It's three years to the day since Kenny Dalglish inexplicably splashed out £35m on Andy Carroll, a panic buy that will surely be remembered as the worst transfer in LFC's illustrious history. The Reds still haven't learned from that mistake. Last night, the club was in full panic-buy mode right up until the transfer deadline, only this time, the deal failed, so this time, LFC didn't get the chance to overpay. In light of last night's transfer farce, Dalglish has revealed some more details about the Carroll travesty, and in my view, what transpired in 2010 is probably very similar to what happened with Yehven Konoplayanka.
In his column for The Mirror today, Dalglish seized the opportunity to indirectly link the Konoplayanka fail to his purchase of Andy Carroll, arguing that last-minute transfers 'can often be out of your control'. He mused:
"If someone comes in late for one of your players, you have to respond. It can be a domino effect.
"It was like when Fernando Torres told us at Liverpool that he wanted to leave in January 2011. That certainly set alarm bells ringing and we moved quickly for Andy Carroll on the final day of the window.
"Andy arrived earlier in the day and I spoke to him then to welcome him to the club. Then he went off to do his medical and discuss the financial arrangements with other people. I never got involved in that"
In my view, this is what happened with Konoplayanka. After the Salah deal failed, 'alarm bells' started ringing at Anfield, and the club 'moved quickly' for the Ukrainian, which led to the mad dash to try and sign him on transfer deadline day.
Dalglish's comments are clearly an indirect attempt to relinquish responsibility for the Carroll deal. By saying he 'never got involved' with the 'financial arrangement', he is basically laying the blame on the shoulders of FSG/Damien Comolli.
Perhaps that's fair, though. Brendan Rodgers often hints that he has no input into the transfer valuation/financial process, so perhaps it's the same with Dalglish? Perhaps LFC's managers simply select the players, and then leave transfer fee/wages etc to Ian Ayre, and the senior LFC hierarchy?
Even if Dalglish and Rodgers have minimal say on valuations, they are still intricately involved in the process, and will be kept informed at every step. That's only logical. Dalglish will have known that LFC were going to pay £35m for Carroll, and he could've nixed the deal, and explained that £35m was just too much to pay.
Having said that, I personally don't blame Dalglish that much for the Carroll fee; I blame FSG for signing-off on such a ridiculously inflated price. The group may not know that much about football, but you don't need to have 20-years experience of the Premier League to know that it's ridiculous to pay £35m for a player with only six months experience at the top level of English football (!)
Dalglish must, however, take responsibility for identifying Carroll in the first place. I still can't understand how he could've legitimately believed that Carroll - a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player - could take Liverpool forward.
The days of Liverpool buying big target men should've died out with the departures of Erik Meijer and Emile Heskey, but Dalglish took the club back to the dark ages with the ill-fated Carroll transfer.
Luckily, Brendan Rodgers has the right idea, and under his management, there's no way a player like Carroll will ever turn out for Liverpool.
Well, not in attack, anyway. Defensively, Liverpool have two Andy Carrolls right now: Aly Cissokho, and (arguably) Mamadou Sakho...
Author: Jaimie K
In his column for The Mirror today, Dalglish seized the opportunity to indirectly link the Konoplayanka fail to his purchase of Andy Carroll, arguing that last-minute transfers 'can often be out of your control'. He mused:
"If someone comes in late for one of your players, you have to respond. It can be a domino effect.
"It was like when Fernando Torres told us at Liverpool that he wanted to leave in January 2011. That certainly set alarm bells ringing and we moved quickly for Andy Carroll on the final day of the window.
"Andy arrived earlier in the day and I spoke to him then to welcome him to the club. Then he went off to do his medical and discuss the financial arrangements with other people. I never got involved in that"
In my view, this is what happened with Konoplayanka. After the Salah deal failed, 'alarm bells' started ringing at Anfield, and the club 'moved quickly' for the Ukrainian, which led to the mad dash to try and sign him on transfer deadline day.
Dalglish's comments are clearly an indirect attempt to relinquish responsibility for the Carroll deal. By saying he 'never got involved' with the 'financial arrangement', he is basically laying the blame on the shoulders of FSG/Damien Comolli.
Perhaps that's fair, though. Brendan Rodgers often hints that he has no input into the transfer valuation/financial process, so perhaps it's the same with Dalglish? Perhaps LFC's managers simply select the players, and then leave transfer fee/wages etc to Ian Ayre, and the senior LFC hierarchy?
Even if Dalglish and Rodgers have minimal say on valuations, they are still intricately involved in the process, and will be kept informed at every step. That's only logical. Dalglish will have known that LFC were going to pay £35m for Carroll, and he could've nixed the deal, and explained that £35m was just too much to pay.
Having said that, I personally don't blame Dalglish that much for the Carroll fee; I blame FSG for signing-off on such a ridiculously inflated price. The group may not know that much about football, but you don't need to have 20-years experience of the Premier League to know that it's ridiculous to pay £35m for a player with only six months experience at the top level of English football (!)
Dalglish must, however, take responsibility for identifying Carroll in the first place. I still can't understand how he could've legitimately believed that Carroll - a lolloping, technically bereft lummox of a player - could take Liverpool forward.
The days of Liverpool buying big target men should've died out with the departures of Erik Meijer and Emile Heskey, but Dalglish took the club back to the dark ages with the ill-fated Carroll transfer.
Luckily, Brendan Rodgers has the right idea, and under his management, there's no way a player like Carroll will ever turn out for Liverpool.
Well, not in attack, anyway. Defensively, Liverpool have two Andy Carrolls right now: Aly Cissokho, and (arguably) Mamadou Sakho...
Author: Jaimie K
mamadou sakho i'm afraid i have to disagree there sakho has been immense imo
ReplyDeleteI agree that cissokho is out of his depth in the prem, but sakho has hardly had a clear run of games yet and you don`t play at the level he has since he was 17 if your crap.
ReplyDeleteSeriously I still don't understand how people slag Carroll off all the time. Fair enough he doesn't fit brendans style but he's an incredibly useful player who absolutely dominates defences and causes panic. He is not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. Ok he's maybe not 35 mil but that was more for the fact we were planning on having him for 10 years and at the time everyone was panicking about having no Englishmen. Worst transfer ever? No chance. Watch him smash everyone to pieces at wh.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Sakho is crap by any means. I was in favour of his signing. With the Carroll comparison, I just mean that he's (arguably) overpriced, and technically suspect at times.
ReplyDeletePound-for-pound I'd argue it's the worst ever, but Sean Dundee still takes the overall title :-)
ReplyDeleteYou're description of Andy Carroll is very harsh. He wasn't the player to take us forward, but he is a good footballer and was impressive again today for west ham before getting sent off harshly. On that note well done to laudrup for saying it shouldn't have been a sending off - he's always been a class act, Wenger take note!
ReplyDeleteHave to agree with this Caroll was a complete flop. With many players available to LFC at the time Kenny identified Caroll. Jaimies description of him is a classic by the way. I remember a lot of fans were very upset at the prospect of losing Caroll but if he did not leave it would not of opened the door for Strurridge.
ReplyDeleteIt seems JK has something against Sakho, but IMHO he should be in the first team when fit over any of the other CBs.
ReplyDeleteSakho looks uncomfortable on the ball, but I think his passing stats are really good and I'm a fan. Having said that, paying 19m for a 4th choice centre back with less than a year on his contract though is another incitement on Ian ayre being a bit rubbish at this part of his job.
ReplyDeleteAlso, with sakho, he's a quality player one if the few defenders that dominates attackers and gets in their faces....he's an aggressive defender if U get what I mean not angry but he attacks the ball quickly and steps in to tackle or intercept rather than hold off like Italian defenders and constrict the space. That means he's perfect for a counter attacking team as he wins the ball back and is then behind their attackers...problem is he's not quite used to the pace of the prem yet which is understandable if uv come from Ligue 1. But he's been pretty good and once he's settled I'm sure he'll b amazing, one of our best players. Nice blog dude by the way not criticising just disagreeing slightly....
ReplyDeleteI agree, he will IMO replace agger in a year or two
ReplyDeleteI think he already has
ReplyDeleteCarrol/ Konoplyanka? Just don't see how you make those transfers "probably very similar" ....The circumstances are very, very different....for instance this time no-one came in on the last day taking one of our leading players...Kono was a proposed addition not a direct replacement for a departing player. He was someone we'd previously scouted and had already pencilled in as a summer signing. We didn't pay £35million for him...in fact in the end we didn't pay anything for him. The only real similarity is that neither transfer went to plan.
ReplyDeletehonestly people where banging on about cissoko and how much better he is than jose...i stated from the git go that jose is twice the player
ReplyDeletei like carroll but he doesn't suit our style.but we have been buying players we either dont need or dont suit our style for as long as i can remember well at least back to the the barnes aldo era...we are loaning wingers out and buying them in just as quick ,and yet our CM IN PAPER THIN
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with you - I thought Ian ayre should have been concentrating on getting a midfielder instead. I can only imagine Rodgers didn't want a defensive midfielder because he wants Gerrard to play there.
ReplyDeleteIt might have been an overpayment for Konoplayanka, & I'd have been more gutted about the deal not going through had he been the defensive mid we surely need, but the inability to sign him raises another issue: LFC's poor showing in achieving transfer targets. This seems to stem fron post Andy Carroll caution & sheer ineptitude. Players are dithered over & come late (Sturridge) passed over as too expensive, cheap inferior alternatives brought in (Aspas) & identified but not bought (numerous). FSG need to review what's going wrong here & change because something's not right.
ReplyDeleteI'd criticize that, I think: I don't see any evidence of Sakho having poor technique on the ball. He looks a bit awkward like most tall men do with the ball at their feet but if you actually watch his feet he's much better than average. I'd call him a ball-playing centre-back in fact. He has some excellent passes in his locker. I'd criticise him for losing concentration, linked to aerobic fitness, not for his skills.
ReplyDeleteThe ridiculous fee for Carroll was clearly directly influenced by the ridiculous fee we received for Torres. We suddenly had a bucket load of cash and needed another striker with hardly any time left and thus hastily over-payed to get the deal done. But it's easy to forget that back then Carroll had shown quite a lot of promise that he has since of course totally failed to live up to. Had we not been so 'flush', there's no way we would have forked out that kind of money. It's made LFC the butt of no end of jokes, one of the worst buys of any team in living memory. Clearly Dalglish/Rodgers have a big hand in identifying targets and therefore must shoulder some blame when they don't work out.
ReplyDeleteThe £17 million for Sakho does seem too much also, but with him the signs are positive, and I believe he will be one of our better signings once he gets use to the pace of the Premier League and manages a consistent run in the team, injury free.
Yip, still believe we have finally found our answer to Hyypia. Worth every penny we paid for him.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but with Konoplyanka I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. We met the buy-out clause and it seems like they had done everything they could to get the deal done, but the Dnipro president decided he didn't want to sanction it and blocked the move. Doesn't seem like there's much you can do when that happens.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he's as commanding in the air as Hyppia but he does look like he's going to be a big player for us for many years.
ReplyDeleteBut shouldn't Ayre have been aware that the club president wasn't going to sell before investing all that time & money in pursuing it?
ReplyDeleteI think that's a bit of a red herring....if they have entered negotiations and are trying to drive up the price, as they did, then it clearly suggests he was going to....if he changes his mind once a deal is done then you really can't legislate against that.
ReplyDeleteGood question. I wondered if that's why spurs pulled out? Even if we give ayre the benefit of the doubt on this one, there have been far too many where the blame does lie at his feet. He's just not good at this part of his job, so we need to get someone who is
ReplyDeleteI think it was more a total U-turn. Maybe he wanted a fee much greater than the buy-out clause. But it seems like negotiations had been made in good faith, the indication being that they were originially prepared to sell.
ReplyDeleteI agree, too many failures on his watch.
ReplyDeleteI'm not defending the guy, he's made plenty of balls-ups, just don't think this is one of them. He's a business man, and while he's obviously good at the commercial side of things, he shouldn't be leading transfer negotiations.
ReplyDeleteTalking of dalglish signings, Charlie adam is doing us a big favour!
ReplyDeleteHe's a decent footballer, and could be so much better with the right attitude. But he never will be unless he lays off the booze and kebabs.
ReplyDeleteWhat I can't understand about signing him (apart from the fee) was the fact that he had a pretty serious thigh injury and wasn't fit to okay for a couple of months
ReplyDeleteEveryone is upset here. Looks like world is in upset mode. Newcastle and Swansea lost against lesser opponents. Spurs, Utd, Everton and Barca trailing.
ReplyDeleteReasons to be cheerful
ReplyDeleteI thought I was awesome, when at Liverpool
ReplyDeleteUnless it continues till tomorrow. haha
ReplyDeleteIt shouldn't. We have the guys who can press the ball as we showed this week. If we can play that aggressively vs Everton, we can play that aggressively vs WBA and they won't be able to withstand the onslaught.
ReplyDeleteTrue. He's struggled with injuries and struggled for fitness ever since. Whether that has anything to do with the aforementioned takeaways and the consumption of Stella, who can say?
ReplyDeleteYes, only if it was that simple. Lets hope for the best.
ReplyDeleteAssaidi looking good. Adam, Borini and Carroll (except sent off) played well today. Its raining Liverpool everywhere.
ReplyDeleteA brace for Adam against Man U. Good lad.
ReplyDeleteLooks like Everton and Tottenham are level now, but if they both drop points and Man U aswell tomorrow is a great opportunity to consolidate our position in that top four,
ReplyDeleteCharlie Adam finally comes good for us!
ReplyDeleteThe guy is a footballing God
ReplyDeleteWell kinda of a minor deity really...more like a wood nymph or something. But WHEN we win tomorrow, we'll be 9 clear of ManU and 5 clear of Spurs since they were held today. C'mon Reds!!!
ReplyDelete...maybe more like anti-Mata?
ReplyDeleteHa...good one. Manu had plenty of chances late...the ManU magic just wasn't there.
ReplyDeleteI see what you've done there ;)
ReplyDeleteI'd say they're about 8 players short of winning the title.
ReplyDeleteWe should buy Begovic a pint too...great save from Rooney's free kick.
ReplyDeletethis is our season m8 ;D
ReplyDeleteCan't understand why nobody made a move for him last summer. Is there a better keeper in the league? I don't think so.
ReplyDeletefergietime was there though. they played over 7 minutes of extra time!?!?!?
ReplyDeleteCertainly not today! ;-)
ReplyDeleteThis article would be better described as speculation than opinion. You have no idea what the transfer plan was. Perhaps they went for Salah first because they knew Konoplyanka's move had complications. There is an inherent and unavoidable contradiction in your entire argument over this transfer window. You claim LFC are in panic mode yet they didn't buy anyone. That suggests someone at the top is thinking clearly and sticking to a plan. If they had spent 25m to get Konoplyanka then they would have panicked. They didn't buy anyone, they realised the terms were not right therefore they didn't panic. Criticise them for not taking a gamble perhaps but it makes zero sense to accuse them of panicking. You were wrong on this one.
ReplyDeleteJust listened to the Anfield wrap and their take on the situation was quite balanced and thoughtful. John Gibbo seemed to think that the Konoplyanka deal was not a panic buy but a signing that they planned for the summer but brought forward due to the Salah fail. So a non panic panuc buy you could say. He didn't say why he thought that but as the Anfield wrap are known for having actual football journos on the show it may be they do have some info we don't.
ReplyDeleteAnyway Euopa league hopefuls Manchester United just lost to Stoke. It appears Mata can't solve all their problems in no time. May their struggles continue.
Agree. Don't think catching City is an option unless their entire front 5-6 get hurt. We're better off rooting for them to clobber everybody...except us. We should have won at the Etihad really. But if they can beat Arsenal and Chelski, that keeps us closer to the two of them. Then we can be motivated to play for 2nd or 3rd.
ReplyDeleteYes, 13 minutes total injury time in the game. Didn't see, did Van Persie leave due to injury?
ReplyDeletei think their aging and shaky defence got even more shaky. Jones got injured
ReplyDeleteNo, it makes zero sense to you because you disagree. I have my view, you have yours.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I know our transfer window wasn't exactly brilliant, but if I was a United fan I'd be seriously worried. The Mata signing (brilliant though he is) really doesn't solve their problems. Eight games they've lost now, but what they've really lost is that aura of invincibility, and the other teams are queuing up to give them a kicking.
ReplyDeleteYes I think both Assaidi and Borini are growing in confidence every match. Good for us if we can get to top 4.
ReplyDeletewhat i fail to understand is how a team that won the league last year? and with close to 100million investment? ( arent fellaini and mata alone about 70m?). will fight tooth and nail for europa league, come end of season. the fall has been so rapid its allmost comical.
ReplyDeletenow lets just hope that this will continue
I still muse about an alternate universe where we signed Sturridge as part of the Torres deal and got something like £35m. Suarez and Sturridge in the same window with a good sum to still spend. Who knows what could have been.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think it's all about the mentality. As you say, it's the same bunch of players. I hate to say it but old red-noses influence was immense. Problem for United is, once you start down that slippery slope, it's a hell of a long way back, as we well know.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on that one what could of been...
ReplyDeleteHa Ha! . Wonder what Fergie's saying now? :-)
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely but you need to acknowledge that it is pure speculation, often with more than a healthy dose of scepticism. None of us know what went on behind the scenes. You have a distinctive view of Liverpool football club which makes this site interesting but you are selective and form the facts around your opinion rather than vice versa. They did not buy this guy and they did not try to compete with Chelsea for Salah. Therefore they did not panic. Carrol was a panic clearly but they have learnt from that.
ReplyDeleteAs much as i admire & respect Kenny i feel he has to take some of the flak for the AC signing, like you say, he could have identified a better prospect or made it clear he was never worth 35mil. As for the rest of this season my biggest concern is injuries, if we can avoid too many i think we will make top 4 , another pretty good day with Spurs drawing & the mancs getting stoked :)
ReplyDeleteYes, and his view is that your argument has zero sense.
ReplyDeleteSaying something is 'pure speculation' is just a copout. This is what fans do: we speculate based on the available info. Every fan does this, including you, so going around telling people they should've speculate and or their view is wrong because it's 'based on speculation' is futile.
ReplyDeleteI make inferences based on a variety of empirical factors, and considering the Konoplyanka fail in light of LFC's transfer history over the last 5 years, it is perfectly fair to suggest that it could've been a panic buy. In fact, there is arguably more evidence to suggest it's a panic buy than not.
Ha,ha :) who,s knocked Man U off their perch? Everyone! :)
ReplyDeleteTo be fair quite a few have been saying that on here as well for the last few days...but not JK, he no "likey" the likely.
ReplyDeleteMy wish is to see Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool to fight for top 4 year in and year out. City and Chelsea are not the football clubs I respect, they are oligarchy's play toys.
ReplyDeleteWhat is most in debate is your rather tenous linking of the two events, and the validity of your conclusions. Nobody is questioning (I hope) your right to believe what you do or put forward your arguments.
ReplyDeleteBut do your arguments support the description of Liverpool as having attempted a 'panic buy?' Personally, I think they fall well short.
Moyesy, a covert operative on a secret mission to bring down the club from within. He's doing a fine job.
ReplyDeleteDo you still get a Europa place for the best fair play? Maybe that's Man U,s best bet now, keep Fellaini, Rooney & VP out the team & be nice :)
ReplyDeleteAll of the reliable journalists said that Konoplyanka was planned for the summer.
ReplyDelete£37m for Mata? Now that has panic buy written all over it. Clearly Mata is not going to solve their problems :-)
jonny english on telly now, Is that really Mr bean or jose mourinho!! Must be a song somewhere there boys
ReplyDeleteYou don't half undermine your position sometimes fella...I refer to the "more evidence" line...it's not even arguable because there's NO evidence, just conjecture. The only actual "evidence" would be if someone directly involved in the process came out and revealed that was the case...and as far as I'm aware that hasn't happened... and isn't very likely to occur I'd suggest. Opinion is one thing but don't try and embellish it.
ReplyDeleteWhether the linking is 'tenuous' is irrelevant. It's my opinion, and I've provided copious reasoning for it across 4-5 different articles.
ReplyDeleteIn my view, the circumstances absolutely support the description of a panic buy; you and others just refuse to see it, but that's fine:
* LFC spend 2.5 months trying to sign Salah.
* 3 days before the transfer deadline, that deal fails, and LFC switch their focus to Konplyanka.
* Rodgers admits in his friday press conference that everything 'happened very quickly', which suggests a last minute move.
* If Konoplyanka was - as some suggest - always the number 2 option, then LFC would've been ready to seamlessly move onto him, and would've done so a long time ago when the futility of the Salah pursuit became obvious.
* When you have a *planned* second option, you don't wait until 3 days before the window shuts to pursue it. Any prudent business would approach the player/his club weeks before that as a fail-safe, just in case the number 1 target collapsed.
* Why, after almost 2.5 months, did LFC not think 'hang on - it's been 2.5 months! Perhaps we should look at someone else'?
* Konoplyanka may have been a target last summer, but that doesn't mean he was on the club's list for this transfer window.
* LFC have a recent history of making poor last-minute panic buys: Carroll, Sakho (both overpriced); Ilori, and (arguably) Victor Moses.
There is plenty of 'read between the lines' evidence to support the contention that Konoplyanka was a panic buy, and I could list more, and I will do so in a specific article on the issue next week.
I don't dislike City...hate Chelski tho. And Mourinho intensifies the hate to the heat of a thousand suns. Liverpool wins are the only PL event that give me more pleasure than seeing that smug little ba$tahd with a losing frown on his face as he attempts to justify a Chelski misfortune by blaming everything other than his team's performance.
ReplyDeleteWell said, after Man U there,s no other club i disdain more than the rent boys
ReplyDeleteYour pedantry seemingly knows no bounds. When I say 'evidence', I clearly mean available evidence, whatever that may be. Evidence doesn't have to be absolute/factual. Circumstantial evidence is still a form of evidence, whether you like it or not.
ReplyDeleteThe problem here is, when people disagree with something, suddenly evidence provided to uphold the opposite POV must be absolute, and directly from the horse's mouth. However, you and others are more than willing to accept the circumstantial evidence that supports your view of the issue (i.e. unconfirmed reports from journos about Dnipro's owner derailing the deal etc)
Totally agree, the guy is becoming a caricature, a comedy character. I used to find him amusing, now I find him hypocritical and derisory. But City I grudgingly admire; their adherence to attacking football is something to behold, much like our own I might add :)
ReplyDeleteIf I had my choice between AC and somebody like Jay Rodriguez today...I'd take Rodriguez every time...AC is a one trick workhorse. I'd rather have someone who can be multi-dimensional. AC was a poor signing...no two ways about it.
ReplyDeleteAll the 'reliable' journalists. I'm frequently amused by the utter one-eyed hypocrisy of football fans. When the disagree with something, all the journos are full of sh*t and make everything up; when they agree with something, suddenly, the journos are all bastions of truth and honour. It really is quite hilarious.
ReplyDeleteEvery reliable journalist has said that Konoplyanka was planned for the summer so nothing is cast in stone that Salah was first choice.
ReplyDeleteI haven't see many CBs that look 'comfortable' on the ball tbh. Some may be a bit more fluid than others, but all of them look to get rid of it as soon as they beat one guy or get near traffic. If they were comfortable on the ball, they'd be midfielders or fullbacks.
ReplyDeleteYou actually do get good journalists but obviously you will disagree. No need to reply then...
ReplyDeleteYes, you do get good journos, but that's very obviously not my point.
ReplyDeleteDisagree with that because he would have been on Rodgers list seen we had been linked previously with him, not like trying to decide who u want after ur main player leaves
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDL7VQ30Z8
ReplyDeleteBut it is a very important point is it not? He said reliable Journos, journos who write for papers who actually try to tell the truth about stuff. Independent, Guradian etc Even the Echo has some reliable Journos as they have more contact with the club than some. Even the redtop rags might have one or two who are not perennial lyers.
ReplyDeleteI know your argument will be that we see people we agree with as reliable and those we don't as not. But that is a massive cop pout. Some of us judge people on their merits and make opinions based on that information.
Conidering the discussion we had about papers and how much they get wrong/right I am surprised you have not changed your own opinion based on the reports from the journos Logan discussed. You seemed to be of the belief they (papers) largely get it right were you not? So is ignoring this the same kind of hypocrisy you are accusing?
Wht Ever Might be the Reason regarding our transfer crisis..past is past lets be positive about future...the biggest concern for our team now will be not to get any more injuries until the end of the season...Hoping for the Best...still my gut feeling is we will reach TOP 4 this time for sure....YNWA
ReplyDeleteNice idea but I reckon JK will be poking this one for a while yet.... I often don't agree with him but can't deny the lad's work ethic!
ReplyDelete"I don't know what we have to do to win. We played well today," Moyes said.
ReplyDeleteHa ha, welcome to mediocrity!
And over at United the records just keep on falling - a Stoke win for the first time since 1984.
ReplyDeleteJaimie, I've seen you quote dictionary definitions on several occasions when arguing against people. Panic "Sudden or uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wild or unthinking behaviour". Clearly Liverpool decision to do nothing yesterday shows they were not panicking. I actually wish they had gambled a bit and seen if 18m to 20m would have bought Konoplyanka because he has promise. You are over egging this Panic buy situation as you have an established agenda of criticising Rogers transfer record despite his acquisition of Sturridge and Coutinho, who are two of the best transfers in the last 5 years in the Premiership. And not everyone thinks Sahko was a waste of money. He is raw but he is very young and we could get 10 to 12 years out of him. He clearly has potential and needs time before his purchase can be evaluated fairly.
ReplyDeleteadmire them for what they are, passionate fans that have been through the ringer more than we will ever know. hate a plastic manc's as much as you like but citeh fans know what it is to properly support a team, much like ourselves, and for that I cant hate them buying success.
ReplyDeleteI try but it doesn't feel right !
Everyone has the right to an opinion? I prefer "everyone has the right to an educated opinion". I am not refusing to see your point, it is just very far away from what I see when looking at the facts. That seems to be a view shared by the majority of others. I half suspect that come the next window, whatever transfer attempts are made, you will take an antagonistic position again, regardless of the circumstances. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong. Whilst covering this transfer window, and when dealing with BR's transfer record, I think you have crossed the line from critical realism into negative bias. That said I really enjoy the site.
ReplyDeleteJust because the 'majority' has a different opinion doesn't make it more valid. Whether you see my point or not is not really the issue; I'm not trying to change peoples' opinions. I just give my own personal interpretation of events; it's everyone else who constantly tries to get me to change my view.
ReplyDeleteRodgers has brought in 15 players since he arrived at the club:
ReplyDelete* Sturridge and Coutinho are the only two outright successes.
* Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Allen, Yesil, Assaidi, Sahin, Cissokho, Moses = £46m (approx) on players who've made zero impact on the team/don't play/are on loan due to limited impact.
* Mignolet and Toure are decent signings.
* Sakho is overpriced (€19m), and the jury is still out on whether he'll be a success or not. He can't even command a regular place in the team despite his price tag.
If you choose to ignore the reality of Rodgers' transfer business, that's up to you.
If Kroos is indeed available in the summer and Liverpool qualify for the CL he would be perfect signing for LFC.
ReplyDeleteUsing the variable unreliable stats again, how many of Sturridges goals were assisted by Suarez, and Vise Versa, then stat me.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk about 'reality' then. Football is a matter of opinions but by looking at transfer fees we can take an objective view of his transfer policy. If LFC sold the players you have listed at market value they would make a profit. Rogers signings as a group have gained value. Is this not the only really fair way to judge transfer success?
ReplyDeleteI'll be conservative in my valuations to give you the benefit of the doubt. You will see that I have been more than fair to your view point when valuing the names you mentioned. I feel I have been overly negative in fact.
Sturridge is a massive success worth celebrating. I suggest he would be valued at £30m. I think that is a reasonable figure for a young striker with his goal scoring record. This would deliver a profit of £18m. BR should receive huge plaudits for seeing his potential when no one else did.
Coutinho looks very good so far, surely worth £18-£20m. £10m profit.
It is too soon to judge Alberto, any reasonable commentator can see that. He has shown glimpses of class for the £7m spent, so money back or a small €2m loss.
Allen looks well overpriced and we would get only about £8m for him now, £7m loss.
Borini is showing his potential at Sunderland and is probably a £10m player, £2m loss.
Aspas looks like a waste of £7m but should get £4m back due to his reputation in Spain, let's say a £3m loss.
Sahko was £15m. I think he looks a £15m player but I'll give you a generous £5m loss and value him at only £10m.
Assaidi and Yesil were such small transfer fees that selling them now would make a profit of £2m due to Assaidi's performances for Stoke.
Mignolet is surely a break even at least and Toure was a free.
As for the loan signings, Sahin was a very highly rated & justifiable loan deal that just didn't work out. Cissokho and Moses had decent reputations so I would think only moderate criticism is deserved for these deals.
You regularly state that Rogers is a transfer failure. Analysing the players as assets, Sturridge and Coutinho have gained around £30m in value. The others have by my negative calculations have lost £17m in value. He's in the black!
You might argue there is a lost opportunity cost on the money spent on Aspas and Allen but the overall impact of his signing is positive. We are fourth in the league above Spurs and UTD and no one would have predicted that with confidence at the start of the season. Rogers is improving Liverpool.
So Jaimie, if we were to sell all the players you listed, a profit would be made for the club. How is this a transfer failure?
So, does the author actually believe that this situation is like Torres / Carroll like title suggests? Vague
ReplyDeleteTorres and Chelsea forced a move by offering an obscene amount of money for a fading star, we then somehow ended up paying an even more obscene amount of money for a player we didn't even need. We had Suarez as the replacement.
This time we DIDNT sell a player, and didn't get held to ransom for a player.
Yes Carroll was a mistake, at anything over £10 million
I can't see what this article is alluding to
So agree. Chelsea the new Man U. Mourinho the new Fergy. Notice how the press are playing his mind games for him, just as they did with Fergy.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I have *not* stated that Rodgers is a 'transfer failure', so please don't twist my words. I've stated that he has performed ineffectively in the transfer market, and in saying that, I've also regularly acknowledged his successes.
ReplyDeleteSecond, Sturridge and Coutinho should not be included in the equation when assessing overall group value. You're doing that because you know it will provide you with the result you want, which is to argue that Rodgers' transfers are profitable.
Besides, you're arguing a point that's not in dispute: I agree that Sturridge/Coutinho are successes.
Your valuations may be fair, but you - like so many others - miss the point. It's not about money that may speculatively be recouped at some point in the future; it's the loss of utility that LFC suffers in the intervening time.
Who cares if LFC are in the black if the club fails to qualify for the CL again this season? Liverpool are currently losing out on the benefit that would've been gained if Rodgers had spent that £46 effectively.
For example: Borini, Assaidi and Ilori out on loan. Combined cost = £21m. Right now, those three are doing nothing to move the club forward *right *now*. If Rodgers had bought the right players, they wouldb be at the club now, and would be contributing to the goal of CL football.
£21m! That could've gone on one excellent player; someone who could be making a serious impact. Instead, LFC are getting absolutely zero benefit for that outlay, and with the squad decimated by injury, that may well prove costly later in the season.
Ditto Alberto and Aspas: £15m spent on two players who barely feature, and make zero contribution to the club's immediate goal.
And again: if Rodgers had spent that money wisely, the club could have another 1-2 players in the squad right now making an impact.
If this happens once or twice, then it's just part and parcel of the transfer process. When a manager brings in TEN players who make zero impact on the team, it's a major problem.
Sorry Jamie, sometimes your view is so skewed you can't see the story for what it is.
ReplyDeleteThe facts are the Ukrainian was in our sights for a while and the medical was planned in good time. The fee was agreed and the green lights were all on. Only for the selling club to change the rules of the game.
The best deal for Liverpool was no deal.
No, you seem incapable of reading my posts correctly. In my comment above, I made specific reference to 'empirical factors', and when I use the word 'evidence' it's clear I refer to that.
ReplyDeleteIn the absence of absolute evidence, interpretation of what's available is the next best thing, and that is standard practice in every sphere of life, including the law. If X kills Y, and X doesn't provide a confession, then the available evidence needs to be interpreted to build a case, and oftentimes, it is circumstantial. That doesn't make it invalid though, which is what you seem to be arguing.
Plus, you demand a level of proof that is never actually available. Owners etc don't come out and make statements about why transfers fell through, and you know that. Yet you persist in demanding unobtainable evidence. it's typical ploy use to erroneously discredit someone's argument.
I'm not really interested whether people think my argument 'holds water' - to me, it is a solid argument backed by credible points, and I stand by it. If people want to dismiss it, then so be it! I'm not here to change peoples' views - I'm just a fan with an opinion. Simple as that.
Sorry, Franco - I prefer to formulate my own view rather than simply regurgitate the prevailing view of the tabloid press.
ReplyDeleteAgain - I struggle not to agree with you JK :-)
ReplyDeleteIf you win more than you lose on the transfer market you improve the squad, which is what Rogers is doing. I see where you are coming from with the loss of utility but my point is you are over critical. No manager gets it right every time.
ReplyDeleteA critical point you miss that negates you loss of utility argument is that Rogers is seriously disadvantaged compared to the established top four because he hasn't been able to offer CL football. This undoubtedly discourages proven elite players from joining us, even if we could afford them. If we bid for Costa for example, Chelsea will bid for him and he will go to Chelsea. Easy decision. Rogers therefore has to shop around for unproven players and in the circumstances he is doing well. You on the other hand say he is doing poorly in term of transfers. This just isn't a credible position.
I believe the press get it right with transfer rumours sometimes, but I don't see what that has to do with my argument about Konoplayanka. I believe he was an (almost) panic-buy, and I'm not going to change my view just because a few journos with an LFC bias (i.e. Maddock at the Mirror; the LFC Echo guys) try and put a positive spin on yet another failed transfer.
ReplyDeleteMy argument makes plenty of sense, whether you choose to accept it or not.
ReplyDeleteYes like I said you believe what suits you. Ignore what doesn't like you were accusing Logan of.
ReplyDeleteI see your points, but yet again, I have to disagree:
ReplyDelete* In what Universe has Rodgers had more successes than failures in the transfer market? 10 of his 15 acquisitions have had no impact on the squad, or LFC's goals. Only Sturridge and Coutinho are outright successes; and even if we charitably include Mignolet and Toure in the 'success' column, that's still only 4 out of 15 transfers. Rodgers is clearly getting it wrong more often than not.
* The CL football argument is not really valid. Suarez joined LFC without CL football, as did Sturridge and Coutinho. And even without CL football, there are players out there who could've come in and made an impact. Rodgers just chose the wrong players. For example: LFC were heavily linked with Wanyama and Lovren, both of whom are doing great for Southampton. Why not buy them for the money spent on Alberto and Aspas? Why not pull out all the stops and sign Eriksen for the whopping price of £11m? All three players of the aforementioned players joined clubs not in the CL, and all three would've done a hell of a lot better (IMO) than Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Assaidi etc.
* Saying that Rodgers has to shop for 'unproven' players is just making excuses. This is Liverpool football club! CL or no CL, quality players still want to play for the club (as proven by Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho etc) - Rodgers has just wasted tens of millions on the wrong players, over and over again.
I have a different take on this. The manager is definitely responsible for ensuring value for money for his squad, otherwise he is merely a coach. If the media can find out how much players earn (even if it not exact but approximation) then I am sure everyone in the dressing room knows what price range everyone is earning.
ReplyDeleteSo, if player 1 is earning X and player 2 is earning 2X, then I would expect player 2 to offer twice the value compared to player 1. If not, player 2 should be for the chop.
That doesn't make any sense at all as I never invoke the views of journalists to back up my own opinion. I'm not interested in what other journos say - I prefer to look at the available facts, and make up my own mind.
ReplyDeleteAvailable facts such as actual inside knowledge of professional journos who have connections to LFC you mean?
ReplyDeleteThere are many ways to interpret events I prefer to go in for the whole Occam's razor thing. You have your own take I see. Each to their own.
I agree, there are many ways to interpret events, and your method also has a lot of validity.
ReplyDeleteI've asked many people on many different discussions, exactly what does Allen do? To date, no-one has bene able to provide a viable answer.
ReplyDeleteHe not an attacking midfielder (zero assists, zero goals) and he's not a defensive midfielder (poor tackling and shielding stats compared to Lucas, say).
I hear he passes the ball, quickens play - but again the stats don't favour him in that category.
So can anyone explain why Allen is so good?
Well I thought that was funny... perhaps not pc.. but funny:)
ReplyDeleteI'd also be interested in an answer to that question.
ReplyDeleteBe prepared for an answer that avoids the issue, but mentions the following:
* He was man of the match in several games in his first few months.
* He played with a shoulder injury, which dulled his effectiveness.
Etc.
he is an accident that hasn't happened yet. unlike toure and cissokho that are accidents in progress.
ReplyDeletehansen................ok modern day.......kompany
ReplyDeleteno,no,no,no, istvan kosma or torben piecknik
ReplyDeleteIn fairness Lucas has one of the best stats in the league in that position. He is always available for the ball. His movement off the ball in that sense is very good. He is happy receive the ball in most situations having great control and poise. He passes quickly, in our system moving the ball around is really important. His stats have said he makes more key passes than Henderson (who I also rate). His tackling isn't great but interceptions is quite good, reading the play to get moving quickly. He can also beat a man in a tight situation. Not as good as Coutinho say but he can do it and this is obviously hopeful as a man is out of the situation.
ReplyDeleteHe is not magic but does a lot of things well having his energy, movement and good technique. He is an odd one in that you are right he is not a DM or AM. He is not even what I would call a box to box player. Perhaps its this difficulty in pigeon holing him that makes him hard for people to judge him as highly as he deserves.
Do you think Wanyama, Lovren and Eriksen would be starters or come off the bench for us? I'm not at all sure. Eriksen looks like a poor Coutinho. Spurs who are in a similar position to us signed lots of players and they've made many mistakes. It's not balanced to just select Eriksen. What about Oswaldo? Big mistake for Southampton.
ReplyDeleteThis is LFC but we are less attractive than at least 4 teams we are trying to catch. Rogers does have to gamble and that is a critical point when evaluating his performance. Pellegrini for example has the funds to buy guaranteed class every time. It isn't a level playing field.
I am confident that Wanyama, Lovren and Eriksen would be regular starters for LFC, and would do well for the club. They are on a different level to the likes of Alberto, Aspas etc. And Lovren for £8.5m is infinitely better value (IMO) than Sakho for £16m.
ReplyDeletePretty much agree with the story until you compared Sakho with Carroll Sakho is a monster and will prove a top quality signing.
ReplyDeleteMy wish is that united chelski city and arsenal get relegated.
ReplyDeleteOn this very rare occasion I actually agree with you in respect to the fact that sakho is technically weak while he is a mountain physically.
ReplyDeleteYou are funny but now you're trying to be too cute.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, initially I didn't "demand a level of proof"....I clearly pointed out that it plainly didn't exist....I see you've now removed the pedantry comments from your post so let's leave that there.
Empirically (in the individual observation sense you are using it...well you certainly can't claim any type of widespread scientific basis) I could try and state that the sun disappears every night and comes back every day and ergo.... it's a new sun each time....it'd still be a fallacious argument.
You mention "the law"... well circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict on its own, it can be supplementary to other more definitive evidence, but on its own is almost the very definition of "reasonable doubt" ....obviously there are exceptions but they usually end up winning in the appeal court.
So we get to being "just a fan with an opinion"...ah, the undeniable default.
And maybe because he can't be pigeon holed in a any identifiable midfield role would suggest, IMHO, he is not that good a player. Since if a player can neither impacts the offensive or defensive part of a team, he is a passenger.
ReplyDeleteCute passing, as you suggest, in the middle of the park without any end product, is exactly that - zero. I'd love to be able to sing his praises, or forgive the countless open goals and tap-ins he's missed (Everton away!!) - but I just can't.
Along with the likes of Aspas, Borini, Assaidi, Ilori, et al, Allen is a symptom of LFC's failed transfer policy. I'm sure someone has done the maths that we could have bought Mata and another £20m player for the amount wasted so far.
Real shame.
Thats the point. He affects both sides of the game, defensive and attacking he connects the two quite well. He is not a passenger but an enabler.
ReplyDeleteCountless open goals? "Countless"? Is one or two that difficult to count? Ive seen Henderson and Coutinho miss many more, they are just better liked than Allen.
We could count up all the players that we have never rated and buy Barcelona its a daft argument.
i agree sakho is a beast of a defender but i wouldnt be expecting him to bring the ball out like agger. All said and done our best pair is the same as last year agger and skirtel when fit! Skirtel has been immense all year. And playing on against bournemouth has endeared him even more.
ReplyDeleteCissokho again is good at defending - but he shouldnt be asked to bring the ball out - and accident waiting to happen. For all the talk of scouting teams - surely they would have checked on his ability to bring the ball out? Perhaps switching flanagan to left back and keeping kelly at right whilst johnson and enrique are out is our best option.
Toure and skirtel havent done bad either i think its 4 clean sheets in last 6.
On the ukrainian fiasco - i dread it when sky news report ian ayre has left the country - he certainly gets the airmiles in! I couldnt understand why we didnt go for cabaye - someone who would give us goals from midfield? Ever since BR came in Central Midfield has been crying out for reinforcements but we still seem to be relying on gerrard to produce the goods. If as Villa did gerrard is hijacked where going to be in a lot of trouble.
i think we are missing the point - ian ayre is reported to be signing deals left right and centre and then comes back with nothing - if fsg were unhappy about this then his head would roll! I think there is a certain element of design about this to keep the fans and perhaps even BR on board.
ReplyDeleteif liverpool have a good season i would not be surprised if BR goes, perhaps even to the england manager's job - because with the funding available top 4 is farthest that he can go - without really pulling rabbits out of the hat.
Couldn't disagree more. Liverpool have a transfer committee who draw up lists of players so presumably Salah and Konoplyanka are two of the top targets in that position, although it seems clear to most people that the midfield needs strengthening more than attack but that's an argument for another day. When Salah fell through then Konoplyanka was next choice although the fact he was always going to be more expensive possibly indicates that he was/is perhaps a summer target if/when Liverpool get a CL place.
ReplyDeleteHowever the cack-handed way the club goes about actually securing these players is very much open to question, not the identification process a good example is Willian who is looking like an astute purchase by Chelsea now. I honestly thought this faffing around was over with last year with the way they got Sturridge and Coutinho in reasonably early in January but obviously the Carroll/Downing failures were a serious obstacle with regards to the owners willingness to spurge a lot of cash on players. And the summer buys haven't added anything to the 1st team at all, Sakho remains the exception but we haven't seen enough of him yet to make any kind of balanced judgement.
Although you could argue that the £23m spent on Suarez was worth it as he's easily worth 3-4 times that amount now. The way he is sometimes single-handedly dragging the team through some games is in many ways Maradona-esque and while Messi & Ronaldo are arguably on a different level to everyone else I wonder if they swapped places would they have the same impact?
I still do not understand why the Dinpro owner allowed Kono to agree personal terms with Liverpool and have a medical but refuse to sign the papers. It just does not make sense to me.
ReplyDeleteRemember that we paid £18 for Glenn Johnson
ReplyDeleteAgreed in the most part, however would a manager actually suggest a cap on the amount of money to spend? I doubt it.. Dalglish had an idea of how he wanted to move forward, wingers / big man up front with an emphasis on bringing in more British players (which in itself adds a premium) it didn't work out as hoped, but with a net transfer spend of minus a couple of mil in that window and the fact that we still have Suarez, it could have been worse IMO.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you.. A player who can't pass the ball and always fall down after pass the ball..but I have to agree he is a good defender but lacking in passing game ability
ReplyDeleteDont forget that KD had a choice between Mata and Downing. The rest is history as they say.
ReplyDelete