefore they have the right to claim expenses, whether we like it or not.
4. Money for signings? Torres, Masch, Johnson, Aquilani, Skrtel, Babel etc. Money has been provided for signings so no lying there either.
Despite this, ignorant fans still go around calling them liars!
As I stated in the article, imagine if it was H+G making the statements about Aquilani. now be honest; how would fans have reacted?
Are you completely incapable of comprehending the simplest concepts? I am not calling Benitez any of those things - the first part of the article is designed to make you think I'm calling him a liar - I'm making a comparison between Benitez's honest statements of intent (operative word here: HONEST), and H+G's statements.
ReplyDeleteI pity you.
ReplyDeleteGood points there
ReplyDeletePersonally I don't blame the yanks for the debt or the delay to the stadium being built. i dont like the yanks and i dont like SOS.
My problems with the Americans are that in the last two years we have spent about 5 million net. the 'sell three to afford one' policy has left the team weak in depth. you cannot build a team if you can only buy what you sell. commercially they have been great, but they have been a cloud over the club thanks to their public bickering and constant specualtion over the ownership of the club.
I've been reading this blog for a while and was noticed the way the author felt he always had to jump in to reply to posters' views and opinions he didn't like. Chuckling a bit more now that he seems to want to ignore posters' views he has no answers to?
ReplyDeleteI'm stunned that you've finnaly ran out of things to talk about.
ReplyDeleteI knew this day would come, thank god.
Erm, that's called discussion. You're aware of the concept, right? When one person presents a POV and people disagree with it, then the person presenting the view engages in discussion, usually to defend their POV. If everyone just said 'yep, I agree' there would be no discussion. And there are no opinions 'I don't like'. That's crap. Obviously I respond views that disagree with me, but that's normal. So what's your point?
ReplyDeleteAquilani is not a robot, sometimes a recovery takes longer than expected. My two cents
ReplyDeleteWell, you'll be sorely disappointed then, Candrews, as I'm nowhere near running out of things to write about.
ReplyDeleteRegular readers can that this is just the latest in a long-line of articles defending the Owners against unfair accusations and highlighting (what I perceive to be) the hypocrisy of some fans.
I think he may be talking about the points i made about Hicks. I was showing while you say the owners aren't lying about anything I have shown that he himself has a history of unfulfilled promises (Corinthians). I actually was hoping to get a response personally. You attacked the SOS group and I tried to engage in a discussion about it.
ReplyDelete<p><span><span>There is a difference between being physically fit and being match fit!!</span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span><span>Aquilani has been physically fit since the sunderland game on 17<sup>th</sup> oct, however <span> </span>due to our poor run of games we haven’t had the opportunity to give him enough minutes to build his match fitness.</span></span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span><span>I agree both rafa and G+H gave opinions on what they thought would happen but G+H spoke their opinion as fact “the spade WILL be in the ground by…” from your own quotes rafa says “approximately 4-8 week” “maybe in two or three weeks” also I have never heard rafa denying his comments, gillett clearly has, even when it’s on youtube for all to see this makes him a LIAR!!!</span></span></p>
Benitez goes to see the Club Doctor and asks how Aquilani is doing, Club Doctor gives his response, Rafa issues press statement - it's pretty simplistic in that sense and as simple as I've put it that's pretty much the general idea.
ReplyDeleteIf Aquilani has taken longer to recover from an injury than expected so be it, I'd rather he were 100% than 95% and picked up another injury.
Why is it however Jaimie, that your articles dried up around January 2009 when we were top of the League and our CL group?
Since we've struggled this season and towards the end of last season the rate at which you've written articles has increased exponentially, it almost appears as though you only like writing articles about Liverpool FC when we're going through troubled times?
H&G said they'd have a spade in the ground within 60 days, it's on their press conference and it was a good 18 months before the credit crunch!
I've avoided breaking any rules on comments I might add.
Polo - I agree with you re Corinthians; that clearly seems to be a case where whatever was planned went wrong, and I make no excuses for that. I'm not going to pass judgement on that situation right now though as I'm currently engaged in independent research of that situation to get a clearer picture of what happened.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, one mistake does not define a career, does it? That was Hicks' first foray into owning a football team, and clearly he and his partners had no idea what they were walking into.
10 years have passed since that purchases - do you not think that Hicks has learned from that situation? Do you really think he went into that cub intending to make mistakes?
On top of that, Liverpool must have known about the Conrinthians situation when they sold the club, and irrespective of Moores and Parry's role in the sale, the club would not have been sold to Hicks if there was a chance that history was going to repeat itself.
People make mistakes. Corinthians appears to be a mistake; but then you have to balance that out against all of H+G successes with various businessess - sports or otherwise - since that time.
You cannot just one situation to damn them forever.
i have to agree, anyone who makes a strong argument he just ignores
ReplyDeletei'm not one of these "spirit of shankly" looneys and maybe calling the owners liars is sometimes maybe harsh but lets look at the facts, when they first bought the club they did say the spade would be in the ground within 60 days, they delayed and delayed for whatever reason (new design, new architects, new building company) AND THEN the rescession kicked in, if they had only done what they said they were going to, then this stadium project would be well under underway by now, and they also said if rafa came to us and says he wants "snoogie doogie" we will go and buy him, and this clearly hasnt happened with barry being the obvious case here, i would suspect there are others too that rafa wanted but the owners have said no to, so to say lied? maybe not but they have certainly not given everything they have promised, you have argued in the past that the previous owners would not have been able to afford torres, i dissagree with this, the purchase of torres coincided with the new TV deal which gave clubs an extra 30 mil per season, so moores and parry's previous regime would have been able to afford this easily. but in the last year or so things are looking up, parry's incompetant commercial abilities have been put by the wayside with mr purslows new 20 mil per year shirt deal, the upcoming "substantial" investment within 6 months and possibly a massive deal for the naming rights on the way. however this summer it was widely reported rafa was promised 20 mil to spend + whatever he could sell plus the robbie keane money, and this promise also seemed to be regneged upon, so the owners have made massive claims they have failed to live up to, but i do agree they are not the devil incarnate but at the same time they are not loonies who will just throw money away (25mil for lescott anyone?) they are trying to run the club like a business which is fair enough in my view, however i think even you would be happier if we had owners like city or chelsea, i know i would.
ReplyDeleteFOR ME AS A MANAGER YOU HAVE A REASON....WHY MUST DO THAT AND WHY MUST NOT DO THAT.....IF WERE IN RAFA POSITION...I WILL WALK FROM ANFIELD..IS IT HE STAY THERE JUST TO BE LIAR FOR US...IS IT FOR MONEY...I THINK NOT...HE HAVE PASSION FOR OUR GREAT CLUB....DREAM ON JAMIE
ReplyDeleteJamie I see you what you've tried to do here and the angle you're aiming at. But the comparision is so weak and short of the complete facts that it's laughable.
ReplyDeleteYou refer to the 'spade in the ground' quote. While this isn't a lie as you rightly say - why haven't you thrown in the quote by Gillett that said 'If Rafa wanted to sign snoop dog he could'?
I am guessing this is because it would show your article to be a farce. That comment WAS a lie - as if it was the case why would Rafa of come out right after the CL final in Athens and claim the club was moving to slow in it's transfer dealings, only months after the new owners came in?
Don't try and justify it by claiming the credit crunch hit us at the worst time. No - it hit the banks mate. The same banks that the owners used to borrow from.
I don't know if it has escaped your attention that we're talking about not one but two billionaires here.
If they wanted to then their own money would have been and should have been used. Instead they borrowed. Odd isn't it?
If you had a few million would you be going to a bank for a loan?
Think about it.
As supporters, We cannot talk about the owners only for blaming them.
ReplyDeleteOk, We can espress our frustation, but Also WE have to spotlight that the that the Owners have just appointed Chris Purslow on the verge of the club.
Just give a watch how Purslow is managing the marketing of LFC now, mates.
Is there a difference mates, or not?
Who have appointed Chris Purslow?
And Nobody want to claim Benitez a liar, but maybe Benitez has been trying, with honesry, to get more time with Aquilani..
Stop.
<span><span>Dear friends.
ReplyDelete</span><span>I wonder when you think that man can not go wrong!
</span><span>Most important, what do you think Rafa can not make mistakes, too!
</span><span>We must simply face the truth and accept it how it is.
</span><span>Rafa made a mistake when he signed Aquilani!
</span><span>1-It does not take into account the factor of precedent. </span><span>Italiyans not very well have written in the English style of football. </span><span>at least very little precedent for when such a transfer to justify himself.</span><span>He could sign the Dutchman from Madrid, and even though he was not injured and did not even have to pay money. </span><span>he simply could not turn to the exchange Alonso conditions <span>Wesley Sneijder</span> + money. </span><span>unlike Italiyans footballer Holland are very successful in English football.</span></span>
Jaimie, i'm a liverpool fan who's not in the IRWT bridgade. How fans still keep coming with lame excuses to justify his continuous mistakes is beyond me (i wanted Rafa out since the 2007 CL final). Arsenal, Mancs and plastic chelski fans trust in Rafa for a good reason (to slowly destroy liverpool). I think for liverpool is move forward, we need new owners with more money (not blaming them totally for our demise) and a new manager (he has shown on thousand occasions he can't win the EPL).
ReplyDeleteOnto your point, i understand your view of how IRWT bridgade fans are hypocrites; they can call the owners (they're not too bad) liars unjustifiably but yet when Rafa make statements with honest intent and it's not fufilled, they all praise him and make up excuses and get behind.
If Rafa is not lying, then surely the owners can't be called liars as well.
Sometimes I think a lot of so called 'liverpool fans' deliberating think like idiots and selectively choose what they want to believe rather than consider the whole situation properly.
Jaimie, ur not on your own. There are some TRUE liverpool fans like us who support LIVERPOOL not RAFA.
But we'll just have 2 wait till a better manager and possibly new owners with more cash before we become great again. Take care Jaimie and be patient till our time comes to be CHAMPS once more.
P.S. all IRWT bridgade fans, get lost from our club. You're dragging us down and making our club an embarassment to the public.
No, it does not make him a liar. I've changed the quote in the article to:
ReplyDelete<span><span>"The shovel needs to be in the ground in the ground in the next 60 days...and we would intend to follow that."</span></span>
I've changed it to match Gillett's exact words, spoken in a press conference here: (22 seconds in)
http://www.youtube.com/v/cMyKZjxmjQE&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140
The original quote I usd was reported by the BBC, but it looks like it was inaccurate. You can't get any more accurate than video evidence of the man himself.
So, as you can see, it was not a lie. Gillett said 'the Shovel NEEDS to be in the ground'. This is a statement of intent.
Goodness this is alarming, people you may well have legitimate reasons to disagree with Mr Kanwar and i know that i have in the past but you should read the article in full before commenting.
ReplyDeleteHe does not say that Benitez is a liar; incompetent; bad doctor or anything else for that matter. He highlights statements that Benitez made regarding Aquilani's injury. He goes on to highlight that these statements in hindsight were not accurate. Finally he says that this DOES NOT make Benitez a liar. The point being that a genuine statement can subsequently be proven erroneous without necessarily undermining its original integrity.
ie I tell my friend I am going to the shops. I get knocked down on the way to the shops and cannot make it due to being in hospital. I was not lying to my friend when I said I was going to the shops.
The point of the article is the manner in which some fans are quick to call the americans liars on essentially the same basis. Agree or disagree it is not an argument to be dismissed out of hand.
On a football note, quite nervous about this game on Saturday already. It really is a make or break few weeks for us. YNWA
here we go again...more rubbish with the only facts based on newspaper opinions and ends up sounding like a lot of tosh
ReplyDeletebefore u say anything, yes i get the point of ur article...but firstly ur kinda wrong and secondly what is the point of the article trying to proove...??!??
firstly rafa being a liar about his health....
one can never be sure how long it can take a player to be healthy and then match fit - are you really going to call him a liar for something that no one alive could ever know...hes been out for a long time, and i think its better we take our time with him otherwise..if rafa did push him back, we would have another jamie "llook how stupid rafa is article"
regarding hicks and gillet - are you really looking to defend them?
yes they have brought a much needed commercial aspect to the club, but have they really helped rafa build his team?
i know u like pointing out every purchase hes been made, but let me ask u this...
this summer we were thought of as potential championship contenders and how much did gillet+hicks give us to spend.....
we actually made money this year...
count in the alonso sale, and aquilini costing only 5m upfront, and johnson being bought.....
what happend to supporting rafa in the transfer market? what happend to all that extra cash going to players, what happend to our champs league money?
and what happend to the stadium...spurs are moving forward with their stadium and to blame the current financial market is rubbish,
please for once...write with some idea of facts, truth and not your awfully biased opinion
No need to respond in detail to this. There was no lie - any fair-minded person can see that.
ReplyDeleteAnd what does the Snoop-Dog comment have to do with anything?!
Liveprool have signed Torres, mascherano, Johnson, Aquilani, Babel et al since H+G arrived, all big money signings. The wider point here is that since H+G arrived, Liverpool have spent more money on transfers than at any point in history.
Your feeble argument about my articles 'drying up around Jan 2009' doesn't wash. I took a brea from the site the end of August 2008 - yes, FOUR WHOLE MONTHS BEFORE JANUARY 2009 - and did not return until February 2009.
ReplyDeleteNice try though ;)
where is your evidence of this?? how can you be so sure that moores wouldn't have sold?? all we know of the situation is that hicks and gillett offered the most money, we don't know what kind of background checks were done.
ReplyDeletealso you talk about their business success but there isn't one set of fans from any of the sports companies they owned past or present that is happy with them.
Jamie - You do raise a very good point in your response:
ReplyDeleteLiverpool must have known about the Conrinthians situation when they sold the club
Surely the board did know about it. Yet they unanimously voted in favour of the sale. I find that extremely strange considering Hicks' previous stint in football club ownership ended so drasticly. Either the board were unaware of this (which I find impossible to believe), G+H's proposals seemed air tight and very well planned out (in which case I am still worried about the current situation), or there were some kick backs which they stood to benefit from (in that case we have a far bigger problem at Liverpool FC, namely board corruption). Of course this is just my opinion.
Now yes I agree 10 years have passed and Hicks could have learned from his failings. However I don't know how comfortable I am with him taking on one of the biggest football brands around. Maybe I'm too pessamistic.
However, you are right, one mistake doesn't define a man's career. Hick's has been very successful in buying entities and making them bigger and better before selling them off. He has had his series of successes as well as failures. I still can't feel comforatble thinking that his one try before in football ended so badly. Also like I said, the current situation is beginning to mirror what had taken place at Corinthians a decade ago. The public infighting isn't helping the cause either.
Which I guess brings me to ask, why are they fighting anyway? It seems that Gillett teamed up with Hicks, Tate, Muse & Furst in 2001 to purchase Swift and Company (a beef processor). They are now the 3rd largest in the world and a fortune 500 company. This would seem to be a very successful enterprise that Hicks and Gillett worked together on.
With this previous successful relationship I don't see why they can't seem to get along now at Liverpool. Could it be that there is trouble brewing behind closed doors?
You say you are doing your own independant research. Would you mind sharing some of your findings?
Do you not think Liverpool have a legal team that conducts due-diligence? Or do you think the club is a cowby operation that just sells on a handshake?! It is standard business practice for both sides to conduct due diligence; it would be professional negligence not to. To suggest Liverpool did not check into the backgrounds of H+G is utter nonsense.
ReplyDeleteSpot on.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair I don't think G&H have done as badly as people make out, they have made mistakes but all in all I think we are going in the right way, Especially commercialy, sure we would love to have the spending power of Chelsea Madrid or city but as a business model were not too different from most other premiership clubs, my gripe with jamie however is that your views are biased, your anti benitez and pro G&H, intact I'd go as far as saying your being put up to be like this from some people with an interest in you having such opinions
ReplyDeleteClearly some of the people commenting can't seem to realize that this article is about the hypocrisy of fans and not hick, gillet or rafa being liars
ReplyDeleteWe've just spent 18million on Johnson and a reported 20mill on Aquilani. How is that not supporting rafa in the transfer market?
ReplyDeleteDon't compare our stadium project to spurs, they're in the position we were in about 2 years ago - they have only announced their proposed plans, they haven't even thought about planning permission, funding etc... yet. Get your FACTS straight.
so why has Gillett said that it wasn't him but Hicks who made the statment???
ReplyDeletesomeone is LYING!!!!
So many misconceptions and inaccuracies with this comment:
ReplyDelete1. You clearly did not get the point of the article. if you did, you would not be justifying Rafa's reasons for Aquilani's delayed fitness. Please read the excellent posts by Livapul and Guest above yours.
2. Re H+G and transfers - Liverpool hjave spent more on transfers since they arrived than at any point in the club's history. H+G brought us Fernando Torres, and all our other big money signings. I guess that means nothing though, right?
And re this summer - Benitez spent almost 40m! Plus you're forgetting the other millions made available to extend the contracts of Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Benayoun. Aquilani may only have been 5m upfont but his actual cost is 18m, the majority of which needs to be paid in full within a year and a hald. It's a fals argumement to say he only cost 5m. The full 18m will have to be paid, and that could rise to 22m with add ons over time. I've broken the transfer down in this article: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/11/alberto-aquilani-truth-about-his.html
3. Spurs are not moving forward with a stadium! All that has happened is a plan has been announced. That means nothing. The money has not been acquired; no work has started. Nothing has happened yet. Just because someone say 'we want to buiuld a stadium' doesn't mean it will happen.
Liverpool are way ahead os Spurs anyway, as planning permission has been granted and millions has been spent on designs and preliminary logistical work.
jan and feb was when there were the draws and then u returned!
ReplyDeletePS: if you continue to include derogatory comments in your articles I will just delete your comments in future. In this case, I edited them out. Just stick to debating the issues please.
ReplyDeleteAnd another thing....do you even understand how the financial system works? The majority of owners don't have capital just lying around waiting to be spent (Man City, Chelsea aside) they have to secure a loan against something (e.g. LFC or the Rangers).....if the people previously willing to loan now aren't (because they themselves have over-extended their lending) where do you expect the money to come from? If you've noticed, it's harder to get a morgage now, the same applies to much bigger projects.
ReplyDeleteWho cares?! It's possible he misremembered. It happens. Also, if you watch the video, Hicks turns to Parry for confirmation of the 60 days timescale, which suggests he wasn't sure about it in the first place and was fed that timescale by Parry.
ReplyDeleteBut - let's just say he did lie, as I said WHO CARES. It's not a lie about the club or anything to do with the club; it's a statement about who said something.
In my view, Gillett did not deliberately lie about who said what; he just got confused during a confrontation interview with SOS.
Jamie we are skint admit that,we Supporters from MALAYSIA will support RAFA ...there are no good manager except RAFA......
ReplyDeleteComments like this really disturb me.
ReplyDelete'There are no good managers except Rafa'
Do you seriously believe that? if you do, then you're part of the problem.
What do we when Rafa eventually leaves? I guess we'll be relegated and slide down into non-league football because there are no good managers except Rafa...
I don't know whether this is an attempt to justify some of the decisions made by H & G or simply to try and win a war of words with SOS. Either way it falls way short of achieving both.
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<p><span>Hey Jaimie.... nice post... I agree with you! Been the first post in a while I can say that for. In relation to the credit crunch effect and the timing etc. (from another post): </span>
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</p><p><span>So lets start a timeline from January 2008, the date of the last comment provided from H&G or Parry. Hypothesise that everyone's happy and the bank are making the 'right noises' about continued backing after already recently providing £350m of new funding. Then look at the backers in question, RBS and Wachovia. In April 2008 RBS attempted a rights issue to try and raise £12bn as it battled against the credit crunch and asset write downs from ABN Amro. A sure sign of the rot setting in at the bank. By October of the same year the government had to step in and inject £37bn. Then turn your attention to Wachovia. In the second quarter of 2008 the bank lost £8.9bn, in June the CEO was ousted and a new one was in by July. In September the bank lost, in two days, £5bn of deposits and 27% of its stock value. On September 28th the regulators were concerned that the bank didn't have enough short term funds to open the next day. The bank was then bought out by Citigroup in a deal forced upon Wachovia by the US government and regulators.</span><span></span>
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</p><p><span>While the Hicks and Parry statements were made months after the credit crunch started, the credit crunch did not affect the banks who were backing LFC until after the statements. The timing fits in perfectly with having to put the stadium on hold. Within 9 months of Hicks' statement both of the banks had effectively collapsed, the blame for this not resting anywhere near Anfield. So the banks come back this year in the new era of ultra cautiousness and demand a repayment of £60m, which was paid. So now we have to find new ways of funding the stadium, which from what I can see is happening.</span><span></span>
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Greetings from Norway. This is another excellent piece Jaimie.
ReplyDeleteYou are right. There are no proof that the owners have lied about anything since they took over. They have made mistakes yes, but lied, no I dont think so. SOS has to stop using that argument in their propaganda, or they will turn out to be the biggest liars.
That said; the owners mistakes are to big to ignore. Klinsman, stadium, debt, boardroom fighting. You cant blame anyone for feeling they are no good for Liverpool FC. For many people LFC is a big part of their life. They want the club to be in safe hands. Do you believe the club are in safe hands with the current owners?
Jaimie, you will find any excuse to try and have a go at Rafa.
ReplyDeleteIn truth, the article does not call Rafa a liar, BUT the negative undertones are there (yet again)
Can't believe we are comparing projections on when an injured player would return to the field of play with statements made by the owner on what they would and wouldn't do when purchasing the club. Doesn't one situation have more ambiguity and uncertainty (the injured player) built into it than the other. Again and again and again u continue to compare apples and oranges to prove your points.
ReplyDeleteIn response to:
ReplyDelete3. Jaimie, the fact that Spurs have paid a substantial amount to get planning permission and hire an architect firm to generate detailed plans of the stadium suggests they are moving forward with those plans ( Gillett made the same points about Liverpool spending several millions on enhancing the existing Anfield plans and other "red tape").
Spurs have ALREADY drawn up plans Jaimie, I'd urge you to go to their website and you can see the details for yourself, they haven't just got some GD student to "draw" a stadium!
The fact remains Jaimie H&G has "misled" Liverpool supporters, from Gillett rubbing some £ notes in his fingers saying "Rafa will want plenty of this", to saying "a spade in the ground in 60 days" they've misled us somewhat. A players contract is under written as an untenable asset, it has nothing to do with transfer spending or the funds which a manager has to spend on players, most of the time the Club handle contract renewals it has nothing to do with the manager. If Benitez (for arguments sake) is told he was £20m plus whatever he earns through player sales to spend that's what he should have, somebody signing a new deal has nothing to do with it.
I appreciate the Credit Crunch and it's impact on the Global Economy but we're talking about what what said in 2004, the recession didn't really grip us until 2007, we waited and waited for the new stadium building work to start and it's never transpired, Gillett sold his Montreal Canadians franchise for what $550m as reported by deloitte and has he invested anything further into the Club? Nope. Has any of that money been invested into getting building work under way? Nope. But why?
HE WANTS OUT.
He's looking to make a quick profit and to be honest even IF the building work had started on the new stadium I still believe he'd have been looking to jump ship, it's the same thing Warren Buffet did during the 70's & 80's to make money. Build a company up, present them as a a representation of potential growth and sell.
The fact remains Jaimie, Benitez' NET spend is UNDER £15m a season, that is ridiculous given the expectations put on him and Liverpool by most of the fanbase. I don't want to hear all this "he's spent £220m!" garbage because it's not the case, are the players he's bought still their to the tune of £220m? NO. He had to sell to buy.
Do I think H&G have intended to lie? Perhaps not. Have they misled us in the past? Definately.
Haha. what a complete idiot you are. You must be on RAWK right...
ReplyDeleteHilarious!!
Jeez, when did Liverpool fans become so thick? Can you even add up without usiing your fingers? Talk about missing the point totally!!
ReplyDeleteTrust me dude, the women of Belgrade are well worth being injured for..i'd visit that city to get my groin looked at anytime :)
ReplyDeleteIt was widely reported where? Did you speak to club accountants to confirm this? Are you in possession of the club's official financial plans for the summer? No, you just believe some muppet on RAWK who told you so. Honestly, some of you are just embarassments. You want owners like Chelsea. Go and support them then. This club is suffering from the idiocy of fans like you.
ReplyDeleteThere are no good managers other than Rafa??? There are many better managers than Rafa.
ReplyDeleteYou should look up WACO..it seems you're more deluded than those folks there were.
Garvin - the comparison is between two honest statements of intent. It is a perfectly valid comparison; you fail to see it that way because you're not being objective.
ReplyDeleteHi Ally - thanks for your comments. I totally agree with you that mistakes have been made by the owners. You won't find me disputing that point. Like you though, I dispute that they have lied, and it bothrs me that so many fans are willing to ju mp on the lying bandwagon without considering the facts for themselves.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I believe the club is in safe hands. Other investors will be found in the future, and the H+G shareholding will be diluted. Whatever happens, there will be no doomsday scenario like some fans are predicting. The next Leeds?! laughable suggestion, but many fans think this because they've been whipped into a frenzy.
Hi Taf - There's a first time for everything ;)
ReplyDeleteI read your Blame Game post - excellent stuff. I've been linking to it at the top of the page for the last few days.
Fantastic point you made about the timing of when the credit crunch affected the banks backing LFC. Despite that strong, persuausive evidence, people will still not have it though.
re this article - it really is amazing the number of people who misunderstand or just don't get it. I've had to delete a hundred posts so far of people accusing me of calling Rafa a liar (!); there are people on Twitter saying the same thing, and 'Empire of the Kop' has posted a mini-diatribe against me on their site.
It really is very amusing :)
it was widely reported in every single newspaper in the country, i never said it was fact i said it was reported, so are you truely telling me you wouldnt want an owner who can go and buy any player the manager wanted without question? if so im not sure who the muppet is???
ReplyDeleteI cannot say you are right all the time, but kudos to your spirit amidst all the hostility, personally I never could bother to debate endlessly... after all we are very opinionated/biased about football, but it is disturbing the way that some people like empire of the kop are slagging you off...
ReplyDeleteGoing off-topic, I think Rafa should shoulder most of the blame for what's gone wrong. It's not just injuries/poor form that has led to this situation, a manager ought to have some foresight and have had a Plan-B as opposed to cheap PR-Stunts like saying Barry was crucial to his plans and how Keane was not good enough!
I wonder if the club changed hands and the Saudi Prince took over would it be better? Ideally, a football club should belong to the fans. It'd be great if at least a part-ownership could be achieved by ShareLiverpoolFC or something. Look how well Barca are run...
Completely agree with Joe - sounds like you're just regurgitating what you heard on forum like RAWK. Anyway, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that Benitez was not backed with cash in the summer:
ReplyDelete* 17m on Johnson
*18m on Aquilani - it doesn't matter if only 5m was paid upfront, the entire amount is payable by 2011.
* Millions spent on extending contracts of Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, benayoun and....Benitez, something that you no doubt wanted.
I estimate that contract extension for those 5 above would cost 10m+, and that is a very conservative estimate.
And you seem to forget that in 2008, Liverpool spent 70m! Yes, 70m. That is the figure recorded in Liverpool's 2008 accounts, and includes the purchses of Keane, Mascherano and plenty of others.
barca are well run, but dont forget that the likes of barca and real have been working this way since the clubs were formed, i honstly dont think a fan owned system would work here, ok maybe they would be able to raise the cash to buy the club, but then what? would they be able to be completely self sufficient and be able to raise cash for the day to day running of the club, transfers, wages etc. i seriously doubt it, in an ideal world it would be great, where we could all vote on club matters but in reality in a situation where this has never been the case then i dont think it could work.
ReplyDeleteSpot on, Guest. Buying clubs outright wit cash is the exception, not the rule. It doesn't matter how may times you make this point though, some fans are so pigheaded they just won't accept it.
ReplyDeleteSpot on, Joe. And it's not that much of a left-field analogy; the same kind of collective thought process led to the WACO tragedy is going on with Liverpool fans, except in place of David Koresh, we have websites like RAWK, TIA and writes like Paul Tomkins.
ReplyDeleteHi A Red - agree with you about the PR stunts - such an obvious spin offensive in the last few days with all the articles in 'The Times'.
ReplyDeleteRe 'Empire of the Kop' - I get attacks like that from other websites all the time. Just goes to prove my point about some fans even more. Just read their 'rant' - in they write 'and he even defends Hicks and Gillett sometimes'.
That displays their point of view vrey clearly: H+G are evil and must never be defended. Even if the criticism is wrong, they should still not be defended.
They want everyone to ignore the facts and just slag them off all the time, even if there is no reason to do so.
In short, they have no ability to be fair *ever* when it comes to the Owners.
I'm glad they posted that article to be honest - it just makes them look stupid.
firstly i dont know what RAWK is, all i know is what i read in newspapers, and what i read is that rafa was promised 20 mil for transfers plus what he could sell plus the keane money, i never said any of it was fact all i said is it was widely reported in the press, all i'm going on is what i read, so if i'm wrong or its not the case fair enough, i can only give opinions on the information i have at hand and what i have seen. to call me an idiot for wanting owners that can can buy whoever rafa wants without any financial contraint at all is a bit harsh, i understand this is the way it is.
ReplyDeletei never mentioned anything about 2008, im well aware of who and what we have bought.
Good article - It's a very fair point, highlights the inconsistency of attitude / approach of some people. I do sometimes wonder if you're sponsored by G&H but in fairness someone needs to be making a counter argument to the knee-jerk xenophobes.
ReplyDeleteit's not a matter of what i think or what you think, it's about what we KNOW!!
ReplyDeleteyou say Morres wouldn't have sold if there had been a chance of history repeating itself, but how can you know this?? maybe he was offered enough money that it didn't matter what happened after he sold.
Also the vast majority of due diligence is done by the buyer the seller just needs to insure he will be paid.
while i wouldn't call us a cowboy operation, even Hicks has described Parry as incompetent, so i wouldn't put much faith in and background checks he has done!
Perhaps you are right... Can't a part-ownership work? And yes, Barca and Real have been run that way for a long time, but we can be frugal for a few years and then build on it. I am hardly an expert in these matters but smaller clubs in Spain like Villareal are so well run and they gave Man Utd a run for their money!
ReplyDeleteWe must also take into consideration that Barca and Real's success is due to the fact that the fans don't tolerate any nonsense. White handkerchiefs were out just because Real got knocked out of Copa Del Rey! Imagine if Barca started playing Liverpool-brand of shoddy football! Benitez would never last a season at Real with his "tactics", He knows this I guess, so, he is staying put with us.
yes these smaller spanish club are well run i agree but like i say the system they use there has always been that way. i fear if were frugal for a few years would create a kind of vicious circle, perhaps we would not qualify for the champions league which means we bring in a lot less money, which means we would not be able to bring in the class players we need and would have to sell the top players to balance the books, which means the season after teams like city and spurs would push even futher ahead and so on and so on.....and where a part owner ship is concerened? look at the amount of turmoil etc at the boardroom over the last few years with only 2 owners, i would worry if there were a few thousand not all pulling in the same direction
ReplyDeleteHi Kbill - I'm not sponsord by H+G (!) - if you knew me in real life you'd understand why that would be impossible. I would never take money to advance someone's POV or adhere to an agends, which is why I do not write for a newspaper (and I've had the opportunity).
ReplyDeleteBlatant unfairness and ignorant misrepresentation of the truth really gets to me, which is why I defend H+G. It's also why I would defend any LFC player/staff member - including Rafa - if there was some major injustice/twisting of the facts going on somewhere.
This can be seen in the articles I write. This is why I defend Robbie Keane even though I wasn't a fan of his signing; it's why I defend Rafa against his FA charges and calls by the meda/fans for him to be sacked; it's why I defended Yossi Benayoun when he defied Benitez to play in a vital world cup qualifier for Israel last season; it's why I defend Peter Crouch, and other players who were not treated fairly etc. I abhor what I perceive to be unfairness, and that's what underpins everything I write.
Ironically, the same thing applies to people who defend Rafa et al from my criticism - they think I'm being unfair, and I can see that.
just a point here jamie that maybe has to be considered, yes we have spent more money in our history since the new owners came in, but would you not agree that the huge rise in tv money(not sure what it was before this deal but it is now roughly 30 mil per club per season) has played a large significant part in this too? its not just us that have spent more in our history, look at what spurs, sunderland, villa and others have too, i dont think this can be discounted
ReplyDeleteI CARE!!! and so should every Liverpool supporter!! the fact of the matter is he could of held his hands up and said this was our intention but due to other factors it couldn't happen, but he chose to LIE! it goes to show the character of the man.
ReplyDeletei don't beleive a business man of his experience would be so easily confused, unless trying to hide something.
how can Liverpool fans trust anything the guy says when he is a proven LIAR?????
if you don't care it's up to you, but as the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" and i will not let these guys fool me again!!
Your point about rafa 'lying' is completely misguided and a terrible analogy to use to compare with the fans' frustrations about the owners. He is not a doctor and even a doctor could not accurately predict how long an injury of the type sustained by Aquilani will last.
ReplyDeleteThe frustrations with the owners was brought about as a result of the petty falling out that Hicks and Gillet had. This much publicised farce left them open to criticism from the press and fans and was the direct cause of every little misdeed of theirs being highlighted and scorned.
Well, Jaimie, Keep it up. I like to believe that I support a club whose fans don't succumb to mob-mentality that's so pervasive in football.
ReplyDeleteSigning off for the night.
You say 'he chose to lie':
ReplyDeleteDefinition of lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive
Do you really think Gillett deliberately intended to deceive?
Try and be objective here, and keep your irrational hatred of he owners to one side for a moment: Is it possible that Gillett had a memory lapse and could not recall saying what he said?
Let's remember that he was in an impromptu interview with an aggressive SOS member, and the original statement was made more than 2 and a half years ago.
Also, why would someone deliberately lie when the evidence to prove he was lying could be found in 5 seconds flat?
Again, is it not possible that Gillett got confused and just misremembered?
Yes it is, and thinking logically about it, this is the most likely explanation in my view.
LivaPul who is this better manager you seek?
ReplyDeleteHas the club not moved forward since the day Rafa Benitez arrived?
We need new owners, more money a new manager...thats is then?!?
I dont believe Rafa is faultless I've disagreed with decisions he has made and I have never talked about the owners being liars but i dont believe they are faultless either
You speak of being a true fan so what happened to supporting your team (that includes the manager) so he may not be the man to bring home the title (personally I think its in him.. but thats another matter).
We are better off now then we were before Rafa came along I am grateful for what he has given us and I'll reserve judgment until the end of the season... But I guess I'm just a deliberating idiot who isn't a true fan
The way you write its as if the man has taken us to brink of relegation
"Do I think he deliberately intended to deceive?" YES
ReplyDeleteI think he found himself in a tough situation and would have said anything to get himself out of it!!
He didn't just forget saying it, he remembered someone else say it!!
more to the point he remembered his partner saying it, should they not as partners speak as one on matters concerning Liverpool??
I find it more logical that having found himself in a sticky situation where he couldn't answer the questions and he went with "IT WASN'T ME"
even if at time he did think it was Hicks (his partner) who made the statement why didn't he say yes WE said this but the situation changed??? it shouldn't matter which one said it they are partners this was just a diversionary tactic!!
Jaimie, or should i call you George Jnr/ Tom Jnr? I've never read such rubbish you really are anti Rafa! You can't base an article on someone predicting when a player will come back from an operation, just so it strengthens your argument that the Americans don't lie (which we all know they do!) Every injury can have complications and each person recovers in a different length of time - there are no certaintys and as a manager when asked by the press you can only go from what the doctors tell you. Are you sure your not a manc - you make me angry! Tit!
ReplyDeleteto be fare, the americans are either very bad business men or they lied, there american sports empires where in trouble before they bought liverpool.
ReplyDeleteso obviously they new they would not be able to build a stadium unless they could find money from the banks. may be they thought the could get another loan, but the credit crunch stopped that. if they did get the loan it would have been more debt on the club.
as for rafa over aquilani's, there has been a lot of miss information. if liverpool where doing well, it would not be an issue, no one would care. the fact that where playing badly turns it into an issue. everybody wants to see are supposed match winner play. I think aquilani is ready but rafa does not want to introduce him yet because the team are still not playing well enough, and rafa and aquilani will be slated again the team do not do any better with him playing regardless of how well he ma play individually. so lying to protect a player can be fore the greater good.
the americans have never built a stadium before, so they lied to the previous owners to get the club, then lied to the fans about the time scale of building the stadium, they lied about the debt to be put on the club, all to protect them selves
so in truth rafa and the owners have lied, I find rafa's lie a bit more palatable.
these are facts senor kanwar
ReplyDeletehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6919462.ece
As a Red I am getting a bit fed up with your constant attacks on Rafa why do you call yourself a red Aqualine is not Lazarus he was never going to be allright overnight and we Red fans knew that from day one, so why bring it up now have you run out of sour grapes it is a little bit like your Robbie Keane article we have all got over Robbie whats is name, why cant you or is it because you have what I have asked about on a number of occassions WHAT IS YOUR HIDDEN AGENDA! why can,t you see we are against H & G for the right reasons the good of the club, we have been brought up on and love like a member of our own family and I for one have seen you for what you are a Manc loving H & G sycophant
ReplyDeleteYou're now banned, Bob.
ReplyDeleteRoy - that Times Article is not fact at all. The article is written by a pro-Benitez writer, and this week The Times has engaged in a massive pro-Benitez spin offensive.
ReplyDeleteThe net spend is 35m off the actual target, and may of the figures are wrong. For example: The Times state Baros was sold for 6.1m - I checked Aston Villa's financial report for the year baros was bought and Villa actually paid 7.1m.
Only a small difference there but if multiply that by dozens of other difference you can see the potential for inaccuracy.
Believe it though if you want.
The irony of this article is that if I could be bothered I could find a direct quote from George Gillette saying that it was not him that said they would have a spade in the ground and in the same time it took me to write this I could have watched the entire press confrence on youtube where it shows quite clearly that he did in fact say that.
ReplyDeleteIts quite clear that your are trying to tar Rafa with the same brush as the owners to serve your Anti Rafa agenda with this article because as has already been said this article serves no purpose other that to try and discredit Rafa's supporters and make you seem like the reasoned well balanced fan (lol had to laugh when I wrote that)
RealityPeePool, in case you didn't realise, my post was aimed at IRWT bridgade that keep constantly defending his terrible mistakes and make up terrible & shocking excuses for his failures. For 5 years, Rafa has had time to adapt to the PL and he hasn't. He's so stubborn, he doesn't seem like he will change his negative ways to benefit Liverpool in the near future. I appreciate that u appreciate his CL and FA cup win (i do too). But he hasn't proved himself capable of winning the EPL.
ReplyDeleteThe IRWT bridgade my post was aimed at, make up silly myths such as 'he hasn't been given enough money' or 'he has his hands tied to his back'. He has been funded well but wasted the money. I don't want to discuss it so if u want proof he has been funded, Jaimie has made many articles that explain the fact Rafa has been funded. Now i don't know about you but if you had been funded 220+ million for 5 years, won't it have been better to spend 22 million each on two quality/world class players each season, or to waste it only 5-7 players each season, costing 6 million per player. It's called saving up. And Rafa didn't have to sell some of the players such as Riise and Sissoko. If he had done this wise thing, he wouldn't be in the situation he is now, with a lot of average players in the squad.
Also, he plays his negative 4-5-1 formation often against lowers teams with negative tactics, when he should play an attacking formation, with as many attacking players on the pitch as possible. He has had 5 years to learn this but has he? NO. This problem was fixed with Alonso playing as a deep playmaker and it worked last season. However Alonso has gone so the system won't work until Aquilani becomes fit (and Lucas isn't Alonso). Thefore the system is broke.
You've all heard, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. But if it's broke then fix it. I was hoping that in the first game of the season against Tottenham, we would play 4-4-2, with gerrard and mascherano in the centre, kuyt & torres up front and benayoun on the right. This was an attacking team and could have beaten tottenham. But we lost because he didn't do this. He had the chance of the applying this in many other games such as Aston Villa, Fulham and Sunderland. But did he? NO! He won't learn and try to play positive football for the benefit of LIverpool. Instead he would rather continue the negative football he has kept playing for 5 years!
Pathetic IRWT bridgade fans praise Rafa for getting Liverpool their highest league total ever and a good title race last season. But did we win the PL? NO. Why? Because of his cautious negative tactics in some games such as Stoke, Fulham and West Ham. Also, he subbed off Gerrard for Lucas in the 2nd game against Wigan with 5 min to go. ONLY 5 MINS. What happened next, Lucas conceded a penalty, they equalised and that another draw for the season that cost us the PL. We should have won the PL last year but Rafa stopped us from doing so. Also, these fans forget that Rafa knocked us out of other competitions to come 2nd in the PL.
What an achievement! NOT! He shouldn't be praised for makin us 2nd. I wouldn't have minded this year if he continued the progress we made last year but we haven't progressed because of his stubborness.
I didn't say I wanted him sacked now. It won't do the club any good. When a better/attractive manager comes along, then he should be sacked. It don't have 2 be a proven one (Pep Gurdiola won a treble in his first season at Barca, Paisley wasn't experienced but he was successful, Shankly was successful and Daglish wasn't experienced but he was successful).
I want Liverpool to be successful and I don't think Rafa can be successful in terms of the Premier League, more than once, in the next 5-7 years.
Rafa should be proclaimed 'Prophet of Anfield' as he is always right! He always gets results when LFC need it! So wher are the Real Trophies? He had no money to spend! He made LFC more commercially competitive! He challenged for the Title once! He only bought 70 odd players! He bought fringe players at 6 to £8M! LFC fans blame the players for not motivated enough for games, not the Manager! Wake up people. No wonder Man. Utd are still laughing, next is Man. City.......I am thinking of the next game and the next game......
ReplyDeleteLivapul we are a top 6 team in everything but history and our manager. Our ground is no where near the size needed for a top 4 team, our spending as much as you would like to believe the media has been approx 15m a year net. Spurs have spent more! That is the main fault of fans like yourself that do not rate Rafa or at least give him a chance. You see us as having a divine right to win the league when in fact we are a top 6 team buyoed a few top players a great history and a top class manager. Do you expect Spurs to be in with a chance of winning the league? Because that is where we are in everything but fans (arguebly) and history
ReplyDeleteAnd whobis to say the 1mill discrepancy in the Baros deal was not agent and signing on fees? Villa allocated 7.1mill to the purchase of Baros it does not mean that we saw that full amount
ReplyDeleteMr Kanwar do you really believe that it is a good idea to buy a club with no
ReplyDeletedebt and then place a huge debt around its neck in the tune of £250m - £300m with large interest payments every year. Under Mr Moores we did have net transfer spending and profits were ploughed back into transfers, Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissosko, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt et all and we were generally selling players who we wanted rid for eg. fringe players, players who didn't cut it and players coming to the end of their contracts. He made a mistake selling to the americans, they made a promise to put no debt on the club, they went against their word.
Mr Moores resigned. Mr Moores is a honourable man he made a huge mistake, ask him and just by talking to him you will know that the situation at the club is tearing him apart.
He is red through and through.
Yes since the americans have been here we have brought,
Torres,Mash,Johnson,Aquilani and Babel,
But we have sold,
Alonso,Crouch,Bellamy,Cisse and Sissosko
and they have financed those purchases.
You say who cares who lied - Liverpool fans care!
You say be objective to the american owners-
Liverpool fans say you be objective to Rafa and get behind him and the team not continually stabbing him in the back.
What about when Gillett said LFC would not be run the way the Glazers run Utd, having the club ingulfed in debt.
ReplyDeleteStop twisting the facts to suit your silly attention seeking argument!
Where do you get the 15m net spend figure? Did you just pull that out of the air? It's not accurate in the slightest. Why do people just make stuff up?!
ReplyDeleteSigning on-fees are dealt with in the P+L section of the club's accounts. Player sales/purchases are classed as intangible assets, which is a totally different section.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, the same principle applies to all figures - for example, how do we know that the 8.5m we got for Michael Owen doesnt include Agent fees and any other associated fees?
I have examined LFC's accounts thoroughly, and there are lots of discrepencies in The Times article. I'll be posting a comprehensive review soon based on club accounts which will show the true state of Liverpool's spending under Benitez. And the actual amount spent is close to 260m, not 225m
Why do people twist anything to suit their agenda? I could have said that Rafa has spent £220 million to build a squad worthy of winning the league but then that would have been a lot of nonsense too as we quite obviously have not had £220mill divided by the number of years he has been here worth of talent come to the club.
ReplyDeleteNice attempt to avoid the question. Again: where did you get the 15m net spend figure?
ReplyDeleteFor goodness sake EGG, I didn't say Liverpool had a divine right to win the EPL. I stated I want Liverpool to be successful. Wouldn't you? If you don't, clear off and support a division team. There, you can get behind a poor manager & team and you can defend the manager's failures while the team ain't getting promoted or winning trophies.
ReplyDeleteSo is that it? Being a top six team (without trophies) is acceptable by all standards to be successful. What a fool you are indeed!
As for giving Rafa as a chance, he has had 5 years man. FIVE YEARS! So don't give that crap about giving him a chance. I stated in my earlier post, the numerous mistakes Rafa has made that he can learn from but does he? NO. You also choose to ignore that topic but state we should give me him a chance, lol.
Dont do what other foolish IRWT bridgade fans do: talk about net spending. It doesn't change the fact that he spent more than £220 million for 5 years man. FIVE YEARS! He didn't have 2 sell 2 balance the books did he? Who threatened him with a knife 2 sell 2 buy eh? Who forced him 2 sell Robbie Keane, to decrease his 'net spend'? Who forced him to sell Crouch? Sissoko? Riise? Exactly my point. He sells as he wishes and replaces them with average players. In fact that isn't half the problem.
He doesn't have the man-managament skills and intelligence to develop young average players into quality players like Arsene Wenger. Because if he did, Babel, Lucas, Spearing, Darby, Nemeth and Pacheco would be good players now who could help our squad depth. But can Rafa do this? NO!
It reveals your silliness and low intelligence in calling Rafa top class. Shankly was CLASS. Paisley was CLASS. Rafa isn't.
History is great. But we are in the NOW and going to the FUTURE. The future don't look bright with Rafa and that's why if we want to be successful (meaning being 1st not a top 4/6 team), Rafa must be replaced soon after the end of this season.
iv noticed a trend where Jamie tends to stop engaging in arguement when his opponent (for real want of a better word!!) speaks as much sense as he does.
ReplyDeleteI have massive respect for your blogs, but only engaging in arguement when it seems clear you are in the 'right' and then halting when confronted with a very strong counter arguement doesn't reflect well.
iv noticed a trend where Jamie tends to stop engaging in arguement when his opponent (for real want of a better word!!) speaks as much sense as he does.
ReplyDeleteI have massive respect for your blogs, but only engaging in arguement when it seems clear you are in the 'right' and then halting when confronted with a very strong counter arguement doesn't reflect well.
iv noticed a trend where Jamie tends to stop engaging in arguement when his opponent (for real want of a better word!!) speaks as much sense as he does. I have massive respect for your blogs, but only engaging in arguement when it seems clear you are in the 'right' and then halting when confronted with a very strong counter arguement doesn't reflect well.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you like the site but you are completely wrong with your contention. If you are a regular reader then you would know how false what you're suggesting is. I endlessly debate things with people who post compelling arguments. That's the whole point of the site. I can't respond to every comment due to time constraints; and when several comments basically state the same argument, I'll only respond to onw.
ReplyDeleteIf you're so sure about what you're saying, please provide examples.
Who are you to say who can and can not support Liverpool? My point was that we have top 5 at best finances, Stadium and Commercial revenue (even though that is rapidly improving) your saying that Rafa is a failure because he has not won trophies but then any manager would struggle to win trophies. We are punching above our weight being in the CL every year yet you give little credidt to the manager for that.
ReplyDeleteYou say that he didnt have to sell to balance the books when this is clearly inaccurate. Rafa has had to trade up the whole time that he has been here. Or in simple terms for you if you truely believe that Rafa has not had to trade up and are even half decent at maths then work out the folowing for me.
How much was the squad worth when Rafa arrived?
How much has Rafa spent since arriving?
How much has Rafa recouped since he arrived?
How much is the Squad now worth?
See didnt mention net spending just simple maths ;)
If what you believe is true then all those should add up quite nicely for you and we will have a team worth 220mill more than what he started with unless Rafa has made some huge losses in the Transfer market (which im pretty sure that he hasn't)
And I am no fool at all.
You list players that were sold but Keane was clearly not cut out to be a Liverpool player and spent more time moaning than playing, is that the type of player you think we need? Crouch wanted to leave for more first team action, should he be in a team ahead of Fernando Torres? Sissoko was a good player but lost a lot of form after some injuries and we traded up for Masch, who is the better player? Riise had past his peak and was on the decline so I can understand that one even if it has bit us on teh ass with Auerlio being injured a lot.
You say that he doesn't have the ability to man manage and develop young players but yet he made Gerrard the player he is today, Reina has become a world class keeper and Torres has developed far more than some thought he would. That is not including players like Insua who has made the first team and debut at international level. Even the ever used Scapegoat Lucas has made the World Cup fancied Brazil squad. Of course some of his signings have not been successes but name me one manager who has ever had a 100% success record.
Ironically in the list of young players that Rafa "has failed to develop" you name 2 players who are a product of what was our woefull Academy in recent years in Spearing and Darby, neither regardless of coaching or man management will ever be good enough for a top 4 team and it is a clear indication of why no more players have come through under Rafa, its because the Academy had just not developed any players good enough.
And Calling me silly and of Low intelligence for calling a manager with the honours list of Rafa Benitez as top class :-D is laughable in the extreme. Just because you do not rate his methods does not mean that a lot more knowledgable people than you or I do not.
It was an Arbituary figure I plucked from the air. It seemed far closer that the 44mill a year that some on here would have us believe we have spent in the last 5 years
ReplyDeleteBenitez has said in a few interviews lately that the club were wrongly advised by a doctor over Aquilani's estimated recovery time when he signed.
ReplyDeleteEnd of story.
Why do you start the article with such a misleading headline? The comparison is silly. Must have too much time on your hands.
ReplyDeleteOh really? Post a link to one of these interviews please.
ReplyDelete(This is not the point of tha article, but since you bring it up...)
Just so we're clear, hypocrisy is usually where you accuse someone of a shortcoming or fault that you yourself are guilty of. There is no hypocrisy here, just an inconsistent set of standards being applied.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I do think Gillet and Hicks had significantly more motivation for not being entirely truthful. They were new owners of the club and there were clear question marks over their intentions, the amount of debt the club may incur and how supporting they would be of Rafa. They went to great lengths to endear themselves to the fans and generate a positive attitude around their ownership. Part of that would have included a bold statement on the new stadium. There's no reason to consider it a bold-faced lie but I don't think it's out of the question to consider they were overly optimistic with little regard for the accuracy of their statements.
Rafa, on the other hand, was just relaying information from the doctors. He's been dealing with sports media for a long time in countries where they have a reputation of being particularly savage. He knows very well that if he makes erroneous statements about the player's level of fitness he's going to get burned. Also, he was off only by a few weeks. There is STILL no stadium deal for LFC and we're a long way into the future of that original statement. They weren't just a little bit out, they were really really wrong and it's hurting this club quite significantly.
When DIC were going to buy the club there was 2-4 weeks of due diligence, Hicks and Gillett 2-3 days.
ReplyDeleteOkay - but just so we're clear: the article is not questioning the veracity of Benitez's statements; I'm using them as an example of true statements of intent, and then arguing how ridiculous it would be for someone to accuse him of lying. The same principle applies to Gillett's comment: a true statement of intent, which has been seized upon by Liverpool fans, who have proceeded to ridiculously suggest he lied.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that a lack of a stadium is hurting the club. how cdould it be - a stadium is not built and opened in 2.5 years. Even if the stadium was being built, Liverpool would not yet be receiving the benefit of it.
Listen Kanwar, support your local team, you have no idea what is going on. Whothe hell do you think you are?
ReplyDeleteReally pointless and tenuous link there Jamie. You're comparing Rafa's assessment on the debut date of a player with H&G's promises for the running of the football club. Let it be known I support Rafa AND at least Hicks. I just think that Hicks was poorly briefed by the previous administration and didn't know when to shut up. Hence the more he engaged in positive thinking outloud the more he left himself open to accusations of being a liar. It appears that you are engaging in your tiresome double pronged attack on Rafa and SoS. But it's a comparison that is so disproportional I wonder if you are purposely 'going against the grain' because it is part of your general character. You are a very smart guy Jamie but at times you seem to display no sense of perspective or proportion in your articles. The fact you maybe technically correct on some matter doesn't make that matter significant or even relevant. The comparison about the possible lying over the fitness of a player and the POSSIBLE lying over the financial future of the football club is redundant in my opinion and no amount of statistics can dissuade of that.
ReplyDeleteHow many more people are going to completely misuderstand this article? it really is mind-boggling how people fail to comprehend the most obvious points.
ReplyDeleteFor the hundreth time: This is not about whether Benitez lied or not! Benitez lying has absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm trying to illustrate how utterly stupid it is to label someone a liar when they make an honest statement of intent that doesn't pan out.
In the first half of the article, the reader is supposed to think how ridiculous it is that I'm labelling Benitez a liar. That is why after that section, I make a comparison with Gillett's comment in a bid to illustrate how equally ridiculous it is to label him a liar.
So:
* I highlighted several statements that Benitez made regarding Aquilani's injury.
* I highlight how these statements in hindsight were not accurate.
* I the explicitly state that this DOES NOT make Benitez a liar. The point being that a genuine statement can subsequently be proven to be inaccurate without necessarily undermining its original integrity.
I then compare Benitez's honest statements of intent with Gillett's honest statement of intent.
The overall point of the article is to highlight how some fans are quick to call the americans liars on essentially the same basis.
In other words: hypocritical fans call Gillett a liar for making an honest statement of intent that didn't pan out, but they would never dream of labelling Benitez a liar of Aquilani. Why?
Because it would be ridiculous to do so!!
The same goes for Gillett.
I hope you can see the point now.
Jamie, why are you bringing in to question the fans and accusing us of double standards??? All fans want is what's best for the club, that's what makes us fans,,maybe you should be doing an article on the effect of negative media coverage on our club. Once fans have made their minds up about something or someone that hurts our club it is nigh on impossible for the situation to be reversed. We do trust Rafa as we remember what he has done for the club and he has done as much as anyone with respect to making the club more commercial. Exactly what have the owners done for the club in a positive way? not supporting the manager?? In fighting in the public arena?? Lining up Klinnsman??
ReplyDeleteI think the point is there was a power struggle to begin with, partnerships don't work as there is too much room for it to backfire,,Liverpool needed a single owner, and DIC would have been the preferred option, except they wouldn't match the fee Moores an co wanted.
But isn't it possible that Gillet's statement was not just a statement of true intent? He had plenty of reasons to distort the truth, that's what I'm trying to get at. When a person makes a statement that turns out to be catastrophically untrue I don't think it's unreasonable to question his original motives. If you can also see that he indeed would have plenty of motive for not being truthful it lends more support to the idea that it wasn't just an innocent error in judgement.
ReplyDeleteAs for not hurting the club, it sounds like you're arguing semantics. Every year we don't have the stadium under construction means the further we are away from being able to compete with other European giants in terms of gate revenue. Sure, we wouldn't be raking in that cash at this exact moment, it's hardly the point. Rather than being 6-12 months away from addressing that issue we are in fact still 3-4 years away. No doubt it hurts us in potential only, but you have to maintain a pretty narrow point of view to not consider that a problem.
I take your point about Gillett - yes, it's possible he lied, but looking at the situation objectively, there is (IMO) no evidence at all to suggest he's lying.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing people are failing to consider here is this: Gillett was not 100% sure about the 60 day time-frame. The press conference in which he made the statement proves this. This is how the exchange goes:
GILLETT: "The shovel needs to be in the ground in, what, 60 days?
*Gillett turns to Rick Parry for confirmation
RICK PARRY: "Yes, that's right, more or less".
Clearly, Gillett was not setting the deadline here - he was repeating what he had been told by Parry at an earlier time. See for yourself (skip to the 20 second mark):
http://www.youtube.com/v/cMyKZjxmjQE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140
It's not like H+G marched in full of bravado and proclaimed 'We're gonna starts the stadium in 60 days!'.
This is a complete non-issue that has been blowed completely out of proprtion.
I'll be posting an article about this tomorrow anyway as 5his '60 days- rubbish needs to finally be laid to rest.
<span><span>Jaimie Kanwar</span> replies:</span>
ReplyDelete<span><span>Yesterday, 11:41:36 PM GMT+08:00</span></span>
<span>"People make mistakes. Corinthians appears to be a mistake; but then you have to balance that out against all of H+G successes with various businessess - sports or otherwise - since that time."</span>
Please do the same to mr benitez jaimie :)
Awesome aticle mate,howerver the yanks can not be defended in my humble opion they came in knowing the reds starting position(in terms of playing staff e.g cisse,traore)they claimed we would be able to compete with top teams around europe,surely you can agree we are not able to compete at this time,fact.Stupid people band figures around that liverpool over the past five years or whatever have spent just as much as as chelsea,arsenal and utd, failing to notice that liverpools side at the begiining of benitezs riegnwas clearly infferior to that of near rivals .Now the americans come in say they aim to make us the biggest club in the world,they have failed to deliver, granted they don't have the cash,stand up the reccesion, but perhaps then thier fucking stubberness should be put to one side and they should find a buyer.You talk about georges 60 day statement,saying it was simply an estimate akin to that of benitez with regard to the fitness of alberto,but injuries such as aquilanis are fickle monsters and they had to adapt continually to the changes,where as when ungle fucking george made his statement the financial situation did not change over 60 days,if there was a valid change in the economy that promted the yankes to change thier mind,then why has gillet subsequently denied making the statement.This is not a witch hunt, im simply saying that they have failed to live up to thier billing,this coupled with the fighting and lack of communication,which has cripled us publicly,should make it clear that they are not the men to bring us forward.
ReplyDeleteNo I did read the full article and it's clear that you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're trying to say "well if H&G are liars then surely Rafa is" basically pitching the H&G 'faction' vs the Rafa 'faction'. What I'm saying is the scale of the lying accusation (I want to clearly state though that I don't believe that either party lied, merely were over optimistic to appease a naturally demanding set of fans) is so disparate as to render your comparison null and void. Most concerned Liverpool fans (many of whom read too many papers or listen to too many overly sentimental Liverpool fans) are infinitely more worried about the perceived financial r@pe and euthaniasing of the club than the delayed date of a player's debut. Only someone with an agenda or little concept of proportion would use that as a viable comparison whatever they felt about the matter. A good journalist doesn't dwell in his own arguments and lose the proportionality in the process. That's how they becoming the Glenn Becks and Jan Moirs of this world. Anything, any stat, any comment to prove an argument and although they may be techinically right at times you lose step and empathy with the truth.
ReplyDeletetHIS IS THE WORST ANTI RAFA AND ANTI LIVERPOOL PIECE OF DOG TURD I HAVE EVER READ, YOU ARE CLEARLY A MUPPET WITH TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS, GET A PROPPER JOB AND LEAVE WRITING ARTICLES TO PEOPLE WHO DO A PROPPER JOB. IDIOT!
ReplyDeleteI think the problem with the owners is that other clubs have been taken over and a substantial more mone money has been pumped into them for transfers.
ReplyDeleteI know your most likely to reel off our transfer spending but if you look at it this way maybe you'll see a different side.
We need a relatively large squad with players that can compete domestically and in europe, hence the purchases of players like Babel, Sissoko, Lucas, Dossena. The owners have provided money but not enough to compete in getting a squad like Chelsea or Man Utd. Rafa has got a squad but only a few would make a difference to the starting 11. We haven't been able to purchase 20million plus players on a regular basis, and when we do we only get one player that year. And that is where we are falling short. Squad is not good enough, but not enough resources provided to buy world class subs.
Look at how much money HArgreaves, Carrick, Rooney, Ferdinand, Anderson etc cost and only 2 of them start every game.
We are some way behind in terms of competing in the transfer market, and therefore our team is always behind.
No Desy - you have displayed your profound misunderstanding of what my article was all about. You can twist thigs al you like but the bottom line is you just don't get it. There are pley of people on this thread who do get it, and on page one, several people have had to explain to others who - like you - got the wrong end of the stick.
ReplyDeleteSince you can't see what I'm saying or understand that I'm attacking hypocritical fans rather than Benitez, there is no point debating the issue further with you,
talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. aren't there more important issues than 'who said what and when'.... post something interesting for once
ReplyDeleteDesy, you are a muppet. in actual fact, you have agreed fully with what the article tried to point out in your 1st comment
ReplyDeleteI THINK RAFA IS ALL OF THAT. FULL OF FACTS. HE IS IN THE SAME CLASS AS HOULLIER. 12 YEARS SINCE A YOUTH PLAYER CAME THROUGH. IT'S TIME TO BLAME THE AMERICANS. EACH TIME LFC LOOSE THE ATTENTION TURNS TO THE AMERICANS. WHEN LFC WERE WINNING THEIR LAST FEW GAMES IT WAS DOWN TO RAFA. WHEN THEY LOOSE IT'S TIME TO BLAM THE AMERICANS. I THINK MR PURLOW TOO IS A LIAR! RAFA HAS NOT DISMISSED HIM YET AS HE KNOWS THE FACTS THAT HE SPENT MILLIONS AND THIS CANNOT BE DISPUTED. HE WILL BE CRYING SOON. GREAT TACTICIAN BUT VERY ISOLATED AND DOES NOT COMMUNICATE WITH HIS PLAYERS.
ReplyDeleteIN RAFA I TRUST.
MANYOO SUPPORTER.
You're starting to be boring.
ReplyDeleteI get your approach of taking the path least travelled, I do, it makes for interesting reading, sometimes makes you realise that things ain't necessarily so and all that.
But honestly, the verbal gymnastics and leaps of faith you're going through to do it are starting to grate.
His recovery took longer than expected. It happens. It's not an example of anything other than that.
To compare Rafa getting it wrong over Aquamans fitness with the explicit statements of G+H saying they will start building the stadium right away and give Rafa money shows your incompetence and desperation. Injuries are a bit like the weather. You can never be exact when a player will be fit. G+H were very exact in saying the above statements as well as lying about not piling debt on to LFC. Your Anti-Rafa stance has reached new depths.
ReplyDeletePleae, keep it coming. Your response just goes to prove my point yet again about certain sections of fans. I have to ask: are you really this dumb? are you really incapable of seeing my *very clear* argument? You clearly did not read the full article. What's the problem - do you not have the attention span to read to the end and then THINK critically about what you've read? Hilarious!
ReplyDeleteFrom now on, I'm just going to dumb-down everythig I write and just focus on the simplest of arguments. It's clear that the majority of people who don't get this article only understand the following argument when it comes to football:
ReplyDelete"In Rafa we trust!'
They understand that, but nothing else.
I have read a few of your attention seeking ramblings and have not agreed with, enjoyed, or seen the point in any of them.
ReplyDeleteGuest, that because you don't want to understand the fair points Jaimie is trying to make. The point of this article is not against Rafa benitez. But since you are probably one of those foolish IRWT bridgade fans, you are deliberately ignoring the point he's establishing.
ReplyDeleteBasically IRWT bridgade don't think Rafa lied intentionally about Aquilani's fitness. However, they began to hate on the owners who had not intentionally lied about their plans for the stadium and called them liars. If the Rafa (the saint) did not lie about aquilani's fitness and ur not branding him a liar, then the owners cannot be called liars too. If u do this, ur being unfair.
This article is just revealing the hypocrisy of many IRWT bridgade fans that unjustly accuse the owners of some mistakes that weren't made on purpose but don't accuse Rafa of similar mistakes. Basically, if Rafa isn't lying intentionally about Aquilani's fitness and isn't called a liar, then the owners can't be called liars as well.
You just need to analyse the situation properly, not just jump on the bandwagon that the owners are evil and always lying on purpose to ruin the club. They're not perfect but they've done a decent job.
Excellent article; just wanted to let you know that there is someone who understands it.
ReplyDeleteMr Kanwar you must be so intellectually deficient to think we will all fall for your double speak. Your so called 'balanced reporting' is disguised to hide your hatred of Rafa and your backing for the owners. You still fail to grasp the simple concepts. Piling on hundreds of millions of pounds on to the club is slightly different to getting it wrong about a players fitness. To say that they did not mean to put our club in debt is ludicrous. Gillette has made alot of money from selling some of his assets. why does he not use that to ease our debt. STOP making flimsy excuses for these leeches
ReplyDeleteLets just say rafa did lie about Aquilani's fitness how can anyone equate this with the americans lies about the debt and the stadium. Wow a football manager wrong about how long a player is out for! Owners lie about putting 300m debt on club! Owners lie about stadium! Yes, that Rafa he's such a lier, i wish i could just oooooo!
ReplyDeleteYet again you display your stunning inability to comprehend the simplest things!
ReplyDelete1. Balanced reporting? Please post the text where I've stated I offer balanced reporting. I've never said that *ever*. In fact, I've said the opposite, i.e. like every football fan on the planet, I am biased.
2. You're still comparing fitness to money? How simpler do I have to put it so you'll understand?! It's about comparing HONEST STATEMENTS OF INTENT and how the fanbase treats Rafa differently from H+G, despite both have made honest statements of intent.
3. Where did I say 'they didn't mean to put the club in debt'. I've said no such thing. I stated - and this is a FACT backed up by the club's own financial accounts - they bought the club with no debt; the debt was added later. There is a difference.
I'd heard the statistics were very high when it came to people who could read things but not rally comprehend properly, but I never realised the stats were correct until I posted this article. You read the words but you don't understand their meaning.
There are some very good points raised here but I have to say I agree with very little that the author has offered. The owners from the very beginning have promised more than they have delivered and at times have outright lied!
ReplyDeleteThe Klinsman saga, the signing of Snoogie Doogie, the new stadium, the Hicks said this, the Hicks did that, the it's all Rafas fault Mr SOS member whoops I never said that, blah blah blah!! Most of the LIES have passed through the pursed lips of a highly defensive George Gillett and not a very quiet Tom Hicks but either way expectations have not been met.
Yes, Liverpools' commercial viability has become much more apparent since the reign of Mr Purslow began and his appointment was clearly inspired but it is important to remember that this only came about due to Rafa getting his own way and if it had been up to Gillett then Parry would still be at the helm. The same Rick Parry that narrowly missed out on Christiano Ronaldo at £7m because he was too lightweight and wouldn't sign Anelka, last seasons top scorer.......oh, and instrumented the whole Keane saga by not signing the player Rafa really wanted, Barry, thus also bringing about the departure of Xabi!!
Anyway, I have gone a little off topic, my point is that it is my opinion that the owners at times have lied whereas Rafa was clearly stating his desire to have his player fit within the timescale he had been advised was possible!
There are some very good points raised here but I have to say I agree with very little that the author has offered. The owners from the very beginning have promised more than they have delivered and at times have outright lied!
ReplyDeleteThe Klinsman saga, the signing of Snoogie Doogie, the new stadium, the Hicks said this, the Hicks did that, the it's all Rafas fault Mr SOS member whoops I never said that, blah blah blah!! Most of the LIES have passed through the pursed lips of a highly defensive George Gillett and not a very quiet Tom Hicks but either way expectations have not been met.
Yes, Liverpools' commercial viability has become much more apparent since the reign of Mr Purslow began and his appointment was clearly inspired but it is important to remember that this only came about due to Rafa getting his own way and if it had been up to Gillett then Parry would still be at the helm. The same Rick Parry that narrowly missed out on Christiano Ronaldo at £7m because he was too lightweight and wouldn't sign Anelka, last seasons top scorer.......oh, and instrumented the whole Keane saga by not signing the player Rafa really wanted, Barry, thus also bringing about the departure of Xabi!!
Anyway, I have gone a little off topic, my point is that it is my opinion that the owners at times have lied whereas Rafa was clearly stating his desire to have his player fit within the timescale he had been advised was possible!
In response to my earlier comment u said
ReplyDeleteGarvin - the comparison is between two honest statements of intent. It is a perfectly valid comparison; you fail to see it that way because you're not being objective.
Since when has this site been about objectivity. Over and over u rail on about it being ur opinion and ur not here to present balanced reporting (objectivity?). Like I've said b4 its one thing to have an opinion but u clearly just raise issues to debate for debate sake.
The point with honest statements of ingtent is that H&G had more certainty in their financial numbers than Rafa had in determining Aquilani's return timetable and were better able to forecast wheteher they would be able to deliver or not. IMO (and this is an opinion driven site per the owner!!!) they knew they couldn't seal the deal without making those statements and promises even tho the bleakness of the markets was staring them in the face. They didn't dial back till after the fact and thats what IMO ppl can't stand. They continued perpetuate something they jknew they couldn't deliver till it was plain for all to see. Then and only then did they dial back the rhetoric.
Listen Jamie are you really a liverpool fan? Yes the fans hate the owners and we ve got all good reason to hate the owners. I aint denying that they've done some good things because they have but they have also done alot bad.
ReplyDeletePoint No 1 - Doesnt matter what they said or not said they have put debt on the club which if you are a fan you cannot be happy about.
Point No 2 - Tothehem hotspurs are getting a new a stadium before us
which once again not a good thing.
Point 3 - They ve bought the club on the cheap and were asking for ridicolous amount of profit from the dubia group which for liverpool fans not accepted - we pay for tickets.
Part 4 - Money for signings - all the players you have mentioned could have even been bank rolled by moores the reason club was sold to compete with big boys..... so yep they have signed players but this has been bank rolled by ,,,,,sissoko, risse, alonso, bellamy, crouch, garcia, arbelo, gonzalez .....
Plus two years ago this was our squad:
Reina, Idanje, Finnan, arbelo, hyppia, agger,skirtel, risse, aurellio,
alonso, gerrard, mascherano, lucas, benyoun, babbel, pennant,kuyt,
kewell, torres, crouch, voronin
This season we have got
Reina, cavilerri, jhonson, degen, kastos, agger, skirtel, carragher, aurellio, lucas, gerrard, mascherano, lucas, aquillani, benyoune babel reira kuyt torres, ngog voronin
I know benetiz hasnt always bought well but if you look at our in goings and out goings you will se over two years we have spend less then what we have bought....... so who do we blame your dad?????
Rkitect, ur entitled to your opinion but Jaimie's point is that they didn't lie about stadium on purpose. They had an honest intent on starting the developments of the stadium but facts are there to demonstrate why it wasn't able to materialise quickly and so was delayed. They didn't lie intentionally - what will they get out of lying on purpose?
ReplyDeleteIn the same way, Rafa had an honest intent in Aquilani being fit quickly in a certain time period. This hasn't materialised. Does this mean he is lying on purpose? No.
In the same way, the owners weren't lying about the development of the stadium. So it's unfair to call them liars if Rafa isn't a liar as well.
The fact that so many people are misinterpreting your article might be down to the fact that it is poorly written and completely pointless, rather than you having some greater knowledge and understanding than most liverpool fans.
ReplyDeleteI despair of fans like you, I really do. Have you ever thought critically about anything relating to LFC or do you always just regurgitate what you hear on other message boards/TV/The press?
ReplyDeleteGood to see you alway derogatory remarks against myself Jamie. Hope you delete the comment below yours (thanking you in advance). My point is simple. Yes it is technically hypocritical but in effect the potential accusation of lies over the debut of a footballer and the allegations of lies over financing and running of a football don't effectively equate. For instance say I did believe tha Benitez misled us over Aquilani's injury. And say I did believe that H&G misled us over their financing of the club. Surely the potential effects of those accusations holds weight? So you must know that an anti-H&G individual is not going to reasonably equate that as a 'crime' on the same level. The simple effects of the possible misleading is so disparate to render one a minor issue and another a major. Not everything is in black and white in the real world and hence neither will peoples reactions fit squarely into a box especially when the ramifications are taken into account. It doesn't make them a hypocritic for not agreeing that an Oliver Twist should get the same prison sentence as Bernie Madoff. All I'm saying is that the whole Rafa analogy is disproptionate to the point of ridicule. However I agree with your assertion that neither lied. I just feel that the link between the two is scurilous and unwarranted. Ps: again thanking in advance for the removal of the personal attack that followed your response.
ReplyDeleteThe link between the two is not unwarranted. People reading the article are supposed to think I'm being ridiculous for suggesting that Rafa might have lied over Aquilani; then they should see that I'm not actuall suggesting he's lying, just trying to point out how ridiculous it would be for someone to think Rafa was lying.
ReplyDeleteBy the same toke, the implication is it is equally ridiculous to repeatedly accuse Gillett of lying over the 60 days comment.
I make a parrallell between two honest statements of intent, and how the fans reacted to each one. The difference in each reaction is, in my view, unfair and hypocritical.
The people who endlessly label Gillett a liar scoff at the idea that Rafa would be called a liar over Aquilani, but that is precisely the point! They are basically criticising their own hypocrisy!
And I would argue that the Aquilani situation and running of LFC are perfect comparisons, mainly because it could be argued that if Aquialni had been fit from day 1 (or if Benitez had bought a fit midfielder), we would not be on the verge of elimination for the CL, which will mean the loss a significant amount of money for LFC.
The same goes for the league - had Aquilani been fit ffrom day 1, we might not be fighting for 4th place as early as October; and if this bad run continues, we may not qualify for the CL next season, which would be another catastophic loss of revenue.
Anyway, I appreciate the points you've made, and the civil way in which you've debated the issue.
Nice one Kanwar Hater!
ReplyDeletethis site just wants controversial articles ...
ReplyDeleteSuppose the placenta treatments are next ?
Hey Livapul - thanks for bringing clarity to the issues several times during this thread :-)
ReplyDeleteValid point Livapul but this is only one instance where you could argue that the owners stopped short of lying. There have been many more instances where you could perceive them as having lied or at the very least intentionally misled i.e. the debt situation.
ReplyDeleteEither way you look at it, the Laurel & Hardy show (public airing of dirty laundry etc) has been a damaging period in the clubs history and I for one would not shed a tear if the owners decided to sell up.
However, as this is clearly not the case at present it is worthwhile making it clear that there are many things I think the owners have done which are clearly paying dividends for the club and I applaud their loyalty to Rafa in this difficult period on the field.
Sack Rafa
ReplyDeleteThis isn't evidence it's speculation. Shabby and potentialy libelous speculation at that.
ReplyDeleteThere is no precise science for predicting long-term complex injuries of the type that the Aguilani has suffered from. Any reasonable person would take this as a given. This blog famously distorts to set an agenda though. Unpleasant but I guess you're getting your kicks.
Jaimie do you ever get the feeling you're banging your head against a wall?
ReplyDeleteI see the points you are trying to make but I just don't see the point in it. What you are trying to do is get people to change their way of thinking and most fans who are already H&G haters will not change their minds. Let SOS and these fans say whatever they want. SOS are a union and have set out their agenda and won't change that until H&G go, or they pump a load of money into the club and we win the league. Then they'll shut up because like most fans they are fickle and want success.
It all comes down to opinion. You are not going to change their opinion in exactly the same way that I won't be able to change you opinions on Rafa's man management. Its what you think and fair enough. I don't agree with you but I am not going to try to change that. We are all fans of the same club but we are all individuals. I like Rafa so you would probably say I was part of the IRWT brigade. But at the same time I don't have a problem with H&G either. So where do i sit?
Whilst your intentions are in good faith it seems futile. They use the 60 days/spade in ground stuff because its a good slogan. You are an intelligent enough bloke to know that SOS didn't really believe in what he said. Just thinking about it logically you know that their no way that a project of that magnitude could have been started in 60s days of that statement being made. Gillet used it as slogan, SOS are using it now as slogan to achieve their aims and becasue it fits into their agenda of getting H&G out.. Most reasonable fans know this, and don't take it literally.
<p><span>Is this site being sponsored by H & G??? This is a serious question since I have never read such repeated one sided reporting of Hicks and Gilletts handling of LFC. </span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>H & G may or may not have lied in the traditional sense regarding the new stadium, but having some experience a with planning and large construction projects when the statement was made, Gillett was purely playing the positive PR card and when making his off the cuff "spade in the ground" statement he actually knew it could not have been physically achieved. The simple reason for this was that Hicks had already said that he and gillett wanted there own </span><span>architects to review and modify the design.<span> </span>Due to this work being required, plus they still wanted the North West enterprise money, which requires the new designs to be reviewed and approved, before they can be submitted for planning which takes a minimum 8 weeks.<span> </span>Gillett knew all of this work was required and so knew 60 days was out of the question, but he thought (correctly at the time) that it would provide a good positive PR statement which no one would mind extending (the 60 day spade in the ground) once people had seen the design.<span> </span>I believe that if they had not overseen other LFC controversies misleading Rafa on how much money he had to spend and trying to replace him with Klinnsmann etc etc he would have got away with his glib PR statement.<span> </span>As it is their mistakes have come back and Gilletts PR statement – which really was a lie will follow them forever whilst in charge of LFC.<span> </span></span>
</p>
And by the way I do believe that Rafa misled us about the extent or Aquilani's injury. And I do believe that Hicks & Gillett misled us about the effective financing of the club. But I also accept that they did it for the best of the club and for genuine reasons. They both intended it to be that way but I believe that they must have been aware that there was a strong possibility that it could be a lot less optimistic outlook. But in order to appease fans, shareholders and potential investors they floated the best case scenario in a manner that would suggest a much stronger and solid position than in reality. It's not lying but it is PR.
ReplyDeleteI'm not upset at either to be honest. Liverpool as a team and as a club have been mismanaged for years before Hicks and Gillette or Benitez. They are trying to create a successful club from the bones that were given by the likes of Parry, Moores and Houllier and as optimistic as they may be the realities are that it will be difficult and some plans won't go as expected.
Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City and maybe now Tottenham have stolen a march on us as we dithered over sponsorship deals and continuously opted for bargain basement 2 For 1 deals (which I worry is a policy that Rafa has adopted rather than save his money and concentrate on the promotion and coaching of reserve team players in auxillary positions [Warnock for Dossena, Spearing or Guthrie for Lucas], while spending the saved money on big name 'game changers'). In a perfect world we would have a new stadium, Barry AND Alonso, but people make plans and God laughs.
My point is that comparing what I believe to be misleading information from both is an apple and oranges situation. It doesn't make someone a hypocrite if they don't display the same level of indignation for one party as they do for the other. You are painting the situation in various shades of black and white. In that way, yes you are right. H&G didn't lie and neither did Benitez. And if you are calling H&G liars then you should reserve the same judgement for Benitez. If not you're a hypocrite. Technically yeah you're right.
But just say I did believe that H&G lied. And I also believe that Benitez lied. Should I reserve the same ire for the people who I perceive to be in the process of r@ping and pillaging the club as for a guy who lied about the debut date for a new player? Does that make me (the hypothetical me that is) a hypocrite and a 'head-in-the-sand' fan if I don't march against Rafa in the same way Hypothetical Desy marched against H&G? I don't think so. I think it just means I have a sense of proportion. You call it staggering hypocrisy while I call that comment staggering hyperbole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: CONTEXT IS ALOT. Before we go into conversations which border on the accusational and use incendiary words such as liars and hypocrites we have to take into account context and effect. Everybody on this planet is a hypocrite in some way. The issue is whether that hypocrisy is minor to the point of being inconsequential or significant enough to be labelled 'staggering'. In this case it is (in my opinion) very much weighted on the inconsequential side and i feel that your article stood alone on the defence of H&G (which, believe it or not I actually agree with and am actually somewhat impressed by the direction that they are currently taking us, as is Rafa it appears) rather than using Rafa as some kind of pivot.
Why is it that you allow yourself personal attacks on people and refer to them as "Dumb" because they do not agree with your poorly contructed agruement, but if people question your motives there posts are removed? I thought you were a trained journalist - try and reafirm your arguement rather than resorting to pathetic name calling, it only goes to weaken your case.
ReplyDelete<p><span>Is this site being sponsored by H & G??? This is a serious question since I have never read such repeated one sided reporting of Hicks and Gilletts handling of LFC. </span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>H & G may or may not have lied in the traditional sense regarding the new stadium, but having some experience a with planning and large construction projects when the statement was made, Gillett was purely playing the positive PR card and when making his off the cuff "spade in the ground" statement he actually knew it could not have been physically achieved. The simple reason for this was that Hicks had already said that he and gillett wanted there own </span><span>architects to review and modify the design.<span> </span>Due to this work being required, plus they still wanted the North West enterprise money, which requires the new designs to be reviewed and approved, before they can be submitted for planning which takes a minimum 8 weeks.<span> </span>Gillett knew all of this work was required and so knew 60 days was out of the question, but he thought (correctly at the time) that it would provide a good positive PR statement which no one would mind extending (the 60 day spade in the ground) once people had seen the design.<span> </span>I believe that if they had not overseen other LFC controversies misleading Rafa on how much money he had to spend and trying to replace him with Klinnsmann etc etc he would have got away with his glib PR statement.<span> </span>As it is their mistakes have come back and Gilletts PR statement – which really was a lie will follow them forever whilst in charge of LFC.<span> </span></span></p>
Just a couple of points:
ReplyDeleteYou cannot categorically say we lost the spurs game because we didn't play 4-4-2.
Gerrard was not subbed for Lucas in the Wigan game: Lucas started.
You are right to blame Rafa for us not winning the title last season, but only as much as you are wrong for not giving him the credit for getting us within touching distance - you can't have it both ways.
YNWA
Hi Gary - My goal is not to get people to change their minds, it's just to ensure there is a different POV out so that we don't all have to just accept the SOS/RCDNW take on things.
ReplyDeleteI also want to force people to justify themselves - that's a key aim of the site. People go around spouting endless generalisations about x, y and z and/or just regurgitating what they heard on a message board/the news/ TV etc. Many of these people just robotically repeat stuff which they've assimilated, and I want to challenge them and then force then to justify their views.
In the discussion process, these people are forced to think about WHY they have a certain POV on something, and perhaps some of these people realise - even on a subconcious level - they need to be more open-minded. less insular and less prone to being spoonfed their opinions.
If this site rattles people into thinking about how they view things then it has done it's job. If people want to continue being ignorant, then that's their affair.
In my case, I read countless compelling arguments from people on this site, and although I have my core beliefs about certain things, I take on board what others say and I do see certain LFC things in a different way as a result.
And I don't think you're part of the IRWT brigade - I can see that's not the case from the arguments you post on here.
Don't get me wrong, it is worthy of discussion but you're fighting an unwinnable battle. There are those that will read it and digest it, not necessarily in agreement but will see your view. Then there are others that have already made up their mind regardless of what you say. You seem to be debating mostly with the people who have already made up their minds. And regardless of the discussion and debate they won't change their mind. Luckily for us this is the minority. By the way, I also have nothing against SOS. I'm not against what they stand for. They have the right do so. Just inthe same way you have the right to have your view on H&G and other things Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteI think you got it twisted once again jamie....
ReplyDeleteIts not rafas Job to bring a player back to full fitness!
Its the medical staffs job...
He doesnt even have to give time scales if so wishes not to.
As it makes no diffrence to when aquilanis injury heals or not...
Rafa is judged on what happens on the pitch, which is within his control!
H+G on the other hand on the other have there part to play off the pitch and when they gave deadline for stadium, such big talk will get scrutinised by the supporters... Irrespective of the reasons behind it failings.... You understand that jamie...They failed to deliver... Your kind of talk
It may have something to do with the fact, that most us did not believe there statement of intent in the first place.... And we were proven correct!
You see jamie... The difrence between our rafa and your money grabbing yanks is so obvious....
Rafa was offered an unlimited kitty at real madrid and a much bigger salary.... But he continues to decline these offers because hes in it for footballing reasons... Mainly for the love of Liverpool....
Unlike rafa, the yanks on the other hand, are it purely for financial gain ....
when an offer to fill there bellys come along ...They be gone like the wind back ito the states looking for basketball team to put into debt....with no sign of a new stadium in sight!!
So dont ever compare rafa to H+G its very disrespectful....
Nice try tho jamie!
Your analogy is poor jaimie.
ReplyDeleteMr kanwar your lack of understanding astounds me so I will answer the points you have put towards me as simply as I can.
ReplyDelete1) When I stated 'balanced reporting', this was a general aknowlegement of your websites slogans such as "critical realism " and "..rejecting BIASED media hype..". Please don't suddenly act dumb. Also thank you for admitting your biased. Maybe you want to put that on the top of your page.
2) Trying to get away with "..You're still comparing fitness to money?..... It's about comparing HONEST STATEMENTS OF INTENT " shows your simple thinking. This is the basic rules followed by a robot. Let me explain if I may.
If I say to my kid " son i will take you to the park on saturday" but fail to do so it is a whole lot different to " son I will make sure you go to the top private school next year". There is a degree of severity of the 2 statements. Aquaman being fit a few weeks later than stated can have implications but not on the same level as not building the stadium as promised, piling on debt and promising but not delivering on millions to be spent during the summer. Please dont expect us to be naive as to put their promising to give Rafa money in the "..statements of intent" box. You see Mr kanwar its about simple mathematics. When someone brakes one promise there is an understanding that there was intention but outside forces prevent that promise coming into fruiton. The problem here and it is something you keep failing to grasp in nearly all your articles is that MANY promises have been broken leading to astute fans labelling them liars. Trying to compare this pattern of "statements of intent" with one from Rafa getting it wrong about Aquamans injury shows your lack of rigour even on simple matters.
3) Although you did not mention the debt, you are missing the point of 2 peoples continued promises which have been broken compared to one managers mistake on his players injuries. Again please don't act stupid. Also, and this really astounds me, is your pointing to the fact that they piled on the debt after buying. They would not have been able to buy LFC with debt in the first place. But they did and this is FACT, promise not to put the club in debt.
If you still dont understand where you are going wrong with this ridiculous and desperate article then God help all of us
THE BIGGER PICTURE - PART 1 (This is long - make a cuppa and get comfy haha)
ReplyDeleteThe club had to be reshaped completely after years of poor management and lack of commercial nowt at board level. Jamie I read you're article about bringing in Martin O'Neil and it made me understand what the problem is with many fans, yourself included. Now yes I am talking about another point completly seprate to the one in this article - but as I say it better highlights what I am going to say.
The truth is many fans don't truely understand what is going on at the club. Jamie I doubt you have an Anfield insider feeding you information so you're articles about our debt levels, the true cost of Kronkamp's transfer etc... had the best intentions, but if pressed I am 100% certain that you get your facts and figures from the same places as us all - the net or press.
The problem you have is deciding which you believe are right and the ones which are wide of the mark. So there's no way you're 100% right when you start discussing stuff like that.
So OK, where does it leave us now? Well again - the bigger picture needs to come into play. Rafa's been here 5 years and the owners 2 and a half. We've spent more than we've ever done, as well as recouping the most we've ever done in sales.
But we also have debt now that which ever way you want to argue it needs to be serviced. This cannot be purely done by buying and selling, nor can you gurantee success on the pitch which in turn brings in more prize money.
We've now secured and are still seeking a record amount of commercial income. We are finding ways to maximise the LFC brand and rake in more and more income.
On the pitch however it isn't as easy as that. We've all played football manager - that's easy. But look at what Rafa and the club is trying to do - work from the ground up. Benitez has not been able to develop a youth system as he soon discovered that despite bringing in a seemingly endless stream of young signings (Anderson, Hobbs, Nemeth etc..) they structure of our youth set up is miles behind that in Spain for example. The reserve league is a joke too.
This meant a major overhaul was needed. King Kenny has been brought in as a advisor - he is doing work that he did when he was manager - actively working with young players, meeting potential signings and their families. A throw back to the family side of the club that allowed us to sign the likes of Fowler, Gerrard, Owen and McManaman when all they could have easily gone elsewhere (Everton for example with Fowler and McManaman). It was this side of the club that made them feel at home and want to join.
We have brought in the coach who over saw the development of Messi, Fabregas, Iniesta and Xavi at Barca to nurture our talent. We have one of the youngest reserve sides in the league and we're top.
The youth players are being told how to play the game by the very best. To pass and move. Educating them the right way. The Liverpool way. This template is drilled into them from the earliest youth sides and right the way through to the reserves and then melwood in the hope that one, two, three or more develop into a regular first team player.
The idea is to save the club millions in having to buy ready made 1st team or squad players from other clubs. This is something rafa's had to do from day one. I am in no doubt he feels that he can transform our success rate at developing stars of the future.
So if the club can do this the money can be then put towards the stadium. More money could be used to buy one expensive signing each season that costs more the 20 - 25m we've seen recently. This would be a sign of progress.
We've progress every [...]
Part 2 (Told ya it was long!)
ReplyDeleteThe bigger picures shows that while we have perhaps been stuck in 2nd gear this season that this team is going somewhere. Not just the first team but the reserves, youth and coaching.
Rafa is doing it his way and has had to deal with a board that at first didn't have a lot of money. Then owners that as you have tried to point out came in with the best intentions but found themselves helplessly short of the mark and are only just starting to get their act together. He's rejected Real 4 times, showing loyalty and commitment to LFC and fans like you and me and everyone on here.
And then I come on and read articles like yours that seem to forget all of this. The articles on here to me seem to be reactive rather than pro active.
And this is where I can finally revert back to your piece about Martin O'Neil.
The bigger picture demands rafa, and now the board too deserve time to see this project through. We're in a difficult spell on the pitch after seeing out a rough ride of it.
Regardless of your views on H & G, rafa or the 'agenda' of SOS or yourself Jamie I reckon our club is in good hands from top to bottom. The debt is a worry yes - but the people at the top are bringing in more money that ever to cover it. Rafa and his coaches are always working to devlop every player to get the most out of them and scouring the world to find potential stars to bring to the club and give them the best possible chance of making it - again saving us millions.
Whether you're for or against rafa, the owners or anything else consider the bigger picture before putting it into words. And that's not directly at you Jamie, but it goes for everyone who comments on here.
YNWA
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll respond properly tomorrow when I have more time, but for now I just want to address your issue about my source at the club. I DO have an insider who provides me with information. You are basically saying I'm lying about that. I am not. I would not lie about something like that. I woudn't do that as it's pathetic.
ReplyDeleteYou can choose to disbelieve me and that's fine, but my source has asked to remain anonymous, and I will respect his wishes.
The reason my source provides information is he is concerned with the masses of false info out there re LFC's finances.
My source gives the info to me because my site is the only site on the net (including those of the national newspapers) that has NOT jumped on the 'H+G are the evil' bandwagon, and has tried to be objective about the accusations levelled at the Owners.
Believe what you want, but my source is real.
Guest with the 2 parter: Great post, sometimes things need to be put into perspective, particularly now while we're in a wretched run of form. Hopefully that will change tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteRafa went on the record to say that the doctor made a mistake on how long the injury would take to heal. Rafa can only be guided by medical staff, so I can't see how he is lying when he gives his comment in good faith.
I just can't for the life of me, see how that is in anyway comparable to the spade in 60 days comment. Because some years later we still don't have a new stadium. Even if they were wrong by 100%, 120 days, thats long and gone. At least Aquilani is fit now. The new stadium is even further away than it ever was.
Finally I'd like to comment on the articles on this site. They are so negative they are often nauseating. For the record, Rafa is a world class manager. Just as Gerrard is a world class player, he (Gerrard) hasn't won the league either. You're not a football manager. I'd bet you've probably not played the game at any level, even a kickabout at the park! If Rafa was to do what YOU would do, then I' be worried.
You can keep doing what you're doing, but for me that's no way to be a fan. It's really quite bizarre.
Great post. Good to see someone stepping back, deep breath and consider the factors affecting the club at every level.
ReplyDeleteIn fairness to Jaimie (and his posts) they do get people talking and I think getting posts like these above are what it's all about. I think Jaimie has made a fair point but I'm aware of the negative Rafa posts preceding this one which no doubt colour a person's judgement.
In my own blog I called for 'peace time', as hippy-ish as it sounds, and at least a year of peace and support for our great club. Every level of the club should be left alone for a period, in my opinion. This doesn't mean they are untouchable and 'beyond question; but, we need to realise that we may ourselves cause longer term irreparable damage.
I believe jamie is Possibly a fan of liverpool, but most certainly is a bigger fan of himself....
ReplyDeleteYou see we all can do what you do jamie....
You like to go against the grain and stir supporters up on here....
So silly people like me can react and give your site some credence....
I guess if you wrote some sensible articles i wouldnt know your name jamie....
I like it.... Lol good stuff!
I wish you the best...
Jamie in the same respect that you harp on to people about reading fully what you have written and understanding it before making a statement then I will do the same. I did not or in any way say or imply you were lying about an inside source.
ReplyDeleteFirstly you have never said (or i've not yet read it yet) that you have a source. If you had and then I said that you don't then that's calling you a liar.
secondly, and as you keep saying 'please read it again carefully' I say I 'doubt' you have an inside source. That's not calling you a liar, it was just my asumption. I mean how many of us have inside people?
Anyway finally I was also giving you a small amount of credit in saying I reckon you do a lot of research either via the net or the press to draw on your facts. And again I said that the problem you face by doing this is the same as all fans have - deciding what's being reported correctly or the facts and stories that are not before using them as a basis for an article or argument piece.
Now that you have stated you have a source then fair enough, I stand corrected. But as I said I never called you a liar about it Jamie.
YNWA
I don't know if any of you know anything about American politics and the media but Jamie reminds me of Glenn Beck. When an argument is spun eloquently and laced with verbal traps to lure the less intelligent into arguing on the basis of often misleading statistics which rarely display context, it is easy to get sucked into it. And when you make a point that veers away from his comfortable territory of statistics and quotes he either dismisses it, ignores it or stubbornly sticks to a point which doesn't address the full context. I watch The Wire religiously and the editor of the newspaper Gus Haynes said of a decision to write a piece hammering schools without addressing the surrounding social issues was akin to complaining about the shingles on the roof while the whole building is falling apart. Rafa has made mistakes. H&G have made mistakes. But before we reel off article after article of Rafa's mistakes let's take into account the unsettled environments that he's had to work in. Mourinho would have left the first time they said "sorry Jose, no additional transfer money this year". Waging campaigns without appropriate context is just the flipside of the SoS coin. At least their reasoning is for what they perceive to be the future of the club. Jamie's motives seem less clear and I fear it's more about the personal satisfaction in being a provocoteur and the attention that comes from it. That's more of a psychological nuance which reminds me of the Becks and Limbaughs of this world. I can't say it isn't engaging though.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if any of you know anything about American politics and the media but Jamie reminds me of Glenn Beck. When an argument is spun eloquently and laced with verbal traps to lure the less intelligent into arguing on the basis of often misleading statistics which rarely display context, it is easy to get sucked into it. And when you make a point that veers away from his comfortable territory of statistics and quotes he either dismisses it, ignores it or stubbornly sticks to a point which doesn't address the full context. I watch The Wire religiously and the editor of the newspaper Gus Haynes said of a decision to write a piece hammering schools without addressing the surrounding social issues was akin to complaining about the shingles on the roof while the whole building is falling apart. Rafa has made mistakes. H&G have made mistakes. But before we reel off article after article of Rafa's mistakes let's take into account the unsettled environments that he's had to work in. Mourinho would have left the first time they said "sorry Jose, no additional transfer money this year". Waging campaigns without appropriate context is just the flipside of the SoS coin. At least their reasoning is for what they perceive to be the future of the club. Jamie's motives seem less clear and I fear it's more about the personal satisfaction in being a provocoteur and the attention that comes from it. That's more of a psychological nuance which reminds me of the Becks and Limbaughs of this world. I can't say it isn't engaging though.
ReplyDeleteWelllll you say that, when you're writing an article comparing Rafa's prediction of Aquilanis return wrong by a few weeks to the owners making false promises and lying.
ReplyDeleteIts very tedious and quite childish like your little picture of david Moyes and Gollum. Getting a bit old now.
And if you don't agree, ill use some stats as youre so obsessed with them, this article has 159 comments. Articles that I've written on a rival website get many more than that and Im not just writing about subjects that i know everyone will dissagre just so I get views. Plus my comments arnt all people dissagreing.
If I was a betting man I would say that Jamie is probably compiling more stats to prove that the lack of a replacement for Alonso will cripple the club more than the lack of a stadium. Hence the link relevant. Just to save valuable research time I will that the comparison is still redundant as the people who believe who do believe that H&G lied believe that their 'lies' will result in the destruction of the club. Rafa's 'lies' may result in the destruction of our season. And let's be honest, we have a former Brazilian player of year as his understudy and the possibility of relocating one of the world's best players into his position. We should have been able to cope. Aquilani's delayed start isn't as catastrophic as the complete haemorrage of our football club.
ReplyDeleteJaimie...
ReplyDeletetwo facts:
The new stadium design (different from the obsolete Parry design) was finlly approved, after Judicial review, Sept 15, 2008, The capital markets collapsed at the same time. The "spade in the ground" comment was April 2007.
On Corinthiuns, Hicks Muse had 8 partners doing deals back in the 1990's.... Charles Tate was in charge of Latin America, and sponsered the Corinthians investment. While I approved what was presented, the assumptions of the investment were all wrong. I was involved very much from a distance. No excuse....just means it was very different from LFC, I make my own recommendations...and decisions...on LFC.
YNWA!
Reina, Johnson, Agger, Carra, Insua, Benayoun, Mascherano, Lucas, Kuyt, Gerrard, Ngog
ReplyDeleteToday's team ive been told .......
Direct quotes from the Owners:
ReplyDelete<span><span>“This is not a takeover like the Glazer deal at Manchester United. There is no debt involved,
and we believe that as custodians of this wonderful, storied club we have a duty of care to
the tradition and legacies of Liverpool.”
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<span><span>Tom Hicks February 2007</span></span>
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<span><span>OUR CURRENT CLUB DEBT IS IN THE REGION OF £200M, "THE TRADITION AND LEGACIES OF LIVERPOOL" - PUBLIC SPATS, LIES, PULIC CRITICISM OF THE MANAGER, THE KLINSMANN DEBACLE...</span></span>
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“The shovel needs to be in the ground in the next 60 days or so, and we would intend to
follow that. I think you’ll see the beginnings of a great big swimming pool being dug out
here in Stanley Park relatively soon”.
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</span><span><span>George Gillett February 2007</span></span>
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THE CREDIT CRUNCH HIT, FAIR ENOUGH BUT THAT WASN'T UNTIL THE SPRING OF 2008.
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<span><span><span>I</span>'m not saying they are responsible for all our financial woes as the Global recession played it's part however, why is it that even Tottenham are now able to outstrip us in the transfer market and have plans in place to build a new stadium despite the fact that their Owner(s) aren't as wealthy as our own?</span></span>
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<span>You can paint it anyway you want Jaimie but they've failed to deliver on many of their own targets. It's been two and a half years since they took charge and still no swimming pool, not even a puddle.</span>
Isn't carra banned?
ReplyDeletePropper with 2 P's. Amazing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you really have much of a point - both the owners and Rafa alike have made statements which could be construed as lies. When they do that, we call them liars. We only aim it at the owners more because as anybody who has played football knows injuries don't always go away as planned - they nag, turn into or cause other injuries or just don't heal for whatever reason. This happened with Aquilani and was unforeseen.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, all of your quotes hold no concrete statements: they use words like intend or expect, or use vague time frames for recovery.
lol, I agree, who does he think he is, must need to feel important cos' he ain't from england let alone merseyside. I have inside info, who should i tell? I know some nobody from pakistan!
ReplyDeleteThe same can be said about you jamie you see were both fighting corners the difference is i can back my arguments whilst all you can respond with is "i despair of fans like you" answer my one question has our transfer structure changed since The clonies have arrived i dont think so were still getting 20 million a year, Have we got a new stadium i dont think so, are they quoting ridicolous amount of money for the club i do think so. Did hicks say to his american team fans that moneys getting pumped out of liverpool for them i do think so....So believe what you want.... we as fans didnt ask for much just to compete in transfer market for world class players which we have not been able to do....
ReplyDeleteRafa is one of the most honest managers in football, obviously he is telling us only what the medical staff and specialists have told him about Aquilani. To be honest i'm surprised the lad wasn't out for longer considering he hadn't kicked a ball for about 6 months.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Americans they not only lied about the new stadium plan but a whole list of other things including the transfer budget, they promised that Rafa would have a 20 million budget plus any cash generated from player sales (mainly Robbie Keane) would go towards the signings of new players which obviously didn't happen. Also what happened to the 35 million we got for the sale of Alonso.
They also ensured us that no debt would be secured against the club which was a complete lie, they by all accounts have placed most of their debt onto the club (have they even put any of their own money in).
And more to the point, forget about their lies they should give the manager their full backing, which they haven't they are constantly causing problems which in my opinion is the main reason for the mockery that lfc has become.
You should also give the manager and team your full backing like every fan should SHAME ON YOU for even questioning Rafa's integrity this man has taken us closer to the title than we have been for years and has assembled a great squad considering all the crep he has had to put up with.
The point is Kanwar, you are siding with the biggest scumbags at our club in our history. You could choose to be on Rafas side or you could choose to be in H&G side. Do you really think people respect you? It was Rafa (for the good of LFC) or H&G and you chose H&G. Embarrassing!
ReplyDelete<p>I always said back rafa get rid of the owners and then we will look at the managers position after, you lost your way and joined up with H&G. Im so glad I backed rafa for the good of my club and I can hold my head high and say I never tried to make excuses or justify anything the cancers at our club did because there was nothing that they did which was any good. They had ulterior motives which soon became clear.
You show figures of £289m, but do not mention that was largely the same moeny turned over and over. Your grasp of maths and how accounts work and how money is channeled through a company is laughable. Rafa turned over players as he had to, he never had 50m per year to spend as you claim. He had to sell players to raise a 50m budget that is not the same thing as having a lump sum of £289m. You are biased, and a liar and very economical with the truth to suit your points.
At the end of the day Rafa had only good intentions, he wanted to make a success of the club, the previous owners didnt want that they were only concerned about making money and the way they structured their purchase of the club proved that.
Thats the difference and you standing here trying to make your point against Rafa using H&G to justify your claims against rafa is the most peverse thing I have ever heard.
You should hang yourself in shame!
People read Brian Reades "epic swindle" if you want a proper commentary of what happened or you can carry on believing this nobodys lies!</p>
It has since come out the due dilligence carried out by Parry was that (if you read the Epic Swindle, but then again why let the facts get in the way of your lies) becaue Gillette told him Tom was a good guy that was good enough for Parry.
ReplyDeleteMakes a mockery of your claims.
Since then all Hicks sporting franchises have crumbled. He made one of his clubs intentionally bankrupt he has since said he will no longer get involved with sporting franchises and will go back to his original investments.
Ill be honest m8 I dont know how you can try and justify anything they say, Im glad I never backed them because all the truth has come out since and what many of the posters have told you above has been proven to be true and not the way you claim it happened.