Over the last 10 years, a pattern has emerged in Liverpool FC's league form that suggests that this season may not turn out to be as depressing as many (needlessly) pessimistic fans are predicting.
The league pattern plays out like this:
Fantastic season --> Atrocious Season --> CL Qualification
Examples:
2001-2: Liverpool finishes second. Optimism is sky high! Fans start expecting a major push for the title the following season, with many believing the title drought could soon be over.
2002-3: Liverpool finish 5th. Utterly abject league season. Fail to qualify for the CL. Suddenly, the club is in a major irreparable crisis. According to fans, we'll be lucky to finish in the top half of the table in the following season. It's all downhill from here.
2003-4: Liverpool finish 4th. Qualify for the CL. It's a long, hard gruelling season but the target was a top 4 finish, and it was achieved.
2004-5: Liverpool wins the CL
Then:
2008-9: Liverpool finishes second. Optimism is sky high! Fans start expecting a major push for the title the following season, with many believing the title drought could soon be over.
2009-10: Liverpool finish 7th. Utterly abject league season. Fail to qualify for the CL. Suddenly, the club is in a major irreparable crisis. According to fans, we'll be lucky to finish in the top half of the table in the following season. It's all downhill from here.
2010-11: ?
There is also another example from the late '90s, when 3rd and 4th place finishes were not rewarded with CL places:
97-98: Liverpool finish 3rd: Decent finish. Improvement from 4th in 96-97.
98-99: Liverpool finish 7th: Doom, gloom, end of the world etc.
99-00: Liverpool finish 4th: Would've been enough to qualify for CL under current rules.
I see this season as very similar to Gerard Houllier's final season in 2003-4. In some areas, the squad was seriously lacking in real quality; performances were often below par; watching Liverpool play was torturous at times, and fans were in solid doom and gloom mode. However, like this season, the only real goal was to finish 4th, and that was achieved. That then provided the springboard for the next 6 years of Champions League participation, which looked like an impossibility after the 2002-3 season.
Again, I urge people to look at the bigger picture, and the overall context of this season. This pattern may be clutching at straws a little (!), but it definitely exists, and after a mere 6 league games, I'll take it!
IMO, based on recent history, Liverpool finishing 4th this season is a very likely probability.
Jaimie Kanwar
The league pattern plays out like this:
Fantastic season --> Atrocious Season --> CL Qualification
Examples:
2001-2: Liverpool finishes second. Optimism is sky high! Fans start expecting a major push for the title the following season, with many believing the title drought could soon be over.
2002-3: Liverpool finish 5th. Utterly abject league season. Fail to qualify for the CL. Suddenly, the club is in a major irreparable crisis. According to fans, we'll be lucky to finish in the top half of the table in the following season. It's all downhill from here.
2003-4: Liverpool finish 4th. Qualify for the CL. It's a long, hard gruelling season but the target was a top 4 finish, and it was achieved.
2004-5: Liverpool wins the CL
Then:
2008-9: Liverpool finishes second. Optimism is sky high! Fans start expecting a major push for the title the following season, with many believing the title drought could soon be over.
2009-10: Liverpool finish 7th. Utterly abject league season. Fail to qualify for the CL. Suddenly, the club is in a major irreparable crisis. According to fans, we'll be lucky to finish in the top half of the table in the following season. It's all downhill from here.
2010-11: ?
There is also another example from the late '90s, when 3rd and 4th place finishes were not rewarded with CL places:
97-98: Liverpool finish 3rd: Decent finish. Improvement from 4th in 96-97.
98-99: Liverpool finish 7th: Doom, gloom, end of the world etc.
99-00: Liverpool finish 4th: Would've been enough to qualify for CL under current rules.
I see this season as very similar to Gerard Houllier's final season in 2003-4. In some areas, the squad was seriously lacking in real quality; performances were often below par; watching Liverpool play was torturous at times, and fans were in solid doom and gloom mode. However, like this season, the only real goal was to finish 4th, and that was achieved. That then provided the springboard for the next 6 years of Champions League participation, which looked like an impossibility after the 2002-3 season.
Again, I urge people to look at the bigger picture, and the overall context of this season. This pattern may be clutching at straws a little (!), but it definitely exists, and after a mere 6 league games, I'll take it!
IMO, based on recent history, Liverpool finishing 4th this season is a very likely probability.
Jaimie Kanwar
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ReplyDeleteBased on the evidence of what we have seen this season, 4th place looks like a remote possibility, not 'likely'. There has been absolutely nothing in our play that has demonstrated that we are capable of sustaining a period of winning games. One win, a lucky one at that, in the league. Pull your head out of the sand Kanwar. You got what you wanted, you got a new manager. Now deal with the consequences. All those 'IRWT' ones aren't looking too silly now.
Clueless.
</span>
<span>
ReplyDeleteBased on the evidence of what we have seen this season, 4th place looks like a remote possibility, not 'likely'. There has been absolutely nothing in our play that has demonstrated that we are capable of sustaining a period of winning games. One win, a lucky one at that, in the league. Pull your head out of the sand Kanwar. You got what you wanted, you got a new manager. Now deal with the consequences. All those 'IRWT' ones aren't looking too silly now.
Clueless.
</span>
And you can glean all this with absolute certainty from 6 league games?! It's you with your head in the sand.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm ecstatic that Benitez is gone - I'd rather have this than have to put with his style of management anymore.
And the IRWT cult will always look silly; there's no statute of limitations on that.
4th place is not "a very likely probability" if Hodgson doesn't quickly realise that:
ReplyDelete- we are not good enough to sit off of the opposition and defend deep
- Poulson + Lucas is not a viable central midfield partnership
- Agger is not a left back
- Carragher can be dropped
- Skrtel + Carragher is not a dominant centreback pairing and both are just as fallible at the back as Johnson
- neither Kuyt nor Maxi have it in them to be competent right wingers
- Torres and Gerrard/Cole need help in the final third etc...
If he continues to employ the same systems that he has done to date, we will end up in the same position as last year, or worse....
I can see what we have been served up. I am not the one making projections on the season based on history with different players, different clubs in a different year. Like Worzel Gummidge having a w@nk, you are clutching at straws.
ReplyDeleteFunny how you have changed tack also. Last year the squad was good enough (in your words), it was the manager that was the problem. This year it is polar opposite.
You have forced yourself into a corner and are becoming even more of a laughing stock daily.
Comical Ali.
I can see what we have been served up. I am not the one making projections on the season based on history with different players, different clubs in a different year. Like Worzel Gummidge having a w@nk, you are clutching at straws.
ReplyDeleteFunny how you have changed tack also. Last year the squad was good enough (in your words), it was the manager that was the problem. This year it is polar opposite.
You have forced yourself into a corner and are becoming even more of a laughing stock daily.
Comical Ali.
I can see what we have been served up. I am not the one making projections on the season based on history with different players, different clubs in a different year. Like Worzel Gummidge having a w@nk, you are clutching at straws.
ReplyDeleteFunny how you have changed tack also. Last year the squad was good enough (in your words), it was the manager that was the problem. This year it is polar opposite.
You have forced yourself into a corner and are becoming even more of a laughing stock daily.
Comical Ali.
I can see what we have been served up. I am not the one making projections on the season based on history with different players, different clubs in a different year. Like Worzel Gummidge having a play with himself, you are clutching at straws.
ReplyDeleteFunny how you have changed tack also. Last year the squad was good enough (in your words), it was the manager that was the problem. This year it is polar opposite.
You have forced yourself into a corner and are becoming even more of a laughing stock daily.
Comical Ali.
PS Why did you delete this originally?
PPS If you want a real debate, register at Vital Liverpool and we can post there. Unfortunately, you won't be able to edit all responses but sure you are intelligent enough. Right?
KB - As long as you continue to include snide remarks in your posts they will be deleted. 'Intelligent' people debate without resorting to petty insults - I don't waste my time with people who can't get their points across properly. And that includes you (at this moment).
ReplyDeleteBut you are the King of snide remarks. I have lost count how many people you have called 'stupid' or lacking intelligence on here because they have the temerity to disagree with you and to actually back up their arguments with substantiated fact.
ReplyDeleteHow does that work?
Admit it, you delete posts when they prove you wrong.
Jaimie, Jaimie, Jaimie. Why did you delete it again? I wasn't snide, i wasn't rude. I simply asked why you are allowed to doubt people's intelligence (and you do, on many occasions) yet others aren't allowed to do the same?
ReplyDeleteIs it because it is your ball and you will take it home?
Can you really see Liverpool finishing higher than Chelsea, Utd, City or Arsenal.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool's problem in strength in depth. Those "patterns" you show are utterly meaningless and have no bearing on this season's Premiership.
Liverpool only have 1 world class player, and you cannot rely on Torres alone. Have you seen your subs bench lately? No strikers at all, whereas Utd can boast Rooney, Berbatov, Macheda, Owen, Hernandez
Why oh why did you sell Bellamy, Crouch, Keane. Imagine if those 3 were still at the club!
Finishing above City, absolutely. City have finished 10th, 9th and 5th over the last 3 years, and that's with all the money they've spent. Why is it so hard to believe Liverpool can finish above them?
ReplyDeleteWe don't have to finish above Arsenal, man U and Chelsea - just above City.
Isnt 10th, 9th and 5th showing that they are on an upward climb.
ReplyDeleteMancini has been very clever this summer and the nucleus of their team is English, which will bode well for them, especially in the winter. City can afford to have many injuries and still beat most teams. Liverpool need Torres to be injury free and on form for the whole season, which is unlikely given his track record
Whether you like it or not, having a strong squad is key, and Liverpool just wont be able to cope with both the Europa League and Premiership with only 1 striker....which is why Chelsea will also fall short come May as they only have Drogba and Anelka and no one else to replace them.
If you need to change a game, who are you going to bring on?
Kanwar, U wud rather have hodgson than benitez?? Are you taking the p!$$?
ReplyDeleteHe has no clue. Id rather put up with Benitez style and antics than Ferguson's best friend Hodgson. He's a nice guy, thats about it really. Benitez fights for liverpool.
Isn't Roy Hodgson also good mates with Kenny Dalglish?
ReplyDeleteYou Rafa lovers will never get over the fact that he is gone. Wake up you wankers, the time for change at this club has arrived. Get used to it or go follow Afar at Inter where he now also needs to sell to buy.
Yeah, as we are undoubtedly on the way up since he has left. Liverpool bottom 6. Inter, top of the league.
ReplyDeleteAye, but we are the clueless ones.
That is only because Afar took over from a winning team lead by Jose M. He will fail at Inter, mark my words...
ReplyDeleteMourinho also took over a winning team from Mancini.
ReplyDeleteThats the thing with you lot who hated our European cup winning manager, you try to cover all bases. If he doesn't do well, it is his fault. If he does do well, it is due to Mourinho. Exact same with Hodgson, after all you claim it isn't his fault we are crap presently but Rafa's. If he was to do well, who would receive the credit? You have it set up that Rafa can't win and won't credit him in any circumstances. Well, even in his worst season with us we were better than we are presently and that is undisputed fact.
Entrenched insanity but you will see. I am surprised you haven't already.
We said 'you will only miss him when he is gone'. So far we are bang on the money.
3 months into Roy's career at LFC and so far you are "bang on the money"? That is probably one of the most ingenious comments I have ever heard.
ReplyDeleteI will back Roy and believe that he will deliver the Holy Grail.
Our Champions League winner? The fans who claim that the squad which Houllier left which walked onto the field against AC Milan was worse than "the master tactician's" which is left for Roy? Bravo!
Now Roy is being shafted up the ass with the "legacy" of Afar who guaranteed 4th and made a complete jackass out of himself and now Roy is being shafted up the ass for being left to fix the disaster...
10 out of 10 mate.
Ahaha, so it was Houllier who won the Champs Lge then. I suppose it was Hector Cuper who won the league twice for Valencia.
ReplyDeleteThe comment was 'so far, we are bang on the money'. Care to dispute that given our previous manager is top of the league in Italy and cutting swathes through the Champs lge, whereas our new manager has clearly regressed us. So far, is this not the case?
I realise it is futile arguing with you as you have so far shown the footballing nous of a manc.
Yeah, he made a total jackass of himself in May 2005.
ReplyDeleteBut then that was all Houllier wasn't it?
Clampett.
And Afar built a team which couldnt win the Carling cup...
ReplyDeleteThe CL was still mostly Houlliers team...
Let me explain:
CL 2005 Final
DUDEK, FINNAN, CARRA, HYPPIA, TRAORE, ALONSO, GARCIA, STEVIE, RIISE, KEWEL, BAROS.
CARSON, jOSEMI, HAMANN, NUNES, BISCAN, CISSE, SMICER, BAROS.
BRAVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
And lets not forget who gave afar the oppertunity to feature in the CL that season, Houllier and Thompson... Without them Afar would have achieved F*** all...
ReplyDeleteSo a manager makes better use of a team than a previous one. How shockingingly terrible!!! Great performance tonight wasn't it???? I see you avoided the others points, will take that as submission. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteIf Roy wins the Europa league this year, is it rafa's achievement then? I know it is stupid but is your logic after all!
ReplyDeleteJaimie,
ReplyDeleteyou deleted someone for using uninteligent language and there is this guest fella who showing he is no better but it seems if they confirm your point they can insult to everyone here.
not fair
Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteyou deleted someone for using uninteligent language and there is this roy hogson brigade fella who showing he is no better but it seems if they agree with your point they can insult anyyone here.
not fair
Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/09/history-could-be-repeating-itself-at.html#ixzz112dUHlq4
why dont you delete the man in same page who called rafa's supporter wankers
ReplyDeleteit seems a bit of double standard
you are not supporter of roy hodgson but rafa hater.
ReplyDeletei support roy or rafa or whoever is in charge of my team as i think fans support will make us stronger.
rafa does not need to proof anything to you or anyone like you, the truth is he got sacked from liverpool and he was straight to another big club as manager with in two days, tha proves me he is still got it. can we say that about roy or martin o neil. I heard Martin o neil might go back to leicester just show you they calibre. Roy has been managing 34 years and won no trophy with any significant meanwhile Rafa has. just open your eyes and see it and stop having a go at a manager who left us, as it looks like you are bitter and sad.
No, if Roy wins the Europa this season it is going to make you a sour puss because you will say something like he overachieved just like Afar to you overachieved in 08/09 by finishing 2nd but won the CL with Houlliers team in 2005. F****** brilliant.
ReplyDeleteAnd what has Afar left for Roy, the f****** Europa league and Roy still had to go through the qualifying round. Great stuff, luckily Portsmouth werent granted European football otherwise Afar would have left us with no European football this season. so how could Roy be having a chance in the CL if Afar could only manage 7th. Houllier and Thompson did Afar a favour...
There is the most famous man in our history that said...
'If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing.'
Benitez achieved f*** all by finishing second my friend... He is useless.
If Roy wins the Europa league this year, is it rafa's achievement then? I know it is stupid but is your logic after all!
ReplyDeleteHe won the champions league and the fa cup, did you forget? And you didn't answer my question- if we win it, is it rafa's? After all, he had to go through a qualifying round in 04/05. You are avoiding everything I ask. Scared?
ReplyDeleteMo, my comments can be deleted for all I care. The fact that one spaniard can be hailed a hero and be put into the same row as OUR GREATS is sickening. Shankly, Paisley and Fagan are our greatest MANAGERS ever. Rafa shouldnt even be mentioned in the same context...
ReplyDeleteMo, my comments can be deleted for all I care. The fact that one spaniard can be hailed a hero and be put into the same row as OUR GREATS is sickening. Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish are our greatest MANAGERS ever. Rafa shouldnt even be mentioned in the same context...
ReplyDeleteIf first is first and second is nothing what, pray tell, is 16 th?
ReplyDeletei never put them in any legend group but i know and i think you know he is a one of the top managers in europe, now you denying that makes you look a little bit like the adjective you call rafa supporters.
ReplyDeletehe had a bad season with liverpool however his record here and in Valencia has made him a top managers, i am not going ot predict if he will carry on stayig there as top managers or if he s going to win or lose at inter as i cant guess what will happen in future but base of what he hasachieved sofar he is one of the topp managers in europe. Roy or martin are good managers in lower category and again i cant predcit what future will be like hope. i sincerley want and pray that roy will win something with liverpoolbut os far after 34 years managemnt he has won nothing except being good friend of ferguson
Mo - I've been out for e few hours but when I return I'll sort out the offending posts. I can't monitor comments 24/7! I'll also update the comment filter so comments like that are held for moderation. JK
ReplyDeleteSent from iPhone
On 30 Sep 2010, at 20:14, "Echo" <js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irlt44pqke9a0mtg0ju5s4k10ka5tplf734sfmpj20> wrote:
</js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irlt44pqke9a0mtg0ju5s4k10ka5tplf734sfmpj20>
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but I completely disagree. I really do hope we finish fourth and if we start playing better that's not an impossibility of course. However your examples miss out the fact that in 2003-04 the top four was pretty established and so we could afford to drop out knowing that the following season all things being equal we would get back into the top four again. Last year was the first time that it became in my view that the top four is no longer that. We are now competing with Tottenham and Man City (+ Aston Villa if Houllier performs ha ha) for fourth place.
And I think its legitmate to raise questiions even after six games with reqard to why liverpool as so bad at the moment. Yes we had a tough start but if we can put on decent performances to beat sunderland and Birmingham how do you expect us to come fourth.
Now your saying the squad needs over hauling which I don't agree with also we have lost two players that made the team tick mascharono and alonso. But our first team team squad is still very strong. What we lack and have lacked for the past two seasons is a striker to take the pressure of Torres and until that problem is resolved we will continue to struggle.
<span>Jamie, </span><span>
ReplyDelete</span><span> </span><span>
</span><span>I'm sorry but I completely disagree. I really do hope we finish fourth and if we start playing better that's not an impossibility of course. However , I don't think that this is necessarily history repeating itself at all. In 2003-04 the top four was pretty established and so we could afford to drop out knowing that the following season all things being equal we would get back into the top four again. Last year was the first time that it became clear in my view that the top four is no longer that. We are now competing with Tottenham and Man City (+ Aston Villa if Houllier performs ;) </span><span>) for fourth place. </span><span>
</span><span> </span><span>
</span><span>And I think its legitmate to raise questions even after six games with reqard to why liverpool as so bad at the moment. Yes we've had a tough start but if we can put on decent performances to beat sunderland and Birmingham how do you expect us to come fourth. Even tonight's match against Utrecht showed us devoid of ideas and passion and Torres against looked listless.</span><span>
</span><span> </span><span>
</span><span>Now your saying the squad needs over hauling which I don't agree with also we have lost two players that made the team tick mascharono and alonso. But our first team team squad is still very strong. What we lack and have lacked for the past two seasons is a striker to take the pressure of Torres and until that problem is resolved we will continue to struggle.</span><span><span>
Man City have spent a lot of money and how you can look at that squad full of talent and strengh in depth and suggest that we can finish above them even with Tottenham also playing well and having a strong first team and squad is laughable at the moment given the way we are playing. Yes things may change but is legitimate and right for fans to discuss this.</span></span>
That may be true but if Hodgeson fails to ensure that we qualify for the CL then he will have proved to be useless too.... I dont care the Europa league Liverpool need to be in the CL so that we can attract quality players and have a chance at winning the premiership. I hope that Roy gets time and the money to mould the team and help us on to success.
ReplyDeleteMo
ReplyDeleteI have heard our fans calling Roy "one of the yanks". That is being utterly disgraceful to a manager who has been appointed by LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB. They shouldnt even regard themselves as fans. To say that Roy has won nothing is also being very narrow minded too.
He has a great reputation having managed at club and international levels. Inter appointed him twice. He has manged all over europe. Have some respect for the man. He deserves to be given a chance just like every other manager that has been at the club.
Mate, I at one stage also screamed In Rafa We Trust but after 08/09 I just couldnt be bothered. I gave Rafa his chance and for me he blew it. I will give Roy his chance just as I did for Rafa and judge him when his time comes not freaking 3 months into his job.
ok, Jaimie, i take your point, he is actually making a joke of himself.
ReplyDeleteI give Roy a chance and will never slag him off or call him names and i really hope he does well with us.
ReplyDeleteI dont get your logic about he is a good manager because he managed Inter twice, when we both know that so far he has not won anything. he s 63 or 64, isnt he?
so maybe he got the job twice because he s a close friend of thier president .... i dont know why he got that job twice but i know it was not for his winning trophies.
in regard to Rafa, i know he made mistakes, i cant dispute that and our last season was really bad, but i still think he is one of the best atm in europe and he idd his best for us, so i wish him all the best.
We lack width and pace, it has been lacking for years. We are not able to break the oppositions defence. Yes we do need another striker but what is the use of another striker when there is nobody at the moment who can cut past a defender and put in a cross?
ReplyDeleteRoy's style of play aint going to work unless there are natural wingers in the team. I wouldnt be suprised if he goes into the market come Jan to sign players who will fit missing pieces into the empty puzzle.
Mo
ReplyDeleteGo do some reaserch on Roy, he has one plenty of trophies but we will always have those who say that the leagues where he won the trophies are pathetic...
Jamie
ReplyDeletei would appreciate if you would not delete my comments. just take out the "wanker" part. :-D
it seems you answered your own question, so i rest my case.
ReplyDeleteThat's what i would've done anyway. I only delete posts that 100% abusive/snide etc. You've made lots of excellent points, so I wouldn't want lose your comments :)
ReplyDeleteI didn't realise Houllier Bought gerrard and Carragher...
ReplyDeleteJaimie: Can you name me just one performance since the Arsenal game which has fuelled your unfounded optimism this season for a fourth place finish? If all you can do is keep using previous unrelated trends to support your position then you have no credible argument. You keep banging the same "it'll come good" drum, but you blindly ignore the obvious discontent and disharmony on the pitch whilst offering the meaningless "evidence" of previous seasons. Well guess what? We have a worse squad than in previous seasons, we have a worse manager than in previous seasons (Souness notwithstanding), we have absolutely no money, and we are competing with at least 6 teams who are much better equipped than us for the Premier league challenge. You really need to pull your head out of the red-tinted sand and face up the the stark reality of our disastrous situation.
ReplyDeleteWe have a worse squad because of Benitez's gross mismanagement of transfer fund.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to refer to performances to underpin my optimism - it's only been 6 games; I'm not going to start criticising the manager until after Christman at least (and even then, only if it's absolutely warranted).
There are many reasons why performances have been below par so far:
* Benitez wasting money
* Torres recovering from insjury/lack of confidence
* World Cup year
* Less than strenuous pre-season
* Squad used to playing the Benitez way
* New manager trying to change the Benitez philosophy
* new players adapting to a new league (Meirelles/Jovanovic)
* Squad depth poor due to crap Benitez signings (Lucas/Babel etc, plus Aquilani leaving because he couldn't cut it).
Hodgson has a touch job, but I'm sure he will get it right. Calling for his head now is just fickle. You're not seeing the bigger picture. it doesn't matter how badly we play - all that matters is we get 4th place, just like in 2003-4.
I have faith that Liverpool will do it. I just have that feeling, and based on past experience, I'm rarely wrong on things like this. For example, in 2001-2, we finished 2nd. I predicted that the next season we would finish 5th. No one would have it (due to our 2nd place finish), but what happened? We finished 5th.
It's possible to discern patterns of play/predict how things might go if you remain completely objective and unbiased when it comes to the team.
And past history *is* sometimes an indicator of how things might progress in the future. That has been proven time and time again.
Of course, there is always the possibility that things might go pear shaped, and we finish outside the top 4. If that happens, then so be it. Hodgson would probably have to go in those circumstances, but I'm not going to get all suicidal over it if it does happen. Life goes on. LFC goes on, and whether it's this season or next, we will return to where we should be.
When it comes to having faith, it's not something that can easily explained; you just feel it. I lost faith under Benitez; I feel much more positive now that he's gone.
We have a worse squad because of Benitez's gross mismanagement of transfer funds.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to refer to performances to underpin my optimism - it's only been 6 games; I'm not going to start criticising the manager until after Christman at least (and even then, only if it's absolutely warranted).
There are many reasons why performances have been below par so far:
* Benitez wasting money
* Torres recovering from insjury/lack of confidence
* World Cup year
* Less than strenuous pre-season
* Squad used to playing the Benitez way
* New manager trying to change the Benitez philosophy
* new players adapting to a new league (Meirelles/Jovanovic)
* Squad depth poor due to crap Benitez signings (Lucas/Babel etc, plus Aquilani leaving because he couldn't cut it).
*Hodgson getting used the role and making tactical mistakes whilst he figures out his best XI
Hodgson has a tough job, but I'm sure he will get it right. Calling for his head now is just fickle. You're not seeing the bigger picture. it doesn't matter how badly we play - all that matters is we get 4th place, just like in 2003-4.
I have faith that Liverpool will do it. I just have that feeling, and based on past experience, I'm rarely wrong on things like this. For example, in 2001-2, we finished 2nd. I predicted that the next season we would finish 5th. No one would have it (due to our 2nd place finish), but what happened? We finished 5th.
It's perfectly possible to discern patterns of play/predict how things might go if you remain completely objective and unbiased when it comes to the team.
And past history *is* sometimes an indicator of how things might progress in the future. That has been proven time and time again.
Of course, there is always the possibility that things might go pear shaped, and we finish outside the top 4. If that happens, then so be it. Hodgson would probably have to go in those circumstances, but I'm not going to get all suicidal over it if it does happen. Life goes on. LFC goes on, and whether it's this season or next, we will return to where we should be.
When it comes to having faith, it's not something that can easily explained; you just feel it. I lost faith under Benitez; I feel much more positive now that he's gone.
Whilst I appreciate the reply, you've again just mistaken your own blind faith and negativity towards Rafa for reality.
ReplyDeleteFor example:
Lucas was the youngest ever winner of the Brazilian player of the year award when we bought him; Babel a young dynamic forward who'd just lit up an international tournament. Remind me why they were poor signings before they'd even joined? Rafa's approach to developing them failed, it wasn't because they were/are bad players. Incidentally Rafa's approach improved players such as Reina, Agger, Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, and Benayoun. Hardly a damning indictment. And Lucas' form has nose-dived under Hodgson following some decent performances last season.
Hodgson's signings/attempted signings so far (that we know of)? Luke Young, Carlton Cole, Christian Poulsen, Paul Konchesky, Fabio Aurelio, Brad Jones, Raul Meireles, and Joe Cole. Apart from the last two who the jury is out on; happy with that? No doubt you'll try and put a positive spin on it or blame Rafa but the facts there are pretty damning in terms of trying to fill the squad with inferior and ageing players.
<span>"It's perfectly possible to discern patterns of play/predict how things might go if you remain completely objective and unbiased when it comes to the team."</span>
Two things: firstly you've already shown yourself to be entirely subjective and biased; secondly this entire sentence is just bluster. I'm certain you have no idea about the use of statistics to support your argument either, otherwise you wouldn't be insistent that broad trends and unexplored correlations are reliable and valid types of evidence.
I also felt Benitez had to go, but simply because he had finally been defeated by the impossible task of trying to compete with little or eventually a complete lack of transfer funds. He'd clearly lost his self-belief again a la Valencia Incidentally, when we finished runners-up in 2008-9, who was that down to in your opinion? Players who were bought by Benitez, Benitez himself...?
I think people would give your articles much more respect if you stopped making statements of fact with nothing to back them up. "<span>And past history *is* sometimes an indicator of how things might progress in the future. That has been proven time and time again." Utter baseless nonsense.</span>
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ReplyDeleteBut I thought the squad was fine last year, it was the manager who was the problem. Surely, since we have (in your words) 'got rid of some of Benitez' dead wood' and replaced them with players whom you rate, like Poulsen/Konchesky - then we should be better. Obviously, it stands to reason.
Or have we suffered because of a drop in managerial capability?
You side stepped the question as well. We are now approx 13 games into the season - name one area that has improved on the pitch this year. Just one. Surely we should see the shoots of some form of progress with that many games?
You will struggle with that because we have regressed everywhere.
But sure, Benitez has gone (doing alright in Italy also, isn't he?) so all is well with the world.
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong.
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<span>
ReplyDeleteBut I thought the squad was fine last year, it was the manager who was the problem. Surely, since we have (in your words) 'got rid of some of Benitez' dead wood' and replaced them with players whom you rate, like Poulsen/Konchesky - then we should be better. Obviously, it stands to reason.
Or have we suffered because of a drop in managerial capability?
You side stepped the question as well. We are now approx 13 games into the season - name one area that has improved on the pitch this year. Just one. Surely we should see the shoots of some form of progress with that many games?
You will struggle with that because we have regressed everywhere.
But sure, Benitez has gone (doing alright in Italy also, isn't he?) so all is well with the world.
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong.
</span>
<span>
ReplyDeleteBut I thought the squad was fine last year, it was the manager who was the problem. Surely, since we have (in your words) 'got rid of some of Benitez' dead wood' and replaced them with players whom you rate, like Poulsen/Konchesky - then we should be better. Obviously, it stands to reason.
Or have we suffered because of a drop in managerial capability?
You side stepped the question as well. We are now approx 13 games into the season - name one area that has improved on the pitch this year. Just one. Surely we should see the shoots of some form of progress with that many games?
You will struggle with that because we have regressed everywhere.
But sure, Benitez has gone (doing alright in Italy also, isn't he?) so all is well with the world.
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong.
</span>
<span>
ReplyDeleteBut I thought the squad was fine last year, it was the manager who was the problem. Surely, since we have (in your words) 'got rid of some of Benitez' dead wood' and replaced them with players whom you rate, like Poulsen/Konchesky - then we should be better. Obviously, it stands to reason.
Or have we suffered because of a drop in managerial capability?
You side stepped the question as well. We are now approx 13 games into the season - name one area that has improved on the pitch this year. Just one. Surely we should see the shoots of some form of progress with that many games?
You will struggle with that because we have regressed everywhere.
But sure, Benitez has gone (doing alright in Italy also, isn't he?) so all is well with the world.
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong.
</span>
Yes he will probably go and raid some other mid table clubs to add to the quality additions of Poulsen and Konchesky ;)
ReplyDeleteRoy has been a great manager but he just doesnt have what it takes to manage Liverpool. He is trying to turn us into one of his scrappy little mid table clubs trying to avoid relegation...
Poulsen has been shocking and Konchesky has too (not to mention the fact he seems incapable of staying on the pitch for 90min).
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteHow is Roy having to adjust the teams tactics away from Rafa's? So far he has been pretty similar in all ways to Rafa accept for the winning games bit...
Rafa did not make a change until the 60-70min mark because he believed his team were tactically correct etc and would then change things to suit. Yes it was stubborn but we rarely looked totally outclassed as we did against Man City where Roy was tactically inept and appeared to have run out of ideas after the 1st Half was over.
One thing is certian, we will see the Holy grail back at Anfield sooner or later and it is going to make the IRWT brigade crawl back into the holes they came from. All their hero will be remembered for is one night in Istanbul with another mans team. Remember my friends, he got rid of all besides Stevie and Carra and couldn't even win the carling cup with a squad he called his own...
ReplyDelete2nd in 08/09, my dear friends... Manure were more excited about that then we were.
He may not have won us a Carling cup as you put it, however - he sure as shit didn't get outplayed and knocked out at home by a 4th division side.
ReplyDeleteBut then that was Rafa's fault wasn't it.
Istanbul must have really upset you.
He may not have won us a Carling cup as you put it, however - he sure as shit didn't get outplayed and knocked out at home by a 4th division side.
ReplyDeleteBut then that was Rafa's fault wasn't it.
Istanbul must have really upset you.
I think you missed the part where HE COULDNT WIN A CARLING CUP WITH HIS OWN PLAYERS BUT WON THE CL WITH A SQUAD THAT HOULLIER BUILT. DOES UPPER CASE MAKE IT CLEARER TO YOU?
ReplyDeleteI know, he took another manager's squad of players and made them better. Managerial suicide isn't it. Added a couple also, who were quite important in that campaign but then you don't need me to remind you who they were.
ReplyDeleteWhereas our new bloke has taken another man's team and made them worse, which is better in your eyes.
Go figure.
Took another mans squad and made them better after selling them? Lets buy a Lambo and trade it for a VW beetle...
ReplyDeleteBrilliant mate, I want you to be the manager!!!
Who they were, are you referring to Alonso? The man the IRWT brigade claimed only to be a great player in the 08/09 season and wouldnt look past the fact that it was Rafas doing now that he is no longer here...
Anymore? I can sit here all night...
Jaimie, you have not even taken the wankers out of his remarks and its a litlte bit unfair if someone says what you like and verbally abuse others who you dont agree with then you are ok with thier comments. I THINK THIS ACTION AND LACK OF ACTION HAS PROOF THAT YOU ARE THE MOTHER AND FATHER OF ALL WANKERS,
ReplyDeleteowned
ReplyDeleteJaimie, I promise I wont call anyone WANKERS from now on... :-D
ReplyDeleteMuch appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteI will try and make this clear for you as you don't seem able to grasp it. He won the cup in 05, you claim that was with another mans team. Since the other man didn't win the cup with that team, it would suggest they were managed better by Rafa. Understand that or do you want to take this off on another tangent because you can't really answer without making yourself look even more stupid.
ReplyDeleteThe quality of players before Benitez signed them is irrelevant - all that matters is their specific, measurable impact on the team once they arrived, and the players I've highlighted have been nothing but a huge waste of money.
ReplyDeleteI have not argued that these players were crap before they joined; I'm arguing that - for whatever reason - they were ineffective whilst at Liverpool.
The others players you mentioned improved in spite of Benitez, not because of him. Benayoun?! He hated Benitez and couldn't wait to get away (see his parting comments); Alonso? Also alienated by Benitez (he addmitted this himself); Kuyt? how many costly barren spells has he had since joining Liverpool?! Too many (see my article 'Dirk Kuyt and the curse of the barren spell' for evidence). Additionally, the likes of Gerrard, Torres and Reina were always going to improve no matter what manager they played under.
Re Hodgson's signings: No, I am not happy with some of them (Joe Cole? Useless and over the hill; Aurelio? Ridiculous signing given his injury problems). However, we've had years to study Benitez's signings, and only a couple of months to examine Hodgson's, so forgive me if I don't jump on the fickle, judgemental bandwagon just yet.
re statistics - your comment is hilarious considering my constant use of valid statistics over the years, whether it's transfer info, club accounts, or career stats. perhaps you should do some research first before making such a laughable assertion?
Also, if you'd actually read my recent articles properly, you would see that:
a) I openly admitted that I was clutching at straws
b) I specifically stated that first 6 games stats were meaningless (I was making a point about how using first 6 games stats means nothing).
Benitez defeated himself; he dug his own grave; he is his own worst Enemy, and it's been that way throughout his entire career, all thye way back to Extremadura and Tenerife. He always butts heads with the board; he has a raging victim complex, and he's wilfully stubborn to the (deliberate) detriment of the team, if it means he has a chance of getting his own way.
Re 2008-9 - that finish was the exception, not the rule. Benitez deserves credit for letting the team off the leash in the last 3 months of the seaosn. however, as usual, it was his weakness that ultimately lost Liverpool the title - a title that was there for the taking.
I'm not interested whether people 'give my articles more respect'; I don't do this to please people. I write because I want to, and I write about things that interest me. If peple don't like me/this site, then so be it.
Finally - you misinterpret the comments I make. My articles are *onbviously* opinion based. So, when I state "<span>And past history *is* sometimes an indicator of how things might progress in the future. That has been proven time and time again"...this is quite obviously my opinion. After every sentence, should I put in bracks (IMO)?! That would be stupid. I'm not going to insult the intelligence of visitors - the reasonable minded readers know what is and is not opinion. If I'm stating a fact, I will say that, and I've been very consistent on that over the year. if you interpret obvious opinion as fact, then with all due respect, that's not my problem.
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You like to repeat yourself dont you :-D
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves me correct, the other man won the cup treble with HIS OWN SQUAD 8-) arguably our most succesfull season since THE GREAT KING KENNY. ONE OF THE MEN WHO HAD A SAY ON WHO WAS GOING TO REPLACE AFAR.
Hodgson has to deal with a set of players that have Benitez's ultra-cautious philosophy ingrained on their psyches; you can't just change that in 3 months. The players are also used to 4231, so that formation is used during the transitional period whilst Hodgson tried to implement his own ideas.
ReplyDeleteIf you think Dirk Kuyt should be judged solely on goals scored and nothing else then you truly are as ignorant as you are so often accused of being. I'll address your points nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteIf reports are to be believed, Aquilani cost £5m up front with the rest in add-ons. Care to name another 25 year old international quality midfielder available for that kind of money? Funny how he's been shipped out before getting a chance to play enough games to trigger any extra payments, isn't it....
You've mistaken the manager's job with that of a nursery nurse in the Benayoun case. You think Alex Ferguson's players all love his caring and nurturing approach? I notice you neatly ignored all the other players who've improved massively under Benitez and just name the couple of exceptions. Some players like his approach; some not. True of every single manager out there. Benayoun complained he was unhappy not being picked and then joined Chelsea to sit on the bench. Benitez was just a convenient scapegoat to disguise the real motivation behind the move.
Re statistics: My first degree was statistics based, and if I'd presented evidence to support my arguments in the weak and invalid way that you do I'd have been rightly ridiculed. Hilarious? The only comical aspect is that you consider yourself somewhat knowledgeable and experienced in their correct use.
In respect of your last paragraph, you made the definite statement "That has been proven time and time again". I asked "Where's the proof?". Your reply? "Don't be stupid it's just my opinion". You, sir, could lose an argument with my infant child.
I think I grasp your argument now in any case. Anything Rafa achieved was more to do with luck than good judgement, anything Hodgson gets wrong is Rafa's fault. Am I getting it now?
<span>Jaimie: You say "Hodgson has to deal with a set of players that have Benitez's ultra-cautious philosophy ingrained on their psyches; you can't just change that in 3 months." Funny, in an earlier post you said that the reason for our 2nd place finish in 2008/9 was because Benitez let the team off the leash for the final 3 months...? I'd love to hear your explanation for how Benitez can do it but Hodgson can't, especially given the number of recent signings that have never played a single minute under Rafa.</span>
ReplyDeleteOwned again
ReplyDelete^ awaits impending deletion
Don't be silly mate. That would mean praising him and he can't do that. Expect this will be deleted as doesn't toe the party line. Kansas must know he is a crank deep down though as has to edit everything to save face as can't answer most questions.
ReplyDeleteDon't be silly mate. That would mean praising him and he can't do that. Expect this will be deleted as doesn't toe the party line. Kansas must know he is a crank deep down though as has to edit everything to save face as can't answer most questions.
ReplyDeleteDon't be silly mate. That would mean praising him and he can't do that. Expect this will be deleted as doesn't toe the party line. Kansas must know he is a crank deep down though as has to edit everything to save face as can't answer most questions.
ReplyDelete"all those people who were predicting doom and gloom for Liverpool look really silly now". That was the quote wasn't it? No, it was actually prophetic. How did we know?
ReplyDelete"all those people who were predicting doom and gloom for Liverpool look really silly now". That was the quote wasn't it? No, it was actually prophetic. How did we know?
ReplyDeleteIt's only 7 games into the season. Alot can and will change in the next 8 months. You're just transfixed by the short-term view. I prefer to take the long view.
ReplyDeleteSerious question then, have you seen one single improvement in any area of anything at all to suggest that things may get better? Sadly, we are in the bottom 3 on merit. We have been that bad. It isn't about long or short term, it is about what is there for anyone to see. We need change and quick. Getting new owners is absolutely imperative.
ReplyDeleteWell said! Exactly what I've been saying for a few years now!
ReplyDeleteSimilar thing was said to England winning the world cup in 1998...
ReplyDeletelooking for patterns
1966 England 1998
1970 Brazil 1994
1974 Germany 1990
1978 Argentina 1986
1982 Italy
I think we need to write of this season...
Get in a progressive New Manager in... playing the liverpool away.. attacking play..
Been a LFC fan for 25 years... we have never been as defensive as Hodgson's team..
awful...
Was soooo happy when I heard that big Hodg has left this weekend - and the reinstatement of King Kenny has only intensified this delight!
ReplyDeleteOval Trampolines