Fernando Torres has jumped aboard the 'Liverpool can't compete because of money' bandwagon. Displaying a defeatist attitude in public is bad enough, but blaming the team's lack of trophies on lack of money is worse because, in my view, it just isn't true.
In an interview, Torres said:
“I think we are close to getting a trophy but it’s very difficult. In football at the moment unfortunately money is really important. Clubs like Manchester United, Chelsea and Manchester City have a lot of money to spend on good players. That’s not the way at Liverpool so we have to try to improve".
Torres' comments follow on from Rafa Benitez's *many* statements on the same issue, a selection of which are below:
"It [Winning the league] is still very difficult when you analyse the financial power of Chelsea, United and Arsenal with the money they can spend."
"It will always be difficult to beat United simply because they are the club with the big money.
"Clearly it is always important to have more money to spend on players. It is the same for every manager".
“We are working hard with the players we have and the money we have. It is always difficult to compete in the Premier League with clubs who have more money".
And these are just comments from the last few months! There is lots more of this type of complaining during Benitez's reign.
This kind of defeatist thinking needs to stop - it is the ultimate cop-out and allows the manager and players to relinquish responsibility for the reality of the situation, which is that Liverpool have failed to win the title because of avoidable human error and Benitez has had PLENTY of money to spend in the last 5 years.
Benitez's theme tune is that it is 'difficult to compete' with other teams who have more money. I personally think this is just an excuse and inaccurate to boot. Let’s look at the facts from last season:
1. Second in the premiership on 86 points
2. Finished only 4 points behind what Alex Ferguson calls his ‘greatest squad ever’
3. Top goal-scorers in the league
4. Lowest number of defeats in the league
5. All of this achieved despite Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres being injured during the season.
6. As a follow on point to #5 above - Gerrard and Torres only started 14 league games together this season.
Pretty good showing despite allegedly not being able to compete with Man U and Chelsea financially!
With the above points in mind, I really fail to see how supposed lack of money has affected the team in any way this season.
Surely it proves the opposite point – that weaker spending power doesn’t really make that much difference at all. if it did, how could Liverpool have such a superb set of results as outlined in points 1-6 above?
Last season, Benitez and the players proved that the league was winnable. Indeed, it was there for the taking and the trophy would be glistening in the Anfield trophy cabinet right now if it wasn't for the same old mistakes being made.
Perhaps if Benitez and his players stopped whining so much in the press about lack of money they'd be more focused and effective when it comes to winning trophies
In an interview, Torres said:
“I think we are close to getting a trophy but it’s very difficult. In football at the moment unfortunately money is really important. Clubs like Manchester United, Chelsea and Manchester City have a lot of money to spend on good players. That’s not the way at Liverpool so we have to try to improve".
Torres' comments follow on from Rafa Benitez's *many* statements on the same issue, a selection of which are below:
"It [Winning the league] is still very difficult when you analyse the financial power of Chelsea, United and Arsenal with the money they can spend."
"It will always be difficult to beat United simply because they are the club with the big money.
"Clearly it is always important to have more money to spend on players. It is the same for every manager".
“We are working hard with the players we have and the money we have. It is always difficult to compete in the Premier League with clubs who have more money".
And these are just comments from the last few months! There is lots more of this type of complaining during Benitez's reign.
This kind of defeatist thinking needs to stop - it is the ultimate cop-out and allows the manager and players to relinquish responsibility for the reality of the situation, which is that Liverpool have failed to win the title because of avoidable human error and Benitez has had PLENTY of money to spend in the last 5 years.
Benitez's theme tune is that it is 'difficult to compete' with other teams who have more money. I personally think this is just an excuse and inaccurate to boot. Let’s look at the facts from last season:
1. Second in the premiership on 86 points
2. Finished only 4 points behind what Alex Ferguson calls his ‘greatest squad ever’
3. Top goal-scorers in the league
4. Lowest number of defeats in the league
5. All of this achieved despite Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres being injured during the season.
6. As a follow on point to #5 above - Gerrard and Torres only started 14 league games together this season.
Pretty good showing despite allegedly not being able to compete with Man U and Chelsea financially!
With the above points in mind, I really fail to see how supposed lack of money has affected the team in any way this season.
Surely it proves the opposite point – that weaker spending power doesn’t really make that much difference at all. if it did, how could Liverpool have such a superb set of results as outlined in points 1-6 above?
Last season, Benitez and the players proved that the league was winnable. Indeed, it was there for the taking and the trophy would be glistening in the Anfield trophy cabinet right now if it wasn't for the same old mistakes being made.
Perhaps if Benitez and his players stopped whining so much in the press about lack of money they'd be more focused and effective when it comes to winning trophies
Jaimie, why are you always criticising people at LFC? I don't understand, do you just enjoy stirring?
ReplyDeleteI actually agree with some of the sentiments in your post, but as I said, I don't know why you always feel the need to stir ...
You're mising the point. Liverpool achieved second place, a mere 4 ponts behind Utd despite not having a history of massive spending. It was excellent play and coaching got us to a position of strength. Having the ability to buy whoever we wanted would have made the job a lot easier and provided the Premiership. Liverpool's biggest signing Torres, is still massively less than say Berbatov, Fredinand, Rooney and Veron. Utd can afford to lash out 15-20 million on the likes of Anderson, Carrick, Hargreaves and Nani without any worry of money wasted. Benitez doesn't have that luxury. Chealsea's and City's obscene spending is evident for all to see.
ReplyDeleteTorres simply makes the point that Liverpool can't compete at these stratospheric levels and have to try a different, harder way.
Why is criticism wrong?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you have to see it as a negative?
Torres and Benitez are being defeatist? How is this conducive to a having a winning mentality? Is this not worthy of debate?
With respect, you and many other Liverpool fans need to adjust your expectations when you visit this site. Being a fan is not just about constantly praising the team. There are two sides to everything, and I choose to look at the critical side of things, hence the whole point of this site: critical realism about LFC.
You even say you agree with some of the points I've raised, yet suggest that I'm wrong to raise them?!
So - am I wrong about the money not being the problem?
Benitez and the players are constantly trying to mask their failure by blaming lack of money, which by extension is blaming Hicks and Gillett.
They should stop moaning and focus 100% on winning the league. last season proved it is possible, even with alleged lack of funds, so Benitez and Torres don't really have a leg to stand on when they say money is a problem.
the real problem is lack of focus. How many times this season *already* have we have Benitez and the players moaning about stuff in the press?
*Benitez moaning about lack of fund/referee etc
*Benitez criticising Gerrard, Torres and Babel in public
*Babel criticising Benitez in public
*Riera criticising Benitez in public.
This is derailing the clu's focus from the ultimate goal, which should be 100% concentrated focus on winning the league.
I disagree - Liverpool were flying last season and were 7 points clear at the top at one stage. Liverpool only had to really dig in in the last three months of the season, after the lead had been thrown away.
ReplyDeleteThe point is Liverpool achieved all those great results (points 1-6 in the article( despite not having a bottomless pit of money. This proves that winning the league without lots of extra money is possible, does it not?
You are so negative. Even mancs dont slag our players,manager and fans like you and the annoying thing is your headlines get plastered all over newsnow as if they are a fair reflection of the majority of our supporters.
ReplyDeleteTHEY ARENT
It is YOU who should change the record!!!!!!!
My 12 year old has a more grown up attitude to football.
Well I guess we'll see won't we - now Chelsea have been banned from buying anyone they'll be on a similar playing field to Liverpool, so we'll see whether they are able to progress and move forward or whether they struggle when the other clubs are...
ReplyDeleteAh forget it, you';re clearly just a bell.
Jaimie, all you ever do is criticise!! That's all I am trying to say.
ReplyDeleteNo - all I do is analyse instead of just jumping on bandwagons and regurgitating the same old stories. As I said, this site is about critical realism, so what do you expect.
ReplyDeleteAnd I've written plenty of positive stuff, which everyone seems to conveniently forget ;)
Anyway, what is your view on this issue? Do you think money is the problem or not?
So refreshing to read someone telling it how it is - no more excuses!
ReplyDeleteOn another note why doesn't Rafa give the right footed Babel a run out on the right wing rather than flogging the dead horse of playing him on the left flank?
The whole point of Torres' argument is that Liverpool don't have huge resources, so winning the league is harder. Liverpool had a lead over United but it was having played more games due to United's World Club commitments. The lead was not "thrown away". The number of draws was our Achille's heel. Had we had a bottomless pit of cash, our bench would have had the personnel to turn draws into wins, or the first X1 a collection of mega stars to make subs a luxury.
ReplyDeleteNo-one at the club is saying we 'can't' compete without money, just that it is more difficult - which is completely true.
ReplyDeleteIMO the continuing public statements are there to push the owners into stumping up more cash - something they promised to do but so far haven't.
I accept your view, but again I have to disagree. Liverpool proved last season that you do't need huge resources to win the league. Yes, the 11 draws in the league lost us the league, but do you really think having more cash would be a magic solution?
ReplyDeleteWhoever else was bought, Benitez would probably still play them in the wrong position/drop them after scoring/come up with defensive formations etc.
Everyone always goes on about how we have the best:
Goalkeeper
Defensive Mid
Midfielder
Striker
in the world (!) Well, with 4 of the best players in the world in our team, why do we need more megastars?
The proof is in the pudding: Liverpool finished second last season despite:
* Gerrard and Torres being injured alot
* G+T only starting 14 games together
* Despite United/Chelsea's superior spending power
And despite the alleged lack of spending, we still:
* Scorerd the most goals
* had the fewest defeats
The only think that stopped us winning the league was two draws against Stoke.
How can an incompetent like Benitez "Whoever else was bought, Benitez would probably still play them in the wrong position/drop them after scoring/come up with defensive formations etc" possibly get a side to second place, just 4 points behind the 'world's best' Ferguson with his massive financial backing? Luck? Perhaps hard work, excellent tactics?
ReplyDeleteI didn't suggest Benitez is incompetent; he has sone fine qualities as a Manager. The last three months of last season was so effective because Benitez and the team just focused on football and stopped all the blamming to the press at every opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI pretty much agree with most of what you said on this money issue. It's tiresome. Arsenal and United have recouped more in sales, so we're outspent them two. Chelsea have been conservative in their spending, and are now banned from transfers. Man City and Spurs are the big spenders, but can't (yet) be counted as our direct rivals. Yes as a club we need to change the record and ditch the poor me attitude. But then isn't that Liverpool as a city full stop!! P.S. I am a born and bred scouser!
ReplyDeleteYou state that Liverpool proved last season that you do't (sic) need huge resources to win the league, but how can something be proven if it never came to pass?
ReplyDeleteWe didn't win the league, so have only 'proved' that you don't need huge resources to get to 2nd place within four points of the league.
Maybe addiitonal resources, huge, small or otherwise is exactly what was needed.
Let's be honest, neither you or I know the answer to this. Pure conjecture.
From what they tell me,what Torres and Rafa are doing is called "Managing Expectations"... Liverpool always has performed well when we are dubbed the underdogs... Not that I approve of these tactics entirely, it's not necessarily some insidious way of copping out as you suggest, Jaimie...
ReplyDeleteAnd about those 11 draws last season (haven't we heard enough about them?), as frustrating as it was, you seem to forget that 38 matches make the whole season, and bulk of the 86 points came from the other 27 matches... Moreover, Drawing that many matches drove us to a point where we had nothing to lose and the result was some enjoyable attacking football... so, here's hoping that losing 2 matches so early on spurs us to be more adventurous (something that has been talked about by Reina, I think).
There has been a good show of solidarity by Reina, Johnson, Benayoun, etc who all seem to think that despite the poor start and lack of funds, we are serious about our campaign. You seem to have conviniently forgotten that...
And nobody has been more vocal about his faith in Liverpool than Torres in a transfer period filled with teams like Barca and Real trying to paw our players. So, hands off Torres :-P
From what they tell me,what Torres and Rafa are doing is called "Managing Expectations"... Liverpool always has performed well when we are dubbed the underdogs... Not that I approve of these tactics entirely, it's not necessarily some insidious way of copping out as you suggest, Jaimie...
ReplyDeleteAnd about those 11 draws last season (haven't we heard enough about them?), as frustrating as it was, you seem to forget that 38 matches make the whole season, and bulk of the 86 points came from the other 27 matches... Moreover, Drawing that many matches drove us to a point where we had nothing to lose and the result was some enjoyable attacking football... so, here's hoping that losing 2 matches so early on spurs us to be more adventurous (something that has been talked about by Reina, I think).
There has been a good show of solidarity by Reina, Johnson, Benayoun, etc who all seem to think that despite the poor start and lack of funds, we are serious about our campaign. You seem to have conviniently forgotten that...
And nobody has been more vocal about his faith in Liverpool than Torres in a transfer period filled with teams like Barca and Real trying to paw our players. So, hands off Torres :-P
Yes, you're right - it is pure conjecture. However, given the club's stats from last season (Goals scored/number of defeats etc), it is at least reasonable to suggest that Liverpool were capable of winning the league, especially when the overall points total would've been enough to win the league in previous seasons.
ReplyDeleteAnd it also cannot be denied that if Liverpool had convereted a mere two draws into wins we would be champions (on goal difference) now.
You are an utter disgrace Kanwanker. You are no Liverpool fan that's for sure. Constantly putting the club, staff and fans down. Write something constructive instead of destructive for a change. You are like a very tedious broken record with an anti-Liverpool agenda. Your articles are poorly written, poorly researched and you confuse your personal (and always wrong) opinion with fact. All I know is True Liverpool fans (not you) dislike you and this rancid website immensely. You won't be here in a year thank god.
ReplyDeleteStop the press! <span><span>Jaimie Kanwar in a negative article about Liverpool FC shocker!
ReplyDelete</span></span>
Stop the press! Matty in pointless, cliched comment shocker!
ReplyDeleteStop the press! Matty in pointless, cliched comment shocker! :-P
ReplyDeleteNo one can deny that money is obviously a massive advantage. The so called experts in the media constantly go on about our comparative lack of strength in depth withour acknowledging the advantage that Man U and Chelsea have had in the transfer market. Having said that this cannot be continually used as an excuse by Rafa. If money is everything then we may as well not bother trying. The fact is that only Real Madrid in Spain, Man U, man City and Chelsea have this advantage in the whole of europe, thats four teams. We can stack up with pretty much anyone else and Rafa showed in Spain whats possible and our performances last year showed the same here. It simply takes longer to assemble a competitive squad without huge sums of money. Rafa also continually contradicts himself on the matter when claiming that teams like Spurs, Villa, Everton (last couple of seasons) are our rivals for the CL spots and they have not spent the money we have. Constant excuses whether valid or not.
ReplyDeleteDebuking the myth: <span>"Benitez has had PLENTY of money to spend in the last 5 years."</span>
ReplyDeleteBenitez's net spend is 83 mil till last transfer window.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6506040.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
Assuming he balanced his spending this year it makes about 14mil per summer transfer window.
Call it what you like, but it's not PLENTY.
If you consider our squad in 2004 (can you name a single player capable bringing 10+ league gols per season on regular basis? I can name min 2-3 in any our rivals squad) you have to give credit to Benitez: he did really well with limited resources. Of course he coud do better - but not much better. Real life is not a Championship Manager where you KNOW which players will do well.
My respect for Benitez is getting deeper when I look closer at top4 squads for 2003/2004.
Liverpool:
<!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } -->
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Jurek Dudek, Chris Kirkland, Stephane Henchoz, Steve Finnan, Djimi Traore, Sami Hyypia, Jamie Carragher, Dietmar Hamann, John Arne Riise, Danny Murphy, Bruno Cheyrou, Steven Gerrard, Igor Biscan, Vladimir Smicer, Michael Owen, El Hadji Diouf, Anthony Le Tallec, Milan Baros, Florent Sinama Pongolle, Harry Kewell, Emile Heskey, Richie Partridge, Cisse
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">All the players apart of Dudek, Hyppia, Carragher and Gerrard in few years time finished in small clubs due to lack of ability - if they were top4 standard surely some of them would find jobs in good teams, wouldnt they? (I discard Owen - he never was Benitez player) Dudek is a sub so we can exclude him as well. It is debatable if Roma is a small club but you get my point anyway, dont you?
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">So we have had 3 top4 standard players. (Gerrard world class player in making, Hyppia - world class and Carra top4 standard player)
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Lets look at MU squad:
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } -->
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Fabien Barthez, Tim Howard, Rio Ferdinand, Philip Neville, John O'Shea, Mikael Silvestre, Gary Neville, Wesley Brown, Quinton Fortune, Nicky Butt, Kleberson, Darren Fletcher, Eric Djemba-Djemba, Roy Keane, Kieran Richardson, Danny Pugh, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Diego Forlan, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer,
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">What we have?
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">At least 5 world class players (Ferdinand, Scholes, Keane, Giggs, RvN)and at least 4 top4 players (Philip Neville, Mikael Silvestre, Gary Neville, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer)
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">+ stars in making: Ronaldo, Brown
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Tell me Jaimie, tell me honestly: how much more than MU would you need to invest in Liverpool to get power parity with MU?
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">In my opinion the difference is about 100 - 120 mil.
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Look at Arsenal and Chelsea squads at the time: the difference is exactly the same. Theirs teams were nearly ready when we started to build ours.
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The Benitez's task was even harder: he couldnt [...]
well he's doing fine cause some of Rafa's mistakes making screaming out loud,
ReplyDeletebut to most of funs Rafa is god, he didn't come 2nd last year , he lost the league
that's the true, open your eyes after 5 years repeating story with him!
Samsamire - why do you and everyone always focus so much on net spend?! It is irrelevant. Benitez has not spent just 14m a season - he has spent 192m in 5 years,
ReplyDeleteBefore we even consider money recouped, the fact is Benitez has spent 192m. How he spent this money is what we should be looking at.
Just because he made money back doesn't change the fact that lots of the 192m was wasted:
20m on Keane
11m on Babel
8m on Dossena
6.3m on Morientes
2m on Josemi
3.5 m on Gonzalez
1m on Carson + Barragan
2m on Palletta
6.7m on Pennant
1.5m on Leto
6m on Craig Bellamy
Total - Approx 68m
Just imagine if that money had been spent more wisely.
Just because a manager rectifies a mistake after the fact doesn't mean the oiriginal mistake is negated.
People seem to miss deliberately ignore) tthe following: what might have been had the money been spent wisely; how might Liverpool's pursuit of trophies have been enhanced if the right players had been bought.
Take Summer 2008 for example. What might have been if the Keane 20m had been spent on a right-winger/link man? Could such a purchases have helped us gain the extra 5 points that would've meant the title? Possibly.
The net spend argument is just a way to muddy the waters and distract people from the real issue, i.e. how Benitez actually spent the money he had.
Samsamire - why do you and everyone always focus so much on net spend?! It is irrelevant. Benitez has not spent just 14m a season - he has spent 192m in 5 years,
ReplyDeleteBefore we even consider money recouped, the fact is Benitez has spent 192m. How he spent this money is what we should be looking at.
Just because he made money back doesn't change the fact that lots of the 192m was wasted:
20m on Keane
11m on Babel
8m on Dossena
6.3m on Morientes
2m on Josemi
3.5 m on Gonzalez
1m on Carson + Barragan
2m on Palletta
6.7m on Pennant
1.5m on Leto
6m on Craig Bellamy
Total - Approx 68m
Just imagine if that money had been spent more wisely.
Just because a manager rectifies a mistake after the fact doesn't mean the oiriginal mistake is negated.
People seem to deliberately ignore the following: what might have been had the money been spent wisely; how might Liverpool's pursuit of trophies have been enhanced if the right players had been bought.
Take Summer 2008 for example. What might have been if the Keane 20m had been spent on a right-winger/link man? Could such a purchase have helped us gain the extra 5 points that would've meant the title? Possibly.
The net spend argument is just a way to muddy the waters and distract people from the real issue, i.e. how Benitez actually spent the money he had.
Yes, he's made some good purchases, but he has bought a lot of duf players as well, wasting tens of millions in the process.
name one team that has won the prem that has not spent or been able to spend a wad of cash. a good team with a good manager will always be there or there about. having cash means you can strengthen your weaker positions with quality when needed. last season, if we would have had the cash, we could have bought a quality player that might have made the difference.
ReplyDeleteFor the love of god =-X ;)
ReplyDeleteBenitez HAS had lots of money to spend!!
Benitez COULD have strengthened the club's weaker positions, but he spent the money he had unwisely!
11m on Ryan Babel? Waste.
20m on Robbie Keane? Waste
8m Andrea Dossena? Waste
That's 39m right there. If Benitez had spent the money properly at the time and bought the right players, it could have made a difference.
"why do you and everyone always focus so much on net spend?! "
ReplyDeleteDont understand? Let me expalin:
Someone bought a house for 100 000. Few years later he sold the house (to make things simpler for 100 000 as well) and bought a house for 200 000. Few years later he sold the house and bought a new one for 300 000. Then decided to sell it and buy a villa for 500 000.
How much did he spend on his villa?
You say: 1 100 000. I say 500 000.
Only net spent shows the resources a manager had. When you compare Pool's squad to rivals squad you have a full picture. You dont want to see and thats your problem with Rafa.
I told you: he could do better on the transfer market. He made mistakes. Who didnt? But overall he did very well with limited resources he was given and very limited team he herited.
Arsenal's financial power?!
ReplyDeleteThat's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!
the money spent on babel has not yet be proven to be a waste of cash yet, he has the talent to come good, don't know if that will happen but it is to early to be called a waste of cash. we don't know the full story with keane so the jury is out there. dossena is no good at left back, but he is good going forward and as a third string left winger he might surprise a lot of people, he knows where the goal is
ReplyDeleteYour net spend theory doesn't make any sense. You state:
ReplyDeleteOnly net spent shows the resources a manager had
Er, how exactly? Benitez spent 28m on Keane and Dossena. His financial resources were pretty good, I'd say, wouldn't you? How does the fact that Keane was sold 6 months later have any bearing on the original purchase?
The original 20m mistake is STILL a mistake!
For the 6 months Keane was at Liverpool, the club missed the services of someone who could have made a Torres-like impact. That impact could've made all the difference to our league campaign.
Comparing Rafa's spending to our rivals is not relevant. So what if Man U/Chelsea have more more money or a bigger net spend; it's what you do with the money you DO have the matters.
The bottom line is Benitez has spent 192m in 5 years, which amounts to almost 40m a season. Is that not an acceptable amount of money to give a manager?
With your theory, the manager is never accountable for transfer mistakes! As long as he makes some money back, all is forgiven.
So, using your logic:
* Benitez breaks LFC's tranfer record by spending 35m on player X.
* Player X is a complete flop, and after one year Benitiez sells him for 28m.
YOUR VIEW: It's okay, we got 28m back, thus the player only cost us 7m. (Inaccurate anyway because you're not including signing on fee/salary and add-ons).
MY VIEW: 35m wasted. Just imagine if that money had been spent on a player/players who enhanced the team and had an impact.
Wasted money is still wasted money, however you choose to dress it up.
Net spend is a ridiculous theory, and one that is used to absolve managers of responsibility.
Thanks for the patronising response ;-)
ReplyDeleteYour net spend theory doesn't make any sense. You state:
Only net spent shows the resources a manager had
Er, how exactly? Benitez spent 28m on Keane and Dossena. His financial resources were pretty good, I'd say, wouldn't you? How does the fact that Keane was sold 6 months later have any bearing on the original purchase?
The original 20m mistake is STILL a mistake!
For the 6 months Keane was at Liverpool, the club missed the services of someone who could have made a Torres-like impact. That impact could've made all the difference to our league campaign.
Comparing Rafa's spending to our rivals is not relevant. So what if Man U/Chelsea have more more money or a bigger net spend; it's what you do with the money you DO have the matters.
The bottom line is Benitez has spent 192m in 5 years, which amounts to almost 40m a season. Is that not an acceptable amount of money to give a manager?
With your theory, the manager is never accountable for transfer mistakes! As long as he makes some money back, all is forgiven.
So, using your logic:
* Benitez breaks LFC's tranfer record by spending 35m on player X.
* Player X is a complete flop, and after one year Benitiez sells him for 28m.
YOUR VIEW: It's okay, we got 28m back, thus the player only cost us 7m. (Inaccurate anyway because you're not including signing on fee/salary and add-ons).
MY VIEW: 35m wasted. Just imagine if that money had been spent on a player/players who enhanced the team and had an impact.
Wasted money is still wasted money, however you choose to dress it up.
Net spend is a ridiculous theory, and one that is used to absolve managers of responsibility.
Talk...talk...talk.....but all that counts is how the TEAM play together....and as a team.The players have plenty of quality and they and Benitez would do better to simply concentrate on their performances, individually and collectively. Comments and performances this Seasons show an unsupportable confidence. You can talk up your abilities all you want but all that matters is the 'Team performance'. Likewise you can talk down expectations......but best to say little and work hard. Too much talk and not enough performance is the verdict so far this Season.
ReplyDeleteNo Jaimie, 20 mil spent on Keane is not a waste, The waste is difference between what we payed and what we have got for him.
ReplyDeleteThe waste is about 7mil.
"he spent the money he had unwisely! "
If someone makes 200mil turnover, he is entitled to some mistakes dont you think so? Or maybe you expect every single penny to be invested and bring profit?
So you insist the villa costed 1 100 000?
ReplyDeleteYes or not?
The money wasted on players you refer to can only be considered a waste in hindsight. People were excited when we got babel and Keane, no one expected them to under perform the way they have/did. You talk about money being better spent on a quality wide/link player for instance, Babel had the potential to be that player. If he fulfilled his potential he would be considered a snip at 11 mil and we'd be saying what a great buy Rafa. You could argue that its then Rafas fault for not developing him but most of the responsiblity has to be taken by the player. All managers but flops, Mourinho had 21mil on wright-philips, fergie spent 20plus mil on Veron, the difference is that they can afford to make these errors more frequently and take a huge loss as theres pleny more cash to buy others. Rafa has to be far more careful and make money back when he does move these flops on. No one can deny that if he did have that 20mil extra this summer to spend he would have brought in a david silva type player and he could make all the difference.
ReplyDeleteIt's the frequency of your negative articles. Lighten up a bit. If anyone has a defeatist attitude it's you and the content of this blog. Kopites are the proudest supporters, however, it's clear you feel hard done by. You should follow a mid-table club or worse still, a club from the lower divisions.
ReplyDelete"jumping on bandwagons and regurgitating the same old stories." Is precisely what you've done here! You haven't added anything new, you're simply perpetuating the same words/statements. I'm guessing you'll be reported to each and everyone of the news syndicates listed in your banner before long and subsequently demoted.
ReplyDeleteDemoted? For what? Wishful thinking there I'm afraid. Lots of people have tried and failed to have this site censored; join them if you wish ;-)
ReplyDeleteAnd no other site has taken the view I have of Torres' comments. I've added something new in that I've suggested that Torres's publicly defeatist attitude is not conducive to a title winning mentality. Am I wrong?
Lighten up a bit? I regularly put humourous articles on the site. And if you were being fair, you would see hat i also put lots of positive articles on the site too.
ReplyDeleteHey, it's not about having anything censored, it's about maintaining "quality" news feeds that contain for the most part original work, not a constant medley of well-worn or even non-topics like this one. Write what you want, that's not my point at all.
ReplyDeleteNo-other site has taken that view of Torres because it's plain weird and short-sighted. I bet he gets asked about the likes of Chelsea and City at every other interview. How boring. Worse still you've tried to read between the lines.
If you think interviews are a source of inspiration for the rest of the players, or they affect mentality, you're even further from reality than I first thought.
Football is a sport, it's not 'Big Brother'.
Is the writer of this article American by any chance?
ReplyDelete"Managing Expectations"
ReplyDeleteGood point.
"And about those 11 draws last season (haven't we heard enough about them?)"
We still dont realise Unvincible Arsenal had 12 draws playing very offensive football.
Some people feel better when they find someone/something to blame.
Could you point me to them?
ReplyDeleteReally, your blog shows up on the news feed I use with a backwards spin on any old topic. It's tiresome. I'm taking it for-granted your're a Liverpool supporter, because I haven't come across any others that moan so much.
Do you eat prawn sandwiches?
On the topic of censorship, you remove messages. Fact.
ReplyDeleteJaimie
ReplyDeleteI don't think anybody would deny we had a superb season last year, and yes, the fact that we almost clinched the top spot shows what may be achieved without the huge financial might of Chelsea, United etc.
But... we didnt win the league. We came closer than we have done in many years, but one great season in the league does not prove anything is possible without money. The season before we didnt compete with a similar team, so what did this prove?
Had we stayed in the champions league, FA/Carling cup, would our squad have all performed so well or stayed fit for those exciting last months? Very doubtful. We do have some fantastic players in our squad that rafa has brought in, but we certainly dont have the strength and depth to compete in 4 competitions. This is what is difficult for Benitez, and I believe his comments and those of Torres are pretty valid, and certainly arent a cop out as you say. Last season proved we had a great season on 'relatively' limited resources. Of course we have spent money or we wouldnt have stayed in the top four, and yes in hindsight some of this money could have been spent better, but who knew that Keane, Babel etc wouldnt work out?
Ferguson has spent a great deal of money on Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson (hardly sucess stories), but because he could also buy Berbatov & Tevez to bring off the bench in many cases and win him games, these mistakes are overlooked. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market but Rafa has also made some fantastic purchases (Alonso, Benayoun, Torres, Masch, Johnson), now if we could just buy quality throughout the whole squad Im sure we could challenge for all competitions.
I think its great that you write these articles as critcal realism for fans in my opinion. I just dont agree with you on this one mate
I agree with you on this one Jamie. When Benitez first arrived he made a big play on the fact that he had won the Spanish league against the two "Giants" of La Liga with very little money. Now he's on a crusade and seems to bully his players into supporting him.
ReplyDeleteHe also allegedly employs a guy that scours the media looking out for bad press that might affect his image.
That said Babel is shite.
i dont agree with u at all... if we did have the funds the league would be guarenteed to us seeing what we can do now with barely any funds at all.. the only reason we came so clsoe last year is cus we have a great manager in the form if rafa.. there isnt any other manager out there that coulda done what he did with the funds rafa gets..
ReplyDelete<div class="js-singleCommentHeader">
ReplyDelete<div style="float: left;"><span style="cursor: pointer;">Jaimie Kanwar</span>. You are a knob! I'm not reading your crap anymore...
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Jaimie Kanwar. You are a knob... I'm not reading your crap anymore! Get a life!
ReplyDeleteNo. I am British.
ReplyDeleteJaimie!
ReplyDeleteYou must decide
"Rafa spend PLENTY of money"
or
"This proves that winning the league without lots of extra money is possible, does it not?"
You cant stick to both cos they contradict each other.
:)
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
ReplyDeleteFor the period in which a non-performaing player is at a club, the money is (IMO) wasted. Thus, for the six months Robbie Keane was at the club, Liverpool wasted 20m. And when I say 'waste' of money, I'm not just referring to the transfer fee, I'm referring to the fact that we missed out on spending the 20m on a player who WOULD perform and enhance the team. The waste here is missing out on a superior player. Example: the 20m was spent on, say, Klass Jan Huntelaar instead of Keane. Huntelaar bangs in 20 goals in his first season, with the extra goals propelling turning draws into wins and proppelling Liverpool to the title. This is the kind of scenario we missed out on; this is the kind of eventuality that was 'wasted' because Benitez bought the wrong player.
I'm not saying that Huntelaar (or someone else) would've been a success, but it's possible.
I wasn't excited by the signings of Keane or Babel at the time. In fact, I wrote an article three months before the Keane signing arguing that buying a 20m+ striker whilst our preferred formation was 4231, was a mistake. I also thought 11m for 20 year old Babel was a massively inflated price.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Babel had potential but like so may young players before and since, he has not been allowed to develop his potential for a variety of reasons.
Completely agree, Casey. Every day we're seeing Liverpool player talking in the press. Dirk Kuyt has to be the worst offender. Is he Liverpool's official spokesperson now or something as it seems every 5 minutes there's another Dirk Kuyt quote doing the rounds.
ReplyDeleteI wish the players and the manager would just zip it and focus on doing their talking on the pitch.
That's fine :-) You're entitled to your opinon and I don't expect people to just agree with me. You're right - one great season doesn't prove anything can be achieved without lots of money. I would say this though - if our squad is so lacking i strength and depth, how come the most successful part of last season was the final 3 months, the period where 0 tradionally - squad depth and strength is all important. Surely if our squad was weak in comparison to Man U/Chelsea, we would've faded in the final 3 months, not gotten stronger...?
ReplyDelete"He also allegedly employs a guy that scours the media looking out for bad press that might affect his image."
ReplyDeleteI bet that's a very lucrative avenue to explore. Imagine a world where media stuck to the facts?
"We'll have to agree to disagree on this point."
ReplyDeleteNo we dont have to. Just give me last chance. If you stick to your opinion I will give up – probably for good.
You call money spend on a flop as a waste. Ok. How do you call money recuperated from selling a flop?
You call money spend on a flop as a waste. So we wasted 20 mil on Keane. Ok. But we sold him for 12 and used this money more purposeful e.g. on extending Torres contract or buying Johnson. Is extending Torres contract or buying Johnson a waste as well? The same money we spend on Keane we recuperated and spend on the Torres's contract. You cant use something you wasted. If you wasted some money on girls you cant use them on beer. And vice-versa. So maybe the money on Keane weren't wasted?
They were wrongly allocated. I agree – but not wasted. See the difference?
I even can help you and tell what Rafa wasted wrongly allocating his resources. Ok it was a bit of money, but more significantly he lost some time. Time to build the team. This is an unrecovable lose.
Look Jaimie. You cant understand why many – quite reasonably people – stick to net spend as more relevant than gross spend. I can explain you very easy.
In 2004 Rafa was given following resources:
The team (I assume I dont need to convince you it was weakest top4 team and worth much less than the rivals): worth X
The extra money: 8mil.
His resources were X+8mil.
Rafa used the resources: sold some players and bought some players.
2005. Rafa was given following resources:
The team (which was X + 8 mil)
Money: 15 mil.
His resources were X+8mil + 15mil
Rafa used the resources: sold some players and bought some players.
2006. Rafa was given following resources:
The team: (which was X+ 8mil +15 mil)
Money: 17 mil.
Rafa used the resources: sold some players bought some players.
Lest finish here.
In 2006 Rafa has resources: team worth X in 2004 + 40mil.
As you see to estimate Rafa resources we don't need his turnover: net spend is enough.
If you still dont udnderstand the idea let me remind a question you very conveniently overlooked.
“Someone bought a house for 100 000. Few years later he sold the house (to make things simpler for 100 000 as well) and bought a house for 200 000. Few years later he sold the house and bought a new one for 300 000. Then decided to sell it and buy a villa for 500 000.
How much did he spend on his villa?”
You say: 1 100 000. I say 500 000.
I hope you see my point now, dont you?
J - 2 points
ReplyDeletePoint 1: re. Gross vs. Net spending and your Keane example. The only waste is 1) The £7m* of cash (or whatever it comes to) and 2) the OPPORTUNITY to use that cash. The way you describe it - or who I and probably others read it - is that you are saying that £20m is down the tubes for good.
Point 2: The most effective way to understand the record of someone's transfer is to look at the net spending* and the number of points gained/lost in the following season. This is a possible way measure the manner in which the resources - current assets (squad) and new assets (transfer money) - are managed to improve the team relative to where they were. I would hypothesise that the lower your starting the points the less it takes to make an improving. Conversely, you will see the teams higher up the league needing to spend more to make smaller incremental improvements. At the extreme, Man Utd spend a lot of money to 'stay still' (in league points terms).
So in many ways, Torres, Benitez and others do have a valid point. You need financial strength to maintain and keep a squad strong.
* my understanding is that we re-couped most of the transfer fee. It was £12m at the time and then a further £6 at the end of the season.
Hi Jaimie
ReplyDeleteMe again (guest from above)
'how come the most successful part of last season was the final 3 months, the period where 0 tradionally - squad depth and strength is all important. Surely if our squad was weak in comparison to Man U/Chelsea, we would've faded in the final 3 months, not gotten stronger...?'
As I mention because we excited the League Cup in 2008, FA cup in Feb 09 and Champions League in April 09. Now I know we were still playing some Champions League football during our strong period (Real Madrid kicked it all off) but we may not have sustained our great form in the league had we been in Europe. This is all speculation, who knows what would have happened, but going for one competition, and the one we all want so badly, has got to aid a smaller squad.
Had we had a stronger squad we may have been able to turn some of those draws in December and January into wins....
I wonder what sort of team/squad Houllier, Evans, Moyes, or Wenger would have if they had an average of £50m a year to spend. Benitez has had the backing, unfortunately most of it is wasted on quantity rather than quality.
ReplyDeleteFar too many players bought for the first team squad to get enough games to improve themselves never mind improve the team.
Exactly. Benitez has had the money but he has wasted a lot of it on squad fillers and dross.
ReplyDeletelack of funds???
ReplyDelete£240 million is lack of funds????
my word I need to talk to my manager to ask for a raise! And please, enough of the net spend, it means little unless you are in the black every single season, we are not, Liverpools net spend is still poor even taking into account the last 2 seasons. His net spend is still minus £100m and he's never going to make that back even if he sold Torres for £50m.
"I wonder what sort of team/squad Houllier, Evans, Moyes, or Wenger would have if they had an average of £50m a year to spend."
ReplyDeleteIts really funny how you are missing the point.
But all right. Lets use imagination. Actually Moyes is in a very similar situation as we where in 2004.
Lets imagine he sold all his players for 150 mil (which is too much but let it be) and was asked to buy a new squad. The owner would give him additionaly 15 mil a year. How strong would be Everton first year? I believe they would be weaker than they are. No one sane would expect them to be world beaters despite spending 165 mil one year. Of course some people would say: Moyes spend 165 mil one year he should deliver! Would you be among them?
Rafa has had to change all his squad but 3 players.
Torres "It [Winning the league] is still very difficult when you analyse the financial power of Chelsea, United and Arsenal with the money they can spend."
ReplyDeleteWhat?!
Arsene Wenger's net spend on player transfers since he joined Arsenal is £219,000 per season. Arsenal have actually made a net gain on player transfers of £34.45m since they moved to Ashburton Grove.
Tell Benitez he had £219,000 net per season and see how he got on.
Good point.
ReplyDeleteArsenal should never be on the list :-)
And Liverpool shouldn't be on this one. List of Premier League Champions.
ReplyDeleteAnd we are not, are we? Who says we won this trophy? Premier League is a relatively new new competition founded just after our greates years. Sometimes when I think about it I'm more favorable for conspiracy theorists :-)
ReplyDeleteJaime you dink!
ReplyDeleteHow can can you say comparing Rafa's spending to our rivals is not relevant? To prove whether a manager is good or bad with regards to transfers, you need a benchmark. And of course to compare to managers, the data set has to the same, other than that how to compare?
So before flying of your mouth saying rafa this and rafa that, why don't you create a benchmark (of course it has to made from the grand daddy of all, Alex Ferguson).
Instructions:
1) You need to consider the first 5 years of transfer fees and the details of the purchase (player) of Fergie.
2) Factor in the inflation. (5m then may be 30 mil now?)
3) Make a table of comparison
4) Do the analysis
5) Do a significant test to determine if there are really any significant differences among the two managers
6) Make a conclusion
Without doing all of this, you are just shouting your mouth off like rotormouth and blasting rafa all the time! So much for objective criticism I would say, as you so often seem to self-promote yourself.
*To make this as accurate as possible you need to compare the to Wenger and Mourinho's dabbles in transfers as well. Do this, then I swear I'll never comment on your articles again for you would have earned my utmost respect.
So, please stop the nonsense that you are spewting out and do something that brings clarity into your cluttered mind.
I have to agree to this. Refer back what happened to Valencia in the immediate season after Rafa left? With the same team, they struggled like a lower rung team!
ReplyDeleteGive the man full backing which he's has never received. All the other managers (Fergie, Wenger, Mourinho) were able to do their shopping as they willed when they began.
From my observation only Rafa has had to work within a budget every year since his first day! And this is a great handicap when he has to fight other teams who have been well established. Except Chealsea but didn't they spend like150m in Jose's first season?
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention about Arsenal. I'm taking about the first 5 years of Wenger's tenure. Make a proper analysis of Wenger's transfer's during that period and factor in the inflation, before you guys start shooting off about how Wenger has not spent at all.
ReplyDelete