10/01/2009 06:30:00 pm

REVEALED: The ultimate proof that Fernando Torres is a more effective attacking player than Wayne Rooney

There has been a lot of discussion recently over the individual merits of Fernando Torres and Wayne Rooney. Both have had great starts to the new season, and both are vitally important to their respective clubs...but who is the better player? It's a tough question to answer objectively, but the following in-depth, objective analysis shows quite clearly that Torres is the more consistently effective performer.

I have analysed the appearance/goals statistics of both player since the 2007/08 season. Given the fact this was Torres’ first season in the Premiership, it is only fair that the comparison starts there.

I have only included competitive games in this analysis, i.e.

Premiership
Champions League
FA Cup
Carling Cup

I obtained the statistics from the following sources:

LFC History
Soccernet
Anfield Online
Blog United (in the interests of fairness, I used a United stat site for most of Rooney’s figures)
Liverpool FC.tv
ManUnited.com

A quick note before I beging: What is the primary goal of an attacking player? It is to score and create goals. Thus, when measuring the specific, measurable effectiveness of an attacking player, goals/assists stats are clearly the most important thing to consider. Attacking players must defend from the front too but their PRIMARY PURPOSE is to score and create goals.

FERNANDO TORRES

2007-08

Starts – 35 / Sub - 9
Minutes on pitch - 3248
Goals - 33 / Assists - 4
Shots on goal – 72
Fouls suffered – 78
Goals per minute - 1 every 98 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 1.4 games

2008-09

Starts – 32 / Sub – 6
Minutes on pitch - 2786
Goals - 17 / Assists - 5
Shots on goal – 62
Fouls suffered – 50
Goals per minute – 1 every 163 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 2.2 games

2009-10

Starts – 9 / Sub – 0
Minutes on pitch - 765
Goals – 8 / Assists – 1
Shots on goal – 17
Fouls suffered – 16
Goals per minute - 1 every 95 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 1.1 games

TORRES TOTALS

Starts – 76 / Sub - 15
Minutes on pitch - 6800
Goals – 58 / Assists - 10
Shots on goal – 158
Fouls suffered – 144

Goals per minute - 1 every 117 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 1.5 games
Creative ratio by minute - Goal scored/created every 100 minutes
Creative ratio per game – 1 Goal scored/created every 1.3 games

WAYNE ROONEY

2007-08

Starts – 38 / Sub - 4
Minutes on pitch - 3310
Goals – 18 / Assists – 14
Shots on goal – 77
Fouls suffered – 24
Goals per minute - 1 every 183 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 2.3 games

2008-09

Starts – 39 starts / Sub – 10 sub
Minutes on pitch - 3537
Goals – 17 / Assists – 12
Shots on goal – 56
Fouls Suffered – 39
Goals per minute – 1 every 208 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 2.8 games

2009-10

Starts – 9 / Sub - 0
Minutes on pitch - 752
Goals – 6 / Assists – 0
Shots on goal – 15
Fouls suffered – 4
Goals per minute - 1 every 125 minutes
Goals per game – 1 every 1.5 games

ROONEY TOTALS

Starts – 86 / Sub - 14
Minutes on pitch - 7599
Goals - 41 / Assists - 26
Shots on goal – 148
Fouls suffered – 67

Goals per minute – 1 every 185 minutes
Goals per game – One every 2.4 games
Creative ratio by minute - Goal scored/created every 113 minutes
Creative ratio per game – Goal scored/created every 1.5 games

SIDE BY SIDE - Totals: 2007-present


ST

SB

M

G

A

GPM

GPG

CRPM

CRPG

T

76

15

6800

58

10

1/117

1/1.5

1/100

1/1.3

R

86

14

7599

41

26

1/185

1/2.4

1/113

1/1.5












SIDE BY SIDE - Goals per game/goals per minute: 2007-present


GPM 07

GPM 08

GPM

09

GPG 07

GPG 08

GPG 09

T

1/98

1/163

1/95

1/1.4

1/2.2

1/1.1

R

1/183

1/208

1/125

1/2.3

1/2.8

1/1.5


T=Torres
R=Rooney
ST = Starts
SB = Sub
G = Goals
A = Assists
GPM – Goals per minutes
GPG – Goals per game
CRPM – Creative ratio per minute
CRPG – Creative ratio per game


ANALYSIS

* Torres scored more goals than Rooney despite having fewer minutes on the pitch.

* Torres’ goals per game/goals minutes ratio is far superior to Rooney’s every season.

* Despite Torres being injured during the 2008/09 season and playing less games, his GPG and GPM ratios are still superior to Rooney’s.

* Rooney has a higher assist ratio BUT Torres still comes out on top when it comes to overall creative impact: (Torres: 68 goals scored/created – Rooney: 67 goals scored/created)

* Despite being fouled more than twice as much than Rooney, Torres still scored more goals.

I would argue that the above statistics irrefutably prove that Fernando Torres is a more effective attacking player than Wayne Rooney.

Am I wrong?







103 Comments :

Carlj said...

Excellent statistical analysis and valid conclusions drawn!

Zulu said...

Wayne Rooney won everything AND THAT'S A FACT !!!!!!!!
El Nino ??????????

MANC99 said...

You tit!!! Rooney was played on the left wing for the past two seasons, so your 'findings' are a left winger against a striker! Your typical red tinted glasses clearly are clouding your judgement.

Sir Alex said...

Thanks for this, now can you put one up comparing their Medals? Rooney played as a left winger and is not a goal scorer! Your article is a waste of time. Chin up though kid! Can't get worse than Tuesday night.......Can it!?!? Times are tough over there, and Chelsea will exploit the Alonso sized gap in the middle. Poor old Rafa, time to go? The rest of the premier league certainly hope not!!!!!!

Guest said...

They're completely different players, as an out-and-out striker Torres is always going to score more goals than someone like Rooney, who has played in a much more withdrawn/wide role prior to this season. 

Two great players though.

Dule said...

Its funny how you choose to only criticise some from our great team.

KBill76 said...

Won everything did he...Barca might have something to say about that or do you not remember the tactical ineptitude you displayed in the CL final? Chelsea & Liverpool in seasons past had shown how to disrupt and beat Barca yet Fergie arrogantly and wrongly believes Utd can play Barca at their own game. Still can't believe how little flack Fergie got for that debacle.. 

Interesting analysis but have to concede to the Manc posters that Rooney's only just started being used as a central striker so not really a valid comparison.. will be interesting to see the same breakdown by the end of this season though.

Certainly know who I'd rather have... where's the column for inane fouls, abusive language and being a potato headed liability? 

Maverick said...

Really unfair to compare these 2.. Isnt'it? Torres has never had to play in unfamiliar positions like winger etc which has been the case many times with Rooney. maybe we should see how this season spans out if indeed he is played as an out and out striker as has been talked about

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I don't think it's unfair to compare them.  Rooney hasn't *always* played on the left since 2007.  And even when he does staryt from the left, he doesn't stay stuck on the left flank for 90 minutes.

As I said in the post, there have been plenty of other sites comparing the two recently,; I've head Man U fans arguing that Rooney is better than Torres.  it's not really about position, it;s about who is the most effective attacking player.  Rooney and Torres operate in the same areas, thus the comparison is valid. In my opinion, of course.

Guest said...

Correct , Torres is the better striker , Faster,Better header,Scores more,More skill

Scott said...

Dimitar Berbatov was our best player last night and made a massive impact to how we played from the moment he came on. He didn't get any goals and didn't get any assists.

Statistics don't prove how 'effective' a player is. Berbatov was our most effective player last night but there are no stats to prove it.

Essentially though, Rooney spent much of last season playing on the left, so your argument fell apart before it even began. Nice try though. 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

When it comes to objectively asssessing the specific, measurable impact of a player, statistics are the only fair way to do it. Statistics cannot be questioned.  For example, Torres has scored 8 goals this season.  That is a fact, and it cannot be refuted. The same goes for other stats.

When it comes to assessing how effective sa player is, using stats that focus on the player's primary purpose is the only credible way to do it.

What is the alternative? Conducting a poll amongst fans asking 'who is more effecgtive'?!

No. That is far too subjective, and the results would be meaingless.

And re Berbatov - a player's effectiveness cannot be judged on the basis of one game, so that particular argument has no weight.

There has to be a way to judge the effectiveness of players accurately, and as I said above, the best avaialble way to achieve that is to use factual statistics.

This is obvious though, and most of the world's sports and industries use this method to assess effectiveness of x, y and z.  The same should (and does) apply to football.

Guest said...

So ...er.. last year we weren't a two man team afterall then!

MN said...

Why is it that Rooney is lauded for his contributions as a striker played on the left but Dirk Kuyt is derided on this site by many, including the Editor, despite scoring 12 league goals last season plus many assists -  (without even going into his Champs Lge stats) as a striker played on the right? I'm sure Rooney didn't get many more in the league, if at all.

Jevon Johnson said...

Torres is in a different class.

Guest said...

Kbill did man utd not beat barcelona in the semi's in 2008 u wank

jIM said...

So this being Liverpool-kop.com has nothing to do with it? What about the Trophies that Wayne has picked up, tahts what REALLY matters!!!!! Champions!!!

Gu said...

Jamie was talking about effectiveness as an individual. So what if Rooney had won everything (he doesn't), it doesn't prove that he is more effective than torres as an individual. He won the trophies because of the whole team, not just by himself. So what you commenting now doesn't make sense at all. 

From what you are saying, winning more trophies would determine who is more effective. Traore has a champion league medal and Insua has none. So that means Traore is more effective than Insua?? 

Anfeild Singh said...

I think this is a silly comparison. Torres is a better striker than Rooney thats a fact. But what rooney offers United is everything, as a liverpool fan, i rate rooney'z play-making, determination, goal scoring and mentallity.

But Torres is clearly the best striker in the world, full stop.

Off the topic: If i see Lucas's face again, i might kill myself!

Ted said...

As far as Im concerned Wayne Rooney is a match winner and a trophy winner, Torres is barely one of these!

Wayne Rooney has won SEVERAL premier league titles, won the champs league and is ENGLISH.

ROONEY will NEVER leave Manchester United, Torres on the other hand will not put up with contending for the FA and MICKEY MOUSE cup for long!!!!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

There you go:

A Red said...

I don't want to sound like a fawning, drooling fan, but for Torres I can make an exception... So, In my view, this is a no-brainer... Torres is light-years ahead of the likes of Rooney, Drogba,etc  and certainly more classy on and off the pitch. He can easily be the first choice striker for any club in the world!

Anfeild Singh said...

hahaha.....Thanks alot Jaime!! Im gunna get the rope and chair now!!!

Ted dont talk sh*T, torres not a match winner????show's you nothing.

Rooney is a great all round player. But if we talk about strikers, there is no1 better than Torres.

N0bber said...

I think this guys nick has the "W" and the "K"  Get a job wearing a suit in a geography class sunshine..Torres is quality but without a quality team, he wont go far with 'pool - fact

Kronic said...

Can i tell u something.. first off all Torres is Liverpools best player by far... second off all Rooney was behind ronaldo.. so why dont u compare ronaldo and torres not rooney.. because you want to compare the two best players from both teams then ronaldo and torres is a much better match... second off all.. look at rooney now he has scored 6 goals in the premier league now that ronaldo has gone... so your observation and analysis is stupid

Guest said...

The way you try and dismiss Rooney's assists is daft. What the hell is "overall creative impact" anyway, other a blatant attempt to try and make goals compensate for a lack of creativity?

DW said...

Leave it to a scouser to go dork it up with some BS comparison.  Rooney and United are clearly the better team- obvious.  Rooney wins trophies. FACT.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Overall creative impact (i.e. specific, measurable impact)  = Goals + Assists.

Anfeild Singh said...

KRONIC - Compare who u want against Torres, as a striker he cant be touched, do you agree yes or no? If you would rather have ronaldo or rooney in replace of Torres upfront, then there is no point in you being in this forum!

If I wanted a Wing player, then yes i would pik Ronaldo over torres, but NOT as a striker.

Laddoo Singh said...

i never doubted that TORRES is the best in the world, but football is not a one man show, you need to have talented player all over the pitch not only attackers.

i only see a change in manager happen to really think about winning the league. Till we'll have donkey like Lucas in the team, we'll not progress

Anfeild Singh said...

Kiddha Laddoo, totally agree with everything u said, we haven't got enough depth in our squad.Every1 no's if u stop Stevie and Torres, u've beaten liverpool, were to predictable!!

N thankgod u share my pain, Lucas is the worst player i've ever seen, i'd rather have J. spearing or plessis in the middle than that rabbit in headlights!!!

Brendan said...

i love stats, proves the point well

there is also the unquanitfiable...defences tend to double up on torres...despite this he still scores, i doubt rooney would score as much in those circumstances, also when a defence doubles up it frees other attackers to score if torres does not.

Brendan said...

erm...wrong! we have seven players in the goals this season...plenty of others are sharing the burden

Brendan said...

winnning goal in the euro championships?????!!!!!

Brendan said...

what? united fans are delighted to bleat on about ronaldo scoring 40 from the right wing then you use it as an excuse for rooney...how many goals did gerrard score and create when he was played out of position on the right wing? more than rooney.

JD said...

<span style="cursor: pointer;">Jaimie Kanwar</span> you have it all wrong. Stats don't prove anything you are saying.
You say it is an objective method of comparing the 2, well, sure, but these are only 2 small stats. Why don't you access ProZone and look at the amount of running, tackles made & percentage success, passing, short passing, long passing, successrates on these, shooting on target, shooting off target, shooting success from distance, fouls, assists, dribble success rate and more that I can't think of from the top of my head.
Why don't you? well, I guess because either you can't, or, you fully well know Rooney would be dominating the stats as everyone knows he is a much more complete footballer for a team than Torres is, however, I would conceed Torres is a better clinical striker of the ball at this time. I think Rooney will improve on this however.

guess who said...

u are such a jackass. Didnt Unite beat Barca the season before in the semis?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Oh, I forgot! When people examine the effectiveness of an attacking player they always look at how many miles they ran each game or how how many short-passes were completed.

Get a grip! The things you mention are not relevant to the notion of specific, measurable creative impact.

What is the main thing Ian Rush is remembered for?  How many miles he ran per game?!  is this what fans enthuse about when they discuss Rush?  Do people rush to youtue to find videos of Ian Rush's short-passes?!

No. First and foremost, people remember how many goals he scored for Liverpool. Why? Because he is a striker and it is his job to SCORE and CREATE goals.  it is not to rack up as many fouls/short passes as possible.

The same goes for any attacking player, and history records their achievements in the same way.  For any attacking player, the very first stats you get are goals/assists, and that is again because an attacking player's primary purpose is to score/create goals.

Most of the things you mention are IRRELEVANT to the question of how effective an attacking player is.

What matters is specific, measurable creative impact, and that means:

Goals
Assists
Shots on target
Goals/assists per game
Goals/assists per minute

End of story.

Red NINJA said...

Hi all - United fan here.

I thought that this was an interesting spot of analysis.  Obviously, you can make numbers look however you want, but facts are facts - based on the numbers presented, Torres has contributed more offensively than Rooney in the time period specified.  I figured that it'd be very close (with Torres having the advantage of goals but Rooney with the advantage of assists).  Yes, there is a lot of grey area (as with any analysis that isn't strict apples-to-apples) - great point by Manc99 and great counterpoint by Brendan.  I certainly agree with the notion of taking Rooney's numbers as a striker vice a winger versus Torres' numbers - I believe that the average numbers might be even closer than the smaller margin presented.

That being said, I'd be curious as to a follow up based on JD's thought - ProZone does have a lot more analysis and hard stats and it'd be interesting to see how the two compare in some of the metrics that they use.  Yes, an offensive player's primary goal is to score and contribute to goals - but there are a lot of other aspects of the game that contribute (for example, what of the pass two before the goal?).  There is certainly no accepted metric of understanding the magnitude of those efforts.

Again, I have to say that it was interesting to bring these numbers together.  I will admit, however, that the title of the post is awfully misleading and is certainly contributing to the venom being spewed by my fellow United fans.  A different of 13 in the CRPM metric is very small - might even be within statistical noise.

Cheers.

Guest said...

That was a totally different Barcelona.  Pep wasn't even in charge yet.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Great points, Red Ninja.  I agree that there are other stats out there that might give a more rounded picture, but the thing is, where do you stop?  If I had included another 20 different stats there would be someone coming on here saying ' but what about the different weather patterns' or 'what about what the players eat for breakfast'  or 'the impact of the referee's aftershave on a player's concentration (!).

You have to draw the line somewhere, and the stats I've chosen are clearly the most relevant when it comes to answering the question 'who is the most effective attacking player'.

In answering that question, what holds more weight: a player's goals per minute ratio or how many tackles they put in each game?  A player's assist ratio or how many miles were run per game?

I'm not denigrating Rooney here, just trying to answer the question objectively, and the results are clear: Torres is more consistently effective than Rooney.

Having said that, I'm sure Rooney excels in other areas such as tackling, tracking back, winning second balls etc.  He may even surpass Torres this season in his straight attacking role.  Who knows? We'll have to wait and see.

Guest said...

Good to see you don't have an agenda aginst lucas or anything

Guest said...

Good to see you don't have an agenda against lucas or anything.

Rax said...

A player's efectiveness can be based on one game, if you're only talking about that one game, which the post indicated.  "Berbatov was our most effective player last night".
Equally, purely basing your viewpoint on statistics alone never tells the whole story, as most football fans know.  As MN highlights (below), Kuyt has 4 goals and 2 assists from 725mins on the pitch, against Gerrard's 3 goals and 3 assists from 800mins on the pitch this season.  By your reckoning Jaimie, Dirk Kuyt is a more effective player than Steven Gerrard.

JD said...

"What matters is specific, measurable creative impact, and that means:  
 
Goals  
Assists  
Shots on target  
Goals/assists per game  
Goals/assists per minute"

Good grief. You start the entire topic with the notion that Torres is the more effective attacking player yet completely dismiss any other quantifyable statistic where Rooney is likely better. Nevermind what the player does OFF the ball, or decision making. You can't quantify stats to prove anything other than your own bias.

The fact you continually ignore other stats, and lets face it, reality, to prove such a point is pretty desperate.

All you (weakly) prove is that Torres is a better striker, fine I don't think many people would disagree with ya on that, but seeing as we are in the topic of football, let's keep it football related shall we? Choosing to ignore how a player contributes in other departments is just plain blindness.
One of these players is priceless, the other is Torres.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yes, when it comes to creative impact per minute, Kuyt has been more effective than Gerrard; he is not a more effective player OVERALL.  That is a different story.  I am only focusing on specific, measurable creative impact, and on that basis, Kuyt has been more effective than Gerrard so far. 

Having said that, it's not really a worthwhile comparison because both have scored/created the same amount of goals: 6.  Goals per minutes is not the only criterion at play here.  I'm sure that if you examined all the games this season using the criteria I have in the article (ST, SB, GPG, GPM etc), it would be Gerrard who is more effective from a creative standpoint.

Also, a more more accurate picture can gained over the course of a season, which is why I've examined two full seasons, not just 7 or 8 games.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I've responded to your points already.  You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that a stiker's primary purpose is to score and create goals, thus when analysing how effective they are, anything that directly pertains to the their primary purpose is all important.

What strikers do off the ball is important, yes.  it is NOT as important as what they do WITH the ball.  That is why the most important criteria for judging the effectiveness of a creative player are goals/assists/goals per game, goals per minute/shots on target etc.

This is irrefutable, but if you want to argue against reality, go ahead ;)

Chris said...

The stats are conclusive in terms of goals scored and so on. However, the fact remains they are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLAYERS.

If you want to use the word EFFECTIVE, then you would not only talk about goals. You would look at how many chances and goals they directly and indirectly create and assist.

Also, you could go further and look at how many POINTS they have directly and indirectly earned their team through their individual play.

All in all, the facts can be interpreted different and no 'facts' prove much, they simply add weight to an opinion whcih is what football is at the end of the day.

Anyway, do you think Rooney or United would be bothered about these stats considering these goals Rooney has got has contributed to a hat trick of Premier League titles and a CL whereas Torres' amount to NOTHING?

Both great players who would probably be the most lethal attack in the world: Rooney, Torres, Messi. IMAGINE.

JD said...

Irrefutable? You write for this blog and you have childish/arrogant comments such as that? wow.
"it is NOT as important as what they do WITH the ball."
Contradicts choosing to ignore statistics which record what they do WITH the ball.
But what reality are you on that ignores what they do off the ball? It's extremely important. If Torres is forever in the backpocket of a class defender, he's as good as a sunday league striker.

Rooney can contribute very well as a striker, as well as a link up player, as well as a wide player, as well as pressuring people on the ball, decision making, counter attacking and his striking isn't too bad but it's forever improving as it comes in spurts. But noooo, you cling to the notion that goal/assissts is far superior to all of these qualitys!

What reality are you on?
Rooney is more than a striker, Torres is JUST a striker. By your own logic, Kuyt is superior to Gerrard in the form of those stats, but, you will counter that by saying it's not Gerrards job to be an effective striker? hahaha

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Jaimie Kanwar said...

You just don't get the finer nuances of the argument I'm trying to make, so there's no point debating the issue with you.

JD said...

I'm pretty sure you understand what I'm saying but guess that declaring yourself superior in this situation will do your ego some favours. Alright. No point wasting any more time teaching a rock how to swim.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

JD, you clearly have some kind of inferiority complex.  Where have I 'declared' that I am 'superior'?  I've merely argued my points.  The mere act of debating points doesn't confer superiority on someone.  I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. Sue me.

walata said...

Jaime - i think this is the most exhaustive analysis i have seen on this subject. As a long term Manc, i would die to have Torres on our team and as your facts show, i believe he is a better striker than Rooney. My fellow Mancs miss the point that you are only comparing their effectiveness in goal scoring and not defending/tracking back.Great job and it would be nice to see this again at the end of this season.....BTW...can you do an analysis for the Messi vs Ronaldo debate? A lot of people would love to see that. Cheers mate!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Messi-Ronaldo would be an interesting comparison, I agree ;)

bryan said...

Fair enough if you want to measure their effectiveness as purely attacking players since thats what they primarily are. Yet, measuring ATTACKING CONTRIBUTION in goals/assists is narrow minded. As red ninja alrady said what about making a pass that leads to a goal but not actually getting the assist? Such contributions can't be measured. I would also like to point out that one of your earlier replies mentioned that:
"That is why the most important criteria for judging the effectiveness of a creative player are goals/assists/goals per game, goals per minute/shots on target etc." Where are the shots on target, saves forced, accuracy of shots e.t.c? Until these stats are shown, a full picture of both players attacking prowess isn't shown.

Fair enough you want to draw a line, and this is your blog, your opinion, but in my opinion, and the opinion of the majority of the people here you really can never, ever measure the effectiveness of a player by stats. If we did, we wouldn't have this constant debate over who the best player ever was i.e Mr. Failing-coach-of Argentina vs Pele.

Also, though not directly relevant to your argument, it's worth noting that Rooney was NOT United's main man last season. It was RONALDO. It isn't genuine to pretend that a Striker (who's said he wants to play in the centre) playing on the Wing isn't going to be less effective than if he was played in his preferred positioning. I'm not saying your argument isn't relevant, and i do know you've answered this earlier on but i'm saying it still is worth considering that positioning, and role in the team do matter.

Lastly, to all fellow United fans: stop barking up the wrong tree. This is a damn Liverpool blog and they are always going to write articles that are biased against our players and designed to wind us up (and try to make us look stupid).

Also: Note the title of the article- It's deliberately misleading and designed to get our blood boiling. A more accurate title would have been Statistical proof that Fernando Torres is a more effective ATTACKING player than Wayne Rooney.To the author: if you're going to pretend to be scientific, at least be accurate in your hypothesis.

aussie red said...

JD torres is not just a striker. he defends well, saved our butts a few times from defensive corners and creates the odd goal from out on the wings. he gives alot more to the team than most strikers would and even when he has bad days he'll still either create or score atleast a goal whereas rooney would just get pissed off a probably red carded.

Sir Ryan said...

Ageed on the validity of comparison but Rooney performs all over the pitch because United can score from all departments. Sorry guys Liverpool only have two scorers. I do think if Torres played in a better all round team than where he does at present he could be one of the greats. I think the medal haul will always put Rooney a shade above.

me said...

Ronaldo and Sir alex win titles FACT

wazzas said...

if my team is going through a bad game n i have rooney and torres on the bench- i will go for rooney coz he can create his own chances  as well as making others play, he is a powerhouse. Torres is more like a finishing article, ur team  creates the chances n torres concludes. like this he aways needs others to play well so that he can perform. In short the 2 is effective in their very own way bt rooney is a complete modern striker EFFECTIVE IN EVERY KIND ON MATCH!!!!

Adz said...

Yes.. but how much defending does Torres do in comparison to Rooney aye? Rooney is a total footballer that has won everything- FACT

This might be your year! said...

Haha what a load of crap. How fucking scientific! proving that torres is a better player due to a better goal/assist to game ratio than Rooney. So Rivaldo was better than Zidane?
'
Rooney is a conplete footbaler as where Torres is a goal poatcher a la Ruud van Nistelroy. You will never see Torres set up a teammate the way Rooney does every week.

Who is the idiot trying to prove these sort of stuff. Must have absolutely nothing to do. Must be very very bitter. Must have not won the league for like 20 years. Must be scouse

Ahh  well..  At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Torres is better than Rooney. What matters is the PL. Something Rooney has won for the last three years.

hza on da bizza said...

c'mon let them win something.

hza on da bizza said...

"lies, damned lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli<span style="font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px;"> </span>

Callum said...

The problem is, statistics are a pretty poor way of judging players. A tap-in or a goal where you beat 4 men and smash it into the top corner are worth the same. (Not a comment on Torres, obviously.) An 'assist' like Berbatov's piece of genius against West Ham last season is worth the same as Tevez's 'assist' of a five-yard pass near the halfway line to Bellamy before he ran to the edge of the area and smashed it past foster.

Apart from anything else, the problem is that, as many people have commented, Rooney, with the possible exception of this season, has never been the focal point of United's attack because he has never played as an out-and-out striker. Even when he was playing centrally we were playing with a flexible, rotating attacking 4. And you could be a very creative player, but if you don't get the pass immediately before the goal - you have nothing to show for it.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Gee, could you *be* any more cliched?

Yolkie said...

So you're saying, with Torres being ONE goal in front on a combined goals and assists tally, he's DEFINITIVELY, ULTIMATELY, IRREFUTABLY better?

The statistic argument is nonsense (as proved here http://www.stretford-end.com/blog/?p=603 your misrepresented facts defeat your own debate) but if you're really sticking by this then what you are saying is that this time last week Rooney was DEFINITIVELY, ULTIMATE AND IRREFUTABLY better than Torres was before the hat-trick against Super Hull.

Absolute nonsense my friend.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You have things backwards - that's not what I'm saying at all.  Did you not see that the analysis is from 2007-2009?  it is not just this season. Furthermore, it is not just about goals/assists - that is one set of criteria. I've also used goals per game/goals per minute over the last 2 and a bit seasons. 

So Torres' hat-trick doesn't really make any difference to the bigger picture - the previous two seasons he was on top for both campaigns in terms of GMG, GPM and overall goals and assists.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Another thing - that post on 'The Stretford End' completely misses the point.  Earlier in this thread, one of your own long-time supporters even admitted that the majority of Man U fans on this thread are missing the point.  It's not about overall play/tracking back/defensive duty etc, it's about the following:

Specific, measurable creative impact

By this I mean objective proof of creative impact, not subjective assertions (i.e individual perception based on watching games).

When it comes to measuring direct, creative impact on a team, Torres is more consistently effective than Rooney.  This is irrefutable.  A player who has a higher goals/assists per game/per minute ratio than another is, as a matter of fact, more consistently creative.

For the results to be credible, however, it has to be over a reasonable period of time, i.e. one season minimum.  You can't just use a 7 or 8 game period in one particular season as an indicator.  This is why I've used two full seasons.

What Rooney does off the ball etc is irrlevant - this analysis is purely based on specific, measurable creative impact.

Gary said...

According to statistics, six out of seven dwarves aren't happy.

Hargo's Left Knee said...

Interesting analysis, I wouldn't have expected it to come out any other way (and I'm a United fan). Torres is a superb centre forward, and of course he scores more than Rooney, he just broke the time taken to 50 goals record at Pool, thus faster than Owen, Rush, Fowler and so forth. As an out and out striker, he's one of if not the best in the world. 

That said, I don't see why you'd compare him to Rooney, who barely ever plays as an out and out striker. Even when he is supposed to, he tends to fall back to deeper positions. 

If you want to prove Torres' worth, compare him to Ruud Van Nistlerooy, or Didier Drogba. A quick wiki gets Ruud's first 3 seasons at: 

Year 1: 36 goals, 1.36 games per goal
Year 2: 44 goals, 1.18 games per goal
Year 3: 30 goals, 1.47 games per goal

Total: 110 goals, 1.3 games per goal

So same rate as Torres, but played more and will therefore have scored more. 

Put in that frame, Torres should, as he is, be considered one of the very best goal scorers in Premiership history. 

MUFC innit said...

hahahaha, desperate

phildo said...

so basically the difference between the 2 players (overall creative impact) is one goal. wow!!! im so delighted i wasted my time reading such an insightful article. Liverfool fans - find something better to do with your time, like stealing cars

Yolkie said...

<span style="">

How can you say anyone has it backwards when you're comparing the goalscoring form of two players in a 2 years period when one of the players played mostly out wide, rarely as a number 9 type striker and the other has basically had no other mandate BUT to score goals.

The blog on Stretford-End.com addresses the point far more thoroughly than you have even attempted to do. You have produced a number of statistics that fit your agenda and have not even entertained the notion of influencing factors. At no point in either blog have I made the case about Rooney's workrate being a compensating factor. I have addressed your points clearly.

Then when there are gaping holes in your own argument such when I pointed out about last week the stats would have favoured Rooney, you say that doesn't "really make any difference". You can't use it as part of your "Analysis" and then dismiss it as irrelevant when I point out that one game would have made a significant impact on something you are proclaiming as "irrefutable".

I have to give it to you. On the games you have selected and the statistics you have chosen to use Torres compares favourably. However there is nothing definitive to be gained from anything you have written other than the fact you have hand picked a few stats where you believe Torres to be "more effective". This is fine if this is what you had stuck to but you have elaborated this to "measuring direct, creative impact".

But where are the stats for providing goalscoring chances? Or are we punishing Rooney if, for example, Berbatov misses a chance put on a plate for him? Is this not a creative impact? What if the intelligent run of Rooney lead to another player being unmarked? Is this not a creative impact? Don't give me the kerfuffle about it being immeasurable. There are all sorts of pro-zone stats that could give chances created etc. There are gadgets you can find on the net that can give you some similar answers. You used some yourself. Shots on goal. Goals scored. Assists. Where is the stat for chances created? The fact that you chose not to use the WIDE RANGE of measurable factors means that your "proof" is nothing more than your opinion backed up with little more than "Torres has scored a lot more goals".

Your entire piece of based on a one sided subjective assertion, there is nothing truly objective about it. This has been proven when the flimsy strength of one of your proud "analysis" points is questioned. Other points in your analysis don't even make sense. I assume that they are there to back up Torres but can you tell me how "even though Torres was fouled more than Rooney he scored more goals" is any kind of logical statement? Or how does this prove in any shape or form let alone "irrefutably" that he is more effective?
I could measure assists from the last season and the bit of this and say that Ryan Giggs is undeniably almost 5 times better than Torres, with about 27 assists (if memory serves me correctly, feel free to prove me wrong) to Torres 6.

You haven't even appreciated the fact Rooney has essentially been far more CREATIVE than Torres, you've just dismissed that with the fact that as of last week the combined total of both goals and assists is in Torres' favour. The most I could really think you could "conclude" from the stats you have chosen is that Torres has clearly scored more goals while Rooney has created far more goals for his side. I mean, those are the two main criteria you've chosen, right? And Torres has more goals while Rooney has more assists? Or are you choosing to lump the numbers together again? Even though last week those same stats would have been in favour of Rooney? Or is it then that it "doesn't make any difference?"

Finally, a true [...]

Yolkie said...

By the way. I'm aware most of the points I've made have been made by others but you haven't answered them.

And "where do you stop" isn't really an answer. If you're making a definitive statement - which you are - then you must be prepared for all eventualities - which you aren't - otherwise you must expect your flimsy OPINION to be shown for what it is and subsequently proven to be poppycock - which it has.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I've answered all the points raised over and over.  You just don't get what I'm trying to say, so there's no point wasting any more time.

Guest said...

yeah he wasnt in charge but it was mostly the same team.  what im trying to say is that kbill is sayin that chelsea & liverpool have beaten barcelona recently when in fact the last english team to beat them was man utd

Yolkie said...

To be fair you haven't really answered.

"Where do you stop" and saying certain elements "don't make a difference" when they're proven to be weak are NOT answers. If you can't answer, which seems the case, then fair enough, but don't just say you have.

It's clear what you're trying to say - you think you have definitively proved that Torres is better than Rooney.

The conclusion? You haven't, you can't and you have no intention of answering the numerous flaws in your "ultimate proof". If it was a joke blog - which I am now beginning to suspect it was - then fair enough.

I'd steer clear of saying things are "fact" when that can easily be disputed otherwise you might end up as big a laughing stock as the manager of the club you support! :-D

Jaimie Kanwar said...

If you really want me to point out your breathtaking misundestanding of my article, I will.

1. What is the primary goal of an attacking player?  To score and create goals.  For defenders, it is to stop goals being scored/ scoring chances being created etc. 

2. When considering the effectiveness of an attacking player, the primary purpose must be he main focus, i.e. how do we prove/establish if an attacking player is effective at achieving their primary purpose?

3. Things like how many miles run per game/tackles won/shor passes achieved etc are NOT relevant/important when it comes to an attackers primary purpose.

4. The most important things to consider are:

Goals scored
Assists
Goals per minute ratio
Goals per game ratio
Assists per minute ratio
Assists per game ratio
Shots on target

5. These criteria DIRECTLY establish an attacking players SPECIFIC, MEASURABLE CREATIVE IMPACT.

6. To out it another way, what is more persuasive evidence when establishing the creative impact of a player? their goals/assists/goals per minute ratios or how many short passes they completed (or indeed any of the other stats you've mentioned) Only an idiot would argue that anything outside the 7 criteria I have listed above is more important whe establish specific, measurable creative impact.

7. I do not doubt that in other areas of his game, Rooney may be superior to Torres. He may be more versatile; he may be a better tackler; he may be a better team player, but these things are irrlevent because they have nothing to do with the question at hand, which is: Who is the more effective ATTACKING/CREATIVE player.

No matter how you choose to muddy the waters, it is an irrefutable fact that creative players are - first and foremost - principally judged on their specific and measurable creative impact, and that means goals/assists and everything else Ive mentioned above.

Other stats my well be relevant, but the first thing you look at is what I described earlier.

And given that analysis, it is thus a fact that Torres is a more consistently creative performer than Rooney. 

* More goals every season
* Better goals per game ration every season
* Better goals per minute ratio every season
* More shots on target
* Better overall creative impact per minute/game every season

Rooney is superior when it comes to assists, and that is fine.  However, this one component does not change the overall result.

Now, please stop trying to focus on things that have nothing to do with specific, measurable creative impact, i.e. a players pro vable, direct creative impact on games ;)

Zareef said...

Stats are like Bikinis tell's u a lot but show's nothing!

Rooney works 10 times harder than Torres, Torres just waits for Gerrard to pass the ball, then he scores.

And I also Agree with Scott :D

Plus Rooney Played on the left for almost 2 seasons, now he plays Central, You'll see who FINISHES as Top Scorer at the END

18 times and that's a facht!
Top of the league And that's a facht!

Guest said...

If we are going by strikers stats then surely Ruud Van Nistlerooy is one of  the best strikers in Europe at the moment with a goal to game ratio of 1.6 compared to Torres` 2.34.  Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima who coincidentally is still playing has a great goal to game ratio of 0.69 and alot of those were in his days of playing for Europe`s Elite.

So arguments or comments of Torres being the best in the world are flawed by all your stats and your blindness to players playing outside of your team.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

*sigh*

How many times...

You can't take stats just from this season.  I have examined two full seasons to get an accurate and fair picture of creative impact.

Seriously stop already. said...

You have to be the most unintelligent sports blog writer ever to have existed.
"The Ultimate proof that Torres is more effective attacking player than Rooney"
Then choosing only goals & assists to prove it. Completing ignoring the fact that statistics will NEVER provide the reality of which a player like Rooney contributes to the team scoring far MORE than Torres ever can or will do, as he is a goal poacher, and Rooney is a footballer who doesn't play in the position to poach goals most of the time.
Basically, you can't make a title like that and then pretend no one understands the meaning of your article like its "hard" to understand... it's seriously basic. And unfortunately so are you.
You know even Liverpool fans will stop reading this bollocks the more you pretend its "irrefutable."

dennis said...

rooney is not a left wing player but ronaldo is. the fact is rooney is more creactive than torres. all what torres do is I NEED THE BALL AND SCORE BUT ROONEY CREATE FOR HIMSELF AND SCORE. THATS WHY ROONEY BETTER THAN TORRES.

dennis said...

WHERE DID YOU REACH IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE LAST YEAR.

dennis said...

GO STRAIGHT TO THE POINT. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EFFECTIVE PLAYER, THEN ROONEY IS BETTER BCOS HE IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TORRES. 

dennis said...

<div id="TixyyLink" style="text-align: left; background-color: transparent; width: 0px; height: 0px; color: #000000; overflow: hidden; text-decoration: none;">GO STRAIGHT TO THE POINT. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EFFECTIVE PLAYER, THEN ROONEY IS BETTER BCOS HE IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TORRES. 

Read more: <span style="color: #940f04;">http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/revealed-proof-that-fernando-torres-is.html#ixzz0SoIBb1lj</span>
</div>
i love your coments pal
go


<div id="TixyyLink" style="text-align: left; background-color: transparent; width: 0px; height: 0px; color: #000000; overflow: hidden; text-decoration: none;">GO STRAIGHT TO THE POINT. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EFFECTIVE PLAYER, THEN ROONEY IS BETTER BCOS HE IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TORRES

Read more: <span style="color: #940f04;">http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/revealed-proof-that-fernando-torres-is.html#ixzz0SoINuflj</span>
</div>

dennis said...

i love your coments pal

Guest said...

torres has never been effective in europe..he scores hatricks against hull but where was he on tuesday and 1st match?nowhere to be seen..
rooney can operate all over the pitch..he tracks back to get the ball back hence united's impressive defensive record..if you ask torres to play rooney's role he'd be shit..

dennis_is_a_fag said...

and... you're a knob-shine! you man u supporters can never just accept that maybe one player is better than yours. you always have to be up on your high horse. that fact that you have a good football team does not mean that your entire side is made from the best players in the league. wake up people. man u are a great football team, rooney is without doubt a great player, but certainly nowhere near as creative as torres. never in a million years!!! just accept it, and move on with life.

uknob said...

yet another "i have no brain" comment from a typical man u supporter. my god you people are the worst supporters in the world! tuesday's game was an absolute write-ff, a shocker! torres could do nothing because he didnt get the ball from anyone you idiot. if rooney had been in torres's place the exact same thing would have happened, because the rest of the team played like shite. a striker can do nothing if he hasnt got the ball. and dont say crap like rooney tracks back and gets the ball because thats rubbish.

rooney is a good striker with great determination and a strong mentality, but the rest of the man u team make him look better than he really is.

Yolkie said...

<span style="">

For the last time. Your article is very easy to understand.

You've chosen a very small list of statistics. You've made it so easy that idiots who can't add 1 and 1 together can understand. Your overall point as I've made clear (and so have you) is that you are saying DEFINITIVELY that you can PROVE Torres is better than Rooney and the statistics you have conjured up prove so.

Thank you for giving a numbered list - perhaps you can begin to comprehend how flawed your "irrefutable" proof is.

1. The primary goal of an attacking player is to help his team win. That's the primary goal of ANY player. The secondary goal of an attacking player is to score and create goals. Of course this is subjective, but I already said I'm not even trying to comment about the number of times Rooney tackles or whatever.

2. Good question. I'm assuming you're going to say this is where your stats come in. Fair enough. But you have only used selective stats. You yourself have said "where do you stop?" which is a fairly reasonable thing to say. What is ridiculous is that you have included "number of times fouled" as a relevant stat yet you have not included "number of goalscoring chances created for teammates". Which do you think is more relevant?

By the by, what else do we use to consider the effectiveness of an attacking player? This is ironically a debate often held in the past by United fans over the respective merits of Rooney and Ronaldo (a completely different subject, of course). With Rooney in the side we've won lots of trophies. With Torres in your side you've won.. nothing. It's a different kind of statistic mate but which do you think is the one that matters?

3. That's your opinion. Completely subjective, not objective, and you claimed your point to be irrefutable.

4. Your opinion again. I would like to again point out that you seem to think "fouls against" is a worthwhile statistic in this column but "goalscoring chances created" or "pass before assist" is not. Strangely you have not included it in this list.

5. You'll have to come back to me on just how thoroughly a creative impact is established with that criteria. As outlined above.

6. Again, you're "muddying the waters" with creative impact. Creative impact on its own is an ambiguous term and you've flown full steam ahead into it. Making it your opinion.

But if you may indulge me a pigheaded moment, you DID indicate in your blog (did you not) that "fouls against" is a more important criteria than "goalscoring chances created"? On it's own that makes this entire debate your opinion. Thus, subjective. Thus, hardly "irrefutable". You seem to think I have misunderstood your blog yet you seem to have trouble missing this fundamental point that renders your opinion - and that's what it is - useless.

7. Fair enough, Torres has scored more goals. Rooney has more assists. And, when you strip it down to the bare bones, these are the two structures you have to flesh out to prove the point. You seem to acknowledge that by saying "that means goals/assists".

First of all you never fairly acknowledged the fact Rooney's assist tally being far higher indicates he brings more to the team as a balanced attacking force, secondly you are still bizarrely downplaying the assists point when surely that is 50% (using this specific blogs example) of the "creative" debate......
</span>

Yolkie said...

....What you have done is say Torres is "irrefutably" more "effective" when you really should say that Torres has scored more goals but Rooney has set up far more and is therefore by the true definition more "creative". You may concede that here but you didn't fairly represent that in the blog.

You were then challenged by your analysis that Torres single extra goal proved something - you failed to answer this, too. All you could say was "it doesn't make that much difference" but when YOU are using it to back up supposed "proof" then it should be watertight, should it not? All that it means is that it again is subjective and is relevant to this week only. On this basis this makes me think you've been sat here for 2 years waiting for Torres to nudge a single goal ahead and then jumped to write a blog. You certainly weren't writing this blog last week and using that stat to back it up were you?
You might think that "fouls against" is something people first look at. Personally I think the MAJORITY of people would think "goalscoring chances created" is a far more revelant stat when taking into account "measurable creative impact".

If you can prove to me using something - ANYTHING - that Torres being fouled more means he brings something more creative to the table than Rooney and that it somehow is a more "provable, direct creative impact" than the trophies Rooney has helped United to win (as an attacking, creative player just incase you wrongly presume I've missed the point in some vain attempt to wriggle out of the points I've made) then I'd be glad to hear it.

Until then expect to continue to get picked apart. It's already clear to everyone that this is now your opinion and rarely even holds upto argument let alone reasonable analysis. You can't even answer the questions that cut your "analysis" to shreds.

Probably better all round if you mark this one down to a clanger, mate. Was always going to be the proverbial dropping of the bollock.

Fizenvi said...

Jamie, I do not understand the reasoning behind the inclusion of statistics of 2009-10 season. If you had included those stats after the season has been over, it would've made sense. But including them when only 7 games have so far been played.

Torres had scored a hat-trick last weekend against HULL and thus turning this comparison in his favour. Which you have used to your advantage. However, If rooney scores a hat-trick this weekend whilst torres goes goalless, Does it mean Rooney has become a more effective player within a single week ??

I have writted the facts for past two COMPLETED seasons.

Fernando Torres

2007-08

goals - 33 / assists - 4
Total - 37

2008-2009

goals - 17 / assists - 5
Total - 22

Wayne Rooney

2007-08

goals - 18 / assists - 14
Total - 32

2008-2009

goals -  17/ assists - 12
Total - 29

Torres totals = 59 (50:9)
Rooney Totals = 61 (35:26)

Thus, By your own computed statistics, ROONEY is IRREFUTABLY far more effective player than Fernando torres.

Im not even Gonna go on and on about rooney being played out of position for last two seasons as well as being far more complete and effective player on the pitch than on the final third like my fellow mancs. Im just stating the facts you had posted.


Im awaiting a reply to this post jamie.

P.S.

Rooney -2 premiership medals, 1 carling cup, 1 club world cup, 1 champions league
TorresNIL

And that's a fact

Fizenvi said...

And Jamie. before you start going on about the differnce between GPM and GMM, i've calculated their overall creative effectivness of Both individuals during the two COMPLETED season.

I've not taken the GPM/GPG into consideration due to the fact that rooney was the striker in our team like torres had been for yours. If you want to compare that aspect, you should compare torres with ronaldo not rooney because he was our striker even though he started out as a winger.

Fernando Torres

2007-08

Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 87 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.2 games

2008-09

Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 127 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.7 games

Torres totals -

Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games


Wayne Rooney

2007-08


Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.3 games

2008-09

Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 121 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.6 games

Rooney Totals -

Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 112 minutes
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games

As you can see, Predictably torres was ahead of rooney in his first season due to his sublime form. However, in the 08-09 season rooney is ahead of torres in both aspects, which can be argued due to the fact of his injury.

In the totals, rooney and torres have the equal creative ratio per game while torres is ahead of rooney by 9 mins in Creative ratio per minute due to the fact that he spent less time on the pitch during 08-09 season.

It can be argued that torres has been better than rooney based ont hose stats. However, Your base statement in the article and Asserting "FACT" that Torres's CRPG/CRPM was FAR SUPERIOR than rooney is extremely flawed.

Fizenvi said...

And Jamie. before you start going on about the difference of GPM and GMM betweem the two players, i've calculated their overall creative effectivness of Both individuals during the two COMPLETED season.  
 
I've not taken the GPM/GPG into consideration due to the fact that rooney was not the striker in our team like torres had been for yours. If you want to compare that aspect, you should compare torres with ronaldo not rooney because he was our central forward. 
 
Fernando Torres  
 
2007-08  
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 87 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.2 games  
 
2008-09  
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 127 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.7 games  
 
Torres totals -  
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games  
 
 
Wayne Rooney  
 
2007-08
 
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.3 games  
 
2008-09  
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 121 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.6 games  
 
Rooney Totals -  
 
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 112 minutes  
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games  
 
As you can see, Predictably torres was ahead of rooney in his first season due to his sublime form. However, in the 08-09 season rooney is ahead of torres in both aspects, which can be argued due to the fact of his injury.  
 
In the totals, rooney and torres have the equal creative ratio per game while torres is ahead of rooney by 9 mins in Creative ratio per minute due to the fact that he spent less time on the pitch during 08-09 season.  
 
It can be argued that torres has been better than rooney based ont hose stats. However, Your base statement in the article and Asserting "FACT" that Torres's CRPG/CRPM was FAR SUPERIOR than rooney is extremely flawed.

Fizenvi said...

And Jamie. before you start going on about the difference of GPM and GMM betweem the two players, i've calculated their overall creative effectivness of Both individuals during the two COMPLETED season.    
   
I've not taken the GPM/GPG into consideration due to the fact that rooney was not the striker in our team like torres had been for yours. If you want to compare that aspect, you should compare torres with ronaldo not rooney because he was our central forward.   
   
Fernando Torres    
   
2007-08    
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 87 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.2 games    
   
2008-09    
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 127 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.7 games    
   
Torres totals -    
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games    
   
   
Wayne Rooney    
   
2007-08
   
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 103 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.3 games    
   
2008-09    
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 121 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.6 games    
   
Rooney Totals -    
   
Creative Ratio per minute - 1 every 112 minutes    
Creative Ratio per game – 1 every 1.4 games    
   
As you can see, Predictably torres was ahead of rooney in his first season due to his sublime form. However, in the 08-09 season rooney is ahead of torres in both aspects, which can be argued due to the fact of his injury.    
   
In the totals, rooney and torres have the equal creative ratio per game while torres is ahead of rooney by 9 mins in Creative ratio per minute due to the fact that he spent less time on the pitch during 08-09 season.    
   
It can be argued that torres has been better than rooney based ont hose stats. However, Your base statement in the article and Asserting "FACT" that Torres's CRPG/CRPM was FAR SUPERIOR than rooney is extremely flawed.

Anfeild Singh said...

Can't believe this discussion is still continuing!lol.

Torres is the best striker in the world currently, if u would put any player in front of him, then ur stupid.

Rooney is a much better complete player who offer's alot more for the team.

Combine the two, u would have a perfect attacking force.

End of story.

Guest said...

Torres is the better goal scorer no dout, But Rooney is not a number 9, he is a number 10.

yes, they both need to score goals and assist goals.

But they do not play in the same way, Gerrard plays more like a number 10 these days.

both great players, Torres is the Better striker, I think Rooney has the better all round game,

for example he can score and assist in lots of different positions, mabye when Benitez plays Torres on the left, scores 1 and sets up another :-D

Vic the Swede said...

Im a United fan. 

I love Wayne Rooney and thinks he is a great striker. But I also see the fact that Torres is more effective (which is what this article is about). The stats prove it. The killier instinct in the box proves it. Torres is probably the best STRIKER in the world at the moment and this article shows that. It doesn't say BEST, it just says MOST EFFECTIVE.

On the other hand, I think Rooney contributes more to the team (beside the goal-scoring) than Torres. But that is harder to prove in statistics. 

BTW: to all those who use trophies as a measurement of how good a player is: John Oshea has won 4 PL, 1 CL, 1 FA-cup, 2 League-cup, 1 Club World Cup and 3 Community Shield. Glen Johnson has won 2 PL, 1 FA-cup, 1 League-cup and 1 Community Shield.

So these stats shows that O'shea is better than Johnson?!?!?!

Vic the Swede said...

Well said!

Sir Ryan said...

Good last point there Ted, Torres is undoubtedly class but he will not stay at Anfield, when a big money offer comes in, thats the way with the foreign players. You see if I'm wrong,  Real or Barca will offer a squillion and he'll be gone. Rooney i think will be loyal and play out his time at OT. You cannot buy loyalty, its either in the heart or its not.

gajendra said...

oh yeah? u dont see torres scoring in bigger games huh??then where was rooney against sunderland???mighty luck saved them a point

mike said...

no u idiot they lost cos ronaldinho owned them

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