According to my (deluded) detractors, I am any or all of the following: Rampantly pro-H+G; A ‘Yank stooge’; On H+G’s payroll; an employee of one of H+G’s public relations firms, etc. Highly amusing (predictable) accusations, spread by my detractors as a way to try and discredit me. Of course, none of those are even remotely close to being true, and I will illustrate why below.
Quite simply, if I was somehow linked to H+G – especially in a public relations sense – would I have posted the following articles:
Shut up, Hicks. You're making a mockery of everything LFC stands for
Liverpool hit by the Texas Hicks-Saw Massacre
Hicks raps Rafa in unprofessional public outburst
Here is a selection of quotes from the above three articles:
“In yet another childish display of one-upmanship, Tom Hicks has dragged his rift with Rafael Benitez back into the public domain”
--
“Such behaviour is petulant, unprofessional and destabilising in the worst possible way”.
--
“Before Hicks arrived in a blaze of glory, the club had gone 115 years without the ignominy of internal strife being splashed across the media”
--
“In just ten months associated with the club, Hicks has destroyed this long-standing harmony with key involvement in a very public spat”.
--
“Tom Hicks is not fit to run Liverpool FC. He is not deserving of the honour and privilege of owning the club and he is woefully bereft of the personal qualities needed to be an effective leader and ambassador”.
--
“Hicks would do well to take a look at Mr Smith’s conduct during his tenure as Chairman and try and learn something about grace, professionalism and humility - concepts of which he clearly has has no understanding”.
--
“Consummate clowns Tom Hicks and George Gillette are turning Liverpool FC into the footballing equivalent a three-ring circus, and Hicks’ latest ill-advised public comments are yet more evidence that this particular Texas Cowboy has no idea what being the owner of Liverpool FC means”
--
“Hicks has taken a Chainsaw to Liverpool’s exemplary media practices and turned the club into a laughing stock”.
--
“Come back, DIC! Buy-out these clowns and give Rick Parry his marching orders whilst you’re at it, so we can all quote John McClane and shout 'Yippee-kai-ay...You know the rest”.
--
“Hicks' response shows a dispiriting lack of class and tact. There is NO EXCUSE for making critical public comments”.
--
“Public attacks of this nature are not the Liverpool way, and choosing to ‘deal’ with the situation this was hugely amateur mistake on Hicks’ part”.
--
It's obvious, isn't it?! I’m clearly on H+G’s payroll, as these highly complimentary comments/articles prove (!). The truth is, I have been harsher on H+G than *anyone else* connected with LFC, including Rafa Benitez. I even engaged in the cardinal sin of name-calling, which is something of which I am not proud.
Calling me pro H+G is simplistic in the extreme. I am not. I have acknowledged their bad points *many* times (there are other articles on the site that criticize them as well as the three above); the difference between me and many other fans is that I will also acknowledge the good things they have done. That doesn’t make me pro H+G; it makes me balanced. And whether fans like it or not, good things *have* happened during H+G's reign.
The same goes for Rafa Benitez – I could post a dozen articles where I’ve defended him/said complimentary things about him. I also highlight the negative aspects of his managerial reign.
Football is not black and white; I treat everyone the same. I have no personal bias; I just tell it like I see it. Even now, if something happens that I feel is unfair towards Benitez, I will highlight it. Two good recent examples of this are below:
Bravo! Why Rafa Benitez should be applauded
Rafa Benitez vs. the pathetic bureaucrats at the FA. I know who I’m backing
Anyway, back to H+G: My recent articles about LFC finances have *nothing* to do with defending H+G – I am defending the club, and how its finances are misrepresented in the media.
The idea that I’m somehow on the Owners' payroll is utterly cretinous, as the above articles/quotes prove.
Jaimie Kanwar
Quite simply, if I was somehow linked to H+G – especially in a public relations sense – would I have posted the following articles:
Shut up, Hicks. You're making a mockery of everything LFC stands for
Liverpool hit by the Texas Hicks-Saw Massacre
Hicks raps Rafa in unprofessional public outburst
Here is a selection of quotes from the above three articles:
“In yet another childish display of one-upmanship, Tom Hicks has dragged his rift with Rafael Benitez back into the public domain”
--
“Such behaviour is petulant, unprofessional and destabilising in the worst possible way”.
--
“Before Hicks arrived in a blaze of glory, the club had gone 115 years without the ignominy of internal strife being splashed across the media”
--
“In just ten months associated with the club, Hicks has destroyed this long-standing harmony with key involvement in a very public spat”.
--
“Tom Hicks is not fit to run Liverpool FC. He is not deserving of the honour and privilege of owning the club and he is woefully bereft of the personal qualities needed to be an effective leader and ambassador”.
--
“Hicks would do well to take a look at Mr Smith’s conduct during his tenure as Chairman and try and learn something about grace, professionalism and humility - concepts of which he clearly has has no understanding”.
--
“Consummate clowns Tom Hicks and George Gillette are turning Liverpool FC into the footballing equivalent a three-ring circus, and Hicks’ latest ill-advised public comments are yet more evidence that this particular Texas Cowboy has no idea what being the owner of Liverpool FC means”
--
“Hicks has taken a Chainsaw to Liverpool’s exemplary media practices and turned the club into a laughing stock”.
--
“Come back, DIC! Buy-out these clowns and give Rick Parry his marching orders whilst you’re at it, so we can all quote John McClane and shout 'Yippee-kai-ay...You know the rest”.
--
“Hicks' response shows a dispiriting lack of class and tact. There is NO EXCUSE for making critical public comments”.
--
“Public attacks of this nature are not the Liverpool way, and choosing to ‘deal’ with the situation this was hugely amateur mistake on Hicks’ part”.
--
It's obvious, isn't it?! I’m clearly on H+G’s payroll, as these highly complimentary comments/articles prove (!). The truth is, I have been harsher on H+G than *anyone else* connected with LFC, including Rafa Benitez. I even engaged in the cardinal sin of name-calling, which is something of which I am not proud.
Calling me pro H+G is simplistic in the extreme. I am not. I have acknowledged their bad points *many* times (there are other articles on the site that criticize them as well as the three above); the difference between me and many other fans is that I will also acknowledge the good things they have done. That doesn’t make me pro H+G; it makes me balanced. And whether fans like it or not, good things *have* happened during H+G's reign.
The same goes for Rafa Benitez – I could post a dozen articles where I’ve defended him/said complimentary things about him. I also highlight the negative aspects of his managerial reign.
Football is not black and white; I treat everyone the same. I have no personal bias; I just tell it like I see it. Even now, if something happens that I feel is unfair towards Benitez, I will highlight it. Two good recent examples of this are below:
Bravo! Why Rafa Benitez should be applauded
Rafa Benitez vs. the pathetic bureaucrats at the FA. I know who I’m backing
Anyway, back to H+G: My recent articles about LFC finances have *nothing* to do with defending H+G – I am defending the club, and how its finances are misrepresented in the media.
The idea that I’m somehow on the Owners' payroll is utterly cretinous, as the above articles/quotes prove.
Jaimie Kanwar
That's just what a H+G employee would say...
ReplyDeleteYour a Yank!
ReplyDeleteWhen you see Tom & George for De-briefing tell them "P**S OFF! NOT WELCOME IN LIVERPOOL!" from me.
A lesser person might get paranoid well done
ReplyDeleteYet you still hate Rafa and want Martin O Neill in his place?
ReplyDeleteNot interested in O'Neill myself. His supposedly good Villa team performed REALLY badly in europe for two seasons. If and I say if, as looks increasingly unlikely now, Rafa goes, I'd want someone with a higher calibre than O'Neill.
ReplyDeleteme, me, me, look at me. You should change the name of this site to the <span><span>"Jaimie Kanwar show"... yawn</span></span>
ReplyDeleteWith respect, could you be any more simplistic with your interpretation?
ReplyDeleteI do NOT hate RB. Hate implies a personal issue, which is not true at all. I have a problem with his managerial effectiveness - that's it. And yes, I want to see a new manager at Anfield. That doesn't mean I 'hate' RB.
So - you don't think the quality of player Aston Villa can attract makes any difference to how they perform in Europe? Given Villa's stature, they are only ever going to attract b and c grade players; they cannot attract the likes of Torres as Villa is perceived as a mid-table/small team.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about Villa's lack of Euro experience; you don't think that makes a difference?! After Liverpool were banned from Europe in the 80s, how did we do when we were thrust back into European competition. We were atrocious. It took 11 years before actually began performing well in Europe again. Villa haven't been in Europe for years; they will need time to adapt and get up to speed.
why don't all these thickle fans that don't like Rafa go support one of the other thickle clubs, i wanna see stats on the managers since Dalglish we have had ... Wenger hasn't won anything in 5 - 6 years does that make him a bad manager???
ReplyDeleteRafa won the Champs Lge then returned to be in the final, to prove it was not fluke. Everyone has bad seasons and things not quite right. We had a blip get over it. The same squad was touted to win the league not 10 months ago by all the supposed experts. One bad season and his head must fly ... pleeeease
As always you are spot on. What is it with the truth that makes it so hard to accept? I guess it makes things complicated. Simple people likes it simple.
ReplyDelete"Managerial effectiveness"? I bet you didn't have a problem the season before last when we were fighting for the title?
ReplyDeleteRiddle me this then ballbag - IF Rafa was to be sacked/he quits; who is available that is BETTER and more importantly would be willing to take over at LFC when the club is clearly on its arse. They would want to bring in their own players; money the club doesnt have. Why not just give that money to Benitez?
You must think we were born yesterday. Ofcourse your going to show a few (and I mean a few) articles showing your displeasure at the Yanks. Its just a ruse to delude your readers. Public relations and advertising use a simple principle and that is to bombard the audience again and again the idea that the promoter is trying to peddle. How many articles have you written that are against the owners and how many have you written that are against Rafa or pro-H+K? I think around 1-10 respectively is probably right. Please don't use this simple argument that you put in this article to divert attention from the absolutely biased aganda that you have had.
ReplyDeleteYes please lets get O'neill. He has failed to make even the quarters of the Mickey mouse cup even after a few attempts. Lets get rid of Rafa seen as he only managed to WIN the Champions League and go to the finals again. Also only managed to get to the semis of the CL and quarters. We also need to replace Rafa because he only managed to get Liverpool to be ranked No 1 in Europe by UEFA. We need O'Neill by any means necessary seen as he has failed to come 4th even after spending heavily while Rafa has managed to get us into the CL every year bar one with financial constraints. PLease, please, please. We must have him and have him now.
ReplyDeleteTomy - drop the personal insults or I'll just delete your comments in future (i've edited it out).
ReplyDeleteYour comment is indicative of the ingrained inflexibility of Liverpool fans these days.
LFC is a prestige job; one of the top 5-10 desirable football jobs on the planet. Irrespective of the finances, there will be a queue of top managers lining up for the opportunity. or do you deny that LFC is a sought-after job?
There are plenty of managers in world football capable of coming in and doing a great job for LFC, or are you suggesting that no one could come in and take us higher than 7th?
Why do you assume that managers will be 'unwilling' to come to LFC at the moment. What is your reasoning/evidence for that?
Whether the next manager is 'better' than Benitez is totally subjective - are you suggesting that the only manager capable of managing Liverpool effectively is Benitez?! It is this ingrained type of opinion that defines those who are blinbdly in favour of Benitez.
And as anyone who frequents this site will tell you, at the end of last season I *also* wanted a change of manager. I argued that we would struggle to finish in the top 4 this season, and I was right.
I didn't want Benitez from day 1, and I wrote an article before he was appointed stating that. I am not fickle with my opinions; I have been consistent for years.
Why don't you try and apperciate this point: last season's 2nd place finish is the EXCEPTION of Benitez's reign, not the rule. It's the only season out of 6 that we've put in a title challenge, yet you and others try and argue that that season is somehow indicative of Benitez's reign!
IT is not.
2 of the 6 league seasons he's been in charge have been utterly atrocious (2004-5 and 2009-10); Apart from the 2nd place finish, the other three have been middling seasons lacking a title push.
You are taking a very narrow, short-term view. I take a long-term view, and look at things over 6 years, not just one year.
God, this post is so full of embarrasing generalisation and blatant inaccuracy that i can't even be bothered to expend the energy to respond. You're clearly beyond help.
ReplyDelete"I didn't want Benitez from day 1, and I wrote an article before he was appointed stating that. I am not fickle with my opinions; I have been consistent for years."
ReplyDeleteIn your own words you've just said quite clearly what many have been trying to tell you and that you've consistently denied: you're biased against Rafa Benitez for your own reasons and it is this bias that is that the root of much of your writing.
"Your comment is indicative of the ingrained inflexibility of Liverpool fans these days."
Inflexibility like writing off a manager on day one? Even a manager that had just won the second of two La Liga titles from under the noses of Barcelona and Real Madrid and the UEFA Cup, too?
I'm sorry, but if someone else was that hypocritical then you would be the first to point it out and chastise them for it.
"Why don't you try and apperciate this point: last season's 2nd place finish is the EXCEPTION of Benitez's reign, not the rule. It's the only season out of 6 that we've put in a title challenge, yet you and others try and argue that that season is somehow indicative of Benitez's reign!"
So with the squad that he inherited and with limited resources you expected Benitez to have Liverpool challenging for the title right away? I can't possibly see how that was realistic, regardless of who was the manager.
Remember, Roman Abramovich spent hundreds of millions of pounds and still it didn't buy instant success at Chelsea. And seven years on (and a few hundred million later) they still haven't won him him the Champions League title that he so badly covets.
Average points scored by Liverpool in the last six seasons vs the previous six seasons: 433 vs 394.
An improvement, even considering the two years that the team coasted through the final games because it was focused on upcoming Champions League finals, and the annus horribilis that was this last season.
By the way, Chelsea in that time: 523 vs 395. Amazing what a difference having the best part of billion to spend on players and salaries and never having to worry about money will make, eh?
"2 of the 6 league seasons he's been in charge have been utterly atrocious (2004-5 and 2009-10); Apart from the 2nd place finish, the other three have been middling seasons lacking a title push."
As I said previously, to have expected a title challenge in that first season was unrealistic - yet it did end with victory in the Champions League final.
The last season, granted, was a nightmare, but it can't have escaped your notice that almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong, even before the season started, and to blame it all on the manager would be ridiculous.
Many experts expected us to win the title: when was the last time that so many people had said that about Liverpool? Didn't that say something about how far Liverpool had travelled?
Of course, the reality didn't match those expectations, but if this team was good enough to be held in such high esteem by so many people who know the game far better than you or I ever will then it seems reasonable to believe that it was this season was the abberation and not the one before it.
"You are taking a very narrow, short-term view. I take a long-term view, and look at things over 6 years, not just one year."
The funny thing is, to me, and to many others, I'm sure, it seems you do the exact opposite. Writing off a manager before he's even played a game is, by definition, a narrow-minded act. Crucifying him for all the things that went wrong in the last twelve months is another.
As bad as this season was if we had won vs Spurs on the opening day of the season (at least one stonewall penalty denied, less than the minimum announced injury time played), and that beachball goal had not been given then we would have [...]
"I didn't want Benitez from day 1, and I wrote an article before he was appointed stating that. I am not fickle with my opinions; I have been consistent for years."
ReplyDeleteIn your own words you've just said quite clearly what many have been trying to tell you and that you've consistently denied: you're biased against Rafa Benitez for your own reasons and it is this bias that is at the root of much of your writing.
"Your comment is indicative of the ingrained inflexibility of Liverpool fans these days."
Inflexibility like writing off a manager on day one? Even a manager that had just won the second of two La Liga titles from under the noses of Barcelona and Real Madrid and the UEFA Cup, too?
I'm sorry, but if someone else was that hypocritical then you would be the first to point it out and chastise them for it.
"Why don't you try and apperciate this point: last season's 2nd place finish is the EXCEPTION of Benitez's reign, not the rule. It's the only season out of 6 that we've put in a title challenge, yet you and others try and argue that that season is somehow indicative of Benitez's reign!"
So with the squad that he inherited and with limited resources you expected Benitez to have Liverpool challenging for the title right away? I can't possibly see how that was realistic, regardless of who was the manager.
Remember, Roman Abramovich spent hundreds of millions of pounds and still it didn't buy instant success at Chelsea. And seven years on (and a few hundred million later) they still haven't won him him the Champions League title that he so badly covets.
Average points scored by Liverpool in the last six seasons vs the previous six seasons: 433 vs 394.
An improvement, even considering the two years that the team coasted through the final games because it was focused on upcoming Champions League finals, and the annus horribilis that was this last season.
By the way, Chelsea in that time: 523 vs 395. Amazing what a difference having the best part of billion to spend on players and salaries and never having to worry about money will make, eh?
"2 of the 6 league seasons he's been in charge have been utterly atrocious (2004-5 and 2009-10); Apart from the 2nd place finish, the other three have been middling seasons lacking a title push."
As I said previously, to have expected a title challenge in that first season was unrealistic - yet it did end with victory in the Champions League final.
The last season, granted, was a nightmare, but it can't have escaped your notice that almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong, even before the season started, and to blame it all on the manager would be ridiculous.
Many experts expected us to win the title: when was the last time that so many people had said that about Liverpool? Didn't that say something about how far Liverpool had travelled?
Of course, the reality didn't match those expectations, but if this team was good enough to be held in such high esteem by so many people who know the game far better than you or I ever will then it seems reasonable to believe that it was this season was the abberation and not the one before it.
"You are taking a very narrow, short-term view. I take a long-term view, and look at things over 6 years, not just one year."
The funny thing is, to me, and to many others, I'm sure, it seems you do the exact opposite. Writing off a manager before he's even played a game is, by definition, a narrow-minded act. Crucifying him for all the things that went wrong in the last twelve months is another.
As bad as this season was if we had won vs Spurs on the opening day of the season (at least one stonewall penalty denied, less than the minimum announced injury time played), and that beachball goal had not been given then we would have been [...]
Who do you feel would be realistic managerial targets to replace Benitez and improve the situation at LFC?
ReplyDeleteI see nothing is wrong in being rational. It's highly amusing to find certain section of liverpudlians sharing the extreme mindsets. Come on, even mummies have their shortcomings. this is a behaviour of ladies in the markets, ostracizing people for the sake of it.
ReplyDeletei am neither pro nor anti rafa. i give credits where its due. rafa definitely did well in winning the CL by producing some tactical geniuses. however, he won it with Houllier's team of players. and notice how the club slumb into mediocrity as he inches every step closer to his 'own team'?
A great tactician, normal on the transfer fronts, poor in management, dire as a motivator.
ps: editor, i believe it's more appropriate to label yourself a liverpool fan with neutral views on the club's management
Boss post^ (Harry P)
ReplyDeleteIf it is such a prestige job; whichever coach would know they were approached because of their record/pedigree, and as you said, LFC is one of the biggest clubs on the planet; if they are good enough for Liverpool they are good enough for Barca, Real et al. If you were a top manager; why would you go to a club that was on its arse in debt; had players that aren't good enough, and there's sod all money to spend?
ReplyDeleteEvery manager brings in their own players and the majority of the time; staff; and if they haven't got that money to spend to bring in their own players; why would they come?
To say I'm taking a short term view is balls; Liverpool as a club have progressed under Benitez. Our UEFA ranking improved; our points average improved, the squad value has improved drastically, the club's marketability overseas has increased.
Don't get me wrong; I've bitched about Benitez's subs/transfers etc at times; but who hasn't? It's plain to see the club has gone forward under Benitez, and to bring someone else in would be a step back.
Players have to get used to new training methods, different ways of attacking/defending, set pieces, fitness regimes etc under new managers; so to bring in someone new would only delay our progression.
If Rafa has money to spend; there's no way we are going to do worse than this season. Theres a possibility he will get a signing wrong (e.g. Keane, Aquilani) but at the same time look at the players who he has brought in who have had a positive impact:
Reina,
Agger
Arbeloa
Sissoko
Mascherano
Alonso
Kuyt - For those who say he is shite; just look at the teams he has scored against.
Luis Garcia
Benayoun
Torres
Crouch
Maxi - maybe a bit too early to judge; but for a free transfer he has been decent.
At the same time; there has been players who for whatever reason haven't made it:
Bellamy
Morientes
Josemi
Kromkamp
Voronin
Nunez.
Every manager is going to get signings wrong; but you can't say we are going nowhere under Rafa.
You know yourself there's people who love him, and people who hate him and want him out, not everyone's going to agree; so we just have to get on with it; and while he's in charge of the side he gets my backing and should get everyone elses.
Martin O'neils sides have always bored the hell out of me, they have no flair whatsoever mainly because he refuses to buy players of technincal ability in favour of buying good solid British players. (anyone saying Ashley Young is a flair player is out of their flippin mind! he's the most overated player out in British football today. Cappello apparently agrees with me.) I'd take Rafa over O'neil every time, but I'd take Rijkaard over Rafa :-D
ReplyDeleteJamie I have to raise issue with the constant vitriol you are spewing in the direction of people you brand as the 'pro-Rafa' brigade, or whichever twisted wordplay around the term 'delusion' you choose to label people with in various articles.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most common of these is: "See, this is typical of xxx attitude of xxx fans these days". Instant dismissal of any points raised by the poster while at the same time insulting anyone else that might agree.
It's not on mate, especially as you are so strict about personal insults and the like.
I am 'pro Rafa', in that I think he deserves another season. But I am most certainly not deluded, I am most certainly not incapable of understanding basic facts, I am most certainly not led by the media, or the forums, or whoever else you are suggesting is making up nonsense facts and figures about our club and to be honest have begun to take offense as such.
I have two degrees (including a first class degree in psychology) and am an accredited (and published) writer and author, just to give you an insight into the fact that I am more than likely intelligent and rational enough to come to conclusions without succumbing to outside influence or sensationalism.
No doubt many other people who diagree with your views are smart, rational people who are worthy of respect as well, so don't you think it's about time you dropped the generalisations and insults?
Some of your recent articles are interesting, but by the time I've made my way through the comments I've usually forgotten whatever insight I may have wanted to contribute as you've got my back up with your inflammatory remarks by then.
I wonder if many others feels the same.
Jaimie, I really admire the time and effort you put into all of this. Unfortunately I don't think that you will convince the rather narrow minded majority of fellow Reds for whom supporting the club actually is black and white, and that is where you got it wrong in you article. When I was younger it was black and white for me, too. As we grow older, and we are about the same age, we develop the ability to see things from a different point of view, well, not all of us. Maybe it is a question of 'having a life' outside football. I once read a psychological book which described problems like that. The translation of the title would be 'Interpersonal and institutional defence'. Anyway, it may well be quite threatening to some people if you 'attack' everything that their life is about, hence the abuse you receive. If they wouldn't do it their entire 'world' would collapse.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I don't think you will change very many people's view, but I like reading your stuff, because it really is different to what the 'brought into line' media offer. While your fight for 'truth' surely is honourable, well, Erasmus of Rotterdam has found the right words already when he said "Man's mind is so formed that it is far more susceptible to falsehood than to truth."
Jamie I have to raise issue with the constant vitriol you are spewing in the direction of people you brand as the 'pro-Rafa' brigade, or whichever twisted wordplay around the term 'delusion' you choose to label people with in various articles.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most common of these is: "See, this is typical of xxx attitude of xxx fans these days". Instant dismissal of any points raised by the poster while at the same time insulting anyone else that might agree.
It's not on mate, especially as you are so strict about personal insults and the like.
I am 'pro Rafa', in that I think he deserves another season. But I am most certainly not deluded, I am most certainly not incapable of understanding basic facts, I am most certainly not led by the media, or the forums, or whoever else you are suggesting is making up nonsense facts and figures about our club and to be honest have begun to take offense as such.
I have two degrees (including a first class degree in psychology) and am an accredited (and published) writer and author, just to give you an insight into the fact that I am more than likely intelligent and rational enough to come to conclusions without succumbing to outside influence or sensationalism.
No doubt many other people who diagree with your views are smart, rational people who are worthy of respect as well, so don't you think it's about time you dropped the generalisations and insults?
Some of your recent articles are interesting, but by the time I've made my way through the comments I've usually forgotten whatever insight I may have wanted to contribute as you've got my back up with your inflammatory remarks by then.
I wonder if others feel the same?
I take on board your comments JW, but if that were the case it makes a mockery of Villa's attempts at trying to get in the CL - what would be the point?
ReplyDeleteI'd also raise the point that two seasons back, O'Neill basically threw the chance to progress in the europa league to try and get in the top 4. What is the point in doing that if Villa have no experience. Likewise this season, he arguably threw in the towel too early in the europa league. Surely, if he wants his team to get european experience, he should be looking for a good run in the europa league.
For me, it would be too big a chance to go back to counter attacking football. So no thanks, Martin.
Not strictly true. Alonso and Garcia both started and it would have been unrealistic to expect Rafa to have changed the whole team by that point. Also Carra had been moulded into a great centre back since Rafa arrived - from a left/right back under Houllier.
ReplyDeleteAnd he did make another CL final with 'his team' and got second last year.
Credit where credit is due eh?
Thanks for your comments, RedJohn.
ReplyDeleteJust a few things:
1. I only label people as part of the Pro-Benitez brigade' if the views espoused constitute what I perceive to be blind faith, and/or an unwillingness to accept that Benitez has flaws. I can accept that Benitez is a good manager; he has qualities, and he has done some great things for LFC. However, I can also see he has flaws. On the opposite side of the coin, some of those that support Benitez see the good stuff, but they steadfastly refuse to accept the bad. Such blind-faith is damaging to the club in my view, which is why I label these people as part of the 'Pro-Benitez brigade'.
The real extremists who believe Benitez is some godlike figure who is incapable of doing anything wrong are even worse - they are the Pro-Benitez Cult; completely without reason, and willing to twist facts, lie and ignore reality to further their goal of deifying him.
There is a third group: Reasonable fans; those who support Benitez but are willing to discuss mistakes he's made, and will accept that he needs to improve on certain things. They still retain their support for the manager but they're not so inflexible of mind that they'll dismiss valid criticism.
Through experience, both in life and online, it's easy to discern who is part of what group. Classifying/labelling things is part of human nature; always has been, always will be. If people can't hack being called 'Pro-Benitez', then that's their problem. I am called 'Anti-Benitez a thousand times a day - I don't take it personally. At this time, I am not in favour of keeping Benitez at the club - this means I am, by extension, anti-Benitez!
Labelling someone as 'Pro-Benitez brigade' is nort derogatory; it is stating a self-evident fact.
1. X supports Benitez
2. Support = 'Pro' something
3. Ergo, X is pro-Benitez.
It is a fact. Quite why people who openly admit to being supporters of Benitez object to being labeled 'Pro-benitez' is a mystery to me.
perhaps it's the use of the word brigade (!) - although that word is not offensive in the slightest.
When faced with points someone from the pro-Benitez brigade, I almost always respond with legitimate arguements; however, sometimes you come across arguments that are so steeped in typical ingrained pro-Benitez generalised cliche that there's simply no point debating the issue. It's just a waste of time as they will never accept that Benitez is to blame for anything. Such people deserve to be dismissed in my view, and that's my right to do that. Why should I waste the time?
And you're right - there are many smart, intelligent people who disagree with my view. This site is full of fans who construct endlessly compelling arguments. You will notice though that I never label them as part of the pro-Benitez brigade for the very reasons I mention above: they are reasonable, and willing to look at both sides of the coin.
Being pro-Benitez is fine; being blinkered and inflexible and consumed by blind faith is not.
With respect, if you the label 'pro-Benitez brigade' inflammatory, I submit it is you who has the problem, not me.
Hi Anteater - I think you're spot-on with your point seeing things from a different point of view. It was mostly black and White for me when I was a younger (I'm 32 now), but things definitely change over time. That quote you included is depressingly true.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest though, my goal is not to change peoples' views. I just feel there needs to be a different perspective out there than the usual media/fansite stuff.
The discussion and debate is what makes this site, not what I write. I just start the discussions off. Reading the views of other fans and engaging in (civilised) debate is the part I enjoy the most.
<span><span>"According to the report, Liverpool’s debts reached over £390 million, with interest payable of £40 million. This is, of course, a consequence of the appalling debts Tom Hicks and George Gillett have saddled the club with through their leveraged buyout. Loans to complete the takeover and further exorbitant interest rates are the major crippling causes, whilst failure to qualify for the Champions League and slipping to seventh this year is thought likely to cost Liverpool over £30 million."</span></span>
ReplyDelete<span><span></span></span>
<span><span>Jamie quote from a "reputable" internet football website.</span></span>
Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteI`ve been reading your posts over the last year, some i`ve found funny, but all have been an enjoyable read and whilst i`ve not always agreed with you you seem to be taking a lot of flack from certain quarters.
Like you i don`t blame H&G for all our woes.
I voiced my opinion of Benitez over three years ago, over zonal marking, playing players out of position and the single style of attack(straight to the middle and run into as many opposition players as we can before we loses the ball !! genius, no one will work that out)
we need new investment and i think Mr Parrys replacement has done a fanastic job but we need new owners and a new manager
<span>Liverpool also saw an increase in turnover, greater than that of Everton, standing at around £185 million; an increase of nearly 13% on the previous year. Moreover, at only 56%, the wage bill as proportion of turnover is also admirable. This would all look quite lovely if only it wasn’t for the great big monstrous looming shadow of debt which is an inescapable point of return. The leveraged buyout has left the previously relatively healthy operating profits of 2007/08 wiped out by interest payments. These are evidently worrying times for Liverpool; the hope has to remain that they can rid themselves of the nightmarish Hicks/Gillett co-ownership and secure a takeover as swiftly and painlessly as possible.</span>
ReplyDeleteAnother quote from a reputable football internet site.
Jamie you need to keep your eye on the ball and get that campaign in full throttle for the removal of the CANCER at our club, namely HICKS + GILLETT.
Get that facebook campaign for HICKS + GILLETTs removal started NOW. The one for Rafas removal is embarrasing, 274 people since May 11th
@Istvan - I don't know what happened to your post but I'll answer it.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I support LFC is linked to the Scottish connection in my family. I feel an affinity with LFC because of the immense Scottish contribution to the club over the years. Liverpool's history is peppered with major contributions from Scottish players/managers, and the life and soul of LFC came from Bill Shankly, a Scot. I'm proud of the Scottish influence on LFC; I'm a huge fan of Shankly and his footballing philosophy, and I believe the principle of that philosphy should be kept alive. Football may move on but the fundamental things that I love so much about LFC (i.e. everything that came from the Shankly revoulution) should not change (i.e. the club is always bigger than the individual; LFC players/manager should conduct themselves in a dignified manner; humble in victory; gracious in defeat; abhor cheating; always be fair on the field; everyone working together toward the same goal; keeping things simple; keep disputes behind closed doors etc) and I refuse to accept (negative) change is inevitable.
I view everything about LFC through the lens of the Shankly philosophy; I judge everyone connected with LFC against the Liverpool standards of old. If you understand these things about me, then you understand where I come from with my articles.
I'm not for one moment suggesting the way I see things is the right way; it's just my way, rightly or wrongly.
I love LFC, but I hate the shallow, superficialities of modern football. Obviously, that creates friction.
Hello Jamie,
ReplyDeletea very interesting article.... I do not agree with it but do respect your opinion.
I just would rather be absolutely sure that benitez is the wrong man for the job before dispensing with him.
And even you have to admit that he has not been given the same carte blanche regarding tranfers that is neccesary to win the league.
The squad has improved in six years... in my opinion and hopefully we will improve on last season's poor next year.
I honestly think that if we had owners who truly wanted our club to move forward then we would not even be talking about the manager's position because he would have already proved how good he is... remember its only since the americans have taken over that our drought has started.
good article though
Winning the CL is not just about winning the final. Houllier's players were integral to getting to the final. For example, without Melloe and Pongolle, we wouldn't have even got past Olympiakos. Gerrard scored the 3rd goal, but without those two, it wouldn't have mattered.
ReplyDeleteWhatever way you look at it, Houllier's players had a massive impact on Liverpool winning the CL. jamie Carragher was a great very good player before Benitez arrived; logic dictates that as players get more experience, they'll get better. Carragher was always going to get Better - his improvement is not down to Benitez. I'd give Sami Hyypia most of the credit for Carra's defensive skill - playing alongside Sami clearly taught him shedloads about the art of defending.
Thanks for your comments. I think you're right about being absolutely sure Benitez is the wrong man before getting rid. I personally feel sure, but I understand and accept why fans want him to remain. There are strong arguments to be made for him to stay; there are also strong arguments for him to go.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you're right that Benitez would've delivered with a different set of owners. I'm not so sure, but it's a possibility.
Jaimie, admittedly I have lost patience with Rafa and more worryingly fear he may have lost the faith of his core dressing room. Under normal circumstances in close season I would certainly be calling for a new manager to replace him. However given the amount of instability at LFC at present I have found myself slightly relieved to hear noises of him staying for the incoming season (whether or not through gritted teeth) do you not feel we need some sort of nucleus to prevent further decay amidst unprecedented times at the club. We have the basis of a top team, with a few additions and a fit Gerard & Torres, the potential to have the team play like 08-09 has got to be there. RB for the short term better of LFC, at least until the ownership debacle is resolved, which realistically may not happen before the summer is out. No ??
ReplyDeleteFrank - I don't care how many 'reputable' websites you quote. The figures have been twisted to make things seem worse than they are, and I have proved that over the last week. If you want to believe it, go ahead, but you're just bringing more unnecessary doom and gloom down on the club.
ReplyDeleteThings are not as bad as the ridiculous media are making out.
<span>To say I'm taking a short term view is balls; Liverpool as a club have progressed under Benitez. Our UEFA ranking improved; our points average improved, the squad value has improved drastically, the club's marketability overseas has increased.
ReplyDelete<span>Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/liverpool-kopcom-and-alleged-tom.html?#ixzz0oyu0lP16</span></span>
Mate, you are deluded. Liverpool is no better off now than it was at the end of Houllier's reign. In fact, it's in almost exactly the same position; well off the pace of the Premiership; a squad full of mediocre players, peppered with one or two superstars; financially second-rate, despite one or two marketing deals that flatter to deceive; full of unfulfilled promise; and a coach who had a good start, lost the plot, and blames everything and everybody but himself.
Swap Houllier for Benitez and you have exactly the same situation - in fact, Benitez has even lobbed a couple of veiled comments towards the fans. It the excuses and the intimation that Liverpool should be happy with 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 7th place that I can't stand. Second place has never been good enough for this club and if Benitez thinks otherwise, he should piss off back to Spain.
James.
You'll Never Walk Alone.
Hi Mark - I can definitely see the argument for retaining Benitez for the sake of stability. However, if last season proved anything to me it's that Benitez cannot motivate his squad properly. I just fear that as soon as we go through any kind of bad patch next season, the players will lose confidence again, and we'll have to suffer more sluggish, half-hearted performances.
ReplyDeleteQualification for the CL is absolutely imperative next season; if Benitez makes his usual mistakes (formations/subs/cautious approach etc), and engages in more public politicking with the owners, then we could fall short again, and that won't bear thinking about.
jamie kanwar u suck
ReplyDeletestop posting articles
i agree with tony
if u call most of the supporters "pro-benitez" you are pretty much "pro-H&G"
and ya ive read all your articles of the past and everything
before u posted sensible stuff and now its just "anti-rafa"
if u missed out on watching the 09-10 season u mightve noticed the benitez tried everything but non of our players were consistent throughout the whole dam season
torres ok he was but how many matches did he play
i agree benitez makes really stupid substitutions sometimes (ok many times) but how much can he do
he put the best team out on sooo many occasions and we still came out with a draw or a loss
how is rafa to blame for that??
according to me gerrards still the best player in the world cause what he can do i'm pretty sure noone in the world can do but even he wasnt in form this whole season
in december we had 13 of our top 18 players who were injured or coming out of injury
is rafa to blame for that too??
glenn johnson is amazing but his performances were more like a cameo
carra began the season very badly
yossi got injured halfway through
kuyts one of my fav from our team but he has only work rate and not enough quality
n'gog sucks but he improved alot this season and tried his best
insua sucked this season
agger was damm good and kyrgiakos was amazing
skrtel injured
i and many other liverpool supporters think aquilani was just awesome
i dunno why he was critisized soo much
not his fault rafa thinks lucas is better
but u couldnt blame rafa cause lucas performed like a proper professional and not just a young brazillian kid and gave it his all throughout the season
reina this yr was the best keeper in the world this yr
he and lucas are the only 2 liverpool players who were consistent this whole season
you tell me how a goalkeeper and a young central midfielder are supposed to hold up the whole team and win trophies when the rest of the team was soo inconsistent??
the players werent simply performing
how can u blame rafa for that
i also started hating rafa when the season was coming to an end but then after the season ended did i realize that he deserves another chance
just 1 more year atleast
i make statistics at home and ive made pages and pages of it in books and on my computer and really really detailed statistics atleast of the last 10 years and seperate ones for the last 6 about almost all the players
i shall start my own blog and post all on them then u can see for yourslef
I talked to a bloke I hadn't met in years just after Xmas, & didn't know his lad was in Liverpools 1st team squad. Promoted from the reserves start of the season)
ReplyDeleteHe told me Rafa had lost the dressing room.
I wont mention the lads name, but he's been farmed out on loan since
i think hes a yank but you cnt say that or he edits you out. not really a debat if you have to agree with everythin he says is it?
ReplyDeleteJamie. The two articles you quote in your piece as being anti Hicks at the top of the article, no posted comments are recorded from website traffic for them. Now it would be unfair to suggest that you have just inserted them onto this site to support your argument that you are not a stool pigeon of Hicks, because i know you are not that kind of person. It does pose the question however, why have you never referred to these articles before today, when these accusations of your pro Hicks agenda have been levelled against you for over six months?
ReplyDeleteNo comments are on those articles because I changed to a different comment system after they were posted, and sadly, the comments were lost. If you look in the archives, there are lots of posts from 2007-8 with no comments.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that I just posted manufactured them on the fly is ludicrous (!)
I've referred to those articles many times over the last year, but not directly. I usually direct people to the 'Hicks and Gillet' link in the label cloud (left side of the page) to see critical articles of H+G. That hasn't worked as the accusations just keep growing (!).
Additionally, I don't really like posting articles where the content has something to do with me (i.e. the main focus is not football), so that stopped me in the past. However, the accusations keep growing, so I felt compelled to respond.
Not that it will make any difference - people will ignore the truth and continue to say I'm on their payroll. It's pretty ridiculous really, but that's life!
Hi Jame
ReplyDeleteI always think that your comments are spot on. I also did not want Benitez right from the off, I would have liked to have gotten O'neill after his Celtic period. The pro Rafa brigade remind me of the pro Don Welch and Phil Taylor Brigade during our div2 period in the 50s.
We were always in the top four and this seemed good enough for the pro brigade. We got the same arguments "How do you know a new manager would be any better, at least we're in the top four. Of course it wasn't good enough and if it'd been up to them, we'd still be there and wouldn't have had our glory years.
Then finally, the club saw sense and the messiah arrived and the rest of course is history.
Why our club are so reluctant to part company with bad managers I don't know, but it's a fact. The management are also slow on other aspects ie marketing our club, we're miles behind United on the PR side; until recently, the club shop was a disgrace; and our transfer buys always seem to take ages and sometimes fall through altogether. If we do get rid of Benitez, it'll probably be just before the start of the new season, you watch.
Keep up the comments Jamie and don't let the Rafa lovers get to you, they preach loyalty but it's them who are being disloyal by accepting and wanting mediocrity to continue.
Well, Jaimie, if your goal is not to change points of view then at least it is to make people think about the state of the club etc., right. As for the discussion and debate on here I have to say that my impression is that they are a lot better with many more people coming on here who actually have some thought-out views and valid arguments, too. The posts have come a long way from being mainly abuse and simplistic denial. It became enjoyable to read through the comments.
ReplyDelete<span>The lady doth protest too much, methinks.</span>
ReplyDelete(Hamlet Act 3)
James, I would like to thank you especially for the words "in fact, Benitez has even lobbed a couple of veiled comments towards the fans". Unfortunately most fellow Reds don't seem to see the wood for the trees, yet.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet he doesn't even come close to Sami's art of defending.
ReplyDeleteHm, we are still too often treated to the ball being lumped roughly in the direction of Torres in the hope of him making something out of nothing, which he surely is capable of. This isn't even counter attacking football, it is route one football. Counter attacking is part of the game. If you don't have the players to dictate or boss the game in midfield it is a good option.
ReplyDeleteIf I were under the employ of Hicks and Gillette, or was toadying up to them in an effort to get something but wanted to appear as if a little impartial then I would definitely write the odd article that was less supportive of them so I could point to it at moments like this.
ReplyDeleteThe prevailing opinion abut you seems to be that you had to start your own website because you were unable to handle it when people disagreed with you on others Jaimie, that's a bit childish isn't it? A bit pathetic.
It's probably true though, sited run by true Liverpool fans probably got sick of your irrational blind hatred of Benitez and love of the men destroying our (not your) club.
An excellent post Harry and one I happen to agree with.
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt Jaimie was calling for Benitez' head after we won the ECL in 2005, saying it was an atrocious season is laughable frankly.
Please explain Jaimie as a fellow fan, how you found possibly the greatest ECL Final in recent memory and our eventual success an "atrocious" season?
Given the squad Benitez inherited from Houllier and our utterly bismal previous showings in the ECL during Houllier's reign, how could you possibly think winning the ECL and finishing 5th in the League as an atrocious first campaign for Benitez?
Jaimie, you don't like the guy and you're not professional in your approach to discrediting him so please do not try and imply that you're in no way have a personal problem with the man. At least have enough courage to stick to your guns, you've made your bed so lie in it.
It's looking likely Benitez will be here for the forseable future, you said he's get the boot on the 1st July or something to that affect?
Well we shall see Jaimie, the truth is unless we find a new Owner and they want a change of manager, Benitez will be here for at least another season - H&G aren't going to sack him as it will mean spending money to do so and as it stands I very much doubt they'll be looking to invest a penny more of their borrowed cash into LFC.
But hey, every cloud and all that, at least your poisoned quill gets another year's usage eh?
An excellent post Harry and one I happen to agree with.
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt Jaimie was calling for Benitez' head after we won the ECL in 2005, saying it was an atrocious season is laughable frankly.
Please explain Jaimie as a fellow fan, how you found possibly the greatest ECL Final in recent memory and our eventual success an "atrocious" season?
Given the squad Benitez inherited from Houllier and our utterly bismal previous showings in the ECL during Houllier's reign, how could you possibly think winning the ECL and finishing 5th in the League as an atrocious first campaign for Benitez?
Jaimie, you don't like the guy and you're not professional in your approach to discrediting him so please do not try and imply that you're in no way have a personal problem with the man. At least have enough courage to stick to your guns, you've made your bed so lie in it.
It's looking likely Benitez will be here for the forseable future, you said he's get the boot on the 1st July or something to that affect?
Well we shall see Jaimie, the truth is unless we find a new Owner and they want a change of manager, Benitez will be here for at least another season - H&G aren't going to sack him as it will mean spending money to do so and as it stands I very much doubt they'll be looking to invest a penny more of their borrowed cash into LFC.
But hey, every cloud and all that, at least your poisoned quill gets another year's usage eh?
An excellent post Harry and one I happen to agree with.
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt Jaimie was calling for Benitez' head after we won the ECL in 2005, saying it was an atrocious season is laughable frankly.
Please explain Jaimie as a fellow fan, how you found possibly the greatest ECL Final in recent memory and our eventual success an "atrocious" season?
Given the squad Benitez inherited from Houllier and our utterly bismal previous showings in the ECL during Houllier's reign, how could you possibly think winning the ECL and finishing 5th in the League as an atrocious first campaign for Benitez?
Jaimie, you don't like the guy and you're not professional in your approach to discrediting him so please do not try and imply that you're in no way have a personal problem with the man. At least have enough courage to stick to your guns, you've made your bed so lie in it.
It's looking likely Benitez will be here for the forseable future, you said he's get the boot on the 1st July or something to that affect?
Well we shall see Jaimie, the truth is unless we find a new Owner and they want a change of manager, Benitez will be here for at least another season - H&G aren't going to sack him as it will mean spending money to do so and as it stands I very much doubt they'll be looking to invest a penny more of their borrowed cash into LFC.
But hey, every cloud and all that, at least your poisoned quill gets another year's usage eh?
Jaimie your use of Heysel as a means to "defend" Aston Villa is absymal and very low even by your standards.
ReplyDeleteBy the time the ban was lifted (1992) Souness was in charge and doing a fine job of running the team into the ground - selling Dalglish's players and bringing in his own vastly overpriced but ultimately poorer replacements.
During the ban we were very successful domestically so there's a good chance we would have remained successful in Europe - the ban didn't effect our teams performance, Hillsboroughs affect on Dalglish left him numb and he resigned, Souness then came in, spent a fortune (using relative inflation changes Souness spent more than any other LFC manager in history NET) and left us in ruins.
MON was the cause of Villa's demise in the UEFA Cup in 2009, he chose to leave his most experienced players OUT of the squad for the trip to Moscow in favour of a push for the top 4, the resulting impact on Villa was catastrophic - they were dumped out of the UEFA Cup and then collapsed in the League ending up 6th. Those are two undeniable facts.
And saying they don't possess the reputation to attract top players is another myth, they've had the money from their billionnaire Owner (Randy Lerner) and MON has the highest NET spend since taking charge at Villa, second only to Man City since 2006. He's had the cash, the fact of the matter is that he's either xenophobic (which I doubt) or he lacks any nous in the transfer market outside of Britian - look how many players he's bought outside of Britian since joining Villa - Carew? I reckon you could count them on one hand, I believe he signed another player from Europe who never played a game for the Club!
He's a good motivator but that doesn't cut it at the top you need a broader knowledge of the game, european management experience (perhaps) and a great head for tactics. Being good at rallying your troops isn't enough.
Jaimie your use of Heysel as a means to "defend" Aston Villa is absymal and very low even by your standards.
ReplyDeleteBy the time the ban was lifted (1992) Souness was in charge and doing a fine job of running the team into the ground - selling Dalglish's players and bringing in his own vastly overpriced but ultimately poorer replacements.
During the ban we were very successful domestically so there's a good chance we would have remained successful in Europe - the ban didn't effect our teams performance, Hillsboroughs affect on Dalglish left him numb and he resigned, Souness then came in, spent a fortune (using relative inflation changes Souness spent more than any other LFC manager in history NET) and left us in ruins.
MON was the cause of Villa's demise in the UEFA Cup in 2009, he chose to leave his most experienced players OUT of the squad for the trip to Moscow in favour of a push for the top 4, the resulting impact on Villa was catastrophic - they were dumped out of the UEFA Cup and then collapsed in the League ending up 6th. Those are two undeniable facts.
And saying they don't possess the reputation to attract top players is another myth, they've had the money from their billionnaire Owner (Randy Lerner) and MON has the highest NET spend since taking charge at Villa, second only to Man City since 2006. He's had the cash, the fact of the matter is that he's either xenophobic (which I doubt) or he lacks any nous in the transfer market outside of Britian - look how many players he's bought outside of Britian since joining Villa - Carew? I reckon you could count them on one hand, I believe he signed another player from Europe who never played a game for the Club!
He's a good motivator but that doesn't cut it at the top you need a broader knowledge of the game, european management experience (perhaps) and a great head for tactics. Being good at rallying your troops isn't enough.
Jaimie your use of Heysel as a means to "defend" Aston Villa is absymal and very low even by your standards.
ReplyDeleteBy the time the ban was lifted (1992) Souness was in charge and doing a fine job of running the team into the ground - selling Dalglish's players and bringing in his own vastly overpriced but ultimately poorer replacements.
During the ban we were very successful domestically so there's a good chance we would have remained successful in Europe - the ban didn't effect our teams performance, Hillsboroughs affect on Dalglish left him numb and he resigned, Souness then came in, spent a fortune (using relative inflation changes Souness spent more than any other LFC manager in history NET) and left us in ruins.
MON was the cause of Villa's demise in the UEFA Cup in 2009, he chose to leave his most experienced players OUT of the squad for the trip to Moscow in favour of a push for the top 4, the resulting impact on Villa was catastrophic - they were dumped out of the UEFA Cup and then collapsed in the League ending up 6th. Those are two undeniable facts.
And saying they don't possess the reputation to attract top players is another myth, they've had the money from their billionnaire Owner (Randy Lerner) and MON has the highest NET spend since taking charge at Villa, second only to Man City since 2006. He's had the cash, the fact of the matter is that he's either xenophobic (which I doubt) or he lacks any nous in the transfer market outside of Britian - look how many players he's bought outside of Britian since joining Villa - Carew? I reckon you could count them on one hand, I believe he signed another player from Europe who never played a game for the Club!
He's a good motivator but that doesn't cut it at the top you need a broader knowledge of the game, european management experience (perhaps) and a great head for tactics. Being good at rallying your troops isn't enough.
I reckon if you stopped writing 'THE TRUTH' in every other posting you made, people would take a bit more seriously than a spread from OK! magazine
ReplyDelete<span><span></span></span>OFF TOPIC .... {delete if need be couldn't find a way to send you a pm}
ReplyDeletewondering your view on both these articles today ...
<span>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7136659.ece</span>
RBS is Losing patience with yank's inflated price ..
David Moores: ‘For the sake of the supporters, let Liverpool go’
<span>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7136410.ece</span><span></span><span></span><span></span>Thought better in this thread ? <span></span><span></span><span></span><span></span>
Thanks RC just read the David Moore's article myself. Really interesting it seems while H&G might be bad DIC could have been infinitely worse...
ReplyDeleteSo are you going to put up a facebook campaign to get rid of H+G like you have done with Rafa.?
ReplyDeleteNot so sure about DIC been worse even with the financial situation in Dubai ...
ReplyDeleteNo apology in the letter by Moores , only thing is his regret selling to the yanks and wanting them to walk and do the right thing and to do this now , would mean them selling at a lower price and maybe walking away with no profit , then why doesn't Moores give his £88m profit to the fans to buy a % share in the club with who ever the next owners are ..?
.
I would like to make a few points first is about RB. Whether you are for him or against him there is no way you cannot acknowledge that he has improved the expectations of the team's performance from supporters and media perspective. Under RB gone are the days where we competed for 4th here and there. We have been regulars and yes one bad season of 7th is not just unacceptable it is an embarrassment. However, RB has worked in a very very difficult situation and circumstance in terms of infighting and board level, lack of transfer funds. If you look at this expenditure he has spent to the tune of £220 million recouped around £160-180m and through champions league performance brought in £120m so that is a plus of £60m.
ReplyDeleteHad there not been debts on the club the money could have been reinvested in the squad or started work on the stadium. There have been many broken promises and basically putting it I think on the whole RB has done an exceptional job with his resources available. Yes he has made some shocking buys and decisions during games and even at starts of games. However, which top manager does not make these mistakes Alex Ferg has bought some right expensive flops as has Chelsea and even Wenger. RB has a better LEAGUE total than Wenger during the time he has been here with less time to work at the club.
I understand people will be urging RB to leave without giving him funds to invest in his first choice players without the need to sell first how can we judge him truly?! Liverpool's European adventures gave has such a good UEFA points Co-efficient that we were ranked number one in europre. We have broken many club records from points gained, goals scored and conceded, unfortunately we have come up against teams better resourced than us.
It is time to stand together get this change in ownership, maybe the owners had good intentions but as Moores put it in his letter they bit off more than they can chew. They need to stand aside as they simply do not have the resource for a club like Liverpool, get new owners him give Rafa the financial back befitting the manager of a title ambitious club such as Man Utd, Chelsea and now Man City, Real Madrid, Barcalona, Inter Milan and Bayern Munich and see what he does. Of course his signings are not going to compete with the £15m+ signings the others listed can afford as his signing are not in that bracket. Lets see how he does with the A list players until then you cant judge his title charge effectively.
Who pays the bills Jamie?
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect I don't think Moores has anything to apologise for. He backed the club with money to buy players before LFC were in the CL and regularly making 20m + for getting to the CL stages. Moores correctly identified the need to build a new stadium but didn't think (IMO) that he was the right man to do this and tried to find outside investment with the means to do this. From what I read he did his due dilligence and was advised by Financial institutions like PwC and Rothschilds that Higgs and Gillette were financially sound.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to Moore's giving his 88m to the fans why should he? Moores bought the club with his family money and invested in it and took it as far as he could I don't see why he should turn around now and give his money to the fans... H&G have leveraged the club not Moores and from what he was saying in his article it is likely that any owner would have done the same in order to make the cost work. For e.g. the reason the Kraft family didn't want to buy liverpoo was because they saw the writing on the wall in terms of esculating costs of wages and without a salary cap there was no way they could afford to make liverpool competitive.
Who pays the bills Jamie?
ReplyDeleteImo he should have looked a lot more into G+H' back ground and he would have seen how they got the money to buy other clubs and what happened at Corinthians.
ReplyDeleteMoores is saying the yanks should do the right thing and lower their price and more or less then imo would walk away with no profit then , that's why i would like to see him help the fans buy a share in the club from the £88m profit he made.
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Either way to anyone who is either pro Rafa or wants a new manager in charge or blame Moores or not the interest rates been paid the debt on the club etc etc , that should all be put a side for now and we should be all united and focused on the sale of the club and getting G+h out .. they want out we want them out , so lets focus on that ..
ReplyDeleteMr JK,
ReplyDeleteYour website and posts though do make me smile they also leave me frustrated as to...is he just trying to cause a fight?
The simple facts are that the vast majority of people on your sight disagree with you, i fully agree that doesnt meant that you are wrong...but it should make you take a long hard look at yourself and understand "have i got this right here"
Also please stop with the sucky posts telling how you are a genius for seeing the world in colour as opposed to narrow minded people and all that tosh.
Regarding my beloved liverpool....it is clear that you dislike rafa which is obviously your choice, but it gets a bit much when you comment on things which is such obvious drivvel.
There is no doubt that rafa has made mistakes, bought some bad players, made some tactical errors....but who hasnt?
In your own articles you have shown his win/loss ratio is bloody good and comparing liverpool now to where we were under houlier is huge.
You comment that we havnt won the league and not even close....but we are up against teams that can spend 5-10 times more then us a year on players....look at chelsea, united (in the past) city , spurs and villa even spend more....so competing with these teams has got harder and harder....yet your criticism is just as strong as ever....
and then its the owners which is the one point that does baffle me....
it is clear these yanks were just in for the money, they lied about the new stadium, and then lied about even saying it, lied about transfer funs and now want to leave ...."we have taken the club as far as we can.."
No one in there mind can actually defend these guys, ....well apart from you....i respect your views and opinions, but any argument defending these guys is just shocking....
yes they are not 100% at fault for the teams playing situation....but cmon, anyone with a brain would agree that ...not providing funs to help the manager when it was clearly needed ofc doesnt help...
last summer , we sold alonso for 30m bought GJ for 18 which was actually less due to pompey owing us money and aquilini was not the full fee up front.....
this shows we hardly spent a penny, if not made a profit, where was the money to help us challenge?? to help improve our squad.....you cant blame rafa for that...not even you can...
so stop defending this awful owners that any right minded person would agree share the majority of load for the situation this club is in
One of these days the walls will come down Jamie and when we have real access to H & G and their PR spin off stories, we will know how you took the silver. Until then enjoy your moment in the sun for a while longer. We will wait
ReplyDeleteThis argument about Houllier's players winning the Champion's League is very annoying. Of course those players played their part; they were at the club. But under Houllier those players couldn't get past the group stages of the CL. So there was a clear difference between that team under Houllier and that team under Rafa, and that was Rafa plus a couple of good players that he'd bought. He obviously motivated the players as on paper we should never have won that competition. You also have to commend him for his tactics. We beat some good teams to get to that final.
ReplyDeleteRafa played his part in winning that competition, there is no doubt about it, and to disregard his part in it by saying it was Houllier's team is absurd. If you're going to use this silly argument then Wenger won his first Premier League title with Rioch's team and Mourinho won Chelsea's first title in 50 odd years with Ranieri's team.
Also to say that Carragher's improvement has nothing to do with Rafa is wrong. You're very quick to blame Rafa for when a player doesn't do well i.e. Babel, Keane, but you loathe to attribute praise to Rafa when a player improves. Carragher was a steady rightback when Rafa joined and he then quickly became a very good centreback. Rafa also introduced a different style of defending (zonal marking) so every defender had to adapt and learn that new style. Are you telling me that this didn't help improve Carragher?
The only team to be in 2 finals in a row are MU, AC, LFC.
ReplyDeleteRight. Whatever you say!
ReplyDeleteSUCH AS
ReplyDeleteTHIS SITE IS NEGATIVE, ANTI LFC AND HAS NOTHING POSITIVE AT ALL TO SAY ABOUT US. BOYCOTT THIS ANTI LIVERPOOL FC SITE
ReplyDeleteWhat I find incredible is that Jaimie has found the time to edit and remove the first five paragraphs of my post (maybe a bit more; I haven't the time to check it all right now) for no good reason but has nothing to say in reply.
ReplyDeleteThose five paragraphs were not insulting, they were not rude in any way, they were fair and frank.
If you want to honestly generate sensible debate about Liverpool then you cannot do that if you censor people every time they question you in a manner that you find difficult to answer.
So, again, for the benefit of making the rest of the comment make more sense, here is where it started, with direct quotes from Jaimie and my comments and questions on them. In the interests of being fair and honest I hope that Jaimie stops editing them out and instead takes the time to give honest replies:
"I didn't want Benitez from day 1, and I wrote an article before he was appointed stating that. I am not fickle with my opinions; I have been consistent for years."
In your own words you've just said quite clearly what many have been trying to tell you and that you've consistently denied: you're biased against Rafa Benitez for your own reasons and it is this bias that is at the root of much of your writing.
"Your comment is indicative of the ingrained inflexibility of Liverpool fans these days."
Inflexibility like writing off a manager on day one? Even a manager that had just won the second of two La Liga titles from under the noses of Barcelona and Real Madrid and the UEFA Cup, too?
I'm sorry, but if someone else was that hypocritical then you would be the first to point it out and chastise them for it.
GH was never a good tactician, he's Mr Route One. Rafa definitely edges him in that aspect. But being a good tactician is not enough in EPL, the toughest league in the world. You need to have good man management, able to motivate your players and not keeping a distance from them as verified by SG, FT, Pennant, Riera, etc.
ReplyDeleteAlonso was crap until his final season when Rafa screwed him up by offering him to other clubs, that proved to be a motivation for Alonso to prove him wrong. Rafa is never a motivator which is essential is a passionate pacey league like the EPL.
Rafa will succeed in Serie A, no problem. I am certain of that because Serie A ifocus almost 90% on tactics.
The whole of the british media know what H&G have done to this club yet you still try and justify them, there is a debate on Talksport right now with real journalists, why don't you phone up and debate it with them?
ReplyDeleteBet you won't because you'd rather sit on your own little blog and delete peope's comments that you don't agree with.
Your the laughing stock of ALL the Liverpool forums, no wonder sportingo got rid of you!
Harry - I removed those paragraphs because you are massively misrepresenting my point of view. It is not as simple as you make out, and I cannot be bothered to justify the same points *again*. I've explained my views in detail countless time on various threads. I can't be bothered to go through it all again. I will respond to your other points when I have time.
ReplyDeleteHow can direct quotes from you be misrepresenting your point of view?
ReplyDeleteThese aren't a few words here and there pulled out of context, these are complete paragraphs that you have written in reply to someone to explain your position.
Did you not mean what you wrote?
Regardless, you do yourself no favours by censoring fair questions and comments: I merely pointed out what you had said and how it appears to the observer, and if there is clarification required then you should provide it rather than erase comments and questions without good reason.
Answering questions put to you is the basis of good debate. Pretending they don't exist is not.
Jamie thats exactly what i thought," you had moved to a new comments system and had lost all the old comments", i completely understand now.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes you never referred to these articles directly in the past, because you "didnt like the articles being about yourself", that makes complete sense.
Jamie I just cant understand either why these nasty people would accuse you of being in bed with HICKS, it just doesnt make sense.
Gosh, I truly wish I had your gift for irony 8-)
ReplyDeleteHow can I put this...
ReplyDeleteNo.
That is the point. Of course Rafa could NOT have changed the WHOLE team by then. he DOES deserve credit for getting the best out of the players in that CL campaign.
ReplyDeleteAnd he got to another final with mostly his team. I notice you chose to ignore that.
I am convinced that you know exactly what kind of comments we are talking about as you surely follow Rafa's press conferences closely. Whether you WANT to hear those comments is another thing and that is why I wont search for links now.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't anything really controversial in this article and I'm surprised it has illicited so many responses, however there is one snippet in your article that I want to highlight
ReplyDelete"<span>Whether the next manager is 'better' than Benitez is totally subjective - are you suggesting that the only manager capable of managing Liverpool effectively is Benitez?! It is this ingrained type of opinion that defines those who are blinbdly in favour of Benitez"</span>
Not quite sure that this is a new development. It's actually part of the fabric and culture of this club that the fans support the entire team - which includes the manager.
As long as a manager or player is showing 100% commitment then the fans will back them. We aren't a typical fickle bunch of fans who hold the players on a pedestal and see the manager as some type of ogre who should be ejected at the first sign of trouble.
We also base our support and opinions on what happens, not some long held grudge.
Now we are at the end of a season and can judge the entire campaign it is right to assess the players and staff and ask if they have done all that they can do. What is not acceptable is mid season bleating which detracts from the unity and support of the clubs fans.
I don't doubt that you are a passionate fan and I've said before that your aims at this site are laudable (even if my personal feeling is that sometimes you are flawed and a wee bit too sensationalist) but I really don't think you are a true typical long time fan with an appreciation of the clubs history and culture.
We demand total commitment to win every single game but we don't demand a divine right to win every game. Sometimes you get beat by better teams, it happens. The trick is to support at all times, cherish the good times, have faith that the golden sky is just around the corner but not spit the dummy every single time something goes awry.
You dont have to search for links. surley you must be able to mention a few, wether you have heard the so called comments or just WANT to believe youve heard them.
ReplyDelete"your just bringing more unnecessary doom and gloom down on the club" Thats rich coming from you.
ReplyDeletethe thing about Rafa is, no one is saying he's a lousy manager. He is definitely one of the best out there but his style of management and his similar-to-GH stubbornness and media handling are something that's annoying.
ReplyDeletethere was a comment here which targeted at RB's relentless usage of words to try and convince us that finishing 7th is nothing wrong and we 'overachieved' in the past.
he might be right in some sense but come on, could you have more dignity than that? that sounded as childishly lame as the 'fergy rant'.
when it comes to on-the-field plays, he's definitely one of the best. he's one of the best tactician, if not the best. but like i mentioned earlier, epl needs more than that. different leagues have different defining styles to it and EPL is definitely not RB's cuppa tea. e super fast paced nature means tactics are secondary to passion/motivated players.
RB is a sucker in man management, i'm sure no one would disagree with that. i'm sure SG, FT, pennant, carra, fowler, etc wouldn't disagree too. with bad management, your players will never fight for you like they fight for mourinho.