Yesterday, I argued yesterday that Liverpool possibly made a mistake in loaning Victor moses instead of Romelu Lukaku - a proven goalscorer in the Premier League - but Reds midfielder Jordan Henderson is absolutely convinced that Moses will be a massive success at Anfield.
Henderson - who played alongside Moses at youth level for England - insists the 22-year old is a 'fantastic talent', and insists that 'contribute to the team' over the coming months. He raved:
"He [Moses] will be a brilliant addition to the squad and I'm really looking forward to seeing him.
"He's very talented. He's powerful, he's good with the ball, he can use both feet and he's good at cutting inside or going on down the outside".
"Victor is a quick player and he can get goals as well. I think he's perfect for our team. Hopefully he'll do really well here."
Moses obviously has great ability, and hopefully he'll have a similar impact to Daniel Sturridge and Philipe Coutinho. However, I just can't overlook the paucity of his end product over the last three years:
* 18 goals/8 assists in 90 apps.
* Goal every 5 apps.
* Assist every 11 apps.
* Goal/Assist every 3.5 apps.
* PREM only: 8 goals/5 assists in 80 apps.
* PREM only: Goal every 10 apps.
* PREM only: Assist every 16 apps.
* PREM only: Goal/Assist every 6 apps.
LAST SEASON
* TOTAL Mins on pitch = 2619 (Prem = 1224 | Cups = 1395)
Goals
* OVERALL: 1 every 261 mins
* PREM ONLY: 1 every 1224 mins
* CUPS ONLY: 1 every 155 mins.
Assists
* OVERALL: 1 assist every 654 mins.
* PREM ONLY: 1 every 1224 mins.
* CUPS ONLY: 1 every 465 mins.
Moses' Premier League stats are not up to scratch, and he clearly has to improve his goal/assist ratio if he's going to be a success at Liverpool.
It's all well and good being a 'fantastic talent', but end product is what matters, and right now, Moses' end product in the Premier League leaves a lot to be desired.
Stewart Downing's end product over the last three years is very similar to Moses, yet Liverpool got rid of him for failing to score/create goals consistently enough:
* 15 goals/18 assists in 127 apps.
* Goal every 8 apps.
* Assist every 7 apps.
* Goal/Assist every 3.8 apps.
* PREM only: 13 goals/12 assists in 103 apps.
* PREM only: Goal every 8 apps.
* PREM only: Assist every 8 apps.
* PREM only: Goal/Assist every 4 apps.
As you can see, Downing's goal/assist rate in the Premier league is *superior* to Moses over the last three years, and that includes season 2011-12, when he failed to score create a single Premier League goal.
If Downing is deemed to be not good enough for Liverpool, what makes Moses a better solution? Okay, he didn't cost £20m, and his wages will probably be a lot lower (!), but in terms of end product, there's very little difference between the two.
Will the Nigerian international be able to make the step-up and contribute regularly? One thing is certain: a Premier League rate of one assist every sixteen appearances is not going to cut it at LFC.
Is Moses capable of improving his end product by at least 50%?
Jaimie Kanwar
NOTE: Please stick to the Comment Policy (Click to read)
Henderson - who played alongside Moses at youth level for England - insists the 22-year old is a 'fantastic talent', and insists that 'contribute to the team' over the coming months. He raved:
"He [Moses] will be a brilliant addition to the squad and I'm really looking forward to seeing him.
"He's very talented. He's powerful, he's good with the ball, he can use both feet and he's good at cutting inside or going on down the outside".
"Victor is a quick player and he can get goals as well. I think he's perfect for our team. Hopefully he'll do really well here."
Moses obviously has great ability, and hopefully he'll have a similar impact to Daniel Sturridge and Philipe Coutinho. However, I just can't overlook the paucity of his end product over the last three years:
* 18 goals/8 assists in 90 apps.
* Goal every 5 apps.
* Assist every 11 apps.
* Goal/Assist every 3.5 apps.
* PREM only: 8 goals/5 assists in 80 apps.
* PREM only: Goal every 10 apps.
* PREM only: Assist every 16 apps.
* PREM only: Goal/Assist every 6 apps.
LAST SEASON
* TOTAL Mins on pitch = 2619 (Prem = 1224 | Cups = 1395)
Goals
* OVERALL: 1 every 261 mins
* PREM ONLY: 1 every 1224 mins
* CUPS ONLY: 1 every 155 mins.
Assists
* OVERALL: 1 assist every 654 mins.
* PREM ONLY: 1 every 1224 mins.
* CUPS ONLY: 1 every 465 mins.
Moses' Premier League stats are not up to scratch, and he clearly has to improve his goal/assist ratio if he's going to be a success at Liverpool.
It's all well and good being a 'fantastic talent', but end product is what matters, and right now, Moses' end product in the Premier League leaves a lot to be desired.
Stewart Downing's end product over the last three years is very similar to Moses, yet Liverpool got rid of him for failing to score/create goals consistently enough:
* 15 goals/18 assists in 127 apps.
* Goal every 8 apps.
* Assist every 7 apps.
* Goal/Assist every 3.8 apps.
* PREM only: 13 goals/12 assists in 103 apps.
* PREM only: Goal every 8 apps.
* PREM only: Assist every 8 apps.
* PREM only: Goal/Assist every 4 apps.
As you can see, Downing's goal/assist rate in the Premier league is *superior* to Moses over the last three years, and that includes season 2011-12, when he failed to score create a single Premier League goal.
If Downing is deemed to be not good enough for Liverpool, what makes Moses a better solution? Okay, he didn't cost £20m, and his wages will probably be a lot lower (!), but in terms of end product, there's very little difference between the two.
Will the Nigerian international be able to make the step-up and contribute regularly? One thing is certain: a Premier League rate of one assist every sixteen appearances is not going to cut it at LFC.
Is Moses capable of improving his end product by at least 50%?
Jaimie Kanwar
NOTE: Please stick to the Comment Policy (Click to read)
imo he his no better than downing lets hope he proves me wrong,i just cannot see him starting ,the only player i can see rodgers dropping to give him a start is hendo and i know who i would rather have,
ReplyDeleteAspas? Suarez, Sturridge and Moses in front of Coutinho?
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt if Lukaku was a realistic option for us. I like the signing of Moses because it will allow Coutinho to drop back into the middle and after his performances against Villa and Man U, I think he needs to play there. He was pretty ineffective on the left in the last 2 matches.
ReplyDeleteWait and see. He will do Weill and Moses got more goals than downing in all competitions last year and he spent most of the time on the bench.
ReplyDeleteHe'll have a similar impact to Sturridge, as I think he is another player that needs to play regularly. You have to remember that most of his PL appearances were from the bench. He's europa league, fa cup and league cup stats are all much better, because he actually played for longer than 20 minutes per game. Also he practically kept Wigan in the league on his own for a couple of seasons. If he was rubbish Mourinho would've sold him to us, and if it turns he isn't any good then we haven't lost anything have we.
ReplyDeleteLast season:
ReplyDeleteDOWNING: 11 goals/assists in 45 apps (3 league goals)
MOSES: 14 goals/Assists in 44 apps (1 league goal)
Hardly a major difference.
I think the same. Aspas on the bench. Coutinho in the centre and Moses out wide. Looks ok to me.
ReplyDelete'Practically kept Wigan in the league on his own' - This is just not true in any way, shape or form.
ReplyDelete* 8 goals in 71 games for Wigan over 3 years. This is not the return of someone saving the club from relegation.
Don't forget only 23 of Moses premier league appearances have been for Chelsea, the rest were for a Wigan side that was battling relegation. Surely with better forwards that are quick enough to keep up with Moses then this will create more opportunities for assists?
ReplyDeleteBeing a loan deal i can only see it as being a good thing having him in the squad.
no what about hendo will moses score more ans assist more than hendo over a season ,i doubt it ,and you can bet your bottom dollar he will not get through half the work load
ReplyDeleteMost of Moses apps were off the bench, that has to be factored into the stats. If Moses given the game time he will show us his quality, plus I trust BR judgement.
ReplyDeleteIt's not all about stats. Time will tell. He may turn out to be a decent option, but personally, I was hoping for something better. Problem is, there weren't many options so late in the window.
ReplyDeleteHave you taken into account that Moses hardly started any Premiership games. He invariably came on as a sub with less than 20 minutes to go! In contrast nearly all of Downings "appearances" we're starts so that makes a huge difference in minutes played!
ReplyDeleteI watched a lot of Wigan's games that year, including a couple live. There were a couple of other players who did well, but Moses established the way Wigan played in attack with his pace and reliability on the ball. He played from wing-back through to inside right, centre-forward and wing, often in the same attacking move. He was absolutely outstanding in a team which offered him little creative support. I think he'll surprise you, Jamie!
ReplyDeleteWhy does the fact he made sub appearances make a difference? Moses spent 1224 minutes on the pitch in the Prem last season, and scored only 1 goal. I trust BR's judgement too, and maybe Moses will be a superstar. I'm just suggesting that his past record doesn't suggest he'll be prolific.
ReplyDeleteQuite possibly the worst analysis i've ever seen attempted. You've just compared stats for someone that was 19-22 in age compared to someone who was 26-29 in age. To simplify things a but for you, you just compared someone who was developing their game v someone who should be at their peak! That is just 1 reason why your analysis is extremely poor i could pick 4/5 points.
ReplyDelete1224 minutes played in the league last season. One goal scored. Just saying 'he made a lot of sub appearances' is not an argument, and that (in and of itself) doesn't automatically explain his lack of specific, measurable impact.
ReplyDeleteWell, I won't judge him until and unless he plays in a Reds jersey. I feel he can do a Coutinho or Sturridge impact for us and make it clear for us all of what he is. Lets hope he can hit the ground running on all engines. If a Sturridge not running on all his engines can sink ManU I fear what he'd do on when all his engines are firing. I can see Moses being played on either of the wings feeding Sturridge with a lot of chances that he's going to convert into goals.
ReplyDeleteStats does not matter cos if it does, we wouldn't be singing sturridge's name today,
ReplyDeleteso don't be an hater Jamie K
Be supportive, i doubt if you are a liverpool supporter
I am sure Coutinho's stats weren't prolific as well.
ReplyDeleteI think moses will be a good squad player, especially against more physical opposition. Also, I read this promising article about FSG and anfield!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.juicefm.com/news/local/260m-anfield-regeneration-gets-thumbs-up-from-residents/
Have to agree with you Mack. Moses found some serious form for Wigan from January onwards before moving to Chelsea, he has since then stagnated a little but that is due to lack of game time. Like Sturridge when at Bolton, Moses has shown when he has played a full run of games what he is capable of. Not knocking your Stats Jamie but they definitely don't paint a fair reflection of the player in any shape or form. He has bucketloads of ability and won games single handely for Wigan when the pressure was hugely on them when in an absolute dog fight, just the type of the player any team would like to have.
ReplyDeleteThe stats are based on appearances, which is misleading. He played 1124 minutes almost half as many as Downing (2194).
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure lukaku is suited to the position BR would want him to play which will wide left of right. If you play him up front centre then u need to move sturridge out or if he is injured Suarez. Don't believe he is better than either so its all about fitting good players (which IMO Moses is) into the team pattern which so collectively we are a stronger. Individual statistics count for nothing. Is he better than downing well that's debateable, for me yes as he style (pace) is better suited to our game.
ReplyDeleteStats aren't a true reflection in this case. The main stats are for Wigan so you have to allow that they aren't going to create or assist as many for a lesser quality team. Secondly, what is an appearance, can you class 5 minutes as an appearance, yes. Can you compare 5 minutes to a full 90, no. Most of the Chelsea appearances have been bit part at best, with no run of games. Also take into account that he is young and has been learning, he's 22. The article doesn't take any mitigating factors into account, so I have to call it biased. I think Moses will be a good signing, he gives us something we don't have, pace!
ReplyDeleteMoses is a decent buy..ll definitely increase the squad strength..better than lukaku (on wings and he will fit into the team better).
ReplyDeleteMore negative comments about liverpool on this page. Another day, another lists of stats to undermine what liverpool are trying to do.
ReplyDeleteJaime we were never offered a choice of player to take ....so why do you still keep saying we made the wrong decision....Moses was at Melwood on the Saturday and Lukaku was only offered to Everton at 8 pm on the Monday evening . IMO Moses will be just fine ............
ReplyDeleteLike a few others here, I think this is a bit negative. Firstly, you can use statistics to prove any point you like, 79 % of people know that*. As suggested, many of Moses' appearance came from the bench, and as such, using the number of apps made is misleading. Even minutes played can be an poor reflection, but it is the easiest way to compare. You have also taken the average over 3 seasons, which again skews the results - but lets see these PL stats anyway:
ReplyDeleteMoses (Year, mins played, goals, assists)
2012/13 1214 1g 1a
2011/12 3212 6g 6a
2010/11 815 1g 1a
Downing
2012/13 2191 3g 6a
2011/12 3212 0g 0a
2010/11 815 7g 9a
Over past 3 seasons, Moses is 1 goal per 7 "games" - where I use 90mins as 1 "game", 1 assist in 5, very similar to his average over last 2 seasons, which is 1 in 7 for both goals and assists.
Downing however, over 3 years is 1 in 8 for goals, and 1 in 5 for assists, but over the last 2 years is 1 in 17 for goals, and 1 in 6 for assists - as you don't take into account his great year for villa..
I'm not saying Moses' stats are great, but considering he is hungry to impress, (hopefully) improving and obviously cheaper, it is a decent upgrade on Downing. It's clear that we didn't get our main targets and didn't want to panic buy - hence the loan. Hopefully it means we will assess new targets and go straight for them first thing in January.
As for Lukaku, there is no way that Chelsea would loan him to us. He would only be 3rd choice (behind two of the best in the league in Sturridge and Suarez) to start in the 1 position up front. They want him to play every week which isn't going to happen. He would have been an excellent signing for us however so it is slightly disappointing (especially as he's gone to Everton..)
(* - This statistic may not be 100% accurate..)
Downing got his stats while he was at LFC, a top end of the table team that attacks the opposition where he was surrounded by quality players. Moses was at Wigan, struggling against relegation year in, year out. It's simply not as easy to score when you're at such a club because the club, generally, scores less goals (possibly created less chances). Also, Torres scored about 15 league goals per season when he was at Atletico.
ReplyDeleteTrue that, what people seem to miss is that if Coutinho or Suarez for that matter, move in behind Sturridge, one of our three midfielders will lose their spot. Seeing as that BR is in love with Lucas and Gerrard being undroppable,, it will be Henderson who finally is coming into his own. Personally I'd like Coutinho to stay on the left, Suarez on the right and let Aspas and Moses fight to earn their place in the team.
ReplyDeleteWhich would be a problem, if he were a starter like Downing. He may very well not be.
ReplyDeletethats the way i would go ,and if players do not perform aspas and moses come in ,
ReplyDeleteSo lazio wanted to buy borini, we said no, so he must have a future under BR.
ReplyDeleteMy comment taken down? It was only pointing out that the majority of stories brought up on Liverpool-Kop are negative and un-constructive. Moses is only 22, give the lad a chance to prove himself before you drag up stats to discredit his performances in a Liverpool shirt. Some might formulate the opinion that JK actually doesn't like LFC. And in the interest of fair and balanced debate, leave this post up.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't get much game time in the league and scored quite a few goals in Europe, BR is a great motivator, plus Moses has something to prove as hes been a bench warmer and will want to show he is a starter, a similer situation to Coutinio and Sturridge when they came in, fingers crossed he has the same impact as they did
ReplyDeleteHenderson would still probably start - do his thing, keep his intensity high for 70 min or so, then Moses comes on who "looks" like he has the same pace, and power, might not be bad.
ReplyDeleteI keep seeing that Liverpool made a mistake of not going after Lukaku, like it was our decision!!!
ReplyDeleteThere was no well in hell that Chelsea would of loaned us Lukaku.
There are already rumors that JM was furious that Chelsea sold DS to us so do you honestly think he would sanction a deal letting Lukaku join us, do us a favour.
I would of loved Lukaku to come to Liverpool but the fact is Chelsea would never of allowed it, just like they wouldn't sanction Ba moving to Arsenal, who by the way is struggling to get on the bench at Chelsea, let alone the starting 11.
Wow u really need to learn to tke criticism better JK, my post was offensive in no way and removing tells me a lot about you.
ReplyDeleteThe stats are completely distorted by sub appearances etc. If you want a more accurate depiction of his qualities look at his time at Wigan the season before.. Considering the sides position in the league they're pretty impressive, he's now going to be with several similar players that are hugely creative. You need to look beyond the raw stats sometimes..
ReplyDeleteDowning had monster stats before joining us
ReplyDeleteEnded up with 0 goals, 0 assists.
Stats are a back up, not a deciding factor
And scoring/assisting from the subs bench is a VERY specialist role. Only a few have mastered it. Fairclough did, but didn't enjoy it. Solksjaer was great at it. But it's very hard
Blimey you do back you KD players don't you JC?
ReplyDeleteMay be that the reason we sign him on LOAN....wait and see what will come out..
ReplyDeleteWait for few game WITH LIVERPOOL SHIRT only debate his capability comparing to other that would be more fair rite???
1224 minutes over 23 games only averages 53 minutes per game.. Even if you times 53 minutes (As I don't know the minutes of game time Downing had, though it will certain be a lot more than 53) by 29 (the amount of times SD played), Stewart Downing played over 300m (3 games and 1/3) more, yet had less direct involvement in goals i.e scoring and assists.. The stats also don't reflect his role in build up play etc!
ReplyDeleteNo. Everything is open to debate/discussion. There's no rule stipulating we have to wait X amount of time before considering how a player may perform at LFC. Only those who try and stifle debate put these constraints on discussion.
ReplyDelete8 goals/7 assists in 43 apps is hardly 'monster' stats (!)
ReplyDeleteIn terms of style, there are considerable differences between the two. So hopefully that difference is what makes Moses a better fit for Rodgers than Downing.
ReplyDeleteThis really amuses me. Why are stats 'distorted' by sub appearances? Just saying it doesn't make it correct. It's an excuse without merit (IMO). Moses had 1224 minutes on the pitch last season in the Prem. He scored one goal.
ReplyDeleteAs for the previous year at Wigan:
* 6 goals in 39 appearances (36 starts).
* 1 goal every 6 games.
* ONE ASSIST in 39 apps.
How is this 'pretty impressive'?
2194 minutes Downing played, 2194/29=just over 75.5 mins per game.. 2194-1224=970m, 10 and about 8/10s of a match more than Moses
ReplyDeleteBemoaning, belittling drivel....every time i (accidentally) stumble upon this site that's all i hear from jaimie k. If indeed you are a lfc fan, try posting something positive once and a while instead of this constant barrage upon lfc players and fans. 1 million loan fee, for a player that gives us extra options at the end of the day is better than 20 million plus 90k a week.
ReplyDeleteOr they wanted him for peanuts. They, the Italian clubs, did a good number on us with Aquilani, I'll give them that!
ReplyDeleteI still don't see the relevance of this. It's just an excuse. 1224 mins on the pitch is 1224 mins on the pitch! Moses' primary role in the team is to score and create goals. I have merely pointed out that his goalscoring/assist stats do not paint a picture of someone who is going to be prolific in that regard for LFC. No matter how many ways you try and muddy the water, it doesn't change the fact that he scored only 1 goal in 1224 minutes of Premier League football last season.
ReplyDeleteThat is a fact, and it is a concern.
Again, why is this relevant? How does this make any difference to the fact that Moses scored only ONE goal in 1224 minutes of Prem football last season?
ReplyDeleteStats can say this and that, but Moses beats his full back more consistently than Downing. This leads to their CB moving out of position and making their holding MID dropping deeper to cover the space (allowing our holding player and controller to step up and pepper their goal with attempts). I honestly don't think we'll out right buy Moses, we are using one and other to further themselves. He wasn't the calibre of player we initially looked at, so we are filling a void to allow Philippe to play centrally.
ReplyDeleteStatistics can be used and twisted to mean whatever you want them to mean. I think that some of the responses on this site have highlighted alternative ways of looking at the raw stastics to paint Moses as a better player than Downing. Then you factor in the teams that these respective players were playing for over the duration that the statistics were being gathered and this weighs in Moses' favour too. From what I have see on him, I personally think that Moses could be a really good addition to the squad but Henderson would know him a lot better than any of us and is much better placed to make this judgement.
ReplyDeleteBrendan`s rationale is pretty simple to understand. He needed a winger to play on the left so that coutinho can be shifted to his best position as a number 10. That`s why BR went for Moses and not Lukaku. We dont need another striker, we already got Sturridge and Suarez...And by the way, what was it that you said about Suarez, huh? He is leaving for Arsenal? You told us so? hahaha! As the saying goes: Dont count your chickens before they hatch. You are looking pretty foolish now, arent you?
ReplyDeleteI can't help but agree with leonlock (who's posts have been removed) that the majority of stories on this site do seem to be aimed at discrediting positive notions and crediting negative notions towards LFC, with the occassional rare exception to this rule. Not sure what Jaimie's agenda is really but what he does do is invoke some great discussions between fans who are not always suckered by misleading statistics and he should be creditied for that.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't look at his overall play at Wigan though, they're just numbers.. They don't reflect how he performed, for instance the build up he may have played in games, runs he made off the ball to create space for players.. The pass he may have played one before the pass fur the assist, the corner he won that led up to a goal.. Several things not reflected by stars that he may well have done in matches. Also, you look at the quality of players he had around him, they're nothing compared to what's at Liverpool. Up front they had Franco Di Santo, hardly a prolific Goalscorer. They also don't reflect the importance of the goals he scored, oabd the assist stats don't reflect how many goalscoring opportunities he created.. If you look at his performances for Wigan at the end of the season, they were a contributing factor in their Premier League survival, and clearly good enough to merit a transfer to a big team. A million and one things that those stats don't tell us.
ReplyDeleteAlso, substitute appearances can distort statsin many ways, for example if you're playing the last 10/15 minutes of a game you're winning 2-0 and closing out, you're going to have less of a chance to be creative and forge opportunities, and your team mates will be potentially be playing in a same way as that, in a less offensive manner, you may also have less time to get into the flow of a match, there may be less flow to a match, as you're using a less offensive approach. Many aspects can distort the game time you're playing, what your team is doing in those minutes is just as important as the amount of minutes themselves. Football isn't played on paper!
Simple : Overall goals last season
ReplyDeleteDowning minutes per goal : 199
Moses minutes per goal: 80.2
Epl index has Moses at 1124 mins played, Downing at 2194
Love this response... hopefully anyone who was suckered by these selective stats has been taught a lesson and can now appreciate that a set of statistics only tells the story that the story teller want them to tell !!
ReplyDeleteI was just highlighting how the comparison between the stats of Downing and him aren't exactly as close as you seemed to be implying, considering Downing had a substantial amount more game time than Moses did, even if it was only 6 games less that he featured in, when he had nearly 11 games more playing time, over 1/4 of the season more!
ReplyDeletei enjoy reading these debates but very rarely post anything, however this debate is a cracker.
ReplyDeleteI kind of agree with JK to some extent that it doesn't matter how long a player has been on the pitch for, however i will liken this transfer to our good old friend Emile Heskey - players that played with him raved about what he done for the team, and in essence as it is a team game that is the main thing, so if Moses makes direct runs that pull people out of position (which he done quite frequently at Wigan and Chelsea) and a goal scoring chance is created for someone else is that not a good thing, Moses will not get the goal or the assist but it would not be possible without the runner creating the space, i couldn't care less who scores or creates as long as we win, if DS doesn't score again this season and we get 4th or a cup do we care? No, so lets give Moses and the others a chance. Aspas is another who makes great runs, but his goals to games ratio is not great.
Everything is open to debate/discussion. However the debate/discussion would hold a lot more weight if we wait a little and compare Moses' stats for LFC with Downing's stats for LFC - but also do this without overlooking fundamental differences in the circumstances surrounding playing time etc like starts / sub appearances. A true statastician would never look at such a narrow amount of data to draw to a conclusion.
ReplyDeleteApologies for the mass of typos in that, Disqus isn't the friendliest of customers to an iPhone haha!
ReplyDeleteI think that this was in response to your opinion that Downings PREM stats were *superior* to Moses'
ReplyDelete11 goals and 13 assists in 72 games for Villa. And 6.3 crosses average per game were decent stats
ReplyDeletefair enough, monster is overdoing it, but better than most of his peers.
You still fail to address that the stats didn't predict the reality. His passing accuracy was over 85% but he produced nothing that year.
Posts that simply moan about the approach of the site are deleted. They serve no purpose. My agenda is simple, and it's stated at the top of the page: 'Critical realism about LFC'. It's been that way from day one. Question everything. Look at things in a different way etc. It's not a deliberate attempt to be 'different'. This is how I think, so it's a perfectly natural approach for me.
ReplyDeleteLies, Utter Lies and Statistics............. Stats on their own mean nothing. Fact is he is unwanted just like Sturridge and Coutinho. Have faith in Rodgers. I think he was a great transfer and on loan too.
ReplyDeleteThat is just another way of promoting censorship. What you're basically suggesting is that speculative debate about new players should never happen. How is that logical?
ReplyDeleteIf I'd written a post raving about Moses and predicting he'll be the next Lionel Messi, I sincerely doubt you'd be saying 'well, we should wait until he he's played some games to praise him'.
It's the same old story: post something that people don't like and they will find infinite ways to derail the debate.
Plus, I don't claim to be a 'true statistician'. I've made an argument, and provided persuasive stats to back it up.
You're right, but prior to Downing's signing, I didn't argue he would be some kind of superstar for Liverpool, and I didn't predict that he'd have an amazing first season.
ReplyDeleteStats are not the be all and end all, but they are persuasive, and have far more value when assessing a player's possible impact than subjective value judgments like 'I trust Rodgers so he'll do well', or 'he could be like Coutinho and Sturridge'.
Jaimie let it go!
ReplyDeleteWhat are the stats in minutes?
ReplyDeleteApps are misleading. Go by minutes and Moses looks far superior to Downing
ReplyDeleteYour argument is predicated upon speculative positives that you have no personal knowledge even exist.
ReplyDeleteYou keep going on about build-up play. How do you know Moses' build up play was as amazing as you seem to suggest?! Did you watch every game he played to draw that conclusion? I doubt it.
Moses' primary role in the team is not to excel at 'build-up play' - it is to SCORE and CREATE goals, and his impact in this area is simply not good enough, either for Chelsea or for Wigan.
One assist in 39 appearances (36 starts) in 2011-12 is extremely poor, and the fact he had good build up play doesn't change that.
As a comparison: LFC may have good build up play as a team, but if the players don't score/create goals, that build up is utterly irrelevant.
Whether Moses merited a move to a big club is not the point here. His end product is the point. Last season, he got ONE GOAL in 1224 minutes of Prem pitch time. No matter how you try and muddy the waters, that is not good enough.
You talk about the players around Moses at Wigan being inferior; well, at Chelsea, he played with some of the best players in Europe, and still only managed 1 goal in 1224 mins. In fact, he scored LESS than when he played with alleged inferior players at Wigan.
Downing played first team football in his peak. Moses is 22 years old. Three years ago he was 19 Downing was 26. Last season Moses was not getting first team football. Damned lies and statistics.
ReplyDeleteWhy should I 'let it go'? This is a discussion, and everyone has their own view. I guess I should just conform to the group view, eh? Thanks, but that's what sheeple do, not people who actually have their own individual views.
ReplyDeleteEPL index is wrong. I calculated the minuted by individually totally every game played in the league.
ReplyDeleteYou might think its moaning jamie, but your search for "Critical Realism about LFC" over time has in my opinion slipped on to a negative path. In the case of VM, He has played in two very different set ups. Wigan were always struggling and its difficult to impress going forward if your team is on the back foot. And when he got his chance he did well, earning himself a move to Chelsea. He did ok there with all the uncertainty and turmoil that club endured last season. Plus he had Hazard, Mata and Oscar further up the pecking order. A move to LFC will offer him the chance to prove that he can be a talent. So i wouldn't write him off just yet.
ReplyDeleteWhether the approach of the site is 'negative' or not is irrelevant, and moaning about it detracts from the discussion taking place. Please stick to discussing the issues at hand.
ReplyDeleteI haven't written Moses off. It's always amazes me how narrow-minded LFC fans can be. If someone veers away from the black and white views demanded by the 'group', they're immediately deemed to be 'negative' etc.
I offer a different perspective on LFC to most, and if you or anyone else doesn't like it, you don't have to visit this site. There are plenty of LFC sites out there that will give you the ego boost you desire. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about - fans love to read stuff that reinforces their own personal view, and when they don't get that, they don't like it.
why didnt we take piazon before he moved to another club on loan is a better mystery ._
ReplyDelete.
I'm well aware that I'm making several asumptions in the argument, all I'm highlighting is that your argument of him being a good signing being based entirely on the end product stats of last year is irrational as it does not factor in these significant parts of football, such as build up play or the context of the minutes he was on the field. I'm not saying anything that I've wrote is definite, but they are possibilities a d variables that your account of his recent career does not mention. I of course did not watch every Wigan match, but you can see that he did have a big impact on their survival, it was general consensus at the time.
ReplyDeleteI also find it quite telling that you completely discarded his Europa League stats, I appreciate the reasons that you did it.. But failure to mention them is failure to represent a huge section of his most creative football in the last season.
As much as your argument of one goal in 1224 minutes shows he scored once last year, the fact about statistics is that they just reflect that one thing, they tell us nothing of the circumstances of those 1224 minutes. You could throw many stats at me from Coutinho's time at Inter to show he wouldn't be a good signing, doesn't mean they're right or reflect the whole picture.
I ultimately feel that failure to acknowledge anything other aspects of his game, as well as stats which highlight his positives means that you aren't accurately represent the player that we've signed and it's almost like you've loaded them to just reflect your point of view, which I feel is a shame as you do reflect a really insightful view into what's happening at our club. Your article highlighted that his end product wasn't that good in the Premier League last season. But for me, that's all it did.. It doesn't reflect the entirety of what the player has done in the last two years (as I said, football isn't played on paper), and excludes too much to prove that he isn't that good a signing, as your title seems to incinuate.
So i offer the opinion that your articles are somewhat negative and you respond by saying i and other posters who don't agree with you are narrow-minded and in search of an ego boost. Suggestion is laughable at best.
ReplyDeleteI think my comment on the stats being loaded is unfair actually, but it dies look like you've picked and chosen the wins that best suit your argument and could have at least referenced the Europa League stats or acknowledged that end product stats aren't everything and that there are multiple factors that could play a part in why those stats are like that.. For example, the time of game he played, the opponents, how many we're sub appearances, what could that potentially mean to how creative you could be in the match. As for my Europa League stats, potentially weak opponents could distort them. Too many variables for the bar stats to be truly representative.
ReplyDeleteI was not overly excited about Moses signing due to the fact of his poor end product , (you could say his stats are taken when he was early in his development stage and he also has not had a considerable run of games at Chelsea to get into rhythm which is why Jose was more than happy to loan him to us). On the other hand Moses offers a lot more strength, (Nigerian so im not surprised), pace, flair and can actually dribble compared to downing. Everything required in a flexible winger , the most important factor is this will allow to Phil to be in his CAM role which is where he desperately needs to be playing if we are going to get the best balance of our team and maximise our forwards goal scoring opportunities. You would have to agree that Phil has been fairly poor/anonymous/ineffective in his first three games due to defenders closing him down immediately on the wing and Stevie and Lucas are siting far to deep making the gap between them and Phil far to big . So overall happy about Moses signing as it provides a better balance to the team .
ReplyDeleteMoses on the left , Phil behind Dani , Hendo stays on the right Attacking mid , (the only worry is we need Johno bursting down the line to offer more width to allow hendo to drift in field.)
ReplyDeleteEvery player knows that you become prolific with more game time. The more game time you get the more confident you get. The more goals you score. You'll only understand if you're a player.
ReplyDeleteSorry, it just seems like you are disliking Moses as he is not Lukaku. I don't think the comparisons to Downing were unfair as there are lost of things like that were not taken in to consideration such as age, actual game time etc. Its sound I do actually appreciate these articles getting put up. Just seem slightly vendetaish after the other article.
ReplyDeleteSorry fair rather than unfair. The one that makes sense anyway.
ReplyDeleteMate have you not been watching how ineffective Phil is on the left , its a waste . Look his a quality player so he could probably still do a job there but we are not maximising his full potential . He needs to be playing through the middle it is quite obvious . Against Swans I fully expect to see him behind Dani pulling the strings with moses and hendo on the wings. I know its not Hendos best position but with his work rate it does not really matter where he plays because he will be up and down the line as well as in the middle . Imagine Hendo, Dani, Moses running hole game with Phil supplying them and Stevie and Lucas protecting them . (Though in Suarez for Mo and we have a mouth watering prospect.)
ReplyDeleteA lot of apologists for Andy Carroll used to point out that Carrol was young at 24/25 years of age and had a long time to improve his game. Jaime has clearly stated his dislike for Victor Moses who he views as an average footballer. If Victor Moses at 22 is only as good as Downing then the thinking belief by Brendan Rodgers is that by 29 he will be far better than Downing.
ReplyDeleteClearly Brendan Rodgers sees in Victor Moses a player with a lot of potential. Moses possess something which makes him very valuable for Liverpool and that is a lot of pace. It is also clear that Downing had a lot of pace too but unlike Downing, Moses has better ball control in tight spaces. Meaning he won't generate than many turn overs. Moses possess better technique over all on the ball which is why Rodgers values him a little better than Downing.
If i may be perfectly honest it's Downings blistering pace that convinced our Northern Irishman to keep him a little bit longer. He eventually gave a warning to Downing stating that he would put names in a hat and pull them out if there were no performance improvements from the winger and a few other players. At the end of the day his pace clearly was not enough as the winger was shipped off to Liverpool's other reserve team West Ham.
Clearly it is obvious when judging Moses and Downing on their footballing skills alone and not solely on the amount of goals scored that Moses is simply a more technically gifted player than is Downing. Ofcourse Lukaku would have been the best sighing but it wasn't in the cards.
dont think BR rates Lukaku as highly as somebody who would fit his system or else he should have bid, just like he did for Mata.
ReplyDeleteYou make some good points, but please do not misquote me.
ReplyDelete"Jaime has clearly stated his dislike for Victor Moses who he views as an average footballer.
This is grossly inaccurate. There is no personal element to my views on Moses. I do not 'dislike' him, and I have not stated that he is 'average'. I've merely point out that his part history does not suggest that he will be a prolific creator/scorer for LFC.
on the other hand Moses may not be prolific, but he made good contribution during Chelseas Europa win, and the season before with Wigan when they went on to beat couple of top 4 team to escape relegation. Plus if he does well there is better chance to be able to keep him
ReplyDeleteAt least Hendo knows what he is talking about.
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit rich you throwing out phrases like "narrow-minded" and "black and white" considering your blind faith in narrow statistics
ReplyDeleteHow much impact can any player have with only about 20min of game time every week? Of course these stats unfairly reflect Moses' talent...
ReplyDeleteBut your stats are during a time where we was playing in a poor team as Wigan showed to be year after year and then at a time when time on the pitch was restricted to a few minutes at a time at Chelsea
ReplyDeleteWhy do people bother with this site?? The author clearly has his own views on lfc, and anyone that questions this gets deleted. Man up and quit deleting posts that challenge you. Your word is not the be all and end all. Look up the definition of support........!.
ReplyDeletei hope so he deserves his chance ,not long now to the master returns:-)
ReplyDeletenothing to do with him being a kenny player,he gives 110% every game ,he imo as been dropped unfairly in the past and each time hes fought his way back into the starting eleven,and as shown he can cut it at anfield dispite everything
ReplyDeleteand suarez
ReplyDeleteWhen/If available I will slot him in Moses position. Allowing him to drift in field to cut in on his stronger foot. Look Dani , Phil and Luis are all extremely flexible and like to move around naturally (which will cause nightmares for defenders ) I think the three of them with Lucas,Stevie and Hendo in midfield we will win more games than we will loose. Aspas , Moses and sterling from the bench doesn't look to shabby either . (pace,power and hopefully goals)
ReplyDeleteAgreed mate, Glad someone else can see what is glaringly obvious.
ReplyDeleteBig picture - I think it's a good signing;
ReplyDeleteBringing someone like Moses (young, strong, quick, and has experience with a big club) will provide very real competition for the young players, and this will only improve the squad.
Cost - 1M plus wages; at that price, expecting him to score/assist 20 goals a season is pretty ambitious. I think the real purpose is what he brings to the squad - depth and competition
I don't have 'blind faith' in anything. I believe in backing up opinions with persuasive evidence, and the stats in this case are compelling.
ReplyDeleteSo Hendo gives a compliment to his teammate and we write a big spread about it!!? Wow!!
ReplyDeleteUsing whose stats as a basis. ?
ReplyDeleteWe have to be careful with stats. We cannot judge a player solely on stats. In a different team, under a different manager and playing style, players may shine and stats will change. And Moses is still young.
ReplyDeleteI think he is a good loan signing. Lukaku would also be good. I am surprised Jose loaned him out as Lukaku would be a better option than Torres.
Ultimately, with the team's strength and weaknesses, it is Brendan's job to get the best out of the team and most importantly get points on the board. So far, we have points even when we don't play well and Man Utd is the masters of this art.
For sure, he had a good half a season at Wigan and suddenly seemed to be the next greatest thing, but over the long term he hasn't really done that much. What those stats show me is that he's only had moments of good form, periods where he's really played well but then perhaps periods where he's faded and not produced much at all. So the stats themselves are illuminating but I don't think they tell the whole story. What we see in Moses is potential and ability and, at times, that potential and ability has shone through as actual goals and assists. That's undeniable, but perhaps his consistency over the long term is lacking. If the coaching staff has spent enough time looking at the player maybe they have a clear picture of why he's not yet turned all that talent into consistent end product. Obviously he has to improve but we don't have any insight into what those specific improvements might be or how the manager will try to make them happen.
ReplyDeleteI think we could have said the same thing about Sturridge and Coutinho. In fact I think we DID say the same things. They were players who had not yet shone through as real stars in their teams, but with Rodgers identifying their strengths and really wanting them in the team it has worked out very well. Their inconsistencies and flashes of potential have now become consistent good performances for the club. I think in a way that's what Rodgers is doing with all the players he signs, so to look back at Moses and not see those stats over a consistent period of time isn't so much of a worry. Clearly the coaching staff see what he's capable of and they believe he can do it consistently for the club, so what he's not managed to do in the past becomes something you quickly forget.
I think you are being a bit hard on 22 year old Moses by comparing him to a 29 year old Downing who has played over a decade in the premier league.
ReplyDeleteMoses outscored our wingers combined but I guess it is evened out when you include assists.
we also got Sturridge in January when he had scored one goal for Chelsea but our system enabled him to then get 16 goals in his next 20 games so there is hope our system can bring the best out of Moses who is still young enough to adapt to our system unlike Downing who had a certain way of playing entrenched into his play that he failed to adapt.
I rate Lukaku but would he have come to be back up given the undroppable Sturridge is brilliantly playing the centre forward role Lukaku thrives in.
I think Rodgers got a player to fit into his system rather than one who had to have the system tweaked to get him to fit in for the loan duration.
I am happy with Moses and hopefully we can push on and maybe be in a position to be able to attract even better talent from January onwards but for now I would certainly have Moses over Downing any day and we are paying him almost 30k a week less anyway.
A good loan period here and we may make play for a permanent move if it doesnt work we still have the hugely talented Ibe knocking on the door so it is win win for us.
Why was the comment deleted?????
ReplyDeleteNothing offensive there as far as I remember.
Anyway Jaimie I do appreciate the articles being put up I just thing that some of the comparisons were unfair as there were a few things that were not taken in to consideration such as age and appearances. He has signed and I'm sure we all hope he does a job for us. We didn't get Lukaku but not sure it was ever possible anyway. Cheers for the reply.
I quote you Jamie:
ReplyDelete"1224 mins on the pitch is 1224 mins on the pitch! ... he scored only 1 goal in 1224 minutes of Premier League football last season."
For the arguments on appearances, starting vs substitute - I believe there is a big difference between the minutes of the two. Imagine if you are 2-0 up and solidifying a lead. A substitute is likely to have been brought on to defend, through possession or other means. If you are in the other direction, then the sub is likely to be in a better goal scoring position. To be otherwise is to show a lack of tactical discipline, something which we don't want anyway. If you were looking at his minutes match by match, this would be a helpful thing to know. Just some food for thought, and how you could make the stat more useful/comparable.
Moses is no Pele. Is he going to score a lot of goals for us may be may be not . Is the LIverpool attack a little bit more dangerous because of him I think so very much. It is simply because of his direct nature of running at defenders taking them on one on one. Moses with his pace and his ability to hold up the ball well will create space for his teamates and that is why he is a lot better than Downing. His ability to use very tight spaces, his ability to use either his left or right foot , also the fact that he is comfortable on both wings or playing up front as a striker,and finally the fact that he has something to prove to Brendan Rodgers makes him a really positive addition to Brendan Rodgers's attack.
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