10/12/2009 01:32:00 pm

Rafa Benitez has spent over £220m at Liverpool. Time to put up or shut up.






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228 Comments :

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hmmm said...

by your calculations, Rafa has had less than £22m per season to spend - Is that enough to take the team he inherited and have it catch up to United ans Chelsea who were streets ahead of us under Houllier?

Taking that question forward a bit - will £20m a season be enough to continue to close that gap, as he undoubtedly already has?

Weller said...

Immediately your article is flawed so dont expect to be taken seriously and expect a lot of abuse.

Your heading is, in true poor tabloid style, completely misleading and a contracdiction of what you go  on to say. You actually prove your own heading to be rubbish! Hilarious

Any Business is run on NET spending. It's basic profit and Loss so Rafa has not actually spent over 220million like your heading states. Terrible amature post.

Guest said...

some of your choices of failure are not an honest reflection....riera been one of them.
he plays well but not given enough playing time.

players bought and sold dont match, so not fair justification for a loss

Guest said...

Tell ya what. You shut up.

Andrew said...

You are missing fernando Morientes (£8mill)
Nevertheless, you are painting a wrong picture my friend. Rafa may have spent 112 mill, yet a few points are still to be discussed: 1) It doesn't show that the board still wont support him in signing the players he wants e.g Gareth Barry for the same fee as Robbie Keane. Rafa did not want Robbie, he wanted to strengthen the midfield. 2) the current board are not allowing any big sums to be spent by Rafa, the big signings (Torres, Keane, Aquilani, Johnson) have all come of the back of sales and small transfer funds. 3) The first two years, where he signed most players, the americans were not in charge, hence this board still haven't supported Rafa.  

Guest said...

Since he is responsible for success or failure on the pitch, lets play Rafa.  That makes about as much sense as the rest of your "argument".

Guest said...

For your information Ramsey was signed by Arsenal from Cardiff City for £5 million get your facts right!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Oh god, the old 'net spend' cliche again. 

Please clarify our grandiose generalisation that 'any business is run on net spend', and please explain how this applies to football specifically.

You are basically suggesting that it is okay to waste money as long as you make money back in the future, no?

So - let's say Liverpoo spent 50m on player X, who turned out to be a complete and utter flop, contributing nothing for 2 years.

With your reasoning, if Liverpool sold him for 40m, it would be okay because the net spend would only be 10m.

What about the wasted OPPORTUNITIES in the intervening period?

* 2 years of time wasted on a failed player

* 2 years of potential success/trophies lost because the wrong player was bought.

* 2 years of team cohesion lost because player X couldn't fit in

* 2 years of youth development lost because player X was keeping promising young player Y out of the team

it is not all black and white when it comes to net spend, a concept which is lazy way of allowing a club/manager to relinquish responsibility for their mistakes.

"Rafa - you've wasted 100m on players in the last 5 years!

"it's okay - I made 70 million back".

Such spurious reasoning.

Net spend is a myth - we should be focusing on the actual benefits of any money spent by a manager.

Making money back on a failed player does not negate the original mistake.

truth said...

Taking the business model further, not only should your headline have quoted his net spending so as not to be misleading, but you also need to factor in the value of his current squad compared to the value of the squad he inherited. Players are capital assets of the club and need to counted on any balance sheet calculations. I would argue that his current squad is worth in the region of £100m more than the squad he inherited. Torres' value must be around £60m in todays market, a £40m profit on one player alone!

Most of the £120m he has spent is sat in the squad in the form of capital assets like Mascherano, Torres, Riena, Skertel, Aquilani, Johnson which have added to the value of LFC enormously.

I think he is a quality manager. I've often wondered if the regular Rafa critiques, like Jamie for example, can suggest a replacement who would improve us and would be attainable?

Guest said...

pls also do the same for Sir Alex, Arsene and Chelsea over the last 5 years, and compare them with Rafa.

this article seems to be over-critical on Rafa and unfair to him.

Guest said...

Players still at the club cannot be classed failures as they still have a chance to turn it arround.

I will admit the Dossena, doesn't look like he'll get the chance, but you never know.

Leto - never got a chance due to work permit
Gonzalez - was unable to come to the club when Rafa really wanted him again for work permit reasons.
Palletta - Very young and home sick
Degen - Hardly played due to injuries


Also we trippled our money on Carson

So if you take another look the picture is not a bleak as you make it out to be.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Just because you think the current squad is 'worth £100m more than the squad he inherited'and that Torres' value must be 'around £60m in todays market, a £40m profit on one player alone!' doesn't make it so, does it?

And IMO, there are plenty of managers out there who could replace Rafa and do a good, if not better job.  That is the nature of football - there is always someone better out there who will come in and wow everyone.  Or are you suggesting that Rafa is irreplaceable, and is the best manager Liverpool could ever hope to have?

Alan from Ireland said...

Name them?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

How does the record of other teams have any relevance to the players Rafa has bought/sold?  How does Ferguson spending 27m on Veron (or whatever it was) have anything to do with Rafa spending 20m on Keane?

The answer: one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. If it is relevant, please explain how.

Guest said...

I'm not a huge rafa fan but you can't really judge him on whether a player is a success or failure because it relative.  As a free transfer Zenden was never going to be a superstar but he did well for a player with his ability, I would say the same about someone like Reira. He isn't in the top class of wingers but thats why he cost £8m and not £20m like David Silva.

So far only one player who rafa has spent more than £15m on has been a failure. In the same period Fergie has had Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves, Berbatov.  Chelsea have had just as many if not more who have failed.

IMO when judging a manager you have to look at the squad he started with and the one he started with was pretty poor.
Also the lists aren't the good.
IE. Sissoko left for £8.5m, Kromkamp £3m and Paletta left in a swap deal for Insua.

It also doesn't take into account all the young players who have been brought and sold.
A kid like Pourie arrived for 250k but left for £2m.

Also the you can't blame rafa for the youth development problem,  when he arrived the average age of the reserves was 23 which is a joke.  For me he doesn't give the young players a chance early enough but we have as many good young players as City and Everton.

For me anything less than second and a cup this season will be a failure because i think he's built his squad, he has the young players and it all depends on whether he is prepared to trust them.

Guest said...

The gross figure is misleading. £22m net per year is not that much compared to United and Chelsea, especially when you consider that it involved practically an entirely new squad after the shambles it was left in previosly.
The performaces of the youth teams in recent years point to the fact there is young talent at the club, especially the likes of Darby, Spearing, Pacheco, Dalla Valle, Ince and Amoo. All very talented. Rafa needs to start taking a chance on these promising youngsters rather than getting in two-bit journeymen for a few million here and there.

Granat said...

First of all, how can you call Riera a failure, he's one of our best left wingers since.... (I can't even remember). But most importantly, there's missing some names on your list like Baros, Finnan, Le Tallec, Murphy etc. And also some of your transfer fees aren't correct.
All in all: Bad Article!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Martin O' Neill, Frank Rijkaard, Guus Hiddink, Manolo Jiminez (Sevilla-, Jose Mourinho, Marcello Lippi, Fabio Capello (post-England), Michael Laudrup (promising up-and-comer in the mould of Guardiola), Martin Jol (outsider), Ronald Koeman, Dider Deschamps...the list goes on.

I don't profess to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of football, but the question is this: Is Benitez irreplaceable? NO.  Is there SOMEONE out there in world football capable of coming in and doing a great job? YES.

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Alan from Ireland said...

JK, if you beat one manager with the stick you have to judge his counterparts by the same marin espeically if you title the article the way your writer did so.

But the one telling fact is of the money spent and recouped add the money he has brought into the club under his managerial reign so far. The club would be operating at a smaller level of debt that we currently are.

hj said...

We will never win the league under Rafa because he insists on playing garbage like Riera,Lucas an Voronin.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Don't just make generalisations; highlight which fees are wrong.

Alan from Ireland said...

Some of those players haven't played much reserve football yet - Rafa will decide when they are good and ready.

Agree with the misleading way this article protrays Benitez spending, if you judge him also judge the opposition.

Brando said...

because it will prove that every body makes mistakes in the transfer market. it is not an exact science. Wenger and Fergie have both "wasted" large sums of money on players that didnt work out. You make out as if rafa is the only one.

Guest said...

One question for you Jaimie......doesn't the amount of money recouped in the sale of a player affect the amount of money in the transfer budget of a team? Of course it does. It doesn't negate the original mistake but it minimizes the effect of that mistake. Is it better to keep a "mistake" on the books till the end of the contract and get little-to-nil in return or recognize the mistake you've made and try to correct it the best you can and recoup some $$? 

Mikemaniac said...

All in all, regardless of inaccurate information, what this list highlights is that Rafa has had to be a wheeler dealer in the market place in order to continually try to grab a bargain. If he was able to buy any player he wanted without having to sell a player first just like our main rivals then I am certain we would have had greater success by now. But the fact is LFC can not compete with our rivals because we do not have the money to go out and spend £30 or £40 million on one player. Rafa has to scrounge in the bargain basement and hopes to unearth a gem, which overall I think he has done very well.

the king said...

dont listen to this idiot! continually slags liverpool fc, this is NOT a liverpool fan site, just a stupid utd fan trying to stir up a bit of controversy parading as a liverpool fan!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Rafa did not want Robbie Keane?  Please provide evidence for this contention.  Considering all the available evidence suggests the complete opposite, I'd be very interested in your response.  or is this just regurgitated media nonsense ;)

Guest said...

I think some of your numbers are off. Mark gonzalez went for 5 mill(pounds). Arbeloa went for 4 mill ( euros). Poor research. 

David said...

Once again your article heading is misleading. Why oh why do you continue to berate Rafa & LFC?

anon said...

Liverpool Kop  once again banging on about how Rafa isn't good enough and still unable to suggest better options.  'Truth' is dead right about the players counting as capital assets for the club, and equally that our squad is worth much more now than 5 years ago, not just because of market conditions but also because of the quality Rafa has brought to us. 

Guys, get a grip.  Your site, and you as individuals, are earning a reputation not only as anti-rafa but also as the cynical negative type of fans that are so disliked at the club.  I see 'jamie kanwar' and 'liverpool kop' mentioned on other sites frequently as examples of bad liverpool sites. 

This comment will probably be taken down by you but oh well, hope you read it and consider the reasons why people would say this.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Rafa has not actually spent over 220m?  How is that?

Question: Before we even consider  money recouped, is it not a fact that Rafa spent the money? 

Example:

Benitez signs Robbie Keane for 20m - Spurs receive 20m.  At that point, has not 20m been spent?!

Of course it has.  Recoupling money later does not change the fact that a specific amount of money was originally spent.

Another example:  If I buy a car for 20k, and then sell it 3 years later for 10K, does this change the fact that I actually paid out 20K originally?!

NO.

This whole line of thinking is fallacious in the extreme.

Guest said...

MArtin O'Neil - Maybe, done it at Celtic disappoointing at Villa
Rijkaard - has man management issues reportly when at Barca
Hiddink - Maybe, would have liked to see him 2nd season at Chelsea to confirm
Jiminez - I don't know enough about him to comment
mourinho - Never
Lippi - Again I Don't know
Cappello - Maybe
Laudrup, Jol, Koeman & deschamps, don't think so

Is Rafa irreplaceable - No is there anyone outstanding enough to replace him that there is any real chance of getting - No

Guest said...

Really poor article again.

I wish Newsnow would mark your articles so that I know not to click on them.

You seem to have an issue with Rafa and as a result will not even accept a "net spend" arguement.

For the record we lost about £2m on Robbie Keane, not ideal but given that he was signed for a big fee and didn't perform we did well to get that sort of figure back. 

Look at Josemi, sold to pay for Kromkamp who was sold to pay for Arbeloa who was sold at a profit, excellent business.  Every sale and purchase saw a better player come in.  That's gradual squad improvement on a limited budget, excellent management.

To have acheived what he has done on a £20 million net spend is very good and we're now suffering because he has no money to spend at all with 2009's sales well above 2009's purchases.  Operating in profit?  Not many managers have that sort of restriction placed on them.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No - it's better to not make the mistake in the first place and avoid having the 'mistake' on the books at all.

All managers make mistakes but on a pound-for-pound basis, Benitez seems to make more than others.  Last summer for example - spent 28m on Keane and Dossena, both of whom are/were (arguably) failures.

28m vs 8.5 million on Riera and Ngog. (jury still out on both).

The point here is just imagine if that 28m had been spent PROPERLY, on player/players who could actually improve the team.

Guest said...

Who should play instead of Lucas?

Plessis?  Spearing?

Poor arguement.

How many games has Voronin started this season?  I can't remember?  Must be a decent amount for you to have mentioned it though.

Guest said...

because the other 3 blokes manage the teams that are in the same league as Rafa. and that we can compare them with Rafa on: their successes/failures on players, the total amount they used to bring in the players, and the trophies/titles that they have won/positioned during the last 5 years.

if you can use these facts to prove to me that Rafa has spent more but achieved mediocre results when compare to the other Big Four teams over the last 5 years, then i'll shut up. otherwise, pls delete this article.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Sources please.  The figures in the article are an amalgamation of top sources.  The fact is, every source is different.  The official site has something different to LFC history, which has something different to Soccernet etc etc.  The actual figures are not that relevant - all the figures are in the general ballpark - the points being made are what matter here.  Quibbling over 0.1m here and there is just avoiding the issues.

Guest said...

<span>• Josemi – £2m - (failure) </span>

Sold to pay for Kromkamp who was an improvement.

<span>• Antonio Nunez - Makeweight in Michael Owen sale - (failure)</span>

Cost nothing.

<span>• Sebastian Leto - £1.85m (failure)
</span>

Sold at a profit.

<span>• Bolo Zenden – free (failure)
</span>

Cost nothing and contributed so how is that a failure?

<span>• Robbie Fowler – free (failure)
</span>

Stupid.

<span>• Craig Bellamy - £6.5m (failure)
</span>

Sold at a profit.

<span>• Mark Gonzalez - £1.5m (failure)
</span>

Sold at a profit.

<span>• Scott Carson - £750,000 (failure)
</span>

Sold at a big profit.

<span>• Lucas Leiva - £6m (failure)
</span>

Regular first team player and Brazilian international.

<span>• Andriy Voronin – free (failure)
</span>

Not a great player but free and has scored goals.

<span>• Albert Riera – £8m (failure)
</span>

In what way is he a failure?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

With respect, you need to wake up.

How has O'Neill been disappointing at Villa?

Personality issues aside, why not Mourinho?

Why young, dynamic and/or up and coming talent like Jol, Laudrup, Koeman and Deschamps?

HHHarry said...

It is obvious he wasn't Rafa purchase as he sold him in January.  Rafa stands by his players (too much in my opinion) and he never stood up for Keane.

Can you please forward this available evidence as mentioned??

HHHarry said...

The manager is always responsible, as is everyone at the football club.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Once again, how does the fact that Wenger/Ferguson/whoever have made mistakes have anything to do with how Rafa spends the money he has?!

Wenger bought Francis Jeffers.  How does that impact on benitez buying Andrea Dossena?!  It doesn't in the slightest.  once has nothing to do with the other; it is just a lame excuse that Liverpool fans use to detract from the real issues here.

if we are discussing Rafa, that does not mean he is being painted as the only one who make mistakes; that is something YOU are projecting onto this situation. 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Um, Gerrard could play instead of Lucas.



---------------- Gerrard -------- Masch

Kuyt ----------- benayoun ----------- Riera

------------------- Torres

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Why is it misleading?

Juan said...

Firstly every manager has successes and failures in the transfer market. Even the messiah of talent spotters Arsene Wenger have the likes of Francis Jeffers to blot their copy book.

And as for your facts pf £229.65 million spent on players against £112.5 received how can your article be reiled on when you have left a number of players out and misquoted amounts received for others. For one Mark Gonzalez was bought for 5 million and sold for 4.5.

Wheres the 6 million received for Milan Baros, the 2.7 for Florent Sinama Pongolle. Did we receive nothing for Neil Mellor (250k), Antonio Barragan (680k), Dietmar Hamann (400k). Danny Murphy (2.5 million), Steve Finnan (1 million), Antony Le Tallec, Paul Anderson etc etc.

So before trying to justify what someone who doesnt give a damn about the club in George Gillett has to say maybe you should start defending the person who lives and breaths LFC in Rafa Benitez.

And if you dont want to do that then at least extend the man the courtesy of getting the figures you claim he has spent/received correct before publishing them as "Official".

Guest said...

What about Xabi going for £30m, Torres worth £70m, Reina worth £25m, thats £125m for just 3 players. Yes he has gambled on many players because of the sheer numbers he has brought in, Liverpool have not really spent a lot on one player in the main. How much would City pay for Yossi if they could get him? £20m, the same could be said of Mascherano? £30m, It's difficult to say i know. Liverpool would be well in the black if we sold players no problem,

Guest said...

Haha, O'Neill's a rubbish manager.

Route 1 or Route 1.

Mourinho - Wouldn't work under the owners and a budget cap
Koemen - wrecker of Valencia, lost it.
Laudrup - Still unproven. Disasterous time in Russia, needs one more bigger job.
Deschamps - Rather have my eyes gouged out. Dire.
Jol - No thanks. Success at Spurs is no barometer of a Liverpool manager. Blew the league last year at Hamburg.

DorsetRed said...

The figures have been used to support an invalid argument.  For example, four of the so-called 'failure' were free and so should be disregarded, and many of the other 'failure' cost next to nothing.

The only real 'big-money' disappointment has been Keane (and how much did he really cost?). If the writer wishes to balance the books, include the present value of Torres, Reina, etc to get an accurate picture, and bear in mind the very real 'profit' on Alonso.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yes, because the apparent value (i.e. pure guesswork) of current players should always be included in a factual analysis of how much REAL money has been spent/received.  Hell, why don't we include the present value of Gerrard too - he could add on another 50m+.

gaffer_tito said...

why not klinsman !?

Guest said...

"On a pound-for-pound basis, Benitez seems to make more than others."  
What you fail to account for is the fact that Benitez, until this summer, did not have the say over whom the club purchased.  He wanted player "X" but had to get it approved via the board, so saying "imagine if that 28 million were spent properly" isn't quite fair is it?  ON a pound for pound basis, the average Rafa flop cost about 3 million quid.  The successes, about 6 million quid.  The average for an uber successful signing is about 15 million quid. Rafa has done a good job, far better than Chelsea or ManU have recently (how is Berbatov working out?  How about Nani?  Anderson?  Owen Broken Hargraves?)  

Mick said...

Whatever Rafa has spent, you have to take into consideration what the teams above us have spent and how long their managers have been at their clubs. Man U and Chelsea have spent more and Arsene has been there ages. Our youth system will bare fruit, probably in the next couple of years. Where's our this player and that player? Youth systems dont churn out diamonds year after year, Everton and City had a good spell, ours will no doubt come again. Plus, in general, the more Rafa has to spend on a single player the better they have turned out, when funds have been thin, he's had to gamble on some players or be guaranteed mediocre ones.

Guest said...

I think you're missing the point Jaimie. If you were in a position that you knew the amount you had to spend, ie. £20 mil a year, was insufficient to allow you to not only compete but to also close the gap on the clubs that are already streets ahead of you.. you would realise you have to use players as a source of revenue. Some players Benitez has bought are nothing more than transient figures bought solely to sell at a profit. The fact is Benitez has made a profit on the majority of those that he has brought in to sell. Not all, admitedly, but the majority. That's all we can ask. That is why you have to take into account net spend, as certain players were brought in solely to generate that profit. That should not be deemed a failure.. that is a success. We now have a quality squad, compared with what was there when Benitez took over. He has had to do that via buying and selling, the alternative with the current level of investment would be to have 4 players worth near £20 milion each and ageing and the rest all worth a lot less than £10 mil. Benitez isn't perfect, but he's the best man for the job.

Garvin Nurse said...

Yes its better to not make misytakes and all managers would wish their transfers would work out ut the fact of the matter is that mistakes ARE made. So back to my original question - is it better to recognise the mistake and recoup as much as u can or kust live with it for the duration of the contract. Also, does the $$ recouped affect the transfer budget? Two really simple questions that require essentially "yes" or "no".

And on a pound-for-pound basis how do u know that Benitez has done worse than other managers? Have u done a comparison? And if it is relevant, y r u using to try and support your position?

Guest said...

Martin O Neill: What has he won?  Nothing.  
Frank Rijkaard?  He didn't leave Barca in a good way.  What makes you think he'd be good for us? 
Mourinho?  Not with a budget.  And not if you want long term success.
Jol???  Are you serious?  
Hiddink, yes, but would he come to LFC?
Capello?  yes, but not until after the World Cup, and that is a problem.  

Rossi said...

Get over your hatred for Benitez!!!!! How can Fowler be a failure score 5 goals in 15 games when he came back, didnt do much the next season but come on he cost nothing. Bellamy came and was sold on for a profit yet you deem him a failure. Johnson i believe is a success already, highest scoring right back in the prem. I think football has proved that by replacing a manager doesn't mean instant success look at newcastle and chelsea up until Ancelotti and we don't know how well theyll do when african nations. Teams like utd and arsenal who have kept the same manager have proven to have sustained success.

Also just because we are liverpool doesn't mean we can attract or afford the type of footballer we require/need. Morientes was third choice at the time, we wanted but couldnt afford David Villa, Pennant came because we couldn't afford Simao or Dani Alves according to the rumours at the time.

Ryan Babel was u21 European champs player of the tournemant, whom arsenal were originally interested in, who could predict he would end up how he has. Its all ifs buts and maybes i really dont know what you expect. Can i also add that Gillett whom you state in the article hasn't been here for 5 years either, so your article doesn't really make much sense when you say who can argue with Gillet or whatever.

At the end of the day look at us compared to UTD arsenal chelsea 5 years ago and look at us now and the gap has been closed down from being something like 21 points in his first season to 4 last year. People have to realise that while we improve others dont just stay the same. Think about it ay. Its not as black and white as oh hes spent this much we should win the league. Man city have spent more than our net spend in 1 transfer window.

Back the team, back the manager, back lucas leivra

YNWA

Guest said...

Never fails to amaze me this site.

If you own a house in full worth £200k and buy one for £400k, have you spent £200k on the house or £400k.

It may or may not be 'fallacious' as you allege, however it is basic maths and for all your posturing you don't seem to be able to grasp that.

C-

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I'm not missing the point at all - Liverpool's league position last season disproves your theory that the money Rafa has been given has meant that he is unable to compete or close the gap.  Let's break this down:

1. Your theory: Rafa has not had enough money to compete or close the gap.

2. Last season, Liverpool finished 2nd; highest ever premiership points total; fewest number of league games lost; most amount of goals scored in the league...

all of this whilst wasting 28m on Keane and Dossena.

Now - please explain how Rafa was unable to compete or close the gap?!

It is absolutely false to suggest such a thing!

Liverpool COMPETED and CLOSED THE GAP despite not spending money wisely in the summer!

imagine if that many HAD been spent wisely.

This just proves the opposite of what you're suggesting - money is not the be all and end all.  Liverpool proved that last season by competing/closing the gap DESPITE not spending allocated funds correctly.

This is the point.

To suggest that Liverpool can't compete because of money is blatantly false.

Rossi said...

Time to put up or shut up,

Put up what?

Shut up - WHat did he say?

Rossi said...

I will also add for abit of controversy, Dan Agger is he really a success, don't get me wrong - great player but over last 3 years he's rarely been fit, yet you pidgeon hole Degan who has also hardly played a failure even though he cost nothing. Same could be said for Aurelio injured more often than not. How can Riera be a failure - i agree he needs to pull his finger out but he had a good season last year

Garvin Nurse said...

But it means u now have 10k to put towards buying a new car as opposed to 0. Hence the reason ppl trade in cars before its to late. Not so Jaimie?

Rossi said...

'Factual Analysis' - Don't make me laugh - so by whos factual analysis was it to put Failure or Success, is it fact that Babel is a failre, 6 months ago you would have said benayoun was a failure. + your transfer fees i don't think quite add up, i thought we spent 6mill on Morientes not 8 and more like 8 not 6 on pennant. Factual Analysis- be serious is all this facts????

snappy said...

It's pointless to write an article about this subject without including the the question of wages because this is a BIG part of transfer-spending and the matter of quality-players you are able to attract.
There is a direct correlation between what's been paid in wages and where you end up in the table.With the exception of Arsenal on two occasions NO OTHER team has been nr 4 on the wages-list ( and we've been fourth for ages) and at the same time managed to win the PL - and Arsenal hasn't not done it since Roman took over Chelsea.Liverpool actually perform better than expected when you take this ( and you must do that) in consideration.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/chelsea/5436621/Chelsea-the-Premier-Leagues-biggest-spenders-with-172m-wage-bill.html

Guest said...

Heres one then?? How many players has he bought over 20 mil compared to Utd and Chelsea? So is it really about the net spend or how much he can spend per season??

Guest said...

stupid

anon said...

Why did you delete my comment Jamie?

Guest said...

stupid

Guest said...

stupid

Guest said...

stupid

Rossi said...

regurgitated media nonsense - Well whats half of your stuff

anon said...

More importantly: what do you want to see at liverpool?  Do you want to see a change of manager?  Are you seriously suggesting this?  If so, does this come down to bad transfer decisions or something else?  Is his record not good enough?  Do you think it would be good for the squad/club to lose Rafa?  If so, when?  And which of the coaches you named would you like to see replace him?

If all of these questions seem like silly 'what ifs' to you, perhaps you should reassess the type of articles you're putting up.  Is it in any way constructive or good for the club to have these negative articles attacking the manager every other day?  Is it constructive for any of us?

Quasimodo_84 said...

a> It is impossible for reserves of the Top 4 to break into the first team now - How many players have done so at Chelsea, United and Arsenal?
PS: Wasn't Ramsey bought from Cardiff, after his development was almost complete?
I could argue that Liverpool's reserves could cut it at Everton and Man City(well before the Sheikh's money etc etc), but that is a moot discussion as we will never know UNLESS Rafa's suggestion of Liverpool B-team playing in the lower leagues is implemented.
b> Rafa has had (roughly) 20m every summer to spend on multiple areas of the pitch, which isnt an awful lot. He has never had the kind of money united and Chelsea boast- the likes of spending 30m on a unproven talent(Rooney) or a man past his prime(Sheva).
SO, i think net spend is a good measure of Rafa's work here as it shows the struggle he has to balance the books every year, something United and Chelsea arent unduly worried about.
c> Coming to the issue of G&H, where was the 20m that was supposed to be given this summer? Aquilani's and Johnson's buys were funded by the sales of Alonso and Peter Crouch(yes). So, in effect, no extra money was afforded to Rafa meaning we started without decent cover at CB and a left winger like Silva, who could take the onus off Gerrard and Torres.
PS: Benayoun is most effective when he is playing against tired legs, so I prefer him as a sub.

Rossi said...

Agreed, if we could afford David Villa, I'm sure Rafa would want him. Utd and Chelsea for a few years now could have spent their whole budget on 1 player, whereas liverpool for years have always needed a few and thats not even taking into consideration the squad as a whole

strebby said...

Considering in 5 years rafa has only 2 of the players left at the club fromthe squad he inherrited £220 millions seems not a lot of money based on the sheer numbers he has brought in and out of the club, it has all been about trial and error, rafa for the most part has seen his mistakes early and tried to rectify them by getting rid of the players HE deems not good enough, also dont forget rafa is the ONLY manager of a top 4 club whilst dealing with the constant sniping of the press and so called pundits (zonal marking, rafa rotates needlessly he's a fool, fergie "rests" his players oh what a genius etc, etc) that has actually season on season gained more points than the previous season, that to me represents real progress and i for one am happy with any progress made. Every single transfer is a gamble we could all see what a class player morientes was, it just didnt work, we can all see what a class player robbie keane is, it just didnt work, we can look at all clubs and see massive high profile signings have not worked at clubs.

the point s compared to arsenal and utd rafa has had very little time( in comparison to wenger and fergie) to completely rebuild the club in his image, did fergie in his first 6 or 7 seasonswin much whilst rebuilding his team, for the last 10-12 years all fergie has had to do is buy 1 or 2 quality players to supplement the squad he has, i believe now rafa is at that point with our squad, all we need is tweaking, hlst i would be happy if we won the league, i think our expectations must be to be within a few points of the eventual winners, as rafa has said plenty of times, we cannot worry about things over which we have no control, i.e. other teams results, i trust in rafa i believe he will get us there.

Guest said...

I personally think some of the anti Rafa are hypocrites...
When he did something great, nobody writes about him...
BUT if the TEAM lost, all the fingers pointed towards him...
Be fair... i personally think Gerrard is not up to par...
He dislikes play in deep midfield... He likes to play along side Torres where we all know how great the partnership can be... How bout Carra? Torres? Monster Masch? All below PAR... So if u r a fan, have faith in ur manager and ur team... Its simple...

Jaimie Kanwar said...

How does that example prove anything?  What do you mean by 'worth/ 200k?  Was the house bought originally/inherited etc.  if it was bought:

1. Spend 200k on a house
2. Spend 400k on another house

Total spent = 600k

if you sell both for 1m, you end up with 400k profit BUT it doesn't change the fact that you originally spent 600k, does it?!

Guest said...

lol... you think that formation is the answer to leaving out Lucas, the current most effective tackler for Liverpool as well as one of the leading effective tacklers in BPL? stats dont lie...

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Actually, Rafa said in public many times that he wanted Keane.  Even AFTER he was sold, he said the same, as evidenced here --->>>

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/07/debunking-liverpool-fc-myths-no-1-rick.html

Alan from Ireland said...

2009/10/12 JS-Kit.com Comments <
js-kit-m2c-4SBNLF42EEPT1EIJ2C7I6AH6751KI86SCV5P1S0BRR6PBTF03CC0@reply.js-kit.com
This comment takes the biscuit, so the squad that Benitez built up over the
previous 4 years had nothing to do with Liverpool closing that gap? and your
basing it on one summer...to suggest that you claim Liverpool last season
closed the gap despite not spending allocated funds correctly. So the 180
million spent over the previous 4 years were not allocated correctly either
by your workings Jaimie.
"Now - please explain how Rafa was unable to compete or close the gap?!
It is absolutely false to suggest such a thing!"
He built the squad over time that is why he closed the squad. Alonso,Reina,
Mascherano, Skrtel, Insua, Aurelio, Riera, Kuyt, Torres, Benayoun, Lucas,
Babel, Torres, Skrtel, Agger, Arbeloa added to Gerrard, Carra and Hyypia
that remained from Houllier's squad. He took time to built that squad with 3
players leaving who contributed so much last season it will take time
besides Johnson who has taken like a duck to water to settle. We await with
anticpation for Aquilani to play.
Give the man credit he built a squad a budget over 4 years that competed
with two managers who have a combined 25+ years at the time he arrived in
English football plus megabucks Chelsea. I think you people live in cloud
cookoo land think a manager besides Benitez can do better on a 20 million
budget whilst balancing the books of a debt ridden club.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

It's a well-known expession, Rossi.

Stop adding sniping, pointless posts (there are a couple more on this thread).  If you have nothing to add to the debate, please refrain from clogging the thread.  Thanks. JK

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You posted this:

<span style="">Liverpool Kop  once again banging on about how Rafa isn't good enough and still unable to suggest better options.  'Truth' is dead right about the players counting as capital assets for the club, and equally that our squad is worth much more now than 5 years ago, not just because of market conditions but also because of the quality Rafa has brought to us. 
Guys, get a grip.  Your site, and you as individuals, are earning a reputation not only as anti-rafa but also as the cynical negative type of fans that are so disliked at the club.  I see 'jamie kanwar' and 'liverpool kop' mentioned on other sites frequently as examples of bad liverpool sites. 
This comment will probably be taken down by you but oh well, hope you read it and consider the reasons why people would say this. </span>

---------------

Read the comment policy below: if the majority of your post is moaning about how crap/negative this site is, it will be deleted.  Stick to the issues; if you have a problem with the site, by all means complain - but do so through the proper channels, as outlined in the comment policy.

I'm not interested in whether you think I'm a bad writer or this site is bad.  Good for you!  All I'm interested in is debating the issues.  if you disagree, argue your case.  if you want to waste speace moaning about pointless things, there are plenty of Liverpool message boards on the net where you can do that.

This message will also be deleted in 15 minutes.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Once again, why is a comparison with Man/Chelsea relevant?!  It is blatantly just a way for you and other fans to deflect attention away from the real issues!

At what point does the manager start to take responsibility; at what point do you STOP saying 'but what about Chelsea etc'.

Clearly, the only way you will stop deflecting the issue is when every team in the league has exactly the same amount of money to spend (!)

Until then, you will just continue making excuses.

anon said...

Ok, so is feedback better sent by email? 

anon said...

The point is- context is important.  The context for judging our manager's decisions is managers of clubs with comparable ambitions (Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Utd, etc).  Do we expect a perfect manager with zero mistakes?  No.  We expect a manager who does a decent job with what he has.  Again- context is important.  What does he have?  What does he achieve? And what do those with comparable ambitions achieve with more or less than what our manager has?

Weller said...

Liverpool closed the gap last year because Chelsea had a shocking start and a mangerial change not because we improved greatly.

I think what we are getting at is that he hasn't had the funds to spend big on real quality. He has only once and he captured Torres amongst far better offers from the Europes elite. Glen Johnson i have no doubt will also prove to be a great success.

He has spent too much on some dross to be fair. £2million here and there when it was sutely better to bleed our youngsters or not bother making these signings at all.

WE have not had the big money to spend and as a consequence we dont have the strength in depth and rely heavily on maybe 13 players.

Rafa has made some shocking signings Jamie but i believe if he had access to a bulk of money as opposed to dribs and drabs he would never have signed half of those players in the first place.

Liv'pool said...

Is it impossible to understand that it makes a BIG difference if your budget is 229 million without selling or 229 after selling players for 112.5 million. That means Rafa has got only 116.5 million in 5 years and the rest has come from player sales. Considering the fact that only two players from the 2004 side are still playing in Liverpool Rafa has had to change almost every player. It's obvious that he has made few mistakes but mostly he's done a good job.
 Rafa's got usually around 20 millin per to spend and the rest has come from player sales. And when you sell a player you need to buy a new one who plays in the same position. It's not like you get the money for free. You lose a player so you have to buy a new one. That makes a big difference because you need to use at least some part of the money to replace the player that left. And let's not forget that you are lookig for a better player than the previous one so it could cost much more than what you got from selling. That makes the process of changing a poor Liverpool team to a succesful one a very long task.
   When you have to change almost the whole team and have a limited amount of money to spend spend it takes a while and sometimes you have to gamble. Top players cost top money. If you don't have that kind of money you have to take a risk. Usually cheap players are not as good as the expensive ones. There are exceptions of course but then you have to get lucky.
  Only now has Rafa got into a position that he can use the whole budget (if he had any) into one player. That's what for exemple United have been able to do for years They have been able to put the whole amount of money they got to buy one player cause they have had a complete squad already and they haven't needed to buy more than one or two players. It's much easier to succeed when you have 30 million to spend for one player than when you have 30 million to spend for 4 or 5 players.
   If Glen Johnson doesn't get injured he's a big success. That's what you get when you have a big money to spend for one player. Let's hope Aquilani is able to make similar impact.

anon said...

Quite.  Benitez is clearly a great manager and has taken the club/squad in a positive direction.  We're at risk of losing him and that's not good!

Guest said...

JK is a tw@t - FACT.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Rafa hasn't had the fund to spend big?!

20m on Keane - is that not big bucks?

17m on Johnson

18m on Mascherano

20m (fee + add-ons) for Aquilani

Can we please drop this myth that Rafa has not had the money to spend big.  No one forced him to spend 20m on Keane, or a combined 28m on Keane and Dossena.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

What had Arsene Wenger won before joining Arsenal?  NOTHING.

What did Guardiola win as a manager before taking charge at Barcelona?  NOTHING.

What did Rijkaard win before managing Barca? NOTHING

Conversely, look at the record of someone like Juande Ramos - At Sevilla he won trophies, then failed at Spurs.

Trophies won prior to management is not an accurate indicator of future success.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

When the team does great, no one writes about it?  Right, so I guess the  thousands of websites/forums/newspapers etc out there never give the Liverpool team any praise when victories are achieved?! 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Of course - Rafa can do no wrong; he's perfect; he's irreplaceable; he is the second coming of Christ; we should worship at his altar and never question him EVER, as that would surely be blasphemy...

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Be that as it may, who is the better central midfielder?

Exactly.

Quasimodo_84 said...

He prolly meant no one ON THIS WEBSITE writes about it ;)

lucky said...

if u see only 117 million pound is spended in 6 yrs that not enough . if u compare chelsea i think they have spended in 1 year .

Guest said...

another rubbish article, i am not coming back here again.

Alan from Ireland said...

So with Wenger winning the French League in his first season in charge of
Monaco and the French Cup 3 years later is winning nothing...while before he
came to Arsenal he was a manager for 12 years while Guardiola was a reserve
manager and Rijkaard failed as Holland manager but became a success at
Barcelona. Ramos has had a lot of success despite his Spurs reign where he
did win a trophy.

anon said...

Stop being a negative, cynical anti-fan and actually re-read my comment.  Rafa HAS undeniably brought the club in a positive direction.  He's loved by a lot of fans.  Losing him would not be good right now.  If you disagree with that answer the questions I posted above and we'll find out what your solution is.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No!  Please don't go!  How will the site ever recover from your loss?

Jevon Johnson said...

Oh look here.....
Even if he has spent that amount, its not even close to the other teams spending.
It makes a difference if your competition spends 3 times more than you can, even if that is only true of ONE season.

Hmmm... said...

Oi. That is my nickname!

Jevon Johnson said...

EVERY single time the press has something to say about Liverpool it is invariably told in a negative way.

Whenever we hand a team a whipping, they say the other team played badly.
It like most of the press are paid by another big football club.

Guest said...

It has been glaringly obvious that in games we have struggled in this season we have lost control in midfield.It is no coincidence that lucas and masch have partnered eachother in these games! Alonso is a big loss,he could dictate play. Gerrard is the only player currently available who is capable of taking control in this area, lucas and masch dont have this ability. We will see how Aquilani shapes up( fingers crossed). Therefore for now Gerrard needs to play in midfield. It is open to debate who should partner him, I can see the merits of using Lucas in the easier home games against defensive opposition i.e Hull. But is he a better player than Mash? I cant see the cream of europe making any 20 million plus offers for him!

Guest said...

The fact of the matter is Liverpool are a much stronger club and team since Rafa took over, we have plenty of asset's on the pitch. That continuity has helped us improve hugely and that will only get better, there is no manager in the Prem with as much support from the fans. People who don't matter will always try to create a frenzy but Liverpool just keeps rolling, yes it's been a bad start but we are still well in touch. Come January we could have the Saudi money and a stadium being built, along with a couple of new players, keep the faith lads.

Alan from Ireland said...

It's this type of thing that will come and bite you in the ass my friend.
Karma is a bitch and you will find that out some day!
Best of look in your endeavours but like Dunk you will be found out sooner
or later.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Give over, Alan - it's called having a sense of humour.  if you can't hack having your opinion challenged then go to TIA or RAWK or some other message board where you have more chance of having your ego massaged.

You can denigrate this site all you want with your cheap jibes but it's clear that you are just throwing your toys out of your pram because I'm not agreeing with you.

Guest said...

jk, you have failed to answer any of the main criticisms of the article, such as:
- the initial value and current value of the squad, as well as money recouped have to be considered in determining the success or otherwise of a transfer policy;
- the spending of rivals is absolutely relevant as this is one of the factors that determines success or failure;
- the inclusion of player wages, and therfore the overall cost of a player, is a much more representative way of assessing success or failure.

Does the fact that noone seems to agree with you not lead you to have a rethink?

Guest said...

I wonder if its worth arguing anything here. There have been enough arguments to negate the views put forward by you, and good ones at that. But you choose to be too stoneheaded to understand anything. Unlike you most of the fans have some optimism atleast. In Rafa we trust!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I have answered the first two points on several occasions in this thread.  re the third point - yes, the inclusion of salaries would be instructive, but since there is no way find that info because it is not published, it is not a relevant topic of discussion.

having said that, why is a player's salary so important to whether they are considered a success or a failure?

AREOPAGITICA said...

Is the writer the Alex Miller who was brought in by Houllier,who "left" the club in 2008 to coach in Japan and who was sacked after a string of poor results?

Guest said...

You have  not counted the 'undisclosed' fees in the money recouped, so how can you tell what the net spend is?

And yes, there have been some failures - who would have thought that Morientes would not be a fantastic signing? And Bellamy seems to be doing fine, for the time being, down the road. But there have also been some spectacular successes,  -Aurelio for free! Alonso, Torres?

Although not many kids are coming through, the youth teams and reserves have on the whole been doing well. It is much easier to get into the Everton team, because there is not such good competition, or such expectation. And  wasn't Ramsey bought, rather than nurtured? Or am I thinking of Wilshire?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You should stop seeing it in terms of 'negating' opposing views.  It's about discussion, not forcing people to change their opinion.  And just because you're clearly part of the RCDNW brigade doesn't mean everyone should be.

Brando said...

he also said the club had spent that much on keane , not himself. Suggesting he was not happy how the funds had been spent.

Mr. E. said...

Ehhhh... 2m for Diouf?? where did you get that figure??

guest said...

Im sorry why is this offical? in any way shape or form

Juan said...

I find it amusing that you choose to ignore certain peoples comments.

I would be very interested to hear a reply to my comment above but somehow I doubt you could provide a valid retort??

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Which comments have I ignored? Please make a list of the points.  Some people make the same points as each other so i don't answer 8everything* as I would just repeating myself.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Furthermore, I didn't write the article; your earlierr comment is adressed to the author, Alex Miller.

Guest said...

Since the purchase of Torres (first big money signing) Rafa has finally been authorised to make "Utd / Chelsea" level signings of great quality i.e.

20m on Keane - didn't work out but cant deny his quality 
 
17m on Johnson 
 
18m on Mascherano 
 
20m (fee + add-ons) for Aquilani 
My point is Rafa has only had the money to spend big in the past 1.5 years and since then we came 2nd in the league. All we need now (like Rafa has recently said) is to spend big money on two great players to add to the squad as it has finally got to a competetive level.

Chelsea and Utd have been spending 20m+ on 2-3 players per season for at least 4 seasons, to add to squads which were already at the competetive top.

Do you agree that two more great players would more than likely make the difference i.e. two of these: Augero, Villa, Silva, Ribery, Ramos (play GJ right wing), A.Young, Hamisk, Defour???

Guest said...

Since the purchase of Torres (first big money signing) Rafa has finally been authorised to make "Utd / Chelsea" level signings of great quality i.e.  
 
20m on Keane - didn't work out but cant deny his quality   
   
17m on Johnson   
   
18m on Mascherano   
   
20m (fee + add-ons) for Aquilani   
My point is Rafa has only had the money to spend big in the past 1.5 years and since then we came 2nd in the league. All we need now (like Rafa has recently said) is to spend big money on two great players to add to the squad as it has finally got to a competetive level.  
 
Chelsea and Utd have been spending 20m+ on 2-3 players per season for at least 4 seasons, to add to squads which were already at the competetive top.  
 
Do you agree that two more great players would more than likely make the difference i.e. two of these: Augero, Villa, Silva, Ribery, Ramos (play GJ right wing), A.Young, Hamisk, Defour???

Read more: <span style="color: #940f04;">http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/official-rafa-benitez-has-spent-over.html#ixzz0TkMHvHQJ</span>

Guest said...

Another good wind up and lots of people biting, its all good for the website hit rate

Paul said...

Utter tripe.

Succes?? Failure??  all nonsense.  You got Riera down as a failure?  He's been a first team regular in our best seasons performance in 20 years???

Here's a fact for you.  We have improved every single year under Rafa.  WTF more do you want?  We haven't had the money we needed to buy our way to the top so he's had to it more step by step.

Rafa has been excellent for Liverpool.

Why am I not surprised to see another dig at Liverpool on this supposedly Liverpool site ;)

Matty said...

Personality issues aside, why not Rafa?

Guest said...

My point exactly. When Rafa gets money tpo spend big he hasn't done badly. And as i said in the last reply

Keane is the only one of those big money siginings to be classed as a failure. Why he didn't work out is beyond me. What i can say is that in games he did play he was largley very poor. Running around like a headless chicken. Ultimately Keane has failed at the two biggest clubs he has joined Us and Inter. Mediocrity and Spurs suit him. Big fish and small pond spring to mind.

You've got some really good points Jaimie and i take them on board but you are in danger of becoming a ranter for the sake of it. Some of those Managers you listed as potential successors were simply ridiculous. Of course Liverpool would be succesful without Rafa but he needs stability behind the scenes before we can really judge him.
If Rafa was to go then i am a fan of Mourinho and he would be one of only a few around that are up to the Liverpool job.

Juan said...

Well then why isnt the author defending the content of the article instead of you?

You are quick to defend the article example: your response to Davids point above "Why is it misleading?".

However then when it suits you say you didnt write the thing. So why are you defending it then? Let the author do it.

happy_red said...

Here we go again. let's have a go at the manager because I am better than him.
Paul Tomkins has already done a (much more in depth) analysis of Rafa's spending. He also had the foresight to place things in the context of other managers and in the context of the situation Rafa found himself in. That includes players like Owen disappearing off outside of Rafa's control for no money after spending a whole season promising to sign a new contract. Houliier bought the complete flop Cisse for 14 million and left rafa with a massive headache.

The various transfer shenanigans due to lack of communication with the owners and the incompetence of Parry left us on more than one occasion in trouble (Simao and Alonso/Barry spring to mind).

The fact that ALL managers have a series of failures - high and low profile - seems to have been omitted from your 'report'. Veron for Utd is an obvious mention.

I won't repeat the analysis, but for those interested, the link is here:
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG163483090304-1429.htm
 

Matty said...

Spot on. He will be found out even if there's one sucker born every minute.

If a player was bought for £20m and sold in the next transfer window for £100m that would be counted as £20m wasted as the player in question didn't help the club win trophies. That money could have been spent better. Brilliant logic.

I'm done here.

Juan said...

Also why has the word "Official" been removed from the title.

Official made the content seem matter of fact, that a conclusive study had been undertaken by someone with indepth knowledge on the subject matter. Yet there are inaccurate transfer figures, numerous player transfers out of the club left out. The article is no more matter of fact but a badly unresearched piece that the author is trying to pass as matter of fact.

To me thats bad journalism mate

Klutch said...

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Jaimie your arguments are so pathetic that they made me laugh…. I’ll give you some example 1. You have added our current squad players are expenditures but fail to account for them when you’re adding up. This might be a little hard for you to understand but when you buy a run-down house for $100,000 and spend $50,000 to fix it, yes your expenditures are $150,000 BUT if that same house that was worth $100,000 is now valued are $200,000 you have made a $50,000 profit, have you not? Granted unless you sell that house your $150,000 down but when a bank reviews your account they look at you expenditures (150,000) – your assets (200,000 and they get your value = (50,000). So as you can see below I have taken our current players that you put down as expenditures and have reduced or added to their current value (* current value according to me are in brackets and as u can see they are not over the top).</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span></span>
<span><span style="">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Alberto Aquilani – £20m (20m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Glen Johnson – £18m (18m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Albert Riera – £8m</span><span style=""><span style="color: #000000;"><span style=""> (5m)</span></span></span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Martin Skrtel – £6.5m (10m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Andrea Dossena – £7m (4m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">David Ngog – £1.5m (1.5m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Diego Cavalieri – £3m (3m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Lucas Leiva – £6m (4m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Yossi Benayoun – £5m (8m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Ryan Babel – £11.5m (8m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Fernando Torres – £22m (40m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Javier Mascherano – £17m (30m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Fabio Aurelio – free (5m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Dirk Kuyt – £10m (12m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Daniel Agger – £5.8m (10m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Pepe Reina – £6m (15m)</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">Total = 147.3m - (193.5m) = 46.2M</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> 
</span></span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> 

Klutch said...

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">The 2<sup>nd</sup> point that made me laugh was the couches you named. Some such as Copello, Lippi and Hiddink would never come as they are happy in their current jobs. But when you named Koeman I couldn’t stop laughing, are you talking about the same Koeman that brought Valencia to its knees? You’re a joke. But the best was seeing Mourinho name on that list then I knew you know nothing about football. Hmmm if according to you Rafa has wasted too much money then why would you want Mourinho? He has bought such great talents at Chelsea such as .SWP (20M), Ferreira (13.2), Del Horno (8M), Shevchenko (30M), Kalou (3M) Malouda (16M) and at Inter Mancini, Quaresma (18M) <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></span>

Klutch said...

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style="">The 2<sup>nd</sup> point that made me laugh was the coaches you named. Some such as Copello, Lippi and Hiddink would never come as they are happy in their current jobs. But when you named Koeman I couldn’t stop laughing, are you talking about the same Koeman that brought Valencia to its knees? You’re a joke. But the best was seeing Mourinho name on that list then I knew you know nothing about football. Hmmm if according to you Rafa has wasted too much money then why would you want Mourinho? He has bought such great talents at Chelsea such as .SWP (20M), Ferreira (13.2), Del Horno (8M), Shevchenko (30M), Kalou (3M) Malouda (16M) and at Inter Mancini, Quaresma (18M) <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></span>

Guest said...

The reason Liverpool are under the cosh is because the media can see the improvement in the squad and team, If we were rubbish nobody would talk about us. We are now a threat when fully fit to every team in the league, If the Saudi deal goes through can you imagine Rafa shopping in Harrods rather than Aldi?. we can now buy 1 quality player each season and keep the others to get even stronger, we are so close to finishing the job now that this is the time to remain calm. Rafa knows exactly what he wants to do , with the money to do it.

Guest said...

There is another point to consider when talking about spend .. according to your figures, LFC have 'net spent' 117m pound. This, however, does not take into account the value of the players currently at the club, which I daresay would easily top that figure. If you look at Torres and Gerrard alone, their combined transfer value would be around 80m in the current market (yes, Stevie G was already at the club when Rafa joined, but his value has rocketed in the last couple of years, with at least some credit due to Rafa for this. Combined with the rest of the players, our squad has a net worth way in excess of moneys spent.

Surely this point should be factored in somewhere?

Guest said...

put up or shut up?

shut up wum

Delaney said...

'You are basically suggesting that it is okay to waste money as long as you make money back in the future, no?'

No, it's not even close to suggesting that. You can spend money you don't have yet. In many cases Benitez has had to sell to buy, wait for end of season funds etc. I would understand your arguement if he had £120 million up front to spend on players, but that has been generated over the years, much of which have come through profits from players who you consider 'failures'. If bellamy is signed for 6.5 and sold for 7.5 million a year later (as you suggest) it in my eyes cannot be considered a failed signing. Also, I fail to understand how free transfers can be considered failures, very harsh considering it was obviously due to lack of funds at the club. In my eyes, a player isn't a failed signing if he's better than the player he's replacing, and there are few players who were sold by Rafa and not replaced by a player of equal or more talent. For example, do you think Josemi and Kromkamp would have come to the club if he had the 18million at the time to sign a player of Johnson's CURRENT ability (I've emphasised current as I do understand that he could have been signed for a fraction of that at the time, but poor form and the fact Chelsea would be reluctant to sell anybody to Liverpool mean it wasn't ever likely for him to sign for us). The fact he has only had 20 million average per seasons for 6 seasons that was available for him to spend and improve a team that had Djimi Traore and Milan Baros as key players, and has not only caught up to, but also came very close to matching the league champions Man Utd at the time, who had a fantasic squad in place and plenty of money to strengthen further, as well as the heavy spending Chelsea, is a mightily impressive feat.

All in all, your argument is pretty poor.
<div id="TixyyLink" style="border: medium none; overflow: hidden; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; text-align: left; text-decoration: none;">
Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/official-rafa-benitez-has-spent-over.html#ixzz0TktpuXRV
</div>

Klutch said...

HAHAH he had nothing to say... nice one

Delaney said...

What if you buy a house for £10k, sell it for £30k 2 years later, and buy a £30k house, sell it for £100k 3 years later, and buy a house worth £100k, and sell for £200k be£fore buying a new house for £200k would that mean that you had spent 340k on your house??? (if you only had 10 grand to start with, then you obviously can't buy the house you currently live in, the £200k house, because the money needs to be raised over a period of time.)
Again, Rafa never has 220million in his hand and told to build a team. He was given a budget, and tried to improve that budget by buying and selling players at a profit while at the same time making sure he had players to play in his team all season. Now look at it the sensible way.

Delaney said...

With the car thing, your assuming you already have 20k cash to spend on a car, but your using that as your comparable GROSS spend. At no time did Rafa have £220million in his pocket. Its not like he spent 220, and sold them all for 140 '3 years later' as your example for the car was. You have no realistic grasp of money, you've shown that. You talk about NET and GROSS spend, but GROSS spend isn't money that just magically appears and is given to someone, spent, and then recouped. Generally you start with a low figure, slowly make more until you can spend/invest in certain aspects of a business/football club (both apply) and then continue to make more money throught the year, again investing when necessary and possible. If you take a minute to think about it and admit the possibility that you've misjudged and misunderstood the situation I would be very impressed, but somehow I doubt it.
<span>“The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance.”</span>
<p style="padding-top: 3px;"><img src="http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as3.gif" title="Author Popularity 6/10"/> Samuel Butler quotes<span> (English novelist, essayist and critic, 1835-1902)</span>

Delaney said...

Also, if you reply to me, please don't dodge the bullet and try and pick holes in my typing/wording of my comments. I've been in work since 6 and although I understand you may want to discredit me and move on, I'd actually like to hear you address the actual points I've made and give your opinion about THEM, not me.

CY said...

lol. ok I appreciate JK for trying to bring some entertainment that is the reason why we folks actually read his blog anyway.

however, although im anti-rafa, the argument that rafa has had alot to spend is rather wrong.

the main point here is not the average net figure of 20 million per season, its more of a matter of cash flow. rafa could only afford aquilani after the alonso deal, rmb how the media said rafa lined up aquilani in place for alonso only if alonso gets sold?

so for example this season, rafa apparently had 40 million to spend on aquilani + johnson, but the key to the anaylsis here is that had alonso not be sold, the money for aquilani would nv had came. he only had 20 million to spend anyway, which is why he bought johnson at first. thus it would not have been possible to have bought a 40 million player such as de rossi/aguero/villa to add to the squad given his tight budget as he did not have 40 milllion at his disposal at ONE TIMEFRAME despite him doing a NET SPENDING of 40 million.

so extending this to over the 4 or 5 transfer window that rafa has had, there were alot of times when cash flow was severely impaired and he probably had only 5-10 million to spend at one time, that is why he always opts for lower standard players.

JK's argument is very correct in that rafa could have done better if he had actually 20 million to spend every season and he should have bought 5 20 million players to liverpool. yes liverpool would be superb now  had that been the case, but unfortunately as mentioned above, his argument is fundamentally flawed because he could not simply have bought 5 20 million players as he did not have all the resources at the correct time to actually make that sort of purchases, making his spending inefficient and very much reactive/responsive to the amt of money he had. (this is especially messy if u think about the money he needs to generate from selling players, you dont just hey i wanna sell my ryan babel for 5 million and immediately get the cash tmr its not a cash purchase u need to find buyers, contracts need to be negotiated etc)

I dun have exact figures to substantiate, but u guys probably get my drift.

Thus rafa has done a decent job with his purchase and as many has argued, the current value of the team has definitely risen since the time he took over could u believe we had bolo zenden starting for the milan game? I totally disagree with robbie keane as well but i guess that could not have been forseen.

but yes i am ANTI RAFA because i hate LUCAS and KUYT they are not skillful and should be sold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! liverpool needs a creative right wing!!!!

Guest said...

Of course it affects how Rafa spends his money! We compete for the same top players!!! Example???? I can think of two off the top of my head straight away!

Vidic - Wanted by Rafa was taken by man u due to lack of funds
Malouda - Wanted by Rafa was taken by Chelsea due to lack of funds

By not being able to capture his 1st choice players Rafa then has to purchase 2nd and 3rd choice players, which decreases their chance of being successful!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR SHOULD I GO MORE SLOWLY.... ;)

Marco said...

I don't want to get into the details of it but I agree with the article in the sense that fans seem to complain alot about being hugely disadvantaged in terms of transfer funds when this clearly isn't the case. This is what the article is adressing, the fact that unlike people say, there clearly has been money to spend. Bringing profit and net spend into it is beside the point.

Guest said...

Kanwar os a man utd wum

Andy said...

This is a joke of an article. It’s so easy to sit back and criticise the decisions made in hindsight but again you have not taken all the facts and circumstances in to account. I am not even going to bother about your success or failure rating as I agree this is opinion. But the key fact you have omitted here is that Rafa purchased a lot of these players because of the funds he had available. He needed to build a squad with very limited resources and in all likely hood would never have purchased these players if more funds were available. It is easy to buy a good player when you can afford to spend 20 million pounds plus for every purchases, but when you need to bring in 3 or 4 players and only have 20 million to spend you have to take more risk and therefore end up with more failures. If you look at net spending over the last 5 years you will see United and Chelsea (and Tottenham to for that matter) have all spent more than Liverpool.

Therefore in my opinion when you look at all the facts around the players Rafa has purchased you will actually see he has built a team that last year came very close to bringing the league title back to Anfield, however if you chose to only look at selected facts you can quite easily manipulate the data to come to the conclusion you want which is clearly what has been done with this article.

Almino said...

Take a step back and realise that all negative press about LFC is a compliment to the fan base.

What provokes a response more than anything? Negative press. Articles like these get debates going, riles people up and because we are the biggest club in the world it leads to more hits on this site, more papers sold, more message posts etc. People have to make a living. The business of sites like these are getting hits. 

Who do some top newspaper writers want to write for? The s*n, why? Because it sells the most and has the highest readership. It prints lies that SELL papers.

What this article fails to realise IMHO is that when you are not spending top dollar on players you invariably increase the risk of them being "failures". There are times when Rafa has had top dollar for players, most of them were no brainers even for our idiot owners. (Masch had proved how important he was with performances, Torres was coveted by all of Europe we are lucky he wanted to come to us, Johnson was PFA right back of the year) Other than Keane, who like Morientes, we all thought would add to the team, but it just didn't work out. It happens, get over it, sell up, move on. UNlike Houllier who persisted persisted and persisted. Kuyt was a scapegoat and now he had proved his worth. Lucas will do the same.

You cannot deny that we wanted Alves, but we couldn't afford him, but if we did stretch to the amount they wanted how much would have added in value to our team? Simao's price was increased at the final minute, of course we shouldn't take that lying down.

What Rafa has done well is overhaul the squad gradually, whilst going for cup runs to get success in the short term in the initial seasons and now going for the league with a better squad. Anything less than a title challenge this season is unacceptable. He has taken risks on sub-top quality players but managed to get profits on most of them when they haven't worked out, or kept mistakes to a minimum. 

You can't expect him to pay £20m on one player per season, just to say "look every player I have bought is class". This is unrealistic and we wouldn't have even finished fourth with this policy. The club refused to pay £17m for Barry, yet fork out £20m for Keane....tell me was that Rafa's decision? Honestly? 

I think for correctness you should add the missing players in the sold list. Milan Baros, Steve Finnan and others that have mentioned already. Genuine question is why have they been missed out? If the research was from multiple sites like you say then surely ONE of those sites had the Finnan sale? We only spent a big amount on Aquilani as a result of the sale of Alonso. Johnson is undoubtedly class and was an expensive signing that has done well.

I do agree that there has not been enough quality youth to push through, and that he should give them more of a chance. But at the same I do have high hopes for Pacheco, Ngog, Amoo, Eccleston. Even Ayala impressed me. So the future is bright. The academy needs to start delivering players good enough for the first team that is the job first and foremost. I can't exactly recall when all the changes occurred but we have been appointing key staff as recently as last season so, even after 5 years, there is still a lot of work to be done. I know we demand results in the short term, but the youth system was dire and it has taken this long to complete all the changes. Rafa is thinking long term for the best interests in the club. Look at what Fergie and Wenger have done with long stints at their club, let us show patience and see what Rafa can achieve.

Don't get me started on local talent in this country. The reason why English talent is so overpriced? Supply and demand, there are hardly any good players so the price is sky [...]

Aiyic said...

Let's say you have a budget of 20k to get your kitchen done up. You want to have it done by Christmas (insert any deadline) for guests to admire at your parties. Now imagine it gets done, and you don't like the lay-out, or colour, or whatever, and your friends are not fawning over your new kitchen like you'd hoped. So you decide to start from scratch

Now let's say that you manage to sell it on for 17k...no hang on...let's say you manage to actually make money on it, and sell it for 22k - would you say that your kitchen venture was a success, because you made two grand?

Guest said...

SORRY MATE YOU ARE AN IDIOT

Jaimie Kanwar said...

1.5 years?  Rafa bought Torres over 2 years ago now, so that should be starting point for big money signings.

I agree in theiry that a couple more players would do the trick, but there's no guarantee that Benitez would use the properly.

We would already have an extra star player if the 20m on keane had been spent better.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You are just making excuses.

FREE TRANSFERS

How is the Philipp Degen transfer anything but a failure?  He has been earning big bucks every week for over a year now, and for what?  Zip.  he has contributed NOTHING. Same goes for Andrei Voronin.  The wage money wasted on those two could've been spent on wages for a better player, i.e. someone who would actually contribute.  Just because a player is free does not preclude the possibility that they can fail.

PLAYERS BETTER THAN THEIR PREDECSSORS

You don't consider a player a failure if they are better than who they're replacing?!

So - the judgment of a player stops as soon as they sign?!  That must be the case, because if player X is signed to replace player Y, and player X is better than player Y, then player X - according to you - can nver be classed as a failure.

Do you realise how illogical this sounds?! 

JOSEMI AND KROMKAMP

Yes, I believe they would've come to the club if Benitez had big bucks back then.  By the time Rafa signed Degen, he'd spent big on the likes of Torres and Mascherano.  Didn't stop him signing Voronin either, did it?  or Arbeloa.  or Lucas.  Or Kyriakos.  or Ngog.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any relevant sense.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Delaney - first of all, what is your problem?  I never pick holes in typing wording, so don't accuse of doing so.  And I always address the issues, not individuals, so what are you going on about?

And once again, how is any of what you're saying relevant?  You're just muddying the issues instead of seeing the truth.

Where did you get this notion about having X amount of money to spend at a given time (i.e. in this case, 220m).  Who has argued that this was ever the case.

We have to look at the actual money Rafa has spent and decide if it has been spent well AT THE TIME.

And I'm sorry, but the following is just not reality:

You talk about NET and GROSS spend, but GROSS spend isn't money that just magically appears and is given to someone, spent, and then recouped. Generally you start with a low figure, slowly make more until you can spend/invest in certain aspects of a business/football club (both apply) and then continue to make more money throught the year, again investing when necessary and possible.

So who did Rafa have to sell to buy Torres then?  Who did he sell to buy Mascherano?  Glen Johnson?  Keane?

Xabi Alonso aside, Liverpool rarely make big money on players, so your argument that you start low and make money to invest has no real foundation in fact.

The club gave Rafa big bucks to sign Torres, Keane, Masch and Johnson; he didn't sell to buy those players.

In any eventy, the only thing that matters is how much was spent at the time, and was the player successful.

* 20m on Keane.  Liverpoo may have recouped some money later but - for the love of god - this does not change the fact that a mistake was made and 20m wasted at the time!

And as I kep saying - Because Rafa wasted that money, Liverpool lost out  FOR A WHOLE SEASON on the services of a DIFFERNT player who could have been the difference between winning a trophy and being trophyless, wich is in fact what happened.

Everyone going on about net spend is completely ignoring the loss of benefit Liverpool have suffered because of Rafa's duf signings.  In the same way that Liverpool have benefited as a result of Torres, they have suffered because Benitez has bought the wrong players.

To really underline the point, let's just imagine Rafa had bought, say, Andrei Arshavin for 20m instead Robbie Keane.  (After the Euros, he was going for that amount). Based on his performance at Arsenal, is it possible that Arshavin could've had a MAJOR IMPACT for Liverpool?  YES?  Is it possible he could've been the difference between winning nothing and winning something?  YES.

THIS is why the Keane money was wasted.

It is NOT about net spend, it is about the opportunites and potential success Liverpool lost out on as a result of spending the money unwisely.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I'm merely joining the debate.  Sue me.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

What's 'spot on' about that comment, Matty? 

Where is the incentive to increase the 'hit -rate'?  it must be the advertising, right? increasing the hit-rate means more money is made. 

Oh wait, THERE IS NO ADVERTISING ON THE SITE.

Or did you neglect to notice that?

This is an advertising free zone.  Advertising on websites irritates me, hence none on this site.  I could make lots of money out of this site if I wanted to but I'm not in it for money - I'm in for the discussion; canvassing the different views of fans. 

re your point - First, it's not a realistic example - and will never be a realistic example, so it's not worth considering.

I've already explained how loss of benefit during the failed player's time at the club needs to be factored; this is a point you and many others are (deliberately) failing to consider.

Guest said...

Very interesting and quite a funny debate. A few points

Benitez won Champions league with a squad he inherited and has now totally disintegrated. He hasn't done much apart from that in terms of winning anything important.

Last season was a good season because of two players Gerrard and Torres. Without them all analysis would be meaningless as this liverpool squad would be nowhere near the top.

Has any other manager chopped and changed to this extent over a period of 4-5 years? What is the budget that people like O'Neill or Hodgson work on? Wouldn't a manager want to have stability in the squad?

Would it have made more sense to buy Ashley young over Babel? Why didn't benitez sign a guy like Palacios?  the reason he has to buy and sell is because he doesn't have a scouting network that can identify great players. Nor does he have the ability to judge how good a player can be in his own system.

He has also failed to get the best out of players like Bellamy and Keane. Perhaps he wanted to turn them into Kuyt clones and failed.

Except this year liverpool has been a boring defensive team that scored a lot of goals in some games where the opposition capitulated. But failed to beat any good defence. The popularity of the park the bus policy is a result of the success achieved by people like Mourinho and Benitez. It certainly encourages the smaller clubs to do the same as it allows them to survive and even nick a few upsets

Youth development will take time but there doesn't seem to be any hope in the near future. 

Overall Benitez is one of the worst managers I can think of. 

wirat said...

Rafa Stat Since 2001-2002
Valencia
2001-02 La Liga Champions
2002-03 5th Place
2003-04 La Liga Champions, Uefa Cup Winners
Liverpool
2004-05 UEFA Champions League winners, League Cup Runner-Ups
2005-06 FA Cup Winners
2006-07 UEFA Champions League Runner-Ups
2007-08 UEFA Champions League Semi-Finalists
2008-09 Premier League Runner-Ups with the club record of 86 points
Do we have to start from zero again?
things start to click but someone is never happy.
Ereryone wants a quick success. I firmly believe stability is the key.
What if alex furguson was sacked/quited Man u when he'd won virtually nothing in the first few years in charge. Oh, what if..........

wirat said...

"Last season was a good season because of two players Gerrard and Torres. Without them all analysis would be meaningless as this liverpool squad would be nowhere near the top." I thought last season those 2 keys players u mentioned being sidelined by a number of injuries. They only started 14 league games together, right? Another issue, who makes Stevie G a 20-goal/season player. Who bought F9T and making him one of the best striker in the world. Torres was not a 20,30-goal a season player before joining Liverpool.

parrot said...

poor poor comments.
rafa gave us the champions league which Jose Mourinho,Arsene Wenger can't do for either Chelsea/Arsenal.It took SAF more than 10 years to grab his.We've got money to sign Johnson is because of the transfer fee owed by Portsmouth for the sale of Peter Crouch.Plus the fact that Riera is not a failure.Barca wanted him,how could the finest team in the game want someone which is branded failure?And why is Bellamy failure if we sold him for more than the fee we bought him?

Growler said...

Guys, why is everyone getting upset? this guy is obviously a manc, who has gone to a lot of effort to destabilise the club.  Just look at the information and his judgement of success and failure! He obviously has no idea about the inner workings of the club, or indeed any club.

Perhaps he knows of a manager who has brought through kids where they are not good enough and made them good enough.

Perhaps he can show those kids that Rafa has let go and have gone onto lead other teams?

Guest said...

oh total shit!
robbie fowler was never a failure

Paggles said...

What a load of rubbish. Compare those other successful coaches with their playing roster - Barcelona, Chelsea... please! And the others have proven nothing at the highest level. Rafa's record at Valencia is incredible - absolutely outstanding. And his record at Liverpool is damn good. Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal have had great sides - to blame Rafa is infantile. His record in the Champs League has been awesome. Find another hobby, pal.

Guest said...

So Jamie you can guarantee that if you were the manager any player that you bought would be a success and rarely injured?  The answer would have to be NO as nothing in life is certain.

The point is that we all think we know best and the whole premis of the article is based on the assumption that all of the players named would be a success but as I have said there is no such thing as a sure thing.

But then again it's always easy to critisise with hind sight.

Guest said...

You have asked other people to be specific and not generalise. so who is the different player and can you guarentee that he would not turn out to be a waste of money. No, I didn't think so.

Brian said...

Rafa shouldn't have to look for anywhere to hide alex whatever your name is.
so he spent net 100 million in 5 and a half yrs.. thats nothing compared to chelsea, city or even harry redknapp. it's the going rate to maintain your teams position and is offset by lucrative tv deals and sponsorships.. had the americans given him any decent amount of cash we'd be fine..glen johnson and aquilani question marks will prove u wrong alex... and maybe, just maybe i'll wake up to read a positive article about liverpool on this site. but even if rafa wins the league, you guys will say he shouldve won it sooner or by more points or with better football bla bla bla.. try n get behind the club and stop being disruptive.. leave the reading of the riot act till May. otherwise u lot are no more than tabloid pond scum..
viva Rafa

Brian said...

and oh yeah, your fowler failure comment really show's a lack of football knowledge or understanding of why he was re-signed in the first place

Quasimodo_84 said...

It is quite clear judging by the comments there is too much negativity on this site. On one hand you have an almost ar$e kissing scribe like Paul Tomkns who tries to justify all of Rafa's shortcomings and on the other we have the epitome of Pessimism/ gloom and doom himself, JK.Can't we get a balanced view on things?
Please come back Tony Barrett[Liverpool Echo]!

Guest said...

Don't forget the eufa super cup and commmunity shield, as it's ok for the mancs to count them. When we win them they are worthless??????

Almino said...

Good post, agree with it all except for Kuyt not being creative...

Kuyt - 8 games, 3 goals, 3 assists mate and he puts in a shift! 

Alan from Ireland said...

Why should you agree with me?? You totally disregarded my point about the
squad Benitez has built over the 4 years to actually challenge for the title
last season and yet you claim critical realism more than anything you
sidetrack the points which you have no comeback on.
Your site is dengenirating itself with pointless articles like this one from
one of your writers, same old story unfortunately like it was on Sportingo.

lfc_nut said...

Run out of attention seeking headlines and resorted to old news already Jaimie? Says it all really. LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME.

Guest said...

Jamie you're Gillett loving scum.

Rossi said...

Excuses Jaimie or am i not just being realistic??

URL is optional said...

ARSENAL SPEND NOWHERE NEAR £20 MILLION A YEAR ON PLAYERS, YET LOOK AT THE FANTASTIC TALENT HE HAS GOT, WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH LUCAS, NGOG,BABEL ALL OF WHICH RAFA (EVERYONE THINKS HES GOD) BENITEZ PAID ALOT OF MONEY FOR, REGARDLESS OF MONEY WHICH IS BROUGHT IN HE STILL GETS MONEY TO SPEND, AND HE SPENDS IT WRONG. EVERY DOG HAS HIS DAY WHEN IT COMES TO SIGNINGS,

Guest said...

<span style="">

Maybe a better indicator of how much has been spent would be the sum of cost to the club. In other words, the net spend.
When taking into account spending, there should also be a caveat to evaluate how much of the money Rafa has been able to generate through sales of other players at profit, again boiling down to net spend. After all money recouped assists buying other players.
In addition, Rafa has been able to spend the amount he has due to sustained presence in the latter stages of the Champions League, where Liverpool hadn't resided previously.
However this clearly doesn't fit your agenda and you are unable to process this most basic of maths.
Epic fail.
</span>

Guest said...

Jamie...short-sighted and filled with subjective bile as always...bravo

Guest said...

RAFA IS THE MAN TO BRING BACK THE PREMIERSHIP.I ALWAYS SAYS THE EUROPEAN WIN IS A TRUE FLUKE.
EVERY TRUE LIVERPOLL FANS MUST PRAY NIGHT AND DAY FOR HIS DEPARTURE.
THE AMERICANS ARE TOTALLY RIGHT.THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE OF THE DISASTER START.
HE BOUGHT PLAYERS AND AFTERWARDS HE OUTPLAYED THEM FROM THEIR USUAL POSITION.EXAMPLE AS BABEL.

slim jimm said...

Its a simple point jaimie wen rafa had money to spend he spent it on good players who were successes. Keane was bought largely due to parry's insistence.. all ur replies ARE dodging delaneys point..Rafa can only buy one quality player a season and basically has to try his luck with a low money signing that he hopes will turn out better than the already existing player hes had to replace. Its a make or break situation!! tell me wat quality left back could be bought with the 8 mil used for dossena and the 2 m for degen. none!! if u wanna wanna look at success rates do it wiith the big money signings and ull see rafa has winning percentage..so per say if Rafa has citys or chelseas moneyy hes thus buy more good than bad..

And ALL companys work on net spend due to the inherent risk in ANY investment. its basic finance. i should know better than you since i work in ernst & young :)

Juan said...

Why have you removed my post?

Mr Realistic said...

Kanwank you really are a tool.

Juan said...

Joining the debate and clearly removing posts that question the articles credibility. My comments were made in a constructive non abusive manner yet you remove parts that obviuosly hit a raw nerve most.

Very democractic credible debate there Jamie! Sure why dont you go one step further and change what I write into what you would like to hear yourself.

Thats disappointing Jamie, Ive often read previous articles of your own and agreed with what you had to say, even reposting on other forums when others were warning me off the site.

Juan said...

I wonder how long my post above will last?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Juan - I haven't removed any of your posts.  Feel free to repost.

And to be honest, if you have such a problem with me/the site then you don't have to visit.  If your opinion is swayed by what others say about this site then that's you perogative.

The comment policy is quite clear - those who spend most of their time slagging off the site/moaning about authors will have their posts deleted.  Extraneous posts wil also be deleted, like the ones above from you, which I've removed.

Stick to ths issue and there is no problem.

Truth said...

Rafa has not been backed like other managers.
Remember that Rick Parry and the board blocked moves for better players for the last 10 years (and the board still does (Robbie Keane was forced on Rafa)).
When Rafa can't get his first choice he has to get the best of the rest which usually is the case.  Eventhough some of these you have classed as failures they have improved the team as seen by the progress made by the club under Rafa.
So looking at the wider picture Rafa is a genious considering the so called backing and money he has had.
Also 20m a season is pathetic.

Juan said...

I never said I had a problem with you or the site, my last post highlighted that I have agreed with some of your previous articles even though people on other forums warned me off the site.

I did stick to the issue and pointed out that the author left out critical information in terms of players sales under Benitez and also used incorrect information in relation to the amounts receievd for other players sold.

All i ask is if the author is going to question aspects of Bentiez's managerial career to date then at least he can pay Benitez the courtesy of getting the information he is to publish correct which he hasnt done here.

I have no problem if someone says Benitez is rubbish here are the facts. But when a fundamental part of someones arguement with Benitez is to do with the money he has spent against the money he has received on player sales the least I would expect is for the figures behind the arguement to be correct. And in this case they are not.

Thats not doing justice to LFC and not doing justice to Benitez. My posts are not meant to offend but maybe the author should have done more research on the topic before posting it on the net and presenting it as fact. That just leads to people like me, an avid supporter of LFC defending the interests of the club against misinformation.

Marsh said...

<span style="">Hi i agree with parts of your argument, and i feel that the NET Spent debate is a waste of time...But i do feel that you are not telling the full story....</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">First off our youth System was on the wrong path long before Rafa came in and lets remember that in his 1st few years he basically got rid of all the reserves because they were not good enough.</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">He went on to build a 2 time FA cup winning youth side + a league wining reserve team that right now has talent bursting out of it.</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">What I feel you have neglected is that PLAYERS that Rafa wanted that LFC, Parry and Moore’s were not willing to spend on.</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">The 1st blunder was not resigning OWEN, then replacing him with Cisse ....A player Rafa had no involvement in recruiting and Rafa's number one target @ the TIME was a DAVID VILLA, Parry did not feel he was worth the RISK...</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Since then we have lost out on ....Villa, Silva, Simao, Evra, Vidic, Ramsey, Dani Alves, Rafa wanted Aguero as a 17 yr old for 15mill and Parry turned it down.</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Tevez before he went to UTD ... Henry when he left for Barca ... Joe Cole before he went to Chelsea </span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">There is a long list of Players RAFA wanted that LFC said NO too and he had to settle for 2ND best.</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Can you really place all the blame on RAFA for that?</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Think of this side...</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Reina</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Alves</span>
<span style="">Vidic</span>
<span style="">Cara</span>
<span style="">Evra</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">SG</span>
<span style="">Masch</span>
<span style="">Silva</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">Aguero</span>
<span style="">Torres</span>
<span style="">Villa</span>
<span style=""> </span>
<span style="">That's the caliber of player Rafa wanted since he became LFC manager.</span>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style=" "> </span>

Rossi said...

Its not important when deeming someone a success or a failure but it is considered in the transfer budget each season, according to sources this year, part of the 20 mill we had as a transfer budget was used to improve current players contracts. Thus affecting the kitty to purchase new players - can you see where i am going with this.

Guest said...

By David Maddock
It is not for the want of trying. If you include the many youngsters he has brought in to bolster the youth structure, in his five and a half years at Anfield, Rafa Benitez has signed close on 100 players for Liverpool, at a net outlay (that is, money spent minus money raised) of figures quoted variously between £90m and £125m, with perhaps the most accurate assessment being offered in The Times recently, of £111.39million. 
You might have to rub your eyes at this point, but these figures really are correct. The Spanish coach has tried incredibly hard to wheel and deal to generate the funds to increase quality, and if you look at the team he inherited in 2005, there is no doubt he has done that. There is no comparison between the squad he took over and the one he has produced now. Just take a look at the pictures of the celebrations after the Champions' League final to confirm that. 
The money he has spent sounds a lot, but actually, it amounts to an outlay of less than £20million a season, which buys you one decent player a year...unless that player happens to be a Kaka or Cristiano Ronaldo, of course. 
When you consider there are just two players left at Anfield now from the day the manager walked in the door back in 2005, that isn't a great deal of money to bring in close on 30 players capable of hacking it at the top level. Especially when the squad he was left by Gerard Houllier generated very little in terms of revenue.
It has been a tricky situation, not made any easier by the debt problems at Anfield which required the manager to effectively sell before he could buy in the summer, destroying in the process the his hopes of again adding more depth to the squad he has so carefully been constructing over the past five years.
It is these circumstances which prompt Benitez, in more reflective moments, to quietly admit that he feels he still doesn't have the depth to his squad he would like, even if he's not exactly about to broadcast that fact on the nine o'clock news. 
Any sustained period of Injuries will devastate Liverpool's campaign this season, and that doesn't mean just to Gerrard and Torres, either. Both those players were on the pitch in Florence, when the absence of Mascherano meant Benitez was forced to give full back Fabio Aurelio only his second start of the season....in central midfield.
That sums up the headache Benitez has to face in juggling his resources to try and mount a convincing title campaign. When you consider, both United and Chelsea can comfortably field two teams that would challenge in the top four of the Premier League, then he's going to have to be pretty good at keeping the balls in the air.
But let's get this straight, it's not because Liverpool are a two-man team. That is just lazy, join the dots thinking. And it is annoying. Just like those bloody meerkats.

Guest said...

Net spend is the only way to judge spending. 220 mill figure is so misleading. Let me give you a hypothetical.

 Rafa buys a player, John Smith  for 10 mill . Smith  doesn't work out so Rafa sells him th next year for 10 mill and then buys Bob Jones for the same price of 10 mill.

Using the argument of the OP Rafa has now spent 20 mill , 10 on Smith + 10 on Jones. Its misleading because you are counting the same money twice and in reality Rafa has still only spent the original 10 which was recouped by selling John Smith.


Heres a much more sensible and even handed article.



http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-maddock/Liverpool-are-much-more-than-just-Gerrard-and-Torres-article187413.html

lfcvince said...

You are ALL missing the point which is if it aint broke dont fix it.

Garcia SOLD
Alonso SOLD
Crouch SOLD
Sissoko SOLD
Bellamy SOLD

I know you will say some wanted to leave but most didnt and Alonso was happy until Rafa wanted him gone for cash to spend.

I would take them on my bench or starting 11 any day and we would be stronger.

jack said...

I am so glad most LFC fans are too smart to fall for this drivel that is being written in this article. It must really irk Kanwar and Miller that their white lies are being discredited

Steven said...

"why is a comparison with Man/Chelsea relevant"

I cannot believe you just said that Jamie! How would you compare for example Gordon Brown? Would you not look at Tony Blair? How would you compare Stevie G? Frank Lampard? SETANTA v ESPN, McDonalds V Burger King!! The figures you trot out mean absolutely NOTHING if you don't compare Rafa's record to that of his peers. You must also take into account that since 2004 Rafa has had to rebuild an ENTIRE SQUAD.

You wanna see waste look at ManU - Nani 16m, Berbatov 30.75m, Hargreaves 17m, Anderson 18m, Kleberson 6.5m, Veron 28.1m, Forlan 6.9m, Djemba-Djemba 3.5m, Massimo Taibi 4.4m. THAT'S 131.06 MILLION POUNDS OF PURE EXCREMENT.

(Funny side note, quote from fergie on Veron: Questions over his performance led to an expletive laden tirade against the media by manager Alex Ferguson in support of Veron: "...On you go. I'm not fucking talking to you. He's a fucking great player. You are all fucking idiots."<sup></sup><span>[</span>

If "Sir" Alex is the benchmark - and he should be considering he is the most successful PL manager, then I would say Benitez has done a remarkable job.

Chelsea - Shevchenko 30.8m, Khalid Boulharouz 7m, Mutu 15.8m, Wright Phillips 21m. 74.6 million of crap!

So on what basis do you make your arguement? It doesn't make any sense? 220 million is absolutely nothing to rebuild an entire squad over a 5 year period and to have recoupped half that is incredible. He deserves a medal!

This Rafa bashing for the sake of it is boring and lame, this wasn't even your article Jamie and you couldn't wait to jump on the bandwagon! Pathetic!

SS said...

Sack Rafa

fedup said...

this site is an anti Rafa Site. Its full of shite

Alan from Ireland said...

Still no response hmmmmm....

Gord said...

I wouldn't say O'Neill is a rubbish manager but he is by no means great. Getting him would be a huge step backwards. There could well be a manager who could come in and do a better job than Rafa, but the fact is LFC can't afford to sack him, all the coaching staff he's appointed and still have money to get a better replacement and their entourage.

I remember we signed Pennant because Parry didn't wanna pay a million extra euros to get Simao, and £2 million or so extra for Alves. So he got a player for a position he needed who wasn't even his 2nd choice. That really brings into question how many of the players over the years he would have signed if Parry hadn't screwed it up (lets face it Parry was probably crap at negotiations cos look at the sponsorship deal we had compared to what we got now, in a worldwide recession). Fact is we'll never know for sure. Rafa is doing a good enough job where we can't justify sacking him, so really our job as supporters is to support; unless of course he really starts screwing up like the last year of Mr Houllier

Guest said...

What Jaimie was trying to say was if Rafa had spent the GBP 28 mio on Daivd Villa instead. He would have a asset of GBP 40 Mio now instead of trying to rectify error by continuing selling and buying.

icony said...

Jammie, i ain't on your side with this. a car initially bought at 20k and sold at 10k. combine what that car has done for you in that specified time before depreciation. for a player, consider the sale of jerseys,commercials and the image on the pitch. these seem minor but imagine all those without such a player. did you know about the fan base in Italy due to the acquisition of Aquilani and Dosena?
clubs earn somewhere somehow from a player be it short termed or long termed. 

Jevon Johnson said...

Read this: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG166069091014-0752.htm
Tomkins is one of the most level headed writers.

Jevon Johnson said...

David Villa would never have come anyway and not for that money.

Jevon Johnson said...

Hey what about Anelka...lol
Imagine hgaving him now.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I've always been completely civil with Tomkins...never had a problem with him.  Then,  a few months ago, I posted a comment on his site, addressing an issue in one of his articles.  He deleted the comment (which was perfectly civil) he slagged off this site in a really nasty way without any provocation at all.  When someone has an attitude like that, I'm not interested in anything they have to say.

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