25 May 2010

Rafa Benitez vs. Alex Ferguson - First 6 years comparison.

Rafa Benitez and Alex Ferguson share one major thing in common: after 6 years at their respective clubs, both had failed to win the title. Ferguson won the league in his 7th season in charge, but Liverpool look as far away from winning the title as they ever have under Benitez. I've completed a side-by-side comparison of the first 6 years in charge for each manager at their respective clubs. Are there any parallels between LFC and Man United? Benitez and Ferguson?

NOTES

* The comparison consists of three tables:

1. Side-by-Side season overview.
2. Side-by-Side season stats overview.
3. Gross/Net Transfer spending comparison.

* I present Man United's transfer spending in two forms: original amounts + adjusted for inflation.

* I have omitted LFC's transfer activity for accounting year 2009-10 (31-July-31 July) as the club accounts for this year will not be available until 2011. Consequently, there is no way to be 100% sure about the figures. I will update the transfer spending table when the 2009-10 accounts are released.

* The point of this article is NOT to compare transfer spending (!) - I've supplied the figures purely because they're a part of any accurate comparison. Football has changed dramatically in the last 25 years so there's no real point in comparing like-for-like transfer activity. I stress again: the figures are merely included for the same of presenting a proper first-6 year comparison.

* It's worth remembering that English clubs were banned from Europe between 1985 and 1990 (Liverpool had a further year's ban until 1991). This obviously would've had a knock-on effect on turnover/money available for transfers during that period.

* The reason I've done this comparison is mainly because so many fans have asked for it (if I'm honest, mainly people who are pro-Benitez).

* This is NOT an attack on Benitez (!). Such an accusation would be ridiculous anyway as many of the figures below place Benitez in a positive light.

* These stats have never been compiled before online.

TABLE 1: Side by Side Season Overview

Benitez v Ferguson - First 6 years Comparison

TABLE 2: Side-by-Side season stats overview

Benitez v Ferguson - First 6 years - Grand Totals

TABLE 3: Gross/Net Transfer spending comparison

Benitez v Ferguson - First 6 Years - Transfer (Adj inflation)

So - there you have it. I draw no conclusions - I'm just presenting the figures.

Jaimie Kanwar


164 comments:

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    ReplyDelete
  2. Interesting - bu tone general flaw: inflation becomes irrelevant as the fees payable for players follow a completely different trajectory. A fairer comparison could be found in an indexed pounds-for-points back then and now.

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  3. Are you English?

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  4. And the excuses begin.

    Inflation becomes irrelevant as the fees payable for players follow a completely different trajectory.

    No, this point is irrelevant.  Inflation *never* becomes irrelevant.  For the purposes of this article, the figures are correct, and using inflation to gauge how the figures might look today is the most accurate method of analysis.

    If you want to see what you proposed, go and compile the figures yourself ;)

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  5. Adjusting for inflation. How about comparing the most expensive world signings. Was it about 2 mill for ferguson and 80 mill rafa. Article is a joke.

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  6. The_Positive_One2:45 pm, May 25, 2010

    LOL, why can it not just be a comparison without the monies involved???

    The wages and sums paid for players today are astromical compared to then, so to even justify it by adjusting for inflation is a joke...

    Why don't you compare (if you have not already, you probably have, but I'm not looking for it) how much the mancs and chavs, and villa, and spurs have spent compared to us since Rafa has been here.... then do all the stats above for all... That would be a fairer reflection of how this stand even if Rafa comes off looking a tad jaded...

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  7. Compare Ferguson first 6 years with Bob Paisley.

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  8. inflation what a joke . record tranfer for a defender or forward was about 2 million in the 80s . 5 years ago its more like 30 million. brian mclair about 800 thousand then . beardsley broke record a bit later at 1.9 mill approx , so in a market 5 or 6 years ago when record was around 20 mill , ie rooney that if yoy display logic,  means mclair would be about just under half rooneys price . this is a far better comparison ,than invaltion . if this was worked out fergies net spend would be at least the equal of rafa . twisting facts to suit your agenda as usual mr kanwar

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  9. I think this system is flawed, i'm not saying that the conculsions are incorrect, i just don't think you can draw anything from this right now.

    As football has inflated it's prices by a greater deal than real life inflation.

    I know someone run a good article on this on the Liverpool website about he calculated prices compaired to the total of the record transfer made in England. This would be fairer to compare

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  10. Any more posts from people complaining about the use of inflation to calculate transfer fees will be instantly deleted. 

    I can't be bothered to justify myself over and over again.  This is the analysis.  End of story.  if you want some other kind of analysis, go and compile it yourself.

    And as I said in the article, the figures are just for information purposes.

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  11. Why don't you go and do that analysis?

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  12. I made a few typos then! I meant to say *at a rate which has...

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  13. You can not draw any conculsions from this comparison because the comparison is flawed. I think this answers your articles question completely :)

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  14. Kanwar, 

    Again, you are either extremely stupid (very unlikely) or intentionally make up correct but irrelevant statistics to attack Benitez. 

    (general) Inflation (rate) is obviously irrelevant here.  It's not difficult to understand: 

    Inflation in general commodities is much lower than that of the transfer fee of players.  (the same apply to similar things like footballer's salary compare to average salary of us ordinary people! )

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  15. Manchester United were in the relegation zone when Sir Alex Ferguson got the job with us.

    Had Benitez guided Liverpool from the relegation zone then a comparison would be fair, but I struggle to understand why Benitez's first years have anything to do with Ferguson's first years.

    Regardless, it took Ferguson less than 7 years to turn United from relegation candidates to champions. Despite Benitez being given a team in a much healthier position than the team Ferguson was, there's no way he's winning the league with Liverpool in his 7th season.

    But let's be honest, comparing Benitez on any level with Sir Alex Ferguson is an insult to United's manager.

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  16. You've let yourself down on this one Jamie. "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."  Using a benchmark inflation rate makes your analysis completely and absolutely nonsensical, no matter how much you defend it. You can throw any statistic or data you want to justify your bias, but the transfer fees and salaries in the Premiership are an index unto themselves and bear no relationship whatsoever to inflation rates or external economic indicators. Taking this into account, I suspect that Rafa would stack up quite well. Don't know that for sure, of course, so I bet you come back with your usual dismissive quip "prove it". Whatever. You have the mic. Enjoy the podium Jamie.

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  17. <p><span>Completely flawed section on fees, to see a better comparison would be the percentage of the record fee paid at the time as this indicates how the market is truly reflected. Fees have been many percentiles above all inflationary and index linking. In the past 5 years alone we have seen more than 100% inflation in fees, which is not reflected in your analysis.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>I am finding this site peddling an agenda and one that has been muddy and murky and for this I will wish you farewell, as I don’t see the benefit of partaking.</span>
    </p>

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  18. Good article. I think you would need a comparison of each teams Net Spend compared with other teams at the time. For example Rafa Benitez's spending in relation to Chelsea and Man U now, and also Fergusons spending in his first years compared with say Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton. I think you'll agree the post Abramovic era has seen a massive rise in prices and the inflation in football does not compare to the inflation experienced by the economy as a whole, it is much higher.

    Please don't put this down to making excuses, i actually do think your argument it flawed (regarding inflation), it ignores the financial strength of the competition at the time.

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  19. I'm not making an 'argument' - that's the point!  I've just presented raw data.  I've made no editorial comment.  The figures adjusted for inflation are not for the purposes of making a direct comparison - I was just interested in what the figures would be.

    It's other people who are making the mistake of thinking I've included those inflation figures for a specific reason.  I haven't. 

    People should get over it already!  It's a *tiny* part of the overall analysis, yet Benitez supporters single that out because their innate defense mechanisms kick in.

    Why not focus on how RB's win/loss/draw ratios are superior?!

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  20. Good article and thats why rafa is wanted man.
    I heard Inter Milan will sign Rafa Benitez as replacment for Jose M, subject to the R Madrid deal is confirmed. My sources in Italy tells Inter Milan will pay 20Euros to Liverpool to prize away Benitez. The question is who will replace Benitez. I will keep you posted once I get some news.

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  21. Yes they are superior but those were different times. When Liverpool were winning the league the could lose 10 games and still win, now-a-days if you lose 4 your are out of it (not including last season).

    I think it is hard to compare something 25 years ago with now, as football has changed so much.

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  22. Thanks, Massimo.

    I can only hope and pray that you are right 8-)

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  23. No matter *what* analysis is completed, there are always people complaining. 'It would've been better doing x, y and z' - 'Times have changed, so x, y and z' is not valid anymore.

    These are trite, almost cliched observations - they don't need to be made.

    What matters is that the figures presented are correct.  I have done that.  Any analysis of those figures is down to the individual.  Do you not see that?  I have merely presented the figures - I have not drawn any conclusions.

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  24. No matter *what* analysis is completed, there are always people complaining. 'It would've been better doing x, y and z' - 'Times have changed, so x, y and z' is not valid anymore. These are trite, almost cliched observations - they don't need to be made. 
     
    What matters is that the figures presented are correct.  I have done that.  Any analysis of those figures is down to the individual.  Do you not see that?  I have merely presented the figures - I have not drawn any conclusions.

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  25. Nor have i said you have. What i do not understand is why you post articles full of facts and are proud that the numbers are correct. Who really cares?

    As i said before, you ask what comparisons can be drawn, the answer is none as the comparison is flawed, albeit the numbers i am sure are correct. So well done on the correct portrayal of numbers.

    I am neither pro or anti Rafa, i am pro Liverpool

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  26. Were was United the at the end of the season before Fergie took over in Nov 86?

    they were 4th.

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  27. Manchester United were 4th when Ferguson took you over, now unless it was an extremely small league I don't believe they were in the relegation zone.

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  28. Yes, whilst i agree the inflation is the true way to try and balance the numbers, I do think that the fact ronaldo (inset expletives as u wish)  got sold for 10 times the world record fee of stan collymores in 1995 and nothin has gone up 1000% besides football transfer fees in 15 years, so its not the fairest way (in my opinion) to do this, i think a fairer way would be an average net spend of all clubs in the league in each year and then use the growth in that as inflation, altho i can imagine that is a HUGE amount of work to find out

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  29. scott - utd were not 'relegation candidates'.

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  30. Actually you're incorrect because you are basing your assumption on the fact that football transfers followed inflation which is entirely incorrect.

    For example when Roy Keane signed for United in '93 for 3.75m that was a British Transfer Record; so I don't agree that using inflation to gauge how the figures might look today is valid at all.

    The rest of the comparison is very interesting though.

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  31. Scott the Red,

    It is the Pro Rafa jerk offs that asked Jaimie Kanwar to do the comparrison Benitez vs Sir Alex.

    No wonder UTD fans want Benitez to stay on as our Manager. That way we will never win the League for as long as he is here.

    I guess it is just a matter of time when Scott the Red will be laughing at all Pool fans when Utd lift no 19.

    We are a laughing stock under Benitez and will be until the day he leaves.

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  32. Thanks for your comments, Alan.

    Yes, it is a ridiculous amount of work to do.  I have a number of ongoing projects, and that is one of them.  For now, I just wanted to do a straight comparison in the sense of just presenting the actual transfer fees.  I didn't put them in the article to do a detailed comparison of transfer spending; I think that's clear.

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  33. Jamie.

    Rumours persist that this site is funded by Hicks & Gillett.

    Care to comment?

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  34. Nick - if you want to just bitch and moan about me/my approach etc then there are several LFC sites out there (RAWK/TIA etc) that will welcome you with open arms.

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  35. Jamie,

    You have well & truly made a compete ass of yourself with this, infalation as no baring on fooball within transfers market.


    you maybe better try this....

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  36. BTW Jamie

    Doesn't Max break rule 1 oof your rules?

    1. Derogatory comments about any of the authors, the site or other users.

    Quote from Max "It is the Pro Rafa jerk offs that asked Jaimie Kanwa"
    Just wanted to point that out in fairness, will his post get deleted?

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  37. Silly comparison that has absolutly no relevance. Why compare more or less two diff. eras as the same? how about comparing the same six years and get appropriate data?
    alot of wasted time IMHO. good work tho. I AM NOT A UNITED FAN

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  38. Jamie

    I wasn't bitching, i was debating, i never once judged the numbers or data to be incorrect. I was just saying that compairisons can not be made. Like you said you welcome debate from people with different point of views, well this is mine. I think i have been nothing but courteous in my posts. you have ongoing projects which by the sounds of it are more fair for a compairsion and better conclusions will be drawn from them

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  39. It is good to see that Max changed his language, but i still think it to be a derogatory comment. How does Max know they are this Pro Rafa Brigade? That can be hurftul to some people!

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  40. I will try and explain this one more time:

    The inflation figures are included merely to illustrate the actual amount paid for MU transfers. So - in 89-90, MU had a gross spend of 5.2m.  In today's money, that's 10.2m.  Is that correct?  YES

    Is it useful?  Who the hell knows!  It's useful to ME, and since this is my site, I can include what I like.

    I make no attempt to suggest or imply that the figures adjusted for inflation should be used for comparative purposes.  It is other people who are jumping the gun there and suggesting that.

    These points are blindingly obvious.  If the pro-Benitez brigade (I'm not including you in that comment) misinterpret simple figures (containing no editorial commentatry) and ascribe meaning to the figures that just isn't there, that's not my problem.

    The inflation figures are just there for information purposes.

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  41. Nick - for the love of god:

    I was not making a comparison in the way you suggest.  YOU are makeing a fuss out of something that doesn't even exist. The inflation figures for United transfers are correct, thus I can see how much those transfers cost in today's money. THAT'S IT.  That is the extent of the comparison.  That is made clear in the article.  Stop trying to twist it into something it's not.

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  42. I didn't even bother looking at transfer spending, it's not comparable. It's barely comparable season by season never mind years later. for example (not necessarily factual) last year the best RB available may have been Glen Johnson at 18mill. The year before maybe Bosingwa 16mill. This year the best RB available could be Douglas Maicon 30mill... What I did see mainly were points amassed and win % RB was way better. Sign of the times maybe? Much harder to win the championship now, SAF may not even survive 1 season if he were starting out today :s. At the end of the day all of this net spend/interest payments/transfer truths you're showing us mean almost nothing with regards to judging Rafa. It's mainly matter of opinion as we don't know so much happening behind the scenes and we don't know what other managers may have done under the same circumstances. Think about this, if hypothetically speaking SAF came in as manager instead of RB 6 seasons ago, do you have any clue what position we would be in today? What players he would have bought, transfer money spent? Would he have generated money as Rafa did with 2 CL finals? How would he have competed against Manu, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City etc? Would he have purchased a 20mill Torres and not a 30mill Berbatov? A 5mill Lucas/16mill Anderson. Rafa wanted Ronaldo, but LFC couldn't attract him like Manu could etc etc circumstances, players needed, money avaiable, targets, etc etc - it is very very difficult to compare managers. Managers also generally work according to long term e.g. 5 year plans. So if circumstances, i.e. financial budgets, change in that time, it may mess with their plans.

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  43. If people called part of the 'Pro-rafa brigade is 'hurtful' then I strongly suggest those people who feel slighted seek urgent counselling for hypersensitivity, and to help them cope with having a very weak character.

    Hurtful?! Do me a favour.

    if you actively support Benitez, you are pro-Benitez.  And if that's the case, why is being called 'Pro' something you like offensive?

    I am not in support of Benitez, thus I am - by extension - anti-Benitez.  People call me that all the time; do I take offence?!  No.  It's true, so why should I take offence?

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  44. I work for the British press, I shall be quoting that as "Never mind the site, I am personally funded by Hicks & Gillett. Oh and Torres and Gerrard are leaving"
    8-)

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  45. Jaimie is a wonderful fan, any club would be pleased to have him by their side.

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  46. I wish I had your wit.

    I support LIVERPOOL FC, *not* RAFA BENITEZ FC.

    There is actually a difference.

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  47. I'm taking your statement that you will delete the "inflation argument" as a compliment because you clearly can't defend your argument against it. Pathetic and childlike.  "I'll only argue on MY terms". What an interesting person you are.

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  48. Makes me laugh how you're trying to discredit Benitez at the start with your N.B: Rafa's recent attempt to downplay his spending. You're calling him a liar.

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  49. You better add that I receive my payments from H+G in dollars, not pounds.

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  50. Like i said, in a previous deleted post, i am neither pro or anti Rafa. I could imagine people could take offense to be called as being part of a brigade when there is no evidense to say that i am indeed part of any brigade what so ever. Anyway  Max called them a bunch of Pro Rafa jerk offs - Offended!!!!

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  51. Nick - stop cloggin up this thread with pointless posts.  I don't need you to point out what other posters are doing.  If you have points to make about the subject of the article that don't include sniping/focusing on irrelevancies then please go ahead.  If you persist with pointless posts,  will just keep deleting them.  if you have a problem with me, the site, or any other poster, email me and we can discuss it further. (Do not reply to this message - email me if you have any non-football related queries)

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  52. Correct. Every club wants to have 'fans' that have never actually been to a game.

    *Awaits comment to be deleted.

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  53. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pedant

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  54. Yes - he is not being truthful.  The club accounts prove that; but let me guess - you put more stock in what Benitez says than what the lcub actually reports in legal financial documents...?

    If so, yet another example of someone prioritising the individual over the club.

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  55. I stand corrected

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  56. Hey Scott the Red!

    Still sell the 'without killing anyone' merchandise?

    You should send some to Paul Nixon's family, i am sure they would appreciate the irony.

    Many thanks

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  57.  The transfer figures are irrelevant to be honest - the amount of money in the game now is completely different to back when Ferguson started, the game itself has changed totally - from the power of agents to the media etc, so not sure any comparison is ever going to be totally valid.

    Either way - theres absolutely no 'trend' evident in your Utd data worth mentioning for Fergusons first 6 seasons? (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd) Utd were all over the place, and Liverpool have been relatively consistent since Rafa took over (top 4, with two notable exceptions). I'm not for a minute argue that things aren't great at the moment - but some of the analysis you do here is bizarre to say the least!

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  58. ok manc.
    lets put whiskey noses acehivments into perspective -
    Im not talking about domestic performance thats pointless.
    however
    In THE European cup terms the mans managed 2 trophys in 25 years!
    with resources aplenty and a board somewhhat beguiled by his domestic dominance - this is a stunningly bad example.
    2 in 25 years jesus nxt doors cat could land that many!
    no where else at a top team wud that be accepatable.
    the mans a myth in Euriope hes admitted his desire to win more and break The LFC history books. hes on recored as saying he wud swap league wins for more euro CL wins.
    Tactically nieve on the euro scene a sorry mess most seasons.
    He wud have been long gone at any big club.

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  59. It is not bizarre at all.  People will take different things from the figures.  And the whole reason I did this analysis is because I'm alway getting pro-Benitez fans asking me to do it, whether it's emails or requests in various threads.

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  60. Hey Max, go learn a bit about football then go around calling Rafa crap ok? You sound like one of those people who know nothing about politics but call the goverment rubbish cause you feel you pay too much tax.

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  61. What I find interesting is that your facts show that Rafa has finished on average 3.5 places higher then SAF over the first six years as manager.

    Calcs as follows:
    RB (5+3+3+4+2+7)=24/6 Years = Average league postion 4!
    SAF (11+2+11+13+6+2)=45/6 Years = Average league position 7.5!

    Yet, each inherited a team which had finished 4th the previous season.

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  62. Have you ever  been to see Liverpool FC play Kanwar?

    PS -why delete my comment about Scott the Red, is highlighting rampant hypocrisy not ok with him?

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  63. On a side note.  If I'm so pro-H+G, why would I post articles completely slating them, such as the following:

    No.  Such a rumour is cretinous in the extreme.  Tell me: if I was funded by them, would I post the following articles:

    Shut up, Hicks.  You're making a mockery of everything LFC stands for
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2007/12/shut-up-hicks-youre-making-mockery-of.html

    Liverpool hit ny the Texas Hicks-Saw Massacre
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/01/anfield-hit-by-texas-hicks-saw-massacre.html

    Hicks raps Rafa in unprofessional public outburst:
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2007/11/tom-hicks-in-unprofessional-public.html

    I've probably been more harsh on H+G than anyone on this site, as those three articles above prove.

    It's simply ridiculous to suggest I have some kind of allegiance to them.

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  64. In <span><span>TABLE 2</span>: Side-by-Side season stats overview (both tables)
    </span>

    Surely a lower loss % should have went in RB's favour ?  Is it not the case that a higher loss % means your team lost more games and therefore that AF teams have lost more games than RB ?

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  65. Only proves to myself Rafa should be given more time , like Fergie was ...


     Better average league position , better win % , 2 champion league finals ...

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  66. I see what you're saying.  The +10% signifies Ferguson has lost 10% more games than Benitez.

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  67. Im happy with it 8-)

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  68. What 4 trophies did fergie win ...

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  69. JK - you are right. Spending is not relevant, especially as it is incorrect plus the inflation you have used is not appropriate (e.g. inflation in the UK is 3% but the price of petrol has gone up by 25%)

    Anyway - what I find interesting is if you plot the points off the top for both clubs for each year (see attached)

    Year 1/2 pretty similar
    3 & 4 - we progressed but MU went back
    5&6 MU moves up and but we showed a reversal in year 6.

    Two reasons - either there was a systematic problem between year 5 & 6 for LFC or we were lucky from 3-5. Given what has happened with the financing of the club (market turmoil driven), I suspect the issue is more around the upheaval behind the scenes last summer.

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  70. I'm behind the individual because he's in charge of the club.

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  71. Fir Rafa id only include

    Liverpool
    <span>UEFA Champions League</span> Winner (1): <span>2004–05</span> <span>FA Cup</span> Winner (1): <span>2005–06</span>

      ...wouldn't see the super cup or community shield as a TROPHY ....

    suppose some would but imo a trophy won over just one game isn't nothing to shout about imo.


    PRO-RAFA BRIGADE 

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  72. You are right, all the stats do suggest he should be given more time.

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  73. it's all there in table 1.

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  74. Thanks for that, Hmmmm.  Let's hope the present downward spike is just a blip and not a sign of things to come.

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  75. I bet you weren't behind Souness because he was 'in charge of the club'.

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  76. The million dollar question. or the £500m question...!

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  77. All these figures tell me is that Fergie would have been sacked if he was just starting out now.

    To take a 4th placed team as low as 13th and failing to win nearly 60% of all league games would see any manager sacked today.

    So, as others have said, Rafa should be given more time. I feel he deserves at least another season after what he has achieved in an ,arguably, more competive league than when Fergie started.

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  78. You're right; I wasnt - I was only 6 at the time.

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  79. What a load of old nonsense and a complete waste of time. 

    What happened in the past is in the past - I don't need stats to prove to me that managing Liverpool is beyond Rafa Benitez.

    Sack him now FFS

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  80. Jamie, why are you so intolerably defensive.  You have a site like this but then you cannot stand if anybody challenges your authority.  Hell, you'll probably delete this post anyway just for me not agreeing with you.

    Everybody is fully justified in discussing the topic of transfer fees vs inflation. In my opinion both should be considered.  As right as you are to include an adjustment for inflation you are completely wrong not to consider that since the premier leagues inception the transfer fees for players have been well above the rate of inflation.  This also must be considered.

    For instance, Utd signed<span><span><span> Kanchelskis for £650k in 1991 and Liverpool signed Kuyt for £9m in 2006.  Using your inflation calculator, the fee Utd paid would be just over £1m today.  Parker cost Utd £2m in 1991, Dossena cost Liverpool £7m, Parker would be just £3.3m today.  Christ, Cantona only cost them £1.2m in 1992, that's £2m today.</span></span></span>

    Ok, so I know that I cannot provide any details of their previous contracts with their other clubs i.e. time remaining but in very similar words to what you would use, I'm just illustrating the figures!

    On an unrelated note, in 1991 Utd promoted to the first team none other than Beckham, Scholes, Butt & Neville.  In 1990, Giggs was promoted to the first team.  Along with the acquisition of <span>Kanchelskis, Parker, Cantona, Schmiechel and notable others in 91/92, the nucleus of a dominant force was put in place.  Can you name who Rafa has had the liberty to promote to a regular first team place from our Academy?</span>

    Also, on the subject of a fair and just representation, can you also put a box on your website for all of the 'Liverpool FC Fans who want Rafa Benitez IN'?

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  81. Also, on the subject of a fair and just representation, can you also put a box on your website for all of the 'Liverpool FC Fans who want Rafa Benitez IN'?

    No.  Who said anything about fair and just representation?  I don't purport to represent Liverpool fans.  My view is I want Benitez replaced, therefore I promote that.  There are sites out there that support Benitez - let them start a group for those that agree.

    ReplyDelete
  82. I acknowledge the effort in the analysis but the only comparison that matters here is the playing stats and the fact that it shows in the modern game SAF would not have possibly stayed long enough to be the legend he is to MU. Big question on everyones minds is should RB stay or if he leaves have we potentially thrown away a legend?? If anyone knew that well we would be rich. It's all about whether the man that walked through those doors is the same man with the same principles. Has he? Do past players speak of this higher being that has a fixed agenda? Apparently he treats players in a not too good manner but is this just pampered players? Personally I think so. We have a core of players at the club and a manager that in my opinion have values which if only the team could be completed with an additional 6/7 then we would have a team to win the PL with. Does he have the money? Can the scouts and RB bring these players in? I seriously hope so. Time will tell. I for one love the club and several players make me believe that there is hope!
    YNWA
    btw lol I work with data and regarding the money spent this could be done using some extra variables but then that's why my function in work get called the geek brigade :-P lol

    ReplyDelete
  83. I acknowledge the effort in the analysis but the only comparison that matters here is the playing stats and the fact that it shows in the modern game SAF would not have possibly stayed long enough to be the legend he is to MU. Big question on everyones minds is should RB stay or if he leaves have we potentially thrown away a legend?? If anyone knew that well we would be rich. It's all about whether the man that walked through those doors is the same man with the same principles. Has he? Do past players speak of this higher being that has a fixed agenda? Apparently he treats players in a not too good manner but is this just pampered players? Personally I think so. We have a core of players at the club and a manager that in my opinion have values which if only the team could be completed with an additional 6/7 then we would have a team to win the PL with. Does he have the money? Can the scouts and RB bring these players in? I seriously hope so. Time will tell. I for one love the club and several players make me believe that there is hope!
    YNWA
    btw lol I work with data and regarding the money spent this could be done using some extra variables but then that's why my function in work get called the geek brigade :-P lol

    ReplyDelete
  84. I acknowledge the effort in the analysis but the only comparison that matters here is the playing stats and the fact that it shows in the modern game SAF would not have possibly stayed long enough to be the legend he is to MU. Big question on everyones minds is should RB stay or if he leaves have we potentially thrown away a legend?? If anyone knew that well we would be rich. It's all about whether the man that walked through those doors is the same man with the same principles. Has he? Do past players speak of this higher being that has a fixed agenda? Apparently he treats players in a not too good manner but is this just pampered players? Personally I think so. We have a core of players at the club and a manager that in my opinion have values which if only the team could be completed with an additional 6/7 then we would have a team to win the PL with. Does he have the money? Can the scouts and RB bring these players in? I seriously hope so. Time will tell. I for one love the club and several players make me believe that there is hope!
    YNWA
    btw lol I work with data and regarding the money spent this could be done using some extra variables but then that's why my function in work get called the geek brigade :-P lol

    ReplyDelete
  85. Nice to see that people are analysing the way success is measured.. Wonder wat affect G+H had on d way rafa spent his money? of course, u can argue if rafa spent it well.. but i give you a different analogy.. wat if rafa took a gamble so he can play with the big boys. say wat, i have 100m to spend, why sell your xabi alonso for 30m? not onli did rafa buy him for 10m, he stuck by him for 3 seasons when he wouldnt even show he was worth 10m. then he sells him for 30m... nice deal, i hear some say. but when pool lose, u say rafa is deluded.. come on. fair stuff pls. the club is on whole in shambles.. injury crisis,,,,, dun tell me you didnt watch both our centerbacks out in d same game against spurs.. look at last season, rafa d tactician i here some say. U say i lay out d facts, n dun argue it.. my facts r facts,,, go find ur own facts? wat a load of bull.. go print dis u dh

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  86. Try to make a smiliar comparison between Rafa and Houllier with these kind of stats and you'll see that Houllier's numbers are a bit better than Rafa's. Does it mean he could've been the next Alex Ferguson too? Have we missed out on something great? No because those who unjustly got 12 years at the helm of our club share almost nothing with the Scot, as painful as it is to admit.

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  87. another deluded Man U Fan who thinks Fergie dragged you from the Jaws of religation when infact he put you there and was only saved by a chelsea like spending spree.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Jamie is a puppet put in place for those 2 shags G&H., come on.. rafa won d CL, with LIverpool on his first season. which other manager has accomplished dat?? dun think alex does... wish he took over liverpool when Fergie took man u.. i'd bet all my money on rafa.. cant? cause it's not 1986? ya.. u right der.. u say inflation, i say wat u know abt inflation.. inflation isnt standard in all respects... and dun need a person with an economics degree to arrive at that conclusion. in present market, inflation is just wat supply n demand is abt... look at city, i hav money, i want best players,,, i pay at 200% market value... so how do u rate inflation now???

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  89. nice one jamie, seems from your articles at least some one is giving rafa a little support. sad how many typically fickle liverpool fans there are out there. what a bunch of spoilt brats! have they forgotten 2008/2009 seasons 5 wins out of six against the other top three teams and the 4 goal demolition of real we looked better by far than any liverpool team in the last 20 years... end of. no doubt the two faced gob shites were all singing his name then. ynwa!

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  90. I think, Jaimie, you are missing the point that people are making. (Or, perhaps, deliberately ignoring it? Only you can know.)

    Comparing transfer expenditure between two vastly different eras is an extremely dangerous exercise as there are many factors to consider, of which inflation is just one.

    Club income and comparable transfer fees are just two factors that haven't factored into your equations.

    As others have pointed out, Sir Alex Ferguson's first six seasons were in an era when the £1.9 million paid for Peter Beardsley broke British transfer records. These days £6m buys you Manchester United's third choice goalkeeper.

    Chalk and cheese.

    As you said, it's your site and you're free to post what you want but is it really useful to you?

    If so, how? Please do enlighten us!

    However as for your assertion that you "make no attempt to suggest or imply that the figures adjusted for inflation should be used for comparative purposes", well, perhaps I'm pointing out the obvious here but by putting them side by side comparing them is exactly what you have done.

    You can accuse others of "jumping the gun" when they say so but it's you that has compiled the data, it's you that's formatted it in this way and it's you that has made put together this article.

    It seems to me that you're trying to have your cake and eat it here because any comparison of transfer spending between two teams in vastly different eras would come out looking pretty much the same.

    For your next article, just to balance things out, why not compare Liverpool spending in the years 1986-92 to Manchester United spending in the years 04-10?

    I think I can safely bet that even with the £80m Ronaldo windfall that it will be equally lopsided!

    ReplyDelete
  91. Putting the Spend comparisons aside (as these can not be genuinely compared due to market changes in player values, background funding from investments, tv income, etc..)
    The actual results speak for them selves....
    Rafa - from 4th (season before) to 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd and 7th
    Red Nose - from 4th (before) to 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th and 2nd..
    That with Manc scum not playing extra games in Europe (due to the ban)

    Rafa has a better win ratio etc in most season except 2010.

    Let's just see what happens when we have some new owners, and the press off Rafa's back next season....

    I take it if Rafa takes the club to Premiership champions next year (or even in the next 2 seasons,) he will be given all the deserved credit he has been refused so far in his previous 6 years?

    If he's the average/poor manager some people say he is, why would the likes of the big Euro clubs - Juventus, Milan, etc... be intersted in taking him?

    He is a great manager that will show his quality if we just let him do his job without the political rubbish getting in the way.

    LFC till I die!

    ReplyDelete
  92. Hi Nick - I didn't post this article to support Benitez; I want a change at the top. However, the fact that I posted something (again) that puts him in a positive light (and could potentially be uaed by fans who support Benitez to strengthen their arguments)  proves that I am fair. This site has a large readership; if I wanted to, I could just post article after article slamming Benitez. If that's my agenda like so many people contend, why do I regularly post stuff that puts him in a positive light?

    ReplyDelete
  93. Jamie, 
    I have been reading your stuff for some time now. I commend you for your dedication and hard work, it is clear that your articles are detailed and require a lot of time to prepare. Keep up the good work - I speak for many LFC fans in HK who appreciate the work you do YNWA.

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  94. read the raw data and appreciate the efforts instead of criticizing whenever you see some non pro-rafa elements.

    the reason why rafa is still so wanted is becos the top management out there have better knowledge than us, common fans. notice why no EPL clubs are interested in RAFA? and notice the interested parties are mostly hailed from italy?

    simply put, the core elements to success for every leagues are different. yes money plays a part but it's just one of the elements.

    in serie A, it's of a slower pace and thus, the % of tactical usage is higher compared to EPL. this is where rafa would come into great effects. However, in a much faster paced EPL, motivation is the key. Notice how Mourinho's multi millionaire players fought for the same cause? Mourinho is one of the best motivating managers in the world, and i would liken him to Fergy in his heydays.

    It's not a shame to admit Rafa is never a motivator, however he does get it right at times - remember istanbul? Still, he got it all wrong in the 1st 45 mins of it.

    Like players, managers have their own style of management and it might just cater to different leagues. My point is, Rafa is by no means a lousy manager, unfortunately he's just not suited to the EPL style. Inter won everything with only an italian (materazzi and he wasnt a starter). But hardly any EPL champions did not have an english spine. Because EPL is so aggressively fast, passion is one important factor to succeed as it acts as a natural form of motivation. Domestic players understand the game and its passion.

    However, Rafa has failed to build on it, there is no signs of the next generation of gerrards, fowlers, owens, carras, etc. It is also no secret that Rafa's man management isn't the best, not the worst either.

    He will be a success in Serie A and that explains why Juve and Inter are fond of him despite 7th place finish with Pool.

    ReplyDelete
  95. I win more games den alex. 2008/2009, i win so many games, so give me more money. I win chelsea, manu u, real madrid. But u dun give me more money, but make me sell to buy. I wan keep onli, Reina, Charagher, Agger, Mascherano, Xabi, Stevie G, Kuyt, Torres. U say i need sell, den i can buy. Real come, 30m for xabi, i buy 10m oni... so i sell... arbeloa, i sell.. i can get johnson, score many goals, but everytime injured, pay monk so make him no injured, buy aquilani, 20m, very young n can be good like gerard,, but also alwiz injured.. my luck so bad... nevermind, jaime say i m useless manager, but i stick with liverpool... becoz all fans love me.. i will win for u. YNWA

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  96. Jamie I have to raise issue with the constant vitriol you are spewing in the direction of people you brand as the 'pro-Rafa' brigade, or whichever twisted wordplay around the term 'delusion' you choose to label people with in various articles.    
       
    Perhaps the most common of these is: "See, this is typical of the xxx attitude of pro-Rafa fans these days". Instant dismissal of any points raised by the poster while at the same time insulting anyone else that might agree, simply because you believe that ‘pro-Rafa’ people are less intelligent or less capable of being rational than ‘anti-Rafa’ people.
       
    It's not on mate, especially as you are so strict about personal insults and the like – don’t you think you should set an example and live by your own policy?

    People raised some very valid points about transfer inflation here, all of which were dismissed as pointless and in fact you wrote that any further comments would be deleted. Why not simply say that this is a valid point (it is) but you don’t have time to transcribe these figures at the moment so if anyone else wants to have a go, feel free?
       
    I am 'pro Rafa', in that I think he deserves another season. But I am most certainly not deluded, I am most certainly not incapable of understanding basic facts, I am most certainly not led by the media, or the forums, or whoever else you are suggesting is making up nonsense facts and figures about our club and to be honest have begun to take offence as such.    
       
    I have two degrees (including a first class degree in psychology) and am an accredited (and published) writer and author. I’m not bragging, I’m just trying to illustrate that I am more than likely intelligent and rational enough to come to conclusions without succumbing to outside influence or sensationalism.  
       
    No doubt many other people who disagree with your views (aka the ‘pro-Rafa’ brigade, if you like) are smart, rational people who are worthy of respect as well, so don't you think it's about time you dropped the generalisations and insults?    
       
    Some of your recent articles are interesting, but by the time I've made my way through the comments I've usually forgotten whatever insight I may have wanted to contribute as you've got my back up with your inflammatory remarks by then.  
     
    I wonder if many others feel the same.

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  97. Jamie I have to raise issue with the constant vitriol you are spewing in the direction of people you brand as the 'pro-Rafa' brigade, or whichever twisted wordplay around the term 'delusion' you choose to label people with in various articles.   
      
    Perhaps the most common of these is: "See, this is typical of the xxx attitude of pro-Rafa fans these days". Instant dismissal of any points raised by the poster while at the same time insulting anyone else that might agree, simply because you believe that ‘pro-Rafa’ people are less intelligent or less capable of being rational than ‘anti-Rafa’ people.
      
    It's not on mate, especially as you are so strict about personal insults and the like – don’t you think you should set an example and live by your own policy?

    People raised some very valid points about transfer inflation here, all of which were dismissed as pointless and in fact you wrote that any further comments would be deleted. Why not simply say that this is a valid point (it is) but you don’t have time to transcribe these figures at the moment so if anyone else wants to have a go, feel free?
      
    I am 'pro Rafa', in that I think he deserves another season. But I am most certainly not deluded, I am most certainly not incapable of understanding basic facts, I am most certainly not led by the media, or the forums, or whoever else you are suggesting is making up nonsense facts and figures about our club and to be honest have begun to take offence as such.   
      
    I have two degrees (including a first class degree in psychology) and am an accredited (and published) writer and author. I’m not bragging, I’m just trying to illustrate that I am more than likely intelligent and rational enough to come to conclusions without succumbing to outside influence or sensationalism.  
      
    No doubt many other people who disagree with your views (aka the ‘pro-Rafa’ brigade, if you like) are smart, rational people who are worthy of respect as well, so don't you think it's about time you dropped the generalisations and insults?   
      
    Some of your recent articles are interesting, but by the time I've made my way through the comments I've usually forgotten whatever insight I may have wanted to contribute as you've got my back up with your inflammatory remarks by then. 
     
    I wonder if many others feel the same.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Hi Prakash - I'm humbled by your kind words.  Thank you.  I'm glad you enjoy the site :)

    ReplyDelete
  99. Lets all laugh at Kanwar10:38 pm, May 25, 2010

    http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=173787

    ReplyDelete
  100. Probably one of the best comments I have seen on here in ages RedJohn40. However by disagreeing with Mr. Kanwar you will find your comment, pretty much like this one, deleted or belittled.

    Others far more qualified and experienced than Jaimie have taken him to task over his articles and constant belittlement. However, Jaimie shows a childish tendency to 'throw his toys out of the pram' everytime someone tries to share a differing point of view. This is usually seen by deletion of comments, heavy editing of articles as he realises he's wrong, editing of comments or banning from the site. No matter how rationale the argument is.

    I echo your comments RE: Rafa. Given the problems within the club, which may not be apocalyptic but serious none the less, he deserves the chance to try and get us back on track. He did it with Valencia despite the spending power of Real Madrid and Barcelona and I'm adamant he's the right man to lead us. 

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  101. Anyone who ever thought that because Fergie took 7 years to win a league Benitez should get the same is retarded.

    Fergie took over a club that was mid-table and full of ageing drunks. Benitez got a side that had only finished lower than 5th once in the previous 10 years and had players good enough to help him win the CL and the FA cup in his first 2 years.  Still the only things he has won.

    As a Liverpool fan it pains me to say Ferguson is a massivley superior manager and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a bit dumb.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Totally agree Steve - United were in terrible shape when Ferguson took over. He had to completely transform every level of the club, and the drinking culture he had to deal with should not be underestimated.  I'm a LFC fan too but i prefer to be truthful: Along with the likes of Shankly, Paisley and Clough, Ferguson is one of the greatest managers the UK (and the world) has ever seen.  Streets ahead of Benitez.

    ReplyDelete
  103.  (EDITOR) J K YOU CHAT SHIT !.AND TYPE IT...


    I support LIVERPOOL FC, *not* RAFA BENITEZ FC. "

    Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-alex-ferguson.html#ixzz0oz1ERqsN5 YEARS AGO TODAY
    I would of liked to heard the bubbles coming out off that mouth of yours .How the MIGHTY FALL...!KNOW WONDER WHEN" SUPPORTS" LIKE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE  BEHIND US .HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH US ! NO WONDER ANIFIELD  HAS LOSS ITS ATMOSPHERE ! WITH THE LIKE YOUR SUPPORT SITTING IN THE KOP (IF YOU GO) COMPLAINING ,COMPARING STATS INSTEAD OF GETTING OF YOUR ARSE OFF YOUR SEAT AND GETTING BEHIND THE TEAM YOU "SUPPORT"  

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  104. It's absolutely not true to say that Man Utd were in terrible shape when Fergie took over. In 82-83 they finiihed 3rd in the league and won the FA Cup. In 83-84 they finished 4th in the league again and reached the semis of the Cup Winners Cup.  In 84-85 they won the FA Cup again and finished 4th in the league. In 85-86 they finished 4th again.

    So in the 4 years prior to Fergie they won the FA Cup twice and finished 3rd once and 4th three times. Hardly a team in terrible shape. No doubt Fergie is a great manager but lets be honest here, he took over a competitive team. They were hardly languishing in the bottom half of the table.

    Wasn't the drinking culture prevalent throughtout the league in those days anyway? It wouldn't hit the headlines if a player went out and got hammered and sweat it out on the training pitch the next day.

    ReplyDelete
  105. bored of huyton1:10 am, May 26, 2010

    I love the fact that you keep putting "EXCLUSIVE" in your article titles.

    This is exclusive purely because nobody else is bored enough to want to compile such a drab, pointless set of figures. So drab, so pointless and so inconclusive that you clearly had no idea what to do with them.

    Honest to god Jaimie, I have no idea what woke you from your slumber, and I have no idea what the nature of the beast is that drives you to keep trotting out all of this stuff, but nothing you've written in recent weeks has convinced me or the vast majority of clued-up reds that have chanced upon this site that a) G&H have been anything other than a disaster for the club, or b) Rafa Benitez should go anywhere.

    ReplyDelete
  106. The first two tables are interesting and informative, the 3rd table(gross/net spent) however is kind of misleading. Is there really a need for that table when we all know price has skyrocket since then? Maybe u can make another table comparing Ferguson first 6 and last 6 yrs in Man United. The information will still be redundant.

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  107. Ferguson is one of the greatest manager FOR English football. World? I dont think so.

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  108. Once again SOME good stats there jamie!
    It just confirms that rafa should stay for a few more yeArs ;)

    But iv noticed thAt 90% of people who comment on here, don't agree with most of the things you say.....

    Why do you think this is jamie...
    Are 90% of fans who accidently get directed here rafa fans?

    After those stats you know why now don't you!

    ReplyDelete
  109. <span>Jaimie, Inflation is relevant in real world economics. However in football it’s a different story. </span>



    <span>Ruud Gullit transferred from PSV to AC Milan in 1987 for 6 mil, if we go by inflation he would cost 13 mil today. This for the European and World player of the year in 1987. Messi/Ronaldo for 13 Mil anybody? </span>



    <span>If you still believe inflation figures are accurate after looking at this, then what can I say?</span>

    ReplyDelete
  110. The_Positive_One6:24 am, May 26, 2010

    You apparently have waaaay more free time than I....

    But seriously tho, you should do it cause you good at it, even if it is slanted to suit your goals....

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  111. Paul

    I do not live in the UK.

    Tell you what though, I will get on a plane to the UK and go for some lesson on politics via Rafa. Something he is very good at. Funny how Manu are round 5 times the Debt that LFC are in but you never here Sir Alex taking the mickey out of their American owners.

    Obviously you are a Guru when it comes to football and politics, so how many times have you gone for dinner to Rafas house? I am sure you have a degree by now in football and politics... 

    ReplyDelete
  112. Longchalk

    I am no fan of Sir Alex but...

    Sir Alex "Tactically nieve?" I guess that is what Rafa called him during the Rafa rant but Sir Alex showed him that season just how tactically nieve he was and why he has kept his job after winning 34 Tropies in +- 24 years with Manu.

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  113. Kanwar, it's so obvious that you've made a mistake... to an extent that you dare to DELETE my initial reply which did not have any offensive language!

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  114. Kanwar, you say that "<span>If you don't like the inflation part of the article, ignore it."</span>

    May i suggest, "<span>If you can't justify your inflation argument, admit and delete it. "</span>
    <span>

    </span>

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  115. Thanks for being honest about your opinion, Jaimie. I thought you wanted to exchange views about Liverpool with fellow supporters. But you've just showed me that you just want to get rid of Benitez whatever the cost, even if it hurts our club by doing it. That's where I draw the line. I shall never enter this website again, for everything in it screams "traitor". It's just my opinion, hope you can handle it.

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  116. Nickname

    How many people come on here and slate Jaimie regarding his work?

    Am I the only person that uses the term Pro Rafa and if it was so hurtful to others then I guess millions of us who use the term Pro Rafa are making all of those who Eat shit and sleep Rafa cry crocodile tears... So how may tissues do Pro Rafa go through then?

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  117. Max, just shows that you don't understand about football. Yes tactically naive seeing how he was outsmarted by both barcellona and bayern munich! But you are a guru Max, and you understand everything!

    ReplyDelete
  118. OFF TOPIC  .... {delete if need be couldn't find a way to send you a pm}

    wondering your view on both these articles today ...
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7136659.ece
    RBS  is Losing patience with yank's inflated price ..



    David Moores: ‘For the sake of the supporters, let Liverpool go’
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7136410.ece

    ReplyDelete
  119. Pointless bickering between LFC supporters. The should be no Pro-Rafa or anti-Rafa - just pro-LFC. The stats aren't slanted to suit anyone - they're just stats which are freely available and create an accurate side-by-side analysis between 2 CLUBS under 2 different managers.

    The stats can't lie, so read into it what you want and stop bickering like 2 playground kids fighting over the size of their marble collection.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anfield Vegetius9:32 am, May 26, 2010

    "The inflation figures are included merely to illustrate the actual amount paid for MU transfers. So - in 89-90, MU had a gross spend of 5.2m.  In today's money, that's 10.2m.  Is that correct?  YES."

    NO JAIMIE YOU'RE WRONG.

    Inflation in football is completely different to that of economic growth in other business areas.

    By YOUR method of tracking inflation: Robinho was the BTR (British Transfer Record) in Sept 2008, in July 2009 Ronaldo smashed that record with his £80m move to Real Madrid, a 150% increase.

    What you're saying is inflation rose by 150% in just 10 months in the UK which is utterly ridiculous as the UK would have gone bankrupt.

    You CANNOT compare football inflation with generic economic inflation, they are completely different.

    "This is my site I can do what I like"

    True, but utterly childish.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anfield Vegetius9:33 am, May 26, 2010

    "The inflation figures are included merely to illustrate the actual amount paid for MU transfers. So - in 89-90, MU had a gross spend of 5.2m.  In today's money, that's 10.2m.  Is that correct?  YES."

    NO JAIMIE YOU'RE WRONG.

    Inflation in football is completely different to that of economic growth in other business areas.

    By YOUR method of tracking inflation: Robinho was the BTR (British Transfer Record) in Sept 2008, in July 2009 Ronaldo smashed that record with his £80m move to Real Madrid, a 150% increase.

    What you're saying is inflation rose by 150% in just 10 months in the UK which is utterly ridiculous as the UK would have gone bankrupt.

    You CANNOT compare football inflation with generic economic inflation, they are completely different.

    "This is my site I can do what I like"

    True, but utterly childish.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anfield Vegetius9:33 am, May 26, 2010

    "The inflation figures are included merely to illustrate the actual amount paid for MU transfers. So - in 89-90, MU had a gross spend of 5.2m.  In today's money, that's 10.2m.  Is that correct?  YES."

    NO JAIMIE YOU'RE WRONG.

    Inflation in football is completely different to that of economic growth in other business areas.

    By YOUR method of tracking inflation: Robinho was the BTR (British Transfer Record) in Sept 2008, in July 2009 Ronaldo smashed that record with his £80m move to Real Madrid, a 150% increase.

    What you're saying is inflation rose by 150% in just 10 months in the UK which is utterly ridiculous as the UK would have gone bankrupt.

    You CANNOT compare football inflation with generic economic inflation, they are completely different.

    "This is my site I can do what I like"

    True, but utterly childish.

    ReplyDelete
  123. More exaggeretd doom and gloom to further the anti-H+G agenda. This is 'The Times'we're talking about here - the masters of gloom.  Buy into if you like.  I'm not.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Thanks for your comments, RedJohn.    Just a few things:    1. I only label people as part of the Pro-Benitez brigade' if the views espoused constitute what I perceive to be blind faith, and/or an unwillingness to accept that Benitez has flaws.  I can accept that Benitez is a good manager; he has qualities, and he has done some great things for LFC.  However, I can also see he has flaws.  On the opposite side of the coin, some of those that support Benitez see the good stuff, but they steadfastly refuse to accept the bad. Such blind-faith is damaging to the club in my view, which is why I label these people as part of the 'Pro-Benitez brigade'.    The real extremists who believe Benitez is some godlike figure who is incapable of doing anything wrong are even worse - they are the Pro-Benitez Cult; completely without reason, and willing to twist facts, lie and ignore reality to further their goal of deifying him.     There is a third group: Reasonable fans; those who support Benitez but are willing to discuss mistakes he's made, and will accept that he needs to improve on certain things.  They still retain their support for the manager but they're not so inflexible of mind that they'll dismiss valid criticism.    Through experience, both in life and online, it's easy to discern who is part of what group.  Classifying/labelling things is part of human nature; always has been, always will be.  If people can't hack being called 'Pro-Benitez', then that's their problem.  I am called 'Anti-Benitez a thousand times a day - I don't take it personally.  At this time, I am not in favour of keeping Benitez at the club - this means I am, by extension, anti-Benitez!    Labelling someone as 'Pro-Benitez brigade' is nort derogatory; it is stating a self-evident fact.    1. X supports Benitez  2. Support = 'Pro' something  3. Ergo, X is pro-Benitez.    It is a fact.  Quite why people who openly admit to being supporters of Benitez object to being labeled 'Pro-benitez' is a mystery to me.    perhaps it's the use of the word brigade (!) - although that word is not offensive in the slightest.    When faced with points someone from the pro-Benitez brigade, I almost always respond with legitimate arguements; however, sometimes you come across arguments that are so steeped in typical ingrained pro-Benitez generalised cliche that there's simply no point debating the issue.  It's just a waste of time as they will never accept that Benitez is to blame for anything.  Such people deserve to be dismissed in my view, and that's my right to do that. Why should I waste the time?    And you're right - there are many smart, intelligent people who disagree with my view.  This site is full of fans who construct endlessly compelling arguments.  You will notice though that I never label them as part of the pro-Benitez brigade for the very reasons I mention above: they are reasonable, and willing to look at both sides of the coin.    Being pro-Benitez is fine; being blinkered and inflexible and consumed by blind faith is not.     With respect, if you the label 'pro-Benitez brigade' inflammatory, I submit it is you who has the problem, not me.

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  125. Personally i have a opinion somewhere in between your facts and the times articles ...

    What about the Moore's article .......

    Thought both article were better put in your latest article ?

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  126. What is your point Ravish, how many teams was Rafa outsmarted by in the CL 09/10? We struggled to beat Debrecen FFS. So to say that Sir Alex was outsmarted by Barca & Bayern is pathetic. Oh and remember we have to go through the qualifying round to get into the Europa league 2nd tier trophy this season and Sir Alex has another chance of winning the number 1 trophy in Europe.

    Wonderful isn't it!!!

    Never once have I said that I know everything or am a guru about football but do us all a favour Ravish and tell the world what an expert you are...

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  127. Moores is entitled to his opinion - I have no problem with that.  Much of what he says makes sense, but then again, some of it is a little dubious.  If the due diligence was done properl, surely someone somewhere would've stumbled across the Corinthians situation?  That would be enough to put anyone one off, wouldnt it? Ignoring the warning signs there and moving ahead was negligence.

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  128. Massimo

    Please keep us updated on Rafa and Inter, would feel a bit sorry for Inter though.

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  129. I'm going to stand up for JK here.  He's inflated the figures for money's value.  What's the problem?  He is not comparing the values and saying Rafa has spent more.  It's purely a tool to get the value of the £ to today's value.  To compare spending would be very difficult on a *real* basis. (you'd have to take in revenues, expectation of debt etc etc).  What JK has done is perfectly practical, and he draws no conclusion.  I'd suggest if all the people banging on about inflation try to draw up a fair comparison based on *real* spending and then we can all spend the afternoon ripping their analysis to shreads.

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  130. <p><span>
    Looks like you Benitez lovers will only be satisfied when even the players lose hope and walk out on the club, and theres nothing vaguely resembling the dynasty that was Liverpool Football Club.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Wake Up!</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Does it warm your hearts to hear talk of Torres being courted by other clubs; DO YOU THINK TORRES HAS NOT QUESTIONED HIS FUTURE; WHETHER HE COULD ACHIEVE HIS DREAMS UNDER BENITEZ MAKING DECISIONS EVEN HE AND THE CAPTAIN CANT UNDERSTAND, LET ALONE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY ? </span>
    </p><p><span>And what of the Captain, even the once steadfast Stevie G even looks like he doesnt think he can reach his dreams under the present management.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>And lets not fool ourselves, football is on the pitch, not in the boardroom! Even with a half-strength team, the likes of Liverpool should be overpowering the lesser teams, but were not.</span>
    </p><p><span> </span>
    </p><p><span>Carry on in blind faith and we all lose our beloved club!</span>

    </p>

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  131. Guys anyone who is a true Liverpool fan, should stop using this manca site!
    This page wasn't set up for us it for all non-LFC fans to have a go at us...
    Go to his link on facebook and see how he likes the comments againt our team + manager...
    He deletes most comments on here anyway as you must have come to have found

    I don't like our goverment but when we go to war we all stick together!!!

    He has done nothing to prove he is a Liverpool fan and I'm sure if you asked him to name our first 11 he would need a computer and scanner to answer...

    He is no Liverpool fan!!

    Continue using this site at your own discretion...
    I say leave it to all him and his anti-Liverpool brigade!

    Jamie kanwar or whatever your real name is...

    Your a pathetic sad excuse of a fan.. Whoever you really support.
    The only thing I see you really do support is this site and it's hits...
    No more mate!

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  132. Guys anyone who is a true Liverpool fan, should stop using this manca site!
    This page wasn't set up for us it for all non-LFC fans to have a go at us...
    Go to his link on facebook and see how he likes the comments againt our team + manager...
    He deletes most comments on here anyway as you must have come to have found

    I don't like our goverment but when we go to war we all stick together!!!

    He has done nothing to prove he is a Liverpool fan and I'm sure if you asked him to name our first 11 he would need a computer and scanner to answer...

    He is no Liverpool fan!!

    Continue using this site at your own discretion...
    I say leave it to all him and his anti-Liverpool brigade!

    Jamie kanwar or whatever your real name is...

    Your a pathetic sad excuse of a fan.. Whoever you really support.
    The only thing I see you really do support is this site and it's hits...
    No more mate!

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  133. Guys anyone who is a true Liverpool fan, should stop using this manca site!
    This page wasn't set up for us it for all non-LFC fans to have a go at us...
    Go to his link on facebook and see how he likes the comments againt our team + manager...
    He deletes most comments on here anyway as you must have come to have found

    I don't like our goverment but when we go to war we all stick together!!!

    He has done nothing to prove he is a Liverpool fan and I'm sure if you asked him to name our first 11 he would need a computer and scanner to answer...

    He is no Liverpool fan!!

    Continue using this site at your own discretion...
    I say leave it to all him and his anti-Liverpool brigade!

    Jamie kanwar or whatever your real name is...

    Your a pathetic sad excuse of a fan.. Whoever you really support.
    The only thing I see you really do support is this site and it's hits...
    No more mate!

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  134. <span>Jaimie: Thank you for scientific and well researched article. The statistic shows a positive thing except that this year Liverpool got the worst position under Rafa. Let's hope he Rafa will bring some trophies soon and cut some bad lags like Riera and players who are not committed and keep on talking about moving to anther clubs. </span>

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  135. Thanks for your reply Jamie. However, I wasn't raising issue with people being labelled 'pro Benitez', I was raising issue with the accompanying slurs:

    "This is typical of the delusion shown by the pro-Rafa brigade"
    "Typical IRWT opinion - totally incapable of understanding basic facts"

    etc.

    PS: I'm paraphrasing, but hope that cleared up my point.

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  136.  While the first two tables are good and show a clear comparison between the two managers, the third table is misleading and has no place being in this article.  Only accounting for inflation is grossly inaccurate and only highlights how TV money has drastically changed the game of football - something not relevant to the comparison.

    I see two ways to correct this.  The easy way is to just remove the third table from the article.  

    The more complicated way is to look at the spending again in detail and compare the cost of each player with the most expensive signing from that year.  Divide the cost of the player by the cost of the most expensive player to get a decimal (where 1 means the player is the most expensive of the year, 0.5 would mean the player cost half of the most expensive signing).  

    You would then multiply these ratios by the cost of this years most expensive signing to get equivalent costs per player from any year.

    This would give a definitive picture of costs of players and would be a more valid comparison.

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  137. The only thing this tells me, is that Jaimie Kanwar probably is a Ferguson/ManUtd-supporter in denial, but slowly working his way into the daylight..

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  138. Does Rafa get involved in signing the youth team and scouting for the academy?

    The quality of (or lack of) reserve players and youth squad to be promoted to 1st team action such as the likes of Maca, Robbie, Owen, Stevie, et al isn't there.. not to the same standard as perhaps Red Conk had when he basically took a near full team of quality UK youth players and started the growth of Manc Scumnited as a dominant force in English football.

    I admit the team of the 80's & 90's at Scumchester was full of quality players, Beckham, Scholes, the ugly twins, Giggsy, Keane.

    You actually look at the team that turned the fortunes for MU in the 90's and it could be put down to 2 main men... Eric & Peter?
    They suffured when Cantona was banned.

    Yes 1 man does not make a team, but he can make a huge difference.

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  139. Well written! Rafa seems to be little better in this comparasion, but I belive Liverpool was in better plays when Rafa came than Man.Utd was when Ferguson toke over.

    What is worrying us is that United was going up and winnig more things as the time pased, unlike Liverpool that seems to becoming less and less important factor in Premier League

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  140. Jamie Alex Ferguson never won the biggest trophy in world club football in his first year, notably the European cup. I think it took him 13 years? Rafa won it in his first year and took us to the final again in his second year, generating massive financial benefits for the club, which Ferguson never did.

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  141. Jamie a change at the top is not Benitez, Its HICKS and GILLETT

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  142. so who do you want in place of rafa then jamie?

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  143. http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/12/lfc-need-motivator-and-martino-neill-is.html

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  144. <span>sad how many typically fickle liverpool fans there are out there. what a bunch of spoilt brats! have they forgotten 2008/2009 seasons 5 wins out of six against the other top three teams and the 4 goal demolition of real we looked better by far than any liverpool team in the last 20 years... end of. no doubt the two faced gob shites were all singing his name then. where you singing rafa's name at the end of the 2009/2010 season jamie?

    <span>Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-alex-ferguson.html?#ixzz0p4M4BSs9</span></span>

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  145. I'm sure those comments were in response to a delusional member of the Pro-Rafa Brigade, and thus justified (IMO).

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  146. It works both ways - We need new owners and a new manager.  I'd rather see Benitez go first though.

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  147. what do you think of this new fella brukner they have put in place jamie? i think that a pretty smart move myself! and what about the youth team coaches sugura and borrel the guys who brought through the likes of messi and fabregas? seem like a great coup to me? would you move them on to?

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  148. Er, no - I was not singing Benitez's name at the end of the 2008-9 season.  It was only 3 months of good stuff; the rest of the season was punctuated by the usual Benitez mistakes.  I wanted him out at the end of that season just like I do now.  A few months of great football does mean Benitez is suddenly the greatest manager that ever lived.  That period was the exception of his reign, not the rule. 

    Long term, Benitez is not going to win the title with Liverpool; I can see that. I saw that from the beginning.  I argued it from the beginning. In 2002 when liverpool finished 2nd under Houllier, I argued that we would finish outside the top 4 the next season.  I was shouted down obviously, but I ended up being right.  It's better to take a long term view of things: when you're focused on seeing the patterns and observing/analysing what's actually happening, it's easy to see the potential direction things will go.

    There's no point keeping Benitez any longer.  he's taken the club as far he can.  The longer he stays at the helm, the more LFC's football progress is stunted.  We need a new manager, we need him in place before next season.

    If Benitez is still here next season, it will be the same sh*t once again.  There will be no new dawn; no title challenge. Same mistakes; same dodgy formations/subs; same alienation of players; same maddeningly defensive philosophy; same reliance on average players; same crap transfers etc etc.

    Benitez is through at Liverpool.  it's just a matter of time.

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  149. no chance jamie... they couldn't afford to get rid if they wanted to. so what makes you think martin o neil would move when he's currently managing for a billionaire?

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  150. I've answered that question a hundred times; I'm not wasting my time again.  The answer is obvious if you think about it clearly, and set aside your bias.

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  151. what the question about the acquisitions of brukner, segura and borrel?

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  152. The_Positive_One5:17 am, May 27, 2010

    Hey JK, I noticed your doing what I suggested... Cool...

    I also think you should compare the players sold as well, as well as the money actually given to the managers to buy players...

    It would be interesting to see how much money was generated through player sales vs being handed the cash to splash...

    Give me the credit for the idea tho... :-P

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  153. Scott, U're exactly correct ! a relegation threaten MU employed an average manager from up north back then. If MU was in a better position, Fergie will never make the list :)

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  154. So H+G have pumped roughly £25m into Liverpools transfer budget since they took over, everything else has come from the sale of players.  No wonder we've got no decent 2nd string players and barely a good first 11.  If the Liverpool manager (be it Benitez or not) was given £30m + what they get from the sale of players for just 1 season we'd see a great improvement of the team, you can't build a squad if you have to sell 2 or 3 players just to bring in one half decent one.

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  155. *shoots self*

    Yet another brainwashed person clinging onto the net spend argument.  Tell me: did Torres, Mascherano, Keane, Johnson, Aquilani, Dossena, Riera at al cost just 25m?  Wow - we got all of those players for about 3m each.  Amazingly cheap!

    Plus, you are again making the unprovable assumption that 'everythig has come from player sales'.  Prove it.  Tell me who we supposedly had to sell to fund certain players.

    Who did we sell to sign Torres?  Mascherano?  Keane? It's just so maddeningly inaccurate that I actually pity people like you who such ingrained, inflexible tunel vision over this issue.

    And is that seems rude, I'm past caring.  I'm sick of the pro-Benitez cult and their persistent inability to see sense, and their neverending mission to spread misinformation wherever they go.

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  156. *shoots self*  
     
    Yet another person clinging onto the lame net spend argument.  Tell me: did Torres, Mascherano, Keane, Johnson, Aquilani, Dossena, Riera at al cost just 25m?  Wow - we got all of those players for about 3m each.  Amazingly cheap!  
     
    Plus, you are again making the unprovable assumption that 'everythig has come from player sales'.  Prove it.  Tell me who we supposedly had to sell to fund certain players.  
     
    Who did we sell to sign Torres?  Mascherano?  Keane? It's just so maddeningly inaccurate that I actually pity people like you who such ingrained, inflexible tunel vision over this issue.  
     
    And is that seems rude, I'm past caring.  I'm sick of the pro-Benitez cult and their persistent inability to see sense, and their neverending mission to spread misinformation/falsehood wherever they go.

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  157. I'm not part of the 'pro-Benitez cult' far from it.
    I didn't say £25m was ALL that Benitez had spent, i simply stated that there was £25m that came from sources other than the recoupped money.  The money whether it be that season or another is put back into the tranfer fund in one way or another.  I'm not saying Benitez hasn't had a lot of money to spend i'm saying that H+G haven't funded the transfers as much as they could more investment from them would make building a team much easier.
    The net spend would then be higher and the money recoupped would then be less but we'd have more of a chance of our 2nd string players being decent.
    You've provided proof that Liverpool have sold players yourself with the stats showing the money recoupped. Amongst these are;
    Pongolle, O'Donnell, Garcia, Cisse, Bellamy, Gonzales, Palletta, Kirkland, Sissoko, Riise, Le Tallec, Crouch, Guthrie, Carson, Finnan, Keane, Hobbs, Anderson, Leto, Arbeloa, Alonso.
    Inflexible? - pot calling the kettle black there, you argue with people who have even the slightest variation on your own opinions

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  158. some of those players should have been kept, of course. However with little money coming from the owners and fans desperate to see the team evolve and develop sacrifices have to be made.
    It's all well and good fans saying 'we could sell player A for £10m and then buy player B for £15m meaning we'd only have to spend an additional £5m to fund the transfer' but that all depends on if we could get £10 for player A.
    As a current player for your team the valuation of players leaving the club will be naturally higher than the valuation of the team wanting to buy the player (especially since they'll be wanting to spend as little as possible) and what seems like a fair £10m could seem extortionate to the team wanting to buy them who may be only willing to go as high as £6m therefore meaning an additional £9 will now be needed to fund the transfer of player B assuming that their current team don't value them at £20m rather than £15 which would then mean we'd need £14m from somewhere other than the sale of player A.

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  159. Hull were 4th in october 2008 lest we forget. They stayed up on the last day. Being 4th in November means nothing. Any team can have a good start. Uniteds team was shockin in '86. Rafa inherited a champions league winning team. Stupid comment you made friedk!

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  160. you need to reflect the back ground history of both club at relevant time of the figures on here. And also the facts, yes the fact, about how many trophies SAF won afterwards, and Rafa's failing to do so after inherited Team from GH which brought 5th UEFA Cup to Anfield. Anyhow, you will never achieve your aim to dim the SAF success and won't do any good either on RAFA image by comparing with SAF.  ;)  There is only lose-lose situation here for you..   

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  161. Jaimie Kanwar your Liverpool-kop website is a joke.

    I posted 2 non offensive, post on here yesterday, you dilerbratly didn't put them on.

    They weren't offensive, they were to do with season tickets price increase.

    I made an observation, you didn't like it so you censored it.

    That's just not on.

    You will probably not post this one too.

    Well 'am just gonna keep copying and pasting it every 10 mins or so.

    At least some people WILL get to see it !

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  162. Well im sure several members of this forum are certainly 
    eating their words...benitez left, we get hodgson!!!!¬ What a fantastic move and id like to personally thank all these so called liverpool fans for wishing for this change and welcoming a 60+ year old midtable manager with absolutely zero to show on his CV...to then get sacked after breaking records at liverpool after just 6 months, and not good records, to then desperately hire kenny daglish in the pathetic hope that the 80's will be relived. So we finished 6th last year and now are probably the worst out a top 6 side with an aim to get 4th which is something we were used to under a certain pervious manager...As lampard said recently, the moment Chelsea lower their targets and say we will aim for 4th is when the players and club need to look at themselves...Well done all of you!!! Boy did you guys prove me wrong!!!

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  163. May i also add that id like to thank all you so called reds fans for the demise of our club now that you thought the manager was the sole problem of them club and appluade the fantastic players we have gone from...to the complete and utter rubbish overpriced british morons we now have representing us!!! What fantastic progress

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