25 Mar 2012

Lawro tells Kenny: Dump Carroll and sign this £10m striker instead. Agree?

After failing to rectify the glaring striker problem in January, Liverpool fans will be hoping that the club goes all out to sign one or two proven, prolific goalscorers in the summer. With no Champions League football next season, Liverpool will need to focus on 'realistic' targets, and Anfield legend Mark has one possible solution in mind.

In his column for The Mirror this week, Lawro - who believes that Liverpool's catastrophic capitulation against QPR earlier this week was just a 'one off' - argued:

"With Steven Gerrard released to get forward, if they [Liverpool] can bring in a top goalscorer to play alongside (and ­occasionally instead of) Luis Suarez, they’ll have plenty of options, and look a different team.

"Whether they have the money to do that is a different story, but if not, then they might have to go to Newcastle and offer them Andy Carroll plus some cash for Demba Ba".


An Andy Carroll-Demba Ba swap deal? I would take that in a heartbeat, even with the Senegalese striker's reputed dodgy knee. I can't see it happening though, especially now that Ba's fellow countryman Papiss Cisse has joined him at Newcastle.

Carroll had only half a season of Premier League experience before Liverpool negligently splurged £35m on him, it could be argued that signing Ba would be making the same mistake again.

With only 35 Premier League starts to his name so far, Ba - who reportedly has a 10m release clause in his contract - is still a relatively unknown quantity in the top flight, but if it was a straight swap deal then the risk would be worth it, especially given the fact Ba has scored 23 goals in 35 stars, which is excellent.

The club would still be making a signficant loss on Carroll, but whether he's sold now or in 5 years, Liverpool are always going to make a loss, so it might as well be sooner rather than later.

Carroll for Demba Ba? What do you think?

Jaimie Kanwar


126 comments:

  1. It is just baffling as to the way he neglects to use a £35m striker and goes on to moan that the team is tired. Newcastle 2-0 goals up by the way. 8 points behind them now.

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  2. Just read with Carroll in the team we have a win % of 62%!
    Why keep dropping him? 

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  3. I know, we have a pretty good win/draw record with him in the side. The hoof-ball options he gives us has worked at times this season.

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  4. Theycallmemrburt4:41 pm, March 25, 2012

    Our 3million 'hit' on Robbie Keane just looked a whole lot sweeter...

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  5. I hope the big clubs don't pillage Newcastle, though of course I don't mind us getting a few of their players (Cabaye, Ba, Ben Arfa pretty please, we could do with them) ;). They got a solid team now, had a soft spot for them in the past (e.g. The Entertainers days) as well as nice to see a strong team outside the usual core group.

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  6. i think buying carrolll for 35 mil was a mistake and given his price,age and the obvious potential he displayed in the 1 pl season at newcastle i think it will be wise to give him a reality check that his performance is simply unacceptable at this level,( show him tapes of the likes of fernando llorrente and ibrahamovic imo)and give him more time on the training field to work on his fitness(speed,linkup play,shot placement and power) give him playing time in the cup games(limited pl games) next season to develop his skill and confidence and if he improves we can keep him or sell for a good price depending on the caliber of strikes we have at the time

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  7. Lawro hasn't got a clue, least of all when it comes to attacking football. If he had done a bit of research he would know that in the last 9 starts for big man Caroll we've won 6, drawn 2, and only lost 1

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  8. Might be a good idea.
    I feel that, with lucas returning next season, a Cm partnership of gerrard and lucas would be one of the best in the league. Bring in a right winger, perhaps marko marin who can add that extra spark in attack, and also another striker, maybe luuk de jong or demba as suggested, and wed be a really good side
                 Reina
    Johnson  Skrtel Agger Enrique
    Marin    Gerrard  Lucas  Downing
             De Jong   Suarez

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  9. We should sign the Newcastle chief scout

    Guess whose dad he is...the comedian Alan Carr

    What a world

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  10. He drops him because he's crap.

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  11. and  we need another good gk to challenge reina so he picks up his game 

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  12. He might be crap for £35m but hoof-ball has worked at times this season and has helped us to get points, because of him. 

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  13. Wow, Demba ba, is this the type of player we're looking for? Over the last three or four seasons, we've been slowly bringing in worse players, now were beginning to reap our rewards. Look at our team now, worst midfield ever, even stevie can't inspire that lot.

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  14. Collocini off, speedy Shane Long on. Crap defending occurs, West Brom pull one back, surprise, surprise(!)

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  15. should have bought players that could make immediate impacts. carroll will come good, but it takes time. he only had half a season of premier league football and then a big move to liverpool. we needed results this season to progress - and to expect carroll to deliver was unrealistic. hopefully this summer we buy better... 

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  16. cuz hes shit....... 

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  17. We have won more games when starts !

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  18. Charlie Adam, Enrique (not saying he has been rubbish) and Downing are in their mid/late 20s, they aren't going to get much better and they were bought for the now. Some players are meant to be mediocre, regardless of how much time you give them.

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  19. Crap?  We still won the two games he started since this losing run!

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  20. The likes of Enrique (done well for most of the season to date), Adam and Downing are in their mid-late 20s. They are at the age for realistic 'immediate impact'. If two of those are mediocre, at best, this season, than the chances are they will be next season too.

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  21. If KD wasn't so blinkered in his buy British policy, instead of splurging £35m on Carroll at the time he should have tried to sign Sergio Aguero. I'm sure Atletico Madrid would have happily accepted that amount if offered at the time. Or Cavani or Lavezzi for that matter.

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  22. Putting the price tag aside for a minute....i think Kenny has failed to bring out the best in Carroll, quite shocking how he's been treated at the Club IMO there is potential in this lad but it ain't going to come out by benching him and giving him bit parts in an unsettled and somewhat divided squad.....

    Now OBVIOUSLY we over paid.....who's fault that is im not sure tbh, whether it was Kenny or Comolli or both i don't know, what i do know is that it is pointless keeping him at the Club esp in the way that we are i.e. by not playing him regularly and giving him a proper run of games with players who he can develop an understanding with. His value is depreciating and Kenny is at fault for that....

    I do blame Kenny for Carrolls underperformance this season, the lad showed at Newcastle that with the right backing he is a very useful asset.....yet he has flopped in a big way for us, i guess the only consolation is that torres has also flopped at Chelsea....in much the same way....only difference is that he cost 50mil and not 35...

    Which just goes to show that there NO guarntees when buying a player....might have bundles of class....but if they don't perform...its not a lot of good to anyone...

    Not sure about Ba tbh, though i can certainly see the logic behind it, something has to change....

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  23. Carroll for 10m? Better bench him, as 4th or 5th choice striker, He offer another option to the attack

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  24. demba ba has got 2 good years left in him! carroll has 10 years! he hasn't been given a fair chance imo! when he plays well, he is on the bench the next game! he gets brought on for the last 10 minutes of a game! when he does start he plays up front on his own, which is not his game! I would love to see matias suarez add to our strike force

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  25. First talk of him being sold now to finance a move for Cavani.

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  26. Dump Caroll, Henderson , Adam and if there is no money to buy anyone than just bring some kids from yth set up. 100% they will do better. Nothing to lose.

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  27. With Aguero the wages would b a problem. He's probably at 200k pw. I'm guessing that's why he's gone to MC

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  28. hey ben arfa was playing very well just now. do you guys want him?
    yes? anohter 50 millions please. ;)

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  29. Get rid of him, can't understand why he continues to play him and leaves Kuyt on the bench, he's had long enough to fit into the team, I say bring back Peter Crouch!!

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  30. maybe but at least he earns his wages unlike the crap we signed

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  31. Why is caroll getting so much flak? 
    The team lacked heart when we went behind the second time againt Wigan. It wasnt his fault. 
    If anything, I'm getting more tired of seeing Enrique get so much time on the ball. He does 9 things right and then the most important 10th thing, he fluffs it or has a rush of blood to his head. 
    Same for Suarez. 
    Caroll is okay, but he needs game time. 
    There is no way we will recoup any of the cash that we spent on him, so why sell him. 
    With Caroll, we have to view his buy similar to that of Gomez's. 
    Gomez was atrocious for the first 18 months of his time at Bayern and for the national team. 
    Now he is a phenom. 
    If caroll can get his confidence and learn to play the simple lay-offs and hold the ball up to bring others in the team, he will be worth his weight in the years to come. 

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  32. What bothers me is that with Leo Messi scoring five against Leverkusen, some fans will make out he's better than Andy. I hope the defeat against Wigan doesn't damage Jordan Henderson's chances of winning the Player of the Season award. Finally, what are we going to do without Charlie's goals for the rest of the season? It won't be easy but an extra hat-trick or two from Downing might see us through.

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  33. Ten years of big Andy! Wow, we must be talking about a dozen goals.

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  34. Carroll probably will come good - provided he starts playing Sunday League football. Anything else is totally beyond him. No speed of thought or body, no anticipation, rubbish in the air, no right foot, no left foot, ball control pathetic..get the picture?

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  35. Spot on about Enrique, he is IMO part of the player clique at the Club, and as you rightly say, he does 9 things right BUT the tenth and most IMPORTANT thing he fluffs........just like Suarez and at times even our own beloved Dirk Kuyt......

    Very difficult for Carroll or ANY other the so called shit brits to develop any confidence in their game when other players.....are unsettling the team by not linking up, passing or crossing when they should...etc.

    Carroll Downing Henderson and even Adam are definitely better thab they have been alowed to show this season....we have problems in the squad whichg is IMO divided and ceratinly NOT all pulling in the same direction.......a bit like the fanbase.....

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  36. People need to come to grips that Gerrard is getting old... he is visibly much slower and that deterioration will only continue... which means it will be one less top weapon we will have next year... 

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  37. No boss we should be playing 4-2-3-1.. Muniain was excellent against MAN U!! Javi Martinez was excellent too.. If we could get these two players then that would be a big plus.. same GK, same back four, Lucas and Martinez; Muniain, Gerrard, Downing, Suarez.

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  38. Ha! I totally agree about Carroll our 35m signing! 
    Not to mention he has Maxi and Flanagan on bench... Loaned out Cole and Aquilani... Has youngsters like Sterling, Pacheco (Loan), Morgan and Suso who he could use also!

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  39. we should have tried to sign cisse before newcastle got him.
    looks a real bargain and his debut goal and last weeks finish shows he is a real finisher.ba is a good player but would worry about his knees.

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  40. carroll is perfect for liverpool these days.
    he wouldn't get in a top 4 side.

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  41. got to laugh, andy carroll is not the whole problem. we have no top draw wingers. send carroll back to newcastle and he will be a top player again, bring ba to liverpool and he wont be any better than carroll id gladly put money on it.
    forget about signing strikers we have carroll bellamy suarez and kuyt who are all capable of double figure goals a season.
    the problem is we need a top centre mid and 2 top draw wingers, its that simple and obvious.
    aguero van persie and rooney would not have done much better in this current liverpool team this season.
    also coates needs more game time over carra, the deffence has gone to pieces since the loss of agger.
    goals should be coming from not just the forwards

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  42. look at sterling yesterday,picked up the ball in his own part of the pitch,passes and moves and gets into the wigan box.sounds simple but we've so many players who don't do that.
    carroll is only part of the problem.for me henderson is a bigger issue-we had at the time of his signing-aquilani,cole,meireles,speraing,adam,shelvey,lucas,gerrard and coady had been involved in pre season.absolutely no need to sign him when we could have spent that cash on a striker or a decent winger.

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  43. I think Liverpool were afraid United would get him in the next few years so we beat them to it

    Agree that we ddn't seem to need someone in his position as much as a RW, but he will continue to develop

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  44. Of all the rubbish KD has bought, i still harbour hope that AC will come good. the stats mentioned by another contributor do count for something, and he has improved his efforts in recent weeks. while im as gutted as anyone that we ended up with our 4th choice that fateful day(gomes/benzema/llorente were bid for before we went in for carroll), i still think its worth giving carroll another couple of seasons to prove his worth. i have a feeling that, buying another forward or 2 to gee him up, while promoting someone from the youth set up, could be the catalyst for AC to step things up. even his neanderthal brain will realise that , even at his tender age, this could well be his last shot at the big time.
    lest we also not forget that while not proving anything, he can be a beast on his day. Ba , at this stage, only has half a good season behind him, as recently he has not been at the races. if we were going to swap AC for someone else, id say bent would be a safer bet, although id be underwhelmed at that!

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  45. People starting to flock here to have a good old moan

    Lawro obviously hasn't got a clue about Ba's buyout clause

    We should snap Ba up and keep Carroll

    We should give Carroll starts for the rest of the season, hope he gets a Euros call up

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  46. So basically we use a player who we paid £35M for who had had "ONE GOOD SEASON" and even more cash for another player who has had "ONE GOOD SEASON"

    Let me think for a second....................

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  47. ...leaving us with just one (if Suarez stays).

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  48. I think maybe Fergie pretended to be interested in Hendo so that KD wasted the full £16m (+ add ons) and then he and Steve Bruce went for a round of golf and a laugh at our expense!!

    To rub it in even more Bruce used the money to buy Fergie's unwanted players from Man U and Connor Wickham from under out noses!

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  49. Not surprised. If he is on the move, too good a opportunity to pass up to combine him and Suarez.

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  50. Jamie ' I've got a stat for everyone of my opinions' Kanwar.

    Except when the stats don't quite back up your opinion you omit them.

    I seem to remember recently a tiresome article you wrote about Kelly v Jonno .. And argued that because we had a higher percentage win when Kelly starts that he should be considered a starter before Jono.

    Why have you not applied the same statistical logic to caroll ?? Obviously it doesn't suit your argument/opinion. He has started 13 games this season. FACT is that we have won more games when he has started. 7 of our 11 wins, thats 63 % of our victories, came with Caroll in the starting line up.

    I use this just to illustrate just how flawed alot of your statistically backed opinions are because a blind man can see the the guy is struggling for form, but the stats tell us that liverpool are a better team when he starts. Thats assuming you accept the logic that the definition of 'better' is winnining as opposed to losing !!

    Kenny continues to give him 1 min here (Arsenal) 2 mins there (Chelsea)
    or 4 mins somewhere else (Wigan Away) including a whopping 9 mins
    against QPR. All these count as apperances and only further build the
    negative stats for stat bashers like yourself to bash him with.

    Im not going into whats already been said 1000 times already about the guy .. we're all disappointed he hasn't done better. But I don't see the point in taking a 20m hit on a guy after just over a season at the club. It wont happen nor should it.

    If as you suggest 'we're always going to make a loss' ( must get a loan of that crystal ball sometime by the way) I suggest it be later and see if we can, with a bit more support from all departments, get some value for money.

    If Kenny showed half the persistance with Caroll as he has with henderson, another expensive young signing( Henderson has at one stage started 11 games on the trot, Caroll never more than 3 !!) we might be having a different conversation !!

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  51. 10 years of Andy bloody Carroll....oh no :(

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  52. Gomez had a good couple of seasons in front of goal prior to moving to Bayern, so its not as if this current form has come out of nowhere. Whereas Carroll had six months of first tier football as a regular first XI player prior to joining us. Six months, that is it. Six months is nothing.

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  53. 'top player'? He had a mere six months as a regular first team XI player in PL for Newcastle and showed some good form, suddenly that is enough to be deemed a 'top player'? Oh come on. No better than what that Pog guy is for Fulham. Glorified Bobby Zamora without the aggression, that is what our Andy is. 

    Yes, we have cack wingers but Carroll is tame and shocking in terms of movement in and around the box. 

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  54. Ba only has half a good season behind him? and Carroll hasn't? Carroll, all he has had is half a season of being a first XI player in the PL prior to joining us and that was somehow mysteriously enough to splash out £35m, yet Demba Ba cost Newcastle nothing. So puh-leez don't belittle Demba Ba's contribution this season and what he showed at West Ham last season, especially when our Andy has barely proved anything himself.

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  55. As a England supporter, no thanks

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  56. spurs offered 25 mill for him, so harry dont know wat a top player is either then. considering his age he was a player wanted when he was at newcastle, did you think he was cack then?? didnt think so. actually you probably never heard of him till you looked on google lol
    have you actually been watching the full games not just match of the day and wat your little brother tells you??
    no striker would be banging them away in this current team, and this aint fantasy football, aguero et etc were never going to sign, get in the real world of football affairs.
    problems lye elsewhere

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  57. I thought he was alright but I didn't think he was technically that great. Not much difference between him and the similar Wickham (£8-10m), apart from 6 months as a first XI regular in PL. Taking all that into consideration and the fact he is British, I would never have gone over £15m. 

    Yep, lets all believe what Harry says anytime about transfers. The man is a 24/7 transfer gossip machine for Sky. 

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  58. Hilarious that line about searching on google, about my imaginary 'little brother' absolute comedy gold(!) Oh dear, oh dear, silly boy. Sounds like your getting wound up here and reacting by coming out with a load of crappy insults. Clever you(!)

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  59. I guess anything is possible, bit of a stretch

    Wickham hasn't done much

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  60. Its not AC's fault when he is not being coached correctly, he does not have the necessary support wingers or midfield that can place the ball on either his head or feet.
    Downing, Hendo (kit-model), Charley are just wishful thinking, cannot attack forwards, beat opponents and just makeup numbers, KD should not have sent Aquaman, Joe Cole out, worse off he wants to continuously sell us more dribble? AC will only come good when we make better signings to support both him and Suarez. YNWA

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  61. Not as if you're going to do anything in the Euros anyway

    Always a guaranteed nice earner on betfair

    England need to get back to unashamedly playing to a target man

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  62. Aye, he hasn't played much but he is only 18.  Looked decent in the few Ipswich games I watched, when he was there. Will be interesting to see how he pans out in the long run, especially in comparison to the older Carroll as they have a similar dynamic to their game

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  63. Good point

    Cherry picking different players for death by statistics is unfair

    Carroll needs to start more often, if we had real pace out wide combined with Suarez's tireless movement things would be very different

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  64. True, in relation to our performances in the upcoming Euros. 

    Target man would be handy but rather have Bobby Zamora as a 'target man, than the tame pussy cat Carroll (ask Rafael da Silva how tame)

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  65. What Enrique said in the summer:

    'The club is allowing all the major players of the team to go. Seriously, do you think it is the fault of the players? Andy (Carroll), nobby (Kevin Nolan) etc etc.
    'This club will never again fight to be among the top 6 again with this policy.'
    He was sold for £7m. Two of the several players they bought in were Cabaye (£5m) and Demba Ba (peanuts). Cruel how things work out eh, Jose.

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  66. well  said

    and why dont  we just buy ba and keep carol. or did thae main post  not think that was more logical?  tut tut

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  67. Dumt Carrol but Get some high class goal scorer that know where the net is, we need someone Else then BA.

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  68. Zamora did look very good against us

    His hold up play was fantastic

    Carroll needs help with his positioning, he one a few headers v QPR but didn't really look composed

    How much woud Niall Quinn cost in today's market? He was a real target man, improved every partner's sorting tally no end

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  69. Maybe players should concentrate on playing, leave worrying about who is being signed to the management

    And they are allowed to break sweat, not just count bank balance while fleecing their clubs

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  70. Get read of carroll, bring Cavani.. This will solve most of our problems..

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  71. Ameobi was a bit like Quinn, for Carroll at Newcastle. Ameobi did a lot of the donkey work in the promising Carroll-Ameobi partnership last season, in relation to aerial battles and trying to bully defences, which helped AC quite a lot in relation to doing the mundane stuff. Carroll needs to try and be more aggressive and bully, with as well as without the ball. In battling for the long ball or bullying defences, sometimes it just looks like he'd rather someone else do it, like Ameobi was doing for him. Instead of him always being the man the long ball goes to/having to bully, like here.  

    Crouch has a good composure for a big man and dealing with long balls as well as once in a while, jaw dropping technical finishing for a big man. Definitely someone I think that football has never really seen the best of out of, in relation to his ability on a consistent basis. Bit misunderstood, is Crouchie, me thinks.

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  72. Here's why we've been buying British players;
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jun/10/phil-jones-fifa-rules-price 

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  73. Stefan ├×orgrimsson11:21 pm, March 25, 2012

    I say we wait for Kenny to leave upstairs this summer.  Maybe another manager can bring the best from our misfits: Downing, Henderson and Carroll.   Carroll and Henderson are still young and can deliver if they get the right kind of motivation and support from the fans. If we would sell Andy for cutprice  and later he would start to perform under another manager...

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  74. you know you can't wait :) but on a serious note he does need to put more of an effort in when he is playing and he needs to get in to the box a lot more. I have faith in the big lad and if we utilise him properly then he will be a very good player for us. the problem is that even tho we have played a better attacking style of football we don't keep enough attacking pressure on teams (most chances we have created this season are from counter attacks). when we don't have the ball we fall into a rafa defensive system, yes you have to attack and defend as a team but you don't see any of the top 6 teams having 11 men behind the ball. the point I am making for carroll is that we have him back for every free kick, every corner and every throw in, in our half. it makes sense in a way because of his height and his ability in the air but if we seriously payed £30 million for him to do just that then what a waste of money and most of all what a waste of talent. I agree with all his haters than the potenial £35 million spent on him is ludicrous but like kk said, you pay what you have to, to get the player you want. the other point I was making for carroll is that the team should play much higher up the pitch, keep the pressure on the opposition defense by having carroll and saurez constantily upfront with support from the midfield especially the wingers. that way he will get more than 2 or 3 chances a game because he will be in the box were he should and were we want him to be. in this current system he will only get a dozen goals in 10 years :)

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  75. carroll is always on the bench especially if he has just had a decent game!

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  76. yeah sorry mr chan i just dont like smarmy c#nts no offense meant at all

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  77. believe wat you like, was well known harry put in a 25 mill bid. who cares anyway. if your still supporting liverpool next season he may prove you wrong. as stated by moi if we get decent wingers and a top centre mid

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  78. Sack the manager, sack the players . . . Have you heard yourselves? You would think Kenny was into the 6th year of a 5 year plan, it is only Kenny's first full season, can everyone just remember that. Everyone needs to take a chill pill and support the team and the club during it's rebuilding phase, after all it was only 18 months ago LFC was near bankruptcy and being run into the ground by cowboys and an idiot called Christian Purslow. Yes this seasons league form has been inconsistent and yes a few of the signings have so far failed to deliver, but sack the manager, sack the players, really?

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  79. Your points about Carroll and stats are utter nonsense, as evidenced by this article:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2011/09/andy-carroll-is-it-really-that-bad-i.html

    I already *defended* Carroll using stats, but since then, he's shown that he's just not good enough. He will never be a great player for Liverpool; you can either choose to accept it now, or keep deluding yourself until you have no choice but to accept it at some point in the future.

    If you observe players close enough, and have the ability to be objective, you can always tell who will make it, and who will fail. Very soon after they signed (or sometimes before) I argued that all of the following players would not make it:

    Morientes
    Ziege
    Pennant
    Diouf
    Diao
    Kewell
    Voronin
    Pellegrino
    Nunez
    Johnson
    Keane
    Aquilani
    Jovanovic

    etc

    Almost every time, I was blasted by other fans for not 'having faith' and blah blah blah, but did any of them become successes at LFC? No.

    I'm rarely wrong about player potential, and it has nothing to do with having some kind of special gift; it's simply a matter of objective observation (which includes analysing stats).

    Andy Carroll will not make it at LFC, and neither will Downing, and three years from now, you can look back on this post and see that I was right.

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  80. I don't mind what you said as comments like that says more about the person that says it, than it does about the person it is aimed at, I'm afraid in a derogatory manner. Anyhoo, I'll say no more on the matter as its not my cup of tea at all.

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  81. Lot of things are well known, doesn't make it true though. 

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  82. Nowt wrong with buying British....if they are good enough and are not at a extortionate price.

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  83. In some cases, stats don't portray the real picture, this is one of them. If a striker neither scores goals nor makes assists then him taking his weekly stroll doing fcuk all whilst someone else realised where the net was, don't mean a thing. However, is there a trophy awarded to the player who has best befriended the grass this season? If so, our man Carroll surely has it in the bag! On a serious note, stats are what got mediocre players into the club. What ever happened to passion and raw skill?

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  84. all i can say is that he is a cart horse

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  85. we are shite anyway, lfc need top class stikers who can perform with saurez, then we will go to the top, who proteced owen when he made his debut, he was a sensation, and dalgleish says he wants to protect sterling, my god the lad was a breath of fresh air when he came on, he has so much talent but the manager for some reason can't see it. say no more , a very upset fan.

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  86. They don't need to be good necessarily, for the rest of this season I'd settle for any old human with the ability to move directly in line with the lovely round football coming at them, about 3-4 times perhaps. The rest of the time, they can have a snooze.

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  87. Nice speech Jamie but lets get a few things straight here..

    First off my stats are not utter nonsense.. Thae stats I presented are entirely accurate. Not only did I research myself, your not the only one that can count ya know, but they can also be corroborated at

    http://www.empireofthekop.com/anfield/2012/03/25/why-does-andy-carroll-keep-getting-dropped/

    The stats you linked me to are 8 MONTHS OLD !! now thats utter nonsense.

    Now once you establish my stats to be correct, apologise for calling them utter nonsense and being wrong(one of those times you've been 'rarely wrong' I'm sure Jamie) perhaps you might like to address my post properly.

    And that is in relation to your Kelly v Jonno post and your use of stats to minipulate your opinion about a player. Which is often said you do.. but when anybody says that stats can be minipulated in such a way you absolutely refute the other persons opinion and keep going on about indisputable facts and stats to win the argument.

    Now that I have taken your 'win ratio stat' and applied it equally to Caroll to demonstrate that stats can be misleading and minipulated, I'm calling you out to accept this fact !!

    And furthermore stats aside, not only does it make no sense to take a 20m hit on a player only 14 months into his 5 year contract .. I believe it would be Kennys death knell.

    I can't imagine FSG, who openly admitted knowing very little about football when buying, handing more money to a man who just blew the club record fee on a young fella he rarely starts and flogs on at a 20m loss the following season can you ??







      

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  88. and my reply is awaiting approval because.. why exactly ?

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  89. Dump KD.Hendo.Adam..KD is brainless..Hendo the most garbage LFC player in History..Adam no vision & brain..
    Exposed more youth player like sterling.suso.morgan.bring back pacheco..
    New signings-Demba Ba.Munian.Javi Martinez.eden hazard.

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  90. You've misunderstood: I was referring to your points about me not using stats to praise Carroll, not to the veracity of your stats; I think that's obvious from the thread of the argument in my post.

    * Just because you think the stats for Johnson-Kelly were manipulated doesn't make it so. The stats I presented were irrefutable facts; what you should be doing is showing how those stats are wrong, and producing a counter-argument to show how Johnson has improved the team. if you can't do that then your protestations are pointless.

    * I didn't refute your stats about Carroll; as I noted at the start of this post, you misunderstood. Those stats may well be right, but what's the difference? Carroll did practically nothing in the game you mentioned to contribute to the wins; Liverpool won in spite of him, not because of him.

    * How many goals and assists has Carroll achieved in the games you highlight?

    * With my Johnson-Kelly analysis, I used every game each player had featured in this season, not just a small sub-section like you have.

    * The Johnson-Kelly comparison was far more detailed, and used lots of different stats, not just one stat like you've used.

    * The reason you have a problem with the Johnson-Kelly analysis is that you disagree with the conclusion, which means you're clearly incapable of looking at the facts objectively. If the stats supported your opinion, you would probably accept it, and you wouldn't be complaining about 'manipulated' stats.

    * I can accept the Carroll stats, but if you drill down into greater detail (like I did with Johnson-Kelly) then you will see that there's more to it than that. You need to look at Carroll's goals, assists, shooting accuracy, conversion rate, crossing accuracy etc to get the full picture, not just how many games the team has won and lost.

    Whether Liverpool take a hit now or later on Carroll, they *will* take a hit at some stage. 20m? You're having a laugh; there is no way anyone is going to pay 20m for Carroll; we'd be lucky to get 10m. Carroll will end up at a team like Aston Villa, Sunderland, Stoke or Newcastle again, and that is where he belongs. He will never do it for Liverpool; he shouldn't even be at Liverpool because he is the antithesis of a typical LFC player. He doesn't suit the club's playing style, and spending 35m on him was possibly transfer market negligence of the highest order.

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  91. All posts with links are held before going live (for spam purposes)

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  92. Demba Ba wouldn't come here even if we asked and Newcastle wouldn't take back that big lug now that they've adopted a much more continental approach.

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  93. pls no... no more players from Newcastle... just promote our young players... enough money spend on trash...

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  94. I'm surprised JK, not least of all because of the number of times you've banged on relentlessly about signing players with injuries. If Demba Ba has any question over his fitness then he'd only ever be a short-term solution and I don't think it's worth it. There are better places to spend our money. 
    For what it's worth I just don't see the point in selling Carroll. It's not about money any more. We all know he's not a 35 million pound player, he never was. He might have potential to be close to that, but he's not showing it. Instead, what we have is a decent player, a young English prospect who has obvious qualities and will need to prove his worth to make the run-on side. The money is spent, finished. No point looking back or asking how we might recoup some of it. It's academic, meaningless. The only question you need to ask is : do we think Andy Carroll is good enough to be a Liverpool player?

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  95. For me is,firstly is SACK KK and bring back RAFA.KK is fucking guy brought a BRITISH DONKEY PLAYER.there is useless player for the club.LFC cannot qualified for CL next season if KK in charge for LFC.
    TRUST ME.

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  96. Well said Red could not have said it better stats mean shit. Raw skill and passion the only way to go.

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  97. Newcastle is NOW a big club itself! I forcasted this last August after their buys.

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  98. Agree! 

    So frustrating to see what we can see as fans, Liverpool's staff with their whole career in the game can't see in a player! It makes me believe that majority of so called professionals are just morons with a bit of luck. (It includes bankers of this country).

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  99. Crouch, Zamora, Drogba, Dempsey, D. Cisse, K. Davies are all large strikers that only really came good during or after their mid-20s. Might need a similar level of patience with Carroll.

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  100. Lets get a few things straight...

    Andy Carroll has tons of potential, yes like every other footballer he has strengths and weaknesses but are we really trying to get the best out of AC ?

    I wouldn't dump him just yet, what we need is time... bring in a more experienced proven finisher that compliments Luis... What we need is a young Torres !!!! (Dreaming)

    Not making excuses for AC but Downing and Henderson were brought in to service the big guy, both with assists and stretching of defenses...unfortunately neither has done that this season.

    Jose too was supposed to be an attacking option but he in completely brain dead in the final third.

    Adam's set plays have been awful !!!! his long diagonal passing has been dreadful

    Right now the most affordable options have to be Huntelaar,Ba and Loic Remy... 

    In short blaming Andy for this season is unfair, he has shown more effort and desire in the last few months than most of our new signings.

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  101. Carrrol should just be sold likewise Hendersen and Downing.Carroll for Crouch.The problem here is that lets just look at the points difference between Liverpool and the 4th spot club.The difference is too big for King Kenny to think that keeping these trio we might fight for the to spot next season.
    Carroll,Hendersen and Downing should feature in all the remaining matches since we have no hope again.This is to lure some potential players in the summer.
    Matias Suarez should be bought by all means.I have watch him play some matches.

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  102. CORRECCTION
    .....lure some potential buyers......

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  103. If Liverpool are to challenge for titles then neither Ba nor Carroll are world class i would have neither but they may as well keep Carroll as he is young and can still make a mark.

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  104. You may have a point in their development as they did take a while (but even than, no one was expecting much of them) but they weren't hyped up to be the next messiah or bought for £35m on Carroll. Much much more was/is expected of Andy Carroll than the likes of Davies, Zamora, etc, as illustrated by the fee. To be honest, I don't think he will get anywhere near it as that £35m 'much much more' was based on a mere half a season as a first XI regular in PL at Newcastle. So even if he turns out to be as good as Zamora or Crouch, that is way way way below the £35m level of ability one expects for £35m. 

    Dempsey ain't no target man, even if he is a 6 footer. 

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  105. Where does this perception of 'tons of potential' come from, in relation to Carroll? From the very small period of half a season at Newcastle as a first XI regular in PL, prior to joining us? Yikes.

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  106. Where would the perception of tonnes of potential usually come from?

    He did really well for first 6 months in PL, therefore the perception that he might do even better as he matured, received better coaching, played with better players

    Imagine Carroll at Spurs? In fact it wouldn't surprise me if Harry replaced Mr. 225k per week, Adebayor, with Carroll if he remains at Spurs

    Carroll would have real service from proper pacy wingers, we would look like plonkers. We have Sterling blooded now, let's use him!!!!

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  107. Anyone is better than that ballless pansy Drowning!!!!!!!!!

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  108. Far too short a time, 6 months, to deem a player to have 'tons of potential'/be 'special'.  The old saying of 'playing with better players, etc' simply doesn't cut it or justify someone bleating on about 'tons of potential' based on 6 months of regular first tier football, for me. You can't polish a turd. Fair enough, he showed some potential and realistic to perceive that he would improve at a better club but tons of potential, psssh. 

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  109. the thing is with Carroll, we don't play to his strengths, we don't get the ball wide and deliver it at pace, in the air - Downing ALWAYS comes inside. Deliver the ball properly to Carroll and he'll score but at the moment we play round him, on the floor which is never gonna be his strong point. I kind of agree with Lawro, if we're not going to try and play his way the there is no sense in keeping him. But I don't blame Carroll at all.

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  110. And Cisse, large? And he was a far better player than Carroll at Carroll's age. In fact, he was with us, wasn't he? Winning the Champions League!

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  111. I agree, the manager and the coaching staff appear to be the problem and we should judge the players when we can be sure that we have someone who knows what he is doing. Ultimately, if people want to blame the players, then the management have to take responsibility in any case.

    Service for Caroll has been atrocious all season, his performances appear to have improved, unlike Henderson, and yet he doesn't get the same number of games, we ought to be playing him every game between now and the end of the season, in the league. If Kenny wants to save himself, he should be looking to win a cup and to have looked as if he has worked out a tactical approach in time for next season, at the moment, the team looks clueless and that is more worrying than the actual position in the table.

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  112. Rebuilding phase, at no stage should a rebuilding phase for Liverpool lead to the team being on terms with Swansea in the table. That suggests that the rebuilding has gone off schedule. You appear to be another of these people who believes that, while we rebuild, no one else is trying to improve either. Once Swansea and Norwich start getting decent premiership money for a second season, they will attempt to strengthen again or, if you like, begin stage 2 of their own rebuilding stages. Seeing as theirs appears to be on schedule, unlike ours, why do you assume that, at the current rate, they will not overtake us if nothing changes? Do you see some scientific formula that no one else can see which tells you how our players will improve next season?

    One thing we can see from this year, Kenny either does not know a good player when he sees one or he does not know how to coach a good young player. How is that going to change next season? Do you really want Brendan Rodgers, Paul Lambert, Alan Pardew, Martin O'Neill and Tony Pulis to all get another 15 - 20 million to invest in players to improve their squads? While Kenny wastes another 30 million? At what point do you say the club starts to get concerned? After 5 years? We'll be in the bottom half by then. 

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  113. Well, if we cannot agree on who is good and who isn't, no wonder the team is in so much trouble.

    One thing we know for sure, though, is that Kenny does not appear to rate Carroll much, otherwise his record signing would not be on the bench when the team is losing so many games.

    If we assume that we will finish 7th this season, might be a bit optimistic, there are 4 teams who will spend in the summer in an attempt to drag us further into a mid table position. Sunderland, Swansea, Norwich, Stoke. Other teams may not spend so much but will be looking for bargains to make them more competitive, Everton, Fulham, WBA, Villa. The way this club is playing, and with the poor singings that the manager has made last summer, I can see 3 or 4 of those clubs overtaking us next season if we don't change something or work out how to fix what is going wrong. Definitely can see Sunderland, Stoke and Everton pushing us for our 7th spot. If Villa were to lose McCleish I could see them being much closer to us as well. All the people talking about rebuilding could actually be advocating the dismantling of the club as a European challenger in the Premier League.

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  114. So do you blame Kenny?

    I don't blame Carroll, entirely, either. But he could have been better, but i do think he has improved.

    But i see comments on here saying that Kenny is not to blame and Carroll is not so bad, and those two statements are not compatible, because if Carroll is not so bad, in our situation, he should be playing. And if he is not getting a game, only one person can take responsibility for that. From what i can see, Kenny has apparently accepted that he wasted 35 million of the team's money by not playing the guy much lately.

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  115. So, is this Kenny's fault?

    Either Kenny has bought extremely poorly and is now admitting it or he is, wrongly, not playing an expensive striker with tons of potential when the team needs goals. Which is it? Poor transfer or poor team selection?

    Adebayors wages might seem worth it when Tottenham make Champions League, don't you think? Particularly as they are not paying half of them. And you can be sure that Harry will not be offering over 20 million, that's for sure.

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  116. Actually, he looked pretty good at West Ham as well and did well in Germany. He has more good seasons than bad ones, that's for sure. Plus, if he doesn't cost 35 million it is not such a risk.

    But, then, Newcastle are starting to look like they have a better team than us and with a decent right midfielder and a good centre back to play alongside Coloccini, although Taylor is ok when fit, then you have to start to wonder why any player would leave Newcastle to join us? Krul, Simpson, Taylor, Coloccini, Santon, Ben Arfa, if they could get him permanently, Cabaye, Tiote, Gutierrez, Cisse, Ba. Arguably a better team than ours. Doesn't take long, does it? If they buy better than us again this summer, they will be above us again next season.

    Saying that, I wouldn't buy Ba either. There have to be other strikers out there worth taking a chance on. Our scouting is poor, though. I'd be tempted to take a punt on Rhodes from Huddersfield at the right price. Teams like Blackpool and Swansea have shown that lower league players can perform at the top level and Rhodes has a ridiculous scoring record, he's young and, if we are as good at creating chances as we think, there's no reason why he couldn't score for us. He'd, no doubt, be hungrier than a lot of our players.

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  117. Davis was a £7.5 million flop when Blackburn signed him in 98 transfer record for Blackburn at the time.
    It hardly gets mentioned now.
    I know it is no where near £35 million! Players struggle with these fees and the expectations!  

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  118. We make think he his rubbish but the opposition have to make tactical changes to mark him which could be why we have won games with him in the team?

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  119. so delueded!!!! and you call toon fans mad??? lads get a grasp on reality will ya's, demba for carroll are you all sick in the head, 8 points clears and we didnt have to spend 100's of millions to justify winning the carling cup fair play lads! i mean to actually think ur lot will pull in the likes of lavezzi and cavani and co. absolute crazy talk! u will have to sell before you buy! 

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  120. Aye, Davies and Beattie have both failed to fulfil the hype about them in the early days . Davies is doing alright now but that is at a lower PL-level, which is totally different to cutting it at top 4/6 level and Davies is way off that. Much to be worried about, in relation to Carroll.

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  121. At times Carroll can be Cpt. Inconsistent but he's a young lad. Don't think he's to wear the number 9 shirt for Liverpool but to drop him would be daft. Rather selling him, offering him a loan offer to a team or league which suites his style of play. Same goes for Henderson. As for additions to the club, it seems more likely that it will be Matias Suarez who'll be joing the club. Just hope we can land some top notch players in the summer. YNWA!!

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  122. Newcastle have had their laugh at our expense with the ridiculous price we paid for Carroll. Lets not give them another laugh. We dont need Ba, we have Sterling!

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  123. Chi Bai lu, one should not be bitten by the same snake  that comes out fron the same hole, twice. In short do not repaet the same mistake.

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  124. Any striker in BPL for Carroll. Slow, clumsy, unable to read and anticipate crosses  , poor in heading for a tall guy the slowest striker in the league...how he is worth 35million pound...well done Newcastle..very good deal.

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