19 May 2010

Exclusive - BENITEZ win % comparison vs. UK-based top managers over the last 70 years.

In my previous article, I looked at Rafa Benitez's total managerial career statistics. In this article, I will take a look at win ratios: which Managers have the highest win percentage, and how have Liverpool’s managers compared with their rivals over the years?

Liverpool Managers Comparison: 1959-2010

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Rafa Benitez vs. Top PL Managers of the Modern Era

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Liverpool Managers vs. Top UK-based Managers of the Last 70+ years

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Again, I make no judgements - I'm just providing the information for people to make up their own minds.

See Also: Rafa Benitez Total Career Stats

COMING NEXT:

1. LFC managers unbeaten comparison (also vs. other top managers)
2. Benitez vs. Ferguson: First 6 years comparison

Jaimie Kanwar



194 comments:

  1. Arm. Mon has all that win percentage from beating pub teams in championships and at celtic. His % at Villa is 40 %, less than Souness. We all know how that happened there. I guess Rafa has had a really bad year this year. Can you show what his win percentage is before this year.

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  2. Thanks Jamie,

    This is really interesting and what is more surprising is that Benitez doesn't look to bad compared to other great liverpool managers and even when compared to other PL managers.

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  3. Thanks Jamie, 
     
    This is really interesting and what is more surprising is that Benitez doesn't look to bad compared to other great liverpool managers and even when compared to other PL managers.

    =-O

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  4. How did I know that this argument would the first to arise?

    People would just dismiss O'Neill's record because of the SPL.

    Well, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  Benitez had several seasons in the Spanish 2nd division - these are included in his stats.  You cannot just pick and choose and/or omit the worst year to make someone look better.  Benitez had a win ratio of 17% and 24% at Extramedura - should we just dismiss his entire career now because he got some crap figures in a crap league?!

    Double standards.

    Martin O'Neill's win percentage over his entire career is superior to Benitez's.  it is FACT.  Deal with it.

    All of Benitez's win percentages can be found here:
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitezs-total-career.html

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  5. Also , you have mentioned that Mon has won 13 trophies. Are you including his playing days. Does it include the FA trophy he won twice at Wycombe. Why not include the worst dressed manager award for Rafa for 6 years running.

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  6. All good, but I think Rafa would look even better if those other managers had no debth in their squads.

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  7. A trophy is a trophy - it doesn't matter at what level it was achieved.  I'm not going to just omit trophies just for you so Benitez looks better.

    You cleary have no idea about relative context - you have to consider each trophy won in the context in which it was won.

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  8. Ok so if his stats are good enough then surely he cant be that dire a manager in your opionon would you keep rafa IF his transfers where handled by kenny dalglish (just to be used as an example not actually stating any one person) or somebody else of significant standing in the world game?

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  9. Good piece - it's a pain number crunching.

    The stats tell a story, transfer spend tell another story (especially comparatively and in historical context) but also the quality of football played. That would be near impossible to quantify empirically and obviously is the most emotive issue in football.

    Arsenal play great football but have won nothing for a number of years, LFC are very cautious in their football under Benitez, United have a "we will score more than you" attitude while Chelsea are are a physically strong football team.

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  10. Jaimie, some good investigative work there.

    The unadulterated stats speak for themselves, and clearly, the facts are that Benitez appears to have run his course at Liverpool. Rafa's 2008/9 season at Liverpool was the exception rather than the norm it seems. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the almost 6 years Rafa has been at Liverpool is the longest he has been at a club?! I dont think it will get any better the longer he stays.

    In fact, according to the win % comparison vs other managers, Rafa only ranks 10th with regard to W%... and personally, I'm not enjoying the style of football Rafa has Liverpoool playing at the moment - and THAT is the biggest fact of all, it speaks the loudest. Liverpool's football style under Benitez has deteriorated to become monotonous and predictable.

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  11. This is proof that I am balanced and give credit where it's due with regards to Benitez.  I want him out, but I always acknowledge the good things he achieved.  The stats I've posted today place him (overall) in a positive light.  If I was so anti-benitez, why would I bother posting stuff that could be strengthen the arguments of those who are pro-Benitez?  I'm just interested in accurate information, so people can then make an informed choice.

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  12. Good lad Jamie.

    You're turning me into a Rafa lover.

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  13. I would say that looks bloody good.

    Rafa has got enough on his plate without fans getting on his back.

    Judge him when he's allowed to spend some cash!!

    An average spend of 13m a year for 6 years aint' gonna buy you sh!T

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  14. How can you compare managing Celtic in the SPL to an average side in the Spanish 2nd division? Use some common sense. Celtic & Rangers BOTH win 95% of their games every season, regardless of who the manager is. If Rafa went to either one of those teams, his win ration would rise considerable. It's a no-brainer.

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  15. I would be interested in your view of whether it is now likely that Benitez will go. MON looks like he will stay at Villa now so the only real choice would be Hodgson...

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  16. The stats are just one way of looking at it.  As Cressy says above, there are other things that are impossible to quantify.  The stats don't mean that Benitez is a brilliant manager.  He still has to go, for a number of reasons:

    *Ultra-cautious style of football
    *Dodgy formations
    * Ineffective, safety first subs

    * Alienation of players leading to loss of playing assets (Alonso, for example)

    *Horrible man-management of numerous players over the years.

    *Continual wasting of transfer funds

    *Frustrating preference for stamina and hard-work over flair and creativity

    * Over-reliance on limited players to the
    detriment of the team

    *Constant use of the press to manipulate the fans

    *Public politicking to gain an advantage of H+G
    regular public criticism of players

    *Failure to win a trophy for 4 years

    * Failure to challenge for the league 5 years out 6

    *Two utterly atrocious league seasons (04-5 + 09/10

    *Reducing the quality of the squad from that which he inherited
    * Somehow contriving to take an established top 4 team to 7th place

    *Pigheadedly refusing to deviate from playing 2 holding mids, even at home against relegation fodder

    Etc - the list goes on.

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  17. Balanced yep ok I will give you that but surely you cant believe that martin o'niel is a fit manager for liverpool his jumping to the floor antics might go down well in some places but not at anfield.People complained that souness was to expressive and emotional when he was the gaffer and he isnt even in the same league as o'niels hysterics thanks but no thanks.

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  18. no, thats exactly what it did buy him.

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  19. The answer to your question is so self-evident there's no point even responding.

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  20. I for one would like to see the drawn games percentage compared

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  21. For myself i would look at Rafa's stats from when he took over at Valencia and fergie when he took over at UTD as it shows the same pressure and goals of both Managers in proper competitive leagues .

    And just showing their time in the premier league is even fair enough and shows only a 3% difference even with the backing and the time ferguson has had at utd.. and 2% with Wenger

    So well done Rafa ..
    .
    .

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  22. I definitely think Benitez will go, but not until July 1st (unless he's sacked or a team agrees to pay his compensation).  After that date, another year of his contract has expired, which means the compensation due to him is about 4m less than it is now.

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  23. As if he didn't spend any cash yet, eh. Good Lord. What has he spent on Torres for example? Apples?

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  24. So your argument against O'Neill is that he jumps up and down a lots on the sidelines?!  Right.  I get it.

    Please explain how excessive bodily movement has any impact on a person's managerial abaility.  Thanks.

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  25. You have some fair points there though. I think he has made LFC a top draw again. He also got us torres, masch and pepe. I hate his 2 defesive midfielders approach. I wouldnt trust him with transfer funds. But i think he should get another chance. LFC can be fixed. Just need 4-5 players. I think Insua cost us 20 + million this year. Can you do a game by game review of goals scroed from LFC left side. I mean he played in Jovanovic, He lost Govu, Didnt track Lisandro. Cant shoot with his right feet. If we get that fixed ....

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  26. Jamie .

     any chance of showing the stats for Ferguson s first 6 years in the premier league and Wenger's compared to Rafa's 56% in his 6 years.
    Because all 3 had a rebuilding stage at the start of the premier league career

    Just show your show things in a fair way ....

    cheers.

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  27. You see - this is a prime example of how those who are Pro-rafa try to twist things.  The stats/facts etc are never enough - there always has to be some exception.  'But we have to look Ferguson v Benitez first 6 years'.  Fine.  If benitez comes out looking worse, then the goalposts change again. 'But now we have to look at his time at Valencia v ferguson at Man U'.  Then, if Benitez comes out looking the worse fo the two again, then some other variation will be proposed, until we get to a stage where Benitez looks better than who he's being compared against.

    And can you please stop with the LIE that Benitez has not been backed.  He has had over 300m to SPEND (that means money has has actually had in his hand spend on players).  He has been backed ENOUGH.  No amount of peopl saying he hasn't is going to make it true.

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  28. Its called dignity and I would rather take a manager with dignity than a prima dona like o'neil he has landed a safe job at villa where he has done..............nothing hasnt raised the profile of the club in any way has spent a decent amount of money and yet his players underachieve as relevant to the money spent.Now please correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but arent these the major gripes against rafa.

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  29. But then, we'll have someone saying 'Okay, he has been backed, but not as much as Man City' and then when you point out that the bulk of City's spending has been over the last 2 years only, then *another* lame exception will be made.  It's highly amusing. :)

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  30. Oh he didnt take a team from 4th to 7 th. He took it from 2nd to 7th.
    I think the squad now is worth double when rafa came in. We had djibrril Cisse and Owen had left. Who else but didi, carra, stevie was there anyway. Worncok...Yeah. They talked about him being in the England squad, and he went to a tailspin. No balls. Danny Murphy is better than Lucas though. But Aqua can be better if he can put on some muscle.
    I want Dirk Kuyt to play only 15 games a year. and only as a sub. He can play in Europe a few times. But thats it. I think Maxi and Jovanovic will make it easier to drop him.

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  31. and Martin O'Neill's 4 years in the premier league

    Think it is fair to show all four of Rafa , O'Neill , Fergie and Wenger in the same league in the same time frame as Rafa , quite a few here in work would like to know and that's fans from all 4 clubs.

    .

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  32. And RC - I HAVE shown things in a fair way already.  Just because you don't think I have doesn't make it so.  Your views are coloured by the fact that you are rampantly pro-Benitez, so anything that doesn't make him look like the greatest manager that ever lived is not goin to be 'fair' to you.

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  33. alonso alienated as you say himself...

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  34. If you want those stats, go and dig them out yourself.  I used Wenger/Mourinho/ferguson as they are the top PL managers during benitez's reign, and have comparable resources.

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  35. By that token Jamie would you argue that a manager who had a win percentage of 80% in the Blue Square Prem is ready to manage a top team in the Premier League or La Liga?

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  36. Hang on a minute , yes im pro Rafa and i dont want to twist anything , you have mentioned O'Neil and with that i thought it would be fair to throw him in the mix ...


    Imo Jose stands out with 70% and took over a good squad at Chelsea who had finished 5th with a billionaire backing him to the hilt

    I wouldn't be great at digging out the stats and that's why i asked you for them .... not saying or wrong if i did say it wasn't fair .

    But looking at the four without Jose in the same 6 year time frame in the same league taking over clubs in need of rebuilding under stricter budgets imo would be a fair or just nice to see , if you dont mind , but if you do what can i say Jammie
    .
    .
    .

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  37. Fair enough Jamie, but you could have placed MON in the PL table so we can see how they compare in the same league. Ultimately your table does prove that MON has a better win ration than RB, but I think it would have been interesting to see the win % of managers of the top 10 teams in the PL (or better all managers of the past season) then we could see how RB really compares to those he's competing with.

    Also I have to ask, have you included trophies won from MONs playing days? If you have its not really a fair comparison of managers, is it? Using trophies won from playing days would make Roy Keane one of the best managers based on trophies won, if your comparing managers I don't think you can include stats from their playing days in one category and not the other (i.e. trophies won and not games won)

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  38. That wasnt actually an answer to the question was it now it was just an attack on rafa.

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  39. Jamie what ever the facts come out as i will be more than happy with and thankful , you have shown what i think is a fair stat to compare....

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  40. Benitez is ruining our club.
    Boring boring Liverpool are way too defensive

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  41. in comparing the 4 in the

    1.The same time frame
    2.Same league
    3.Already done for Jose in his 3 years so will take that....

    imo its as fair as it gets and you will have no arguments about is as i would be happy as i see it fair as ive stated a few times ...
    Just taking it as a % win and nothing about owners injuries transfer funds etc ... :)
    .
    .
    .

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  42. Intersting yet not surprising to find Benitez in this position. However, I have gone from wanting him replaced mid season up until recently, when I gave some thought to the lessons he would have been forced to learn from the mistakes he made (i.e. the media have done more than enough acting as our messenger that it just was not acceptable) - which will force him to change something for the next season. 

    Its no secret that benitez is a calculating/ analitical manager (constant scrbbling in his little black book and player feedback certainly suggest this) so I would exect he will make quite dramatic changes to either the training, tactics, staff, players or a combination.

    With the season we've just had, cracks were apparent i.e. there was no wallpapering over the cracks last year, no luck to dilute the problems we had.

    Therefore, I reiterate, next season Benitez is the best placed person to know what needs changing and I will put money on it (literally) that he will get liverpool into the top 3 - minimum! 

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  43. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for Premiership football stats in the first six years Jamie, as this would make the statistics shown above more accurate in judging ability. As I mentioned above, there's a world of difference between various leagues and these figures are skewed by so many confunding variables it makes any conclusion almost entirely redundant.

    Removing two variables by comparing figures A) in the same league and B) at a similar stage of a club's progression (ie: building a new team under a new manager's vision) would at least firm things up a bit.

    Of course there are still so many other confounding variables, such as the state of the league, money available, quality of the team as it existed before the manager's arrival, strength of the competition etc. that it's still of limited quantifiable use, but at least it'd be slightly more accurate.

    Quite why you're being so dismissive of the idea I don't know.

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  44. You want benitez out easy buy the club and sack him! If you re not going to do that then back whoever is at the club! Otherwise go support someone else.. Leanr what the word support means!  

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  45. Proper supporter2:27 pm, May 19, 2010

    Kanwar you are a liar,you said you wouldnt be back until Benitez left Liverpool , Go away. I read on your site last week that you are H&Gs propogander machine Have to agree.

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  46. The Q/A person on the other article2:29 pm, May 19, 2010

    You state that Rafa has been backed with Money and your stating that he got 300mil to spend. Now if that is correct if one divides that with 6 it means he had 50mil to spend each year. Can you tell me were was that amount last year? Hmmm maybe he didnt spend it last year but the year before. so that means he spent 100mil during 2008? is it? But  hold on a second he didnt spend 100mil in 2008!! so were is this money going? or better were is this number being invented from? And what about the money brought in by players? that has been constantly round the 25/30mil per season. Man I'm getting confused here!! So if we multiply 30 by 6 we have 180mil of money recuoped. Then if we get the 300mil less the 180mil we get 120mil of net spend. 120 divided by 6 is equal to 20mil each season. Now since by reaching the final twice and once we also won it and by reaching the semi final of the champios league we earned much more than 20mil in each season we can say that in 3 of his 6 seasons he earned that 20mil him self. That leaves us with another 60mil. now if you divide that by 6 it will get you 10mil and that was the transfer kitty Rafa had to manage in his tenure!! And that was basicaly why I asked in my other post what could a manager do with 10mil + money from sold players.

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  47. For those that are interested, and for what it's worth - win percentage in the first six years:

    Wenger - 57%
    Benitez - 56%
    Fergie - 44%

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  48. I agee with you Jamie, and thank you for at least putting down as many facts as you can. I am also not a big fan of Rafa, hes decent for european football but for english premier he dont have what it takes. At the end of the day, any manager who has money can go out and buy the best players in the world. At least  theres a much bigger chance of being successful. Rafa always complains about it. I mean look at arsenal, hardly buy  anyone still in champs league and have built a nice new stadium. Wenger much more clever with money. Everyone has duds buys etc, but overall compared to rafa signings, they're more successful. And i find rafa a child, blames everyone else for his mistakes. Just grow a pair and admit ur wrong, u'd have  more respect from people like me. Only problem is, who do you replace rafa? No one wants liverpool job, owners suck

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  49. In the same way that a club doesn't only pay attention to win % when choosing their next manager, neither should we when determining the standard of manger. 

    It is a snippet of information that illustrates one thing. That is all. 

    An prime example of this is where Rafa has a better win ratio than paisley, shankley et al. Yet Paisley has won 3 European Cups. And Kenny has a higher win % than Rafa but has never won a European Trophy as manager. 

    It is what it is. and nothing more. 

    Jaime tries to illustrate points that back up his anti-rafa argument and this is one of them, just as the pro-rafa argument illustrates points to back up their case.

    Its called debate.

    I am on the side of the Pro-Rafa fence currently. 

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  50. In the same way that a club doesn't only pay attention to win % when choosing their next manager, neither should we when determining the standard of manger. 

    It is a snippet of information that illustrates one thing. That is all. 

    An prime example of this is where Rafa has a better win ratio than paisley, shankley et al. Yet Paisley has won 3 European Cups. And Kenny has a higher win % than Rafa but has never won a European Trophy as manager. 

    It is what it is. and nothing more. 

    Jaime tries to illustrate points that back up his anti-rafa argument and this is one of them, just as the pro-rafa argument illustrates points to back up their case.

    Its called debate.

    I am on the side of the Pro-Rafa fence currently. 

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  51. Rafa being blamed for the new stadium now? Interesting.

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  52. , any chance of putting O'Neil in there
    .
    .
    cheers.
    Jose........70% {3 YEARS}
    Wenger - 57% 
    Benitez - 56% 
    Fergie - 44%O'neil -- ? {4 years}

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  53. Where did you source the info so i can do myself in future ...

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  54. If there was an alternative that was better then maybe people would agree, no one anywhere near Rafa's quality will want to manage the club and thats what it all comes down to. You can moan all you want about him but hes the best we can get, anyone who thinks Mourinho would come to Liverpool needs mental care, and anyone who thinks O'neil would want to come to Liverpool let alone be good enough for Liverpool should be shot.

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  55. You and I both know that's a spurious example, RedJohn. 

    O'Neill can be compared because he is *also* a premiership manager.  Someone who only managers in the Blue Sq Prem is *not* a PL manager, are they?

    Almost all the managers in the comparison have done their time in the lower leagues/lower quality leagues.  Wenger was in Japan (!); Ferguson in Scotland (Where he won a Euro trophy, by the way); Benitez plied his trade in Spanish 2nd division etc etc.

    It all balances out, and if you and others were being objective instead of worrying so much about how Benitez is percieved, then maybe you'd be able to see the wood for the trees.

    When I started compiling the figures, I had no idea where O'Neill would end up.  if he'd ended up with a lower figure than Benitez, I would still have included it.  I would not then come up with countless lame excuses why Benitez shouldn't be ahead of him.

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  56. No, I have not included trophies from his playing days. He has 13 trophies.  Deal with it.

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  57. JK, Apart from the motivational skill that MON has, do you think he has the tactical knowledge to be a success at liverpool?? far too often we've see villa be hot & cold throughout MON's time there. i personally dont want MON at Anfield, i do think he a good manager, but i would want a proven TOP manager to take over.

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  58. Exactly, Anteater.  That aspect of the pro-Benitez argument is the most mind-numbing. Poor Benitez - he's had no money to spend!  No backing, but he still spent 20m on Keane; 18m on Aquilani; 18.6m on Masch; 17m on Johnson; 11.5m on Babel; 10.5m on Alonso; 8m on Dossena; 7m on Riera etc etc.  I wish I had no money like that spend.

    *awaits lame net spend argument/various excuses about how Glen Johnson only cost 10m because of Crouch/ How we only paid an initial payment on Aquilani...

    *shoots self in head. Again*

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  59. MON is on 40% based on four seasons - he's been fairly consistent after his first season (which was shocking at 29%) at 42-44% win ratio so I wouldn't imagine this would be much different after another two.

    Though like I said, these figures are extremely misleading if you're expecting to draw any solid conclusions. Villa wouldn't be expected to win as many games as the bigger teams, though this admittedly small pool of figures suggests he has peaked now.

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  60. Speculating is pointless. The club accounts tell the whole story.  You don't just take the total spend and divide it by 6; it's much more complicated than that.  The accouting years runs 31 July-31 July; any players bought sold within those dates form the gross/net spend.

    Benitez has spent over 300m in 6 years.  The club accounts prove this to be the case (and I will post an article illustrating that soon enough).

    Your analysis of the the transfer spending and where/how the turnover is used is flawed.

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  61. Excellent point

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  62. Your figure for Ferguson is inaccurate, as I will illustrate in my next article.

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  63. Quite funny that Liverpool fans who want Rafa out, not a single ones scouse, i assume the same goes for "Kanwar". Maybe thats one of the positives of this season, will get all the plastic fans like the one writing this utter tripe out of the club.

    Insult to football to even call yourself a supporter.

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  64. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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  65. What he's saying Jamie, is that he hasn't spent £300m in that he has spent £300m of the club's money, he's spent £120m of the club's money.

    Please don't pretend that net spent isn't relevant.

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  66. I would prefer to see 1 more season of Rafa, with some cash to spend on players, and see what he can do then judge him rather than have someone new come in and having to wait 3 more years for them to get their team sorted.

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  67. I'm sorry, Mark, but please show me where in my article I made any editorial comment about the figures?  Please show me where I inferred that the person with the highest win percentage = the best manager?

    I stated in the comments that O'Neill has a higher win % than Benitez, but that is merely stating a fact.  i didn't say it made him better.

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  68. I totted it up myself mate from here:

    http://www.premierleague.com/page/Statistics/0,,12306,00.html

    The figures ARE accurate, to 1 or 2%. No doubt Jamie will try and find some reasons to distort Fergie's actual figure, but as I said these stats are ultimately rather pointless anyway.

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  69. The arguments you make here are the most relevant.

    Quality of football is poor and predictable.

    We over rely on Torres - poor sod used by himself up front and booted in turns by centre halves. Gerrard is totaly cheesed off and his body language and performances prove that.

    He constantly picks poor players (Lucas, Kuyt, Yossi, Ngog, El Zhar, Insua etc) and plays other players out of their best position to accomodate the poorer players. The attitude is don't get beaten rather than go out to win, that works well in Spain or Italy but In Britain every team regardless of level fancies themselves in any game and will try to win.

    Rafa's man management skills are atrocious both in terms of players, backroom staff and his employers.
    The current owners are awful and have broken promises but that should not be used as an excuse for not competing effectively in all competitions.
    After 6 years we have no youth policy to speak of, well if El Zhar, Jay Spearing and Pacheco are the product then that speaks volumes.

    The way players have been shunned and treated by Rafa is childish, even if Xabi wanted to leave (which I believe he did not initially) his mind was changed by his treatment when Rafa would not let him stay at home for the birth of a child and then the very public persuit of Gareth Barry (a far inferior player), Keane, Bellamy, Babel, Riera, Crouch, Hyppia (why he was allowed to leave God only knows), Riise... the list could go on.

    Ultimately Rafa will not win us the league (which we crave) and will continue to play cautious boring football with mediocre over priced foriegn players.

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  70. That a No Jamie ?


    Have the stats from another poster been removed ...

    Wenger 57%
    Rafa     56%
    Fergie   44%

    ????

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  71. It's an extreme example Jamie, but not spurious. It is meant to illustrate that if you can't guarantee that a manager ready for the Prem just because he has done well in the Blue Square, then you also can't guarantee them ready for the Prem just because they've done well in the Scottish league, though obviously to a far lesser degree.

    Surely you see the point I am making.

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  72. I see your point, Damien, but being a top manager is not a pre-requisite for success.

    What managerial experience did Guardiolo have before taking the Barca job?  What about Laurent Blanc?  Bob Paisley?  Kenny Dalglish?  Wenger was in Japan before he went to Arsenal.  Ferguson was in Scotland.

    Ferguson and O'Neill is a good comparison.  I bet back then, Man U fans were saying the same thins: 'We don't want someone from the scottish league and blah blah blah.  Look what happened next.

    O'Neill is a proven Premiership manager.  His team also finished above Benitez's this season, with less resources, a lower quality squad, and a lower quality of player to choose from generally (when it comes to buying players).

    Tactics are not everything.  Look at Benitez - a highly tactical manager to the point of obsession.  Has it done Liverpool any good in the league?  The major thing the club is missing is inspirational leadership, and that's what O'Neill would bring to the club.

    And for me, that is far more important.

    If you examine the history of English football, it is always the managers with the motivational skill that prosper.  Think Shankly, Revie, Nicholson at Spurs, Paisley, Dalglish, Clough, Robson, definitely Ferguson, Mourinho etc.

    Motivation is the key.

    Look at our las two managers: Benitez and Houllier.  Tactical managers first; suspect man-management/motivational skills.

    That is our undoing at the moment.

    Our squad - properly motivated and inspired - can achieve great things.

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  73. I must say, reading this, Jamie you are quite arrogant and rude.  You hate any criticism of your work, which is some steads is good and in some it's not.

    Your comparison here doesn't add in any variable for the league they were managing in.  As people have pointed out, if you run a club that is guaranteed a large proportion of wins in their league due to status of the club compared with others in the league, such as Celtic and Rangers, this will completely skew the figures.  MON isn't a better manager than Rafa, he's just managed a team that's guaranteed a win almost every game.

    Give us a comparison for Manual Pellegrini in his time in La Liga and his stats will be amazing.  But he manages Real Madrid, so expected.  These comparisons are just too open to suggestion. 

    You can only really do a comparison within the same league or level such as La Liga/Serie A/Premiership, else it's a worthless read.

    And before you say it, yes i can just leave this site and that's what i am now doing after wasting 10 minutes of my time on comparison stats that aren't even fair (and i'm not a pro-Rafa before you start spouting that cr@p either)

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  74. Apologies - the figure for Fergie is more like 42% in his first six league seasons

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  75. My mistake ... on page 2

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  76. Apologies - I've been through Fergie's stats again and the figure is more like 42%. This is just using simple maths based on the league tables, so should be accurate (within 1%) though bear in mind that ten more games were played during these six seasons.

    ReplyDelete
  77. cheers...


    Jose........70% {3 YEARS}  
    Wenger - 57%  
    Benitez - 56%  
    Fergie - --44%
    O'neil ---- 40% {4 years}

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  78. The fact is that none of you have ever been to Anfield, you were never there with Evans or Houlier.

    You just repeat what the "media" say.

    Rafa must say, & if any of you even lived in Liverpool or Merseyside you would know that the Red 3/4's of the city are behind him.

    Ste

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  79. Benitez oh Benitez...

    This has to be the biggest clown of a manager ever at LFC. He now says that he wants to put English back into Liverpool?

    Why the hell now, oh wait a second does Warnock, Crouch, Owen, Murphy, Mellor, Kirkland, Guthrie, Carson, Hobbs, Pennant and the latest David Martin ring a bell?

    "It is something that we have always tried to do. We tried to sign Gareth Barry, we did the same with Glen Johnson. That was always the idea," the Spaniard told his club's official website. "We have tried to bring in British players with the right mentality and the passion for the club."

    Did any of the English players I have mentioned not have the right mentality and passion for the club and how are some of the players Rafa bought in like Degen, Dosenna, Lucas, Ngog, Josemi and the list goes on any better then the above mentioned English players? Each and everyone of them were sold by Rafa, now all of a sudden he wants to bring English players back to the club. Arent there any good English players that can be promoted from our youth system. YOUTH SYSTEM? Do we have one? Does Rafa even know how to spell it?

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  80. Red john has shown a link to his workings but you argue your stats down to the ground but can't accept when it doesn't suit your agenda something you throw at the pro Rafa majority
    .
    .

    So maybe you will show the 6 years for all 5 yourself { 3 jose 4 o'neil}

    and let us look at them

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  81. Be Fair Cressy

    Xavi alonso had just had 2 v poor seasons poor when Rafa tried to sell him. 
    Keane, regardless of who bought him was crap. 
    Bellamy was sold to pay towards torres
    Riera has been a lazy sh1thouse this year.
    Crouch wanted to leave to play every week as he was suffering internationally.
    Hyypia wanted fist team football and so did Riise (who had also turned crap)

    Gerrard and Torres have also said that Rafa Benitez has made them the players they are today.

    The reason there is so much of a void between those who think Rafa deserves another year and the over the top berating of him by other is because it is exactly that. Over the top and knee Jerk. Knee Jerk has never been the Liverpool way and never will be.

    Why dont you go and support City. They will sack their manager ever year just because he loses a few games

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  82. I think the stats show us that, all things considered, Rafa has done very well at Liverpool. He's shaded only by the best of the best in terms of top flight performances. It's something I say time and time again, in order to improve on what Rafa has done we need a really top class manager, someone in the same league as Wenger or Fergie. Maybe ONeill would be that man, maybe he wouldn't, there are no guarantees. He could just as easily lead Liverpool to exactly the same kind of results we've seen over the past 20 years. Same would go for Mourinho although his record is growing in stature every club he ends up with. Could he do it without a star-studded squad? And we already know that he has a stubbornness and love of pre-approved tactics to more than match our current boss. 
    I think people are just going to go with what they think would work best and, perhaps more importantly, what they like. I'm happy to see Rafa stay another year and show us that it was this season that was the fluke, not when we pushed United for the title. I like how, when all his plans start to click, we end up with a team that can wipe the pitch with any opposition and do it in style. Other people are tired of his personality and complex, often stubborn, tactical football and would prefer a more straightforward character in charge.
    As it stands I think there is little doubt we'll see Rafa in charge next season. Any likely candidates are already lined up for other jobs and it would be a financial disaster to sack him. Of course every fan is well within their rights to maintain their disapproval. I just think they'd have a better time of things if they tried to not let it bother them so much. Arguing with reality might seem interesting for a while but it's ultimately rather futile. 

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  83. He's also had a sell to buy policy forced upon him meaning our squad loses strength.

    I cant believe people are hammering Insua and Pacheco (admittedly Spearing is pants) Isua has had 1 season in which he's managed to win his first international cap and Pacheco is 17 and made a handful of sub appearances! Jesus! Give the lads a chance wont you!

    And what of Martin Kelly. 

    The youth system hasn't produced anything for 10 years since gerrard came on the scene apart from Warnock who wanted to leave to play every week as Riise was a good player at that point. The fact that it hasn't produced anything of note since Rafa came isn't exactly all down to him! It cant possibly be.

    He's only just got control of it last summer!! 

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  84. I would like to see Rafa and MON in a dance off...

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  85. Motivational skills are certainly required for a manager but they are not the key. These are highly paid, highly talented individuals who should have a desire to prove they are the best through what they do on the pitch and trophies and medals they win. Again I feel I need to provide a little balance here. You say that Benitez has no motivational skills I would point to the CL final in 2005 where three goals down he inspired probably the greatest come back i've ever seen in football.

    Secondly given that the CL is now pivotal to our continued success and ability to attract players I would argue that the ability to play tatically in Europe is very important and is not easily learnt. Remember Everton's foray into the CL a few years ago wasn't a great success. That is not to say that MON can't be a success at LF but we should not be appointing him because he can inspire a team that's not good enough. It should be because he has the nouse to lead us forward not only in the PL but in the CL as well.

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  86. It is implied by the very fact you have posted it. Otherwise what would be the point?!

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  87. So he's not better then?!

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  88. That is just the league.  My comparisons are for all competitions.  If you want to compare Benitez/Ferguson accurately for their first 6 years, you have to use all competitions, not just the league. Well, that's what countless pro-Benitez fans who've urged me to do such a comparison have told me.

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  89. <p>Alex Ferguson won the Scottish league with Aberdeen. 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>Thats an achievement. More of an achievement that winning it with celtic.
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>Jaimie, I hate to throw a spanner in the works of your anti Benitez arguments but in your other posts you have said that our sqaud isn't good enough and say that Rafa has been crap in the transfer market but here you say
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>"<span>Our squad - properly motivated and inspired - can achieve great things."</span>
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>So he's either brilliant in the transfer market and crap at motivating or crap in the transfer market but has managed to motivate those crap players?
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>It cant be both can it surely?!
    </p>

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  90. Also, I fail to see how you could use that site for Ferguson's first 6 years at man U - the league table charts start in 1992.  Ferguson became Man U manager in 1986, so the correct time period for him is 1986 - 1992.

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  91. See, RC - this is the problem with the Pro-Benitez brigade; you will just blindly accept anything as long as it backs up your view of Benitez.

    The site RedJohn says he used for ferguson's figures doesn't even have stats for 1986-92.  So tell me - how could he calculate Ferguson's figures accurately?!

    Plus, it should be for all competitions, not just the league.

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  92. It is not implied by the fact I posted it at all.  nice try though 8-)

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  93. I personally believe O'Neill will better for Liverpool, yes ;)

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  94. My Giddy Aunt

    Warnock - Riise one of best left backs in the league ahead of him and wanted playing time so left.
    Crouch - Wanted playing time so left
    Owen - Wanted to go to Real Madrid. Was also tried to be re-signed. Glad we didn't considering his injury record.
    Murphy - Shouldn't have been sold
    Mellor - Very basic player
    Kirkland - Made of Glass (and we have a better keeper now anyway)
    Guthrie - played in the championship last season - enough said
    Carson - Has turned crap. Also we have a better keeper
    Hobbs - Last seen playing for leicester in league 1.
    Pennant - Horrible attitude
    David Martin - Favoured player by Rafa - Been injured since he collided with a post against debrecen.

    Max, You my friend are the clown! 

    We haven't had a youth system for 10 years. You can't blame everything at the Door of Benitez just because you dont like him

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  95. Mark - once again you are completely misrepresenting the nature of my arguments.  I can't be bothered to correct you. 

    I will provide one example though": Spurs

    Last season - flirting with relegation

    Add on motivating manager + some smart buys = CL football.

    Same with Liverpool.  That is why our squad is capable of great things.  Under Benitez, it is crap.  under a different manager, it will prosper.

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  96. Good job the board dont agree

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  97. Andy therefore if these crap players becoem good under a good manager then they become good signings?

    So Benitez is good in the transfer market he just cant motivate them.

    That is what you are saying. 

    It is a clear irrefutable FACT! 

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  98. Well no of course I didn't use that site for Ferguson's figures, I used this one: www.footballstatisticsresults.co.uk

    Fair enough, yes my stats are just for the league, but as a vague barometer it's still relevant. I have stated these figures are very rough; I'd put more effort into a more comprehensive analysis but I don't have the time or inclination because as I said, they are of limited use anyway.

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  99. A lot of time and effort must have gone into compiling this information so thanks for the excellent investigative work. Having said that, it merely confirms, to me, just how well Benitez has done for us.

    a) 3rd best LFC manager in terms of games won percentage
    b) with respect to some of the other successful managers, only Martin O'Neill stands out in terms who I may not have expected on the list

    I think my admiration for his work has only been enhanced by the information you provided and those figures would have looked even better before last season. Clearly he's made some mistakes and I hope, like all great managers, he learns from them and it makes him better for  whether that be with us or someone else.

    Finally this information should be made available to the national press and some of our supporters as they might cut him some slack (well maybe not!) knowing that perhaps he isn't the bumbling manager/fat spanish waiter he's often portrayed to be.

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  100. As mentioned above, I used this one for Fergie: www.footballstatisticsresults.co.uk

    I thought I'd check them again as you said they were wrong. Aren't I a nice boy.

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  101. Not with £0m to spend it won't...

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  102. Yes, because Aquilani, Johnson, Kygiakos, Keane, Dossena + Riera all cost 0 pounds to buy.

    If you really believe that, you're beyond help.  For example: in this years LFCAGL accounts, it is stated that the club PAID (PAID as in HANDED OVER MONEY) 20.4 combined for Aquilani + Kyrgiakos.

    I guess you're going to tell me now that the club accounts are wrong; that the club lied to companies house, the inland revenue, and committed accounting fraud at the same time.

    0 spent?  Utter footballing delusion brought on by the effects of groupthink ;)

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  103. But look at Barca. Both Messi and Xavi said that the only difference between pep and Rijkaard was in their relationship with the players, that tactics and training were almost the same. There you have a nice example of motivation making the difference. (Not saying Barca was a bad team with Rijkaard, because it wasn't, but Pep took them to the next lvl)

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  104. How do you know? have you spoken to anyone on the board?

    I have, and O'Neill is the board's no 1 choice.  He is also Ken ny Dalglish's no 1 choice. 

    That O'neill is the board's choice has already been leaked to the media - there are several stories about it floating around.

    If Benitez goes, O'Neill will be Liverpool first choice.  if he's available, he will be the new manager.

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  105. David Martin - was offered a new contract but chose to let it run down and join MK Dons instead

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  106. Thanks for looking them up anyway.  I know it's a boring job.

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  107. That's just a ridiculous statement ... i asked for stats from you or any one who wants to post them and red john did that , and i took him at his word like i have your stats ,  I just asked for the same years in the premier league nothing more nothing less .If you want to show total games in the first 6 years or how many year like Jose or O'Neil might have in the premier league that is fine with me , But whats the harm in posting just the premier league and total  games for all competitions
    to compare seems fair to me and i do accept the facts you have put in this post but wanted to look at them from a 6 year time scale in the same league ..
    .
    .
    .

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  108. 6 years is not knee jerk and are we in a better situation with our squad than when Houllier left.
    The Liverpool way as you put it died when Dalglish left because the 4 managers since have not delivered what we as Liverpool suporters enjoyed under managers from 1959 to 1991 - a regular and sustained challenge for the league.
    Rafa sticks to a formula that is not going to win the league - in 2005 (the hour of our greatest triumph since 1991) when there was a gap in midfield a mile wide crying out for Haman he brought on Smicer to replace Kewell because that was his formulaic response. In 2007 he leaves Crouch on the bench until 15 to go and leaves Bellamy on the bench (a player with pace who would have caused problems for a slow ageing Milan back four) and kept Zendan on the pitch until near the end - I've supported Liverpool for nearly 40 years so I can't be labelled a glory hunter.
    No player can be Gteed firts team football but Riise was our first choice left back, Riera has been injured most of the season and then ignored. Keane took a while to get going started to score and then was dropped and then in and out of the team before being shipped out. Crouch was not fancied by Rafa to play with Torres and was shipped out regardless of the goals he still scored in that season. Xabi had one poor season (again injury plagued) before the Summer persuit of Barry.

    Rafa has had his chance and money (plenty of players have come and gone) it's not knee jerk after 6 years, patience is one thing but sometimes a manager has reached his limit and his tactics and teamtalks don't work any longer and that seems the case with Rafa this season. Maybe his replacement is already at the club as an ambassador(?).

    You keep on chanting Rafa's name every week and maybe 7th will seem like a good position in a couple of seasons - just because someone is given the honour of being manager of Liverpool Football Club does not give them godlike, untouchable status.

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  109. Ah, a flying pig....

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  110. my mistake. I was thinking martin kelly. 

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  111. So you now believe everything you read in the newspapers?
    I thought it was all about 'rejecting biased media hype' and thinking independently!

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  112. <p>Jaimie do you not understand the concept of the "sell to buy" transfer policy?
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>That is RedJohn's point. 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>£0 spent means that the club has bought players with money that it has recouped. This cannot be argued.
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>Do you accept this? 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>Red John isn't trying to say that we haven't spent money to buy players. of course we have. But the only money that has been spend is that which has been generated by sales. 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>Its not hard to understand. I get the impression that you know this very well but just choose to ignore it in order to try and belittle someone else's valid opinion. 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>If all those players had been bought without having to sell everyone our squad would be miles stronger, the point is that this isn't the case. 
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>People aren't deluded. You just don't understand what is being said or choose to twist it to promote your anti Benitez POV.
    </p>

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  113. No Mark, you are wrong, Insua is the perfect example of something that is wrong with Benitez. The lad is p-poor, but Benitez gave him chance after chance, however, a completely different story with Babel, who is also rubbish, but gets no chance what so ever We ended up having to play Agger at left back as the opposition were just lumping the ball to that part of the pitch where Insua should have been, and causing problems for us out of nothing. I know he is young, but you either have it, or you don't, and he doesn't.

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  114. Your talking out of your @rse as per usual. The players you mentioned were all successes apart from Dossena. Keane was a strange one. There was more to it than we know.
    Alonso and Masch in particular have been great successes. Johnson has been excellent for the most part and suffered from a bad knee injury. Don't criticise the defence because we did keep the most clean sheets. Defence is not the problem and we all know Carra had a difficult start which wasn't helped with injuries and off form to Skrtel and Agger.
    Aqualani has been very good in the games he's played and I am not behind Rafa in why he was playing Lucas ahead of him. Or playing Lucas so deep anyway.
    Babel is an enigma. He's a striker in the Henry mode but he'll never be a poacher but I think if he's sold he will be sold for more than we paid for him.
    Riera last season was excellent. He gave us balance which was one of the reasons why we were so good.

    Mark said Spearing was pants. He's played how many games? And against Real he was fantastic for his small time on the pitch and had the Kop singing his name.

    This season can be summed up by having no Alonso and Gerrard off form or injured and Torres injured for too many games. That in my opinion has cost us at least 10 points which would have given us top 4.

    Too many people are too quick to judge.

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  115. No - I do not accept that.  Why?  because it is not true.  The notion that the club has had to seel to buy is nonsense, and there is no evidence to back this up.

    Tell me: who did we sell to have to buy Aquilani and Johnson?  Who did we sell to buy Keane and mascherano?

    It is not asa simple as picking anyplayer we've sold and saying 'yeah, we sold that player for the sole purpose of funding someone else'.

    The idea that we have to sell to buy is not fact.

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  116. Please provide proof of this alleged  'sell to buy' policy. A quote from someone in the hierarchy will do: Hicks/Gillett/Purslow.  If this is in fact a policy that has been enforced, surely there must be some evidence of it, no? Or is it just moire suposition on your part?

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  117. Yes it is a fact jaime hence we have not had a nett outgoing on transfers in the last 2 years. Therefore unless players are sold to create transfer funds then no players can be bought. That is the definition of having to sell players in order to buy new ones.

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  118. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  119. Yossi is poor player? By the way, what is the statistics of Alex Ferguson in his first 6 seaosns in Man Utd? I am keen to know. Mourinho only manage the top team in each league like Porto, Chelsea and Inter. I would keen to know as well whether he can win trophy with team like Lisbon, Villa or Fiorentina.  

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  120. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  121. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  122. No, Mark.  It is NOT a fact!

    Please provide your source for the contention that there has been no net outgoing on transfers over the last 2 years.

    According to the club reports for 2008 and 2009, the total money spent on transfers is as follows:

    2008

    Spent: 69.9m
    Recouped: 40m

    Net spend: 29.9

    2009

    Spent: 38.7m
    Recouped: 45.2m

    Net Spend

    -3.5m

    Total Gross spend: 108.6m
    Recouped: 85m

    Net speed for 2008 + 2009 = 23.6m

    *That* is fact, mark. And as you can see, the notion that there has been 0 net spend over the last 2 years is nonsense.

    Now let me predict your next excuse: 'But we had minues net spend for 2009!'

    So what - we had a 29m net spend for the year before that!  It all balances out - you don't just look at one year's results.

    So - if I recall, you were going to provide evidence for your contention that there was 0 net spend for the last 2 years...

    (Check the reports - they're available online - you will see my figures are correct)

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  123. NB. For accounting purposed, the year runs from 31 July to 31 July, not Sep to May (the season) ir Jan to Jan.

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  124. Jaimie, if you are buying a player of 20 mil you pay an instalment of 5 mil in the first year and later sell the player for 4 mil in the second year. How much you have spent on buying the player? 

    ReplyDelete
  125. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  126. What?! no rimming Martin O Neill and shafting him claiming he should be the next Liverpool boss? Are you ok?

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  127. Your post is a 'delusion brought on by alcohol...Russian vodka <span>poisoned by Chernobyl</span>!' :-P

    ReplyDelete
  128. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  129. Kenny Dalglish with 15 years as manager?

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  130. fredsson - I don't particularly agree with Jamie that M'ON is the man for the job, but I'd far prefer somebody who can show a little emotion for his club over some dour old man who can't even bring himself to crack a smile when his own team scores a goal, instead turning to scribble notes or start berating the defenders!

    It isn't really dignified, it just makes Rafa look like an arrogant sourfaced ponce! (btw, M'ON took over a team far smaller and with far less resources than Liverpool, has spent less money than Rafa but has overtaken us in the league so the status of "underachiever" may need to be reassigned)

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  131. We should have stengthen
    in the summer and with a decent transfer budget plus any raised from
    player sales the current scenario may have been completely different.

    And what's happening currently, we are led to believe that even if players are sold that money won't be there for transfers. I accept that that is conjecture on behalf of the media but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Only time will tell whether or not we spend money in the transfer Market this summer. If we make a significant outlay without recouping equivalent money through player sales I wi stand corrected. Until then both you and I are entitled to our opinions.

    However the fact of the matter is we haven't bought players without them being funded by the sales of others for going on 2 years. If that wasn't the case we would have spent far more.

    I have no idea how you can deny this.

    My only explanation can be that you have alterior motives... :-P

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  132. First of all, if you only paid 5m, then you did not 'buy' a player for 20m did you?  You can only say that *if* the player has a clause in his contract where the 20m will definitely become due regardless of the level of installments.

    So - using your example, you have spent 5m and made a LOSS of 1m.

    Irrespective of the money you recouped on the deal, you still handed over 5m to someone. 

    The key part of the deal is the impact: you made a 1m loss. 

    If we apply this to the Robie Keane situation:

    1. We bought him for 20.
    2. We sold him for 12m (NOT 16m, which is a  myth - if he hadn't been sold to Celtic then it would have been 16m based on appearances)

    3. This means we made a loss of 8m. That is the key figure here.  You can't mask that with lame 'net spend' argument, which is 'but we made 12m back!  We made an 8m loss.  End of story.

    In such deals, you also have to consider the following consequences:

    1. Loss of signing-on fee
    2. Loss benefit to the team because the manager wasted 20m on an unsuitable player.  In other words, if that 20m had been spend wisely, a different player might have had a major impact on the team.

    IF Benitez had spent that 20m on a suitable player, perhaps that player might have had a Torres-like impact, or at least made a huge contribution.  They might have stayed more than 6 months (!), and they might have ben useful to use in the season just finished, especially if that player was a striker.

    Net spend = an easy way to condone mistakes.

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  133. Net spend/profit is THE most important figure for every business in the world. Quite why you're so loathe to accept this I don't know.

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  134. I think you misinterpreted my comment. I was suggesting that any NEW manager would have £0m to spend.

    Although now I feel I should clarify further by saying that the comment was in jest really, obviously we'll have some money to spend, but if a new manager expected to have enough to rehaul the squad in his vision, he will be sorely out of luck.

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  135. I think you misinterpreted my comment. I was suggesting that any NEW manager would have £0m to spend. 
     
    Although now I feel I should clarify further by saying that the comment was in jest really, obviously we'll have some money to spend, but if a new manager expected to have enough to rehaul the squad in his vision, he will be sorely out of luck.

    Don't be so quick to judge Jamie ;)

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  136. That's not exactly what I meant Mark, as stated in my response to that comment (and Jamie's rebuttal) above.

    I do, however, agree with you completely. Giving a manager £300m straight out to spend over one or two seasons (Mourinho) is a lot different to spending a gross of £300m over six years, with £180m of that needing to be recouped at various stages to reach that figure (which I'm sure is overblown, but can't be arsed to go into that).

    Chelsea and Man.U are £700m ish in the hole, for example, and if we for example are around £300m better off than that and the only place that money has gone is player purchases, how can we be expected to compete with any manager? And that's not even taking into account the massive amounts of money that Man.U, in particular, make over us in terms of gate receipts and other earnings...

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  137. "The notion that the club has had to sell to buy is nonsense".

    This seems just silly. Put quite simply, if we didn't HAVE to sell to buy, the club would have £180m ish burning a hole in its pocket right now. Why did we buy Kyrgiakos instead of Dawson and get Maxi on a free? Because we HAD NO MONEY. If a business has no money, the only way it can make money is by selling its assets. Is this not obvious?

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  138. That's not exactly what I meant Mark, as stated in my response to that comment (and Jamie's rebuttal) above.  
     
    I do, however, agree with you completely. Giving a manager £300m straight out to spend over one or two seasons (Mourinho) is a lot different to spending a gross of £300m over six years, with £180m of that needing to be recouped at various stages to reach that figure (which I'm sure is overblown, but can't be arsed to go into that).  
     
    Chelsea and Man.U are £700m ish in the hole, for example, and if we for example are around £300m better off than that and the only place that money has gone is player purchases and wages, how can we be expected to compete with any manager? And that's not even taking into account the massive amounts of money that Man.U, in particular, make over us in terms of gate receipts and other earnings...

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  139. You say (and I agree) that we need just 4-5 players. I think that says it all. After six years at the club he needs almost half a first team. What has he been doing so far?

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  140. Or Jaimie was just stating the obvious. Thought about that before?

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  141. I see what you're saying, but isn't that pre-supposing that the squad *needs* an overhaul?

    I don't agree that it does.  There is a lot of dross fringe players in the squad but our first team has a good spine and a lot of potential.

    We do not need a manager to come in and spend 50m; we need someone who will, first and foremost, come in get the best out o the players we already have.  That is the club's no 1 priority when it comes to appointing a new manager, and that is why Martin O'Neill is highly thought of at the club.

    We need to sign new players, yes, but we do not need to spend ridiculous amounts doing so.  Trim our current squad of deadwood (and lower the wage bill in the process; spend money that *is* available wisely (unlike Benitez), and concntrate on motivating/inspiring the quality players we do have.

    An expensive overhaul is not needed; tweaking, moulding and inspiring is what's needed.

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  142. Wrong. Mourinho also managed lowly Leiria in Portugal and too them to their highest ever league finish (fifth). A Portuguese friend of mine, who isn't exactly a fan of Mourinho simply because he is a Benfica supporter, told me how Jose became the special one. And now I've told you, in short though.

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  143. Wrong. Mourinho also managed lowly Leiria in Portugal and took them to their highest ever league finish (fifth). A Portuguese friend of mine, who isn't exactly a fan of Mourinho simply because he is a Benfica supporter, told me how Jose became the special one. And now I've told you, in short though.

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  144. Jaimie what would MON's record against Benitez be if we just used the EPL data?

    I think MON is a decent manager, but no more than that. He had a good record at Celtic but Gordon Strachan then took over and bettered his record in a shorter time frame - are we saying Gordon Strachan is a better manager than MON?

    The SPL is a very poor league in terms of quality outside of Rangers & Celtic, even those two teams struggle once they reach Europe - MON's record in the ECL when at Celtic was absolutely terrible, just goes to show how large the gulf in class is between the SPL and ECL football.

    If Rafa were to leave I don't know who'd replace him, but I'd hope it's not MON. He's spent a fortune at Aston Villa over the last few years (£88m NET since 2006?) and won...er...the Peace Cup? Lerner has said he's going to have to limit spending from now on so lets see if that's the case, how MON does next season.

    It won't be Mourinho because he won't go anywhere without a substantial amount of money to spend or where he thinks there's an extremely good chance of him being successful given an uneven surface - Chelsea (£500m spent), Inter (Juventus & Milan struggling to recover from the match fixing scandal) and possibly Madrid, who already have a superb team in place.

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  145. Jaimie what would MON's record against Benitez be if we just used the EPL data?

    I think MON is a decent manager, but no more than that. He had a good record at Celtic but Gordon Strachan then took over and bettered his record in a shorter time frame - are we saying Gordon Strachan is a better manager than MON?

    The SPL is a very poor league in terms of quality outside of Rangers & Celtic, even those two teams struggle once they reach Europe - MON's record in the ECL when at Celtic was absolutely terrible, just goes to show how large the gulf in class is between the SPL and ECL football.

    If Rafa were to leave I don't know who'd replace him, but I'd hope it's not MON. He's spent a fortune at Aston Villa over the last few years (£88m NET since 2006?) and won...er...the Peace Cup? Lerner has said he's going to have to limit spending from now on so lets see if that's the case, how MON does next season.

    It won't be Mourinho because he won't go anywhere without a substantial amount of money to spend or where he thinks there's an extremely good chance of him being successful given an uneven surface - Chelsea (£500m spent), Inter (Juventus & Milan struggling to recover from the match fixing scandal) and possibly Madrid, who already have a superb team in place.

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  146. Jaimie what would MON's record against Benitez be if we just used the EPL data?

    I think MON is a decent manager, but no more than that. He had a good record at Celtic but Gordon Strachan then took over and bettered his record in a shorter time frame - are we saying Gordon Strachan is a better manager than MON?

    The SPL is a very poor league in terms of quality outside of Rangers & Celtic, even those two teams struggle once they reach Europe - MON's record in the ECL when at Celtic was absolutely terrible, just goes to show how large the gulf in class is between the SPL and ECL football.

    If Rafa were to leave I don't know who'd replace him, but I'd hope it's not MON. He's spent a fortune at Aston Villa over the last few years (£88m NET since 2006?) and won...er...the Peace Cup? Lerner has said he's going to have to limit spending from now on so lets see if that's the case, how MON does next season.

    It won't be Mourinho because he won't go anywhere without a substantial amount of money to spend or where he thinks there's an extremely good chance of him being successful given an uneven surface - Chelsea (£500m spent), Inter (Juventus & Milan struggling to recover from the match fixing scandal) and possibly Madrid, who already have a superb team in place.

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  147. RedJohn - Let me ask you something: do you concede that in the ordinary course of running a football, players will be bought and sold?

    If so, is it not possible that players can be bought and sold without any external pressure on the manager to 'sell to buy'?

    Liverpool has sold players, but that is normal practice for football clubs. There is no sell-to buy policy in place; there may be a policy that IF a manager sells a player, that money can be iused for further signings, but that is very different to a sell-to buy policy.  That is a sell-then-benefit from the proceeds policy.

    The fact that we have no money to spend does not mean there is a sell to buy policy; it simply means that we have no money left.

    take last summer for example:

    We sold Alonso for 30m; we bought Aquilani and Johnson.  Benitez also demanded that money that was *set aside for transfers that summer* be used to renew the contracts of players.  It was - Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt and Agger all had their contracts renewed.  Benitez made that choice.  he *could* have used that money to buy playrs but he *chose* to spend it on player contract renewals.

    What about the summer before that: who did we have to sell to fund the purchase of Robbie Keane?  Did we have to sell Keane after 6 months as part of this alleged 'sell to buy policy'? of course not.  We sold him because Benitez made a monumental mistake signing him, and then proceeded to treat him like dirt for 6 months.

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  148. Benitez also demanded that money that was *set aside for transfers that summer* be used to renew the contracts of players.  It was - Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt and Agger all had their contracts renewed.  Benitez made that choice.  he *could* have used that money to buy playrs but he *chose* to spend it on player contract renewals.  

    What's your source on this ?

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  149. I don't think so. If I had a business and I sold a machine for 10m added another 10m because my company made some profit and bought a machine for 20m, then there should be a machine worth 20m somewhere in my business, right. And we had to pay the full 20m for it. It surely is great that we recouped 10m by selling the old machine but still we have a better machine now. So, the gross spent should be the worth of the team on the pitch.

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  150. How do you read that into Gaga's post? You make me kind of envious, because I would like to have some of whatever you take.

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  151. Yeah, hopefully Rafa finally gets some cash to spend so he can buy us Torres, Reina, Mascherano, Johnson, Aquilani, Alonso, Kuyt, Babel, Agger, Skrtl, Reira, Lucas, N'Gog, Keane, erm, oh.

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  152. <span>In August 2009, when asked about the summer transfer spending, Christian Purslow stated:

    <span>“We’ve spent about £20 million more than we’ve generated...we’ve spent £20 million and that’s real money. There are lots of costs associated with buying players and extending players that <span>all go into transfer funds</span>.”</span></span>

    I have also had this confirmed by one of my sources at the club (who is very high-up in the heirarchy)

    re my sources at the club: whether people believe me or not is up to them.  I know it's true so that's good enough for me.  Furthermore, if you look back over everything I've written on the site in the last 3 years, you will see many examples of things that I've argued that came true.  Some of that was due to inside information, especially the financial stuff.

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  153. I was going to respond to Jamie but I think I'll stick with you JR, seems fitting.

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  154. Purslow also confirmed this in an interview with Spirit of Shankly.

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  155. Jaimie you've got no way of proving Benitez "chose" to spend his transfer kitty on contracts instead of buying new players, that's completely your opinion and your opinion only.

    A manager shouldnt be forced (in any case) to choose between keeping the good players he's got over strengthening the team, all you've proved with your comment is how much of an awful position the Owners have left us in.

    What are you proposing Jaimie? That Benitez should have said "no" to getting Agger, Reina, Gerrard & Torres on extended contracts and instead spent the few million (which it would have been) on a new squad addition? What a proposterous notion.

    He didn't spend his transfer money on renewing contracts, that's a fallacy, renewing the contracts of players happen every season depending on when those players joined to Club, we may have used money for transfers to renew contracts but it certainly wasn't Benitez' decision!

    He didn't treat Keane like dirt either, he played Keane where he saw fit, how much playing time did 'Arry give him at Spurs? And when he did play him where did he play...left wing.

    As for your NET spend comment about 2009 Jaimie, the point is when you finish 2nd in the EPL and amass your largest ever points tally you expect to strengthen, instead the Owners withdrew Benitez's transfer funds midway through the summer and he ended up turning a profit. That is exactly what Benitez told Paul Tomkins when the two met in October, the money that was going to be used to strengthen the team after Alonso's departure was instead used for "business needs" i.e. servicing debts.

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  156. JK can you stop labelling people as part of the pro Rafa briagde just because they disagree with your viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with supporting the manager. I have my issues with Rafa, he has made mistakes, and I would like to see us play better football, but until he is sacked or he leaves then i will support him as he is part of club.  That doesn't mean I'm "brainwashed" as you like to make out, I am not some sort of drone, I make my own mind up. As I said I don't always agree with Rafa but he is still the manager. The whole point of supporting your team is that you support them through the bad times as well as the good. What "we're" doing at the moment; putting everyone in the pro or anti Rafa camps is ridiculous, It needs to stop. He gets enough crap from the London-centric and Man Utd loving media without having his own fans on his back to.

    I'm afraid, JK you are the biggest instigator of it. We all know you don't want Rafa at the club, but please for the love of god, stop labelling people as the pro-Rafa brigade just because the disagree with your view. Its childlike, like name calling in the play ground.  Someone disagrees with you call them pro-Rafa to belittle what they say; this is not how rational adults debate.

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  157. Fair enough, but that's one of the reasons why I don't think Rafa has done such a bad job. This season has been a shocker, admittedly, but if a manager you have never wanted at the club has built a team that, in your words, needs but "tweaking" to win the league, do you think he really deserves the stick you give him?

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  158. Gary - if you get offended by the label 'pro-benitez' then, with respect, that's your problem.  Calling someone part of the 'pro-Benitez brigade' is not insulting.  if you support Benitez then you are, in fact, pro-Benitez.  Why should that be insulting if you support the man?!

    I get called anti-benitez every day, and variations thereof.  i don't take it personally - I do not support Benitez, therefore I *am* , by definition, anti-Benitez.

    And your contention that I label people pro-benitez just because they disagree with me is wrong.  Obviously, if I am against him and I'm debating with someone who is for him, then there is going to be conflict.

    I never used to label in people that way but people have bombarded me with such labels so now everyone is fair game.  if people can't hack it, they shouldn't dish it out.

    Labelling of others of human nature; it is not childish. In the last election, people were pro-tory or anti-tory; if you I got into a debate with someone and labelled them pro-tory because of a view they held, would that be insulting and child-like?! NO.  Not in the slightest.  It's stating a non-derogatory fact.

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  159. Gary - if you get offended by the label 'pro-benitez' then, with respect, that's your problem.  Calling someone part of the 'pro-Benitez brigade' is not insulting.  if you support Benitez then you are, in fact, pro-Benitez.  Why should that be belitting or insulting if you support the man?!
     
    I get called anti-benitez every day, and variations thereof.  i don't take it personally - I do not support Benitez, therefore I *am* , by definition, anti-Benitez.  
     
    And your contention that I label people pro-benitez just because they disagree with me is wrong.  Obviously, if I am against him and I'm debating with someone who is for him, then there is going to be conflict.  

    Labelling of others is human nature; it is not childish. In the last election, people were pro-tory or anti-tory; if you I got into a debate with someone and labelled them pro-tory because of a view they held, would that be insulting and child-like?!  NO.  Not in the slightest.  It's stating a non-derogatory fact.

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  160. Anyone cam make statistics show whatever they want them to say Jamie, your attack on Benitez and the stats you have provided actually show what a good manager he is considering the pittance he has had to spend(net spend) in the last three seasons.I actually thought good riddance to benitez a couple of weeks ago, on deeper reflection i can see what a brilliant job he has done.
    When we are taken over buy someone with a bit of money to invest and we can afford a squad on the same par as this years top 6 thats when i`ll make my judgment on Benitez, till then i suggest we all pull together and make it un-comfortable for the two cowboys in an attempt to speed up the sale.

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  161. So i criticise the writer & u delete my post!??

    Keep Rafa 

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  162. I didn't say anything about it being insulting, I just don't like it.  By labelling people you are presuming a one dimensional character - this person disgaree with me so he is pro-rafa. Its ridiculous. And childish. I like Rafa but there are also things that annoy me. Where does that put me?Am i part pro, part anti. No, I'm just a fan with my own opinion. As for your policitical analogy, those people are childish too. A proper debate is about the facts. Saying someone is pro-rafa and therefore blinded or brainwashed is not rational debate. It goes both ways mate. i don't like people being labelled anti-Rafa either.

    All we are doing at the moment is causing a split amongst the fans. The one time the club needs the full support of the fans and we're all bickering about being pro or anti rafa. At the end of the day your shouting or your dislike of him is not going to get him sacked or make him walk. That is his decision or the boards. So lets forget about being pro or anti Rafa, enjoy the world cup and see who's in charge next season. If it is Rafa lets show him that we're behind him and the club. If it's someone else then its someone else. but lets stop the bloody bickering,

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  163. ruderance - Please explain with examples how my stat comparison is an attack on Benitez.  Please illustrate how the posting of factual figures that other fans find illuninating (without editorial comment+ = an attack on Benitez.

    It doesn't at all.  Conversely, it shows that despite the fact I want him to leave, I still fair.  Why would I post stuff that puts Benitez in a positive light if I was trying to attack him?!

    Dosn't really make sense, does it?

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  164. I see your point, gary. Re bickering - i think it's fair to say that all the proper bickering/insults/abuse is directed one way: at me.  All I ever do in the articles I post is state my opinion on LFC, and for that I get untold abuse, both here and on other LFC sites.  Do I ever respond in kind? No.  Never.  I don't call people names, or tell them f**k off etc.  The most I say is to call something someone said 'nonsense'.  If the worst label I throw out 'pro-Benitez', I think that's doing pretty well.

    Not that I care about the abuse.  I find it extremely funny to be honest.  Some of the stuff people come out with is hilarious :)   Alas, most of it never sees the light of day as it's automatically deleted by the comment software.  Today alone, over 200 posts have been deleted as a result of people just slagging me off for posting my opinion.

    But yes, I see your point.  I shall endeavour to decrease the frequency with which I label people pro-Benitez.

    Now, don't you have 'Benitez is our saviour' prayer meeting to attend or something ;)

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  165. I really hope that's not the case. I have many friends who support Villa and even they're not sure about him. They believe that he has no plan B, he plays very direct football, he doesn't utliise his squad. They believe that he isn't that strong tactically. These are people who are season ticket holders watching Villa every week and despite what MON has done at Villa in the last few years they're not enitirely happy with him. It would be a mistake to bring in MON. There are better managers out there.

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  166. Although the article itself is completely neutral and factual, your responses in the thread are very much anti-Rafa, so it is an attack on him.

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  167. My responses in the thread do not make the original article an attack on Benitez at all.  My opinion on him remains consistent, therefore whatever thread I post in will contain the same views.  Furtnermore, my comments do not constitute an attack - I raise legitimate points about why he should leave *when asked*.

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  168. Come on JK we're not stupid. You write these articles to set up the "attack" on Rafa, Why else would you be compelled to write an article about his stats. You know that people will disagree, discuss and debate it, and that sets it up nicely for you. You know that people read the comments as well as the article.

    Don't get me wrong, you have always been consistent with your views. Even when we were playing well last season and finshed 2nd you had the same view and for that I can only commend you. You've remained honest to your stance, and that is much better than the fickle fans who loved Rafa last year and now want him out.

    And by the way it was a very good "Rafa is god" prayer meeting today. You should come one day.

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  169. Do you mean the Christian Purslow-minutes ? Nothing in there about Rafa choosing to use the money to renew contracts etc.However,he states that Rafa had funds i January but chose not to use them then.

    http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/Minutes-from-Christian-Purslow-and-SOS-Meeting.html

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  170. Thanks Jaimie for providing stats, good job.

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  171. Haha.  True - I have no idea how Guest made the stadium connection there!

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  172. Thank you for providing data, Jaimie. Good job.

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  173. It's his total managerial career, not just with LFC.  So it includes Blackburn, Newcastle and Celtic.

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  174. Seconded :-)

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  175. Well done Rafa is right. love how when its positive for Rafa there are no conclusions drawn by the author from the stats. When its negative ffor the manager then we get conclusions and inferences galore. I say u have done reasonably well RB in the context of the current goings on at the club.

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  176. My pleasure.

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  177. <p>Jamie,
    </p><p>Thanks for the efforts.
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>In fairness to strikers in difficult league, the European golden boot award came with different coefficient for different league.
    </p><p> 
    </p><p>So, you need to consider adding in coefficient if you want to include all games from different county or even different league from same country as well.

    </p><p> 
    </p><p>The fairest comparison will be games from the same league and same country, then there will be no dispute on the their achievement.</p>

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  178. Either compare Rafa's first 6 years with AF's 1st 6 years, or compare it vis a vis transfer spends.  There are a lot of apples vs oranges comparisons.  And I dare say that Rafa's last 6 season record is much better than Arsene, whom the press loves a lot more (win %, 1 Champs League, 1 FA, higher league placings for more seasons)

    And I do wonder who can do a better job than Rafa, given the circumstance.  MoN, David M????  I highly doubt it.  They won't even have a clue how to handle a European squad. Think back on the season that Everton played in europe.  They were nearly relegated in the Premier League

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  179. "If we apply this to the Robie Keane situation:  
     
    1. We bought him for 20.  
    2. We sold him for 12m (NOT 16m, which is a  myth - if he hadn't been sold to Celtic then it would have been 16m based on appearances) "
    Doubt the above , because ive been told there is £17m on the books already for Keane , so if you can prove the £12m would be interesting.Anyway Keane wasn't sold to Celtic as you say we out on £4m because he went to Celtic on loan , i doubt very much the club wouldn't see this as appearances anyway and who's to say if so , Keane wont be back next season to play for spurs .Seems the accusations you put at us for supporting our Manager you just do your self just suit your own agenda , as you said already why would you post Rafa in a good light.

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  180. There is not '17m on the books already for Keane'. There would be no way of knowing the specific figure anyway as all sales are lumped into one total figure.

    What we DO know for a fact is this:  the club's 2008 report states that the club received 12.8 for Keane and Finnan combined in transfer fees.


    SEE ATTACHED IMAGE FOR PROOF OF THIS

    Finnan's fee was undislosed, but is believed to be in the region of 2m.  So if we put it *very* conservatively at 1m, that means we potentiall received only 11.8m for Keane, which equals an 8m loss.

    In reality, the fee for Finna i was almost certainly more than 1m, so the loss on Keane was probably more.

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  181. Great Work Mate, Thanks

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  182. So basically I'll take it £12m seems a realistic figure , but say the club hasn't recovered any more money since 2008 can't be accurate can it , and that there's no chance we can still re-coup a few more million to make a small loss or optimistically loss .


    I still believe a most we will be looking at a loss of £3m if not less.

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  183. Remember at the time i was told the club could be realistically looking at a £3-4m loss on Keane maximum but there was a good chance we would get all our money back as the situation spurs were in at the time had helped us structure the deal in that way .
    Was told that once spurs stayed up we were guaranteed another £4m bringing the figure i was told up to £16m.
    Yes Rafa want to sell Keane but i was told spurs approached us for Keane back.

    1.Spurs position in the table.
    2.Defoe been injured.

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  184. RC - how many times?  if it is NOT in the accounts then it is not there!  The loss on Keane is mentioned again in the 2009 report; there is no mention or record of any further money recouped on the player.  The loss on Keane is - at a minumum - 8m.  Just because you don't want it to be doesn't mean it isn't.

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  185. Fair enough .... but will look into , sure i was told thee was a better overall figure in the accounts...


    anyway relax , only asking you a few questions and never abusive towards you.

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  186. Hi Jaimie,

    Just wondered whether the reason you didn't want to dig those figures out yourself is that MON’s win ratio at Villa is 42% compared to 57% for Benitez? MON’s win record is actually poorer than Huges at Blackburn (43%)

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  187. That's great, but you're wrong.

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  188. Marvellous. But you haven't answered his point at all. Can't be bothered...or just can't?

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  189. Alex Ferguson didnt inherit a champions league side. Why sack Benitez when all you'll have to do is dole out more cash to get rid of him? Cash you dont have! You need about 8 new players, plain and simple, no manager would have got any more out of that shower of morons than what the Fat Spanish Waiter did!

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  190. Thid Jamie guy is an damm ass

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  191. This Jamie guy is hater

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  192. Do the Stat to reflect management at Premiership level only. I doubt MON can be in the top 10

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