In an interview with 'The Times' today, Rafa Benitez once again laid the blame for Robbie Keane's failure at Liverpool at the feet of the player himself, claiming that he was sold because 'he was not playing at the level we knew he could play'. In my view, Benitez's mis-managment was the real reason Keane did not prosper at Anfield.
In his interview, Benitez stated:
"Keane is a good player but we had to sell him because he was not playing at the level we knew he could play".
With the constant substitutions; playing Keane on the wing; forcing him into an unfamiliar role/system and dropping him every time he scored goals, how exactly was Keane supposed to achieve a consistent level of play?!
Let’s take a look at the facts:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 23
Substituted: 18 out 23 starts
On the bench: 5 times
Unused sub: 5 times
Subbed between 50th + 70th minutes: 9 times
Subbed between 70th + 80th minutes: 8 times
Total Minutes on pitch: 1946
Average minutes on pitch: 69
Goals: 6
Assists: 5
*Goal every 389 minutes
*Goal/assist every 176 minutes
*Goal/assist every 2.5 appearances
COMPARISON: DIRK KUYT (2008-9)
Minutes on pitch: 4509
Average minutes on pitch: 89
Starts: 48 (51 appearances in total)
Goals: 14
Assists: 8
*Goal every 322 minutes
*Goal/assist every 204 minutes
*Goal/assist every 2.3 appearances
ANALYSIS
* Keane subbed/on the bench in 82% of appearances (23 out of 28)
* Subbed in 78% of starts (18 out of 23)
* Only allowed to actually complete a game 5 times
* Higher goals/assist per minute ratio than Dirk Kuyt
* Subbed 17 times between the 50th and 80th minutes - crucial periods in which Keane could've scored/created more goals (Just remember how many late goals we scored last season)
Additionally, whenever Keane scored goals it never seemed to make a difference:
Oct 1: Scores v PSV
Dropped the next game
Oct 22: Scores v Atletico Madrid
Subbed next game after 59 minutes.
Nov 8: Scored 2 against West Brom
Subbed next game after 59 minutes
Dec 26: Scored 2 v Bolton
Dropped the next game
How can any player prosper under such conditions?
How exactly is a player supposed to settle in, build up confidence and gain an understanding with his team-mates when he is ALWAYS BEING SUBSTITUTED/DROPPED?
Benitez's job is to utilise Liverpool's assets in the best way possible to benefit the TEAM. Did he do this with Robbie Keane? I submit that the answer is no.
Look at Kuyt's stats for last season; despite the fact he started 99% of games, his figures - balanced over the season - are not much better than Keane's. The difference is Kuyt had the total faith of the manager, and even when he had a bad spell, Benitez kept starting him.
Example: Nov 2008 to March 2009: Kuyt started 21 games and managed 2 goals and 1 assist in that time. Despite that, he continued to start every game
Now, I was not a fan of Keane's purchase to begin with, but whilst he was at Anfield, he should have been treated fairly. In light of the stats above, can it be credibly argued that he was treated fairly?
Throughout his career, Keane has been a consummate professional, and when played in the right role, he has delivered the goals and contributed to the team. Yet all of a sudden, at Liverpool, this premiership-proven player suddenly became a failure?!
Now, Benitez - in his infinite gall - has once again tried to shift the blame to Keane for not doing the business at Anfield. What he should be doing is accepting accepting some responsibility for his part in the whole fiasco.
With the right man-management, Keane could have been a great player for Liverpool. And given the stats above, I just do not see how it can be argued that Keane was given a fair chance.
And let's not forget that Liverpool were top of the table when Keane left the club - Dirk Kuyt's fan-club always go on about how much he contributes to the team in terms of defending etc. What about Keane's contribution? He undoubtedly played a part in getting Liverpool to the top of the table.
Yes, Keane could have done better with the time he had on the pitch but it's hard to produce your best form when you're demotivated, and have a manager who clearly has no faith in you.
Ultimately, I agree with Benitez on one thing: Keane was not playing at his usual level. However, there were reasons for that, and in my view, the principal reason was Benitez's mishandling/questionable man-management of the player.
Keane - and Liverpool - deserved a hell of a lot better.
See also: Debunking Liverpool FC Myths: No 1 - Rick Parry signed Robbie Keane
Jaimie Kanwar
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In his interview, Benitez stated:
"Keane is a good player but we had to sell him because he was not playing at the level we knew he could play".
With the constant substitutions; playing Keane on the wing; forcing him into an unfamiliar role/system and dropping him every time he scored goals, how exactly was Keane supposed to achieve a consistent level of play?!
Let’s take a look at the facts:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 23
Substituted: 18 out 23 starts
On the bench: 5 times
Unused sub: 5 times
Subbed between 50th + 70th minutes: 9 times
Subbed between 70th + 80th minutes: 8 times
Total Minutes on pitch: 1946
Average minutes on pitch: 69
Goals: 6
Assists: 5
*Goal every 389 minutes
*Goal/assist every 176 minutes
*Goal/assist every 2.5 appearances
COMPARISON: DIRK KUYT (2008-9)
Minutes on pitch: 4509
Average minutes on pitch: 89
Starts: 48 (51 appearances in total)
Goals: 14
Assists: 8
*Goal every 322 minutes
*Goal/assist every 204 minutes
*Goal/assist every 2.3 appearances
ANALYSIS
* Keane subbed/on the bench in 82% of appearances (23 out of 28)
* Subbed in 78% of starts (18 out of 23)
* Only allowed to actually complete a game 5 times
* Higher goals/assist per minute ratio than Dirk Kuyt
* Subbed 17 times between the 50th and 80th minutes - crucial periods in which Keane could've scored/created more goals (Just remember how many late goals we scored last season)
Additionally, whenever Keane scored goals it never seemed to make a difference:
Oct 1: Scores v PSV
Dropped the next game
Oct 22: Scores v Atletico Madrid
Subbed next game after 59 minutes.
Nov 8: Scored 2 against West Brom
Subbed next game after 59 minutes
Dec 26: Scored 2 v Bolton
Dropped the next game
How can any player prosper under such conditions?
How exactly is a player supposed to settle in, build up confidence and gain an understanding with his team-mates when he is ALWAYS BEING SUBSTITUTED/DROPPED?
Benitez's job is to utilise Liverpool's assets in the best way possible to benefit the TEAM. Did he do this with Robbie Keane? I submit that the answer is no.
Look at Kuyt's stats for last season; despite the fact he started 99% of games, his figures - balanced over the season - are not much better than Keane's. The difference is Kuyt had the total faith of the manager, and even when he had a bad spell, Benitez kept starting him.
Example: Nov 2008 to March 2009: Kuyt started 21 games and managed 2 goals and 1 assist in that time. Despite that, he continued to start every game
Now, I was not a fan of Keane's purchase to begin with, but whilst he was at Anfield, he should have been treated fairly. In light of the stats above, can it be credibly argued that he was treated fairly?
Throughout his career, Keane has been a consummate professional, and when played in the right role, he has delivered the goals and contributed to the team. Yet all of a sudden, at Liverpool, this premiership-proven player suddenly became a failure?!
Now, Benitez - in his infinite gall - has once again tried to shift the blame to Keane for not doing the business at Anfield. What he should be doing is accepting accepting some responsibility for his part in the whole fiasco.
With the right man-management, Keane could have been a great player for Liverpool. And given the stats above, I just do not see how it can be argued that Keane was given a fair chance.
And let's not forget that Liverpool were top of the table when Keane left the club - Dirk Kuyt's fan-club always go on about how much he contributes to the team in terms of defending etc. What about Keane's contribution? He undoubtedly played a part in getting Liverpool to the top of the table.
Yes, Keane could have done better with the time he had on the pitch but it's hard to produce your best form when you're demotivated, and have a manager who clearly has no faith in you.
Ultimately, I agree with Benitez on one thing: Keane was not playing at his usual level. However, there were reasons for that, and in my view, the principal reason was Benitez's mishandling/questionable man-management of the player.
Keane - and Liverpool - deserved a hell of a lot better.
See also: Debunking Liverpool FC Myths: No 1 - Rick Parry signed Robbie Keane
Jaimie Kanwar
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The stats really prove nothing. It's clear to see who was the most effective on the pitch.
ReplyDeleteKeane missed a hat full of chances and really contributed very little to the all round team game. The Man Utd game being the only real exception.
Wish the money was used to sign Arshavin instead of Keane.
Hi Jaimie!
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. If Keane had been decently treated he would now be settled at Anfield and producing. He put a lot of pressure on himself from the beginning amongst other things stating that Liverpool was his boyhood club. He tried too hard and coiuldn´t find rhythm or flow and didn´t get any lucky breaks. If that backheel that he missed in front of goal had gone in, we would still be talking about a classic goal. On top of his own misfortunes Benitez treated him disgracefully. Some says that Keane couldn´t hack it at a bigger club. That´s nonsense. To begin with Liverpool is not so much bigger than Tottenham, at least not football-wise and especially this season. Furthermore most players become better, not worse, when playing with better players. This would have happened with Keane aswell. What an asset he could have been in our present injury-crisis. Instead we have to rely on Ngog, Voronin and Kuyt as understudies to Torres. None of the three are hardly prolific in front of goal.
Please explain the point of your article - are you saying that Rafa has poor man management skills, if so like most of your articles they tend to ignore 99% of the other side of the argument.
ReplyDeleteLet me make a few things clear...
1) as a manager we got to 2 euro finals in 3 years
2) last year we pushed united all the way
3) we cant stop beating united without a fully strength side
4) torres
5) insua
6) yossi....
do i really need to carry on?
and if you actually knew anything you want to read the spurs forums and there frustrations with keane this season.
look you say you support liverpool, but all you ever do is find a few facts and write an article on them and ignore anything else.
ive never seen a worse writer it baffles me....
Hi Jaimie!
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. If Keane had been decently treated he would now be settled at Anfield and producing. He put a lot of pressure on himself from the beginning amongst other things stating that Liverpool was his boyhood club. He tried too hard and coiuldn´t find rhythm or flow and didn´t get any lucky breaks. If that backheel that he missed in front of goal had gone in, we would still be talking about a classic goal. On top of his own misfortunes Benitez treated him disgracefully. Some says that Keane couldn´t hack it at a bigger club. That´s nonsense. To begin with Liverpool is not so much bigger than Tottenham, at least not football-wise and especially this season. Furthermore most players become better, not worse, when playing with better players. This would have happened with Keane aswell. What an asset he could have been in our present injury-crisis. Instead we have to rely on Ngog, Voronin and Kuyt as understudies to Torres. None of the three are hardly prolific in front of goal.
I think you'll find that Robbie Keanes failure at LFC was mostly down to the fact he couldn't put the ball in the back of the net. What the hell has he done since he went back to spurs? not alot is the answer.
ReplyDeleteAs for you Jaimie, you might want to start writing about something you actually know about, because it certainly isn't football!!!
Hi Jaimie!
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. If Keane had been decently treated he would now be settled at Anfield and producing. He put a lot of pressure on himself from the beginning amongst other things stating that Liverpool was his boyhood club. He tried too hard and coiuldn´t find rhythm or flow and didn´t get any lucky breaks. If that backheel that he missed in front of goal had gone in, we would still be talking about a classic goal. On top of his own misfortunes Benitez treated him disgracefully. Some says that Keane couldn´t hack it at a bigger club. That´s nonsense. To begin with Liverpool is not so much bigger than Tottenham, at least not football-wise and especially this season. Furthermore most players become better, not worse, when playing with better players. This would have happened with Keane aswell. What an asset he could have been in our present injury-crisis. Instead we have to rely on Ngog, Voronin and Kuyt as understudies to Torres. None of the three are hardly prolific in front of goal.
Rafa's mistake was buying Keane in the first place. He needed to replace Crouch with a quality player who could fill in for Torres and crucially someone who wouldn't mind being on the bench from time to time.
ReplyDeleteStats prove nothing? Right. Typical dismissive answer of someone who doesn't like what the stats show. I Guess Torres' goals/assists stats etc prove nothing either?
ReplyDeleteAnd bravo for this:
Keane missed a hat full of chances and really contributed very little to the all round team game. The Man Utd game being the only real exception.
Typical cliched fan-reponse, perpetuated on Liverpool message boards and in the media.
Here we go again,
ReplyDeletelike most your articles you seem to ignore 99% of the argument and like most your articles you find a few so called facts and base your whole argument around them
so what is the point of your article, are you trying to say rafa has poor man management skills
if so...how about yossi? hardly got a game and now look at him, same with insua etc....
when will you learn that football is just about stats, keane was bought by liverpool to score goals and create - he never did that....yes please blame rafa and it ofc is not the player who as you mentioned played 28 times...now i have a strong belief that if your good enough you play - he never did that and yes he got the opportunity....are u really stating we should play a player merely cos he may get good?
as shown from his season at spurs they dont even think hes good enough to start for them...
the crux is, yes the manager has an effect on a player but to blame rafa for no apparant reason is like most your articles ...a joke....
u say ur a liverpool fan, well maybe act like one for once, and stop pointing out (look i did write a nice article) there is nothing wrong with being critical but at least write with some journalistic sense...not the pile of rubbish
Apple with Apples please.
ReplyDeleteYou can only compare him in term of stats to the player/players who replaced him.
Kuyt was not Keane's replacement or vice versa.
Kuyt was/is primarily used as a right-winger utilising his exception fitness and workrate levels.
Keane is an Attacker/Off-the-front-man player who plays well 2 out of 4 games and often goes missing.
BUT... following your lead - This season after 12 games
Keane = 6 Goals, 3 Assists from 877 mins played in Attack
Kuyt = 3 Goals, 3 Assists from 998 mins played in Midfield
Sometimes players just don't fit in:
Shev @ Chelsea
Saha @ Man Utd
Keane @ Liverpool - its just one of those things. Not everyone is as awesome as Torres!
Not alot? 13 goals and 5 assists since returning to Spurs is 'not alot'?!
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should research properly before making unfounded assertions?
Let it go now. Keane departed almost a year ago, and to be honest has already seen his best years at Spurs. You compare him with Kuyt, but they are simular players and we dont need two. He doesnt score as muc h as we needed him to and does not do this for spurs. Stat: before Keanes last game for spurs he had not scored for 9 maches. Plus we needed the money to place on other players nameley Glen Johnson. This is not mind games, just facts.
ReplyDeleteBobby H.
<span>Here we go again,
ReplyDeletelike most your articles you seem to ignore 99% of the argument and like most your articles you find a few so called facts and base your whole argument around them
so what is the point of your article, are you trying to say rafa has poor man management skills
if so...how about yossi? hardly got a game and now look at him, same with insua etc.... and beaten united like we did...ofc nothing down tohim
when will you learn that football is not just about stats, keane was bought by liverpool to score goals and create - he never did that....yes please blame rafa and it ofc is not the player who as you mentioned played 28 times...now i have a strong belief that if your good enough you play - he never did that and yes he got the opportunity....are u really stating we should play a player merely cos he may get good?
as shown from his season at spurs they dont even think hes good enough to start for them...
the crux is, yes the manager has an effect on a player but to blame rafa for no apparant reason is like most your articles ...a joke....
u say ur a liverpool fan, well maybe act like one for once, and stop pointing out (look i did write a nice article) there is nothing wrong with being critical but at least write with some journalistic sense...not the pile of rubbish
</span>
Rafa brought this issue back into the public domain, not me. i just think it's wrong for him to shirk responsibility and blame it all on Keane. Is Benitez ever going to take responsibility for anything?
ReplyDeletemate, what seriously are you on?
ReplyDeletethe guy led us from no where to euro champs, and premiership challenges....would you really be happy if he left? and we got some second rate manager in?
cos trust me, it really looks as either - u want him out, or u try and write rubbish to annoy people
I think you'll find that with the best managers they have a way of playing and they want their players to play the way he wants them to play. Yes Keane's stats are better but Dirk fits into Rafa's system (and also plays wide right mostly). Dirk tracks back and helps out. Keane didn't. Keane was asked to play a role he wasn't used to, partly Rafa's fault partly Keane's (very few players go to top sides and play EXACTLY the way they want to and for 20m he should have adapted). Keane also missed alot of sitters while he was here (athletico, three in the FA Cup). the trouble is at his age we needed to sell him as he wasn't doing it. Spurs offered nearly all what we paid back so it's not a big loss. So both need to take the blame
ReplyDeleteis it not well known within the circles that rafa didnt actually sign keane & that it was parry....in sayin that, i still believe robbie wasnt given a fair crack at the whip!
ReplyDeleteTEST
ReplyDeleteNo - that is a myth perpetuated by the 'Benitez is God' brigade, designed to shift responsibility fro Rafa to Parry over the Keane signing.
ReplyDeleteTesticles more like.
ReplyDeleteBig hairy ones.
Nice to see comment-makers have already pulled him for trotting out another spectacular piece of "Jaimie research".
You know the sort:
Wake up in the morning.
Wonder how to have another flame bait dig at Rafa.
Take a position based on gut instinct.
Bend all evidence (no matter how loosely associated it is with the case at hand) to suit your position.
Print a few choice of those stats out.
Ignore all others.
Claim the issue as demystified.
If Keane was wrong for the system then why was he bought in the first place?! Rafa's apologists are always telling us how much research he does etc. If that's the case, he would've known Keane would not fit in?
ReplyDeleteNone of that changes the fact he was subbed or on the bench in 82% of appearances; was subbed in 18 of his 23 starts, and was regularly subbed/dropped after scoring.
at this level of the game, some players only get one chance, to say that a player got 28 and never showed anything that much , it my opinion is more then enough..
ReplyDeletethis isnt kindergarden this is a professional game - maybe rafa wasnt to keen on him, who knows, but the fact is, if he was banging them in he would have stayed and not given anyone the chance to get rid of him..
just look at ngog u cant exactly say he hasnt taken his chances, did keane ever have any real impact?
No, its because of YOU.
ReplyDeleteOh and its also Opera's fault, and Robbie's fault.
ReplyDelete5 goals and 6 assists (and Liverpool top of the table when he left) suggests he did have an impact. Why do you discount these things?
ReplyDeleteAnd you keep ignoreing the fact that hwas subbed all the time, which never allowed him to build up rhtym/rapport with other players.
u get subbed for a few reasons
ReplyDelete1) ur playing poorly
2)ur tiring
3) manager wants to change some tactics or rest you
reasons u dont get subbed
1) ur playing incredible
2) scoring goals
3) running the game
if he did any of those 3 things u really thing he would have constantly been subbed.
there are countless examples of players that are not fans or managrers favourites forcing their way into the team...
he didnt do it..ofc
test
ReplyDeleteI totally agree Jaimie!!
ReplyDeleteYou showed simply the true, by statistics and matching the statistics of Keane & Kuyt.
Just a question for everyone: according to Benitez's interview, "Keane was not playing at the level We knew..".
Ok, just a question for RB: Andry Voronin is it playing at levels demanded by Liverpool's standards? Has Andry Voronin the skills, attitudes and character to play for Liverpool?
Come on Mates, this interview is simply ridicoulous.
I'm very, very frustrated by the latest interview of the Boss.
He's blaming everyone: The Owners, Keane, except himself.
Rafa, take careful on the pitch please, You have to turn the things right, cause' the saturday's clash against City is crucial for our season.
Rafa You have to think a you job on the pitch, during the training sessions with the team.
We have to beat Manchester City.
Teams playing Liverpool pack their defences and Keane seemed to have trouble being effective when space was tight. All his best work was when he has space to run into. At Liverpool this was almost never. At SPurs it was a lot more frequent.
ReplyDeleteHe did not do it on the pitch. He had a face like a smacked ass every time he was subbed and 90% of the press coverage was about him and it was all bad. It was clear for all to see that Keane did not have the mentality Rafa needed and he decided to cut his losses before things got worse.
Once Keane left the negativity lifted and results after Christmas were as good as any in our history. Get over it!
Jaimie in the same way you ask people who post replies to, what do you base this "myth" on?? Do you have categorical evidence that this is the case. I dont have evidence to refute the statement, just doing what you always do??
ReplyDeleteThis is now getting tiresome....go and bang another drum. We get that you do not like Rafa - you have made it as clear as day. In terms of what Rafa said, his exact words - <span><span>"Keane is a good player but we had to sell him because he was not playing at the level we knew he could play"</span></span>
ReplyDeletePlease tell where in that statement does he lay the blame at Keane's feet. He actually states that Keane is a good player. Sometimes, like someone has already stated, some players do not gel at certain clubs. Anyone that actually WATCHED our games with keane, cannot, hand on heart, tell me they were convinced by him.
In terms of comparing him to Kuyt, come on - comparing a striker to the most productive right winger (stats-wise - since you are rather keen on them)
Rob -You have a very selective view of history. You state:
ReplyDeleteOnce Keane left the negativity lifted and results after Christmas were as good as any in our history. Get over it!
That is completely untrue.
When Keane left, Liverpool were top of the table. After Keane left, Liverpol drew 5 and lost 2 of the next 10 games (that included 4 draws in a row).
Benitez had his rant at Rafa and things got bad before it got better.
Why do you make blatantly inaccurate statements?
not sayin either is true, but no smoke without fire n all that.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the post is a link to my explanation as to why it's a myth.
ReplyDeleteDear Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteYou have a lot of energy and the fact you write so often is a good thing and if you could only look at the positives in life you would achieve so much. You constantaly write in the manner that show you have no respect for Rafa and focus on only the negitives, even when you appear to be trying to be positive. Perhaps you would benifit from tansfering your writing skills to a different team or sport.
Rafa took the bold decision to sell the player six months in due to a lack of performance and this trend has continued whilst at Spurs. Our potential loss was reduced to a minimum and that is thinking of the club.
It makes me sad to read your articles that are constantly laced with negitivity toward the Manager. Rafa is the first to admit that some of the signings have not been up to scratch but he rarely keeps them long if they are not making the grade or unbalance the team.
Thanks
Andy
YOU SAY STATS PROVE NOTHING BUT THATS ALL YOU TRY TO USE TO BACK UP YOUR VIEWS. I BET YOUR FAVORITE BIT OF THE MATCH ON SKY IS THE OPTA STATS AFTER THE MATCH IN YOUR ARMCHAIR!!! EVER BEEN TO ANFIELD YOU FUCKIN RAT!
ReplyDeletejaimie you retarded hypocrite...youre a waste of skin and oxyegn
ReplyDelete<span>What? You have written many articles bashing Rafa's man management skill and have used Keane as a example any chance you get. Anyways I’m writing about a point you had made earlier saying "13 goals and 5 assists since returning to Spurs is 'not alot'?!"</span>
ReplyDelete<span> </span>
<span>Well let’s see about those stats, shall we? He scored 5 goals and had 3 assists in 14 league games after they paid us 16-17M for him, is that really a good return? that’s a goal every 3 games for 17M. Now this season Robbie has 6 goals and 2 assists in 12 games, looks really impressive on face value but if one looks deeper they can see that stats don't tell the really story. 3 of those goals came in one game against Hull, sure its impressive but it also show that he scored only 3 goals in 11 games this season as their main striker. </span>
Hmmm, shame you actually did not watch those matches Jamie (or did you?) The point you are missing is that Keane failed to fit into Liverpool's system - and the transfer was therefore was a mistake in the first place. Even with Torres absent, Keane failed to step up to the plate, with rare exceptions, because he was the wrong player for the Liverpool team of the time. Perhaps the team would have fitted Keane if Rafa had been able to get in Barry ahead of Keane as he obviously was intent on doing (this of course was the final straw that meant the end of Parry at LFC), but this is something we will never know for sure. What is certain is that LFC would have been a better team with Barry than it is without it, as his performances for both Aston Villa and now MFC make clear.
ReplyDeleteRobbie Keane can only blame himself, he didn't have the mental strength to deal with playing second fiddle to Torres, he was never going to dislodge Gerrard or Torres and I'm sure when he joined it was made clear he'd have to fight for a place. Are you therefore saying Jaimie that Berbatov playing poorly is Ferguson's fault despite all the playing time he gets?
ReplyDeleteI actually watched Keane at Anfield when he played he missed chance after chance, his shot / goal conversion ratio was 26% in the EPL (19 Apps, 31 shots, 8 on target, 1.63 shots per game or 0.42 shots on target per game).
He just didn't cut the mustard, he couldn't make the step up, if he proves me wrong at another big Club then fair enough but he didn't do it at Inter and he's failed at Liverpool.
Dirk Kuyt is a very unfair comparison and I think you know that! One is a striker and one is a Right-Winger for gods sake!
Keane's stats:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 23
Total minutes: 1946
Average minutes on pitch: 69
Goals: 6
Assists: 5
Goals per game: 0.21
Minutes per goal: 324
Cost: £19m
David N'gog stats:
Appearances: 9
Starts: 4
Total Minutes: 375
Average minutes on Pitch: 42
Goals: 4
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.44
Minutes per Goal: 94
Cost: £1.5m
A much fairer comparison if you ask me, both strikers, Ngog has all but replaced Keane as our 2nd choice striker. You see Jaimie, we can make statistics back up any argument.
Robbie Keane can only blame himself, he didn't have the mental strength to deal with playing second fiddle to Torres, he was never going to dislodge Gerrard or Torres and I'm sure when he joined it was made clear he'd have to fight for a place. Are you therefore saying Jaimie that Berbatov playing poorly is Ferguson's fault despite all the playing time he gets?
ReplyDeleteI actually watched Keane at Anfield when he played he missed chance after chance, his shot / goal conversion ratio was 26% in the EPL (19 Apps, 31 shots, 8 on target, 1.63 shots per game or 0.42 shots on target per game).
He just didn't cut the mustard, he couldn't make the step up, if he proves me wrong at another big Club then fair enough but he didn't do it at Inter and he's failed at Liverpool.
Dirk Kuyt is a very unfair comparison and I think you know that! One is a striker and one is a Right-Winger for gods sake!
Keane's stats:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 23
Total minutes: 1946
Average minutes on pitch: 69
Goals: 6
Assists: 5
Goals per game: 0.21
Minutes per goal: 324
Cost: £19m
David N'gog stats:
Appearances: 9
Starts: 4
Total Minutes: 375
Average minutes on Pitch: 42
Goals: 4
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.44
Minutes per Goal: 94
Cost: £1.5m
A much fairer comparison if you ask me, both strikers, Ngog has all but replaced Keane as our 2nd choice striker. You see Jaimie, we can make statistics back up any argument.
Robbie Keane can only blame himself, he didn't have the mental strength to deal with playing second fiddle to Torres, he was never going to dislodge Gerrard or Torres and I'm sure when he joined it was made clear he'd have to fight for a place. Are you therefore saying Jaimie that Berbatov playing poorly is Ferguson's fault despite all the playing time he gets?
ReplyDeleteI actually watched Keane at Anfield when he played he missed chance after chance, his shot / goal conversion ratio was 26% in the EPL (19 Apps, 31 shots, 8 on target, 1.63 shots per game or 0.42 shots on target per game).
He just didn't cut the mustard, he couldn't make the step up, if he proves me wrong at another big Club then fair enough but he didn't do it at Inter and he's failed at Liverpool.
Dirk Kuyt is a very unfair comparison and I think you know that! One is a striker and one is a Right-Winger for gods sake!
Keane's stats:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 23
Total minutes: 1946
Average minutes on pitch: 69
Goals: 6
Assists: 5
Goals per game: 0.21
Minutes per goal: 324
Cost: £19m
David N'gog stats:
Appearances: 9
Starts: 4
Total Minutes: 375
Average minutes on Pitch: 42
Goals: 4
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.44
Minutes per Goal: 94
Cost: £1.5m
A much fairer comparison if you ask me, both strikers, Ngog has all but replaced Keane as our 2nd choice striker. You see Jaimie, we can make statistics back up any argument.
Sounds like common sense that mate you definately wont get a reply! Watching keane live week in week out, he struggled mainly i think with the pressure, too much after the big money move, as Benitez said at the time the media circus was badly effecting the team and the opportunity to get the money back was too good to refuse.
ReplyDeleteKanwar you should be workin on talk sport mate! you'd cause murder!
If you're going to compare stats, them compare Keane's stats with Gerrard's seeing as they played in the same position. I'd be interested to see what you find...........
ReplyDeleteDo you really think that <span><span>"Keane is a good player but we had to sell him because he was not playing at the level we knew he could play"</span></span> amounts to the full story? From a coach renowned for his meticulous approach? Is it not possible that there is a lot more to this than meets the eye? Is it not possibe that Rafa, sensibly enough, chooses to draw a line under it (when asked a direct question on the subject) rather than give chapter and verse on what was, whichever way you look at it, a murky episode?
ReplyDeleteNeat bit of self-promoton though Jamie. You should be in PR...
yet another person who simply refuses to acknowledge that it is very difficult to get any ryhthm going or build a rapport with team-mates when you are constantly subbed. it was clear Benitez had no faith in Keane; even when he scored goals he would be dropped/subbed the next game. How is someone supposed to flourish in those conditions?
ReplyDeleteBut still keep denying the obvious if you must.
And here we are again: yet another person who fails to acknowledge the destructive impact of playing for a manager who shows no faith in you and constantly subs you off. Keane was subbed or on the bench in 82% of games! How do you justify this? in his first two games ever for Liverpool he was subbed off! Great way to start your LFC career
ReplyDeleteI think Bazza has hit the nail on the head....if you are going to compare keane, then you need to compare him to Gerrard or Torres as those are the positions he plays in.
ReplyDeletePlease stop this Rafa-bashing of yours...its actually becoming very tedious now.
Keane had so many air-shots it was hilarious. He wasn't able to fit in with basic tactical training at Melwood either, just have a look at Tomkins article where he mentions that he did not follow instructions and had little tactical awareness.
ReplyDeleteRobbie Keane was just not good enough.
Keane had so many air-shots it was hilarious. He wasn't able to fit in with basic tactical training at Melwood either, just have a look at Tomkins article where he mentions that he did not follow instructions and had little tactical awareness.
ReplyDeleteRobbie Keane was just not good enough.
Why bring Kuyt into this as well? Do you just live for continuous criticism, man, you're a odious fan.
"how's he supposed to settle in, gain an understanding???" you do realise, they train nearly every day, which involves training matches, it doesn't take long to gain an understanding or settle in to a new group of people.
ReplyDeleteYou can prove anything you want when you only compate assists and goals. Assists don't include key passes (i.e. those involved in the build up of the goal and not just the final lay off) and goals doesn't state the ammount of chances taken. Keane had plenty of sitters which he missed because he's single footed and went for the ball with his right instead of his left - on the ammount of money they're earning these players should be able to determine which foot would be best and use it.
Keane was played as a forward, not out on the wing. He drifts and drops, which you can see he does for Spurs also. Obviously not what Rafa wanted him to do. It's been shown before if a player doesn't follow his instructions he'll get rid of them (that can be blamed on Rafa) how well Keane played was down to Keane, i could understand if he only ever played 45 minutes of each game but as you say with an averave of over an hour on the pitch, that's more than enough time to prove his ability.
Didn't our goals to game ratio as a whole improve when Keane left? Stats can be manipulated all you want, Keane's individual stats may have been impressive, but if you look at the team stats as a whole since he left, you will find that we improved as a whole. But I forgot Jaimie that you see the players day in and day out, and know what is best for the team. Hell, we should make you the manager. Funny how Paul Tompkins can convincingly send his argument across and turn the head of even the most ardent of Liverpool fan, yet I have not once seen you pose a strong argument. The difference between a high class journalist and an also ran.
ReplyDeleteYNWA
You miss my point Jaimie, can you substantiate your statement that it is a myth perpetuated by the Benitez fan club??
ReplyDeleteDo you evidence to counter this? Just interested to ensure balance?? as are you I'm sure?
Ah, yes. Obviously a fair comparison looking 9 games played by Ngog over a period of a couple of months and 28 appearances by Keane over 6 months. Yes, very fair and very credible.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Jamie....looks like you lost this debate
ReplyDelete1-0 to the people that actually make sense
Its obvious. You have never seen or played a football match.
ReplyDeleteThe fact it is a myth is my opinion? What exactly is your point? Did I state it was a fact? No. I could trawl liverpool forums compiling evidence of people who perpetuated this myth but I can't be bothered.
ReplyDeleteMyth = a story accepted as history.
There is no evidence whatsoever in the public domain to suggest that Parry bought Keane. if there is, show it to me. There is, however, copious amounts of evidence suggesting that Rafa wanted Keane prior to the signing, and was happy to have brought him to the club.
We can only go on what is in the public domain, and I explained my reasoning in me post on the issue (link at the bottom of the article)
Thus, in the absence of ANY evidence whatsoever, people going around saying that Keane was signed by Parry are just making it up, hence it is a myth because it is a false story that has become fact for some fans.
Gerrard? Oh, I see - Gerrard was treated the same way as Keane, wasn't he? Gerrard was subbed in 82% of games and dropped every time he scored.
ReplyDelete<span>I watched every game last season and i was never impressed with Keane even though at the time of purchases I thought he would be a good buy (not at 20M though) He didn't fit anywhere, and Gerrard, Torres, Reira/Benny and Kuyt always looked more dangerous without Keane running around. I'm not sure what Jaime is saying that we should have done dropped Gerrard back with Xabi and played an ineffective Torres/Keane partnership so Keane wouldn't be hurt? Anyways im sure if Masch was left out of the starting 11 instead Keane Jaime would have written many articles about how "Rafa ruined the best DM career to play an ineffective Keane". I also would like to see the stats showing the how well Torres and Gerrard played together compared with Torres/Keane. </span>
ReplyDeleteInteresting edit of my comment Jamie. I wonder why "Neat bit of self-promotion though Jamie. You should be in PR..." was deemed worthy of the 'editor's' red pen?
ReplyDeleteBit too close to the truth for comfort?
interested to see te copious evidence that Rafa wanted to buy Keane please?
ReplyDeleteThe signing of Robbie Keane was welcomed by me and a great many reds all over the world but what was obvious from the start and you only have to watch videos of his performance for the REds he needed to much space and playing for the reds you do not get space within 30 yards of goal, he didnt have the abilty to create space like the player in your comparision Dirk Kuyt who also has [layed in numerous positions just like SG bennyonion, the difference is that these players proved the could step their game up a notch very sadly for Robbie and the Reds Robbie Keane could not.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said about 5 times now - at the bottom of the above article there is link to a post of mine that outlines the evidence.
ReplyDeletei disagree it is mostly down to rafa, robbie keane missed absolute sitters from six yards on a regular basis, ran around around like a headless chicken for the most part and threw his hand in the air when substituted, ive said this for years, where ryan babel, peter crouch and others have been concerened, these guys are in the football world and they know how certain managers work, rafa rotates a lot irrespective of form and always has, rafa doesnt put his arm around players or pats them on the back, surely players knew this before they signed for liverpool, if they knew the situation then and they knew they wouldnt like it, why sign in the first place?
ReplyDeletethanks, will read that later!!
ReplyDeleteGetting in the groove must be much easier with the crowd willing you to succeed must be a lot easier than the abuse constantly aimed at lucas the difference is Lucas has got worked hard at improving his game Robbie Keane could not do it
ReplyDeleteFair enough, lets compare Keane's first 9 games then:
ReplyDeleteAppearances: 9
Starts: 9
Total minutes: 493
Average mins on Pitch: 55
Goals: 0
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0
Minutes per goal: N/A
Please also bare in mind that in those first 9 games he was on the pitch for over 70 minutes in 6 of those games.
Is that fairer for you Jaimie?
Baffling that abusive comments remain whilst "Neat bit of self-promotion though Jamie. You should work in PR..." has been removed twice now. I wonder why.
ReplyDeleteNot my point, but I can see you're on a mission with this one. Do you honestly think that if Keane was played week in and week out for the whole season that he would've done a better job there than Gerrard? Maybe that's why he was sold, as Rafa knew that he was not good enough to play in that position regularly, but too good / expensive to be an impact player coming off the bench.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think you'll find that Gerrard is often subbed by Rafa. The difference though is that usually he manages to get us into a winning position, whereas Keane consistently missed opportunities and worse, seemed to get in both Gerrard's and Torres's way, thus proving a hindrance.
If you don't believe me, then watch a rerun of the games he played.
Now maybe he would've got better if given more opportunities and support from Rafa. But sometimes transfers just don't work out, as someone above mentioned with the likes of Shevchenko and Crespo at Chelsea, Bergkamp at Inter, Veron at United, all of whom were undoubtedly world class players. I think you need to accept that Keane probably falls into this category.
Not my point, but I can see you're on a mission with this one. Do you honestly think that if Keane was played week in and week out for the whole season that he would've done a better job there than Gerrard? Maybe that's why he was sold, as Rafa knew that he was not good enough to play in that position regularly, but too good / expensive to be an impact player coming off the bench.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think you'll find that Gerrard is often subbed by Rafa. The difference though is that usually he manages to get us into a winning position, whereas Keane consistently missed opportunities and worse, seemed to get in both Gerrard's and Torres's way, thus proving a hindrance.
If you don't believe me, then watch a rerun of the games he played.
Now maybe he would've got better if given more opportunities and support from Rafa. But sometimes transfers just don't work out, as someone above mentioned with the likes of Shevchenko and Crespo at Chelsea, Bergkamp at Inter, Veron at United, all of whom were undoubtedly world class players. I think you need to accept that Keane probably falls into this category.
I agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last few comments. Robbie Keane just could not cut it at Liverpool. He was playing very poorly at the begining of last season and he could not work in the Liverpool system. In the games that Keane played for liverpool Steven Gerrard was brought back into the centre of midfield ( where of late he has been less influential then when he plays in the hole) next to either Alonso or Mascherano. As games went by and RK continued his dry patch RB realised that Keane was making the team less effective. All Liverpool supporters must admit that last season's line up of Alonso and Mascherano in Centre midfield with Gerrard and Torres in attack proved far superior to Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso in the centre with Keane and Torres in attack. Hence Keane began a few games on the wing so that the Gerrard/Torres partnership could be retained with Keane still in the squad. This almost 4-2-4 formation was not the best as Riera and later Benayoun proved better on the left hand side. Keane is a great player ( one of my favourites even from his days at Leeds and co)but could not work to the best of his potential and Rafael Benitez realised this. It was in the interest of both the Club and the player to part.
ReplyDeleteHaha sorry about that, Computer went haywire... :)
ReplyDeleteN'gog scored 1 goal in his first 9 appearances. Keane provided 1 assist in his first 9. Again. I ask: what is your point?
ReplyDeleteGuest - read the comment policy. Snide comments will be deleted/edited out. If you keep posting the same thing over and over that is spamming the thread, and I will just ban you.
ReplyDeleteStick to the issues.
Read the articl but I don't understand y ur using Kyut for the comparison. Clearly they play different roles on the team. Kyut plays primarily on the right while Keane plays mostly in the middle of the park, simailar to Gerrard. Shouldn't we be comparing "apples" to "apples"?
ReplyDeleteOK, I made my point anyway.
ReplyDeleteThat aside, your article is based on taking Rafa's comments at face value - specifically (and I'm paraphrasing here) that Keane was sold because he was not playing well. You then attempt to prove that Keane wasn't playing well because of Rafa. There may, of course, be a grain of truth in that.
However, it's irrelevant, because I doubt anyone believes that Keane was sold purely because he 'wasn't playing well'.
I'm using it as a comparison to illustrate how benitez had total faith in Kuyt and none in Keane, as evidenced by the fact he started 48 games last season. And despite this, Keane has a better goals/assists ratio per minute.
ReplyDeleteIf he can achieve that when he's messaed about so much, imagine what he could've achieved if Benitez had shown faith in him like he did/does Kuyt.
My point is Ngog has provided MUCH better value for money and is statistically had a better Liverpool career thus far than Keane had, you're trying to avoid admitting it so I'll prove it:
ReplyDeleteNgog's first 9 appearances:
Starts: 2
Total minutes: 407
Average minutes on Pitch: 45
Goals: 1
Assists: 0
Goals per game: 0.11
Minutes per goal: 407
The difference is Ngog was 19, had played very few games for PSG on his arrival at Anfield and still managed to notch as opposed to a £20m vastly experienced 28 year old striker. And now? Well...
Ngog:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 9
Minutes on pitch: 970
Average minutes on pitch: 35
Goals: 7
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.25
Minutes per Goal: 139
Cost: £1.5m
Whatever way you cut it, Ngog has been a more prolific striker for us, now if Keane failing at Liverpool is Rafa's fault why is a 20 year old kid flourishing? Is it all down to Rafa or is it because Ngog has simply handled the move much better and listened when he was told what to do.
My point is Ngog has provided MUCH better value for money and is statistically had a better Liverpool career thus far than Keane had, you're trying to avoid admitting it so I'll prove it:
ReplyDeleteNgog's first 9 appearances:
Starts: 2
Total minutes: 407
Average minutes on Pitch: 45
Goals: 1
Assists: 0
Goals per game: 0.11
Minutes per goal: 407
The difference is Ngog was 19, had played very few games for PSG on his arrival at Anfield and still managed to notch as opposed to a £20m vastly experienced 28 year old striker. And now? Well...
Ngog:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 9
Minutes on pitch: 970
Average minutes on pitch: 35
Goals: 7
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.25
Minutes per Goal: 139
Cost: £1.5m
Whatever way you cut it, Ngog has been a more prolific striker for us, now if Keane failing at Liverpool is Rafa's fault why is a 20 year old kid flourishing? Is it all down to Rafa or is it because Ngog has simply handled the move much better and listened when he was told what to do.
My point is Ngog has provided MUCH better value for money and is statistically had a better Liverpool career thus far than Keane had, you're trying to avoid admitting it so I'll prove it:
ReplyDeleteNgog's first 9 appearances:
Starts: 2
Total minutes: 407
Average minutes on Pitch: 45
Goals: 1
Assists: 0
Goals per game: 0.11
Minutes per goal: 407
The difference is Ngog was 19, had played very few games for PSG on his arrival at Anfield and still managed to notch as opposed to a £20m vastly experienced 28 year old striker. And now? Well...
Ngog:
Appearances: 28
Starts: 9
Minutes on pitch: 970
Average minutes on pitch: 35
Goals: 7
Assists: 1
Goals per game: 0.25
Minutes per Goal: 139
Cost: £1.5m
Whatever way you cut it, Ngog has been a more prolific striker for us, now if Keane failing at Liverpool is Rafa's fault why is a 20 year old kid flourishing? Is it all down to Rafa or is it because Ngog has simply handled the move much better and listened when he was told what to do.
Kuyt is played predominantly on the wing, Keane was played up front.
ReplyDeleteRafa wanted Keane but he wanted Keane with Barry as that would have changed the shape of the team. The Gerrard comparison is fair and the fact is that he moved the player on, the player who showed open dissent at being substituted in addition to missing a glut of gilt edged chances. It didn't work out and no matter how long and hard you try to dress up stats to argue your case, it doesn't change the fact that the player wasn't good enough.
Besides, stats can be manipulated. For example, N'Gog has a better goal/start ratio than Keane. Does this not prove he is a better player or do you wish to change tack again to suit your biased agenda?
I very much doubt you have ever been to Anfield or appreciate anything about football beyond your limited writing ability.
Jaimie it was Keane's fault he failed not Benitez' and I think I've proved it by comparing Keane to Ngog after 28 appearances, Keane had managed 6 goals in nearly 2000 minutes of football, Ngog has scored 7 in less than half that time resulting in a goals per minute ratio of 1/139 compared to Keane's 1/322.
ReplyDeleteIf it was "rafa's fault" that Keane struggled because he was subed or dropped and HE couldn't hack it why has Ngog blown his statistics out of the water playing FAR LESS minutes over his 28 appearances?
Boo-hoo, Keane couldn't handle being dropped or subbed...tough. If he hasn't got the mental strength to deal with it move on, which he did.
I think you want it to be Rafa's fault because you've an agenda against him but as I've shown, it simply is not.
The point you're missing is that N'Gog is not operating in an oppressive environment whereby the manager regularly displays a complete lack of faith in him.
ReplyDeleteHe is not subbed all the time.
There is no pressure on him - all he has to do is come on in the 80th minute and try and score.
N'gog is also played in his natural position, i.e. out and out striker.
Keane was played on the left wing, in the hole, as a lone striker but very rarely in his natural postion/formation i.e 442 with two strikers.
Ngog does not have the added pressure of a 2om price tag, which combined with complete lack of faith show by Benitez, would cause any player to struggle (IMO).
The reason I provided a comparison to Dirk Kuyt is to illustrate how Benitez showed complete faith in Kuyt. Even when he went on a run of scoring 2 goals in 21 games (much worse than any run Keane put together), Benitez still started him every game.
Having the manager's faith is a huge thing - you can see this also in how Babel and Lucas perform. Lucas has the manager's utmost confidence; Babel does not, hence Lucas performs better and Babel is dropped 10 times after scoring goals in his first season.
Using Ngog as a comparison with your reasoning is not credible for all the reasons I've outlined above.
Let's see how Ngog performs when he's sub bed in 82% of games, dropped every time he scores and is never given the chance to develop an on-field rapport with his team-mates.
Guest - I've deleted your comment because it contravened the comment policy. If you can't state your argument without resorting cheap personal insults then your comments will continue to be deleted.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome to repost your comment without the insults.
I think whe comparing stats they must be compared in the right way, I think the examples above making comparisons with Ngog are fairer than comparing with Kuyt.
ReplyDeleteKeane did miss some blatant sitters and airkicked a few times, does a manager leave the player on although they are struggling or take the player off to save the fans & press getting on his back thus totally destroying his confidence?
Benitez will all his years of experience in management opted to take him off, he's the boss, he makes the decisions and you have to overcome and adapt not sulk, I think Keane was a sulker.
Jaimie the "spamming" was done because the comment failed at least 5 times before I reloaded the website and thus it was an accident. Your logic does not make sense. At the time Rafa was trying to tap into Keane's potential and Benitez spoke highly of him towards the media. Rafa protected Keanes drought, but he began to realise that faith in the player was costing the team 100% effieciency. True Keane was sold at his prime Liverpool era, but when the situation is analysed it is clear that Liverpool was better off without him. True Liverpool needs somebody good enough to fill in for Torres when El Nino is injured, but i am pretty sure (due to his displays) that Keane was not that man. Therefore Keane was a pawn in a trial and error system. We are still waiting for the ideal replacement
ReplyDeleteI've responded to your post above and outlined why your argument is not credible. Ngog-Keane is obviously not a fair comparison for the reasons I've outlined above.
ReplyDeleteWade - that comment was not directed at you.
ReplyDeleteI started the post 'Guest', which means I was referring to someone with the username 'Guest'. If I was addressing you I'd use your name ;-)
Robbie's spell at Liverpool just didn't work, whether he was trying to hard or maybe he had just lost half a yard of pace. In his 28apps he only scored two important goals v Arsenal and v A.Madrid the others coming in easy wins. Robbie missed a lot of chances in his spell at the club and also prevented Rieara from making it 2-0 v Spurs with a unfortunate block! He did the same to Torres at Man City but thankfully that time the ball fell kindly to Kuyt who scored. All in all it just didn't happen for the boy.
ReplyDeleteNow to blame Rafa for Keane's form is ridiculous. A player has to take responsibility for his own form, if a player doesn't play well he has a decent chance to be substituted. A striker or a winger are the most likely players to be subbed (torres) because (a) another striker/winger comes on to change the game because we are losing or (b) a more defensive player comes on because we are winning and we need to hold on to the result. Robbie's reaction to be taken off has never changed he has always sulked and probably always will. Robbie will be 30 at the end of this season and i think Rafa felt it was a good time to sell him and recoup 16m of the 19m Liverpool had paid for him. Little was Rafa to know the american owners were not to allow him to spend that money and even worse the next transfer window deprive him of any net transfer budget.
I think Mr Kanwar your articles and comments should be directed a bit more at the owners and how we can apply pressure on the despicable duo. They are bleeding the club dry and wasting the talents of Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, Mascherano, Carragher, Agger, Johnson and Reina.
These are becoming wasted years if we dont have proper investment soon. Remember Carragher probably only has 2 more years at the top? Benayoun 3? Gerrard 4? Torres? We cannot afford to continue the way we are. Spurs, A.Villa, Man City and Sunderland are investing in a big way and challenging us for 4th. And we are gradually falling away from the other three. Come on Mr Kanwar do the right thing i know you probably wont receive so many hits but whats more important Liverpool FC or extra hits on your site.
The bottom line is that they play 2 different positions and have 2 different roles. The reason Kyut is selected has less to do with goals, assists etc and more to do with him doing what the manager is asking him to do on the field of play.
ReplyDeleteWhen ppl talk go on and on about the stats thing its examples like these they're talking about. U take 2 players who play different positions and try to use stats to show that Benitez had more faith in one than the other.Using stats is fine but compare like for like and then make ur point. it might not be what u think Kyut should be doing but he's smart enough to know that if he wants to play he has to follow the manager's instructions.
Bottom line was Keane wasn't doing what the manager asked of him. That is what u call mis-management?
<span>So what is your point that Rafa should have played Keane in Kuyts position? Sure you can argue that Rafa is being biased towards Kuyt as Benny has more influence in the team but what does that have to do with Keane? Keane could only replace two positions in the team, so either Torres needed to be benched so Keane and Gerrard could play together or Gerrard need to be pushed back dropping either Xabi or Masch so Torres and Keane could play together SO the logical thing to do here is to see who is more influential behind Torres, KEANE OR GERRARD and it was obvious that it was Gerrard. So why ruin the best med-field partnership in Xabi and Masch to make room for an ineffective Keane behind Torres? So this support you keep talking about that Kuyt is getting is irrelevant as your making an argument that Keane deserved a place in the starting 11, unless your really suggesting that Keane should have started in front of Kuyt on the right? Keane didn’t have the luxury of time on his side as the whole purpose of buying him was that he had premiership experience and would adapt quickly that’s why we paid over odds for him if that wasn’t the case why not buy a player from another league that was cheaper? <span> </span>I know you usually ignore solid arguments or delete them so im not expecting an answer </span>
ReplyDeleteNeil - please stop with the cliched owner stuff. 'Despicable owners' - gee, don't exaggerate or anything.
ReplyDeleteHow are they 'desspicable'?!
You are not in full possession of the facts re the owners and, clearly, your view has been moulded by anti-owners sites/organisations like SOS.
Why don't you do some independent research into the ownership situation and draw your own conclusions instead of parroting what other people say?
I have done that and it is clear that 95% of the stuff written about the owners is BS.
Liverpool fans are, unfortunately, xenophopbic on a grand scale, and this latent xenophobia (gleefully perpetuated by SOS) clouds the minds of fans.
So - please explain why they are despicable, and don't come up with generalisations - I want proveable facts as to why they deserve the label 'despicable'.
And re the site - there is no advertising on this site so what do I have to gain from extra 'hits'?!
Why do people continually raise such a silly argument? It's not about hits - if it was, this site would be crawling with advertising. It isn't.
Basically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a player's ego!
ReplyDeleteSo what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
Basically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a player's ego!
ReplyDeleteSo what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
Basically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a player's ego!
ReplyDeleteSo what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
As I have already explained about 5 times:
ReplyDelete* The Kuyt comparison is to illustrate how Benitez had unquestionable faith in Kuyt.
* Despite that faith, Keane had a better goals per minute ratio, despite starting half as many games and having 3000+ less minutes on the pitch.
* If benitez had show Keane the kind of faith he did Kuyt, then things would (arguably) have been very different.
You cannot underestimate the destructive impact of knowing your manager has no faith in you.
Look at Lucas and Babel for another example: Lucas has 100% confidence from Benitez, who regularly sings his praises in the press. Lucas gains confidence from this and as a result he plays better.
With Babel, Benitez displays a lack of faith in him; in the press, he regularly exhorts him to improve and be more consistent etc. At the same time, he never gives him a run of games and always subs him!
That is the difference: treat a player like crap and he will not produce. Have faith in him and he will produce.
My response is thus Jaimie...
ReplyDeleteBasically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a players ego!
So what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
My response is thus Jaimie...
ReplyDeleteBasically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a players ego!
So what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
My response is thus Jaimie...
ReplyDeleteBasically Jaimie you'll just dismiss any evidence to the contrary of what your opinion is. How much MORE faith did Keane need? He played 2000 minutes of football in 28 appearances and scored 6 goals! That is a terrible return, it's nothing to do with being subbed as fresh legs are sometimes required, and if you haven't put the ball in the back of the net after 70 minutes someone else deserves a try, afterall we need to win games not pander to a players ego!
So what you're saying is Rafa should have kept him on and carried on playing him in his prefered position as striker and left Torres out... OR changed his entire formation to suit Keane (4-4-2)?
As a VASTLY EXPERIENCED EPL STRIKER he should have been able to do his job when he was on the pitch and I don't know how many times you came to Anfield or got to an away game but Keane normally played as striker when Torres was out or as 2nd striker when Gerrard was out, he was hardly used on the left. Did you actually watch the games?
Using Ngog is completely logical, he's played the same games and performed better despite getting less minutes, being far younger, being less experienced and changing countries. He's started matches and then been dropped for the next game, why didn't his head go down?
Keane SHOULD have done better, he's got YEARS of experience in the EPL but failed to live up to expectations, it happens, but it was his fault not Rafa's.
Basically you're using Keane as a means to attack Benitez which given some previous articles is hardly surprising.
in way I agree with you, because If you analyse Robbie Keanes best performances for us last season they came at a time when Rafa was in his hospital bed. From what I remember he played with a lot of freedom when rafa was away having his kidney stones dealt with but that freedom turned to trepidation the minute the gafa returned. This to me showed that Keane didn't feel completely comfortable being in the presence of Benitez but then it is obstacles like this that seperate the men from the boys. Keano wasn't mentally tough enough.
ReplyDelete"You cannot underestimate the destructive impact of knowing your manager has no faith in you."
ReplyDeleteJaimie you do not know this to be true and I seem to recall Benitez defending Keane time and time again especially after Fergie's "surprised we paid £20m" rant.
The truth is you don't like Rafa and will use ANY opportunity to try and discredit him.
A manager's patience will run out some time, Keane was given AMPLE opportunity to prove himself and he failed. Would you prefer that Rafa kept playing Keane despite him not performing when a replacement on the pitch could have provided improvement? Of course not, you'd be mad to think so, especially considering you'd have probably slated Rafa for sticking with Keane when he wasn't performing!
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
<span>Did you even read what i wrote? </span>
ReplyDelete<span> </span>
<span>So what i bet Keane had a better "better goals per minute ratio" then Arbola but Arbola played as a defender and Keane played as a striker. Same with Kuyt and Keane, Kuyt could play as a winger and Keane can't so what your saying is that Keane as STRIKER scored more then kuyt as a WINGER.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>Please re-read my post and give me a decent answer instead of ignoring my post and writing about things that have nothing to do with my post. I see you ignored the fact that Keane could only have played on two positions forcing Torres, Gerrad, Masch or Xabi having to be benched so please explain who you would have benched to give Keane the support he needed</span>
<span> </span>
<span>And please again why ignore my post of paying over the odds for a player with premiership experience so you don't have to wait for him to settle in?</span>
Haha my bad Jaimie. About your above comment it is simply you reap what you sow. Benitez sees what happens behind the scenes and at training and thus has more insight into the Lucas paradigm. Lucas was bought for the future and Benitez is apparently happy that his improvement is at his expected rate. Babel had a higher price tag, ego and expectation then Lucas. Babel started off brightly, but his sometime sublime play became stifled by the inclusion of immediate competition in the form of Riera. When the more experienced Riera became Rafa's number 1 he could not handle the pressure of the fight. He fluffed his chances and instead of playing his natural way he became a selfish player. How many times does Babel recieve the ball only to lose it again. He's over eagerness to impress causes him to take not even half chances at goal while there were obvious passes or possible assists to be made. Benitez sees this waste of potential and hopes that Babel will become the player he was destined to be.
ReplyDeleteHaha my bad Jaimie. About your above comment it is simply you reap what you sow. Benitez sees what happens behind the scenes and at training and thus has more insight into the Lucas paradigm. Lucas was bought for the future and Benitez is apparently happy that his improvement is at his expected rate. Babel had a higher price tag, ego and expectation then Lucas. Babel started off brightly, but his sometime sublime play became stifled by the inclusion of immediate competition in the form of Riera. When the more experienced Riera became Rafa's number 1 he could not handle the pressure of the fight. He fluffed his chances and instead of playing his natural way he became a selfish player. How many times does Babel recieve the ball only to lose it again. He's over eagerness to impress causes him to take not even half chances at goal while there were obvious passes or possible assists to be made. Benitez sees this waste of potential and hopes that Babel will become the player he was destined to be.
ReplyDeleteHaha my bad Jaimie. About your above comment it is simply you reap what you sow. Benitez sees what happens behind the scenes and at training and thus has more insight into the Lucas paradigm. Lucas was bought for the future and Benitez is apparently happy that his improvement is at his expected rate. Babel had a higher price tag, ego and expectation then Lucas. Babel started off brightly, but his sometime sublime play became stifled by the inclusion of immediate competition in the form of Riera. When the more experienced Riera became Rafa's number 1 he could not handle the pressure of the fight. He fluffed his chances and instead of playing his natural way he became a selfish player. How many times does Babel recieve the ball only to lose it again. He's over eagerness to impress causes him to take not even half chances at goal while there were obvious passes or possible assists to be made. Benitez sees this waste of potential and hopes that Babel will become the player he was destined to be.
ReplyDeletewell said...Thrice :-D
ReplyDeleteOMF this computer is annoying me. Sorry for the reposts
ReplyDeleteHere's a stat i'd like to know Jamie. How many people agree with you here? Seems to me 95 percent of the fans on here seem to be level headed people. I was a massive Keane fan and wanted him at the club 7-8 years ago and had to admit that it wasn't working. I actually think benitez did well getting rid for the money we got back. Considering all the other 20 mil players Rafa has signed Masch,Torres, Johnson,et al.All are considered maybe the best in europe and i happen to agree. By the way it's kind of insulting to call a fan who is willing to give the manager time as a "rafa apologist" especially one who goes and watches the team home and away through thick and thin and this doesn't make me blind either just a proper supporter!
ReplyDeleteHere's a stat i'd like to know Jamie. How many people agree with you here? Seems to me 95 percent of the fans on here seem to be level headed people. I was a massive Keane fan and wanted him at the club 7-8 years ago and had to admit that it wasn't working. I actually think benitez did well getting rid for the money we got back. Considering all the other 20 mil players Rafa has signed Masch,Torres, Johnson,et al.All are considered maybe the best in europe and i happen to agree. By the way it's kind of insulting to call a fan who is willing to give the manager time as a "rafa apologist" especially one who goes and watches the team home and away through thick and thin and this doesn't make me blind either just a proper supporter!
ReplyDelete<span>Agree with you 100%. Jaimie likes to accuse Rafa as being hard headed and stuck in way or but the truth is Jaimie is the worst culprit of those things, in fact if you follow his writing and read his replay he will never say "good point i never looked at that way" or "you know what, i was wrong" he will just ignore you.</span>
ReplyDelete<span> </span>
<span>And Jaimie since you like stats so much you'll like this. I bet 90% of Liverpool fans don't want you to support OUR club so please go away and stop writing abut us</span>
Sorry mate. Keane failed. I like the guy but he really struggled to make an impression. Alot of Irish fans are not happy with keanes minutes on the pitch but if u analyse his performances being 20 mins or 80 mins it was basically not good enough for a twenty mil player.
ReplyDeleteJaimie will just continually ignore the facts of the matter.
ReplyDeleteKeane failed, end of. He had plenty of opportunities to prove himself, he played nearly 2000 minutes of football or 23 FULL matches and managed just 6 goals.
Apparently Ngog is an unfair comparison as Keane had the pressure of costing the Club £20m, if he couldn't handle it why move to us in the 1st place?
He was also not favoured by Benitez apparently, despite Jaimie reminding us time and time again that Keane WAS a Rafa purchase and despite giving him 28 appearances and 23 starts, Jaimie would have us believe Rafa didn't think that much of him, funny how he defended Keane time and time again to the press?
Ngog only had the pressures of being 19 years old, moving to a new country, learning a new language, not knowing anybody, not having played in the EPL before...
But alas those pale in comparison to the pressures faced by a seasoned professional International and vastly experienced EPL striker. Poor old Keane!
So I suppose Jaimie is right, it's unfair of us to expect Keane (a 28 year old, £20m, Irish International, prolific, 6 year veteran of the EPL) to outperform a £1.5m youth signing from France who's barely played any top flight football!
I mean really Jaimie, do you listen to yourself sometimes?
Jaimie will just continually ignore the facts of the matter.
ReplyDeleteKeane failed, end of. He had plenty of opportunities to prove himself, he played nearly 2000 minutes of football or 23 FULL matches and managed just 6 goals.
Apparently Ngog is an unfair comparison as Keane had the pressure of costing the Club £20m, if he couldn't handle it why move to us in the 1st place?
He was also not favoured by Benitez apparently, despite Jaimie reminding us time and time again that Keane WAS a Rafa purchase and despite giving him 28 appearances and 23 starts, Jaimie would have us believe Rafa didn't think that much of him, funny how he defended Keane time and time again to the press?
Ngog only had the pressures of being 19 years old, moving to a new country, learning a new language, not knowing anybody, not having played in the EPL before...
But alas those pale in comparison to the pressures faced by a seasoned professional International and vastly experienced EPL striker. Poor old Keane!
So I suppose Jaimie is right, it's unfair of us to expect Keane (a 28 year old, £20m, Irish International, prolific, 6 year veteran of the EPL) to outperform a £1.5m youth signing from France who's barely played any top flight football!
I mean really Jaimie, do you listen to yourself sometimes?
Jaimie will just continually ignore the facts of the matter.
ReplyDeleteKeane failed, end of. He had plenty of opportunities to prove himself, he played nearly 2000 minutes of football or 23 FULL matches and managed just 6 goals.
Apparently Ngog is an unfair comparison as Keane had the pressure of costing the Club £20m, if he couldn't handle it why move to us in the 1st place?
He was also not favoured by Benitez apparently, despite Jaimie reminding us time and time again that Keane WAS a Rafa purchase and despite giving him 28 appearances and 23 starts, Jaimie would have us believe Rafa didn't think that much of him, funny how he defended Keane time and time again to the press?
Ngog only had the pressures of being 19 years old, moving to a new country, learning a new language, not knowing anybody, not having played in the EPL before...
But alas those pale in comparison to the pressures faced by a seasoned professional International and vastly experienced EPL striker. Poor old Keane!
So I suppose Jaimie is right, it's unfair of us to expect Keane (a 28 year old, £20m, Irish International, prolific, 6 year veteran of the EPL) to outperform a £1.5m youth signing from France who's barely played any top flight football!
I mean really Jaimie, do you listen to yourself sometimes?
You do seem to focus on the negative aspects of the club a lot on this blog.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you about Keane and Ryan Babel is also being treated the same way and his man management skills are not the best.
I do wonder what would have happened if Keane and also Babel were given the same backing and run in the team that Lucas has been given.
Lucas has definitely improved because he's a regular starter and knows he'll keep getting chances so isn't under a lot of pressure like Babel and Keane was.
I also agree that Benitez has to take some blame as managers are supposed to deflect criticism from their players.
But if Benitez left he would win trophies with another team so he must be backed to allow him to be successful again otherwise our loss will be another clubs gain.
QUOTE TAKEN FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY JAIMIE KANWAAR IN AUGUST 2008 FOLLOWING THE DRAW AGAINST STANDARD LIEGE (ON KEANE'S PERFORMANCE IN THE MATCH HE SCORED KEANE 4/10):
ReplyDelete"How did he miss *that* chance?! The opportunity was signed, sealed and delivered but he somehow conspired to 'do a Kuyt' and completely misjudge it."
"Another poor game from Keane but I expected it. I said it at the time and I’ll say it again: 20m for Keane is 20m wasted. I sincerely doubt he will get more than 10 goals this season and at some stage the inevitable will happen and he will be shunted out to the right just like Dirk Kuyt."
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/08/liverpool-v-standard-liege-team-ratings.html#ixzz0X9IEjvPc</span>
You seem to have changed your tune somewhat Jaimie? Here you berate Keane and his pricetag but now you're defending Keane and critising Rafa for not giving him more time!
You change your mind like the weather according to whatever you think will generate more comments to your articles and this proves it.
QUOTE TAKEN FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY JAIMIE KANWAAR IN AUGUST 2008 FOLLOWING THE DRAW AGAINST STANDARD LIEGE (ON KEANE'S PERFORMANCE IN THE MATCH HE SCORED KEANE 4/10):
ReplyDelete"How did he miss *that* chance?! The opportunity was signed, sealed and delivered but he somehow conspired to 'do a Kuyt' and completely misjudge it."
"Another poor game from Keane but I expected it. I said it at the time and I’ll say it again: 20m for Keane is 20m wasted. I sincerely doubt he will get more than 10 goals this season and at some stage the inevitable will happen and he will be shunted out to the right just like Dirk Kuyt."
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/08/liverpool-v-standard-liege-team-ratings.html#ixzz0X9IEjvPc</span>
You seem to have changed your tune somewhat Jaimie? Here you berate Keane and his pricetag but now you're defending Keane and critising Rafa for not giving him more time!
You change your mind like the weather according to whatever you think will generate more comments to your articles and this proves it.
Another quote from the same article:
ReplyDelete"I don’t rate Babel at all and for me the 11m spent on him was a complete waste of money. He is Emile Heskey with slightly more skill but the same self-confidence problem."
"Like Kuyt, Alonso and Benayoun, Babel is another player on the road to being ruined by Rafa."
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/08/liverpool-v-standard-liege-team-ratings.html#ixzz0X9K5yhRl</span>
PRICELESS.
Written in August 2008 by Jaimie Kanwaar - Dirk Kuyt went on to be the best performing Right Winger in the EPL for the 2008-09 season (but Rafa had ruined him), Alonso had probably his best season in a Liverpool shirt in the same season (but Rafa ruined him, thank god he managed to sell the "ruined" Alonso for £30m!), and Benayoun the ruined winger has had his best spell for Liverpool thus far hitting 4 goals and getting 4 assists in 14 appearances this season, following from last season when he scored 11 goals and managed 6 assists in 35 appearance.
One minute Babel is rubbish and a waste of 11m and the next minute Rafa has ruined his career, make up your mind Jaimie!
Another quote from the same article:
ReplyDelete"I don’t rate Babel at all and for me the 11m spent on him was a complete waste of money. He is Emile Heskey with slightly more skill but the same self-confidence problem."
"Like Kuyt, Alonso and Benayoun, Babel is another player on the road to being ruined by Rafa."
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/08/liverpool-v-standard-liege-team-ratings.html#ixzz0X9K5yhRl</span>
PRICELESS.
Written in August 2008 by Jaimie Kanwaar - Dirk Kuyt went on to be the best performing Right Winger in the EPL for the 2008-09 season (but Rafa had ruined him), Alonso had probably his best season in a Liverpool shirt in the same season (but Rafa ruined him, thank god he managed to sell the "ruined" Alonso for £30m!), and Benayoun the ruined winger has had his best spell for Liverpool thus far hitting 4 goals and getting 4 assists in 14 appearances this season, following from last season when he scored 11 goals and managed 6 assists in 35 appearance.
One minute Babel is rubbish and a waste of 11m and the next minute Rafa has ruined his career, make up your mind Jaimie!
Another quote from the same article:
ReplyDelete"I don’t rate Babel at all and for me the 11m spent on him was a complete waste of money. He is Emile Heskey with slightly more skill but the same self-confidence problem."
"Like Kuyt, Alonso and Benayoun, Babel is another player on the road to being ruined by Rafa."
Read more: <span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/08/liverpool-v-standard-liege-team-ratings.html#ixzz0X9K5yhRl</span>
PRICELESS.
Written in August 2008 by Jaimie Kanwaar - Dirk Kuyt went on to be the best performing Right Winger in the EPL for the 2008-09 season (but Rafa had ruined him), Alonso had probably his best season in a Liverpool shirt in the same season (but Rafa ruined him, thank god he managed to sell the "ruined" Alonso for £30m!), and Benayoun the ruined winger has had his best spell for Liverpool thus far hitting 4 goals and getting 4 assists in 14 appearances this season, following from last season when he scored 11 goals and managed 6 assists in 35 appearance.
One minute Babel is rubbish and a waste of 11m and the next minute Rafa has ruined his career, make up your mind Jaimie!
It's simply incredible that many Kopites claim the failure for a player like Keane sold on january transfer market just after three months.
ReplyDeleteEvery player needs to play a whole campaign for proving his value: this is justice, this is reasonable, this is simply true.
Using the word "failure" for RObbie Keane is very, very cruel.
We are Liverpool FC: a great, fantastic club firmly behind the players and Anfield is the Temple of Football where nobody can't use the word failure for a player like Keane, reds through and through, who have played just three months for our fantastic Club.
Failure? Sorry mates, but this is not the LIVERPOOL WAY.
You have all to remember the LIVERPOOL WAY.
Benitez have been managing Liverpool form six years: after this period it's possible to discuss about the tactics and the transfer policy of a manager.
Benitez has had 6 years, Robbie Keane has had just three months: maybe You have to measure your words.
I respect with all of my hearth the Jaimie points of view and his perfect articole based only on facts: You'll never walk alone Jamie.
Jamie, You are a pride of Liverpool FC.
My brother is a Spurs season ticket holder and he was quite pleased when we offered £20M for Keane. Keane is not a big time player. He enjoys being a big fish in a small pond where there's no real pressure. He goes for long periods without scoring. Too much of a confidence player and you can't rely on them to win titles. He often scores in spurts. Decent player and I like him but Rafa sees him in training day in and day out and insiders have reported that even senior players were surprised at his lack of ability and erratic performances on the training pitch. Telling that none of the Liverpool player (even Gerrard who shares his agent) have come close to mentioning him as a factor. Keane thrives at 'promising clubs' like Tottenham or Leeds where winning isn't always as paramount but at bigger clubs like Liverpool or Inter Milan he tends to look lost and comes across as a try hard with little end result. Players who win things have supreme confidence and they prove it on the pitch. Drop Wayne Rooney for two games and watch what he does in the next one. Big game player. Enough self belief and confidence to prove it on the pitch without any hugs and kisses. It's telling that Keane has played under major trophy winners such as Trappatoni, Benitez and Lippi yet his favourite manager to play under was Gordon Strachan at Coventry. I can understand why Benitez signed him but as a 28 year old, with only a Carling Cup to his name and £20M with little resale value if it went wrong, it was a gamble too far and Rafa was right to admit his mistake and cut his losses. And it was Benitez's mistake alright. Parry messed up a lot of things but this was Benitez's lampshade.
ReplyDeleteDespicable is probably a bit harsh but to Liverpool fans this is the only way to describe our owners. They have put us 245m in the red originally 305m, this has to be paid for in interest, which comes from the club. That money should be going towards the transfer and wage budget not to the banks thats why in the majority of fans eyes (not just sos) the owners are despicable. Its simple mathematics work it out Mr Kanwar.
ReplyDeletewhy oh why does this site keep allowing so many defamatory blogs? From what I've seen, all you ever do is print negative comments about Rafa. TRUE Liverpool fans get behind their boss, players, especially during bad times.
ReplyDeleteShame on Liverpool Kop for writing such negative comments, and for having the gall to use the word KOP in it's title!
Rafa should stay at LFC forever! He's the best manager ever & nobody (Jamie, I am looking at you) should ever put him down, you're a disgrace for all LFC fans around the world
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to see where fans take their lead from in the blame culture that surrounds the club. Benitez himself.
ReplyDeleteThe man sickens me. I have lost all respect for him totally after the last year and his nauseating love ins with Evans and Tomkins make me ashamed to be a Liverpool fan. I want a manager with decency and honesty and instead we have a lying, manipulative, cunning chancer who deflects all blame onto others and uses his butt-licking journo's to support himself. He is shameful.
I want him out now. The club is being ruined by the manager's monstrous ego.
Kanwar,
ReplyDeleteDo you EVER write anything positive about LFC. I'm sure if we did win the league you'd find something derogatory to say about Rafa. (allow me to insert you're answer here....."We'll never win it with Rafa...blah,blah,blah")
I bet if you do go the games (and that's a big IF), you're so busy moaning about the game and rafa's poor tactics (no doubt taking down notes on your shiny BlackBerry) that you have to watch MoTD to see what you've missed.
Just give it a rest lad and keep taking your meds!
What a ridiculous article. You even use stats showing tht Kuyt, a wide midfielder, has a better scoring record than Keane, a striker, and state that somehow this backs up your claim. It doesn't! It's the reverse.
ReplyDeleteKeane had two decent games in a Liverpool shirt. Away at Everton and at home to West Brom, and even those games weren't exactly amazing. The reason he was subbed so often is because he was slow, weak, and unable to get involved in the game at all. Presumably you were one of those people complaining when he was left on the bench at St James Park? Andy Gray and Jamie Redknapp were slaughtering Benitez before kick off. I seem to remember we won the game 5-1 and it could easily have been 10. They were strangely quiet afterwards.
The reason he was sold, as if it wasn't obvious, was becasue Spurs offered to cut most of our losses. I'm sure other players could be sold if the money was offered. I haven't even mantioned the fact that after Keane was sold, our scoring rate as a team went through the roof.
lets forget about stats for the moment and look at benitez s man management skills
ReplyDeleteriise every time he played well he was dropped
keane was not given time to settle
crouch treated in the same way as riise
alonso was used as make way for barry and being told he could attend his childs birth was criminal
hyypia not given a 2 year so went on a free to make things worse benitez buys an aincent over the hill slow motion greek
mascherano will be the next to go because he to has been treated like dirt(but not like dirk)
this is all down to benitez s 100% lack of man management skills
while i am on about lack of skills is any one else puzzled about pelligrinos function at liverpool
this man was possibly the worst defender to wear the red shirt and since his appointment our defence has gone from bad to worse
is it him or his gesticulating clipboard
Desy: three months, only three months.
ReplyDeleteYou're claiming the failure of a player who have never had the time to demonstrate which is a player with skills and attitude to wear the LFC's crest. What kind of justiche is this? Which are your values?
And You make a wrong: Lippi loved Keane but Marcello Lippi resigned from Inter Milan after just three games on charge ( I'm italian).
I can't realize why it's impossible to debate about the position of a manager who's been in charge at Anfield for 6 years, but We have to consider a totally failure a player who played 28 games with LFC...
Sorry I respect your opinions but You do not represent in any way The Liverpool's spirit and the Liverpool's way.
I thonk this is the unofficial Talksport website!! designed to get a reaction.
ReplyDeleteSorry Rick but three months of substandard performances loses league titles. Fact. When you have little money to spend and you've shipped £20m of it on a 28/29 year old who is disappointing on the pitch and on the training ground you just have to cut your losses. Thee guys are highly paid MEN. They're not kids. He knew the pressure of the price tag and he just couldn't overcome it. In short he isn't that good. Ferguson knew that and said it at the time. Now Benitez knows it. We couldn't afford another Harry Kewell and Benitez acted accordingly. If The Liverpool Way means molly coddling rapidly devaluing players then no wonder we're broke with no titles in 20 years. It was Benitez' mistake and to his credit he took responsibility for it and rectified it.
ReplyDeletePs: I stated that in Keane's opinion Strachan was the best manager he played under. For a player who's played under Trappatoni, Benitez and I suppose Lippi, it shows that he's the kind of player that prefers an environment of confidence boosting as opposed to an envirinment of responsibility for success. That's the difference between the likes of Keane and Rooney. I've also not stated that Benitez isn't open for criticism (his squandering of youth players like Warnock, Hamill and possibly Pacheco in exchange for expensive [wages and/or transfer fees] flops like Dossena, Voronin, Lucas and Degen is an expensive and demoralising error). But I believe that the Keane Affair was one of Benitez' best moves. All parties seemed to have moved on and know when Keane misses a chance it isn't headline news.
ReplyDeletePps: let's not forget that Keane was regularly substituted by Martin Jol with little controversy. Obviously there is an issue with inconsistency with Keane as there always are with 'confidence' players. By the way, if your idea of The Liverpool Way is giving expensive players extended time to prove themselves on the pitch and at the training ground while league titles slip away, well I suppose Bill Shankly is turning in his grave.
Ps: I stated that in Keane's opinion Strachan was the best manager he played under. For a player who's played under Trappatoni, Benitez and I suppose Lippi, it shows that he's the kind of player that prefers an environment of confidence boosting as opposed to an envirinment of responsibility for success. That's the difference between the likes of Keane and Rooney. I've also not stated that Benitez isn't open for criticism (his squandering of youth players like Warnock, Hamill and possibly Pacheco in exchange for expensive [wages and/or transfer fees] flops like Dossena, Voronin, Lucas and Degen is an expensive and demoralising error). But I believe that the Keane Affair was one of Benitez' best moves. All parties seemed to have moved on and know when Keane misses a chance it isn't headline news.
ReplyDeletePps: let's not forget that Keane was regularly substituted by Martin Jol with little controversy. Obviously there is an issue with inconsistency with Keane as there always are with 'confidence' players. By the way, if your idea of The Liverpool Way is giving expensive players extended time to prove themselves on the pitch and at the training ground while league titles slip away, well I suppose Bill Shankly is turning in his grave.
Stop arguing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteKeane is a Rick Parry's player.... He is Not Rafael Benitez CHOICE...
That's it...
Just leave it to RAFA all the transfer dealing with monitoring from management...
Rafa need space for the seek of our beloved club..
In RAFA we trust!
Give him MONEY... He knows what his doing! Depends how much he got from the owner!
Nowadays, MONEY is important to SUCCESS!
That's funny. You prise Keane for his Tottenham contribution and claim he should have been started/play more.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time you want to drop Kuyt when his contribution to out team is much better (last prem 12 games: 3 goals and 3 assists)...
You are very inconsistent Jaimie :)
I just realised your stats are wrong
ReplyDelete<span><span>Minutes on pitch</span>: 4509
<span>Average minutes on pitch</span>: 89
<span>Starts</span>: 48 (51 appearances in total)
<span>Goals</span>: 14
<span>Assists</span>: 8</span>
According to official Premier League stats he has 9 assists and 12 goals in the league alone.
http://www.premierleague.com/page/Statistics/0,,12306,00.html
He scored 3 CL goals.
I couldnt find his CL/FA cup assists.
But even if he hasnt any you missed one goal and one assist.
Could you please provide the source you got your stats?
"By the way, if your idea of the Liverpool Way is giving players extended time to prove themselves on the pitch and at the training ground"
ReplyDeleteYes, I think so. "Extended time" is crucial for building a team and every actor on the ground needs the right time to find a good position on the pitch. "Time is the key" to find a way for keeping ball on the floor. I think so, and I firmly believe that Managers like Paisley, Fagan and also Roy Evans who built them glory by working with youngster & good players, and several outclass players, whould be ready to subscribe my point of view.
"While league titles slip away"
Desy, just give a watch to Liverpool's results with Keane, and without Keane. On December 31 of 2008/2009 league's campaign Liverpool are on top of the table...
And now?
Now, actually We're playing with Voronin....
Desy, just a last question.
According to reports, We don't have money for transfer funds..
Ok.
In a situation of a lack of money for transfers, How is crucial for the club to spend money in an appropriate way?
Benitez bought Keane for 20m. of pounds, for selling him just the dealine for 12 m, and after just three months..
Is it an appropriate way to spend money?
It seems a way to waste money....
The owners are liars ok ok, but manager remains always the main responsible of what happens on the pitch.
Perfect, perfect analysys of the Benitez's poor management skills Mako.
ReplyDeleteI agree.
And nowadays, It's simply incredible that We have a poor player like Kyrgiakos in the side, while The Bigg Finn is playing at Leverkusen.
Where are You Sammy? :( :(
Jamie, im gald you wrote an article about Keane because i have some views that i would like you to respond to.
ReplyDeleteFirts of all, Robbie Keane was my favourote player in the Prem (outside of Liverpool) prior to his arrival, and unsurprisingly i was delighted to have signed him. it hought it was a great signing at the time. Granted over-priced, but a Prem proven player and a £20m forward was the kind of addition we needed then (and now again really).
However, clearly this transfer did not work out. I strongly believe that the reaons for this are 3 fold, and are all equally to blame:
1 - Injuries: Whoever signed Keane, he was clearly bought to partner Torres and form a lethal partynership. However, During Keanee's time att he club, Torres was largerly injured/unfit. As a result, he rareley played in tandom witht eh Spaniard. Often he played in Torres' role as the lone striker with Gerrard behind (Chelsea (a)/ Arsenal (a) etc). I think this had a direct result on his performances and his contribution to the team.
2 - Keane's Performances: There is no doubt at all that Keane under-performed. he was desperate to do well and appeared nervous and anxious on a number of occasions. Clearly eager to impress, this impacted on his performances and he himself will be very disappointed with his contribution during the time he was at the club. Chances were squandered regularly and even his usually assured touch was not present on many ocasions.
3 - Rafa's management: I dont believe this is the sole reason for his failure, but clearly it attributed tot he problem. He was constantly substituted early which did not help confidence and the times in which we was left on the becnh was just baffling to say the least! I remember him scoring twice against Bolton and then being left on the bnch for 90 mins during our romp against Newcaste. Ok we won so cant complain too much, but justt hink of Keane had been given another start then you would have fancied him to score in that game wouldn't you! The game after was Preston i believe and that was a great opportunity to build some belated confidence/momentum. Ok maybe Rafa had decided at theat point he was going to leave, but i still believed att hat point he could be a success!
However, i am quite up to date with Spur's form as my flat-mate is Spurs fan and he has been largely disappointing since his return to White Hart Lane. Somthing has happened and he does looka shaddow of the player we signed! Maybe that ahppened at Liverpool, or maybe not. I cant sya for sure.
Moving away form the topic slightly, i am a Rafa supporter if you like but for me his biggest mistake has been not replacing a £20m striker in not 1, but 2 transfer windows! We we're fortunate att he abck end of last seaosn in a sense that Torres stayed relatively injury free,m because had he not have done, we would have struggled, much like we have this season! A new forward is a must!
Jamie, i would love to hear your thoughts on the points raised above?
Cheers
Mark
Many argued that Keane failed to perform in the 6 months he was with us, and thus deserved to be sold.
ReplyDeleteBut what about Crouch?
Does anyone remember how frustrating it was for everyone during the first few months after joining LFC? If memory serves me right, it took him 15 matches to score his first goal in a Liverpool jersey. But somehow, Rafa started him regularly. A good manager should not practices double standard when it comes to the players' performance.
Jamie, why do you say Liverpool-Kop is now the highest ranked, non-forum-based, independent LFC site on the net? What about the likes of Anfield Online and This Is Anfield? They may have forums, but they're not forum based by any means.
ReplyDeleteYou state: "In an interview with 'The Times' today, Rafa Benitez once again laid the blame for Robbie Keane's failure at Liverpool at the feet of the player himself"
ReplyDeleteSo you admit that Robbie Keane did fail... so the question is whose fault is it? Well if you ask me a man is primarily responsible for his own fortunes, granted there are external factors that may come into play but keane is man who gets paid an extrordinary amount of money doing what I assume he loves - it was a huge move for him. If the gaffer wasn't keen on him then Keane wasnt doing something right (and I'm not just talking about on the pitch) - much of what happens at a club goes on behind closed doors; all I'm saying is I have a job like most people and I take responsibility for my own progression regardless of the management team above me...It's all too easy for me to say someone had it on for me thats why I didn't get promoted, instead I like to be a little cleverer than that after all its a dog eat dog world...
I fail to see how keanes failure is <span>mostly</span> down to Rafa? It may be fair for you to suggest that he played a part in Keanes failure but to be primarily responsible is a ridiculous suggestion.
If a player cannot perform in line with the manager's expectations and standard, he has to go. End of story.
ReplyDeleteGetting paid tens of thousands of week and then griping that he didnt get TLC or whatever is not on. If I did that at my job, I would be laughed at to high hell.
These guys are PROFESSIONALS and should be able to adapt and perform.
Jamie, quite obvious you are very good with stats, now that you've proclaimed Benitez a shit head and of no use to Liverpool, can you advice on the way forward? Cos that's what really matters to all of us, not name calling or crucifications!
ReplyDeleteStop talking nonsense. Where did I proclaim Benitez a 'shit head'?! Where have I called him any names? Stop making stuff up please.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to like pedantry Jaimie so I'll point out that your definition of a myth is laughable... the definition of myth is that it's NOT accepted as historical fact..
ReplyDeleteThe other one that makes me smile is the implication that Benitez should hold up his hand and say "you're right, I'm useless, completely misjudged a number of signings and really messed up on Robbie Keane - my fault, sorry." What world do you live in where you think this would help? Have you EVER known a top class manger say this? Did SAF apologise for losing an eminently winnable CL final because he used the wrong team selection and the wrong tactics!? No, didn't think so, part of coping with management at a high level is not displaying weakness. Considering the relentless flak that Rafa's subjected to in the media, your good self included, it would be suicidal to start accepting blame / fault. He probably does realise mistakes have been made but what you seem to want would be detrimental to him, the club and crucially the squad's confidence. But if it'd make you happy then sure, he can follow the lead of Mourinho, Cappello, Hiddink, Ancelloti et al who are forever holding their hands up and saying what a silly mistake they've made.
As for Keane, drop it, it's a pointless argument. He didn't get the chances his reputation & cost may have warranted but equally he never showed the form to earn those chances. Could Rafa have got more out of him? Maybe. Could he have played better? Definitely. Old news.
Just to let you know Rafa has been quoted on http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_5701267,00.html about who he wanted more, Keane or Barry.
ReplyDelete<span>"When we wanted to sign Barry, we were sure we were signing a good player with a very good mentality and the quality to play in the Premier League. The priority was Barry, then Keane."</span>
They key priority was BARRY!!!
IMO the assumption you can made from that is that Parry wanted to sign Keane more and didnt think Barry was worth the money. I am not saying that Rafa didnt want Keane I am just wondering what life would have been like with Barry rather than Keane if Rafa got his way and could only sign one...
yes i think he wants him out , and yes he wants a second rate manager to take his place , he made a couple of aricles stating that martin'o niell is the guy that can take lfc to be a premiership champions again..
ReplyDeletetbh i dont think hes right about that.
Jaimie why did you delete my comment about an earlier article you wrote (August 2008) where you slam Keane as a waste of £20m and you wouldn't expect him to get 10 goals in the season he joined?!
ReplyDeleteI didn't break any rules so please tell me why you delete my comments!
I firmly believe you delete any comments that prove your opinions to be extremely fluid concepts that change from one article to the next.
You can't have it both ways Jaimie, either Keane was a waste of £20m and you didn't rate him or Rafa was to blame for his failings, which is it?
when was keane played out wide?
ReplyDeletehe was mostly played just behind torres, and up instead of torres. he's a good player, just didn't happen for him at liverpool.
liverpool generally don't play 4-4-2.
if he scored goals he'd still be there. missed too many good opportunities and didn't take his chances. you can moan that it's benitez' fault all you want, but if keane put the ball in the back of the net a few more times then he'd still be a red. some players can handle the pressure, some can't.
comparing his stats to kuyts is pointless, you might as well compare them to reina's.
gerrard is the most subbed liverpool player ever
ReplyDelete13 goals and 5 assists in nearly 12 months...and then with stats similar to that for Liverpool players you go on about how that's not enough - what a big hypocrite you are
ReplyDelete*sigh*
ReplyDeleteGet your facts right.
I said he's scored 13 goals and hit 5 assists SINCE LEAVING LIVERPOOL. That is not a 12 month period, is it?!
Why can we longer post responses to this article?
ReplyDeleteWhat's up Jaimie? Has someone proved that you've previously slated Robbie Keane in an article in August 2008? I believe you called him a waste of £20m and you would be very surprised if he managed to get 10 goals to his name for the entire season!
You've changed your tune somewhat!
I deleted your comments because they were full derogatory comments. To answer your question though, it is very simple:
ReplyDelete1. I was against the Keane signing from the beginning because I knew that he would be misused by Benitez, and I felt the 20m should've been spent better (i.e. 10m on a back-up striker - 10m on another attacking player). Buying a 20m striker when our formation wsa predominantly 4231 seemed ridiculous. Benitez might say now that he intended to play 442 but gI just don't believe that, especially given the predominant formation he's played since then.
2. Just because I was against the keane signing did not mean I didn't think he was a good player. In my view he is a very good player; not a great, but effective.
3. Furthermore, I may have been against the signing but once he was signed, all the is irrelevent. Once at Liverpool, players deserve to be treated FAIRLY.
4. Keane was not treated fairly, thus I was ( and am) unhappy about that.
5. Keane ultimately turned out to be a waste of money BUT it didn't need to be that way.
To be completely clear:
Irrespective of what I or anyone else thinks of a player, once they are at Anfield they should be treated FAIRLY.
People can still post, as this comment proves. Your comments, however, are now pre-moderated. Your last bunc of comments were full of snideyness and derogatory comments. I have absolutely no problem with people trying to prove me wrong, but if you can't do it without resorting to cheap playground tactics then your comment will not go live.
ReplyDeleteState your argument and stick to the facts. I am not interested in what you think about my writing style/ability. if you have a problem wwith that, email me and we;ll discuss it. Don't clog up the comment thread with stuff like that.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI think the correct title of this article should be:
'I'm sorry Higgs and Gillette but Robbie Keane's failure at Liverpool is mostly down to you not buying Barry as well'
As you say in your comments you don't think Keane would have been a great player but you think he would be effective. Well isn't that what Rafa thought as well? In the times today Benitez argues that he wanted both Barry and Keane with Barry on the left passing to Keane up front with Torres.
Now Rafa didn't get Barry and he had set up the team with the intention of playing both players. This meant that Rafa had to adapt and so did Keane who came in thinking he would be playing with Torres.
I was excited that Keane signed for Liverpool but the fact is that Keane did not make himself undropable by scoring goals. Yes Benitez subbed him at 70 minutes but this was usually when he hadn't produced anything in the game. I think the pressure of playing for liverpool and the media comments evertime Liverpool played of the fact that Keane cost 20m didn't help. This created pressure on Keane meaning that perhaps he tried to hard when perhaps if he had relaxed the goals would have come.
Unfortunately we don't have the luxary of seeing players every day in training and maybe for whatever reason Rafa just didn't have confidence in Keane, that happens! Managers trust some players over others...
When Torres and Gerrard formed their prolific partnership towards the end of last season the need for Keane as a second striker to Torres had to be mitigated by the fact that Totenham were offering to buy back keane allowing Liverpool to recoup pretty much most of the money Rafa spent .
I think that Rafa with an eye on next season thought he could buy barry cheaply by selling Alonso (if he wanted to go) and use the rest of the money to buy a second striker. The sale of Keane did not derail our title challenge last seaon because even with Keane in the team the negative approach (two holding midfield players) that Rafa used against the lesser teams would have meant that we still would have drawn too many games. That is what the purchase of Johnson and Acqualina were about to inject some more direct attacking mentality into the team.
If Rafa made a mistake this season it is that perhaps he should have spent the 17 m he spent on Johnson on a second strik or simply resigned Michael Owen.
It's as credible as you comapring Keane's record to Kuyt's record that season. Considering that Kuyt played mostly on the right and not as a striker and that he played more 20 odd more games and three times as many minutes. Yes that's credible too.
ReplyDeletePlease don't start this argument again. About destructive managment, Babel, Lucas blah blah blah. What has Babel done in the last year to show that deserves a place in the first team? Nothing. Apart from that goal against Lyon he has done nothing of signficance all season. Why is it wrong then for Rafa to leave him on the bench. If Yossi or Riera are playing better then why does Babel deserve to get in the team. If Babel doesn't have the personal drive to better himself so that he is included into the first team then surely that is a problem with Babel and not Rafa. When it comes down to it Babel just isn't playing well enough to deserve a first team place. It has nothing to do with destrcutive maangeent, bad man managementm ebing substitued often. As somebody has laready said you are dropped or substiuted beacuse a) you're not playing well, b) you want to make a tatctical change. In most cases Babel hasn't played well enough.
ReplyDeleteSome players like Lucas are lambasted by the media even when he does nothing wrong, so I think it is good man management that Rafa stands by him and shows faith in him. Whether people think he is good enough for Liverpool or not he has shown great improvement because he has worked hard. You work hard and Rafa likes you. Which is why he likes Kuyt.
I've asked you this before and you don't respond: if you are so quick to chastise Rafa for a player playing badly why is you never congartulate him when a player is playing well? Does Rafa deserve any credit for Yossi becoming a very good player for us? And improving Mascherano, so much so that he is now captain of his country. Does he get any credit for this. No, because you only look at the negatives.
To be honest, who cares about Keane now. He plays for Spurs again, he's not a Liverpool player. He can finish top scorer at the end of the season and win player of the season and I still won't care because he doesn;t play for us anymore.
I say it because it's true - the message baord on those sites account for a large proportion of traffic and repeat visitors. This is a fact, so there is no point trying to dispute it. People on the forums start their own topics independent of the site content. This site relies on original writing to attract visitors, which is a much harder thing to do.
ReplyDeleteRafa tried a number of different combinations and found that, in the end, Gerrard and Torres were the most effective combination. Letting those two combine in the front third was when we produced our best football. Keane just didn't fit into that, when we played him up front with Torres we did NOT play our best football.
ReplyDeleteYou talk all the time about "aces in their places" but you've never quite recognised that it is Rafa who has moulded Gerrard into the attacking force he is today. Current and past England managers agreed. This is the true reason why Keane could never find his place. When you compare his performances to those of Gerrard there was only one clear winner in that role supporting the main striker.
Rafa has explained this over and over again, what about it don't you understand? With Barry in the team, playing on the left or in an advanced role the entire team tactics would change. Without him, Rafa had to adapt the tactics. He thus asked Keane to adapt too. Keane failed to do that. You might feel better by suggesting that Rafa is to "blame" for this but who cares? It didn't work out and Rafa should be commended for acting quickly. We didn't lose a lot of money and we produced our best ever performance in the Premier League. Go ahead and throw around another "trophies are all that matters" cliche but you can't ignore the results.
This mantra about players having to start after scoring a goal is rediculous. Players are chosen based on how the team needs to play and what the best combinations will be. Keane was given every chance to succeed, no one can deny that. He should have been able to motivate himself but when it counted he just didn't produce. As an Irish football fan I've seen Robbie for many many years now and frankly I wasn't surprised. He's the kind of player who needs lots of time on the ball, lots of shots on goal and lots of time on the pitch. Rafa asked more of him, he expected the player to achieve more. That you think there is something wrong with that is the perfect example of why you simply are not capable of getting it. Of course that doesn't mean it makes no sense.
If you want to know why Rafa played Kuyt so many more minutes than Keane, its because of fitness levels.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/05/12/1260663/rafael-benitez-dirk-kuyt-is-liverpools-mr-duracell
I don't think Rafa held Keane in the same regard. It is my opinion when Rafa talks about "playing at the level" i think he is referring to fitness and his ability to influence 90mins of play.
Benitez never takes responsibilty for anything because he is thick as pig s**t,
ReplyDeleteHe has won nothing at liverpool.
Champions league and FA cup wins were with Houllier squad.
We have had, crouch, keane, bellamy all at liverpool, proven league scorers and Beitez sold them all because he is stupid, well done benitez, Voronin is much better, fat spanish waiter
I agree. Kuyt is a DISASTER to this club.
ReplyDeleteJaimie, you show little respect by slagging of someone's opinion as a 'typically cliched response'. In my opinion, you are clueless. You certainly eed a better understanding of stats before you go quoting them definitively left right and centre.
ReplyDeletemate if you read the rest of his interview with the Times, getting Keane to work in the system was dependant on signing Barry.
ReplyDeleteI love this.
ReplyDeleteThese stats just prove that Keane was utter trash.
I love this.
ReplyDeleteThese just prove that Keane was utter trash.