After yesterday's defeat to Stoke City, the knives are out for Roy Hodgson again. Despite the exaggerated doom and gloom, I still have total support for Liverpool's beleaguered manager. Why? Because it is my JOB as a fan to support ANY Liverpool Manager in his first season. I refuse to be part of a rabid, unreasonable mob baying for the blood of a man who has been in the job for only 4 months. It has always been that way for me, and I am not going to change now.
The inaugural league seasons of both Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier were utterly abysmal. Benitez lost 14 league games and finished 5th; Houllier lost 11 and finished 7th. At no point did I call for either manager to be sacked, even though many of the league performances were embarrassingly sub-par. I was critical of both managers but I ultimately supported them to the hilt, appreciating that it would take time for them to implement their ideas. The same thinking applies to Hodgson, who has undertaken the hardest LFC job since Bill Shankly.
As I have argued all season, there are many legitimate reasons why the first part of this season has not been the best:
* Only 3 (barely competitive) pre-season games this year. Typically, the club will have 5-7 games to prepare for a new season. Combine that with lots of players returning from the World Cup and you can see how this could have an impact on preparation.
* Hodgson took over on 1 July 2010; Liverpool's season kicked off on August 5th, which gave him just over a month of preparation time. That's not much time at all, is it?
* To add insult to injury, Hodgson's momentum and time with the team has been disrupted by THREE International breaks since the season began. Ordinarily, that wouldn't be a problem, but in a World Cup year, with limited preparation time and a non-competitive pre-season campaign, time with the team to get ideas across is essential.
* Boardroom civil war erupted soon after Hodgson arrived, bringing with it an intense media circus that affected the players. Hodgson admitted this in public.
* To compound this, we then had distracting court cases involving the future of the club being played out in public. In my view, such things should not affect players but the reality may well have been different.
* The squad left by Benitez was massively demotivated after last season. With no Champions League football, it was always going to be difficult to motivate certain players in the squad, and that has definitely proven to be the case.
I could go on but what's the point? There is a large section of fans that are desperate for Hodgson to fail, and they will not be happy until he is sacked. Even during our recent 4 game winning streak, these fans were not happy, and some were still complaining instead of getting behind the manager and the team.
If Benitez was still in charge, everything I have stated above would be endlessly used to excuse poor performances. It was *exactly* that way last season, when crap performance in every competition was blamed on Hicks, Gillett, the Ownership uncertainty etc. The same fans will not give Hodgson any benefit of the doubt for the same problems though, which is horribly hypocritical.
Last week, I called the treatment of Hodgson a 'traitorous betrayal' and my feelings have not changed at all. And when comparing Hodgson's first 22 games to Benitez's, the reason it IS a betrayal is immediately apparent.
BENITEZ vs. HODGSON: First 22 Games Comparison
ANALYSIS
* Hodgson has lost FEWER games than Benitez in his first 22 games (Benitez 8; Hodgson 6)
* Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 11; Hodgson 10)
* Benitez has a slightly better record in the league, but why should that take precedence overall? What about Europe? Does that just not matter at all? Does overall performance not matter? Yes it does.
* Benitez has only 4 more points than Hodgson in the league after 13 games. Why is that such a significant difference?
* In his first 13 games, Benitez played many of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace and Middlesbrough. Despite a comparatively easy start, Benitez's team could only manager 20 points after 13 games.
* Spurs and Man City were also poor teams back then (In the preceding season, Spurs finished 14th and Man City finished 16th). The only real tests Benitez's team faced were against Man United and Chelsea, and both games were lost.
* In his first 13 league games, Hodgson's team has faced Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United and Man City. However, unlike 2004-5, City is now a quality team with limitless transfer spending ability and squad full of expensive players.
* Hodgson's team has played the likes of Wigan, Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton, Birmingham and West Brom, but these teams are arguably superior in quality than the dross Benitez's side played in 2004. The basic point here is that Hodgson has had a much harder start to contend with than Benitez did.
* Hodgson's team has also played Everton, which is always a tough game no matter what season. The game was lost, but Liverpool has lost to Everton many times in the past; losing against them is no disgrace given the passion involved in the game. Benitez also lost at Goodison in his first season.
* It is widely accepted that the quality of the Premier League has improved in quality since 2004; it is also clear that the gap between the so-called smaller teams and the top 4 is closing. This was especially evident last season, with the top teams losing more games than normal on the way to the title.
* Fans go on about the performances under Hodgson being poor; the same was true under Benitez, but fans do not have the fairness to admit this. I remember (amongst others) poor performances against Bolton, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Chelsea and Man United.
* Hodgson's European record is admirable: 6 victories out of 8, and no defeats. Why should this be disregarded?! Is it Hodgson's fault Liverpool is in the Europa League? The typical excuse used by fans is that Benitez was in the Champions League, so the games were harder. What does that prove? If we're talking about comparative quality of opposition, Benitez's team lost AT HOME to the mighty Graz in the CL qualifying phase.
* No matter how fans try and twist it, Trabzonspor, Steaua Bucharest and Napoli are not poor teams. Trabzonspor finished 5th in the Turkish league in 2009-10; Steaua Bucharest is the most successful team in Romanian history, and Napoli are currently 3rd in Serie A, just two points off the top (ahead of Benitez's Inter Milan).
The reason I make this comparison with Benitez's first season is to illustrate the utter hypocrisy of fans. Despite having very similar overall records after 22 games, were fans calling for Benitez's head? Were they professionally and personally denigrating the man? Were they actively hoping for him to fail? NO. Yet fans are calling for Hodgson to be sacked now whilst completely ignoring the context of his reign.
I do not blindly support Hodgson. He has made mistakes; he is accountable for the poor performances of the team; he deserves and should expect criticism for mistakes. However, he DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE BETRAYED (after only 4 months in the job) by so-called 'fans', many of whom preach the (hollow) mantra of 'You'll Never Walk Alone'.
Why is Hodgson abandoned and allowed to 'Walk Alone'?
As I have illustrated, his record is on a par with Benitez's so far, and is actually better in some ways (better Euro record; fewer games lost etc). If fans had any sense of fairness they would look at the context and appreciate how difficult Hodgson's job has been.
Everyone is entitled to their view, and this is mine: Calling for a Liverpool manager to sacked after only 4 months is unforgivable. The position of Liverpool Manager is bigger than Hodgson; it's an institution in and of itself, and should be respected. Instead, fans have vomited all over it in a sickening display of close-minded ignorance.
Someone told me yesterday that I was 'a disgrace because I was still supporting Hodgson'. When it did become a disgrace to support a Liverpool manager in his first 4 months in the job?! Such an ignorant attitude is a prime example of how far the standards of fandom have fallen.
If Hodgson had been at the club for 6 years and had just led the team through a run of 1 win in 10 games, with 4 defeats in a row, and 7 defeats out of 8 overall during that run (like Benitez last season from September to November) then maybe I would be calling for his head too.
I've said several times this season that I don't believe Hodgson is the right man in the long term. Just because I support him doesn't mean I find the performance of the team acceptable. Far from it. Improvement needs to happen, but whilst Hodgson tries to achieve that, I'm willing to give him the time. As I've argued previously, on the 1st January 2011, Liverpool:
* Must be in the top 4, or within touching distance (i.e. within 3 - 5 points)
* Must have massively improved the style of play/performances.
At present, Liverpool are only 3 points from 5th and 6 points from 4th, which is definitely within touching distance. With 6 and half months of the season to go, and 75 points still to play for, writing off Hodgson and this team now is just ridiculous in the extreme.
I still support Hodgson because I respect the role of Liverpool Manager, and I accept that 4 months is NOT ENOUGH TIME to properly judge a manager. It's that simple. And I have not just made an empty statement; I have illustrated WHY I think this way with lots of examples above, and countless other examples in various articles since the start of the season.
Supporting the manager in his first 4-6 months = supporting the CLUB. IMO, calling for a Liverpool manager to be sacked after 4 months = Anti-LFC.
Jaimie Kanwar
The inaugural league seasons of both Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier were utterly abysmal. Benitez lost 14 league games and finished 5th; Houllier lost 11 and finished 7th. At no point did I call for either manager to be sacked, even though many of the league performances were embarrassingly sub-par. I was critical of both managers but I ultimately supported them to the hilt, appreciating that it would take time for them to implement their ideas. The same thinking applies to Hodgson, who has undertaken the hardest LFC job since Bill Shankly.
As I have argued all season, there are many legitimate reasons why the first part of this season has not been the best:
* Only 3 (barely competitive) pre-season games this year. Typically, the club will have 5-7 games to prepare for a new season. Combine that with lots of players returning from the World Cup and you can see how this could have an impact on preparation.
* Hodgson took over on 1 July 2010; Liverpool's season kicked off on August 5th, which gave him just over a month of preparation time. That's not much time at all, is it?
* To add insult to injury, Hodgson's momentum and time with the team has been disrupted by THREE International breaks since the season began. Ordinarily, that wouldn't be a problem, but in a World Cup year, with limited preparation time and a non-competitive pre-season campaign, time with the team to get ideas across is essential.
* Boardroom civil war erupted soon after Hodgson arrived, bringing with it an intense media circus that affected the players. Hodgson admitted this in public.
* To compound this, we then had distracting court cases involving the future of the club being played out in public. In my view, such things should not affect players but the reality may well have been different.
* The squad left by Benitez was massively demotivated after last season. With no Champions League football, it was always going to be difficult to motivate certain players in the squad, and that has definitely proven to be the case.
I could go on but what's the point? There is a large section of fans that are desperate for Hodgson to fail, and they will not be happy until he is sacked. Even during our recent 4 game winning streak, these fans were not happy, and some were still complaining instead of getting behind the manager and the team.
If Benitez was still in charge, everything I have stated above would be endlessly used to excuse poor performances. It was *exactly* that way last season, when crap performance in every competition was blamed on Hicks, Gillett, the Ownership uncertainty etc. The same fans will not give Hodgson any benefit of the doubt for the same problems though, which is horribly hypocritical.
Last week, I called the treatment of Hodgson a 'traitorous betrayal' and my feelings have not changed at all. And when comparing Hodgson's first 22 games to Benitez's, the reason it IS a betrayal is immediately apparent.
BENITEZ vs. HODGSON: First 22 Games Comparison
ANALYSIS
* Hodgson has lost FEWER games than Benitez in his first 22 games (Benitez 8; Hodgson 6)
* Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 11; Hodgson 10)
* Benitez has a slightly better record in the league, but why should that take precedence overall? What about Europe? Does that just not matter at all? Does overall performance not matter? Yes it does.
* Benitez has only 4 more points than Hodgson in the league after 13 games. Why is that such a significant difference?
* In his first 13 games, Benitez played many of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace and Middlesbrough. Despite a comparatively easy start, Benitez's team could only manager 20 points after 13 games.
* Spurs and Man City were also poor teams back then (In the preceding season, Spurs finished 14th and Man City finished 16th). The only real tests Benitez's team faced were against Man United and Chelsea, and both games were lost.
* In his first 13 league games, Hodgson's team has faced Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United and Man City. However, unlike 2004-5, City is now a quality team with limitless transfer spending ability and squad full of expensive players.
* Hodgson's team has played the likes of Wigan, Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton, Birmingham and West Brom, but these teams are arguably superior in quality than the dross Benitez's side played in 2004. The basic point here is that Hodgson has had a much harder start to contend with than Benitez did.
* Hodgson's team has also played Everton, which is always a tough game no matter what season. The game was lost, but Liverpool has lost to Everton many times in the past; losing against them is no disgrace given the passion involved in the game. Benitez also lost at Goodison in his first season.
* It is widely accepted that the quality of the Premier League has improved in quality since 2004; it is also clear that the gap between the so-called smaller teams and the top 4 is closing. This was especially evident last season, with the top teams losing more games than normal on the way to the title.
* Fans go on about the performances under Hodgson being poor; the same was true under Benitez, but fans do not have the fairness to admit this. I remember (amongst others) poor performances against Bolton, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Chelsea and Man United.
* Hodgson's European record is admirable: 6 victories out of 8, and no defeats. Why should this be disregarded?! Is it Hodgson's fault Liverpool is in the Europa League? The typical excuse used by fans is that Benitez was in the Champions League, so the games were harder. What does that prove? If we're talking about comparative quality of opposition, Benitez's team lost AT HOME to the mighty Graz in the CL qualifying phase.
* No matter how fans try and twist it, Trabzonspor, Steaua Bucharest and Napoli are not poor teams. Trabzonspor finished 5th in the Turkish league in 2009-10; Steaua Bucharest is the most successful team in Romanian history, and Napoli are currently 3rd in Serie A, just two points off the top (ahead of Benitez's Inter Milan).
The reason I make this comparison with Benitez's first season is to illustrate the utter hypocrisy of fans. Despite having very similar overall records after 22 games, were fans calling for Benitez's head? Were they professionally and personally denigrating the man? Were they actively hoping for him to fail? NO. Yet fans are calling for Hodgson to be sacked now whilst completely ignoring the context of his reign.
I do not blindly support Hodgson. He has made mistakes; he is accountable for the poor performances of the team; he deserves and should expect criticism for mistakes. However, he DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE BETRAYED (after only 4 months in the job) by so-called 'fans', many of whom preach the (hollow) mantra of 'You'll Never Walk Alone'.
Why is Hodgson abandoned and allowed to 'Walk Alone'?
As I have illustrated, his record is on a par with Benitez's so far, and is actually better in some ways (better Euro record; fewer games lost etc). If fans had any sense of fairness they would look at the context and appreciate how difficult Hodgson's job has been.
Everyone is entitled to their view, and this is mine: Calling for a Liverpool manager to sacked after only 4 months is unforgivable. The position of Liverpool Manager is bigger than Hodgson; it's an institution in and of itself, and should be respected. Instead, fans have vomited all over it in a sickening display of close-minded ignorance.
Someone told me yesterday that I was 'a disgrace because I was still supporting Hodgson'. When it did become a disgrace to support a Liverpool manager in his first 4 months in the job?! Such an ignorant attitude is a prime example of how far the standards of fandom have fallen.
If Hodgson had been at the club for 6 years and had just led the team through a run of 1 win in 10 games, with 4 defeats in a row, and 7 defeats out of 8 overall during that run (like Benitez last season from September to November) then maybe I would be calling for his head too.
I've said several times this season that I don't believe Hodgson is the right man in the long term. Just because I support him doesn't mean I find the performance of the team acceptable. Far from it. Improvement needs to happen, but whilst Hodgson tries to achieve that, I'm willing to give him the time. As I've argued previously, on the 1st January 2011, Liverpool:
* Must be in the top 4, or within touching distance (i.e. within 3 - 5 points)
* Must have massively improved the style of play/performances.
At present, Liverpool are only 3 points from 5th and 6 points from 4th, which is definitely within touching distance. With 6 and half months of the season to go, and 75 points still to play for, writing off Hodgson and this team now is just ridiculous in the extreme.
I still support Hodgson because I respect the role of Liverpool Manager, and I accept that 4 months is NOT ENOUGH TIME to properly judge a manager. It's that simple. And I have not just made an empty statement; I have illustrated WHY I think this way with lots of examples above, and countless other examples in various articles since the start of the season.
Supporting the manager in his first 4-6 months = supporting the CLUB. IMO, calling for a Liverpool manager to be sacked after 4 months = Anti-LFC.
Jaimie Kanwar
Benetiz was also getting stick at the begining but had the champions league run to save himself, unfortunately winning games in the Europa means nothing. My only problem with Roy is his constant playing players out of position and not playing proper width. If he doesnt like Babel etc then pick Amoo, Ince or even Sterling. Look at Villa with all that youth and how well they did yesterday. His tactics are negative where he wants the team to sit back and soak pressure and then hit them on the break when we dont have any pace other than Torres.
ReplyDeleteHave you actually been to any matches this season? We're infinitely worse than Benitez's first few months, and we won't get better. Hodgson will not change.
ReplyDelete<span>It is only the job of a fan to support a manager in their first season eh? <span> *DONT_KNOW* <span> Can I have a set of these rules as to how fans are supposed to act, or is it just a live document that you continue to add and amend to as you see fit??</span></span></span>
ReplyDelete<span>I have to admit though, you do make me chuckle sometimes <span> :-D
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That is obviously MY OPINION. That is clearly stated in the article. And I didn't say 'only' in the first season', so stop twisting my words. I said that it's my job as a fan to support ANY Liverpool manager in their first season, and that is what I have always done. What you choose to do is down to you.
ReplyDeleteSorry mate but your lengthy rambling is getting tedious.
ReplyDeleteJust like Liverpool under Roy Hodgson.
I don't think he's ever been to a game mate.
ReplyDeletePlease explain who the performances this season are 'infinitely' worse that in Benitez's first season. That is just a meaningless soundbyte. The fact is Benitez lost more games than Hodgson in his first 22.
ReplyDeleteThen don't visit this site! if you or anyone else doesn't like what I write then go elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteThe squad Benitez inherited was a million times weaker than the squad Hodgson inherited. What planet are you on ? Are you actually watching any of liverpools games under Hodgson ? We haven't played high tempo, attacking football once. Every away game involves sitting on the edge of our own box with 2 banks of four. You havent got a clue about football if you think Hodgson is good enough for liverpool
ReplyDeleteBebunking a myth..... that Jamie Kanwar is a Liverpool Fan
ReplyDeleteYou really are a beaut lad. You cant call yourself a fan if you cant see he is ruining the club.
ReplyDeleteLong ball, negative, uninspired football.
Hahahahahahahhahahahahahaha, what a load of bollocks. Our style of play this season has been completely rubbish, and it won't change until Roy's gone.
ReplyDeleteyou go on about Benitez's record of last season in which a season he was sacked and compare it to Hodgsons and say its the relatively the same(although more losses in Europe) so by that logic Hodgson should be sacked? no? >:o
ReplyDeleteHave you been to any games this season?
ReplyDeleteThe statistics only give one side of the story. How about the quality of football we are playing? Against Wigan and Stoke (the two most recent games) we played two lines of 4 sittign deep and inviting the opposition on to us. The negativity of these tactics, the insistence on playign long balls from defence and the seeming lack of direction from Hodgson are driving most fans to the brink.
Hodgson AND Benitez are shit managers! we finished 2nd DESPITE of Benitez NOT because of him!, Hodgson OUT!!!!!!........Rijkkard IN!
ReplyDeleteYes, a squad containing Gerrard, Carragher, Hyypia, Henchoz, Riise, Kewell, Hamann, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock etc was weak. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Houllier's side finished 4th and qualified for the CL; Benitez's squad finished 7th. How can a team that finished 4th and then won the CL 12 months later be weaker than a team that finished 7th and didn't even qualify for the CL?!
ReplyDeleteThis is another load of drivel by an author with nothing interesting to write. Did you used to play professional football, at what level of international football did you rise to? Have you been involved in football management long? If not NOBODY is interested in your personal opinion!! The s***you talk here is the inane ramblings of someone who supports a team of also rans! Maybe you should support Bolton or WBA as this isnt the defeatist attitude of all that still is great about Liverpool and their fan base. You so called 'journos' make me sick with the crap youre allowed to publish in any other sector no-one could get away with such factually inept rubbish.
ReplyDeleteNext time keep your thoughts to yourself and we will concentrate on reading the mindset of people who actually know what they are talking about.
Good luck to you and your boys at the Reebok this season!
Joker!
Err...excuse me, but one is the Champions League and another is the Europa League. 4 more pts now means we would be in 5 place at the moment and 2 behind 4th place. The diff between success and failure is a fine line and sorry to say, roy is behind that line. And your comparison of Europe....even if roy wins the Europa League, he would still lose on that front to Benitez. And by the way, by asking Roy to be sack is not hypocritical and has nothing to do with people's choice to respect Benitez. Hypocritical would be wanting to see roy go but act otherwise. You can use the word 'unfair' though i don't think we are being unfair; but pool fans' action cannot be described as hypocritical in English or maybe as a Chinese my understanding of the word hypocrisy is wrong. Not sure if you post this though. on both ends of your comparison, RB beats RH 2-0. Regards and chill it my friend. YNWA
ReplyDeleteJamie - You come across as a stats fan more than a football fan..
ReplyDeleteI have grave concerns entrusting Hodgson with whatever funds are made available in January when we have only one quality forward in Torres and he blows the Mascerano money on Poulson and Mereiles.
ReplyDeleteNeiher player offers much in way of a goal threat or creativity and my only hope is Comolli can make inroads with young quality attack mnded players.
1 away win in 26 for Roy...a shocking stat.
ReplyDelete<span>Because it is my JOB as a fan to support ANY Liverpool Manager "in his first season". </span>
ReplyDelete<span>Where did I twist any of your words?? <span> =-O </span></span>
<span><span><span>I'll always follow my own train of thought, regardless of what you or anybody else says - just would be interested to hear the rest of your theories on the responsibilities of a fan...</span></span></span>
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So what can Hodgson do to match Benitez's preformance in the first year? Win Europa League? It's not winning Champions League and if we take a look at that first season when Benitez came, Liverpool lost Owen, it would be as if Torres had left.
ReplyDeleteBenitez had bigger injury crisis than Hodson has now.
I'm not here to save Benitez's neck, I'm glad he left, he had no man-managment skills or any knowlege on how to promote young players.
But I say out with Hodgson and get someone alse, if not Hiddink than at least O'Neill, he seemed to know what he was doing in Aston Villa, made their averige players in to expensive players.
Jaimie, what do you suggest happens if we are not within touching distance of 4th place or the style of play hasn't improved come Jan 11? The majority of Liverpool fans are patient and it maybe too early in your opinion to be calling for Roy's head at this stage, but Chelsea aside, there hasn't been too many plus points this season and Roy does seem out of his depth. We need 3 or 4 new top players in January and if our form continues as it is, i can't see too many top players wanting to sign for a team who look like they might be involved in an end of season battle to qualify for the europa league, Liverpool FC deserve better than that .
ReplyDeleteThis site is called Liverl-Kop? Get onto the Kop on a match day after we have been kicked by a team in the relegation zone and repeat this drivel. Don't forget to write your will 1st.
ReplyDelete<span>Hodgson's win percentage is now down to 30% for 13 games or 1/3rd of the season... His points return is spot on for his average at all top flight teams and that is 1.2pts per game... or put it another way 45pts in a season.
ReplyDeleteSorry but I re-watched all our games this week, analysing every one of them and pausing to see what options where open to us pe rpass, or run off the ball etc... I then looked at all the stats and it is shocking. Possession wise in most games we aren't even breaking the 40% mark. Territory wise, we spend most of it camped on our own 18 yard box and pass completion wise is woefully shocking as a team... in fact the amount of passes is 1/2 of what we did last term in ever game... Add to this we are creating less than half the chances we did last season.... have scored less than half the goals and we are allowing the oppo more than double the chances then last season and conceeding for fun states its own story...
Now for speaking out [not ridiculing], just stating the truth, facts and stats and being able to understand what is happening in our games and working out that our wins were UN BELIEVEABLY FORTUITOUS and we could easily have lost them, as none were convincing wins where we dominated... That has made me realise that the likes of me has to speak out and do so and do it with conviction.
We are in danger of just staving off relegation, but that is that... In the meantime we will lose players we want to retain the services of and we will also fail to attract the players we want.
Mark my words, the truth is doing the rounds over certain players at the Club and already there are players who wouldn't want to come to us just based on those stories and equally because they see how players are abused by the media, super-pundtis and ex-players... fucking rods have been created that will long see the club suffer... and mark my words they are suffering.
Now is the time to act... I as was one of the first to speak out and yet their are those who think because I stated I am sick of Roy's tactics that I am childish. Nope what is childish is allowing a man to get away with such tactics that even a 4year old can do better than.
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So - who else wants to be banned?
ReplyDeleteI am sick of Superfans with a superiority complext turning up asking questions like 'Have you been to any games this season', las if that's the only way someone can have a valid opinion of the team, completely ignoring the fact that 99% of the fanbase is locationally incapable of attending games. Whether I go to games or not is my business; I don't feel the need to share that info with people are it's none of their business. Anyone who posts crap like that will be banned.
And anyone who posts derogatory comments/insults are part of their post will also be banned.
Make your points in the right way. If you can't, you're not welcome on this site. And if you don't like that policy, leave and go elsewhere.
Listen mate... Ain't even bothered of reading your statistics really... Have you even switched TV on? Guest not... Comparing Rafa with Hodgson... The first thing you're doing wrong is you compare EUROPE... Under Rafa the first European games we where playing in the Champions League not a team in Macedonia where David Ngog looked like Maradona at his best... So please just cut this pile of bullshit
ReplyDeleteJamie, I know that part of your ploy to be dramatic ("traitorous betrayal"???) is meant to generate more hits on your site - can't blame you for that. but really in the long run, people will soon realise you are nothing more than an empty vessel if you continue like this. comparing benitez's stats in the champions league vs hodgson's in europa is like comparing apples and oranges.
ReplyDeleteand frankly, i believe the fans are calling for hodgson's head based on the state of play, not the results. hodgson has just called stoke a "strong team"? certainly won't hear that from fergie, wenger or even redknapp.
please there have been articles that I thought you did a real good job, but continuing this route will just destroy your credibility. keep a rein on your dramatics and it would put you in good stead.
No - you said the following:
ReplyDeleteIt is only the job of a fan to support a manager in their first season eh?<span></span>
That is not what I argued in the article at all. If you're going to paraphrase me then be accurate.
Listen mate... Ain't even bothered of reading your statistics really... Have you even switched TV on? Guest not... Comparing Rafa with Hodgson... The first thing you're doing wrong is you compare EUROPE... Under Rafa the first European games we where playing in the Champions League not a team in Macedonia where David Ngog looked like Maradona at his best... So please just cut this pile of bullshit<span>
ReplyDelete</span>
Jamie, get a clue lad. Comparing a team that needed rebuilding with one that needed tweaking is a non starter.
ReplyDeleteYou're too tied up in the irrlevant details. It's not a Europa League vs CL competition. The hypocrisy is that Benitez had a dodgy record in his first 22 games, with lots of poor performances and more games lost, but people were not calling for him to be sacked. Now, Hodgson has a similar record, in harder circumstances, with an arguably worse squad, and people are calling for him to be sacked. As I said, hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point of that utterly pointless comment? I use stats to back up my argument. I don't do what most people do and that's just assert somethinhg without evidence. If you don't like my approach don't come to this site.
ReplyDeleteWhat is different though for me is that Rafa was new to Premier League so fans had more patience whereas Roy has years of experience in the Premiership so should know what to expect but he still thinks he is at Fulham and I for one have no faith and for the 1st time agree with anyone who says that he should not be given anymore time, his mini revival has fallen flat in the last two games and with any manager we expect to beat West Ham next so he cannot win fans over unless he gets us to go away and look like at team capable of winning and cannot see it happening.
ReplyDeleteThis is a prime example fo what I'm talking about. Why do you only look at league performance? Do none of the other games count? You choose league because it suits your argument. it's 13 games! Big friggin deal. After 13 games, Benitez only had a 46% win%. Is that good enough?! Would it have been fair to condemn him for that back then? of course not, because it's only 13 games.
ReplyDeleteOverall, Hodgson's win percentage after 22 games is 45%. Benitez's was 50%. barely any difference at all.
You and others are making a deliberate effort to pick out anything you can to put Hodgson in a bad light. You don't know the meaning of the word 'fair.
wont be coming back to this site. you dont have a clue mate.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should *think* before you write. I do this for hits?! Why, exactly? how does that benefit me? It must be the massive amount of advertising I have on this site, right? Oh, i forgot: there is no advertising. I guess the fact I want the hits so much explains why, in the last year, I've taken over 6 months off from writing on this site. Yes, it's all about the hits.
ReplyDeleteStop whining about my approach - if you don't like it, there are dozens of other LFC sites to visit.
There's a difference between blind devotion and being a fan.
ReplyDeleteYou're comparing the first 22 games, and if you look at Benitez, he won the majority of games against the mediocre teams in the EPL. He beat Man City, WBA, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Crystal Palace. Look at Hodgson, he's lost to Stoke, Blackpool, Everton, we had horrid draws against Birmingham and Wigan because of crap tactics.
You're supposed to be critical of Liverpool, isn't that what your masthead says? Critical Realism? So why don't you be? Critic last nights game, or why Hodgson decided to sit back against Wigan when the team was attacking so well.You always talk about the "Liverpool way", yet you ignore what Hodgson says to the media and how ridiculous he sounds at times, but you bash Benitez the second he says something.
Instead of criticizing the fans, criticise the team and the manager. Stop trying to insult and put down the fans, you're sounding condecending and arrogant, when you're no better than the fansites you put down.
I enjoy this blog, but lately it seems that you're trying to prove something, that you're always right and everyone else is wrong. That's not the Liverpool way.
Yes, a team that needed so much rebuilding that it won the CL and then finished with 80 points in the season after.
ReplyDeleteYou are just parroting unfounded cliches that you probably heard on an LFC message board. Do you even have the ability to think critically?
Thank god for that! I don't want people like you on this site.
ReplyDeleteWell you can't say that you believe that it your job as a fan to support a manager as long as they remain in the role for obvious reasons, so there must be a reason that you put a time limit in your statement statement right? As such, my statement does accurately reflect yours.
ReplyDeleteif you stop using news now - you would do us all a favour. Furthermore, last season we drew with Stoke and really should have won. With a team that didnt have Torres nor Gerrard. This year was by far a straonger team which are simply not performing. While it may well have been time for Rafa to go - at least with rafa we controlled the middle and we could defend masking an average strike force. under Roy we cant do anything - we seem slower, cant takles, cant take on a man, cant pass, cant defend, cant score, cant catch a runner, utterly useless in all aspects. Then he neglects to defend our players while Fergy talks bollox, he threatens top players, disrespects our youth and then tries to be clever with Rafa, who made him look like the donkey he is. Bottom line is Roy is an average manager mid table at very best - and look where we are, look where fulham always are - not liverpool Standards. New ownership, clearly a new youth policy / focus - decent attacking expansive competant proven manager please. Rykard - yes pls.
ReplyDeleteNice selective use of the stats there. You neglect to mention that Benitez lost to Middlesbrough, Birmingham and Bolton, yet you point out that Hodgson lost to some low-level teams. That's fairness for you!
ReplyDeleteand why don't you try and understand this once and for all: I give my opinions on this site - I have never argued that I am 'always right and everyone else is wrong'. That is just lies. You disagree with me, so you perceive it that way. Should I just accede to others who hold a different view to me just so that - yo you - I can appear to be in agreement with everyone else?!
You rarely if ever agree with me - does that mean it's fair for me to say that You are acting like you're always right and everyone else is wrong?! No.
Critical realism does not preclude the possibility of non-critical support when it is warranted.
You can't even see the irony, can you? I am being attacked by many for supporting the manager! This must be the twilight zone or something; I could understand it if we were two years into Hodgson's reign, but it's only 4 months.
Rafa gave us hope, Roy gives us nightmares - FACT.
ReplyDeleteRH has a small club mentality and this inevitabley filters through to the players. All those who got excited at the Chelsea victory should recall fulham beating united last season,but still finished mid table.we beat chelski inspite of RH. Torres said after the game that this result would mean nothing unless we got results at Wigan and Stoke& how right he was.
ReplyDeleteThe reason many fans are not willing to give RH time is a fear that he will take us backwards to a point where it will take a long time to recover from.if RH had a proven track record of winning titles in the biggest leagues in the world we might be more willing to give it time as we would have some hope that the team is moving in the right direction.nothing about RH's past or his present suggests any reason for hope.his methods and footballing philosophy may be great for fulham but NOT for lfc. You can get all the stats you want but 2 la liga titles at Valencia inspires much greater hope than Europa league final with fulham
You own a Liverpool fan website , yet you have NEVER been to Anfield, have you jamie. Please explain yout MO. Some "supporter" you. How is Bristol these days.
ReplyDeletebenitez lost more because the squad he in herited was realy bad compared to the players we have now...hodgson is treating us lfc as a mid tabled team...we are forced to play defensive n counter which doesnt suit us at all....by the way under rafa we didnt get out played by some clubs constantly like roy...promote hodgson to take charge of academy n bring a proper manager tht would attract world class players!!
ReplyDeleteInteresting article. The problem is that nobody wanted Hodgson and people know who he is so there is no leeway for him to put things right. His track record at this level is not good and again the fans know this. Rafa had just won the Spanish league with Valencia so had the track recoed to give him time.
ReplyDeleteFinally, Kenny wanted the job and didn't get it over Hodgson; that was never a winner from the start. I wish that he succeeds, but deep doen I know he won't so how long do we wait as this is terrible?
Statistics never tell the full story they just point you in the way you want the argument to go. When Liverpool lose it's hard to take regardless of who is in charge, but even you Jaimie Statistic Kanwar must agree that Liverpool are playing very poor pathetic hard to watch football. Also the idea that comparing Rafa's first games to Hodgson's is in anyway fair is laughable, Rafa was new to the Premiership and had a massive rebuilding job to do, all Hodgson had to do was make a few quality additions to a strong spine and experienced squad. But he has come in, added poor to average players and got rid of better ones and changed the whole philosophy of play to a boring rigid negative style with a touch of let's just hope for a bit of luck. At least with Rafa we could see what he was trying to do and where encouraged with the early displays if not the early results, with Hodgson we have no hope to cling onto because we can all clearly see he is hopelessly out of his depth. How else can you spend 35 years in football management and have very little success to show for it?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry Jaimie but your support for a mediocre manager is honourable but woefully misplaced, we will only go backwards if Hodgson remains as manager because it is obvious his style of play is alienating our top players who will want to leave then it's back to square one and a complete rebuild yet again.
Two points:
ReplyDelete1) rafa was a foreign coach who's English wasn't the easiest to comprehend. He was in a new league and was still a relatively young manager. Hodgson does not have that issue, and is vastly experienced.
2) We have played only 90 minutes of decent football (45 imnutes when Gerrard scored his hatrick and the first half against Chelsea). apart from that we have been dire. I mean so dreadful that I think I would rather have spent my afternoon shopping with my other half.
I too do not like to get rid of managers, and prefer to stick with them..... but sometimes in football you have to go with your gut feeling. Sometimes you cannot always justify such notions with scientific fact and research of old statistics.
I don't recall such despair and anger amongst fans when Benitez took charge of the first dozen or so games - and there's NO WAY you can compare Europa League matches to the Champions League.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, the results have been pretty poor but they are eclipsed by incredibly lacklustre and weak performances on the pitch. The players need to step up to the plate however the buck stops with Hodgson.
He contiues to talk to the media as though he is managing Fulham and his lack of ambition is translating itself perfectly on to the pitch.
You were anti Rafa and now you are backing Hodgson. Sums you up to a tee.
This guy will be gone by Christmas....he's out of his depth and overrated (by the media). The pressure was showing on him last night playing Stoke....he knows his days are numbered.
Well lets just wait until the end of the season eh and then we can compare......Hodgson will win nothing despite playing his best side in the league all season and having 4 meaningless qualification games in the Europa League. Whilst Rafa prioritised the champions leage and won it!
ReplyDeleteI mean Rafa was only wanted by Inter, Real and Munich whilst Roy was wanted by....yep, no-one.
Jamie hasn't realised that he's arguing for someone who's already lost the plot and is already on his way out. And martin o'neil wont replace him.
ReplyDeleteYes, and Benitez is doing so well at Inter. In 5th place in the league, and just hammered by Spurs in the CL. Great!
ReplyDeletewhen a liverpool manager comes out and slags off one of his own players in public then decides to say sorry, you begin to question what is going on in the managers head. The manager has had a go at johnson and agger basicly because they play the ball out from the back rather than hoof it up the pitch.
ReplyDeletethen you think what is the point in hoofing the ball up front when you are playing one man up front. its that kind of logic that makes me, as a fan, think does he know what he is doing. Torres is not a target man like davies is for bolton or jones is for stoke. the latter 2 also have strike partners who feed of the balls they win. thats not the type of play i expect liverpool to play the liverpool way is pass and move which where not getting a lot of. Benitez set his team up to control the game with possesion and pass and move again not to good to watch but effective. As a fan I would rather see us play attacking football and lose than play containing football and may be draw or still lose
You're very quick to tell people basically that if you don't like it here, don't visit the site. Truth is although sometimes u do come out with some insightful stuff alot of the times most people just want to smash ur face in.
ReplyDeleteYou sound like a baby who's lost his bottle or favourite toy!!!
Mate how's about this - If u can't take critiscism don't create a website with a forum attached - Don't allow people to comment if you can't take the comments taht are coming your way.
Now That's Truth!!!
*that
ReplyDeleteWhy is Hodgson abandoned and allowed to 'Walk Alone'?
ReplyDeleteTake the walk with him Jamie you seem the only one defending him tooth and nail and sadly most of the time without good reason except this pointless stats you keep bringing out. Maybe it's time you start anylising Roy Megson on his teams performances (tactics ect.) alone and stop comparing him to Benitez or any other manager.
Benitez Hater !!!!
ReplyDeleteJamie,
Why don't you stop having ago at Rafa and write about something else, god you need to move on.
Get a life son
Jamie- I entirely see your point regarding Hodgson and Benitez. I think the difference is, everybody knew Benitez had won La Liga with Valencia the previous year, (was it Uefa Cup aswell?). However Hodgson has come in from taking Fulham to 12th. You said the Europa League doesn't matter, so we have placed a manager in charge who's achievement was 12th place in the league? I have respect for Hodgson, but his career is respectable, not neccessarily successful, and I think that has shown on the pitch. He has been working in difficult circumstances, but I think we have the wrong man in charge if he's criticizing places to the press, e.g. Glen johnson. Roy was the easy option in the summer to sign, not too much hassle for the board. However I believe Dalglish would be a mistake and Rijkaard wouldn't neccessarily improve us. No, I think rather than dive bomb into a decision, we would be better served sounding out who's available. A debate like this with fans arguing is the ultimate tell-tale sign that something is seriously wrong at the club with the current management in charge. We Liverpool fans aren't fickle. For the time being we can only give our full support to the manager, regardless of whether we want him there or not. Lets make Anfield a fortress again and with abit of luck we'll start winning away from home. (Interesting looking at Hodgson's away form for Fulham...)
ReplyDelete5th - but 3 points off the top - not bad is it really - selective again JK - given you dont go to many games and sat in your plastic armchair - i assume thats why you understand 3-1 away from home a "battering".
ReplyDeleteDid Rafa turn you down or something lad, whats the beef?
Playing against Bolton when Sam Alardyce was in charge was difficult, especially for a first time foreign manager in charge.
ReplyDeleteI actually agree with you the majority of time, I just disagree with the way you word your articles "I'm right again!" "You read it here! Everyone else was wrong!" Exaggeration aside, that's what you sound like.
And you're being attacked because you choose not to criticize Hodgson, even if its 4 months in, he deserves a little criticisim, don't you think? Do you agree with his tactics against Wigan or Stoke? I think we can play great football under Hodgson, it was proven against Chelsea and the first 10 minutes against Wigan. Then we sat back... deep.
We can play ugly and win, like we did when Benitez was around, with Hodgson, we're playing horribly and getting beat. You can't give Hodgson 2 years if this is how we're going to play, unless theres a change.
Are you having a laugh???
ReplyDeleteIn his first few months, although results were similar, our style of football was raesonably attractive and improved, in the main, game by game.
This two banks of four Woy is accustomed to, a style that he is trying to instil into our institution, is appauling.
His influence is having the opposite effect to that desired by the muppets that chose to appoint him over Dalglish, who would have at least gone back to the bootroom days, instilling passion into a group of players who, right now, look as inspiring as a Wednseday evevning at the DW.
After a month of saying the right things, and during that period I had high hopes even though he was far from my first choice. Since then however, we have gone from bad to worse and the Chelsea victory serves only to paper over the cracks.
I agree that we need to stay behind the team and the manager, however, as numerous visitors to this site have stated, it gets harder and harder by the day....should we mute ourselves, our feelings and our beliefs until the damage is irrepairable, or should we speak up and hopefully trigger the action that a large proportion of fans will undoubtedly welcome.
Jamie, I admire your passion but the game has changed, fans beliefs have changed and LFC has changed.....and yes, mostly for the worse....it's time for another change, starting with the manager.
Criticism is fine if it's done in the right way. People can tear what I write to shreds - I encourage that, but if they hurl insults and derogatory comments at the same time then their posts will be deleted.
ReplyDeleteIf people have to be forced to debate like adults then so be it. if I was in a pub talking to someone about football and they started slagging me off I wouldn't just sit there and take it because of 'freedom of speech'. Same goes online. I will not have people soiling this site with their playground approach. I am only interested in having people comment who can do so like adults.
If people can't do that then their comments will be deleted. End of story.
"Hodgson has a similar record, in harder circumstances, with an arguably worse squad".... What?Hodgson isn't playing Champions League, Hodgson knows the Premiership inside out, Hodgson has 35 years experience in management, Hodgson has Europes best goalkeeper, best midfielder and best striker and he inherited a vastly experienced squad.We want Hodgson sacked because unlike Rafa we are not filled with confidence when we see his team tactics and selection, when we hear his press conferences or we see the quality of his signings etc. It's not just about results it's about style of play and perception, if we as fans do not feel confident in the manager then surely the players must be feeling the same.Liverpool require a few decent signings and a manger that believes in fluent attacking football, Hodgson only knows how to play defensive, rigid, negative football that is good enough for mediocre success (his CV proves that) but not to fulfill the aspirations of LFC.
ReplyDeleteHi Jamie, Ive been coming to this site for a while now because i like to have an overview of different opinions. I dont always agree with you but its good to have a balance, however with regards to Roy i think that his time is running out. The football we're playing at the moment is shocking and more alarming is the comments he makes in public. Yes a new manager needs time to get his ideas across but there doesnt seem to be any specific direction, and in the premier league Roy's history isnt great with regards to win rate, away wins etc. Anyway this is my first post so i hope we can have a constructive argument :)
ReplyDeleteFORGET RAFA UR STALKIN HIM FACT HE WAS SPANISH AND HAD WON 2 LA LIGAS 1 UEFA CUP NOW KANWAR COMPARE KENNY'S 1ST 20 GAMES TO HODGSONS AND AM SCOUSE LA FROM NORRIS GREEN WERE ARE YOU FROM YA DEAD RIGHT ANTI HODGSON ALL THE WAY BOY AND HE MADE SOUNESS LOOK GOOD AT BLACKBURN
ReplyDeleteBy that account that would mean that you would fully support me if I was appointed Liverpool manager. I could have been but unfortunately I wasn't flavour of the month at that time. One season of leading a Fulham team to unprecedented succes is all you need to manage Liverpool these days.
ReplyDeleteYou poor deluded fool. Is flogging a dead horse the new Liverpool way? He should never have been put in the position. Liverpool way, never walk alone is all nonsense. The man has no drive, ambition, pedigree or desire. Appointed by a none football person who read the back of the redtops and picked the name that was mentioned the most. Thank god Allardyce didn't have a good season.
This is Roy Hodgson. ROY HODGSON for gods sake. Why are you even writing articles about him. Does this not strike you as strange? How on earth did he get anywhere near the job in the first place. Were the board acting in the Liverpool way by appointing him? no so why should the fans.
Why the comparison with Benitez. Nobody cares. He is not good enough for Liverpool. I dont care how much better\worse his start is than Shankley\Paisley\Houllier etc. We are here and now. We don't even need to go into tactics, desire, long term goals, it is already evident from what you have seen and heard from the man already.
It took Souness 4 years to set us back 15 years. This man will do it in 2.
There are 2 outcomes to Hodgsons position at Liverpool. He finally realises he is not up to the job and resigns (unlikely given the nonsense he spouts in press conferences) or he is fired. I don't care which it just needs to happen soon. Hodgson is drowning and needs saving. Not with patience, understanding and apathy but with being removed from the position.
He either does not or is unable to realise the situation he is in. He is manager of Liverpool football club for crying out loud.
Manchester United coming in for your star player - cross that bridge when we come to it (dear god)
and please, for the love of god, can he hold a press conference without saying hope 85 times
Going off his latest press conference escapades, I see he has backed down and apologised again. Makes claim against Benitez, backs down apologises. Makes claim about Johnson, backs down and apologises.
THEN says "i<span>t amazes me that when you make a statement of such obvious voracity people want to make headlines out of it"</span>
Roy ffs, you are manager of Liverpool Football Club now. Everything you say will be scrutinised. You could have turned up for a Fulham game in green wellies and a pink tutu and only made 3 pages in from the back page. Your situation has changed. You are here now, not there. His inability to adapt or unwillingness to change is why the fans are on his back.
Why does he have your support? What exactly does he bring to the table? Where we are right now we can attract a certain level of manager. What exactly does Roy have (in YOUR OPINION) that none of them have. I'll tell you. the title of Liverpool manager, no more but a hell of a lot less.
He's like an old man wandering around the nursing home and still thinks the war is on. Someone needs to put an arm around his shoulder, tell him everythings going to be alright and put him to bed.
O'Neil's average players WERE expensive players! That man got an easy ride for his cheeky chappy, everyday man act, but he spent a lot of money on players that he refused to use at Villa, and his brand of football was not I want Liverpool to aspire to.
ReplyDeleteWe've done the British experiment on behalf of the Big 4 and the FA - now it's time to move on with a manager with a more modern approach (4231/433 attacking, possession based football), and unfortunately there's not many Brits that fit the bill.
It's Arsenal or Chelsea's turn to give O'Neil or another token Brit a try next
Jaimie just wanna say that true Liverpool fans should agree with what u say, at least give the man half a season before u start critising him....ur not helping at all...all of you critising hudgson are only helping making matters worse, not that he's gonna get sacked bcuz ur critising....
ReplyDeleteI mean, for god's sake, this man was the first candidate to suceed Capello in England management, won the Premier League Manager of the year 5,6 months ago...he can't have possibly lost it sooo fast...u say he's a mid-table manager....but guess what ? he used to manage inter and reasearch it u'll find that inter offered him a contract extension that he refused....and he's a winner in switzerland....
so for god's sake give the man respect, even if he's not proper for liverpool at least be respectfull people liverpool fans....
we're only 6 pts away from 4rth with 25 games to go....last year we were 7 pts away when we played sunderland with 6 games to go...Give the man the respect and the time his Career CV deserves....
I couldn't, in fact I didn't, put it better....judging by the season so far I'd have to argue that Allardyce would have done a better job as we wouldn't be rolling over and letting the lives of Stoke City (STOKE CITY FFS) tickle our bellies....
ReplyDeletehey jamie...first off, this is my first comment but i hav read most of ure work in the past year or so and i feel that a lot of your articles are really objective and reasonably fair. all but this...firstly, im on ure side when it comes to being critical on benitez...i mean, the guy had his moments but he just didnt have what it takes to bring liverpool to the next level (of consistently challenging for the title with an end result to show for)...on a more related note, despite my early optimism of hodgsons appointment, i have yet to rekindle any such feelings. i always wanted kenny in to give us a fairly tale ending but hey, hodgson had a decent record...but thn the signs came in when he signed players like poulsen and konchesky while letting insua go...and not to mention, some of the young and promising players (cant remember their names though but im sure ure aware)...he did great in keeping hold of our stars though...but there seems to be a lack of that positive aura...call me high but just think about it.... torres seems to be like a little girl lost in a shopping complex most of the time and sometimes u cant help but get the feeling that hes isnt trying hard enough...like he used to....and so many worries about players futures and all...and my worst fear is the departure of agger coz he didnt seem to be in hodgsons plans before the injury and is most likely to leave (out of the players worth keeping)...always thought that we should make a radical change in formation to 3 5 2....it would accomodate our 3 fantastic centre halves and go hand in hand with our hobby of shopping for central midfielders...but thats a debate for another day...
ReplyDeletebasicly, heres why i disagree that we should support hodgson till the end of the season...i was skeptical of houlier's and benitez's abilities in the first 20 games....and i still, in my opinion think im correct as i do not think they could match rudolph the red nose fergie in the long run...and guess what, in the past 10 years, the mancs have only caught up wit us...anyways, from where i stand, the future seems rather bleak with hodgson in charge...the same aweful early records of these 3 managers may offer some insight into why i feel this way...we need a born leader...a person who would kick a boot on torres if he forgets to run and inspires him when he does...hodgson seems a bit too timid...and by da way, i hope i eat my words and hodgson proves me wrong...i really do, for the sake of the team ive been supporting eversince i learnt how 2 clean myself up after taking a dump...but, it really does seem unlikely and we cant get any worse than this, so bring on dalglish as a temporary manager while assessing for possible replacements, IF NECCESSARY...btw, cheers for the interesting articles u post...great work, dude...
The reason everybody is disregarding results in the Europa League is because it is widely dismissed as a trophy barely worth competing for. The league is recognised as a prestige tournament. The Champions League is a prestige tournament. The Europa League probably bears less relevance than the FA Cup to fans & players (this is also clearly reflected by the selection policy of other English clubs in the competition, as well as that of Hodgson's Liverpool, where he regularly picks players that he obviously doesn't trust for meaningful competition)
ReplyDeletejaimie, are you judging inter milans new manager after just months in the job?!! =-O
ReplyDeleteI kid! It is premature to judge Hodgson, I pretty much concur with your view, If this remains till Christmas, then I think change is necessary, but lets get behind the team in the meantime, we don't have to be resigned to failure until then, as many seem content to be..success is not beyond this season yet..positivity can be an incredable tool..
Poor results under Benitez during his first season granted but never the DIRE performances we are getting at the moment. We were NEVER outplayed by the likes of Wigan, Stoke and Blackpool.
ReplyDeleteExcellent stats, but one problem, Benitez was a far better tactician and entertainer that this baffoon
ReplyDeleteThanks Jamie for the comparison.
ReplyDeleteIndependently of the squad depth, I think Rafa's record was better because he was competing for the Champions League rather than the weaker Europa League; achieved better EPL results; and was coming to Liverpool as a total stranger to the Premier League.
Although Houlier was by no means a bad manager, he had moreover made more bad than good buys (which in my view was not the case with Benitez), so that our first team squad in 2004 was significantly weaker than our first team squad today.
"Benitez has a slightly better record in the league, but why should that take precedence overall? What about Europe? Does that just not matter at all? Does overall performance not matter? Yes it does<span>"</span>
ReplyDeletebenitez = champions leaguehodgson = europa league
hodgsons record looks better than it should be because he's been able to play reserve teams in the europa league games and still escape defeat! Also, in doing this, surely theres less excuse for us then playing crap in the league!
also, has anyone else cottoned onto the fact that he has no rotation policy??? benitez got no end of stick for that, but you gotta admit we generally had a very strong second half of the season... under hodgson, i worry that we are playing this bad with a settled first team early season... whats it gonna be like when player fatigue kicks in???
we were much better under benetiz in my opinion, pressing higher up the pitch... sure it was all very methodical and we were a touch robotic, but it was generally pretty effective! at least in comparison to roys style.
thats to say, not much of a rotation policy in the league
ReplyDeletei really get the impression you wouldnt know if a ball was blew up or stuffed. you never write article on player performanceor tactics. after we beat teams you go awol.everything you write is anti lfc fans and really negative. do you watch games or just study league tables and stats?
ReplyDeletedont forget that team that finished 7th ALSO broke our points tally TWICE!
ReplyDeletedont forget that team that finished 7th ALSO broke our points tally TWICE!
ReplyDeleteSo you are saying Rafa is better then since obviously the team that Hodgson inherited is way better than Rafa. Rafa still managed to do okay despite having a shitty team.
ReplyDeleteHodgson on the other hand have lots more world class players like Torres, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Joe Cole, Gerard and yet managed to get worse result.
For someone who posted this for everyone to discuss you whinge alot when people do not agree with you. Every single posts you made seemed to very much show your hatred towards Rafa. Why is that? What have Hodgson did for Liverpool that is so great that you try to compare in a bias way that the result under Rafa is the same with Hodgson and yet you failed to be objective and look at what Rafa left to Hodgson compared to what Rafa inherited. I was there when Valencia twice under Rafa totally outclassed Liverpool. Liverpool team were made to chase shadow and not even able to touch the ball.
Rafa was then appointed as the coach and changed the team slowly to play passing game. Liverpool have always been successfull when they play passing games and what Hodgson is doing is very much hoof the ball forward . That is why so many got pissed with him.
No one here is deluded to think Rafa will ever be back. That is now the past, move on and look what is in front of you and see how badly the team is playing.. If you think Rafa is bad then why do you want to compare our current manager record with him? You should ask why must we settle for someone who cant even motivate a team full of internationals to beat the likes of wigan and stokes. Not compare him with manager who you think is crap.
I dont care about either era. I only want the team to be winning or at least enjoying themselves and Roy just like Rafa did is demoralizing the club on a whole
ReplyDeleteYou always dismiss the thoughts and feelings of us fellow liverpool supporters on this site like they are low lifes. That is not charismatic or high-value behavior, and you should learn to not take yourself so seriously. You're alienating yourself. I for one will not visit this site again, and I wanted you to know why.
ReplyDeleteselective stats, i'd have said
ReplyDeleteFair play for defending the manager. Pity you have such a negative view of Benitez. It certainly isn't shared by the majority on merseyside.
ReplyDeleteI would be interested in your thoughts on the following? What is the plan with Hodgson? I'm sure most fans want the next Wenger or Fergie. Perhaps a lot of fans thought that was Benitez. What we don't want as fans is swapping and changing the manager every few seasons. If Hodgson stops for the same length of time as Benitez he will be 69... what then? Is Hodgson the stop-gap 'till we find the right manager? From what NESV have said they are in this for the long haul... so how can Roy be the man for the job? How can he really build something? The guy is too old...
Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteWhy have you chosen to now exclude Houiller from this comparison? You were eager to include him in the 18 game comparison, but not now?
It makes this article more like an attack on Benitez' performance in his first 22 games than the previous article on all three managers.
I have to agree to an extent, fair minded fans (of which there are many) love a debate, I just feel that often it descends to bickering, or an arguement. I suppose the barrage of unwarranted abuse you receive would put anyone on the defence, but there are many who just want good natured debate and discussion.
ReplyDeletejust well intended criticism or advice.
As an aside I would be interested in seeing articles critiquing games etc, your approach would be sure to throw up interesting debate! obviously up to yourself, just my two cents!
I would like to say thank you for your support. This morning i asked the board to suck me. I realise I am only a mid table manager who can not cut the mustard in a big club.
ReplyDeleteI tried to blame everyone for the results. The players, the old manager.....but in the end, i looked at myself in the mirror and i realised that i was the weakest link!
Yours truly
Uncle Roy
Jamie, you are a fellow supporter and very loyal. We all have different opinions/ideas but want the best for our club.
Please look at the games this season. Look at the football we play. Read Roy's wise words after each game and you will find that most of us, are feeling offended and sick of him. From the Fergie criticism to our players/calling half of our lads B team/blaming things on the last manager etc.
Jamie, why give him a season? We need to see some positive things. No one in football today will give you time for the sake of it. You have to earn that!
So far, Roy has done nothing to merit that.
Stop comparing him to Rafa. its no use, our owners appointed Rafa and the supporters give their backing from the start.
The problem with Roy is this, No one wanted him in the first place. Most fans did not believe he had what it takes to make it at the top 4 club. He was appointed by some very unpopular owners and he is there as a reminder or a relic of the previous regime.
Jamie, Roy will be sacked but the timing is of essence. All else has to be put in place first. Board of directors/check/football director/check/ conduct the research and identify the man to take over first.....before Roy gets fired. We suck him tomorrow, what happens next? Does not change much on the PL table!
And leave King Kenny alone. He has been out of the game for too long.
Hi Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI have enjoyed reading your articles. This time I do feel you may have missed some important points in your comparison.
First and foremost, under Rafa or Houllier's first season, we never dropped into the relegation zone and worried that we might be relegated. Under Hodgson we did. Are you saying that the Liverpool first team is so poor that it is relegation material?
From your stats, Rafa got 20 league points at this stage. Hodgson has 16. At 20 points that would put us at 5th place on the table, 2 points behind Man City and just 8 points behind the leaders Chelsea.
Now to answer your analysis
* Hodgson has lost FEWER games than Benitez in his first 22 games (Benitez 7; Hodgson 5)
Losing fewer games doesn't matter to me. I want the points. And the points tally is what determines your place on the table. The table doesn't lie. 16 points versus 20 points. Hodgson is underperforming compared to Benitez. Comparing the squads, Benitez had a problem of not having a world class striker and goalkeeper. We have the spine of a solid team. Reina, Carragher, Gerrard, Torres.
* Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 11; Hodgson 10)
Yes both managers have similar TOTAL number of wins overall. But Benitez won 6 League games and 5 (FIVE) in the CL. Hodgson is somewhat the opposite. 6 wins in the Europa League and 4 League wins. By the way there is something wrong with your overall tabulation for Rafa Benitez. If you correct it, perhaps you will see the folly in your argument.
Who do you want?
ReplyDeleteKanwar, why are you going on with this shit?
ReplyDeleteI have two questions for you.
1. Do you thinkRoy is the right man for Liverpool Football Club?
2. Do you think Rafa did anything good for LFC?
We won Champions League with Rafa the first season. Now we have absolutely now gameplan.
Go fvck yourself, why don't you pick another team and you can take HodgePodge with you? It's the first time since I've started supporting Liverpool that I don't want to watch games no more. This should say enough.
ReplyDeletei think one of the things that endeared Benitez to us straight away was who he brought in with him... Xabi & Luis, massive players for us partiularly in the champs league.... cant see Poulsen & Konchesky doing much at all really!
ReplyDeleteP.S i appreciate that nunez, josemi and morientes were kack that year... but at least we had an instant boost in quality with xabi an luis! Roy, well... lets be honest, we got weaker not stronger this summer
Who did we have playing upfront Jamie in Rafa's first year??Didn't we just sell Owen to Madrid and the great hope Cisse had broken his leg ....Can we compare that to this year. We have the Torres, Gerrard ..do we not???
ReplyDeleteUnder Rafa we at least had a go at teams, the goals for and against in both managers 22 games speak for themselves. Under Roy we don't look like scoring, Torres is played on his own up front and is starved of chances. Yesterday we had at least 4 players out of position. Roys two signings Poulsen & Konchesky have been poor to say the least. He looks puzzled on the bench and is unable to change a game. The board need to act quickly and sack Roy and put Kenny in charge until we can get Hiddink in.
ReplyDelete* Benitez has a slightly better record in the league, but why should that take precedence overall? What about Europe? Does that just not matter at all? Does overall performance not matter? Yes it does.
ReplyDeleteYes but Rafa did much much better in Europe. Your tabulations are wrong. Go check on it again. Perhaps your subconcious is so willing to defend Hodgson that you inadvertently made the mistakes in the tabulations.
* Benitez has only 4 more points than Hodgson in the league after 13 games. Big deal! Why is that such a significant difference?
Those 4 points will jump us up 6 positions on the league table into 5th place just 2 points from a CL qualification place. Big deal? Sure.
* In his first 13 games, Benitez played many of the 9 of poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace and Middlesbrough. Despite a comparatively easy start, Benitez's team could only manager 20 points after 13 games.
League table positions matter more to me than points. Despite your criticism of Rafa having only 20 points after 13 games, we never ever dropped into the relegation zone.
I am sure you don't understand football. You surely haven't been watching Liverpool for long. We had Milan Baros in front in Rafa'f first year. Owen had just pissed on us and left for Real Madrid. Cisse had broken his leg in the end run.....Begs the question. Were you even watching Liverpool in 2005.
ReplyDelete<p><span><span>* Spurs and Man City were also poor teams back then (In the preceding season, Spurs finished 14th and Man City finished 16th). The only real tests Benitez's team faced in the first 13 league games were against Man United and Chelsea, and both games were lost.</span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>Real tests? Playing against "weaker" teams is not easy as Rafa found out himself. Same with Hodgson, he used to manage such "weaker" teams. So what are you suggesting? That these "weaker" teams are cannon fodder? Then what about us having a manager who used to manage such "weaker" clubs day in day out? Where's the logic?</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>
* In his first 13 league games, Hodgson's team has faced Arsenal, Chelsea and Man United and Man City. However, unlike 2004-5, City is now a quality team with limitless transfer spending ability and squad full of expensive players.</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>You keep harping on this, and I will harp my point on us dropping into the relegation zone. As a proud Liverpool fan I am extremely saddened that happened to the team.</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>
* Hodgson's team has also played Everton, which is always a tough game no matter what season. The game was lost, but Liverpool has lost to Everton many times in the past; losing against them is no disgrace given the passion involved in the game. Benitez also lost at Goodison in his first season.</span></span>
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Yes losing against Everton is no disgrace, but losing at Anfield to Blackpool is.</span></span>
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</p>
<p><span><span>* Hodgson's team has played the likes of Wigan, Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton, Birmingham and West Brom, but these teams are arguably superior in quality than the dross Benitez's side played in 2004. The basic point here is that Hodgson has had a much harder start to contend with than Benitez did.</span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>I would agree with you on this point. However, bear in mind that Fullham are just 2 points behind Liverpool at this stage. Are you saying that between Hodgson and Hughes, the only difference is 2 points? What about our squads? Fullhams vs Liverpool? 2 points difference? Does that please you?</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>
* It is widely accepted that the quality of the Premier League has improved in quality since 2004; it is also clear that the gap between the so-called smaller teams and the top 4 is closing. This was especially evident last season, with the top teams losing more games than normal on the way to the title.</span></span>
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</p><p><span><span>This is true. Having said that the top teams are still the same 3. Liverpool dropped off.</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>* Fans go on about the performances under Hodgson being poor; the same was true under Benitez, but fans do not have the fairness to admit this. I remember (amongst others) poor performances against Bolton, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Chelsea and Man United.</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>Frankly I don't care so much about performances. Results matter more. It is no point saying your performances are too good to be relegated and then get relegated.</span></span>
</p>
<p><span><span>* Hodgson's European record is admirable: 6 victories out of 8, and no defeats. Why should this be disregarded?! Is it Hodgson's fault Liverpool is in the Europa League?! NO. The typical excuse used by fans is that Benitez was in the Champions League, so the games were harder. What does that prove? If we're talking about comparative quality of opposition, Benitez's team lost AT HOME to the mighty Sturm Graz in the CL qualifying phase.</span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>You are stretching it too far now. Look back at your stats again. 11 wins for Rafa but only 6 in League and 3 in CL? Where are the remaining 2? CL? That's 5 wins in the CL??? And oh yeah, Rafa won the CL! If Hodgson wins the Europa League he will still not be as revered. Not his fault that's true. But at least Rafa somehow managed to get the team qualify for the CL the following season by winning the CL. Hodgson can't do that with the Europa. He better realize that and work harder on the EPL games. I'd rather qualify for the CL next season than not qualify but win the Europa League. I am sure almost all the fans feel the same way. Just look at the Anfield attendances at Europa League games.</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>
* No matter how fans try and twist it, Trabzonspor, Steaua Bucharest and Napoli are NOT poor teams. Trabzonspor finished 5th in the Turkish league in 2009-10; Steaua Bucharest is the most successful team in Romanian history, and Napoli are currently 3rd in Serie A, just two points off the top (ahead of Benitez's Inter Milan).</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>Well it's the competition they play in. Europa League? Sorry it doesn't matter to me if we were playing Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan in the Europa League. I'd much rather be in the CL and playing against Bursaspor. There's a reason why it is called the Champions League.</span></span>
</p><p>
</p>
<p><span><span>All in all, Hodgson is having stick because of the following :</span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>1) Poor results in the EPL to the point we fell into the relegation zone</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>2) Unimpressive resume. His record of away wins in the EPL is dismal. There is a reason why people study history.</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>3) Poor signings. Konchesky and Poulsen notable poor signings. Meireles yet to be proven. Joe Cole while it looked good has been the worst signing of all. Reminds me of Harry Kewell's signing that Houllier made.</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>4) Poor management of the press. Criticizing Benitez and then apologizing. Criticizing Glen Johnson and then apologizing. Comments made to press typical of a manager of a smaller club</span></span>
</p><p><span><span>5)Roy Hodgson was never a manager we would have wished for to manage Liverpool Football Club. He doesn't fall into anyone's wish list. (except Christian Purslow perhaps) And he represents the last unhappy link to the Hicks and Gillet era.</span></span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span><span>Enough apologies Roy Hodgson! Either the results improve and we move up the table, or we bring in a new manager. The question is always how much more time do we give the current manager?</span></span>
</p>
I agree on all the points you made about Roy joining the club at the worst possible moment. I'm not so sure about comparing the manager's starts to seasons though. Circumstances are very different now. So much has happened over the last 5 years to the world of football. Fans attitudes have changed considerably and that to me is one of the major problems now. It's not Roy or Benitez. Although Benitez was clever enough to know how to enchant the fans. He's a lot more charismatic than Roy so that to me explains a lot. Roy was always going to fail and the signings he's made (apart from Cole cos he for some reason is untouchable) are doomed too simply because, well they just aren't "appealing" enough. It's ridiculous. Another explanation is the influence fans had in the sale of the club. Now they seem to think they can have a say and an influence in anything that goes on at the club.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's the point - by using stats you have completely missed the point. Although Ged and Rafa had mediocre starts you could see gradual improvement. At the moment it's like watching the same team from last year - where is the improvement? Where are the signs?
ReplyDeleteoh and some nice covering of your tracks in the main piece - essentially your position is "I support him but I don't think he's the right man for the job". You can't lose from a position like that can you?
<span>I agree on all the points you made about Roy joining the club at the worst possible moment. I'm not so sure about comparing the manager's starts to seasons though. Circumstances are very different now. So much has happened over the last 5 years to the world of football. Fans attitudes have changed considerably and that to me is one of the major problems now. It's not Roy or Benitez. Although Benitez was clever enough to know how to enchant the fans. He's a lot more charismatic than Roy so that to me explains a lot. Roy was always going to fail and the signings he's made (apart from Cole cos he for some reason is untouchable) are doomed too, simply because, well they just aren't "appealing" enough. It's ridiculous. Another explanation is the influence fans had in the sale of the club. Now they seem to think they can have a say and an influence in anything that goes on at the club.<span>
ReplyDelete</span></span>
The fact that you don't seem to see how poorly we have performed under Hodgson vs. BenÃtez, in their first games at the club, is just plain scary, if you're a Liverpool-supporter, and NOT a Rafa-hater..
ReplyDeleteWith BenÃtez there was always a hope that we could win every game, right from the start, with Hodgson, it's a totally different story.. Every away game, most of us struggles to see that we can get a decent result (which is a win), with Hodgson on board, and as you maybe know, we only have ONE away victory (in the league, which was Bolton) under Hodgson, and we shouldn't even have had that as we were totally dominated 99% of the game..
It doesn't help that he (Hodgson) hasn't won ONE major trophy, in almost 40 years in management, which makes people more inpatient (although I am still willing to give Hodgson a little more time, more specifically,until the end of february 2011, before I'm jumping on the train of "hypocritical" supporters, as you put it), while BenÃtez has won several major trophies in a little more than 15 years in management. So you should understand the supporters frustration with that fact alone, and not call them hypocrites, which you canstantly do.
And just a tip, if I may; Stop acting arrogant in front of so many. It's both frustrating, annoying and disrespectul for the few poeple that bother to write their opinions here (as you constantly use selective stats, which ironically, you blame someone else for doing in the comments section on this piece). It just makes people angry, and you always stand by the things you say, which can be a good thing, but you probably should concede one or two times that you were the one that was wrong (when you are, of course), as there are people I've seen commenting on some recent articles that seems more informed and more updated than you (no offense, of course), but you just keep waving them off, with ,for instance, selective stats that shows that you are right.
Jamie.
ReplyDeleteThe reason the majority of Liverpool fans want Hodgson out is:
1. No one rated him in the first place and at 63, he is hardly a long term appointment.
2. Liverpool under Hodgson are totally disorganised.
3. He doesn't seem to know where players are best utilised.
4. He makes stupid remarks in the press and blames everyone but himself.
5. At times he looks like he hasn't a clue. We got dumped out of the league cup not because he picked a young side, but because he gave himself no plan B. To have no experienced players on the bench was bonkers.
I don't see the point in backing someone who isn't going to be good enough. Journeyman managers don't suddenly become world class overnight. It's probably a little late for Roy to make the transition unless he plans to work into his eighties.
I feel let down that he was apointed in the first place.
He hasn't obtained the minimum acceptable standard yet, how much longer? I don't expect him to be brilliant straight away, but this is unacceptable.
Manual Pellegrini or the lunatic leprechaun for me.
I couldn't care less whether you visit the site or not. I do not dismiss the feelings of all fans (as you suggest), just those who get personal with me. That is a miniscule minority of people, and I make no apolgy for treating them with the disdain they deserve. if you don't like that, don't come back.
ReplyDeletespat the dummy and toys out of pram, get a grip lad
ReplyDeleteCompletely untrue. You just don't have the fairness to look at Benitez's results in his first season accurately. We were diabolical against Bolton, Middlesbrough et al. I remember the games; in fact, I have several of the full games still recorded, as well as the season review video, and my personal memories of being at some of the games that season.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteA perfect example of the kind of brainless, ignorant Superfan I regularly attack with my articles. As long as idiots like you are out there, I will have plenty to write about.
People who have the ability to debate properly; construct coherent arguments; argue against me with intelligence and reason. If that means I have to ban 80% of the current commentors to achieve that then so be it.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't possibly agree more than I do!
ReplyDeleteit is not just down to the numbers of games won or lost here
ReplyDeleteit is the tactics and the style of play adopted by hodgson to the squad,having watch liverpool under benitez,i can honestly say although benitez not statistically better his football was not as bad as now
hodgson style of play or lack of it saw us countless time sit back ,absorb the pressure rather than having a go at the opponent.i really ashamed of saying this but there is no more fun or pleasure watching liverpool play nowadays
if hodgson want to be defensive ,thats okay but 90 minutes sitting inside your own half...really.....just waiting for miracles of torres and gerrard ,they could only do so much
until some changes is made ...be prepared for more of the same
for our sake....lets just us all hope for miracles
YNWA
not being funny jamie, but when were you last at a match?
ReplyDeleteI for one never wanted Hodgson the get the job, i know it is easy to say now. I never beleived that he was a great manager and still can't understand how a person can win the manager of the year with just one away win in the league in the season. He had a very bad record in away games with his previous clubs in the english league and as we all know a team needs a decent away record to get into the top 4. Saying his the right man to steady the ship is rubbish, it smacks of defeatism and lack of ambition.The british media wanted a British manager in charge of Liverpool and this was the main thing Hogson had going for him.Would Chelsea, united,city,arsenal or any other top team in europe hire him NO and the reason for that is because he is not good enough. I beleive the reason liverpool fans still talk about Rafa is because he has done it at the highest level and sacking (call it what you like) him for not getting into the champions league was a knee jerk reaction and then replacing him with a man who with hogsons league record no chance of getting into the top 4 was insulting to the club and fans.
ReplyDeleteRafa was new to English football and introduced zonal marking which very few if any were use to and if you look at the figures this tatic proved to be very effective.Comparing CL and Europa cup does not stand up as you are not comparing like with like. Hogson is an english manager who has enough experience in the league to hit the groung running.The fans were not happy with the results in the first year under Rafa or GH but beleived they had some promise, unlike hogson. Shanks would have loved to start his time at LFC with 14 players who had just been in the squads for the world cup. hogson is not and will never be good enough.
Not the first time to see some pretty misleading statistics....
ReplyDeleteHodgson's record is unacceptable and comparing it them to Benitez is providing a false sense of security.
If we look at the league. That is 20 points in 13 games, which averages to 1.54 points/game, which comes to 58.5 points over the season (1.54 x 38). Guess what? Liverpool got 58 points that season, which was fifth. But the redeeming feature was winning the champion's league.
Now, lets look at Hodgson. 16 points in 13 games. "<span>Big deal! Why is that such a significant difference?" you ask. Well, applying the same logic as above, that is 1.23 points per game, equivalent to 46.7 points in the season. Well... if we got 47 points last season, we would have been 11th, equalling Stoke.</span>
Interestingly.... Fulham won 46 points under Hodgson.
Quite frankly, I am not content with this performance at all. Given the quality of the squad, it is an unacceptable record and not good enough for Liverpool. End of story.
Great read and soooo true. Hypocrites the lot of them (with huge chips on their shoulders)!!!!
ReplyDeletei dont think the problem lies with Roy and it didnt with Benitez. the problem is Gerbil faced Sammy Lee. have we one anything since his appointment? he was terrible at Bolton and the way we are plating at the moment is just like how Bolton used to play. Jaime you like your stats hpw about some stats relating to Sammy Lee..
ReplyDeleteIt's not "Anti-LFC" to want Hodgson out at all. Instead of looking at statistics look at what is happening in front of your eyes. All of the problems that were apparant last season such as negative tactics, players being played out of position, alienation of players, players not looking motivated, lack of 'plan B' etc etc are still there. Surely the point of a new manager is to bring fresh ideas and optimism- neither of which we have seen so far. How bad do things have to be before it's "allowed" to want him gone? What "significant measurable" impact is this manager having on the team? None. I've seen nothing to make me think this man can turn it around- and it's got absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about Rafael Benitez or any other former manager.
ReplyDeleteA hypocrite is someone who's pretending to be something they are not. I don't know how that can be accused of anyone saying they want Roy out; unless you can prove that those same people supported Benitez, which self-evidently cannot be proved. Added to that, these people would only be hypocrites if Hodgson was not getting their support in exactly the same circumstances; which, even more self-evidently, is absolutely not the case.
ReplyDeleteThese tenures, which you presume to compare, are incomparable!
A hypocrite is someone who's pretending to be something they are not. I don't know how that can be accused of anyone saying they want Roy out; unless you can prove that those same people supported Benitez, which self-evidently cannot be proved. Added to that, these people would only be hypocrites if Hodgson was not getting their support in exactly the same circumstances; which, even more self-evidently, is absolutely not the case.
ReplyDeleteThese tenures, which you presume to compare, are incomparable!
You pride yourself in detail and stats but when i try to defferentiate the Europa and Champions league you say it's not about the league. It's like saying The primier league and carling cup is the same thing. So Hodgeson inherited a worse team ok... here is the team RF had for 2005 and won the Champions league with them. Hand to heart that they are better than what Hodgeson inherited? Not sure if they are better than Reina (regarded as one of the best keeper) & Dudek?, Carragher, Johnson (England International), Agger (Talent of the year 2005, 2007 Danish Footballer of the year & solid under RB), Skrtel (Slovak footballer of the year 07 & 08), Gerrard, Aquiliani swap for poulsen (he chose not to give a chance to AA), Torres, Babel, Insua swap for konchesky?, etc. I think only Hyypia and Hamann is better than what we have now for the same position. He messed up the team. I am not a RB fan but you are just not objective in your blind hatred and agenda. RB has left...why don't you talk about GH as well or Souness?
ReplyDeleteRF inheritence: Dudek, Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Traore, Gerrard, Riise, Kewell, Baros, Biscan, Cisse, Hamann
people who agree with him; wrong or right
ReplyDeletePutting stats aside for one minute, I may be able to stomach our current league position if I enjoyed the football I was watching. Unfortunatly even the games we have won have been poor in terms of quality football.
ReplyDeleteMy issue with Mr Hodgson is not stats, points or substitutions, it is because in my opinion he play very unattractive underdog football i.e. defend for all you are worth and try and score on the break.
This might not be so bad if we had a target man but we don't so we just pump the ball long, lose the ball and invite pressure. Against Chelsea this does not look to bad as acting like the underdog is understandable but againt Wigan and Stoke who probably see playing Liverpool as a Pinical of the season, it is suicide.
I cannot remember a game this season that I would consider comfortable. We have struggled to every win, lose or draw.
My greivance is that Mr Hodgson is trying to pass this game play off as something other than pitiful.
Jamie, I would start laying that bet of yours because there is not a chance we are finishing in the top four. The worst thing about writing these comments is i'm an optimist.
you are such a dope woy is playing in the europa league and the teams are mince chalk off all 5 they are no where near champions league standard.
ReplyDeleteoh come on Jaimie
ReplyDeleteyou won't critcise a new manager in his first season, but continue to criticise the old manager in the months following his classless dismissal.
Why Jaimie?
It seems strange given surely the man in the dug out is responsible for tactics?
maybe you will criticise yesterdays game in 12 months time?
doesn't really make sense, does it?
A perfect example of the kind of brainless, ignorant Superfan I regularly attack with my articles. As long as idiots like you are out there, I will have plenty to write about.<span>
ReplyDelete</span>
Those are your own words Jaimie. You insult your fellow fans who love Liverpool. We are all passionate about our club, but you too must learn to take as you give. Please stop this character assasination. We want Hodgeson to go as much as I am proud of the fact that we are not a sacking club. But don,t turn every opinion, issue we have with the situation into Rafa or Fan bashing. I do wish you would calm down and move on regards RB. Move on, we all have. I wish you well.
I notice that you haven't answered the question that has been repeatedly asked of you. WHEN WERE YOU LAST AT A GAME?
ReplyDeleteJamie, don't bother arguing. Liverpool once hired a relatively inexperienced manager from an unsuccessful Huddersfield team, who then took FIVE years to win the League title. Heaven knows what this lot would have made of him.
ReplyDeleteHis name was Bill Shankly by the way, and he'd find probably find these 'fans' laughable.
And by the way, evry single living person his a hypocrite - that is the nature of humans. We all succumb to bias, preferences and discrimination of one form or other. The simple fact is that your statistics only show one side of the story. Most fans would also take issue with:
ReplyDelete1. Roy's tactics
2. Roy's failure to 'protect' Torres from Ferguson's gibes.
3. Roy's seeming acceptance that Man Utd could bid for Torres.
4. Roy's weak performance in press conferences.
5. Roy's petty treatment of journalists who dare to question him.
6. Roy's lack of empathy with the fans.
Shall I go on.
The simple fact is that when Rafa arrived most fans liked him. Most fans simply do not like Roy - the statistics are interesting, but even if his record was better than Rafa's over 22 games it wouldn't be important because the fans haven't warmed to him.
If you didn't think football fans were hypocrite's from the get go, then your are more naive than I thought.
Kanwar Judging by the utter deluded crap that you normally post to undermine the fans and club , I'm convinced that you're a Manc in disguise
ReplyDeletei agree with excalibur, the bad results are one thing but the football is terrible, and the players know it, we play with no conviction, no fluidity and NO FLAIR. Hodgson is not a bad manager he just isn't what we need right now and if we keep him all he will do is cement us in mid table for seasons to come and its beginning to seem like people are coming to terms with it. right now we need a forward thinking positive manager, somebody who won't just stand in front of the microphones saying we can achieve top four but also believe it and i know hodgson dosen't hes busy underating players we have (that most managers in the league would gladly have in thier starting 11) because he dosent know how to use them, we dont control games because when we gain posession we make torres play fetch and gift the ball to the opposition, he is still palying strikers as wingers and then complaining about a lack of firepower and width why not give players like pacheco amoo and co a chance our youth can shine if we let them, Hodgson isnt a bad manager as i said but as liverpool manager he can be summed up in one word....Clueless
ReplyDeleteI will readily insult people who insult me. For that, I make no apology. I don't give a damn if they 'love Liverpool' - If they come on this site and slag me off, or suggest I am not a fan they I will reply in the same manner.
ReplyDeleteIf people don't attack me, I don't attack them.
Everyone is sick of your useless articles which are only used to play fans off each other.
ReplyDeleteSuperfans, this coming from a supposed Liverpool supporter who cosy's up to a web site that profits off the dead of the Heysel Disaster.
Great point, Spencey. Shankly would've been ridiculed and character assassinated out of existence by the current set of 'fans'.
ReplyDeleteIve said it before and Ill say it again. Jamie is a very intelligent guy but he is absolutely clueless about football and more specifically, about Liverpool FC.
ReplyDeleteTo begin with I'm not even going to try and compare RH with any other manager because in my opinion you cant.. different players/coaches/Management/Competition. Far to many variables to give a true comparison.
ReplyDeleteI will only judge RH on his performances so far.
I will admit that I am getting worried about his statements/interviews to the media.
I was surprised about what he said about Glen Johnson.
I didn't agree with what Reina did and I also don't agree with what RH said either, for me it goes both ways.
So far he has given no confidence in regards to handling of the mediai.
I was very impressed with the performance against Chelsea but one match does not make up for the performances against Everton, Wigan and Stoke.
I can accept getting beat but not in the manner we have been beaten.
Apart from the first 10 and last 10 minutes against wigan we were outplayed and we were outplayed for the whole 90 against Stoke.
I cant even talk about the game against Everton.. hurts too much.
So far in regards to his signings I haven't what you called overly impressed.
I was happy with Joe Cole and Raul M, but not with Konchesky or <span><span>Poulson</span></span>.
My issues with Poulson is that personally I feel he is no better (possibly worse) then Spearing.
Konchesky to me was more of a panic buy. Very little time and very little money.
As for his style of play.. I find it too defensive and negative. This could either be down to what players he has at his disposal or it is style of play.
I guess we will find out after the up and coming transfer windows by seeing hat type of players he buys.
As frustrating as things are, I still say he needs at least one season.
condescending <span>1. Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority.</span>
ReplyDelete1. Overly cautious/negative tactics. Compared to Benitez, we now sit really deep, even at home - inviting pressure.
ReplyDelete2. Roy was only brought in to give stability. Has he done that?
3. He inherited a squad with 12/13 international players. It is clear so many don't want to play for him. See point 1.
4. He plays Torres as a target man.
5. He alienates first team players. Something you continually had a go at Benitez for apparently doing.
6. How many big names is Roy going to attract. Many players wanted to work with Rafa (aside from Carragher, who must now be happy with his English manager).
7. Not really related, but Roy was never the right man. Good record at small clubs, but we need a proven winner.
I really think its time he was sacked, we need to give the next manager the chance to look at who we buy/sell in january, it fills me with dread to think that roy would be trusted with anymore money.
ReplyDeleteIf it costs a few million to get shot of him it'll be money well spent, please roy go now!
Great post(s) Ryan Wong. Very sensible and well thought out. I also read the original post and thought, "yeah, Benitez 20 pts and +5 goal differential, Hodgson 16 pts and -4 goal differential -- these numbers back up the fan unhappiness." Over a whole season, that's the difference between 48 points and 60, a massive goal differential, and either mid-table or fighting for the Champions League. Wow!!
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Liverpool fan, but I'd like to comment on this. Benitez gave Liverpool fans hope. That's something you can't show with stats. His antagonistic relationship with G&H was also something that made fans love him. It's what he did off the pitch, the press conferences, the whole persona. There is an element of love-hate with Benitez, he brought Torres, but he also brought Lucas. Say what you will about Lucas and his potential, he is widely despised. Benitez was erratic with transfers, selections, etc, but that made him more likeable. It was a rollercoaster, but everyone liked it.
ReplyDeleteFans would rather have one Champions League victory and a 7th place finish than years of stable 2nd - 5th finishes with no trophies. It's the human condition. Portsmouth risked extinction for a cup. Benitez exemplifies the wild ride, Hodgson the safe one. His transfer policy shows that. To succeed is to risk. Mourinho wanted Carvalho with him in Madrid at an age when almost no one would take him - risk. Hell, SAF brought some homeless guy to play for United.
It's not just the stats - Hodgson could still do well, but it's the way he does it that fans care about.
Mr. Kanwar you miss one key factor in comparing Benitez and Hodgson in their first seasons. Benitez came for La Liga and had no experience of the Premier League. Roy has been around the PL for a long time and should know what to expect. He seems surprised every week when they come gunning for Liverpool. I suspect that Rafa understands English football better than Roy - to this day.
ReplyDeleteSorry I thought you were saying the like of Spurs and City (the same could be said for Everton, and also Chelsea's dominance hadn't kicked in at this point) were poor sides when Benitez took over? So that may be why it was easier to finish top 4 (final season under Houllier) as opposed to 7th last season under Benitez. You change your opinion and stats to make your argument sound convincing...
ReplyDeleteAs a Liverpool supporter living 10,000 kms away I wait all week to either follow the match on internet or watch on cable those lucky weeks they show a match. Sure, as Liverpool supporters we've been spoilt. There was a time when even if we lost you knew each and every player would run his butt off, close down opponents and actually attack. The problem is not one of statistics and Jaimie you shouldn't take every piece of criticism as a personal attack on you. The problem is how utterly heart-breaking it was to watch Liverpool versus Stoke. No spirit, no imagination, no ideas. For some time I blamed the situation with the Yanks. Now we have new owners who have given us a spark of hope but the only person who can turn that spark into the flame we are used to seeing as Liverpool fans is Roy Hodgson. We're not desperate because he's losing or not, we're desperate because we don't see that he has injected the Liverpool spirit into the team. We don't want facts that tell us that Hodgson is just as BAD as the previous two managers. We want a break in the clouds. YNWA
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to my comment again?
ReplyDeleteThere was no way that was in breech - just unable to respond were we?
Come on give Jamie a break.
ReplyDeleteLet's get behind the manager at least till January
Liverpool are a team in transition. With only three world class players left at the club. We have to remember other clubs have improved and maybe Liverpool need to take one step back yo move forward .I don't think any amounts of tactics will sort this team out. Rafa unfortunately left us short on the playing side. That's where the downfall lies.
you seem to be attacking people who do that aswell, i think we should give hogdson a bit more time also but the way you are replying to these comments is surprising, why have a website if you want 90% of the people who visit and comment to never come back?
ReplyDeleteJaimie you never fail to disappoint... Your views are pure comedy. To compare Benitez and Hodgson's first 22 or so games is impossible. How can you include European competition when we were in two very different competitions? Let's not forget our Champions League group in 2005 included the beaten finalists (Monaco) and semi-finalists (Deportivo) from the previous seasons competition. Slighlty stronger units than the rubbish we've seen in Europe this season wouldnt you say?
ReplyDeleteHere's some facts, Hodgson has brought in four players. Cole whilst undoubtedly talented has been very disappointing, and I hardly think Chelsea are losing any sleep over losing him. Meireles, whilst undoubtedly a decent footballer, our manager seems unsure of his best position. I find it slightly worrying that our manager can spend a huge chunk of our limited transfer budget on a player who he cant decide where best to play him. And as for Poulsen and Konchesky, they are two of the worst players ever to grace a red shirt. The much maligned Insua is twice the player Konchesky will ever be.
Roy Hodgson is tactically naive, he has no plan A let alone a plan B when things are not going well. We are one-dimensional, lack fluidity and have no coherence.
Everytime he opens his mouth he embarrasses the club and its great supporters. He is trying his best to alienate half the squad. The board need to act now, for one we cant trust Hodgson to spend what funds we have sensibly, and secondly before too long the like of Reina and Torres will say enough is enough and leave the club.
What a hypocrite you literally just said you dont want your site soiled with this playground speech, then turn around and say you are ready to slag any one off who does it to you
ReplyDeleteI dont think Liverpool is capable of playing atractive 4-3-3, Barcelona style football. I hoped once, but it doesn't seem posible.
ReplyDeleteThese owners are not about to splash the cash to bring Aguero, we can see that now, and Liverpool doesn't have a track record of producing the likes of Messi, you know what I mean.
We need someone to take what he can get in Liverpool, money-wise and everything alse, and get the team back in top, so we can wait and at least hope for the title again.
Best man for the job would be Hiddink, known for taking a chalange, but if he is unavailable get O'Neill insted.
Liverpool doesn't have condicions Barcelona has for Rijkard to succed.
Jamie you are the stats man, is it true that Roy has won 13 in 105 away games in English football since 1980 at Bristol?
ReplyDeleteWell said, all the statistics in the world can't disguise what a true fan feels in his heart.
ReplyDeleteRafa was sacked/ushered to leave because the team failed to achieve a top four finish and finished in 7th place. Benitez finished regular in Champions league spots. The team inherited by Hodgson was almost exactly the same with the exception of Mascherano who was going to leave anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe teams displays under Hodgson have been diabolical to say the least - no one moves well, they can't pass to save their lives, the defence is all over the place and they don't press the opposition. Despite inheriting a side with a longstanding issue of no support for Torres - did not sign a striker in the summer and made late attempts (should have been priority!) Liverpool still lack width and haven't signed decent wingers again!!!
He is not the right man for the club and his credentials clearly demonstrate that!! Not won any real major trophies, sacked by Blackburn and has won a shocking amount of away games in his career in the premier league!! Dalgeish should have been interim and then appoint a world class coach when available after club sale confirmed and a year to stabilise.
We will be lucky to finish top 10 at this rate - I would ordinarily say give the guy a chance if the performances looked like they were turning the corner and that luck was just not there but we have been outplayed by Stoke and Wigan in the last two games - we looked like a lower premier league club!! You may say about the Chelsea game but we were actually dominated for large contingents of that game and it was only the genius and return to form of Torres and Lucas being amazing in that game!!
We need to replace him before its too late!!
The simple fact is that we are playing worse than last season, no motivation, no fighting spirit, and even though we are within 6 points from 4th place, we are 3 points off relegation zone.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Daily Mail "He (RH) has never liked his travels - in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws"
ReplyDeleteThis is 30 years of results, not 6 months. Is this an acceptable standard? Results that lend to someone attaining and retaining a position in one of the top jobs in football?
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I have read your articles for some time and felt ypu sit and argue about Liverpool fans hypocrisy whilst all the time exposing your own. You are very anti benitez and spend all your time arguig against him. Lets face it you try and compare Benitez and Hodgson but you can't. Benitez's record, which you claim Hodgson's is superior too, was in the TOP european competition. Becnitez obtained a squad that had their top players such as Diouf, Traore Biscan. Hodgson obtained a side that was second in the league season before last, before players were sold from around him. In fact leave out Alonso, never replaced, Mascherano, replaced by Poulson, and Benayoun, replaced by Joe cole, these guys finished second. Surely 3 playersdon' make a squad!! In fact benitez's supposed worst signings such as Lucas, Kyriagos (I know not spelt right), and Ngog are linch pins in hodgsons side. He can't have gone that wrong. The truth is Mr Kanwar I don't care if sacking Rafa was the right or wrong decision, employing a man to replace him who had never won a trophy in any of the major European leagues was a mistake and born of the arrogance of Christian Purslow. Had Ancelotti won manager of the year last season I wonder if Roy would be at anfield. Now let me make this clear, this is my position and as you make clear I am not prepared to argue. If you respond I simply don't care. Just stop calling others hypocrites when you wear that suit yourelf. NO DOUBT YOU WILL DELETE THIS COMMENT. Good day Mr Kanwar.
ReplyDeleteTorres' recent goals against Blackburn, Chelsea and Wigan were worth 5 points, without which we would still be in the relegation zone. Nothing to do with Hodgson's management or tactics, just one player returning to form. Lose him and god knows what will happen because no-one else apart from Gerrard looks capable of hitting a barn door this season.
ReplyDeleteThere are times when I have felt sorry for Hodgson but he simply does not do himself any favours on so many levels, in his team selection, tactics, man-management and media interviews. The end cannot come soon enough.
Two points to make:
ReplyDeleteJaimie, the reason everyone refers to Hodgsons league form is because the league is THE bread and butter, our form, status as a club and image largely depend on how we do in our own leage - finishing in the top 4 gives us the chance to play CL (and hence the prestige that comes with it) but the leage is the important thing - remember we're all desperate to actually win it aagin!. No manager is employed to do well in Europe over the League! As for the Europa League, the competition is 3rd rate.
Secondly this comparing Rafas first season team to Hodgsons, in terms of ideal first 11 when people are available, I don't think there is much in it:
Dudek v Reina - Reina wins
Finnan v Johnson - Finnan wins - easily our best right back since Jones or even Nicol
Carra v Carra - possibly Carra then was better as he was younger
Hyypia v Skrtel/Kyriakos - Hyypia is the best
Riise v Konchecsky - not much in it defensively, both poor, Riise shades it going forward though that dried up in later seasons
Garcia v Mereiles - Garcia was decent in Europe and at home, poor away or when it got physical, Mereiles is played out of position and shows good signs, difficult to call
Hamman/Alonso v Lucas/Poulson - no contest on either front - Hamman/Alonso hammer the other two
Gerrard v Gerrard - on this seasons form I'd say he was better then.
Kewel v Cole - Kewel was terrible for us and Cole is yet to show his best.
Baros v Kuyt - neither great but Kuyt is a better player
Cisse v Torres - no contest obviously Torres
So there isn't much in it and the squad players are similar too in my opinion.
Simple facts
ReplyDeleteThe fans did not want Hodgson, no one was particulary inspired by his appointment or track record.
Therefore he was always going to be in a sink or swim situation with everyone concerned.
unfortunatley he is sinking and I can't quite fathom his blueprint, and I am not to happy with his media management.
I hate the fickle approach by fans booing and being disrespectful, but it is either a sign of the times,or the fans knowing the club got it wrong and is the only way they can communicate there unhappiness.
I do not agree for the acticle because Benitez and Houllier do not have Premier League experience while Hogdson have Premier League experience. This is the real reason that we finished 5th and also because Benitez concentrade on Europe that year, and we are "CHAMPION".
ReplyDeleteThe record of Europe is not comparable because they are playing in different level. As you can, Hodgson can play reseves and win in Europe can tell you that the differences already. And, with less fatigue, the first team should played better, but they are not. These show that Roy is more worst as compared to Benitez.
Now who's picking and choosing Jamie. The teams Hodgson has played in the Europa league are not really recognisable. So yes they can be dis-regarded. However I take on board your point about it still being a competition worth winning lets face it though only because we need to win anything. Very few Liverpool fans will be concerned about going out of the Europa if it means winning some more English Premier League points. Where did Fulham finish last year when reaching the final of this competition. I hope not to see the same sacrifice at Anfield.
ReplyDeleteI have just read this shocking statistic about Hodgson's management career:
ReplyDelete..."in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws."
Now Mr Kanwar, that is a statistic that even you couldn't twist to fit your argument.
Roy Hodgson is a joke and should never have been appointed to manage one of the biggest and succesful football clubs in the world, the sooner he is removed from his post the better for everyone connected with LFC.
You are a bullshitter.
ReplyDelete'
<span>Because it is my JOB as a fan to support ANY Liverpool Manager "in his first season". </span> <span></span>
When did you stop supporting Benitez, did you give a full season, no you did not.
Also so Rafa has 4 more points than Roy at this stage, what does that matter well the 4 points would have us in 5th place, 2 points of 4th. Plus he did that while having to try to win Champions League games not playing second string in Europa league.
Roy isnt a bad guy, but this job is too big for him, his methods do not suit a big club, especially one with a budget which is less than other big clubs in the same league.
I have just read this shocking statistic about Hodgson's management career:
ReplyDelete..."in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws."
Now Mr Kanwar, that is a statistic that even you couldn't twist to fit your argument.
Roy Hodgson is a joke and should never have been appointed to manage one of the biggest and succesful football clubs in the world, the sooner he is removed from his post the better for everyone connected with LFC.<span>
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youre chatting shit not only have we been beat agaist blackpool, everton, stoke both manchester teams and been knocked out of the league cup by northampton were playing shit football and deserved to get beat in all those games its hard watching us play at the minute having said that i agree we should support the team no matter what but hodgson isnt the right manager for us
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with the acticle because Benitez and Houllier do not have Premier League experience but Hodgson have. Benitez have worse squad than Hodgson did. I think that this is the real reason that Benitez finish 5th, and also Benitez also concentrade on Europe, that's why we are the "CHAMPION"
ReplyDeleteThe record in Europe is not comparable because they are at a different level. This can be seen by seeing a reserves Liverpool beat others in the Europa League. Therefore, fatifue cannot be a reason for the 1st team member to not do well in the league. But, we still are not doing well in the league. Therefore, it is not the players' fault, it is Hodgson's tactic that bring us here.
Hodgson should be sacked ASAP if NESV wanted to save Liverpool this season, before any top class players leaving, like Reina, Torres, Gerrard.
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ReplyDeleteYes, a squad containing Gerrard, Carragher, Hyypia, Henchoz, Riise, Kewell, Hamann, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock etc was weak. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Houllier's side finished 4th and qualified for the CL; Benitez's squad finished 7th. How can a team that finished 4th and then won the CL 12 months later be weaker than a team that finished 7th and didn't even qualify for the CL?!<span>'</span>
The relative strength of the opposition, in simple terms it was easier to qualify for the CL back then than it is now.
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To compared the league is because we have lost in other cups games. And for Europe, it is not comparable because they are at a different level.
ReplyDeleteAnd, the % of win for Benitez (no experince in thbe Premier League) in the league is better than the Hodgson (have plenty of experience in Premier League). That's the statistics that you have ingored all the way.
I am not a fan for Benitez but Benitez do have a worse aquad as compared to hodgson.
Come on, Kanwar. Don't argue for argue sake! There were not so many good teams in 2004 as compare to 2009. What John said is so valid. You have been contradicting yourself! The biggest flaw is you make Europa =equal to Champions League!! Never think that you are smarter than most of the people who are not for your opinion. Pride comes before a fall!
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean by fan hypocrisy
ReplyDeleteRafa came to us as a manager who had triumphed over the might of Real and Barca to win La Liga so he had winning pedigree and was afforded a little time to get it right
Roy is not going to be a long term Liverpool manager so why bother wasting the time to back him??
Nobody is hoping we lose games. If we lose many more games we will lose Torres and Reina. Granted we will get good money but like for like replacements are doubtful. We all hate player power etc but it is the nature of the game now. Salary caps would lessen their power
What stats can you use to describe how awful we were against Stoke and Wigan?
Our 2nd half performance against Chelsea was a step backward, inviting them on to us, we have Reina's point blank save from Malouda and Anelka's attempt off the bar to thank for the win
We were all delighted that Samba was out for Blackburn before we played them
Piquionne will be a handful next week
We shouldn't have to worry about big strong opponents dominating us. If we didn't invite them on to us games would run much more smoothly
That's the problem, it's impossible to see us get anything out of these games and that's why Hodgson will be gone soon
Kenny could be caretaker manager with a smooth get out route back to his current role if things don't go well
Our new manager can't be Rijkaard or O' Neill. Rijkaard has been successful with Barca, who wouldn't be
Hiddink would be perfect
Everyone can indeed have an opinion Jaimie, and most people who come to this site have the opinion that you are pretty much rubbish.
ReplyDeleteI share that opinion too. You are really rubbish Jaimie.
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Asking for a miracle. Time to face facts lfc need just that. As for Rijkard i dont think he would be the right man either. Its easy to pick names but the only great managers in uk are AF and Wenger. But theres as much chance of getting them as me being voted world footballer of the year. Options? Hiddink in the summer maybe. I dont think O'neil will be much good, not to transform a club to greatness.
ReplyDeleteI've watched lfc plenty of times and rafa style of football i did not like either. Yeah we won the champs league, big deal, that was years ago and we done sweet fa since. Ok the fa cup blah blah blah. Still struggling in the league as usual bc of poor management from him and at top. If rafa didnt waste the untold millions he had to play with and wasnt a stubborn old goat he would be more respected. But thats just my personal opinion, do i care about what u think? Nope as u no deep down what i say is gods word :)
Be very scared of Hodgson. some stats
ReplyDeleteHe has never liked his travels - in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws. <span>
Jamie check it if you don't belive me.
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Not sure why u keep on deleting my post can u please the quetions
ReplyDeleteJamie you are being two sided, why are u ignoring comments by Timbo i quote
<span>"Thirdly, I believe the object of your most vociferous durge of hatred, Rafa Benitez, still had a five year contract with the club when he was very publically sacked from his job. Now surely the club, who offered him such a large and long contract, should never have changed their mind about that once it was offered and signed. Surely if they felt he was worthy of the contract when it was given to him they couldn't possibly have changed their mind whether we had finished seventh or seventeenth. And yet there was nothing but praise from you when the club went back on their guarantee of a job for Mr Benitez for another five years. Could it be that you have taken this slant toward Reina partly because he credited Benitez as being one of the reasons he came to Liverpool? And very obviously does not think Hodgson or his goalkeeping appointee are up to scratch? "</span>
<span>Then you ignore John who says and i quote "On one hand Jaimie is criticising Reina for wanting to leave, on the other hand he is writing about Agger " Has Agger requested to leave? But because you believe is injury prone, you dont mind him leaving despite his contract. But you want Reina to stay right? Essentially you are saying players should honour their contract but clubs shouldnt (since you are advocating the sale of Agger). nice one mate... "</span>
Please respond to these people, particularly John, cause he has just exposed your bias, i just don't understand how you can discredit Rafa for all that he did for liverpool, when in truth, we had no right to be such a force both in england and europe, i some what question your understanding of soccer as game, you might have an astute understanding of the workings of a club as a business, but as far as soccer is concerned as game, you are clueless mate, so go ahead and answer John, i dare you!!!!!
Mizzy - learn to construct an argument without snide derogatory comments and your post will stay on the site. Until then, your posts will stay off the site.
ReplyDeleteJK,
ReplyDeleteI'll keep this short and sweet. I am the lies damned lies and statistics man. You keep trotting out short term unqualified statistics to argue Roy is doing ok but have a look at these from the Mail. In the attached article it shows that in Roy's various incarnations as a manager in England since 1980 he hasn't done very well away from home. His boring tactics and negative approach get what they deserve.
"Hodgson has now picked up just five points from a possible 21 away this season, and his side have scored only four goals.
He has never liked his travels - in his 105 away league games since 1980 with Bristol City, Blackburn, Fulham and Liverpool he has won only 13 times and managed just 35 draws. "
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1329649/Roy-Hodgson-admits-Liverpool-doubts-fans-Kenny-Dalglish.html#ixzz15JS2zYah
The article clearly states criticising is ok, patience is a virtue even in football. As a fan I am embarassed by the antics of some who are calling for Roy's head and mirror the sentiments here that our manager deserves more time and a bit more of the meaning behind YNWA
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteI still supported Rafa at the end even though he made decisions at times that baffled me. He inherited a squad that i believe to be weaker than the one Hodgeson inherited. He came 7th that season using a squad that he would soon make changes too to best suite his style of play. As he built his squad we seemed to improve each year (lots of times i didnt like the style we played) but as we were improving i couldnt help but think hes the right man. We kept improving until that few months we clicked, we were crucifying BIG teams like real 4-1 etc. We finished that season 2nd with a record number of points any lfc manager had won. Then our team investment stopped. We went on to make profit in the transfer windows, our team became weaker, not stronger. We finished 7th.
I am very unsure about Hodgeson, however if i woke in the morning to the news he was sacked i would not be gutted but i would feel he wasnt given a fair amount of time. His style of play is far from as good as Benitez. Most occasions we got beat (im not saying all) i would come home and my description of the game would be along the lines of..." We got beat/drew today, BUT, we shouldve won 3-0 "insert name" missed 3 sitters, we were definetely the better team".
Under Hodgeson most not all of our losses/draws, i have had to say something along the lines... We got beat/drew today, we looked awful, the other team definitely deserved their points.
It just seems now when we play we actually get outplayed by numerous teams of a quailty that under Benitez we would never be outplayed ( beaten or a draw, but never outplayed).
The above is all just my opinion, which i know we do not share.
One thing you have to watch out for, is your use of statistics. It didnt really bother the first few times as i just think you are trying to give a very imformative article (which they are) that explains a point that you think the statistics will make people better understand. However, it seems all your articles use statistics to explain opinions. You are a journalist, not a mathematician. Your use of statistics is very incorrect. My problem is, journalists using numbers to skew opinion. I think some do it intentionally, but i know others just dont realise what they are doing is wrong. You leave out/ignore so many variables that will have a profound impact on the result. That the facts your gaining from your results are very likely to be wrong. Other people read these articles, see numbers, read the journalists opinion, and a lot take it as the reality. They beleive what they just read as its backed up by Maths. However more often than not the statistics are done incorrect but the people who beleive do not know this.
If i handed in much of your use of statistics to my math lecturer i would not pass that module (not only just, but i guess the lecturer would think i was having a joke). I have not explained all the ins and outs to why, as my weakness is words and i would find it very difficult to explain why in a short paragraph. I do not mean to sound insulting so hope you dont take it this way, i just wanted to point out that poor use of statistics by journalists cause a lot of damage, in the real world and in football. I just feel that your unintentionally backing your opinions up with the wrong use of statistics and making people beleive your opinion must be the truth.
Be very scared of knee jerk reactions - Some more stats - in his first season with Man Utd Ferguson only won one away game (against Liverpool on boxing day).
ReplyDeleteThey should have sacked him.
We'll have a new manager eventually lets just get behind Roy until that happens and not bring additional stress onto the team. Look what happened to Newcastle when the fans imploded on their Manager and owner
Why does the quality of opposition matter
ReplyDeletehere
his first 13 games, Benitez played many of the 9 of poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace and Middlesbrough. Despite a comparatively easy start, Benitez's team could only manager 20 points after 13 games.
and not here
odgson's European record is admirable: 6 victories out of 8, and no defeats. Why should this be disregarded?! Is it Hodgson's fault Liverpool is in the Europa League?! NO. The typical excuse used by fans is that Benitez was in the Champions League, so the games were harder. What does that prove?
Jaimie id also liek to know why only respond to the stupid comments and whenever someone makes a good point you ignore that.
What are your thoughts on how Hodgson attacked Johnson in public, faiueld to defend Fernando Torres or labelled our 0-2 derby loss as our best performance of the season?
Your thoughts please
<span>Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/11/hodgson-vs-benitez-first-22-games.html#ixzz15JfNmYAx</span>
<span>Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/11/hodgson-vs-benitez-first-22-games.html#ixzz15Jf76Wkg</span>
also Jaimie id like to know what makes you tihnk you know the appropriate time a manager shud be given
ReplyDeleteI ahve been a season ticket holder for 5 years and my dad for 25 before that, i attended many games in Benitez;s first season and was never as dismayed by the performances or filled with as much doom and gloom as i am now, yes we were bad.
If their new American owners fired Roy Hodgson now, Liverpool's history would remember him as the manager who took three points in total from games with Stoke, Wigan, Blackpool, Sunderland, Birmingham and Everton, with a defeat by Northampton also on the charge sheet.
He should never have been appointed,it's as easy as that. Great for you that you see it as a job to support him no matter what but this is about something much more important than you as a fan - this is about the future of LFC.
ReplyDeleteHodgson will never be more than a small-time manager,he will not take the club forward and the sooner Henry corrects this mistake the better.I don't feel sorry for Roy at all, he got the chance of a lifetime and has blown it. He will also get a nice,big paycheck when all is over.
Pardon me but I observe that you just get too personal and I have begun to think you don't see the woods from the trees. You tend to lose your objectivity trying to always proof to others that you've done this and that and it's always using hindsight to say 'I said that before, etc and 'with evidence''.If you're good, you don't need to proof anything to anyone.
ReplyDeleteI like to think that Roy is the wrong manager for LFC and he needs to be removed before he does more damage to the team and LFC. Support is one but reality is another.
You suggest that overall performance and not just the league should take precedence. I don't agree. I'm sure that if you asked any fan back then which they would have preferred to win, and they would have said the league. Under Benitez we also scored more goals in the same period, which can probably be attributed to a more open attarctive, attacking style of play. Additionally do you not think the squad left by Houllier would have been a demoralized one as well?
ReplyDeleteI didn't like the appointment of Roy as our manager. I believed he would have been out of his depth, and still wasn't convinced by our run of good form with the exception of the chelsea win where Torres magic won it and his cautious approach secured it. however like you said as a Liverpool fan, it is our job to get behind him. I would never viciously slate him, but when I do feel that we can do better with someone else or without him I believe it is also my duty to let my opinion be known.
Liverpool fans are sensible and passionate and I doubt that any true fan is haphazardly forming rash decisions. In my opinion Roy is not the man for the job. I do not see him out tactically outfoxing anyone in europe and I do not see him getting us into the top 4 regularly.
I'm sorry but he has to go.
Hypocracy? Ill give you hypocracy....
ReplyDeleteJaimie to Rafa supporters - No-one is bigger than the club you should not support the manager over the club. Pot, Kettle??
Making the ownership issue an excuse for Roy when you would never afford Rafa such a luxury.
Jaimie often referred to "The Benitez effect" when he supposedly alienated players. Roys has been at the club 5 minutes and has alienated AGGER, JOHNSON, TORRES, JOVANOVICH and REINA. Yet I haven't heard Jaimie refer to this as the "Hodgson effect".
At least Rafa gave us reason to support him, whats woy doing? apart from running the club into the ground. Also in the first 15 or so games Rafa had also broken records such as first time LFC had come back from 2 goals down to win (fulham A) since 1999 I think. What records has Roy broken apart from worst league start, taking us to relegation zone, worst goal dif etc....
The one that really gets my goat is the posession stats..64% to stoke??? 65 to chelsea??? This from a top team??? Seriously Jaimie, open your eyes.
Firstly, I'm not a liverpool fan but i've been watching liverpool progress for years since my roomate is a big fan of the kop. I agree with you Jamie, give RH a break. I'm not saying he's the best coach for liverpool, but considering the mess RBenitez left in the squad, give him some time to stabilize the team back.
ReplyDeleteBenitez's resume can always be better or superior, but if you compare the mentality of the team in which Hodgson and Benitez inherited, i guess the differences are obvious. And i dont think this can be found on any stats :)
The team RH inherited are in a mess. Finished 7th, with key players rumored of transfer, limited transfer kitty and the worst part, all have been demotivated from previous season's downfall. I guess what they need is a very good manager and also a good motivator (like o Neill). But who knows what RH can do.
Liverpool is a big team, and what Benitez had done on the achievements (cups etc) was OK, but the damage when he left was more significant. 7th place for the most succesful team in EPL is unacceptable. Seriously, do you think Mourinho want to step in to clear the mess? Or even Hiddink? Ancelotti? it's not an easy job. The manager can always sketch the tactics, but the players are the one who put them into action. If you can encourage and motivate the players to feel like they are the best in the world (like mourinho & redknapp did) then maybe that'll be different.
At this time, the team are still recovering i guess. wait a lil bit more. and you guys shouldnt really blame on RH, he's trying to make things better despite in a very difficult situation. unless he got a strong physically&mentally champion-ready team like (barca/chelski/inter) then drag them down, then he should be sacked.
In my opinion, this comparison of Roy and Rafa's first season holds not merit. Two different squads six years apart; is it really a viable comparative? Of all the reasons I've heard for getting rid of Roy, his first season stats compared to Rafa's first season isn't one of them. Rafa's first season six years ago is nothing but history.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Roy has to be judged against and compared to last season. That is the only valid comparison. We sacked a manager because the team underperformed last season. You bring in a new manager to improve the team, so has Roy made us a better team than last season?
Up to 15th November, Roy has played 13 league games compared to 12 to this point last season.
2009/10 up to Nov 15th - 12 games played in League - 7 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw
2010/11 up to Nov 15th - 13 games played in League - 4 wins, 5 losses, 4 draws
At this point last season we were 7th in the league compared to 11th, having played one less game. We had 19 points compared to 16 having played one less game. We had scored 27 goals, conceding 18 last season, compared to 13 goals for and 17 goals against this season having played one less game.
We lost the same amount of games last season to this point (5/12 and 5/13 respectively). In every other area we performed better last season. We won more games, we scored moe goals. we had more points, we were in a better league position and this was all more or less with the same squad of players.
So is Roy doing a better job than Rafa did last season? No he's not. And that's the problem the majority of people have. We replaced a manager with someone who hasn't really improved the situation. In fact he's made us slightly worse.
I understand your point of view about giving Hodgson a chance, but so far this season we have been very very poor. Why hasn't he been able to motivate the players? That's the key thing a new manager brings to the team. Players get a clean slate to try and impress the manager and we have seen it time and time again, a new manager normally brings with him postive results at least in the short term. We didn't even get that.
He had a short pre-season but we're now in mid November. Isn't that enough time to impress yourself on to a team. Surely by now his ideas are coming across to the players? If not, why not? I don't expect the team to have completely changed, that takes time, but I do expect some poistive changes compared to last season. I don't really see anything new other than the fact we've gone back to man marking instead of zonal. And guess what, we've got a negative goal difference. Our best half of football this season was the first half against Chelsea and that was a typically Rafa type display. We closed down quickly, we pressed higher up the pitch, we defended well and counter attacked well. That was a Rafa-esque display so what has Roy brought to the table?
I said after the Chelsea game that it was a bit of a fluke, and that the important tests were the two/three games after against Wigan, Stoke and West Ham. We were poor against Wigan despite going a goal up and we were woeful against Stoke.
I don't want to see a manager get sacked 4 months into his tenure, but sometimes it is necessary. I see no signs at the moment that things are going to get much better, as i said, Chelsea was a fluke. Even when we've won this season, against West Brom and Bolton we've been poor. Blackburn was decent and the first half against Chelsea was good. Other than that we've been rubbish.
And this is why people want Roy gone; it has nothing to do with Rafa, nothing to do with Rafa's first season, nothing to with either manager's successes [...]
A key difference here is that in the league (which matters most, especially with the new threats of Tottenham and City) Hodgson has a goal difference of -4 whereas Benitez had +5. Hodgson's squad, whilst as you pointed out demotivated, is better than the squad Rafa inherited. You may disagree Jamie, but I think a majority of people would agree with that assessment. Also as people have pointed out the CL vs EL issue is important to consider whilst looking at stats. Finally, more was expected from Roy immediately because he has experience of the Prem which Rafa didn't have when he first joined. Rafa was coming to a new league, speaking in his second language and had to deal with the loss of the star player straight away (Owen leaving is harder to deal with than Masch). Rafa's start was more difficult, in my opinion, and simply put, better. Roy deserves criticism for this start.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I agree with Jamie as I have before that Roy doesn't deserve this backlash, not yet at least. I feel recent history, namely the injection of turmoil in the upper echelons of our club, has engendered a propensity for sensationalism and panic amongst the townspeople. Pessimism has become the natural state it seems.
I admit, those last two performances were dire, as poor as I've seen. I admit that I don't even think that Roy is the long term answer for Liverpool. What I will say however is that it is early days and Hodge deserves more time to grow into the role. As Jamie pointed out, the league is more competitive now, so expect fewer wins. Stoke are a team that expose the inadequacies of the Liverpool squad: they are strong, organised, commanding and hard to break down. Hodg must shoulder some of the blame but what of the players? They have to take the initiative and you could see that Stoke just wanted it more yesterday. Publically bollocking the manager doesn't help anyone. It is a selfish act just to satisfy the desire to let your displeasure be known. At least while the game is still being played, get behind the manager and his team.
Hodge has had injuries, board room intrigue, loss of players (Masch and Benny), constant rumour and a general gloom to contend with. He has faced Chelsea, United, Arsenal, City and Everton in his first 11 games. Right now it isn't great but the least Roy deserves is patience.
I also feel one factor in people's knee-jerkery is the spectre of January. Roy's poor signings thus far make people wonder about what he'll do with Henry's money. This has augmented the short patience of the fans.
"In the PL, Hodgson has now picked up just five points from a possible 21 away from home this season, and his side have scored only four goals"
ReplyDeletewe are already out of the race to finish top 3 and will struggle to finish top 4
we look lifeless under Roy and when we ocassionaly win we win ugly
that is the problem wioth Roy, he has a poor PL record and his poor record is continuing with at Liverpool.
A key difference here is that in the league (which matters most, especially with the new threats of Tottenham and City) Hodgson has a goal difference of -4 whereas Benitez had +5. Hodgson's squad, whilst as you pointed out demotivated, is better than the squad Rafa inherited. You may disagree Jamie, but I think a majority of people would agree with that assessment. Also as people have pointed out the CL vs EL issue is important to consider whilst looking at stats. Finally, more was expected from Roy immediately because he has experience of the Prem which Rafa didn't have when he first joined. Rafa was coming to a new league, speaking in his second language and had to deal with the loss of the star player straight away (Owen leaving is harder to deal with than Masch). Rafa's start was more difficult, in my opinion, and simply put, better. Roy deserves criticism for this start.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I agree with Jamie as I have before that Roy doesn't deserve this backlash, not yet at least. I feel recent history, namely the injection of turmoil in the upper echelons of our club, has engendered a propensity for sensationalism and panic amongst the townspeople. Pessimism has become the natural state it seems.
I admit, those last two performances were dire, as poor as I've seen. I admit that I don't even think that Roy is the long term answer for Liverpool. What I will say however is that it is early days and Hodg deserves more time to grow into the role. As Jamie pointed out, the league is more competitive now, so expect fewer wins. Stoke are a team that expose the inadequacies of the Liverpool squad: they are strong, organised, commanding and hard to break down. Hodg must shoulder some of the blame but what of the players? They have to take the initiative and you could see that Stoke just wanted it more yesterday. Publically bollocking the manager doesn't help anyone. It is a selfish act just to satisfy the desire to let your displeasure be known. At least while the game is still being played, get behind the manager and his team.
Hodg has had injuries, board room intrigue, loss of players (Masch and Benny), constant rumour and a general gloom to contend with. He has faced Chelsea, United, Arsenal, City and Everton.
"The squad left by Benitez was massively demotivated after last season. With no Champions League football, it was always going to be difficult to motivate certain players in the squad, and that has definitely proven to be the case.<span>"
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Roy clarly has not helped himself here by the players he has brough in bringing in poulsen, konchesfy and merieles who have not improved the squad, they are roy's players
last seaon it was clear we needed another striker, in the transfer markey we swaped left backs for left backs and midfielders for midfielders but failed to address the need for another striker.
Roy has a poor PL record and he has now brough that poor PL record to Liverpool, that is why fans are not happy with him, nothing got do with Rafa
ReplyDelete"Hodgson has now picked up just five points from a possible 21 away this season, and his side have scored only four goals<span>"</span>
Unfortunately, I think you are missing the point. I remembered how badly we did when Rafa took over. I also know that our tradition has always been to support a manager through good times and bad. Your stats are a great comparison but it does not take into account their performance, commitment, body language. No Liverpool fan will boo every time we lose. To be fair, Liverpool fans hardly boos. But the way in which we are losing or playing to a draw, is a Liverpool that is unrecognizable. It's one thing to lose and another to lose with no commitment. You can say it's a players problem but when you have an uninspiring leader, it shows. Since you are comparing to Rafa, we lost but many times, we lost fighting. You could see the lads trying. Working hard. You can't say of them now. Again, players fault? In the wisdom of crowds, something's amidst when an overwhelming majority is asking for the same thing because they are witnessing the same thing. There is wisdom to it all then simply numbers.
ReplyDeleteLol..another shebby singh from punjab wrote this article..:D
ReplyDeletecomparing roy's europa league run with benetiz champioship..rofl...
Its not hypocracy, you can clearly see the difference between roy's management and rafa's management, i always thought we can win under rafa against any team..but under roy i am just hopeless...that bad is his style and management..
lol..another shebby singh from punjab wrote this rubbish article..:D
ReplyDeleterofl Comparing rafa's championship with roy's europa run against those medicore teams is plain stupid..
Under rafa i never felt like loosing against any team, he was a master tactician..but under roy..its just hopeless....i know we will loose..against weaker teams too...that much bad is his tactics and management...i am just watching our matches nowdasy to see torres brilliance..eles...there is nothing worth watching in our matches right now....roy has turned us into the worst team of league...the way of playing is just horrible...
Hodgson don't deserve to be treated like that, give him a chance, i totally agree with Jaimie Kanwar , Zeyad from Kuwait, Liverpool Fan 4 EveR!
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