26 Oct 2009

VIEW FROM THE ENEMY: United's defeat; Torres vs. Rooney - Liverpool-Kop interviews 'The Republik of Mancunia'...

Scott the red over at 'The Republik of Mancunia' has kindly taken the time to answer some questions about - amongst other things - where it all went wrong for United at Anfield yesterday.

Jaimie Kanwar: What went wrong for United at Anfield?

Scott the Red: The first problem was the team selection. With Darren Fletcher out injured we needed some grit and fight in the centre of midfield, with Anderson could have provided us with. I can only assume Sir Alex Ferguson thought we were going to control the game with our passing from the centre of midfield but in games like these, you need someone to boss the midfield physically, something Anderson should be selected for when both Fletcher and Owen Hargreaves are unavailable.

Secondly, it’s hard to ignore the impact of the referee in the result. Despite dominating possession (57% according to Sky Sports) away from home we didn’t create enough clear cut chances to win the game, but the ref did play his part. The most obvious was the decision to just yellow card Carragher for his professional foul on Owen.

Vidic committed a similar foul on Gerrard last season, although he wasn’t the last man and Gerrard was far wider of the goal than Owen was, and was sent off for it, a decision which received no criticism from the media. Owen had beaten your defence was pace and had a good opportunity to equal the score – we were massively disadvantaged by that opportunity being taken away but Liverpool weren’t punished equally – Carragher should have been off, it was blatant.

Also, with half an hour played Carragher got his foot to a ball that Carrick was in possession of but he didn’t win it – it remained within Carrick’s path and had he not been brought down he would have been able to carry on in to the box.

Lucas committed nine fouls in the game and the referee gave him his ‘last warning’ with less than half an hour played – he shouldn’t have been on the pitch to pass to Ngog. Still, refereeing decisions come and go. Liverpool got them all on Sunday, I hope we’re as fortunate when we’re next on our travels, at Stamford Bridge!

Thirdly, we just weren’t clinical enough. Rooney and Valencia both had opportunities they should have scored and they didn’t. In tight games against your rivals you only get one or two good chances and we didn’t take ours, Liverpool did.

JK - That's 3 games in a row in which United have comprehensively lost to Liverpool. What has changed? Why can't United beat Liverpool anymore?

STR - It's a strange one but I suppose these things happen in cycles. Before last season, Liverpool hadn't even managed a goal against us in the league since 2004, and even that was a John O'Shea own goal! Last season was Liverpool's best year since the last time they won the league, so it stands to reason they would finally get a result against us.

As for yesterday, like someone on my blog said, "when a fox chases a rabbit, the fox is running for his dinner, but the rabbit is running for his life!" Quite simply, Liverpool couldn't afford to lose again yesterday. I’d argue against it being a “comprehensive” victory for Liverpool though.

United didn’t play very well and whilst still at home, Liverpool needed generous calls from the referee to keep all three points. We saw more of the ball and neither side had many clear cut chances – Torres took Liverpool’s, whilst Valencia saw his come back off the woodwork. There wasn’t a lot in it.

JK - Fernando Torres and Wayne Rooney: who is the better player?

STR - When looking at effectiveness in ways that we can measure unaffected by emotional bias, statistics, then Torres is the better player. Of course statistics don’t do justice to Rooney though considering he’s been forced out to the left for the past couple of seasons and has played second fiddle to Cristiano Ronaldo. In contrast, Torres has been the man at Liverpool with all play revolving around him, so it stands to reason he would score more goals.

But who would I rather have in my team? Without a doubt Wayne Rooney. It’s not just what he adds to the team in terms of goals and assists, but the winning mentality, the passion, the drive and the determination. That’s the emotional side of fans that look for more than just the stats.

JK - How do you rate much-maligned Liverpool pair Dirk Kuyt and Lucas Leiva?

STR - Speaking honestly, I don’t watch a lot of Liverpool games so don’t know much about Lucas from firsthand knowledge. I’ve seen his mistakes and caught highlights on MOTD and he doesn’t appear to be a dreadful player but he wouldn’t get close to the United team – Fletcher, Giggs, Scholes, Carrick, Anderson and Hargreaves are all superior to him, which puts in to perspective how shallow Liverpool’s squad is in this position.

I’ve seen more of Kuyt over the years though and what he lacks in ability he almost makes up for in his work rate. He is a ‘trier’ and should be applauded for playing out of position to fit in to Benitez’s Liverpool but I don’t really rate him.

JK - Who do you see as United's main challengers for the title this season?

STR - Chelsea. Arsenal have had a good start and they have great players but they don’t have the squad to win the league. Liverpool have the potential to go on a good run, with Gerrard, Torres and Benayoun all capable of making a massive difference, but as a team, don’t have the ability or mentality to win the title.

Chelsea have been there and done it before though, they will be boosted by the return of Michael Essien and Joe Cole this season and they have a manager who knows what he’s doing. Their best players are all a year older which works in our favour though.

JK - With lots of mistakes recently, Rio Ferdinand's form has to be a concern. Are you worried he's on a downward spiral?

STR - It’s too hard to judge really. He’s been in and out of the team with injury and just as soon as he gets a good number of games under his belt he gets injured again. He’s a great player but I do wonder whether all his off-field projects might have a negative on his game. But it really is just a case of wait and see.

Saying that, we made lots of mistakes defensively last season but seemed to get away with them more often than not. The 4-1 at Old Trafford was probably the first time all season that our opponents made us pay for our mistakes.

JK - No team has ever won the title 4 years in a row, either pre or post Premiership. With history clearly against you, do you think United can still win the title?

STR - No team had ever won The Treble. No team had ever won 11 titles in 17 years. As a club, clearly we enjoy and excel in achieving things no other club has been able to, so history certainly doesn’t make me question what we will win this season. It can’t be our expectation to win the title every season though, the English league is far too competitive, but we’re fortunate in that whilst we’re weaker this season, our title rivals are too, so I wouldn’t rule anything out for us.

JK - In which positions do you think United are *currently* superior to Liverpool?

STR - Defensively, the only position Liverpool are stronger than us in is right-back, with Neville past his best, O’Shea not really owning the position, and Wes Brown/Rafael still not recovered from injury. Van der Sar, Vidic, Rio and Evra and all better than Liverpool’s counterparts.

Carragher might have been able to give Rio a run for his money during any other season, given Rio’s lacking fitness and form, but by all accounts Carragher isn’t have the best year of his life either.

In the midfield Gerrard would get in to our team above our central midfield options, but I’d have Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson (and Hargreaves) over Mascherano, particularly this season.

Neither side have brilliant wingers but Giggs has been spot on this year (I dunno if he’s classed as a winger or not anymore though) and Valencia has just started to come in to his own but it’s really too early to judge. Is Kuyt classed as a winger? In terms of goals and assists he’s done better than Valencia over the course of the season so far.

Up front Torres has to get in the team and I suppose it would have to be at the expense of Berbatov, who I think is a fabulous player.

JK - Which is better: the United team of 1998-2001 or 2006-09?

STR - The starting XI of 98-01 was better than now but our squad is much better. Take the bench of the European Cup final 99 - Van Der Gouw, May, P Neville, Brown (had made sixteen league appearances ever for us), Greening (had made three league appearances ever for us), Solskjaer and Sheringham. Compare that with 08 - Kuszczak, O'Shea, Fletcher, Giggs, Anderson, Nani and Silvestre. Back in the 90’s it was all about the strongest XI but these days you have to have the strongest squad.

The midfield four of Giggs-Keane-Scholes-Beckham all at their peak is probably the best midfield you’ll ever see, but outside of them were just Butt, Blomqvist and Cruyff. Today’s midfield consists of Fletcher, Hargreaves, Scholes, Anderson, Nani, Giggs, Park and Valencia which doesn’t offer a better midfield four but collectively we have far more better quality options.

JK - Was Ferguson right to get rid of Jaap Stam?

STR - Sir Alex Ferguson says that was one of the biggest mistakes of his time at United so I guess he knows best. Stam did bring out a book calling our players cunts and claiming the manager told them to cheat in Europe, so I don’t think it was necessarily the end of the world that someone like that was no longer at the club!

He was 29 then and the following year we bought 23-year-old Rio, something we may otherwise have missed out on. He was a quality player with one of my favourite ever chants but everything happens for a reason and it’s not as if we’ve suffered too much without him.

JK - Are you worried that when Sir Alex Ferguson leaves, United will experience a decline similar to what Liverpool experienced when Kenny Dalglish left in 1991?

STR - At United we are fortunate to have so many former players involved at the club I imagine that will continue for some time. Sir Bobby Charlton, Solskjaer, Phelan, McClair and until recently, Bryan Robson all are still involved professionally with the club.

I imagine the likes of Giggs and Neville will stay on and Sir Alex will probably take up a role higher up within the club when he retires. In other words, we won’t be going cold turkey when our manager does finally retire and I imagine the philosophy of our club, in bringing through youth and playing attacking football, will continue regardless of who is in charge.

JK - Who are the contenders to take over from Ferguson when he eventually retires?

STR - I fancy Laurent Blanc for the job. He’s been great at Bordeaux and think he’d be worth a punt. Would honestly be gutted if we got Mourinho – people bang on about him having the ‘personality’ for the job, but I would rather someone to have the ability to do what we do at United. He was shocking in the transfer market, he wouldn’t know attacking football if it smacked him over the head and he’s never brought through young players.

Read my reciprocal interview with RoM here --->>


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  1. <span>57% according to Sky Sports??????????? </span>
    That is laughable. Skew Sports more like it.

  2. Ferdinand is on the way out.  Too many mistakes recently and too much stuff going on off the pitch (restaurant and film producing to name just two).  he was never worth 30m in the first place.  Same goes for Vidic if you ask me - I can see United's central defensive partnership changing coimpletely within the next couple of seasons.

  3. Come on, Lucas shouldnt have been on the pitch to make that pass?  It's not like he's a bruiser like Roy keane or Ince, ie.  You're basically saying that Man United were bullied to defeat by a puny brazilian!  Lucas is not renowned for his strenght and tackling ability, but if that's all it takes to beat United, I'll take it ;)

  4. haha, Rooney over Torres!

  5. Irony or or was he serious and made a really shitty statement?

  6. Reina = VdS
    Johnson > O'Shea
    Agger/Skrtel > Ferdinand
    Carragher < Vidic
    Kuyt < Valencia
    Gerrard >>>>> Scholes/Carrick/Fletcher
    Mascherano > Anderson/Carrick/Fletcher
    Lucas < any of the midfielders United have
    Benayoun > Berbatov
    Torres >>>>>>>>>> Rooney

  7. I personally think Torres is a better player but Scott gives reasons WHY he would rather have Rooney.  Why do you think Torres is better?  Perhaps you could explain...

  8. Alan from Ireland5:21 pm, October 26, 2009

    Interviewing people who profit off the dead - well done Jaimie you and your cronie Scott The Red suit each other.

    ROM profit off the dead - Scott the Red still didn't answer my retort in one of your previous articles.

    Liverpool-Kop.com aka a Manc wind up web site.... I know this will be deleted.

  9. Seriously, Alan - grow up!  Your view of the issue is amazingly simplistic, though i wouldn't expect anything less from you.

    Profit off the dead?!  What a load of crap.  And just because I'm a Liverpool fan doesn't mean I can't be fair about the situation.

    if we're talking about profiting from the dead, how about Spirit of Shankly profiting at their end of season bash with massess of their members joining in with the 'Munich!' chants. 

    You and your SOS brethren are an embarrassment to the majority of Liverpool fans.

  10. Rooney over Torres? Any day, mate. Any player that's not a cheating diving cunt.

  11. Just because he's made a few mistakes throughout the season so far, you imply that he's on his way out? Your really are clueless, he's been plagued with injuries and haven't hit form yet. He was worth every penny of the 30 million you're talking about. He became world class, one of the best defenders in the world (along with vidic) since he joined utd.

  12. <span>Lucasssss</span> - bullied? No but he made enough cynical challenges to deserve two yellow cards. He made more fouls than Evra or Vidic put together and was given a warning early in the first half, yet the referee did nothing about his persistant fouling.

  13. Interesting but nothing new there though, a man u fan canes the ref and thinks they are better than us in every department. Hahahahaha. It's all a debate, but seriously, Rooney only scores half as many as Torres end of. By the way there's also an arguement for Dirk being better than Rooney looking at last years stats and he played on the wing too!!

  14. rooney is apig, torres is a spanish god.. end of argument

  15. Torres by far is a better finisher, great end product. A polished player it seems. Can he improve as a footballer?
    Rooney's not having a linear progression, but you get glimpses of all types of quality with that guy. Hes more a rough diamond, just a question of "if" it will all click in with consistancy. His goals comes in spurts, his creative contribution in other spurts, his maturity also. Personally I love his games at England where Capello seems to bring these things out of him more often, 2010WC will be interesting.

  16. You can't be serious in thinking Van Der Sar is better than Reina, that is the most delusional comment you made. Agger is better than Rio, I would agree Vidic is better than Carra or Skrtel and Evra is the best left back in Europe. Maybe Carra should have got a straight Red for the challenge on Owen, Vidic only got a yellow for hauling down Kuyt though and that could have and should have been a straight red, you seem to forget that, but to say he never got the ball for the challenge on Carrick is absolutely crazy. Just because the ball never moved in the way you would expect it too, doesn't mean it was a foul and the replays proved this. If a Man UTD player made that tackle it would have gone down as being an art. Fair play for giving your views but to blame the referee and not your own players is silly.

  17. Berbatov pulls Kuyt shirt and him to the ground in the box and no call, would have been 2 yellows for him. Evra slams Onion's back of the head and no call, would have been 2 yellows! Seems like the refs had a bad day and not just in Liverpool's favor!

  18. Your main striker is bought to do one thing, score goals and Torres scores more than Rooney, who is regardless of where he plays UTD's main striker any other extra qualities are a bonus both have these extras in abundance. Torres also has passion, drive and determination and a huge winning mentality, and a far better temperament than Rooney ever will. It is Torres over Rooney any day. I wonder what this fella would have said if Fergie would have had the balls to sign Torres in the couple of seasons before we did when he had the chance, apparently he never because Torres can't finish. Then he signs Berbatov - WTF.

  19. Evra is what ? When fit Aruelio is better than Evra. You just need to see his stats. Minutes played, goals, assists. It's not even close. Alothough Evra is more consistent that is the only thing why people rate him so much. 2 years ago he was definitely the best Left back in the world - now, not even close. Since the begining of the year he's mistake prone to say the least.

    Reina > VDS - easily
    Carragher, Skrtel < Vidic
    Agger > Rio
    Mascherano > Fletcher (Lucas on form)
    Lucas < Carrick
    Gerrard > Rooney
    Torres > Berbatov
    Benayoun > Every United WINGER

  20. I don't get your point who do you actually think is better, Rooney or Torres? You are not seriously implying Torres is a cheat and a diver are you?

  21. Get real mate. Aurelio has hardly played left back for us, certainly not this season, when he has been fit. If Evra is not the best then he is certainly one of the top three! Aurelio as much as I like him is not close, you say Evra is better because of his consistency surely that backs my point, I would rather have a consistent full back with quality rather than someone with quality but injured a lot.

  22. Some interesting points and the debate about Rooney v Torres will rage on i'm sure but for me it's one of those situations where neither team ould wnat to swap their player.  Like Carragher v Ferdinand.  Carragher epitomisies everything good about Liverpool and we wouldn't swap him for another CB in world football even though he may not be technicallyt he best.  I'm sure Utd feel the same about Rooney (although im not saying he doesn't have the technical abilty)!

    The point regarding the keepers is crazy.  I wont say Reina is the best keeper in the world outright, but i think he is as good as any other keepr around these days.  He is a modern keeper who has improved every season since he came here.  Fantastic shot-stopper.  Very commanding despite not being the biggest.  By far and away the best offensive keeper in terms of his distibution both with his feet and hands.  add to that his character and his penalty saving repuation and i think you have arguable the most compete keeper in world football.  Van der saar for me is capable of a mistake at any point and im more than happy for him to remain Utd No1 for as long as possible.  i cant believe anyone would disagree with Reina being the No1 keeper int he Prem surely?

  23. torres and rooney are both serial divers. the worse is torres. dives like a girl

  24. the bias of liverpool fans are amazing. all they wanna show is that all the liverpool players are effectively better than the man utd ones.  well they didnt won any shit for so long so that in my book is why the man utd team rates higher.

  25. like i say when u support ur team ur opinions are very bias. this season both keepers are accountable for their teams poor results same as the defenders.

    most fans only watch liverpools games or man utd games not many watches both side.

  26. idiotic argument. so i can say that your mothers a whore.

  27. Currius as to How you worked out that Torres is staticly a better palyer than Wayne Rooney ?

    Last Season, Rooney scored 24 Goals and 17 Assists,

    Last Season, Torres Scored 22 Goals with 7 Assists,

    This Season, Rooney has 13 Goals and 1 Assists,

    This Season, Torres has 14 Goals and 1 Assist,


  28. The stats you're looking at include international games and non-competitive games.  In my analysis, I looked at:

    * All competitive games (PL/FA/CC/CL)
    * Since Torres arrived (2007)

    I looked at the following:

    * Goals
    * Assists
    * Shots on target
    * Goals per minute
    * Goals per game
    * Overall goals/assists ratio

    I argued that Torres was individually more EFFECTIVE attacking. There is a difference.

    The article is here:


  29. Torres dives when? He didn't Sunday when he could have, I admit he sometimes asks the referee for more protection than he is entitled to especially when he is not having a good game and he has to remember it the English league, but that is when he is on his feet and he turns around to the referee but he is not a serial diver, I cannot even remember him diving at all, I am not syaing he hasn't, I just cannot remember and if he was a serial diver then I would. I know Steven Gerrard has gone down too easily and Baros did it as a matter of course but Torres. Nah.

  30. every fan has bias mate, and to say it is just Liverpool fans is ridiculous. One fact I would point out and I would challenge any UTD fan to prove me wrong is that 2 years ago only two maybe three at a push Liverpool players could match Man UTD's in terms of quality now it is at least 8-9 of the first 11 are at least an equal to UTD's. Anyway why the obsession with our clubs fansite? Haven't you got any of your own, that have this quality?

  31. why have you not included internationals ? thats left a gaping hole in your summary.

    also the stats I have linked do not count non-competitive games,

    Intenrational games are important it gives you a better idea of an indiviudal beacuse they are playing in a different system with different team mates, for example Spain can score from anyone, but Liverpool are set up in a way so that all there open play ends with Torres,

    thats just a single example, but not to include international statistics is not a fair analysis

  32. How many games did Torres play compared to Rooney last season? Unless you use a full range of stats then they mean nothing as they can be tailored to justify any point anyone makes.

  33. look at the links that I posted for the "full range"

    Rooney started 4 more games than Torress last season

  34. In the league according to your stats page he (Torres) started five games less and scored two goals more. As I have said before your main striker is bought, paid and judged on the goals he scores, more goals in less games proves to me he is better at the job he is paid to do. You cannot count internationals in this argument as over a league season each team plays the same opponents twice, in internationals this is not the case. Comparing the two as international footballers is a completely different argument all together, I would argue that Rooney was better for England than Torres is for Spain. But this argument is solely based club football.

  35. "
    <p><span><span>Reina = VdS </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Johnson > O'Shea </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Agger/Skrtel > Ferdinand </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Carragher < Vidic </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Kuyt < Valencia </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Gerrard >>>>> Scholes/Carrick/Fletcher </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Mascherano > Anderson/Carrick/Fletcher </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Lucas < any of the midfielders United have </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Benayoun > Berbatov </span></span>
    <span>Torres >>>>>>>>>> Rooney"</span>

    <span>PERFECT!!! Scotts views are non sense at other clubs.</span></p>

  36. <span>You should be comparing all games the player has played in, not just selected ones. Otherwise it damages the credibility of the statements; you must use the stats from every competitive game,</span>
    <span>I’m sure this has already been mentioned but Fernando Torres is a Striker and Wayne Rooney is </span><span>Trequartista</span>

  37. For the majority of games last season, rooney started on the left wing, somewhere other than his original position, and still managed to score goals/assist.

  38. 9 players???

    Gerrard, Torres & Mascherano for sure, but then... maybe Johnson, the others wouldn't even come close to the first team!

  39. Rooney has so many qualities that are rarely found in strikers in the world today, including Torres. His work rate is brilliant, doesn't stop until the final whistle, tracks back/defends, plays in a different position when asked to and doesn't complain and is basically a team player through and through. Just because Torres scores more doesn't mean he's better. Rooney offers more to the team as a striker than any other player.

  40. Are you saying our right hand side with Kuyt is not at least an equal to Park or Valencia then? Valencia may have cost a hell of a lot more but he is nowhere close to him in terms of important output. Park is a poor mans Kuyt. Reina is far better than your keeper, Agger is younger but at least equal to Ferdinand, Benayoun is now as good if not better than the current Paul Scholes (not the Paul Scholes of the past mind).  I also said they are at least equal not actually better apart from Reina, which is undoubted (apart from in the most delusional of UTD fans minds). My four plus your four equals 8. I did say 8-9, I'll settle on 8. There is now honestly only Giggs (who is on borrowed time), Vidic and Evra I would seriously consider swapping. No Liverpool fan could have said that just 18 months ago. Some Man UTD fans have some seriously cold hard facts to face upto.

  41. Actually you can. International football and club football are totally different not in the laws but if you remotely understand the game then you will know why and I won't bother wasting my time explaining. Also as I said it is unlikely in a given season two international teams will play the same opposition equally unlike in the league. What happens if Rooney plays Internationals against say Andorra, Macedonia and Luxembourg. Torres plays three against Italy, France and Germany, is it fair to compare that no. The league everyone plays each other twice home and away so there is a more level grounding to compare stats. Trequartista you been playin' too much Football Manager my firend!!

  42. As a striker it does, and the original discussion was about who is the best striker. Rooney was bought as a Striker. Not my fault if your manager plays him out of position.

  43. and your point is???

  44. Kuyt is a poor mans Tevez, we don't need Tevez so we definitely don't need Kuyt... Valencia is getting better every game he plays, he scored the winning goals against Moscow and Bolton! BTW Kuyt cost 18 Mio. € and Valencia cost 18,9 Mio € so he really cost a hell of a lot more LMAO

    Park is at Utd cause of the Asian Market...

    "Reina is a better keeper" makes me laugh everytime I read it, for example: why did you drop out of the CL last year??? (was it maybe cause of Reina's goalkeeping?) van der Save is a nearly mistake free goalkeeper, who has won everything possible, but he's nearing his career end so SAF will definitely buy a new keeper soon (Akinfeev, Neuer, Adler the possible replacements)

    We don't need Agger, we have Johnny Evans (he paired with Vidic in the 13 games without a goal against last year), whos way more talented, isn't as injury prone and has more upside, as Rio's replacement, Utd these days is thinking about not to extend Rio's contract, because theres so much faith in Johnny!

    Benayoun, who's definitely overachieving this season, is better than Scholes right, but our best midfielder is Darren Fletcher, not to mention Owen Hargreaves, who will hopefully return to his old (award winning) form soon, Fletcher or a healthy Hargreaves anytime over Benayoun

    And there's a load of very talented youngsters coming through (Macheda, Welbeck, C.Evans, Da Silva Twins, King...) who are higher rated than the LFC youngsters, who apparently don't see much playing time!

    BTW Chelsea for the title this year, we lack one great playmaker, who either will be bought after this season or is coming to Carrington in the January Transfer Window in form of Adem Ljajic (who is the highest rated youngster to come out of Ex-Yugoslavia for many many years...maybe he's the successor to CR7, but who knows)

  45. Just because you bang your chest everytime you score, and play with a scowl on your face doesn't mean you're more passionate and bring the something extra to the game. Torres is just as passionate, if not more, than Rooney. Yes, Rooney has played at more than one position for United, but that doesn't make him better. Torres is far more consistent in the big games, and even scores those vital goals when he doesn't play that well. Ultimately, though, I think this whole talk of who you would rather have, or who's the better player differs from team to team. 

  46. Why should we include international games? England had a very weak group. If you want to include internationals, lets take a look at Euros and World Cups where the opposition is of a higher quality. 

  47. How about we take a look at real competitions like World Cups and Euros? Not meaningless qualifying games against Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. 

  48. Full of contradiction this article. Anyway one of our youngsters has just got a full cap for Argentina, is playing reularly for the 1st team, even though our two more senior left backs are fully fit. Insua is way ahead in terms of devlopment and quality than any young full-back you lot have, but I still don't know of he will make at as it is still too soon to judge him but we have high hopes.. Kuyt cost £10.1m, Valencia cost circa £17m, don't try and be clever using euros when you know exactly that the exchange rate was way different when the two players were signed, why would Man UTD pay Wigan in Euros for Valencia anyway?? You mention Agger being injury prone and Jonny Evans being better then bleat on about how good a healthy Hargreaves is, a massive contradiction, Hargreaves is at the very least as injury prone as Agger anyhow. Not my fault Park is at UTD because of the Asian market he is still a poor mans Kuyt that was my point and I stand by it. Tevez no longer plays for UTD, but last season if he is not good enough why did you have all those banners and songs for him, and why did SAF offer £25m when he didn't even value the player that much? Again massive contradiction. I will judge your youngsters when they come through and are more established, LFC also have youngsters coming through it means nothing until they have a couple of seasons under their belt, Arsenal have ha dmany goups of fantatsic youngsters not many have come through though. Laughable how you say Benayoun is overachieving this season when he was excellent for the majority of last also, if he is overachieving then what about Darren Fletcher?? One thing I do agree with is Chelsea are my favs for the league, it will depend of course on how they cope in January and Feb with the loss of key players, and also whether their transfer ban will be suspended or even overturned. My original point was about about current 1st team squads Adem Ljajic is not even with the first team squad yet he might be the best thing to come out of Serbia or Yugoslavia for ages and be a replacement for Ronaldo but he might not it is a mute point. If he does it will be at least 3-4 years anyway before he is near th elevel of Ronaldo can you wait that long? Again who you sign in January or next summer is irrelevant in this discussion as it is about our respective current strongest 11 teams. I will review my point as and when signings are made from either side. Notice the way I have not even included Aquillaini because who knows how he will turn out. As I have said previous although in the past some LFC have had to face a massive reality check, so do Man UTD fans currently. 

  49. Tottaly agree with this it's better to look at the 2006 world cup as boths teams played in that instead of pointless qualfiers with weaker teams

  50. My point is, Jonski, is that in the first place, torres and rooney shouldn't be judged on which striker has scored more goals, but the overall contribution/qualities of each player/impact they have to their team.The original discussion is about who is the best striker, and imo it's Rooney.

    I am not complaining to you about the fact that SAF chose to play him out of position, because I know the reason why. What I was trying to say is, Rooney wasn't playing in his natural position yet still managed to score 20+ goals last season. If torres was played on the left wing for the majority of games this season, would he be able to cope and deliver?

  51. Maybe there are youngsters coming through at LFC but Rafa won't play them, because he must win soon...

    You are obsessed with contradictions, aren't you LMAO

    Maradona calls up Insua, thats one cause why he has so much success as Argentina coach (and similar things like making Mascherano captain, etc. ;) )

  52. No Torres probably couldn't, but then strikers don't play on the left wing do they.

  53. Only your contradictions mate. :-P

  54. This article is the perfect example of why I can't stand MU - Rooney over Torres - what a clown.

  55. that was an excuse from Fergie... torres Didnt want to sign for united he did not like the club ethics.... He was only interested in a move from Atletico when Liverpool came in with an offer... Fergie Made The 'he cant finish' Excuse because he got shot down and apperently Fergie asked rafa to not sign Torres and if we leave Torres we can sign Heinze but Rafa said no

  56. Which is why Rooney is a better striker/player than Torres because he has the quality to be able to help the team by scoring goals even if playing in another position i.e left wing! There I've repeated my self.

  57. As I have already mentioned though, your stats are totally flawed because Rooney played out on the left for pretty much all of last season and for large chunks of the season before.

    Ronaldo played the same role for United as Torres does for you - the main man, the player you pass to, because he demanded that role, whilst Rooney just wants to get on the park and help the team, defensively as well as up front.

    When Rooney's been playing the role of a central striker for a few years, then you can start comparing them. But you're comparing two players who have played different positions.