Over the last few days, Roy Hodgson's rabid detractors have been joyfully disseminationg a so-called 'fact' about his away record in English football. As I will illustrate, this 'fact' is actually deliberate misinformation being spread as part of the ongoing professional and personal denigration of Liverpool FC's manager.
The sad truth is that some fans are so desperate to see Hodgson fail that they have now resorted to lying about the man. Yes, some fans evidently think it's right to lie and/or spread misinformation about a manager of Liverpool FC.
What makes it worse is the the brainwashed sheep who just believe anything they read as long as it fits in with their opinion and expectation. In this case, someone posted some poorly research figures about Hodgson on Twitter; it was then picked up and spat out across the net by thousands of Liverpool fans, none of whom had the capacity to *think* critically about what they were reading.
Why would they, though? Some people don't care about the truth - as long as it fits in with what they want to hear it will be accepted without question.
THE LIE
On the 14th November, the following was posted on Twitter:
It was then (predictably) retweeted by Paul Tomkins:
This nonsense was then retweeted endlessly on Twitter, and is now being disseminated across the net as fact.
THE TRUTH
The figures retweeted by Paul Tomkins are completely inaccurate. Why would he (and other Liverpool fans) not bother to check if the figures were true? Is this not a gross lack of fairness? Is this not evidence of the agenda against Hodgson in full swing? Failing to check the figure and just passing them off as fact to make Hodgson look bad is, as I've stated before, a traitorous betrayal of a Liverpool Manager. The real figures are below:
* The figures are independently verifiable, so if anyone wants to double check then please go ahead.
* Even if we only look at league games, the '13 wins in 105 games figures' is wrong.
* Hodgson has only spent 14% of his managerial career in English football (5 years out 34), which makes a mockery of the (false) assertion that many fans make about him having 'vast experience' of the English top flight.
* I am not arguing that Hodgson's away record is great; in isolation, it isn't. However, Having said that, his record *is* comparable to teams similar to those Hodgson has managed in England (Liverpool aside). If you're going to put Hodgson's away record in context, you have to compare it to teams like Blackburn, Fulham and Bristol City, not Liverpool, United and Arsenal.
* Re Liverpool: Hodgson's away record so far at Liverpool is almost the same as Benitez's and Houllier's in their first seasons.
* This article is not about Hodgson's away record per se - it is about highlighting how fans lie and twist the facts to serve their agenda. I support the radical principle of supporting ANY Liverpool manager in their first 4-6 months in the job (!) How out of order is that?! Support a Liverpool manager for more than 4 months in their first season?! I must be completely out of my mind.
So many people have contacted me and/or left comments over last few days triumphantly spouting the '13 wins in 105 games' lie. They should be ashamed for not having the critical faculty and decency to look at things fairly.
People criticise me for attacking Liverpool fans but how can I not when this kind of stuff goes on? Since when do so-called 'fans' have the right to twist the facts and lie about a Liverpool Manager's record just to make it seem even worse?
Can it get any lower than that?
Please retweet this post or pass the information along so that we can stem the tide of lies. It is important that fans show that the rabid minority does not speak for the fair-minded majority.
EDIT: I have updated the table to include overall league and premier league breakdowns.
Jaimie Kanwar
The sad truth is that some fans are so desperate to see Hodgson fail that they have now resorted to lying about the man. Yes, some fans evidently think it's right to lie and/or spread misinformation about a manager of Liverpool FC.
What makes it worse is the the brainwashed sheep who just believe anything they read as long as it fits in with their opinion and expectation. In this case, someone posted some poorly research figures about Hodgson on Twitter; it was then picked up and spat out across the net by thousands of Liverpool fans, none of whom had the capacity to *think* critically about what they were reading.
Why would they, though? Some people don't care about the truth - as long as it fits in with what they want to hear it will be accepted without question.
THE LIE
On the 14th November, the following was posted on Twitter:
It was then (predictably) retweeted by Paul Tomkins:
This nonsense was then retweeted endlessly on Twitter, and is now being disseminated across the net as fact.
THE TRUTH
The figures retweeted by Paul Tomkins are completely inaccurate. Why would he (and other Liverpool fans) not bother to check if the figures were true? Is this not a gross lack of fairness? Is this not evidence of the agenda against Hodgson in full swing? Failing to check the figure and just passing them off as fact to make Hodgson look bad is, as I've stated before, a traitorous betrayal of a Liverpool Manager. The real figures are below:
* The figures are independently verifiable, so if anyone wants to double check then please go ahead.
* Even if we only look at league games, the '13 wins in 105 games figures' is wrong.
* Hodgson has only spent 14% of his managerial career in English football (5 years out 34), which makes a mockery of the (false) assertion that many fans make about him having 'vast experience' of the English top flight.
* I am not arguing that Hodgson's away record is great; in isolation, it isn't. However, Having said that, his record *is* comparable to teams similar to those Hodgson has managed in England (Liverpool aside). If you're going to put Hodgson's away record in context, you have to compare it to teams like Blackburn, Fulham and Bristol City, not Liverpool, United and Arsenal.
* Re Liverpool: Hodgson's away record so far at Liverpool is almost the same as Benitez's and Houllier's in their first seasons.
* This article is not about Hodgson's away record per se - it is about highlighting how fans lie and twist the facts to serve their agenda. I support the radical principle of supporting ANY Liverpool manager in their first 4-6 months in the job (!) How out of order is that?! Support a Liverpool manager for more than 4 months in their first season?! I must be completely out of my mind.
So many people have contacted me and/or left comments over last few days triumphantly spouting the '13 wins in 105 games' lie. They should be ashamed for not having the critical faculty and decency to look at things fairly.
People criticise me for attacking Liverpool fans but how can I not when this kind of stuff goes on? Since when do so-called 'fans' have the right to twist the facts and lie about a Liverpool Manager's record just to make it seem even worse?
Can it get any lower than that?
Please retweet this post or pass the information along so that we can stem the tide of lies. It is important that fans show that the rabid minority does not speak for the fair-minded majority.
EDIT: I have updated the table to include overall league and premier league breakdowns.
Jaimie Kanwar
any chance you could give a breakdown of this percentage per club?
ReplyDeleteHi Jaime,
ReplyDeleteSo the basis of the article is u arguing that Roy has won more then 13 games away from home, and your conclusion is that hes won 21% of games away from home.
So???
21% is not the record of a manager we should have at our club, he asked to be judged on 10 games, hes had them and the sad fact is that apart from the chelsea game weve never looked good all season.
i like many liverpool fans wanted to give roy a chance, and i wont be booing him on the terraces and i do hope things change, but i really dont see it happening.
We dont look good in any area, defensivly, keeping the ball, or attacking we just look like an average side right now - and before u say anything, 90% of this team finished second a year ago..so its not just the players are poor etc.
u say ur a liverpool fan, but all i ever read is u trying to pick a fight no matter what - arguing that roys history is really good and the papers are lying is one thing, arguing that they lied and his record is 21% is really clutching at straws
so did he win more than 13 away games or not? didn't he also get sacked at blackburn because they were holding the rest of the prem up? he's no better than rafa and rafa wasn't that good imo.
ReplyDeletelike i said before he's not going to be the man to steady the ship and he's definitely not going to be the man to take us forward. why waste our pay checks on him.
just like we need to clear the dead weight in the squad we also need to do so on the management side of things. when we got rid of rafa i thought that's what we were doing.
and by wins i'm talking league wins by the way
ReplyDeleteThis is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteThis blog, I mean.
Are you incapable of interpreting simple figures?
ReplyDeleteThe table above is his away record in all competitions. It clearly states he's won more than 13 games.
And why should we only look at league games?! because it fits your agenda?!
The original 105/13 games LIE is not just league games as Hodgson has not played that many league games in English football.
i'm focusing on the league because we currently sit 11th in it. if we win europe but finish 18th then guess what....we get relegated. you look at the competitions separately because they are unrelated. we want to get into champions league spots by may and how awesome hodgson does in europa doesn't concern me. if we didn't make it out of the group stages i would not care in the least as long as we were in the top 4 at the end of the year. do you honestly think that's where he will take us?
ReplyDeleteNo, the basis od the article is to expose the lies of one section of Liverpool fans, and set the record straight about Hodgson's away record. His actual record is irrelevant; what matters is the true facts are available.
ReplyDeleteSo his away record is almost the same as Benitez?
ReplyDeleteHmmm.. Funny.. Have'nt u been ranting on about how poor a manager Benitez is for the last couple of years?
If Benitez was poor, and Hodgsons stats are worse, that must make him quite shit?
It's not really a lie, it's slightly wrong if your stats are right - 24 wins isn't a great record either.
ReplyDeleteHow many league away games has he played and won?
ReplyDeleteWhy are you including bristol city. Include only premiership teams pls.
ReplyDeleteso what your saying 21% is roughly he wins 1 in 5 games away from home. Well lets all get the champagne on ice as i belive the prem title will be coming our way. I must say If your writing an article to defend Roy Hodgson, please dont use his track record to justify it as its useless just like him!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI consider myself capable of interpreting simple figures. But can you please tell me how many away Premier league games he has won, and in how many attempts?
ReplyDeleteThe facts are very interesting 24 wins n 113. Not exacly a record to be proud of and if you take away this season its 23 wins in 107 games (or something around about there).
ReplyDeleteIts interesting Jamie how you like to give more emphasis on the facts that prove your point and ignore the facts that dont (and please dont ask me to prove this because all you need to do is go back through all your posts and check my comments)
The issue the fans have with Hodgson which you tend to ignore is that firstly 23 wins in 107 away games highly an inspirational manager which shouldnt be our manager in the first place.
With Benetiz (please dont start I aint a benetiz fan just proving a point) in his first season when things were not going well the fans were not only judging him on that season but his previous seasons in spain winning two league titles and a uefa cup.
Hodgsons record has never been inspiring even before he came to liverpool and he doesnt do himself any favours over talking in the media.
When looking at someone's away record you look at EVERY game; that is the only fair way to do. And yes, I do think we will finish in the top 4. There are still 6 months of the season to go; if you weren't such a knee-jerker you'd be able to take a long-term view and try and see things in context.
ReplyDeleteSo its not 13 games but 24 out of 64 which means 40 games he either lost or drew, that is not that much of a difference if you ask me both are still very poor stats!
ReplyDeleteGo and do your own research. You only make exceptions like that because you're *still* desperate to find something negative to hold against Hodgson. The fact that so many fans have lied about his record doesn't seem to make any difference to to you.
ReplyDeletei do read your website alot jaimie and i do respect your views on alot of the facts and figures you put up on your site.
ReplyDeletei know alot of people will say yeah and not alot of difference between what you have reserached and what you have found.
i for one never wanted roy to be our manager but have supported him and the team through out the season but with the rubbish i have been watching it is hard not to say get roy out it is much easier with the players we have to attack teams then to try and make those players defend.
i have never understood why in all the crap that was happening that we employed a manager it was better to have someone come in on a caretaker basis until it was known if we was to have new owners or we were sticking with the old ones.
you said
I am not arguing that Hodgson's away record is great; in isolation, it isn't. However, Having said that, his record *is* comparable to teams similar to those Hodgson has managed in England (Liverpool aside). If you're going to put Hodgson's away record in context, you have to compare it to teams like Blackburn, Fulham and Bristol City, not Liverpool, United and Arsenal.
<span>
should we as liverpool compare ourselves to lesser clubs we should be comparing it to arsenal and united the problem is roy is a defensive coach which you need to be when you are the manager of blackburn, fullham and bristol city to get a result away from home.</span>
liverpool do not have to be ultra devensive away for home.
roy as to realise this is liverpool the biggest club he as managed and we expect better then to try and play like fulham,blackburn and bristol city
I didn't say it was. In the article, I specifically state it's not a great record. That's not the point though; fans have been passing off false figures asa fact. Why? Because they make Hodgson look bad.
ReplyDeleteHodgson's away record compared to similar teams he has managed is comparable. That is what matters.
The original LIE stated '105 games in English football'; his time at Bristol City was part of a stint in English football, was it not?
ReplyDeleteAgain, you're just another person who will keep trying to make exceptions so that you can make the manager look bad.
No, I wrote this article to refute the lies being spread. His away record is irrelevant to the overall point, which is fans spreading lies about the manager.
ReplyDeleteI have not lied. I just want to know the excact numbers. Of course I can find them myself, but why want you tell? Doesn't it fit your agenda?
ReplyDeleteI really can't be bothered checking past history stats as evidenced by my own eyes the tactics set out by Roy lead credence to the 105-13 conjecture. Perhaps the discrepancy between the two sets of figures relate to the first pertains to top level and you have included Bristol City, goodness knows what division they were in.
ReplyDeleteIf so cease comparing apples and oranges and start compiling robust complete sets of data.
People dont need to make Hodgson look bad, hes doing a pretty good job of that all by himself
ReplyDeleteThanks for the informative article Jamie - Tomkins is a great and respected writer, but i do wish he (along with many other interent writers) would quit the bile he is spouting regarding Hodgson. It worries me that someone with such perceived wisdom regarding LFC feels its appropriate slate the manager in such a way. I think Tomkins is well known for manipulating statistics to illustrate his points, often at the expense of a balanced view. As supporters, sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
ReplyDeleteI think people who want him gone are looking at things objectively based on what we've seen so far. What reasons do you have to believe that things will turn around? What has given you this optimism? Are you just hoping that everything clicks into place?
ReplyDeleteI've said on numerous posts neither Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Ure for that matter would have anywhere near Hodgson had any of them got rid of their manager. I said at the time Rafa left that we needed Kenny Dalglish back at least until the club was sold. We got Roy and not one Liverpool supporter I know wanted him. If Mr Henry really does want the fans onboard he needs to listen to th vast majority of fans (95% in one recent poll) calling for Roy to be replaced by a Top Drawer manager. Until this happens I'm afraid we yo-yo-ing between relegation and mid table obscurity.
ReplyDeleteI gave Hodgson a honest chance before I turned, but that doesn't mean I will I'll try my best to thwart his job. He is crap, and I'm sure the owners know he's crap, but they won't replace him yet it is too soon...so there's no need to cry about. If they bring any body in now, even Mourinho, they wouldn't be able to f 'all. Best thing to do is support the TEAM...fighting for fourth this year(that WILL be the best we can do this year*). They will change Roy when the times right, but crapping on him now could get us relegated(a bit far fetched). Hate, but hate silently....
ReplyDeleteThe "105 away games" line was printed in the Daily Mail first:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1329649/Roy-Hodgson-admits-Liverpool-doubts-fans-Kenny-Dalglish.html
Vitriol should be aimed at them if indeed the figures are incorrect - perhaps you can get on at the DM about the origin of the figures?
Hodgson must go now! I don't care what % he has won or lost away from home, the fact is his style of football is depressing and down right boring! No Liverpool team (in my lifetime) has ever been so meek and uncreative!
ReplyDeleteHODGSON OUT!!!
if you are going to present evidence make it complete. You are arguing all competitions, does this include Johnson Paint trophy and other such competitions, does it include UEFA qualifyers as he was in English football. What proportion of league wins was outside the top flight? Is the 105-13 stat correct for league games (in top flight or total.
ReplyDeleteI am afraid your counter argument is in complete and before I would follow request to expose the 'lies' I would require much more than this half baked analysis.
I'm not wasting my time on people who try and find negative exceptions just for the sole purpose of then using it against a Liverpool manager who has only been in the job for 4 months. If you wan fuel for your 'hodgson out' fire, find it yourself.
ReplyDeleteAh, yes. The data was robust enough for thousands of fans to believe the LIE, but when I use actual facts, the data is suddenly not robust or comparable. Funny that!
ReplyDeleteYour comment says it all: you really can't be bothered to check stats - like so many others, you just accepted what you were told because it fitted in with your personal view.
Bristol City, Blackburn Rovers, Fulham: How many away games shoud won these Clubs, to satisfied these sick Hodgson detractors?
ReplyDeleteIs Bristol City like Real Madrid of Jose Mourinho?
How many away game Mourinho whoul wind if He managed Bristo City?
But Why these Hodgson's haters, Who want only to force the Club in turm oil in November, they don't give a look to the outstanding job, magnificent job, which Roy Hodgson did when he taken over at an unknown switzerland side, including an historic qualification to the World Cup, and a fantastic draw, against one of the best England's side, rich of talent, at Wembley.
Only Ottmar Hitzfield did similar things and He reached a similar level with Switzerland.
These newsa don't fit to their agenda?
A request for Jamie: Is it possible to compare away % wins by Roy at Bristol City with away % wins of his predecessor?
And Thanks for your brilliant and outstanding job for our beloved Club: We always provide information & analysys, We always bring to our attention facts which We'll never get individually.
Your work help to defeat the misinformation.
It's a great service to the Club.
Bristol City, Blackburn Rovers, Fulham: How many away games shoud won these Clubs, to satisfied these sick Hodgson detractors?
ReplyDeleteIs Bristol City like Real Madrid of Jose Mourinho?
How many away game Mourinho whoul wind if He managed Bristo City?
But Why these Hodgson's haters, Who want only to force the Club in turm oil in November, they don't give a look to the outstanding job, magnificent job, which Roy Hodgson did when he taken over at an unknown switzerland side, including an historic qualification to the World Cup, and a fantastic draw, against one of the best England's side, rich of talent, at Wembley.
Only Ottmar Hitzfield did similar things and He reached a similar level with Switzerland.
These newsa don't fit to their agenda?
A request for Jamie: Is it possible to compare away % wins by Roy at Bristol City with away % wins of his predecessor?
And Thanks for your brilliant and outstanding job for our beloved Club: We always provide information & analysys, We always bring to our attention facts which We'll never get individually.
Your work help to defeat the misinformation.
It's a great service to the Club.
Its interesting Jamie how you like to give more emphasis on the facts that prove your point and ignore the facts that don't
ReplyDeleteWhat facts are you on about? People very rarely include verifiable facts in the counter arguments on here. you've said it - please expand and illustrate how I 'ignore facts'. If you can't back it up, don't say it in the first place.
so lets be clear on this, the point of this article is to prove that the information banded about on twitter recently is incorrect & roy hodgsons poor away record as a manager is irrelevant?
ReplyDeleteAt no time did I care about whether Hodgson won 'only 13 away games' out of 105. What bothers me is what I'm seeing now. What your article clearly shows, is that he's not good enough. He's won half the number of games he's lost, & failed to win 89 times out of 113. And you've said his 'away record' is comparable to Blackburn, Fulham, & Bristol City - There's the problem!
ReplyDeleteBristol City, Blackburn Rovers, Fulham: How many away games shoud won these Clubs, to satisfied these sick Hodgson detractors?
ReplyDeleteIs Bristol City like Real Madrid of Jose Mourinho?
How many away game Mourinho whoul wind if He managed Bristo City?
But Why these Hodgson's haters, Who want only to force the Club in turm oil in November, they don't give a look to the outstanding job, magnificent job, which Roy Hodgson did when he taken over at an unknown switzerland side, including an historic qualification to the World Cup, and a fantastic draw, against one of the best England's side, rich of talent, at Wembley.
Only Ottmar Hitzfield did similar things and He reached a similar level with Switzerland.
These newsa don't fit to their agenda?
A request for Jamie: Is it possible to compare away % wins by Roy at Bristol City with away % wins of his predecessor?
And Thanks for your brilliant and outstanding job for our beloved Club: We always provide information & analysys, We always bring to our attention facts which We'll never get individually.
Your work help to defeat the misinformation.
It's a great service to the Club.
The difference is irrelevant - what matters is the true figures are available, and fans stop lying.
ReplyDeleteBristol City, Blackburn Rovers, Fulham: How many away games shoud have won Roy in these Clubs, to satisfied these sick Hodgson detractors?
ReplyDeleteIs Bristol City like Real Madrid of Jose Mourinho?
How many away game Mourinho whould win if He managed Bristol City?
But Why these Hodgson's haters, Who want only to force the Club in turm oil in November, they don't give a look to the outstanding job, magnificent job, which Roy Hodgson did when he taken over at an unknown switzerland side, including an historic qualification to the World Cup, and a fantastic draw, against one of the best England's side, rich of talent, at Wembley.
Only Ottmar Hitzfield did similar things and He reached a similar level with Switzerland.
These sort of news don't fit to their agenda of hate & mystyfication?
A request for Jamie: Is it possible to compare away % wins by Roy at Bristol City with away % wins of his predecessor?
And Thanks for your brilliant and outstanding job for our beloved Club: You always provide information & analysys, You always bring into our attention facts which We'll never get individually.
Your work help to defeat the misinformation.
It's a great service to the Club.<span>
</span>
Good point, Belinda. Thanks. That just makes it worse though; Tomkins et al took something the Daily Mail said and posted in on without a thought. And these are the same fans who constantly slag off the daily Mail for posting crap about Liverpool (!).
ReplyDeleteHilarious. (I'll amend the article).
He has lost twice as many as he has won, if you think that is acceptable then you are no Liverpool, Jaimie he is not good enough for Liverpool, you know it I know it For gods sake my 3 year old knows it!
ReplyDeleteI don't need fuel for anything. I don't have any hidden agenda, I'm just curious. All I asked for was the numbers. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteNgomong opo to koe Cak...Cak...
ReplyDeleteNot so important how much time RH won his away game in English Football. You finally just want to say the truth that the fact tha's he is won 24 not 13.
Hello fellow readers,
Jaimie just want to tell us that RH just has won 24 not 13. No more than that.
<span>Ngomong opo to koe Cak...Cak...
ReplyDeleteNot so important how much time RH won his away game in English Football. You finally just want to say the truth that the fact that he is won 24 not 13.
Hello fellow readers,
Jaimie just want to tell us that RH has won 24 not 13. No more than that. So, don't take to seroius. <span>
</span></span>
<span><span>Ngomong opo to koe Cak...Cak...
ReplyDeleteNot so important how much time RH won his away game in English Football. You finally just want to say the truth that the fact that he is won 24 not 13.
Hello fellow readers,
Jaimie just want to tell us that RH has won 24 not 13. No more than that. So, don't take so seroius. <span></span></span><span>
</span></span>
He also managed intermilan u dumbass
ReplyDeleteSO if the above stats were quoted instead with 21% away win rate in English football and was used to indicate Roy's poor record, that would be ok?
ReplyDeletemy bad i never saw that you were only lookin at ENGLISH clubs
ReplyDelete"<span>...none of whom had the capacity to *think* critically..."</span>
ReplyDeleteJaimie, if people had the capacity or will to think critically, our so-called democratic political systems wouldn't work. Thinking critically would even prevent people from supporting high-profile football clubs who have long sold their soul, so to speak. Football nowadays is all about commerce, which in itself is not exactly something one should crave to support. Most or all of us are in it (supporting LFC) for some kind of romantic reasons which are, looking at it critically, unfounded in these times. Critical thinking would prevent us to buy shirts and then wear them resembling an advertising pillar as the most striking thing apart from the colour is the sponsor on the shirt. We pay to do that. It's unbelievable.
ths stat was spouted by steve mcmohan on the monday night verdict..just saw it :)
ReplyDeleteJamie,you make me laugh at a time when its very difficult to smile.Our team are in a poor position,not dire but I believe you keep behind Woy as you were one of the most outspoken people against Rafa,if Woy has the same or similar away record to Rafa WHY OH WHY arent you banging on about him now as you did Rafa.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the laughs anyway.
I really wanted to give him a chance but hes out of his depth he looks like death warmed up,this job will kill the poor old soul.I do not believ he is the right man for us and will only bring in rubbish players in Jan,we have to get shut despite your loyalty.
I disagree - the DM published the exact line you are not happy with, there was no twisting IMO by Paul or the others on Twitter - Just perhaps some added exposure to the DMs mistake (if indeed it is a mistake, the thing you are trying to tach here is to not believe the printed word without question, that's all I'm doing to your statement & also the DMs)
ReplyDeleteMight even seek clarification from the DM on this but I doubt I will hear back
"We dont look good in any area, defensivly, keeping the ball, or attacking we just look like an average side right now"
ReplyDeleteJust like last season!
His PREMIERSHIP away record is abysmal. Jamie is as clueless as Woy and that takes some doing!
ReplyDeleteWOY OUT!
Jamie, try to compare facts such as shots on goal, possession, corners and general play as this would probaly indicate the substandard tactics the Manager is deploying. We need more than this and the fans arent daft, they know a duff when they see one. We are renoun for our knowledge on football and we do not have anything to see how things can turn round so its a case of defending the indefensible. We do not need a media monkey to say things the press wanna hear, we would prefer a Rafa type who creates an us and them scenario - everybody hates us anyway and the majority of the football fans in the country would love to see us down and that is where Roy is taking us so it makes everyone happy except us. He is not the most inspiring manager and not the most astute either.
ReplyDeleteI supported you on many things on this site but my support is waining with this, we cannot support or stick by a manager dragging us down. We are coming up to halfway through the season and have the big teams to play again, if it continues we will be scrapping for survival..changes need to be made now so the new guy can spend wisely.
NESV have made changes at director level so hopefully they have a new man line up to weplace woy - who was there imo to oversee the sale process and be a yes man.
If we lose the next two games then we would have to look at changing things
ReplyDeleteAre you referring to the same Blackburn Rovers who at the time had the most expensive squad ever to have been relegated; as well as having recently won the PL? I suppose the opposition to that side must have been so terrible, that it's a miracle anyone else could have won any of the major tournaments in the 90's!
ReplyDelete<span>If you're going to put Hodgson's away record in context, you have to compare it to teams like Blackburn, Fulham and Bristol City, not Liverpool, United and Arsenal.<span>
ReplyDeleteWhat about Liverpool - Roy' s record</span></span>
PL - 1 from 7 (14%)
UEFA - 0 from 2 (0)%
Is this good enough?
I have consulted my Liverpool handbook given to me at my birth and no where can I find it is accepatble to make judgement after 6 months but 4 months is verboten. How many months did it take to identify Voronin, Degen, Jimmy Carter, Kozma, Daio etc
were not up to the job, would we as fans be excommunicated for not waiting 6 months.
Roy said give him 10 games then judge, he nows says he is 38 - 55 man (keep paying me longer). Sorry he is not of the required standard and time to go.
I've never raised any points or questions here before, but often look in and enjoy thre exchanges. I also think that the postings are invariably interesting , and well researched. Having looked at this one, I agree that the bald statement about Roy Hodgson's away record is unqualified and inaccurate. I've spent the last half hour trying to find out more. I could do so, but with great demands on time I do not have. What I'm trying to ascertain is where the 13 out of 105 figure comes fom? Do you know? Would I be right in guessing this is a figure just for away league games (i.e. ruling out other competitions), and, if so, does this also include figures for time wityh culbs that were not top flight?
ReplyDeleteFact is Jamie, 24 wins in 113 games is simply not good enough for a club with our ambition and history. Any manger who should be considered for a club of our stature, our glorious history, our records still hold us in the higher echelons of the European elite, despite years of nothing. There are many misnomers across all aspects of the media – for me, I have and always will continue to evaluate based on what I pay to see each and every week. As you say, right or wrong Roy's past is irrelevant, as debatable as that is as clearly he is living up and inline with how he has performed elsewhere from a points perspective, it matters on the pitch and anyone who argues we are doing well is clearly showing ulterior motives other than balanced critique. When you dig into Roys past he simple does not have the pedigree to manage our club. When you see the dross on the pitch he doesnt have the ability to manage a team to perform at the level we should be. The performances are poor, his comments towards the fans, the players and past management are embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteGiven how we have Comolli on board, and his past signings at Arsenal and Spurs do lend it self significantly to nesv's youth policy and approach for me, if we are actually going to start again (heard that before) with the focus on good investment in youth (£10m mark for players like Walcott and Bale) for me I would much rather see a coach who plays attacking expansive football and mould the kids into playing at the very least good attractive football. There are many managers out there who are capable of that – Rijkaard is constantly linked, good choice imo.
Roy came in under the old regime to steady the ship – his record is mid table at best and look where we are. New owners, new strategy, new focus, new management please.
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Correct me if I am wrong, Jamie. Roy Hodgson has won 13 Premier League away games as manager of Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool. He has been manager in 80 Premier League away games.
ReplyDeleteSo, you are right in calling the 105-statement wrong. But why wouldn't you just give the correct numbers when people asked for it? You don't lie yourself, but you are certainly not telling the hole truth, either.
Sorry - there are just lots of people who try and discredit factual figures with endless exceeptions just so they can have something to attack the manager with. I don't have the figures for PL only, but I will compile them.
ReplyDeleteHodgson's away record compared to similar teams he has managed is comparable. That is what matters.
ReplyDeleteReally..thats what matters? Liverpool are a similar team to what he has managed before? You have got to be having a laugh, Liverpool are a far far bigger club than anything Woy has managed. 13 wins or 24 wins out of 113 both stats are shit and we should not have to put up with that, our club deserves better.
Yes, it contains ALL games, including UEFA qualifiers etc.
ReplyDeleteJamie ...i now that you are not liverpool fan but MU fan,always want liverpool like shit...u are useless,hodson is suck ...houlier is better than him and benitez is much much better than houlier so can you imagine....same team like last season but worse than ever....come on jamie be real.....
ReplyDeleteAlso, this is not so relevant to this particular article, but I remember last season how you used to post articles about how Benitez alienated certain players due to poor managment, including the likes of Alonso, Keane, Benayoun and some others I can't remember.
ReplyDeleteHow come this season you haven't been criticising Hodgson for doing the same to certain players? Eg Agger, Johnson, Pacheo?
Doesn't suit your agenda I guess.
With respect, Paulie, I don't write stuff to curry favour/support with readers. I give my opinions, just like you. I don't ask for, or need, people to support me, just like you don't need people to support your opinion. You believe it passionately, and that's good enough for you, right?
ReplyDeleteAgree, neither Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Ure would have tried to get Hodgson in had they sacked/lost their respective managers, but none of these clubs finished seventh last season, qualified to the Europa League not because of performance but because the team that would have qualified failed to apply (Portsmouth), had to deal with owners who were more or less on their way out and so on. I am pretty sure that, had we qualified for the CL, had propper owners and an overall stable situation at the club, we could have attracted a higher profile manager.
ReplyDeleteBelinda - please look at the exact line posted by the Daily Mail. Now compare that with what Tomkins et all have posted. 'League games' has been changed to ' In English football'. That is a deliberate attempt to make it sound like the that record is for all competitions in English football. That is twisting the facts. And Mail's facts are are not even correct anyway.
ReplyDeleteI would have no problem with that because it would be true.
ReplyDeleteRovers was obviously a CLub in decline when Roy took charge.
ReplyDeleteDebt were aleardy reached a toxic level when Roy took charge.
Blackburn experiences the same decline of Leeds United.
These kind of Clubs, can't maintain this high standards forever.
When You bring facts, You should analyse facts in the right context.
And also a world class manager like Rafa, He experienced relegation in La Liga 1 in charge at Extremadura.
In any case, relegation remains always a relegation.
So I should point out extremadura's relegation in order to assess that Rafa is an average manager?
Come on, respect the Holyt trinity and give a fuccking chance to the man in charge.
Yes, you're absolutely right Anteater. Governments prefer us to just accept things without thinking; that way we can be easily controlled.
ReplyDeleteLies or not, that record is horrible.I think most fans will agree, It is unacceptable at LFC.That record is over a LONG stretch of time too, 112 points from 113 games is horrible. Expectations are high, those results are low.
ReplyDeleteI think most liverpool supporters can understand why too. The way Hodgson sets out this liverpool team for away games is very negative in terms of style of play. Slow passing, long balls in hope, and Torres isolated until Hodgson finally realises that its not working, by which time, the game is generally past us.
You're article, while it may have intended to point out lies. And sure, it has to some degree. It is clear, it points out one obvious truth- his away record, is simply not good enough.
As great a player as he was, he also got it wrong.
ReplyDelete"* This article is not about Hodgson's away record per se - it is about highlighting how fans lie and twist the facts to serve their agenda.
ReplyDelete"Jaimie,Because if it was about Hodgson's away record it would give people more ammunition as to why he should never have been appointed.Can I also assume that Hodgson's away record is worse than Rafa's or you would have highlighted that as well. But I wouldn't want to accuse you of being selective with statistics to prove a point.
you are such a supercilious **** at times - you slagged off rafa constantly but now you think you are some sort of superfan for supporting roy - lad you are pathetic - you won't even answer any question that is asked that doesn't allow you to bang on how about how great a fan you are and how 'true' fans would give the manager backing no matter what
ReplyDeleteyou are wrong, completely wrong - fans want the best for the club - you clearly are not a true fan as all you want to do is put yourself up in an ivory tower and tell us all how you know best and we are all clueless because we aren't doing what you say
clearly roy is out of his depth - his interviews are a disgrace and any manager talking about how a point against everton would have been a good point (just after an embarrassing and shameful capitulation to them) should be sacked forthwith - he clearly doesn't understand the task at hand and he is not going to lead the club back to its former glories with his defensive, defeatist attitude - in fact he is not going to even try because his only worry is not losing, where shanks' would have been thinking about how he could beat his next opponent roy is busy thinking about how he can avoid losing to the next team
oh well at least there is one thing you have proven to me - it is that you have no interest in liverpool whatsoever - your only interest is in trying to prove how much more you know than others when quite clearly you know sweet fa about the sport of football
<span>It is important that fans show that the rabid minority does not speak for the fair-minded majority - <span>Jaimie Kanwar</span></span>
ReplyDeleteha ha! Mate wake up, its the 'rabid' majority. the MAJORITY of Liverpool fans want Hodson gone for one reason and one reason only, his record clearly shows he is not good enough and should never have been given the job. We are now seeing the proof on the pitch. SIMPLE! A few incorrect figures tweeted about makes little difference, especially when the correct figures also make terrible reading.
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It's not different with football clubs. They want us to buy their merchandise without thinking.
ReplyDeleteI've found them. See reply further down.
ReplyDeleteLook at it a different way Jaimie, his OVERALL English League Football away record would be diabolical had it not been for his tenure at Bristol City!
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm convinced!
that's rubbish and you should know it rick - rovers were still being financed by jack walker in hodgson's time - he spent heavily on players, including 7.5m on kevin davies who scored (i think) just once for rovers, he had good backing and messed up
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that Liverpool are being managed by a man who has won less than a quarter of all his away games in the league, not good enough for LFC! But in the meantime - shame on the fans who thought he'd only won 13 games, get it right - it's a whopping 24 out of 113. The question is - would United, Chelsea or Arsenal settle for a manager with such a fantastic away record?
ReplyDeleteer no far worse than last season - now it is not just one or two players who are unhappy and wanting out, now it is almost the entire first team squad oh and every foreign kid in our reserves and youth teams
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading a few of your posts recently I can totally see the point your trying to get across and to be honest I'm amazed that others make such hard work of it. I know you use stats to back you up (which I don't have a problem with as long as they're correct) but I'm just going to use simple words and this is how I see it.
Many calling for Hodgson to go? For me there have been far too many individual poor performances last season and this season for it all to be aimed at Roy. I actually find some peoples responses very juvenile. Its almost like:
Lucas against chelsea fantastic (couldn't have been anything to do with Roy)
Lucas against Stoke poor (must have been down to Roy)
Gerrard against Stoke (can't believe he set up the second whats Roy doing)
You know the sort of thing, everyones a football manager!!!
In short Roys got an incredibly tough task on his hands and hearing The Kop singing Dalglish's name must really help (as if bringing in Kenny is a guarantee to success anyway, could make things even worse). For me peoples expectation levels are far far too high at the moment, yes we're Liverpool Football Club yes we expect better but has everyone missed the last 8-10 months? Won't go over it as I'm sure everyones up to scratch.
On top of that he's managing another managers team, which for me gives no justification to how he's being talked about over the last 6-8weeks? Has anybody spotted that its clearly a tougher league this season? We finished 7th last season and we're currently sitting 11th 3 points off joint 5th. If it does end in Roy getting ousted before he even gets a chance to manage a team of his own because of nonsense being posted about his away records and fan preasure... That would be a disgrace and more importantly could end in an even worse finish this season. For me the overall reality is we ain't that good at the moment and getting rid of your manager this early into the season is NOT the way forward. If we're in a similar position at the end of the season fair enough.
Jaimie i understand that 13/105 might be a lie, but who cares?
ReplyDeleteThe reason Hodgon hasnt spent more time in English Football is becasue nobody really ever wanted him. His track record is poor. Just becAUSE 13/105 is a lie does not make 24/113 good
Just like in your last article where you comapred each managers first 23 games, even though one included eight europa games compared to the others champs elague games. Here you are using stats from lower divisions. That is why the manager thjat wins league 2 or league 1 is never the manager of the year. Stats on there own mean nothing
If the headline read. ' Hodgson has only won 13 out og 105 games in the English top flight" it wouldnt bne a lie and that is a sad truth
Another speculative assertion - 'The data was robust enough for thousands of fans to believe the LIE,...'. Nobody can say what someone 'believed'; even if they did retweet it. Yes, they may have spread misinfo; but the reason that that is irrelevant is because of what's going on, on the park - a certain fact is that we have only won 4 games out of 13, thus failing to win 9.
ReplyDeleteThis is on a par with Hodgson's previous English clubs, as your 'facts' show. I think you'll find that's the real problem LFC fans have with Hodgson
The stats were included in the Liverpool Echo and it stated <span>'Hodgson has never liked his travels - in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws.'</span>
ReplyDeleteThey are the stats, they may have missed out some games there that were not in league fixtures but that is the statistic. League games, 13 wins in 105 games.
Oh and did you know that Bristol City were relegated 3 times between 1980 and 1982 falling from Division One to Division Four, Hodgson was in charge then.....what a manager....
Words from Hodgson by the way....
<span> Blackburn's owner gave him the chance to resign honourably, but he refused to do so, leaving the club with no option but to sack him: "To Blackburn's honour, Jack Walker wanted me to resign, he wanted to still pay for the rest of my contract. He said, 'Why don't you resign? You've had enough, it's not working out.' I refused to do that, arrogant of course as I was in those days. I thought if they stuck with me I'd save them from relegation. I do think that the players were very much still with me, so I couldn't resign because that would be a suggestion that in some way I was doing something or something was happening which I didn't see to be the case or the truth. I gave him no choice but to sack me".</span>
I have to say that the figures are almost irelevent to me. I think it's poor that other sites and fans just take things they read at face value, so thank you for doing the research that others should have done.
ReplyDeleteI agree that these figures are just used as a stick to beat Hodgson with. For me, his previous stats if you will are not important. What concerns me now is how poor our away form is and has been for a while now. His away record with Blackburn has no relevence for me. I think it is unfair that fans can use stats like that to level criticism at Hodgson. But the fact remains that in the past 18 months, our away form has been woeful to say the least. And as a fan that travels to most away games, it has been such a disappointing period! We have to find a formula for improving results/performances. I'm a realist and accept there isn't a magic formual to adopt, but you have to winder if simply going gung-ho in all of our away games in that period would have yielded more points? it certainly would have yielded more goals and entertainment for the fans and i doubt we would have got much worse in terms of points.
We cannot simply keep going away from home, wasting 45-60 mins as we try and stifle teams, fall behind, then have a mad dash trying to turn the game around. It was a trait under Rafa and it appears to be the same under Hodgson (whis is my main criticism of Roy, no new identity). We simply wast so much time of football matches! No doubt we were poor on Sat, but as soon as we went behind, we immediately created 2 good chances and looked to have more about us. We cannot continue to waste 1st halfs of football.
L.F.C. are a premiership side so forget the "Stats"when football was played with a pigs bladder.How many AWAY games has Mr Hodgson won in the premiership while managing Blackburn/Fulham/Liverpool? Thirteen wins in six campaigns,lets be generous because he was sacked by Blackburn and his first season with Fulham he had only the back-end of a season.It's shocking Jamie no Spin on it,the antiquated way of playing belongs like Hodgson in the history books.One away win for Fulham last season,preceded by three the previous two.You want this man as manager?Are you his son/agent or just flying in the face of popular thought to get hits on your site? Liverpool KOP Liverpool Kop out more like.
ReplyDeleteMal - that figure was first posted in the Daily Mail, and they specifically stated that it included Bristol, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool. I've updated the table to include league figures, and it is not 13 wins in 105 league games at all.
ReplyDeleteand now say me where is jack Walker.
ReplyDeleteIs He the owner of Balckburn?
this si a fucking liar.
ReplyDeletea stupid & fucking liar.
Inter Milan is another brilliant example of Roy Hodgson's ability.
And don't try to say that I'm saying liars because I know well Serie A football.
Roy ineherited from coach Osvaldo Bagnoli the weaker inter of all times, which fought hard to avoid the relegation in italian 2nd division.
And The ownership of chairman Massimo Pellegrini were miles & miles way from the financial power in oil & hospitality of Chairman Massimo Moratti.
Roy relived a very weak Inter Milan side, with plenty of crap players like Galante, massimo paganin, caio, marco branca, maurizio ganz, up to the 2nd place in the league, Uefa Cup's final and 7th place next season with no money to splash in the transfer window.
Massimo Moratti is nowadays a solid admirer & personal friend of ROy hodgson, Who's been contacted by Inter Hierarchy but He refused the job in order to take Liverpool's difficult task.
I hate the liars, and the facts must be exposed in an honest way.
a tougher league than last season? in what way? in that all the top teams have become weaker due to age or the releasing of numbers of players so that they can lower their wage bill to get within uefa's new financial fair play rules? the league is weaker - no teams are clearly better than the rest and yet we are struggling - this is a league that clearly rewards attacking football and a will to win, yet we are playing defensive football in an attempt not to lose
ReplyDeletebut of course it is not his team - no it is far better than the team he left behind at fulham, the players are better so i would say that i would expect him to do better in the league with those players than he did at fulham - i would expect him to see which players are underperforming and drop them - i would expect him to motivate the players to perform to the best of their ability - i would expect him to give our best youth players a chance to replace those underperforming first teamers - but instead we are performing at a level fulham would deem acceptable just about, the underperforming players are first choice on the team sheet no matter how badly they play and any youth player that gets a game is immediately dropped because 'it's not fair to leave out experienced players'
Whether it was 10% or 20%. it does not matter. The message is that his record is bad. Things can be exagerated a bit, but it's not a lie.
ReplyDeletehe died - that is why rovers went into financial meltdown - well after roy's time though
ReplyDeleteMaybe, maybe not. Open to interpretation IMO - might even have been due to the 140 character limit of a tweet that this line was altered perhaps...
ReplyDeleteI think the bigger problem is the DMs mistake (I have sent them an email asking for clarification but doubt I will get much except spam) if they have made one - RH surely has a case for libel if true.
i agree roy is an excellent manager for italian football - but then it is much more defensive than the english or spanish leagues, he is a defensive manager in a league which rewards attacking play, he is not suited to the task at hand
ReplyDeleteI've updated the table, and it's 84 PL games, not 80, with 15 wins, not 13. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference but what *does* make a difference is people spreading misinformation. 13 wins in 105 games? I have no idea where The mail or anyone else got that false stat from.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know Hodgson has 'alienated' Agger, Johnson and Pacheco? Show me quoted from any of them that stat that, or even infer that. there are specific quotes/tv interviews from both Alonso and Benayoun re Benitez alienating them. (I've posted the links hundreds of times on the site)
ReplyDeleteYou asserted that Blackburn were in decline when Hodgson was appointed, which may have an iota of truth, but only in the sense that they may not have found it a simple thing to maintain the top quality that they'd had.
ReplyDeleteBut to use that as evidence for a 'club in decline', is at the best, clutching at straws, & the facts prove otherwise. There certainly were 'a lot of expensive failures' in that squad!
Fulham Football now just should have the same away game pedigree of real madrid?
ReplyDeleteNobody which has a normal perspective way of see things seriously can comprend your way of view the facts.
Anti drug test please for Bally please.
Europa League Final is not enough when You are the manager of Fulham.
Right, anyone expected that Fulham will challenge for CL's spot week in week out.
Sam - the Echo got it WRONG. Hodgson has played 94 away games, NOT 105; and he has won 15, NOT 13.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are also spreading misinformation! Hodgson was in charge at Bristol City for 5 months ONLY, not between 1980 and 1982. He was assistant manager for the majority of his time there.
You are yet another person who spins lies to further your agenda.
So the bottom line is....
ReplyDeleteHodgson is not fit to manage Liverpool, and the stats/facts back that up.
as opposed to you who spins the truth to further your agenda - you are no better, in fact you are worse because you are accusing others of knowingly spinning lies when in fact 99% of them don't realise it is a lie - whereas you are putting a spin on things knowingly and in full knowledge of what you do while trying to take the moral high ground - you would make a great politician
ReplyDelete"Is this not a gross lack of unfairness?" - wtf does that mean?
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting that, Sam. Sounds quite familiar to things we hear in 2010, wouldn't you say?
ReplyDeleteWhere did I go wrong?
ReplyDeleteBlackburn 1997/98: 19 games / 5 wins
Blackburn 1998/99: 7 games / 0 wins
Fulham 2007/08: 9 games / 3 wins
Fulham 2008/09: 19 games / 3 wins
Fulham 2009/10: 19 games / 1 win
Liverpool 2010/11: 7 games / 1 win
Total: 80 games / 13 wins
I don't care about the stats on Roy, what I care about is the team's overall perfomance and that in my mind just sucks. Roy is good, but not at Liverpool he need to go and coach a team like Hull he will fit better there with their deep defence tactics. That is the game he is playin and from that posistion he cannot counter. He only realise 10 mins before the game is over he is busy loosing and want's to wake up from his dream land and send on the players he should have had on in the beginning. He sends a quality player such as Alberto Adqualani to Juventus and complains he don't have the players he need to build the team just plain stupid to me. You don't build a team you work with what you have and make it better how do you go from 7th to 18th on the log and then still wanna argue about stats that is unimportant. talk about the man's on field play that totaly is bull. He can't retain the ball, his formation is predictable and he keeps players like Ngog and Lucas. Please take Roy and the players he bought put them in a green garbage bag and throw them off London Bridge.
ReplyDeleteJamie, it really doesn't matter how you dress it up, Hodgson has been dire in every way since he started. Please stop wasting everybody's time with this ludicrous defence of his management.
ReplyDeleteJamie
ReplyDeleteSo someone got the maths wrong!
Does it make any meaningful difference?
The away form is poor. Relegation standard.
I'm glad you have the time to keep producing these facts on your website. I don't take issue with any of the statistics you produce. Presentation however is something taht can manipulate analsis one way or another and I'm not sure what espoucing the statistic s really achieves.
I think fans should keep their own counsel publicly and specifically on the internet.
It has become unseemly the way the club and it's manager's present and past have been vilified.
"The truth is out there", Jamie. Fans all know it without the lecturing. Passion doesn't get in the way of the truth, just clouds it in passing.
The bottom line is the stadium, increased revenue, better recruitment of youth players (which has begun), appropriate outlay on players and the correct management structure and personnel. Success breeds success.
Sniping and point scoring among fans ACHIEVES NOTHING.
The club is at the most crucial point in it's history and decisions will be taken over the next 12 months that will detemine the level the club will be competing at for the forseeable future.
Lets all get back to the Liverpool way. Wit should guide public comments from within the club and all us fans should get behind the club and do less talking.
There are enough fans of other clubs happy at our predicament, enough pundits who can snipe away at the clubs performance. Leave it to them.
and what is my agenda Kanwar????? You tell me because as far as I was concerned, my agenda is Liverpool Football Club doing well and winning things which they will NOT do with the current manager in charge!!! Hodgson was appointed by a man who is a business executive who is respected in the business world and not one who is a football expert!! He is a football fan and I have nothing against Purslow but when a man such as Dalglish, who IS football expert, is so clear that he feels that someone is not right for a job, you listen when it comes to football irrespective of who you are. Dalglish has won league titles as a player and manager, European Cups as a player yet the appointment of Hodgson was seen as a stop gap. No manager at Liverpool Football Club should be a stop-gap. If you cannot get a manager in who will win things, don't get rid of the previous one who did win things. Fact of the matter is, is that we sacked Benitez before we had identified who we wanted as to whether they were available or not. Hodgson was appointed because he was seen as a man who knew English football the most of all the other candidates who were spoken to. If the stories are to be believed about existing managers, Hiddink, Rijkaard, Deschamps were all asked whether they fancied the job which shows we had no clue who was available.
ReplyDeleteI thought Benitez had come to the end of the road with the club in the state it was in during the summer but I would rather be in this situation with the new owners with Rafa in charge than with Hodgson. If someone like Quique Sanchez Flores or similar had been appointed, I would feel different because he has shown he has talent, a good style of football and an eye for a player, Hodgson offers nothing but despair and anger that each time, we go out onto the field, home or away, you have no idea what Liverpool will turn up and whether we will make use of our best players. I want us to go into games like West Ham at Anfield expecting to win, with Hodgson it is hope that we may win.
So, you tell me what my agenda is other than to see Liverpool Football Club do well.
You have highlighted the inaccuracies of the widely quoted rumour, journalists should properly research this stuff before printing
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion 21% win rate in away games is poor, too poor for us to challenge for top 4
The reason why people don't count away cup games is because they may be against lower tier opposition, whereas league games are against your peers
Roy is not a long term option is he?? So let's not worry about him, he's a nice man but surely only a stopgap
John Henry says we will not be spending big in January, perhaps because they want their OWN people to pick new players
Also, is there any possibility that new owners WANT to sell Torres, Reina etc? Get big money for them, reinvest wisely with lower outlay on salary??
Haha!!!
ReplyDeleteThe question set to you Jaimie was Hodgsons League record!
You can't change to suit just like we can't change your origional article to suit our purpose!
The factual figure is he's won 11 Premier League games total!
If thats too hard for you here's Hodgsons last 2 years PREMIER LEAGUE away record when at Fulham!
Played: 38
Won: 4
Drawn: 15
Lost: 19
Goals Scored: 23
Goals Against: 49
I find it quite sad that the rules of simple debate can be changes on this site at the authors discretion. Be magnanimous for once and stop being <span><span>obtuse.</span></span>
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Indeed John, it sounds horrifyingly familiar to what was said after the game on Saturday. Hodgson has shown he has a stubborn side to him and a thick skin to criticism but at the moment he is entirely reliant on the players getting him out of his hole and not his own tactical and motivational ability.
ReplyDeletethis is a possible point ore regular tesis that I can respect.
ReplyDeleteI 've only given a reply to some liars which many spreading out.
Your "tesis" are more than possible, but in my view a "July - November" period of management, with many reinforcements needed, are not enough time to be certain of that assesment.
We're closing in a good knock down stage of Europea League, and any sort of rush appear to be a big risk.
In my view We should give a proper chance to the man, and the only proper chance is a whole season in charge.
That's not what matters. You don't understand our club do you?
ReplyDeleteI agree that the facts are the facts and that an argument should always be based on the facts but here's the thing for me. I never consulted facts to arrive at my conclusion that ROY is not the man to take this club forward. He signed a short contract (in relation to other managers) so he could stem the tide so to speak. He was placed during a tumultuous time ... with new owners on board, surely he can't be the man to manage this club based on team selection, tactics, media gaffes, poor transfer nous etc. etc. ??? He has demonstrated to me that he cannot handle a big club ... so it's ROY OUT NOW ... facts or no facts. Most supporters (from frequenting many sites) are of the same opinion with only a handful making reference to the numbers you mentioned above. Agreed that true info should be used but so often us regular browsers of the 'Net just assume that someone has checked it out before leaking the info and pounce on it. I do not think the deviation from the fact is material enough ... the fact still remains ... most supporters want ROY OUT NOW !!!
ReplyDeleteIt's not a LIE! It's just a very little mistake. Your stats show he only won 11 games more, was that little discrepancy really worth this article. The same conclusion about Hodgson's record is still made.
ReplyDeleteCan you state how many more games than 13 stated he has won.
ReplyDeleteIs it true when Hodges was coach of Bristol City , they were in the old 3rd or 4th division.
ReplyDeleteWell regardless of what is statistically true or not we can all read the ladder and it aint pretty.
ReplyDeleteIf in fact lies have been spread then it just goes to prove people are desperate to see the end of Roy, a nice guy but just does not cut the mustard at a big club.
Jamie surely you could not be happy with the kind of football being played by the side.and could at least be open to a change for the better.
Roy is not the man to rebuild this side with young talent and Henry will not give him a penny after his recent transfer efforts thus Comolli's appointment and no funding in January.
Jamie, when you look at the percentage of away wins, are you satisfied with the performance of Roy?? I have noticed that the percentage of unbeaten includes drawn games. we are interested in the wins that make a significant contribution.....After your satistics, I believe Roy isnt the right Man for Liverpool. 84 games played in the Premier League and only 15 won?? Less than a quarter and You think this is the right man?? Dear me!!!
ReplyDeleteYou are a total pillock. Defending a 60 year old managers record of wins . His stint at Bristol city was in the old 3rd division.
ReplyDeleteDaboy - I reall do wish you and others would try and see this simple point: It is not about whether I am 'happy' with with the kind of football being played; I am not! I wasn't least season either, or for a few seasons under Benitez.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that *despite* the problems at the moment, Hodgson should be supported.
I am not defending Hodgson per se; I am defending the principle that ANY Liverpool manager deserves support in the first 4-6 months of their tenure.
That doesn't mean I'm blinf to the problems; I will readily concede that, at times, it has not been good enough.
That doesn't mean I'm going to call for the manager to be sacked after 4 months though. Given the situation he's been in and the difficulty of the job, I can see that more time is needed before a judgement is made.
It's not mainstream journos I'm bothered about; we should expect them to get it wrong. What irritates mis is fans jumping on a rumour and then spreading it like wildfire, not caring at all whether it's true or not.
ReplyDeleteActually what matters is the bigger picture, and the "message". RH record is not good.
ReplyDeleteNo. I will continue defending the manager during his first 6 months at the club. You can jump on the kneejerk bandwagon - that's your choice.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think Hodson can and most probably will get us 4th place - provided he doesn't lose the dressing room. My worries with Hodgson are:
ReplyDelete- quality of football
- (and hence) calibre of players he can attract or he will want to fit in his style of play
- (and hence) ability to take us forward
- (and hence) ability to keep our star players and up and coming youth prospects
For the above reasons, I'm not sure I want him to be manager during the January and especially the summer transfer window. I haven't heard one Liverpool fan, including you Jaimie, say that they want Roy for the long term, and for that reason I say, why keep him for the short term? In order not to pay him his 3mill compensation? Personally I feel that bringing in a "big name" manager in the very short term would save us time and money in the building/re-building process in the long term.
Actually I've double checked your premier league away game stats and they're incorrect. It seems its easy to get these thing wrong!
ReplyDeleteRoy has managed 79 away games in the Premier League (26 with Blackburn, 47 with Fulham and 6 with Liverpool).
He has won 13, drawn 28 and lost 38. In percentage figures that's 16% win average and a 48% loss average.
At top clubs (ie excluding Fulham and remembering that Blackburn had the second most expensive squad in the league when he took charge! - they were that eras equivalent to Man City!) he has played 32 away games in total.
W6, D10, L16 i.e. 19% win average and 50 loss average.
(In contrast Rafa's league away figures are P114, W48, D28, L38 - a 42% win average and a 33% loss average)
As an aside after 13 league games this season we have scored 13 goals despite Torres being available for every game and he's managed 5 goals.
After 13 league games last season we had scored 29 despite Torres being unavailable for 3 of those games and he'd scored 10.
Whichever way you cut Hodgson is truly awful!
That's really funny. Did you know that the ManU fans were so keen to see us win nothing that they even set up a campaign to keep Rafa at our club? Not exactly what some people claimed was Jaimie's agenda, eh:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.redcafe.net/f7/krap-campaign-starts-here-184774/
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/krap-keep-rafa-at-pool/
I think blaming anyone who spends as much time as Jaimie writing about our club to be a supporter of any other club is plain stupid. Maybe you live in a world where only one opinion exists and everybody obeys to that.
Your point makes no sense. *to me* it might not be about Hodgson's away record but the stats are still presented, from which people can make up their own minds. How is that selective?! if people wnat to make inferences about Hodgson's away record they will.
ReplyDeletehe should be given a bit more time perhaps, but history isnt on his side...do we continue the roth or salvage our season & really get someone with quality in & push for a top 4 finish as i dont think we'll finish in the top 4 with Roy..we're already 1/3 through the season
ReplyDeletelol -
ReplyDeleteWhat he meant to say was "Is this not total unfairitude? The unfairitocity has reach levels of unfairiaciouness - that me must consider it afair.
And . . . rather ironically - through all the double negatives, Jaimie has asked "isn't this being too fair?"
In no way does Agger's interview suggest alienation or unhappiness.
ReplyDelete'Reports' about Johnson's comments are not quotes from johnson himself. They are more than likely completely made up reports.
I agree that criticising Johnson in public was wrong (as is all public criticism of players IMO).
Drug tests? I think you've been on the sniff Rick.Caps lock stuck is it?Inter's highest finish?3rd He refused the Inter job to take over liverpool! You are either a complete,W.U.M. or care in the community are not visiting your home.Why did Roy leave Inter? What became of his second spell in charge?You can,t spell nor debate.Take a long lay down. Fulham is relevant as that's his last post.Great for Fulham is so so for Liverpool.Were playing like a mid-table team home and away no drive,guts,nothing.When we finish 12th you can crow then eh? Oh and you've missed the "P" from your sign in name.Ho Ho
ReplyDeleteits 7 for liverpool
ReplyDeletew d l
1 2 4
win v bolton
drew v birmingham, wigan
lost v everton, man utd, man city , stoke
No, it is a lie. Tomkins et al tried to make out that Hodgson's TOTAL AWAY RECORD in England was 13 wins in 105 games. They could have checked this; they could have stipulated it was only league games (but the figures still would've been wrong), but they deliberately sensationalised it.
ReplyDeleteThe Mail and the Echo also got it wrong: 105 league games? It is only 90 overall; that is a difference of 15 games. And they included the bristol games too.
Well guys this is a great article proving what exactly??
ReplyDeleteComparing Woys record against Rafa's over a similar period reads as follwows:
Total Games (all comps) 350
Wins 194
Draws 77
Loss 79
Giving a win % of 55% and an unbeaten record of 77%
Premier League record
Away wins 48 out of 114 giving 42%
Games unbeaten 181 out of 228 giving 79%
Away games unbeaten 76 out of 114 giving 66%
Now i'm not one for wanting Rafa back at the helm but Roy record is woeful
Well this is a great article proving what exactly ???
ReplyDeleteCompared to Rafa's record over a similar period Woy's is woeful, Rafa's record is as follows
Total games (all comps) 350
Wins 194
Draws 77
Loss 79
Giving a win ratio of 55% and an unbeaten record of 77%
Premier League record
Away wins 48 out 114 games giving a win ratio of 42%
Games unbeaten 181 out of 228 giving a ratio of 79%
Away games unbeaten 76 out of 114 giving a ratio of 66%
Now that says it all
Are you honestly comparing other teams Hodgson has managed to Liverpool (except Inter and that went so well)? Did Roy win 1 away game last season with Fulham? He resume contains nothing of great value to make anyone believe that he can turn it around. For you to sit there and right that because Liverpool fans are criticizing him is disgusting, is in itself idiotic. You like taking the opposite view for the sake of it. If you sat down and looked at your own research, you would realize that he has proved nothing in the past that requires us to give him time. Nothing.
ReplyDeleteSorry - I stand corrected I'd missed out Stoke (I must be blanking it from my memory).
ReplyDeleteSo that's 80 PL games - W13, D28, L39. Doesn't affect the averages much still about 16% win rate and 48/49% loss rate.
W6, D10, L17 of 33 games with top teams. Win rate drops to 18% and loss rate up to 51.5%.
It looks like Roy wins about 1 out of every 5.5 away PL games and loses 1 out of every 2 no matter which club he is managing.
So he's on to win another 2 or 3 away PL games this season.
He is consistent at least.
Jaimie, are you honestly sitting there trying to defend your argument by saying that it is all lies? 24 league wins away from home in 90 attempts is a shocking stat - For you to try and somewhat compare Liverpool to previous clubs he has managed, is in itself ridiculous. His record is exactly that - managing mid-table teams to mediocrity - Your stats unveil nothing to suggest that Hodgson has the pedigree to turn things around at Liverpool and that is the problem. Benitez had a decent enough record (Won La Liga twice) and Hodgson has done...what exactly? Don't jump all over Liverpool fans wanting Roy simply because they don't trust his prior record....You're article does nothing but solidify everyone's concerns that Hodgson is not up to the job. Fancy that...
ReplyDeleteI didn't expect them to challenge for the Champions League spot, and they didn't. Fancy that...
ReplyDeleteDo you honestly believe Hodgson is better than Pellegrini? Or Dalglish? Or most importantly, Rafa? You get rid of someone if you are certain you can find someone to do a better job
ReplyDeleteMaybe they simply want out because it is not getting better. Anyway, I have not heard from one player that he wanted to leave. If I was to believe what the papers say then we would be without a squad already.
ReplyDeletesome of you so called liverpool 'fans' out there need to catch yourself on. historical statistics are all well and good. and yes, i agree that Mr Hodgson hasnt had the best of records in the past.
ReplyDeletebut so what? what relevance does this prove?? it was in THE PAST.
the man has been the manager of our beloved club for 4 MONTHS. whilst i conceed that liverpool are not doing as well as we've all come to expect, the bottom line is that we arent doing that badly. we are only 3 points off 5th place.
give the man a chance. calling for him to quit only adds further negativity to the situation, negativity which no one attached to the club needs. what we need to do is get behind him and support him. we need to support our club through the bad times. we need to stop being so negative all the time.
football is a funny old game, and has the capacity to surprise all of us from time to time. u only have to look at chelsea's result at the weekend. none of the teams above us are doing that great this season either, hence why we ourselves are still within touching distance.
judge roy at the end of the season. judge the players at the end of the season. calling for his head at this point of the season is completely pointless. our club is going through a transitional period of change. we got rid of the 2 yanks, and have immediately moved negative focus (originally aimed at them) onto roy, with no justification what so ever. as jaimie points out, time and time again, roy's comparitive record in the first 4 months of his tenure with other previous LFC managers is roughly the same.
since when did liverpool become a club with a fanbase which has a thirst for blood?? i think its a disgrace. no matter what happens, through thick and thin, good or bad, i will ALWAYS support the manager of the club that i love. we as fans do not chose the managers, the club itself does. trust your club enough and give them time enough to justify their decision. 4 months is NOT enough time.
I agree with the main thrust of your argument that LFC fans should think critically about info posted about LFC. One thing I would like to point out, though, is that whilst you may be correct in comparing Hodgson's teams (Bristol City, Fulham and Blackburn Rovers) against teams of a similar standing, I think you may have made an error regarding Blackburn.
ReplyDeleteIt is true to say that nowadays, Blackburn Rovers is a mid table side at best, however, when Roy was in charge of Blackburn Rovers, they were good enough to secure UEFA Cup position and still had a few players from their championship winning side. Therefore, when looking at Roy's away record at Blackburn in this context, it is not as good as you make out. Of course, for Fulham and Bristol City his record could be comparable to teams of a similar ilk, but this is not the case for his time at Blackburn Rovers.
Best regards,
Chris
Erm, no, but I don't think I wrote that. Dalglish, as much as I adored him as a player, could work both ways. When people ask for King Kenny to be reinstalled as our manager I fear that we turn into Newcastle. In hindsight I surely would have prefered him as an interim manager over Roy, but that didn't happen. I am not sure whether Pellegrini would have wanted to work under the given circumstances. And Rafa, well, he took us as far as he could. I thank him for the good memories, but his time was up. You get rid of someone if he becomes unbearable. By the way, I still think that Roy can finish seventh with the squad he inherited minus the best holding midfielder in the world. That would make him as good as Rafa, right?
ReplyDeleteOk, but the fact remains that his away record in English football is very poor, 21% win rate at best, and he routinely plays for a draw away from home
ReplyDeleteHe is just a stopgap right?????
Rumours and gossip is what most football fans are exposed to, pretty much like the media tide against previous managers. Most "fans" don't have the time or inclination to use excel or access to compile large databases of information
We are totally dependent on Man city imploding, Spurs CL distraction and Houllier not getting it right at Villa to get 4th spot
I repeat, without 4th spot, I think Reina and Torres will go in the summer, £50 + million for the pair, £250k a week saved in wages = £12.5 million a year in wages. This may be a good thing, it's time we talked about the club doing well and the fans being happy, not be fixated on the happiness of some overpaid pompous gits
Then the owners and Comolli can put new practices into action with bumper fund to back it up
<p>Just like you Jamie I think Rafa was shit (and still is considering his lousy performance managing a treble winning team). For last season yours is the one site that talk sense. Putting all these facts and lies aside, when you watch the recent games do you not think that the team could have done better had Hodgson deploy the same attacking tactics that he had in the first half of the Chelsea match. It feels to me that we are still in the perilous previous season and still playing negative football. It feels to me that we a getting an extended run of the previous season. All I want, just like all the other fans, is to see Liverpool play attacking football (even if we end up loosing). Don't you want to see that too Jamie?
ReplyDelete</p>
Is that the Fulham who outplayed us last season at Craven Cottage?
ReplyDeleteYou are right about motivating players. For some time now I think that quite a few of our players behave as if they were to big for our club. Some others seem to think that putting on a Liverpool shirt equals job done. We are far from the invincible team we once were, but some players and supporters don't seem to understand that. Our players should start to show on the pitch that they want to play for us and do their very best. For at least a year now they usually don't turn up. Gerrard for instance didn't perform in quite a few matches this season. What if Hodgson would have replaced him. The crowd would have been up in arms. Same goes for Carra (and a few others). You are right in a way. Another manager would have fielded our entire reserves/U-18s by now just to show the first teamers that their level of performance is not acceptable. But which manager would have done that?
<p>Just like you Jamie I think Rafa was shit (and still is considering his performance managing a treble winning team). For last season yours is the one site that talk sense. Putting all these facts and lies aside, when you watch the recent games do you not think that the team could have done better had Hodgson deploy the same attacking tactics that he had in the first half of the Chelsea match. It feels to me that we are still in the perilous previous season and still playing negative football. It feels to me that we a getting an extended run of the previous season. All I want, just like all the other fans, is to see Liverpool play attacking football (even if we end up loosing). Don't you want to see that too Jamie?
ReplyDelete</p>
I definitely want to see attacking footballl but you cannot just dismiss the ongoing impact of last season, which was utterly appalling. You can't just play as badly as we did last seaosn and then expect everything to improve within 4 months, especially with the turmoil around the club over the last few months.
ReplyDeleteWeren't the original figures from the Daily Mail? Maybe you should focus on their inaccuracy rather than on a re-tweet?
ReplyDelete"Failing to check the figure and just passing them off as fact to make Hodgson look bad is, as I've stated before, a traitorous betrayal of a Liverpool Manager"
Really Jamie, REALLY? That is a ridiculous over-exaggeration. Your use of languauge, whilst making me laugh, just goes to demonstrate a serious bias caused, I suspect, by your personal animosity towards a certain PT.
Have you emailed the Daily Mail to let them know of their treachery to the world of statistics and recommend that they self-flagellate to remove this dreadful scar from their souls? Thought not.
Oh and in response to the stats:
15 wins in 90 league games (16%)
13 in 80 premier league games (17%)
1 in 7 premier league games managing Liverpool (14%)
We are obviously all deluded about Roy’s away record.
Wasn't this stat originally from the Daily Mail?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't you be better off focussing on them here?
To say that, "Failing to check the figure and just passing them off as fact to make Hodgson look bad is, as I've stated before, a traitorous betrayal of a Liverpool Manager." is a ridiculous over-exaggeration and serves only to demonstrate your animosity towards sections of genuine Liverpool fans.
Have you emailed the Daily Mail to let them know of their 'treachery' to the world of statistics and to implore them to self-flagellate to remove this dreadful scar from their souls? Thought not.
Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteDo you like the sort of football we're playing under Hodgson?
(We're the only Premier League team ever to have less possession than Stoke City in a game. Do you think that's good?)
Do you know why it's happening? Do you think it's making the most of the players we have? Do you think it's suitable for a club like LFC?
Do you even understand the tactics he's playing? Do you understand why they're so antiquated?
Do you know anything about football at all?
Whether Roy has won 21 or 13 games away from home, his brand of football is totally inappropriate for a club like Liverpool. Can you not see that? Or are you just so desperate to be contrary and attract attention?
If improving means winning then it's not what I'm referring to. What I think (really hope this is the case) what most fans would like to see is the team going into matches and play like they want to win instead of just sitting back and allowing opponent to have a go at them.
ReplyDeleteTo play attacking and to lose is better than to defend and hoping to get at least a draw. I really wish for Roy to take on a different mentality on games. I want to see Roy do what Benitez couldn't with a similar team.
And I hope all these pressure will get him to deploy the good attacking football that we see against Chelsea in the first half.
ReplyDeleteIf Liverpool can beat Chelsea playing attacking football then I believe the team can almost definitely beat the likes of Stoke.
It's not a LIE though, it's just A LITTLE wrong. Stop calling us liars Jaimie, it's really not on. Some of us don't have the time to go researching through archives everytime we read a statistic. Please apologise, we're not lying, we just got it SLIGHTLY wrong. The conclusion is the same.
ReplyDelete"some of you so called liverpool 'fans' out there need to catch yourself on. historical statistics are all well and good. and yes, i agree that Mr Hodgson hasnt had the best of records in the past.
ReplyDeletebut so what? what relevance does this prove?? it was in THE PAST"Heres one historical fact for you we have'nt won the league for twenty years and we won't under negative Hodgson all this rubbish about investing in youth When he sold Dalle Valle to his former club and won't give Pacheco a game????"Pacheco, 19, has been frozen out by Hodgson since the League Cup defeat to Northampton and has featured just once in the Premier League – as a sub in the defeat to Man City.
Pacheco was one of the stars of last summer’s European under-19 championship, finishing as the tournament’s top scorer. He is shortlisted for the European ‘Golden Boy’ award organised by Italian newspaper Tuttosport"
The squad are publicly bemoaning his negative tactics when was this THE LIVERPOOL wa, one good win over Chelsea does NOT make a season for gods sake Sunderland beat them.
Looking back over it again, it's really pedantic Jaimie. 24 wins from 105, or 13 wins from 113, there's not really a whole lot of difference there. You're in the wrong saying it's lying. It's not factually correct in that it's out by a mere few games, but not a lie. Not impressed.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you there, but lets get realistic here some of these players are on more money per week than some of us earn in 5 years. Look at Blackpool fancied for the drop (may still happen) but getting good results for pure guts all bar a few in the team at the moment deserve their salary. It's not just the managers fault agreed but you need a good one first
ReplyDeletehow daily mail got 13 out of 105
ReplyDeleteI think they added all games in the Season's that Hodgson partially managed...
at fulham 2008 and blackburn 1999 ,then that gives us 14 wins out of 102... probably forgot to add he's one and only liverpool away league win... and then added the two Europa proper league away 0-0's giving 13 wins out 104 then added one assuming he wouldn't win the next away game.. at spurs
thats 13 out of 105 ... walla !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't see how this article in any way helps RH's case, ok so the original figures were not exactly correct, the ones you have published don't do him any favours either. Not sure what you wanted to achieve here?
ReplyDeleteI think you allow your personal agendas to cloud everything you write sadly and as such I, like most of the people who bother to actually read your work, struggle to take you seriously.
Based on what I read above, I am more certain than ever that RH needs to go, sooner rather than later. So I thank you in that respect, you have cleared it up a little for me.... although I was already pretty sure.
You highlight his very poor away record andd his lack of real experience in English football in the context of his career. Also, Blackburn were expected to be contenders at the time he managed them, no exxcuse for such a poor record there.
He had to deal with player unrest, sure, but ultimately he did so badly and walked out of what was in the end a very unhappy dressing room. Seem familiar at all??
I read your comment up to the point it said 'we are not doing that bad we are only 3 points of 5th place'. I think you are the one who needs catching on my friend.
ReplyDelete<p><span>Jamie you are very diligent with your research which I find interesting and the reason I come here to debate. The figures being circulated are including a period when Roy was only an assistant manager so that’s not his personal record.</span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span>He managed Bristol City for 20 games home and away and won 3 of those.</span>
</p><p><span>I do have a question though or rather would want to hear your opinion.</span>
</p><p><span>In an earlier article you stated that if a player had a serious injury prior to joining the club or was injury prone that made them unsuitable to buy.</span>
</p><p><span>Would you agree that immediate past performances would then apply to how managers are chosen? </span>
</p><p><span>Would you say you would be happy to replace a manager who had an away record that frustrated everyone and rumored to have lost the dressing room with one whose last season brought back 1 win on the road while drawing 7 and losing 11 but was still capped manager of the year and in the prior season won 3 away drawing 8 and losing 8 in his last 2 league campaigns. </span>
</p><p><span>The only time he was sacked, he had lost the dressing at Blackburn and now we have a situation where at least Reina has had to confirm his commitment and we still await Torres, Agger, Johnson and now Pacheco to do the same. Ryan Babel was already warned he had until January so will obviously be as unsettled as he was under the previous management. This may mean there is or has been 6 unsettled players in a 23 man squad if Pacheco was one of the 23 submitted to the league. Now I don’t know what number has to be unsettled before the dressing room is considered lost.</span></p>
So I can't give you direct quotes - but the Agger interview definitely suggests unhappiness and why is the Johnson report likely to be completely made-up? We know Roy openly criticised him, so wouldn't it be natural for him to be upset and unhappy??
ReplyDeleteLooking back at your articles about Benitez alienating players, you claims he did with the likes of Keane, Crouch and Hyypia, and there's no quotes to back it up just your perceived views that he treated them poorly.
Similarly, I feel that with the evidence available to me, Hodgson has upset the likes of Johnson, Agger and Pacheo.
There's further reports know coming out that Pacheo has been left out because he was later for a reserve game - hardly the caring manager we apparently needed after Benitez left.
You'll continue to defend him during the first 6mths. If at that stage the team is still performing poorly and not near 4th - as is likely based on the evidence of the past 13 games, it'll be ok to start criticising him?
ReplyDeleteWhy the arbitary 6mth mark? Why then do those who've been calling for him to go turn from the "rabid, angry mob" (as you put it) to reasonable fans? The situation is still the same.
I'm not really interested in how the figures reflect on Hodgson; I'm just interested in ensuring the truth is out there. The issue here is fans twisting the truth deliberately.
ReplyDeleteBen - the Daily Mail at least made an attempt to be truthful (ebven though their figures were way off!) - The Mail stated that their figures were for League games. Tomkins et al changed it to 'All games in English football'. That was a deliberate change; it makes Hodgson's record look even worse by making out that he's only won 13 away games in all his time in English football.
ReplyDeleteThat is devious and underhand.
But isn't the point in getting a new manager to make things better.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, is there that much difference between 4 months and 6 months?! Why 6 months? Why not 7, or 8, or 5 even?
ReplyDeleteThe fans haven't twist the truth deliberately. The stats were given in the Daily Mail, used on Talksport amongst others. Most of us don't have the time or the incliination to go through every one of Hodgson's games to get the truth. So people have used those "facts" that were readily available. That is not deliberate. Anyway, by giving us the real stats you haven't changed the fact that he has a poor away record, regardless of which team he was managing.
ReplyDeleteanteater, isn't the point in getting a new manager to make things better and not maintain the status quo
ReplyDeleteI think to compare with Benitez and Houllier is a little ill judged. Hodgson knows the premiership, he inherited a squad that were largely accustomed to playing away - many of whom finished second in 08-09.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, he has the most upsettingly defensive approach that the players show no sign of taking to. And how many players has he spoken out about now?
Gary I like your post straight and to the point the fans are not twisting the facts especially singing for Dalglish are the majority of Liverpool fans clueless ? I think not, Hogson is and always be a stop gap until someone else is available, just look how he has remarked on p;ayer performances but is ademement he is not to blame, not only that the club has now brought in Commoli to oversee player aquisition, Hodgson is not eventrusted to do that
ReplyDeleteActually, they have twisted the truth deliberately. The Mail said the folllowing:
ReplyDeleteIn his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws.
Tomkins et al changed that to:
Hodgson has been manager for 105 away games in English Football. He has won 13 of those games.
The difference is obvious: the second version makes it sound like Hodgson's entire career in English football in all competitions has only yielded 13 wins.
That is a deliberate attempt to twist the truth.
The Mail's figures were wrong anyway; 105 league games? It's only 90.
I wan't trying attempting to change the perception of Hodgson's away record; I was just highlighting how some fans are willing to blatantly twist the truth in their rabid mission to denigrate a manager of LFC.
Irrespective of what people think of Hodgson, that sort of thing is not fair. It might seem small to some people, but stuff like that happens all the time.
So Jaimie, based on your figures of 90 league games!
ReplyDeleteHe has won only 1 out every 6 games played!
Drew approx 2 out of every 6 games played!
Lost approx 3 out of every 6 games played!
So based on your figures we can say that approx 5 out of every 6 games played result in either a loss or a draw i.e. failure to win!
I think also that if you produce figures such as 'total unbeaten' where you combine wins and draws, it would also be fair to combine those lost and drawn to produce a figure to represent a failure to win or collect full 3 points?
I'll do the maths!
Roy has failed to win/collect maximum points in 83% 0f his league games!
So approx half of his games in charge have resulted in a loss and approx one third resulted in a draw!
So over a 38 game season based on your averages we can expect somewhere in the region of 6 wins, 14 draws and 18 losses, a total of 32 points!
Although to be fair he should achieve better than that with the squad he has!
* I am not arguing that Hodgson's away record is great; in isolation, it isn't. However, Having said that, his record *is* comparable to teams similar to those Hodgson has managed in England (Liverpool aside). If you're going to put Hodgson's away record in context, you have to compare it to teams like Blackburn, Fulham and Bristol City, not Liverpool, United and Arsenal.
ReplyDeleteYou make an valid point, we should compare Hodgson with other teams similar to teams he had managed.
Hodgson was manager of Fulham from 28th Dec 2007 to end of 2009/10 season. I've compared Fulham in that time with Portsmouth, Wigan, Bolton and Blackburn. I think we can probably agree that those are similar sorts of teams to Fulham
28th Dec 2007 to end of season
Fulham - 10 played - 3 wins
Portsmouth - 9 played - 3 wins
Wigan 9 played - 2 wins
Bolton 9 played- 2 wins
Blackburn 10 played - 4 wins
2008/09 season
Fulham 19 played- 3 wins
Portsmouth - 2 wins
Wigan - 4 wins
Bolton - 4 wins
Blackburn - 4 wins
This season the following teams had worst away records -
West Brom(1 win)
Portsmouth(2 wins),
Newcastle(2 wins)
Man City (2 wins)
Middlesborough(1 win)
(Sunderland had same record with 3 wins)
Newcastle/West Brom/Midds got relegated.
2009/10 season
Fulham - 19 played - 1win
Portsmouth - 2 wins
Wigan - 3 wins
Bolton - 4 wins
Blackburn - 3 wins
This season the following teams had worst away record -
Hull City (0 wins)
West Ham and Burnley (1 win)
Burnley, Hull and Portsmouth got relegated.
In Hodgson's tenure the away wins stats in total for Fulham and other teams are as follows-
Fulham - 14.6%
Portsmouth - 14.8%
Wigan - 19.1%
Blackburn - 22.9%
Bolton - 20.8%
So Fulham under Roy has worst records than Portsmouth(now relegated), Wigan, Blackburn and Bolton.
Now that I've compared it to similar teams he still has a crap away record, worse than the 4 teams of similar standard!
Of course the point is to get better, but at the moment we aren't getting better on the pitch. Why would I try to tell you something else? There are some things that are getting better. We have new owners and a manager who isn't found politicking on a regular basis. That neither means that I think Hodgson is the right man, nor that I think we should sack him now. Things can still get better under Hodgson, but the players have to do their bit, too.
ReplyDeleteAnd 12 points off 1st place!!
ReplyDeleteNo Liverpool team in your lifetime has been so meek and uncreative? How about Liverpool circa 2009-2010 season? You must be extremely young or have a extremely short memory.
ReplyDeleteGood skills. Still doesn't reflect well in him. The reality is also, since he was operating at such a low level and not especially well at that - he should never have been given our job in the first place. Substandard management, even at his reduced level at fulham. Not a Liverpool standard manager but sure, give him more support and time to regress us further. We can now also add Pacheco to the 'hodgson effect'. FOR.
ReplyDeleteJamie, I am not a Benitez supporter and therefore this is not a pro-Benitez tirade but based on your percentages about Roy's away record and applying this to our remaining away games (win 2, draw 5, lose 5) and assuming we win all our remaining home games we would only finish on 66 points-this is unlikely to be enough for fourth don't you think?
ReplyDelete(and please dont ask me to prove this because all you need to do is go back through all your posts and check my comments) I ve gave u a list of facts in your earlier posts which you refuse to comment on.....
ReplyDeleteHowever, also Roy is doing his mistakes, in my view.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that We're focusing the debate in two wrong directions:
1) Comparation Rafa Vs Roy
Different team, different conditions.
If the comparation is used in order to say that Roy needs time ok, well, everyone could be agree with You Jamie because there are so many fans don't want to see the Club in turm oil in November.
2) "Sack Roy band wagon" debate
It's a terrible agenda which don't give the possibility to reflect on performances in a rational way. <span>And this is a stupid faction, because so many pedigree - managers out there don't want to risk their reputation now, when They whould inherit a team which is struggling on the pitch and need of strong reinforcements in a difficult transfer window of over rated prices</span>.
However, it remain the fact that Roy is doing errors.
Meireles out of his natural position for first, no pace on wingers, when the Club have natural young wingers of quality like Ecclestone & David Amoo.
Roy fixed a natural defensive system which is in main view the best system for our rooster (too many slow defenders) but Roy's counter attacks doesn't work because he has not organized the side on the flanks.
If We want totalk about Roy's errors, this is a strong point.
Apologise.
ReplyDeleteSo now even calling you pedantic gets you censored!!
ReplyDeleteDefinition - overly concerned with minute details or formalisms. Is that offensive??
And your article proves that it's true.
I couldn't give a toss what RH has done for previous clubs.
ReplyDeleteI care about what RH is doing NOW and this is what matters.
I couldn't give a toss about comparing RH with RB because it is meaningless... it has no relevance to what is happening the pitch NOW.
There will always be people who believe everything they read, well thats their problem and nothing anybody says will change that.
For me people who believe blinding what the Media says is not a true supporter.
What matter is what is happening now.
Yes I believe a manager needs time, at least 1 season, the worry is when you do not see any real progress you begin to wonder where we will be after a season.
With the squad of players we have we should not be mid table, unless you are telling me that the likes of Sunderland, Bolton, Newcastle, Stoke have better squads then we do.
That is my concern. Its been 13 games and I have seen no improvement in the way we are playing.
There appears to be a lack passion, a lack of drive to will games.
As I have said before, I can handle losing but not in the manner we have been losing.
We were outplayed by Everton, Stoke, Blackpool etc etc.. We were not unlucky, they were not open games with attractive football with well made goals, we were simply outplayed and outclassed and that is worrying.
Whilst I will maintain that a manager will always need 1 season as no manager can turn around a team in a few months, the lack of any apparent progress is very worrying and I like many other fans are worried were we will be at the end of the season.
Whilst we keep playing the way we do, even the most loyal of fans will begin to panic.
<span>I couldn't give a toss what RH has done for previous clubs.
ReplyDeleteI care about what RH is doing NOW and this is what matters.
I couldn't give a toss about comparing RH with RB because it is meaningless... it has no relevance to what is happening on the pitch NOW.
There will always be people who believe everything they read, well thats their problem and nothing anybody says will change that.
For me people who believe blinding what the Media says is not a true supporter as we all know that the majority of what is said in the press is complete and total crap.
Its based on rumours and opinions, not facts.
What really matters is what is happening now.
Yes I believe a manager needs time, at least 1 season, the worry is when you do not see any real progress you begin to wonder where we will be after a season.
With the squad of players we have we should not be mid table, unless you are telling me that the likes of Sunderland, Bolton, Newcastle, Stoke have better squads then we do.
That is my concern. Its been 13 games and I have seen no improvement in the way we are playing.
There appears to be a lack passion, a lack of drive to win games.
As I have said before, I can handle losing but not in the manner we have been losing.
We were outplayed by Everton, Stoke, Blackpool etc etc.. We were not unlucky, they were not open games with attractive football with well made goals, we were simply outplayed and outclassed and that is worrying.
Whilst I will maintain that a manager will always need 1 season as no manager can turn around a team in a few months without spending millions upon millions of pounds, the lack of any apparent progress is very worrying and I like many other fans are worried were we will be at the end of the season.
Whilst we keep playing the way we do, even the most loyal of fans will begin to panic.
Also the amount of media gaffs being made by RH does not help matters.</span>
Jaimie Kanwar, a true LFC supporter and not one of the traitorous mob who do not have a clue what's it about being a true LFC fan.
ReplyDeleteJaimie consistently deleting the posts where I am pointing out to him that his own stats are WRONG!
ReplyDeleteNot sure why this classes as abuse!!
If he wants to know why they are incorrect then all he has to do is ask.
Vas, your post is valid and your point is good.
ReplyDeleteExcatly like You I think that the manager needs time to fix things because it's not possible to overwhelm in a night, but remains the fact that some Roy's choices are wrongs.
On Glen Johnson' affair: although in my view Roy is right to rock a player, WHo has enormous potential but He's underperformed actually, remember that dirty laundry never goes out in public.
However, for now panic decisions are unfit, because We have had good moments, especially with Chelsea, 2nd half against Blackburn, and 2nd half against Naples, when Roy did a good decisions in bringing Nathan Ecclestone on left wing.
The lad is ok in my view: He has class, pace, speed & creativity on left wing, and one of the Roy's main errors is to pick Raul Meireles out of his natural position, instead of using players like Eccleston on the flanks.
However, Roy's decision to bring in Dirk Kuyt in offensive Role had good effects for the team.
For now, it's better to avoid quick decision, and give proper back to Roy, but things must improve.
We should focus on the pitch, instead of comparison Rafa - Roy which are totally meaning less.
Agger now wants to leave.
ReplyDeleteJohnson now wants to leave.
Pacheco now wants to leave.
Reina has queried his future at the club.
Gerrard has queried his future at the club.
Torres has queried his future at the club.
He loaned out Aquilani.
He brought in Christian Poulsen.
He brought in Paul Konchesky.
We were beaten by Blackpool, Northampton, Stoke and...Everton.
Enough is enough,
That's right - just believe everything the media feeds you.
ReplyDeleteShow me quotes from any of the players you've mentioned about them wanting to leave.
Gerrard, Torres and Reina have NOT queried THEIR futures at the club. They have queried the DIRECTION of the club. That is totally different. John Henry stated:
I've met a number of our players and... the question they have asked, rightfully so, is whether or not the club is going in the right direction. They all want that.<span>
Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/847373-pepe-reina-and-steven-gerrard-queried-liverpool-future-henry#ixzz15XnmPmIo</span>
You are precisely the kind of kneejerk, unreasonable fan I write about; someone who exaggerates things to make them look worse, and tried to be nas negative as possible for no credible reason.
If fans that are in a minority spread lies about a manger's away record, or any other kind of untrue media nonsense, why get irritated? I would have thought the true facts about our team & its manager would the primary focus, IMO.
ReplyDeleteAnd even from those who've posted here, I think we can see that most people don't care about the mistaken statistics; what they care about are the true facts.
You were talking about the managerial options we had at the end of last season and so was I. Pellegrini wanted the job and he was rumoured to be one of the preferred candidates but he was turned down in the end because they decided to go English.
ReplyDeleteI think it is very unfair for you to take Rafa's worst season and 7th place finish and keep using it against him. Do you believe had we not fired him we would be in the same position, or should I say, had Rafa still been our manager this season do you believe we would have finished outside the top 4? In my opinion we would still have Mascherano and looking at the results around us, we may well have been at or near the top challenging now. When we had all our players fit last season we performed very well and usually won if my memory serves me well.