Have Liverpool really progressed that much since last season? It sounds like a stupid question but it's one that needs to be considered. When it comes to level of performance, there's no question that things are better, but good performances alone don't win league points, and if we look at the first 14 league games of last season vs. this season, the comparison is not very encouraging.
Since returning to Liverpool, Kenny Dalglish has splashed out £118m on seven players, but in terms of league progress, the return on that investment has, so far, been negligible.
The following will not make pleasant reading for Liverpool fans but the mission of this site has always been to take a critical view of all things LFC, so hold on to your hats!
Let's look at the facts:
Only 4 Extra league points Gained
After 14 league games this season, Liverpool are only 4 points better off under Kenny Dalglish than at the same point last season under Roy Hodgson.
Whatever way you slice it, £118m to achieve 4 extra league points and 7th in the league is not the best value for money, and each extra point has basically cost Liverpool £29.5m.
No Increase in League Goals Scored
Despite spending spending £103m on Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Luis Suarez, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson (all ostensibly attacking players), Liverpool have scored the same number of league goals this season (16) as Roy Hodgson's team had at the same point last season.
The idea behind spending tens of millions on attacking players is, surely, to increase the number of goals scored? I think we're entitled to expect £103m worth of attacking talent to score more goals, especially in light of the fact Hodgson spent only £23m (approx), and still managed to score the same number of league goals.
As an interesting side-note, Charlie Adam has scored/created more goals than Downing, Henderson and Carroll combined, despite costing only 10% of their combined transfer fee. Food for thought.
Fewer Home League Goals Scored
Liverpool have scored fewer home league goals this season (9) than they did at the same point last season (12). Again, despite the financial outlay on attacking players, Liverpool appear to have regressed in the goal-scoring department.
Fewer Homes League Wins
* The same applies to league home wins; after 14 games last season, Liverpool had four home league wins; this season, the team only has two.
Low Points-Per-Game Average
The current points-per-game average is 1.6, and if that continues, Liverpool will end the season on 60 points, which has only ever been enough for 4th place once in the last 15 years.
Additionally, Liverpool finished ten points off 4th place last season, and the club has only managed to claw back 4 points so far this season.
On the Positive Side...
Away form is significantly better; performances have improved exponentially, and there is a much better atmosphere around the club. However, the overall improvement in the league is still just 4 points, which (IMO) is not good enough to justify such a huge financial outlay.
I won't be the only one crunching these numbers. As we all know, FSG take a very statistical approach to football, and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be looking at things in a similar way, especially after John Henry made it clear that failure to qualify for the Champions League would be a 'major disappointment'.
We can go on and on about missed chances, refereeing decisions and bad luck, but none of it really matters. At the end of the season, all that matters is points on the board; you don't get a Champions League place for creating the most chances.
Don't get me wrong: I still have 120% faith in Kenny, and I'm sure he'll get it right, but I humbly submit that he needs to start making the correct decisions sooner rather than later.
Things That (Arguably) Need to Change
- Play Maxi, Bellamy and Suarez together as often as possible. At this moment, they are Liverpool's most potent attacking threat. If that changes, and Andy Carroll starts scoring, then play him, but for now, those three have to start every game (IMO)
- Always include in the team those players who are most likely to score goals.
- Stop dropping players after they score. This season, it's happened three times to Maxi; twice to Carroll, and twice to Bellamy.
- Replace Glen Johnson with Martin Kelly at right back. Johnson is a defensive liability; play him at right wing, or not at all.
- Sign a proven 'fox in the box' goalscorer in January (or promoting someone like Adam Morgan from the reserves).
- Sign a proven right-sided creative midfielder in January.
- Play Jordan Henderson in the middle or not at all.
- Come up with a specific training plan for Luis Suarez to work on his finishing. Perhaps this is already in place, but if not, it needs to be.
- Send Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing to the reserves to work on their games. Jay Spearing was relegated to the reserves recently, and scored two goals. Why not Carroll and Downing?
- Stop persisting with failing players just because of their price tags.
- Genuinely employ the merit system: if someone plays well, keep them in the team.
Again, to reiterate: I am totally behind Dalglish - he is the right man for the job, and I'm sure he will find the right balance. However, football is about opinions, and rightly or wrongly, these are mine.
Please stick to the comment policy. If you can't handle realism, then there are plenty of other LFC sites to visit.
Jaimie Kanwar
Since returning to Liverpool, Kenny Dalglish has splashed out £118m on seven players, but in terms of league progress, the return on that investment has, so far, been negligible.
The following will not make pleasant reading for Liverpool fans but the mission of this site has always been to take a critical view of all things LFC, so hold on to your hats!
Let's look at the facts:
Only 4 Extra league points Gained
After 14 league games this season, Liverpool are only 4 points better off under Kenny Dalglish than at the same point last season under Roy Hodgson.
Whatever way you slice it, £118m to achieve 4 extra league points and 7th in the league is not the best value for money, and each extra point has basically cost Liverpool £29.5m.
No Increase in League Goals Scored
Despite spending spending £103m on Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Luis Suarez, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson (all ostensibly attacking players), Liverpool have scored the same number of league goals this season (16) as Roy Hodgson's team had at the same point last season.
The idea behind spending tens of millions on attacking players is, surely, to increase the number of goals scored? I think we're entitled to expect £103m worth of attacking talent to score more goals, especially in light of the fact Hodgson spent only £23m (approx), and still managed to score the same number of league goals.
As an interesting side-note, Charlie Adam has scored/created more goals than Downing, Henderson and Carroll combined, despite costing only 10% of their combined transfer fee. Food for thought.
Fewer Home League Goals Scored
Liverpool have scored fewer home league goals this season (9) than they did at the same point last season (12). Again, despite the financial outlay on attacking players, Liverpool appear to have regressed in the goal-scoring department.
Fewer Homes League Wins
* The same applies to league home wins; after 14 games last season, Liverpool had four home league wins; this season, the team only has two.
Low Points-Per-Game Average
The current points-per-game average is 1.6, and if that continues, Liverpool will end the season on 60 points, which has only ever been enough for 4th place once in the last 15 years.
Additionally, Liverpool finished ten points off 4th place last season, and the club has only managed to claw back 4 points so far this season.
On the Positive Side...
Away form is significantly better; performances have improved exponentially, and there is a much better atmosphere around the club. However, the overall improvement in the league is still just 4 points, which (IMO) is not good enough to justify such a huge financial outlay.
I won't be the only one crunching these numbers. As we all know, FSG take a very statistical approach to football, and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be looking at things in a similar way, especially after John Henry made it clear that failure to qualify for the Champions League would be a 'major disappointment'.
We can go on and on about missed chances, refereeing decisions and bad luck, but none of it really matters. At the end of the season, all that matters is points on the board; you don't get a Champions League place for creating the most chances.
Don't get me wrong: I still have 120% faith in Kenny, and I'm sure he'll get it right, but I humbly submit that he needs to start making the correct decisions sooner rather than later.
Things That (Arguably) Need to Change
- Play Maxi, Bellamy and Suarez together as often as possible. At this moment, they are Liverpool's most potent attacking threat. If that changes, and Andy Carroll starts scoring, then play him, but for now, those three have to start every game (IMO)
- Always include in the team those players who are most likely to score goals.
- Stop dropping players after they score. This season, it's happened three times to Maxi; twice to Carroll, and twice to Bellamy.
- Replace Glen Johnson with Martin Kelly at right back. Johnson is a defensive liability; play him at right wing, or not at all.
- Sign a proven 'fox in the box' goalscorer in January (or promoting someone like Adam Morgan from the reserves).
- Sign a proven right-sided creative midfielder in January.
- Play Jordan Henderson in the middle or not at all.
- Come up with a specific training plan for Luis Suarez to work on his finishing. Perhaps this is already in place, but if not, it needs to be.
- Send Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing to the reserves to work on their games. Jay Spearing was relegated to the reserves recently, and scored two goals. Why not Carroll and Downing?
- Stop persisting with failing players just because of their price tags.
- Genuinely employ the merit system: if someone plays well, keep them in the team.
Again, to reiterate: I am totally behind Dalglish - he is the right man for the job, and I'm sure he will find the right balance. However, football is about opinions, and rightly or wrongly, these are mine.
Please stick to the comment policy. If you can't handle realism, then there are plenty of other LFC sites to visit.
Jaimie Kanwar
Talk about a short memory. I can't believe you have forgotten how Liverpool looked under Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteApart from one complete cock-up against Spurs where we got our tactics all wrong (picking Skertel as a right-back didn't help) there hasn't been anything close to the horror that Hodgson's hoof and run style brought to LFC.We are getting there. Our points total doesn't reflect how well we have played for most of the season.With better finishing, poorer opposition goal-keeping and less interference from the goalposts we'd be at least 6 points to the better. Let me De Gea, Hart, Vorm and Ruddy were all man-of-the-match for their teams at Anfield. And for the first time since 2008/2009 our defence looks like a rock. You don't have to be Alan Hansen to know that winning teams start with a very strong defensive unit.Moreover, I love the positive, collective mentality that Kenny is trying to instill. Even under Rafa we didn't always look this up-for-it away from home. In almost every game home and away we end as the stronger team. With 11 men Monday would have been no different,Give Kenny and Steve more time. And please no more comparisons with the darkest period in Liverpool's recent history.
With respect, you're not seeing my point. None of that matters. If Liverpool don't finish in the top 4, do you really think that John Henry et al will be pacified by tales of how many chances we missed, or how great we were in so many games.
ReplyDeleteI've outlined the situation as it is: A points average of only 1.6 so far; fewer home goals/wins compared to last season; only 4 points better off.
These are the stats that matter.
You're taking a very narrow, short-term view, and it seems like you're unwilling to accept the way things really are.
Again: playing well and missed chances mean nothing. All that matters is points on the board, and Liverpool are not getting enough at the moment to finish 4th.
My, my, this is appalling. However we will see from here.
ReplyDeleteFootball Just Not About Scoreboard . This Article is Unbelievable ! You Compare Hodgson and Dalglish ?
ReplyDeleteYes, that's what I've done. Perhaps you should learn to comprehend what you read before posting a comment?
ReplyDeleteback on the jungle drums again JK. you are a fickle liverpool fan these days, instead of watching the games and seeing that we are playing quality football and have just been unlucky, you are going to shove statistics in our face.
ReplyDeleteThis is the last time i read these articles. Your blog is crap
ReplyDeleteWe have improved a lot since Hodgson's appalling brand of football, much moreso than the points alone can explain. Unfortunately the improvement has barely been what would've been expected from any enterprising manager just releasing the shackles and better utilising the squad that we already had (as Dalglish did last season).
ReplyDeleteThe money that has been spent should've seen us elevated back into contention, along with considerably improving the style of play. I know that everybody loves to bleat on about the time needed at Manchester City, but the simple fact is that they were relegation battling club that had to a severe long term competitive disadvantage, whereas we were a club just outside of title contention that had been mismanaged for a short period.
My only hope is to remember that Rijkaard started slowly before revitalising a sleeping giant in Barcelona. Hopefully Dalglish does actually know what he's doing, and completes a similar turnaround for us...
I can say without any hyperbole that I am utterly devastated by that. Please don't go! *cries*
ReplyDeleteI'd have to agree with Scotty. I'm already looking forward to QPR with the expectation of a win. Under Kenny we have been extremely unlucky at home and away (except for the Spurs debacle). Why not look at the stats for shots on/off target, and saves made by the opposition (and the woodwork), then see how the figures look.
ReplyDeleteAnother person who just doesn't get it. Continue to stick your head in the sand if you like; or, you could actually read the article PROPERLY, and see that I am 100% behind Dalglish.
ReplyDeleteThe proof that you don't get it is referring to Liverpool playing quality football - why can't you understand that it doesn't matter?! If we finish 6th this season, what possible difference will it make if we played good football throughout the season? We'll still be out of the Champions league.
I'm not fickle at all; it's fans like you who think all that matters is playing well that are fickle.
I agree with you on team selection. I think that is where a lot of our current faults lie and the reason for so many dropped points. I would definately start Bellamy, Maxi and Suarez together as no one else really looks like scoring. I'd bring in Kelly instead of Johnson a better defender in my opinion and gets forward well too.
ReplyDeleteI'm fed up too with players being selected because of their price tag - Caroll, Downing and Henderson (shouldn't play unless it's in the centre) rather than on merit.
We need a decent right winger but I'd settle for Kuyt for the time being certainly not Henderson. A goal scorer up front is sorely lacking I'm not convinced Caroll will achieve that this season until he can adapt his game (in the reserves).
No one is disputing that Liverpool play good football! The point here is that despite that, the club is not on track for 4th place. That is what matters.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this article number 4? 5? 6? about playing Maxi and dropping Carroll, just spun with other 'information'.
ReplyDeleteJohnson a liability at right back? Did you think this about Gary Neville as well? As you seem think he is better than Neville was when being interviewed on the 'Republic of Mancunia'.
ReplyDeleteYou've failed to include the money collected from sales and the impact that flowing football and a 'feel good factor' brings to a club. Obviously a 'feel good factor' is more difficult to measure but it certainly shows the club is heading in a better direction (which the investors/owners) will give credence to. Adding to that many of the players purchased are young. Youth and potential equate to future value.
ReplyDeleteThe owners also realise that they have purchased a slightly flagging club albeit with huge potential revenue streams and a large international fan base for 300 million.They were wise enough to know that a quick injection of cash was needed to buy some average English players at inflated prices to get back this 'feel good factor' knowing that some of the purchases would be a gamble (although slightly reduced considering their age and nationality). The English core is not only becoming part of the rules but also helps to ground the club and to nuture it's identy (which arguably furthers passion) and reduces the time for the players to bed in.
Have Liverpool really progressed this season? YES hugely.
Kuyt hasn't looked any better than Downing, Henderson or Carroll - and that includes his supposed excellent defensive contributions.
ReplyDeleteAnd at his age, his price tag and level of quality is only going to dwindle. We should've sold him when we had the chance to dump him on Benitez at Inter, but should continue to look for anybody else that buys into the myth of his importance to a top team before dumping him on them for whatever we can get.
Silva/Amoo/Ecclestone could all do his job, with the added bonus of them potentially getting better with time. Kuyt is a poor player and getting worse. Get rid asap.
We're about to go a run of games in the lead up to the new year where we should be taking a minimum of 11 out of 15 points. QPR, Blackburn and Newcastle at home should return us 7 points + Villa and Wigan away should return us another 4 points. This will put us on 34 points for the first half of the season which is 9 points better off than after 19 games last season when we were on 25 points.
ReplyDeleteQuestion:
If we achieve 34 points in this time frame, are we then improving or will we only be judged by how other teams' achieve around us?
I'd argue that 9 additional points at this stage shows a real improvement even if it means we're still outside the top 4.
You were behind hicks and Gillette too...
ReplyDeletego see a different club then....
ReplyDeleteHas anyone taken in to consideration we sold Torres $50m,
ReplyDeleteMeireles $12m, Babel $5m (or there abouts)... Not to mention cut the wage bill by $30m per year!
I do agree most of the players are well under par... ESPECIALLY Andy Carroll, but to say we have spent $118m and harp on about that is crap! As Scotty mentioned, Liverpool are in fact playing much better!
We have been extremely unlucky in front of goal... No other team has hit the woodwork as much as we have!
I just don't see the point in harping on...
We get it... Money has been spent... But how much did Man City spend before they made top 4???
Now look at them... Still spending but at the top!!!
It takes time and also unfortunately, some players work out while others don't!
Torres is another example of this for Chelsea! $50m with no return... Unfortunately it just happens...
Sick of hearing the money spent again... again... again... again... etc...
if Henry has bought the club to make profit in one year,then you are right.but Henry,actually FSG,have bought the club with long term success and profit,you better watch what you write.and if we miss on top4 this season,it wont be the end of the world,relax.we are creating something from zero and you are so fool comparing Hodgson and Kenny.the team has been performing way better with Kenny.we have 3 away losses,1 is on White Hart Lane where Kenny made very bad tactics but the other two are Stoke and Fulham,were we played way better than them.on Anfield we have drawn Man utd,Man city,Norwich,Swansea where in all these 4 teams their keeper saved their day.i know that we should have won those games no matter what,but shows you that even the games we didnt win,we played well.this time last year we were losing 2-1 at Tottenham,3-1 at Blackburn,3-1 at Newcastle,1-2 from Blackpool at Anfield,0-1 from Wolves at Anfield,we barely won Bolton with a late minute Joe Cole goal 2-1,we had also lost from Man utd 3-1,loss to Man City 3-0.....Just watch last year's games and this year's games,it shows you we are starting to catch up on the other 5.out of everything Kenny's done so far,the only thing i am dissapointed is paying over the odds for Andy Carroll,35 million could have been spent way better.then the other players Downing 22 million,it's a lot of money but had he scored the goals that hit the woodwork or the assists that the other players missed,we would be talking for a great winger already.Henderson also is only 21 years old and i am starting to like him a lot,he has energy on our midfield.Adam for 8 million,Jose Enrique for 6 million,Sebastian Coates for 7 million,Luis Suarez for 22 million,Bellamy free,all these are steals.and we are talking about such players while last summer Roy Hodgson was filling the squad with overwaged flops like Jovanovic,Poulsen,Joe Cole,Konchesky.........KONCHESKY!!he bought one of the worst ever players to play for Liverpool and gave to Fulham 2 of our talents plus 4 million.(Lauri Dalla Vale was the one i think)...LoL get your facts right and wake up.Kenny has done a great work so far.YNWA
ReplyDeleteHow about taking into account the fact that we have recived loads of money for players like Torres....
ReplyDeleteThis article is okay if you are into statistics but what it means in the real world is that it´s total rubbish.
What matters is that we are making progress, which we undoubtedly are. This supposed £118 million spend is a tabloid-esque misrepresentation. The net spend is actually more like £50 million but that's not sensational enough for a tabloid wannabe like yourself is it?
ReplyDeleteWith regards to 4th place I don't think that will matter, Dalglish will still be in charge next season regardless of whether we finish top four or not.
What you fail to understand, like so many fickle fairweather 'johnny come latelys' is that this is Liverpool, not Chelsea.
First of all thanks for the website Jaime and the though provoking pieces. Whether everyone agree's with the conclusions or not its still an interesting read. Although the stats back up the statement I think using a different reference point of 1st half of last season with Hodgson and 2nd half of season with Dalglish that include the majority of the spend (Carroll and Suarez) whether you include the sales of Torres and Babel either way the cost per point or return on investment gives a totally different picture than the above. I do though agree with the "Needs to change comments"
ReplyDeleteThe massively better performances are enough for me- the lads need to keep at it, stay positive, and things will change.
ReplyDeleteI agree that KK is not picking his best team, and I'm baffled at why he is so stubborn about not playing Maxi, when the rest of the world can see he's a better option- but in all bar one or two games we've done more than enough to score and win.
Our luck will change.
The cost per point is a ludicrous assertion! It makes the assumption that all our new signings will either suddenly die or transfer on Bosmans before the next match! You need to take into account the difference our current squad is being paid in comparison to last season, and the transfer fees offset by the players we've sold, and then forecast just how long each new signing will be at the club and how you would expect them to perform the following seasons. Already, if they perform to the exact standards for the next 3 years, then the amount has to be quartered. If our signings from this season do better subesquently, the cost per point is lesser still. Other factors you must consider would be what other clubs have spent, and that would definitely make the cost of improvement even costlier, so you will have to deduct that from the 29m, seeing as it is relative - That said, our position in the table compared to the same time last season is significantly higher and that, more than the points, is what was bought. And then if you factor in the quality of football and the depth of quality throughout the squad, you'll find that even the net spend cannot account solely for points. Seeing as our new boys have all penned 4-5 year contracts, the starting point would be 6-7m per point(assuming 118 IS indeed the net spend, the new signings have added nothing but points and all the other teams remained stagnant in their spending.)
ReplyDeleteWhile you have echoed the public sentiments in what they'd like to see Kenny doing, you've obviously not crunched the numbers hard enough and possibly chipped a tooth in the process.
Funny how everyone is wanting Rafas free transfer and bargain basement buys back in the team,and without Lucas who was laughed at by most LFC fans we dont look steady at the back after 5 minutes Fulham had a one on one.surely this proves Dalglish has wasted our one golden chance to spend the money wisely.Suarez has no support,Aquilani and Meireles would have suited him perfectly with theirattackin styles and ability to spot the quick pass.Instead Dalglish has ripped up a perfectly good team so he can put his own mark on the team and say its his team.Dalglish has done what was best for Dalglish,spent John Henrys money as fast as he could assembling overpriced rubbish which wasnt needed.Rafa would of bought David Villa with the Carroll money,he tried to get Silva and £12m was agreed but hicks and gillette wouldnt pay it.Dalglish has the added advantage of no european football to prepare his teams better.Those people who wanted Rafa out I hope you can live with yourselves with the demise of a worldwide institution who Rafa built up out of nothing to top ranked team in europe for 2.5 years.
ReplyDeleteJK, do you think we are better now than under hodgeson?? I do.
ReplyDeleteThis season we have played well and been a bit unlucky through hitting the woodwork LOADS and great goalkeeping by opponents. I agree that what ultimately matters is points, but you must agree that to do well in the league you have to have a good squad with strength in depth.
which is something that our fantastic owners are doing their best to achieve through investing heavily in the squad. But you need a bit of patience. You have to take steps one at a time to drastically improve a whole squad. It is unreasonable to expect immediate drastic championship winning change, we have some immediate improvement which means we are on the right course. The team is a new team so there is always room for improvement, but it takes a bit of time. Surely the important thing is that we are actually improving since Hodgeson. We all want CL football, including the owners, and we are headed in the right direction so I dont think it fair to demand that we should be better than we are, we are a work in progress and fans need to have a little patience.
I'm totally behind Jaimie Kanwar about this... Probably the people who are waiting too long for liverpool to grow doesn't care about Stevie G or Carra to lift a trophy as Liverpool players...
ReplyDeleteLook at the fact, why we have to lose points for waiting players to grow while we have the players who can maintain the points while the newcomers grow??
If u're willing to see another season for Liverpool not in europe again, then u're willing to see our star player leaving the club.. and I mean where's the passion for ur beloved club??
WE CAN WIN every game... why we have to bet on a setup which is not working????
We're losing game for nothing....
Jaimie, interesting article as usual.
ReplyDeleteHowever what you fail to mention is that when Roy Hodgson was sacked,
Liverpool had played 20 games and still only had only 2 more points than
they have had the moment after 14 games...Another comparison in January please!!!
Idiot!
ReplyDeleteI've said it once and I'll say it again: Anyone who includes insults or derogatory comments in their posts will have their comments deleted.
ReplyDeleteDebate in the right way or not at all. The comment is very clear on this.
when rafa was here,his tactics were wrong blah blah blah even though we qualified to Cl..now we are playing attractive football and all that matters is 4th place..playing attractive football and getting into CL spot is possible and i believe in kenny..but you..ughh
ReplyDeletei agree with you 100%
ReplyDeleteOf course we're better now than under Hodgson; that's not the issue. The point is, despite being better, we're still only 4 points better off, and a points per game average of 1.6 is not going to be enough to get into the top 4. This is irrefutable fact. My main point is that after spending so amuch money, Liverpool should have more points on the board, and the fact we don't is a concern, whether the 'head in the sane' brigade choose to accept it or not.
ReplyDeletePeople constantly saying 'but we play good football' is not going to magically make Liverpool move up the table. KD has made mistakes this season that have led to Liverpool dropping 10 points at home; this needs to change, and it's still within the club's hands to make those changes now and then reap the benefits.
If things continue the way they're going, Liverpool will not finish in the top 4, and no amount of great football is going to change that.
As far as results are concerned, we are doing slightly better than you make out. We've won a lot more on the road this year, so far, however you are right, that we should be winning more home games.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the problem is the mentality of the team, we step up a gear when we're playing a good side but, for some reason whenever we play one of the, so-called weaker sides, we drop points.
We've only really had one disastrous game, the Tottenham game, and we are playing well in most games, so on balance I'd say we were about a thousand percent improved, performance wise, than under Hodgeson.
Wit respect to money spent, though, you quote our gross spend, but our net spend is a fraction of £118 Million. I think it comes in around £48 Million, correct me if I'm wrong (not had the chance to go through it all). Which is what the team NEEDED to get itself back to a decent standing. Plus we've also reduced the wage bill significantly.
It's difficult weighing all these things up together to see if we're doing as well as we should be. Although in my opinion we should be doing a lot better. But, of course, it's only approaching the half-way mark of the season, and we traditionally do much better in the second half ... so we do still have a chance of a top four finish, I'll never write it off until its mathematically impossible of course, so here's hoping ...
net spend 35 million dont twist facts
ReplyDeleteTypical avoidance tactics: concentrate on something that's completely irrelevant to the overall issue as a means of avoiding the main point. Bravo!
ReplyDeleteyou think you everything, why dont you apply for take over kk, you dick head
ReplyDeleteyou are a d i c k h e a d
ReplyDeleteJamie:
ReplyDeleteWhy not write an article asking us fans whether we're being 'entertained' of or not this season. Ultimately, what's it all about? IMO going to football is about entertainment. It's about putting aside all life's woes and going and enjoying a couple of hours at Anfield and few more when travelling to away grounds. The first half of last season was hugely disappointing from an entertainment perspective. There was literally no buzz at the stadium and it reminded me of Houllier's final season at the club. In fact, we may have won trophies under Houllier but I have always said I never enjoyed the football we played back then. Moreover, Rafa had a tendency to hold back in games once we'd scored a couple of goals. Don't get me wrong, we had great CL outings under Rafa and he will probably go down as being the most tactically astute manager we've had since Paisley but that often made the football quite sterile to watch.KD is a throw-back to the halcyon days where as a club we could mix it up with style and grit. I realise times have changed and the game has moved on but the general principles of football haven't and like Barcelona have shown, a pass and move style still works in the modern game. It will be interesting to hear from fans that despite missing out of CL football, buying the top quality players and winning trophies whether they are actually being entertained or not? For me the City game was fantastic and even though we probably did enough to win it, more than anything I really enjoyed that match. Isn't that what it's all about?
Would anybody swap this squad for the one we had last season????, would anyone swap KK for Hodgson????. I doubt it very much, we are looking fine long-term with a tweak here and there.
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree. We might be playing better football, but at the end of the day we aren't making any progress (in terms of getting to the CL) and have become even more of a laughing stock due to some insanely bad transfers. Arguably worse than Hodgson's as they cost soooo much more and offer about the same - nothing. Enrique, Adam, Bellemy and Suarez all look the part and we're the one's that weren't overpriced, but the English trio (I'm sure it's just a coincidence) of Hendo, Carroll and Downing? Mmm. Hendo will probably come good if played in the centre.
ReplyDeleteHodgson was awful, don't get me wrong, and Kenny is a God, but his constant experimenting and trying to force the likes of Carroll and Henderson into the team at the expense of results will ultimately get him the sack. FSG didn't want him to begin with (as they deemed him too old), he's skating on thin ice and not playing in-form players and I don't see it ending well at all... YNWA
I agree that entertainment is what it's all about, and in that respect, I am loving this season. However, if Liverpool finish 6th this season, and Kenny Dalglish gets sacked, how are you going to feel then? I doubt you'll be happy.
ReplyDeleteThe standard of football is immeasurably better but FSG are businessmen and will want a a return on their outlay.Unless they see a quantitative improvement such as a top four finish I doubt they will pour anything else down the money pit
ReplyDeleteYou are missing my point. Forget that we are "playing better football" that is a minimum expectation. My point is that we are a WORK IN PROGRESS, and with less than 1/2 the season gone we are already very close to the top 4. To demand we should be in the top 4 with less than half the season gone after the shambles we were in, is I think, unreasonable. Yes, we should be moaning if we haven't seen an improvement, but we have seen one. Rome wasnt built in a day, and to completely change a squad that was really lacking in many departments takes more than 6 months, playing wise and personnel wise. We're doing 'ok' at the moment. We're on the right track.
ReplyDeleteNo, I wouldn't be 'happy' but as long as what is decided in the best interest for the club and I am still being entertained under the new management, then I would have less concern.
ReplyDeleteKD is no doubt loving his second spell but he is the first to admit that 'no one is bigger than the club'. And KD will surely walk before he is pushed.
Agree with you on Rafa, easily our best manager since Dalglish left Liverpool all those years ago and one of our best managers ever. I don't agree with you on Dalglish however, some of the mistakes (e.g. Aquilani) were probably pre-determined by the Hodgson-Purslow fiasco team and I am positive that both Adam and Henderson will (or have) prove(d) themselves as good buys in midfield (not to mention the excellent transfer business by Dalglish and Commoli with respect to Bellamy, Enrique and Coates). Big question marks remain with respect to both Carroll and Downing, both of whom cost far more than they should and are suffering under the pressure of their price tags. On the whole, however, I am far more comfortable with this team than the mess created by Hodgson and Purslow. I would have brought Rafa back in a flash when Hodgson was finally sent packing, however I cannot complain when we have a manager of Dalgish's calibre at the club. I do however hope and expect us to do better in coming transfer windows.
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of rubbish I am NEVER EVER going to read anything from this site again
ReplyDeleteI think its rather shallow to do a comparison on money spent vs points - doesn't highlight anything - just another meaningless stat. if we don't spend then there's the media and "fans" who say we don't spend money. Hodgson was one of the worst ever managerial choices for liverpool, it should never have happened. We're just into December and there's a long way to go.
ReplyDeleteWhat they lack is genuine luck or rub of the green as they call it.. Tottenham and Arsenal are in a purple patch.. We shall have one of our own soon.. What you pointed out is a fact.. But then, football is there to entertain and we're doing that.. Fans are still excited.. So revenues will be higher than last year.. I guess we can go another year without CL football.. and just get these guys firing..
ReplyDeleteHow much money does a sense of pride and direction cost?
ReplyDeleteAm I supposed to care about this? Good riddance!
ReplyDeletestevie will be back soon and all will be right with the world. We REALLY miss him...carrol out ta fcuk...in with suarez, bellamy, maxi (or kuyt).
ReplyDeleteHow much will being out of the Champions League for another season cost?
ReplyDeletehave to agree that some bizarre signings because they are English players? surely the rule is you buy best first? take Caroll vs Augero ? ok augero may not have to come but we never tried. Mario Gomez was another option. Did we honestly need Hendo, given that we had a packed midfield anyway, Shelvey was a good backup IMO. Downing? seems a little lost to me, low on confidence. We needed to spend as a club, but priorities have been wrong.
ReplyDeleteGood read, but unfortunatley most blogging fans will understand (or refuse to understand) what you are trying to point out. Truth is we have improved in terms of structure as a club (owners down to squad level) but you are right in saying that the results (which is what matters after all) have not significantly improved and it is not hard to compare that, points tally and goals scored stats as a comparison is enough.
ReplyDeleteSince the summer I have seen a constant lowering of expectation from our own fans, in August we had a squad that could finally challenge for the title, a few months later it drops to qualifying for CL, now slowly some fans are arguing that if we dont make 4th it is still progress???!!!
This may be premature but I do not believe we will make 4th this year, there is no consistency in our performances like rivals have shown thus far and I think we will have a good run of wins but also believe Arsenal or Chelsea will better our points tally. This is my opinion and dont care if anyone agrees or disagrees, but if we dont make 4th then there is no progress at all.
IFs and BUTS, we're only 14 games in, long way to go. You can't chop and change managers after a few games. Do agree we have to play the merit system, keep those that are in form playing. Have to stop playing players because of their cost.
ReplyDeleteLFC is a much happier place without Rafa who never even put a smile on his face when his team won...
ReplyDeleteRafa is history and will remain there. AMEN.
You hope we can live with ourselves now that the spaniard is no longer and will never be again?
Did you know many believe that the Mayan's have predicted that the world will end on 21/12/2012?
If that is the case then it must be good news for you as when that day comes you will no longer have to drag your lower lip crying like a baby over benitez.
If the world does not end :) then may you enjoy many more years of sadness. Benitez is history. Are you still unable to grasp the fact that Rafa will not be coming back ever again?
That is a question you should ask AT THE END of the season. We may well get there yet.
ReplyDeleteThe unpalatable truth for many Liverpool fans is that Kenny has gone and done what we all feared Hodgson would do.
ReplyDeleteTurn us into a long ball team.
When you look at the money spent, the majority was on Andy Carroll and support players to feed him longballs.
As a result our pass-and-move play has certanly regressed from the end of last season when we played some brilliant fluid attacking football.
My only hope now is that FSG after their end of season review, have a quiet word with Kenny and convince him to change tack.
If we're serious about pass-and-move football, then we'll need to rebuild the team around Suarez and not Carroll.
we need a run of games and given the fixtures this is where it should start. Without stating the obvious, we simply are not scoring enough goals - Suarez a fantastic player, but his goal ratio has been poor of late. We need SG back, maybe to sit behind Suarez like the SG / FT partnership or we need a quality striker in January, probably both options.
ReplyDeleteLike the point about Suarez needing to improve on his finishing. A simple suggestion is for him to watch and learn from old videos of Fowler and Owen. These two were natural finishers who made scoring goals look easy and simple. Suarez however tends to complicate things. An example , his goal at home against Wolves. Could have just angled a shot across the keeper but he chose to twist and turn. The ball went in and the goal looked brilliant but had he missed, would've made him looked rather silly.
ReplyDeletejust to add, everyone should understand the message behind these statistic... it's much more then what i'm about to say...
ReplyDeletei think we shouldn't consider the player we sold, since the money we earned did not affect the game we played... even we got 50mil, buying andy for 35 mill is still a nonsense... it's not worth the quality he had, the game we played, and the time we spent waiting for him to develop...
That's not quite true though is it? if we finish 5th that is clearly an improvement on last season. Plus, if you are actually attending the matches this season, you will notice that we are creating significantly more chances than we did under Roy Hodgson while playing better football.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, not everything can be explained with statistics - the 'stats' showed an even game against fulham, while for anyone watching, there was only going to be one winner until Spearing got a red card for kicking the ball away too hard...I think we might not make 4th but this would be as much down to the overall quality of the top 6 clubs rather than the fact that Liverpool haven't made any progress, we certainly have.
You're right on the Tottenham performance, I could count 4 draws this season where we deserved all 3 points (Norwich, Man U, Man City, Sunderland) and even 2 losses where luck cost us 3 points, not even 1 (Stoke, Fulham) while it has only really been the Everton game where we got points that we didn't earn.
ReplyDeleteThe width of the post/crossbar has cost us about 8 points all by itself. Fine margins between us and a top 3 position, I would say.
Finishing 5th will not be *enough* of an improvement. FSG have clearly stated that this season's goal is CL football. If Liverpool fail, then you can kiss goodbye to having KD in charge.
ReplyDeleteI have not tried to explain everything with stats; whenever stats are used to prove something that someone doesn't want to accept, they're always attacked, but when the stats prove something people agree with, they're suddenly absolute and irrefutable.
Whether you or anyone else wants to accept it or not, Liverpool's points per game average is not good enough right now, and if it continues, there will be 4th place finish.
Why does any of this matter? At the end of the season, when Liverpool finish 6th, and KD is sat across from John Henry trying to save his job, do you think that moaning about bad luck, hitting the post, and almost-winning are going to cut any ice with him?! All that matters is concrete results; points on the board; achieving the agreed goals, and fans need to start accepting that.
ReplyDeleteWe should undoubtedly have more points, and it is definitely a concern if we continue as we are, but I'm not sure you could hand on heart say that our performances haven't been good enough to have got at least 8-10 points more than we have, it's hard to imagine we will continue to be as unlucky as we have been.
ReplyDeleteThat said, there are some players who have a 'knack' of scoring goals, Maxi Rodriguez stands out as one, Gerrard is an obvious one (Shelvey is another), and when your team is playing well and creating chances, you need players like them to be in the team alongside the Suarez's of this world. I would probably be trying to get them in the team more often, given our lack of goals.
It's a pretty small moan compared to the soul-destroying malaise of last season though, to be honest.
We did also recoup a good £60m in that period though, didn't we?
ReplyDeleteWe're not on the right track - a points per game average of 1.6 proves that. If we maintain that, we'll end the season with 60 points, which is not enough for 4th place.
ReplyDeleteWe're on the right track in terms of performance quality, but that alone is not going to get Liverpool into the Champions League.
How does money recouped from transfers have anything to do with getting league points? It has absolutely nothing to do with it!
ReplyDelete"My main point is that after spending so amuch money, Liverpool should have more points on the board, and the fact we don't is a concern."
ReplyDeleteNew owners came in and spent 35M, that isn't that much. 118M is a twisted stat and you know it, please don't stoop to tabloid techniques to draw comments. This season we are playing better and, bar the occaisional blip, are steadily improving. Your contention that chances don't equal points is spun the wrong way. Without creating chances we won't score goals.
If we fail to score in 90 minutes there is a world of difference between no shots on target, and 10 top class saves and hitting the wood work 3 times. Yes the score is still 0, but you can take positives to propell you forward. We could not do that last season, but that's what is happening to us now.
You can spin stats any way you like. Why choose to be negative? You have an audience here and you could help to lift the LFC zeitgeist.
Calm down Jay, the points aren't good enough, but the performances are refreshing and I'm fairly sure Kenny will get more than the one season as long as we are clearly playing better football - don't forget Hodgson's sacking was forced to happen DURING the season because of poor performances and a resulting drop in attendances, FSG know what to look for.
ReplyDeleteNo, I disagree, John Henry WILL look at the bigger picture, he did with Hodgson.
ReplyDelete118m is only a twisted stat to the net-spend cult. In their accounts, Liverpool record gross outgoings when it comes to transfers, and in the next accounts, it will record a figure of 118m on transfers.
ReplyDeleteWhether you choose to accept it or not, 118m is the amount of money that has passed from LFC to other clubs for the services of players.
I am not being negative; I am being realistic. My criticism is entirely constructive, and if you can't hack it, then that's your problem, not mine.
well it means we didn't just *spend* £118m, we spent £58m, so your points per £m calculation is wrong. That's all.
ReplyDeleteBigger picture? Is that why he sacked Hodgson after 6 months?
ReplyDeleteSemantics. In any event, spend per point is only a minor part of the overall point I'm making, yet you and others are seemingly obsessed with it. It's just avoidance tactics; a way of avoiding the bigger issues that need addressing.
ReplyDeleteon this site,only jamie knows football... others are just crap!!
ReplyDeletefrom what i see,it's plain easy to understand that you talk like an amateur. A true supporter will always support the team. with people like u,the team will never move forward.
but with supporters like us,the team will never walk alone.
Dalglish should be sacked!
ReplyDeletewell lets start to become like chelsea, lets bin the manager if he does not make the 4th spot, lets chop and change each season. for sustained success you need stability. What you need to remember is that KK has not been at the club a year yet! he needs time; it took alex ferguson years to win the league at man utd. we gave houllier 5 years and benitez 6 but we moan about KK within his first year; a person who has always succeeded whatever he does at liverpool. what liverpool fans and particularly YOU need to understand is if KK says he needs time then as a liverpool fan, you should respect this mans wishes and give him it. we constantly use YNWA. however are we adopting this? I ask this beacuse like alot of liverpool fans lately, they seem to change their mind like the wind, one day lucas is rubbish, another he is amazing. win against chelsea and KK is amazing, loose against fulham and he is getting compared to Roy Hodgson of all people!!!
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be a blind supporter...
ReplyDeleteWould this article be in existence if we scored from those chances when we hit the woodwork? After all, if they went in we would be just 6 points off Man City. Also goalkeepers have all played out of their skins against us. Norwich keeper, De Gea, Joe Hart ect all saved chances that on another day would've been scored. We have played alot better and players are still gelling and getting used to the style Kenny is trying to implement.
ReplyDeleteDont forget the attacking talent we've lost also- torres, mereiles, maybe n'gog and babel.. But yes I agree with your concerns and also the majority of your proposed solutions..
ReplyDeleteha ha ha... You say that spend per point is only a minor point, yet it is the first words in your article title... What a joke !!
ReplyDeleteI'm referring to net-spend per point in this instance. And even though I mention it in the article, it is not the most important point, and I think that's clear.
ReplyDeleteThere will always be two different kinds of fans ....
ReplyDelete- The blind faith ones, who will never ever voice critical concerns as they are just happy to support Liverpool and be calling themselves the "true" supporters of Liverpool ....
and
- The critical ones, who will always take a more detailed view on things and look where we can improve and get better and better, no matter how well we have done .....
In the end, both have their valid points. I just think, that the more critical fans want to be involved in some way .... unfortunately, that's not possible ....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am on the critical ones side, so I agree with you to some extent, Jamie.
The proof is in the pudding and so far as the man says the pudding looks half baked!! One good result followed by a poor result against the likes of Fulham, Norwich, Swansea.
ReplyDeleteYou can blame circumstances and ulterior factors in one or two matches but when this situation becomes a trend as it is then you have to ask if something needs changing or if mistakes have been made and not rectified- no mattter what the name/reputation of the manager in question......
Jamie, you keep saying that playing quality football "doesn't matter", that only results matter, and that "what difference does it make if we played good football throughout the season".
ReplyDeleteIt makes a hell of a difference.
The difference it makes is that millions of fans who turn up / tune in to the games every week are entertained. They get to watch good football. They have a sense of pride about how their team plays.
Yes it'd be better if we had more points, or course it would. But to the fans, to the people who watch the game because they enjoy watching football, it's not just about cold hard figures. It's also about being entertained.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying results don't matter. Of course they do. But YOU are saying that playing quality football doesn't matter. And you're dead wrong.
When I say it doesn't matter, I'm referring to gaining points and finishing in the top 4. What's the point of playing really well but not winning enough points to qualify for the CL? We have to play well AND win points, and we're not doing that often enough right now.
ReplyDeleteSpend per point was the title of the flippin article!
ReplyDeleteOnly spent 35mil Simon?
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something here, did we only buy Carroll since FSG took over?
If there is one thing that gets to me it is the net spend bullsh**.
come out of your KD-HALO buddy. you understood nothing of jaimie's argument
ReplyDeleteur dead right mate,but things wont change
ReplyDeletemost of the fans dont try to understand the situation. KD for them is only and only about sentiments and nostalgia. KENNY CAN DO NO WRONG!!
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE A BRAVE GUY TO WRITE THIS BUDDY! BUT SADLY, YOU WILL ALWAYS GET OUTNUMBERED AND PERHAPS MOBBED< NEXT TIME YOU GO ANFIELD
ReplyDeleteya, play quality and languish at 10th at the end of the season!! that would make all of us so proud!!
ReplyDeletewe wont get to europe at all like this!! just like this year
ReplyDeleteya, it would be really entertaining to stand among the losing fans!! oh! iam so satisfied, we played such good football for 90 mins
ReplyDeleteperfect conclusion for jaimie's article!!
ReplyDeleteDisagreeing with you does not put someone into "denial". Our players were looking defeated and burned out with Hodgson and the desire was not there. I've nothing against Roy but our team clearly picked up after Kenny came.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you calculate something after a few games then obviously the £ per point is horrendous. If you divide it after a season or 2 then its a more reasonable indicator. To do otherwise involves presenting misleading numbers. But I'm sure you already know that, don't you?
I'm with you on a lot of your points JK but your stance on Hodgson was/is your biggest misstep on the site.
mate, there is no point talking about players that went out. jaimie is generally fixated on the issue of players coming in. no account is made for the players that left and therefore, best to take these articles with a generous dash of salt.
ReplyDeleteits just a stick the media love to beat us with. gross spend gross spend gross spend. It would be nice for once that the gross spend cult at least mention that some players left and therefore value was recouped.
ReplyDeletei for one really enjoyed the evans era. but i guess this doesnt mean squat since we didnt win the league
ReplyDeletenot semantics, economics.
ReplyDeletei would have been glad if the club spent 110 mill gross or 50-60 mill net for 4 extra points in the 2008/9 season
ReplyDeleteAre you really going to criticize Suarez's finish for a play where he actually scored? At least pick out a chance where he hit the post or chipped it over the bar, or the keeper made a brilliant save.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. But maybe you could ask Manchester United AND Manchester City who were both eliminated tonight in the group stage.
ReplyDeleteWhy? Nothing he said was a lie. You just didn't like hearing it.
ReplyDeleteI can't understand why it was preferable to dish out 20M on Henderson, instead of just giving Meireles a raise.
ReplyDeleteI agree totally with Jamie k's article and I am amazed that so many people on here fail to grasp his point. Anyway I would just like to say that Downing is not as ineffective as most people think. I feel he should play on the right and not on the left if he is to start scoring goals. After all that is where he was successful for Villa last season. Playing him on the left limits him to being a crosser of the ball while playing him on the right will allow him to cut in and be in a position to strike at goal.
ReplyDeleteBut in fairness you should also take into account the transfer money that went from other teams to LFC. You know NET spending.
ReplyDeleteWe did pick up 50m, 15m, 7M, 5M +++ along the way.
Why? When you are comparing the team now to the team a year ago, the players that were here a year ago DO COUNT. It's not like Torres, Meireles, NGOG, Babel, etc, etc, weren't on the field for those results.
ReplyDeleteRafael was shown the door...but guess your King is going to be booted out head first...get ready for it cos its gonna happen..ask hodgson that if you are crapp what happens...so when you wake up from hybernation in spring you will see that Carroll is still a donkey..Henderson will still be a mule and no where near the England team..downing will be still bringing us down...Adam will still be hoping to score deflected goals because he can't shoot..
ReplyDeleteBut lets Just believe...bury your head in the sand and believe....in kk we believe...ye lets believe once more...king kenny is the best...we support kk and not Liverpool....under kk we will not win anything or even qualify for Europe...but we don't care we support kk.
accepting benitez will never come back and respecting what he did for the club are two entirely different things. Rafa had one terrible season and was never given the chance to right it. When has rafa been given 118 million to spend for you to say he is rubbish. And Jaimie since you talk about results, I can't understand how you crib about rafa. He got us into the champions league every season bar one. Kenny Dalglish, undeniably has played great football and is a fantastic manager, but Rafa used to get us into the champions league more often than not on a much more menial budget. The season we finished 7th he had a negative transfer spend. So for anyone to abuse Benitez is beyond me. Did you see aquilani in pre-season? if that muppet hodgson hadnt sent him on loan his first season to accommodate joe 'average' cole he would be creating chances galore, something he is doing at Milan right now. So far only one manager has got Torres to fire...Rafa...not Carlo Ancelotti not AVB not Roy Hodgson. Learn to give credit where its due. You fail to understand when Rafa came in he had to rebuild an entire team, to point out net spend of 150m is pointless because he wasnt given that in one go. He had to improve the team year on year and the team had reached its goal in 08-09 when we almost won the title. If hicks/gillette had given him the money to buy 2 world class players, 50m which is what KD net spend this season probably is it would have been a whole different story. Kenny Dalglish is a legend, so is Benitez. He used to focus initially more on the champs league not to feed his own ego but to gain more revenue so he could buy and attract better players to eventually win the premier league. He understood tactics could help win in Europe but not the Prem. He revamped our academy. Jose Segura and Borell are brilliant, he got them. He got KD to the club to work at the academy despite knowing that having such a powerful figure at the club is not great for the manager. The man is a genius and I fear he is going to prove it elsewhere someday. Red4life i dnt deny he's never coming back, but it is our loss as much as his.
ReplyDeleteJaimie. We'll have to agree to disagree. Let me go back almost exactly a year to illustrate my point. Liverpool played Wolves at Anfield. Pepe Reina launched the ball up field 30 times in that games about 25 more times than he did when Liverpool played Wolves the last time at Anfield under Rafa. That was LFC under Hodgson in a nutshell.
ReplyDeleteI am a big lover of stats too. Why are we where we are: we have the 2nd lowest attempt-to-goal conversion ratio of any side in the EPL and by far the lowest in the top seven. We have had more goal attempts than any other side bar Man City. We've also hit the woodwork (12 times) more than any other team.
So it's clear we have one aspect of our play we need to improve significantly. We have the best defence in the EPL and haven't had a problem creating chances.
Fact is we have beaten Arsenal and Chelsea in London and were better than the Manchester teams at Anfield. Apart from the Spurs game we've played consistently well. Not brilliantly there is a difference.
We resemble Spurs a lot last season in our inability to convert pressure into goals and be clinical. Did they reinvent the wheel this season? No - they enhanced their squad and look where they are. There's a lesson there for Liverpool.
If you know anything about NESV and the Red Sox you'll now they have a history of continuity with managers and coaches.
I'll venture that even if we don't make the top four that Henry as a lover of stats like you and I (and someone who made his fortune through his mastery of them) will stick with Kenny and Steve if they continue with present trends.
Have some faith - YNWA
29m per point? Some players KD bought didn't start some of the league games, how did you come out with that figure?
ReplyDeletePlease don't be a lazy journalist like other websites...
Unless you can afford to cover all of your mistakes with infinite financial backing, team's really need to do this kind of analysis. The option of faith and it's ugly sister "burying your head in the sand" should primarily be the tools of the fan to cope with the shortcomings and failure to meet fair/unfair expectations.
ReplyDeleteThat there are people writing articles in an analytical manner separates it from 99% of the other rubbish football websites. Even if jaime's argument is wrong, at least he is bringing some analysis to the table. That his style is perhaps a bit of the "glass half empty" viewpoint is not the issue, it is food for thought.
comparing our position now to last year is pointless. all the teams are different and so is the fixture list. How many teams at this stage in any season you care to think of, actually finish there? any comparison of points and money is only relevant at the end of the season. The only way this would be a fair comparison is if you compared the results from last year against those from this campaign in the corresponding fixtures
ReplyDeleteNo, not for nothing. We are now going through a necessary bedding in phase which results in LFC not being where it could right now. I'm sure Kenny, like all of us, are aware who our best players are and that we could do much better right now playing them. However, the players we've acquired this season need the time with the first team in match conditions to gel. Squad depth is pointless when the depth of quality is only in potential. Our underperformers need to be brought up to scratch. So if this needs to be done, the next question would be when would be the best time to do this?
ReplyDeleteWe have to agree that if all our new signings improve and are playing closer to their potential, it would be great for the next and subsequent seasons. If the same players play more than once a week, it is natural their speed and sharpness suffer, and if players try to maintain it, they run the risk of injury. We are all aware what happened to Lucas and all feel its impact. The idea is that we want players to perform immediately upon being called on when rotated, which is obvious is impossible to get from most new signings. I believe Kenny's aim is for the players we've signed this season to be able to do just that next season.
Of course we can play our best 11 more regularly this season given the lack of commitments for now and be winning more matches, but it also means postponing bringing our new players up to required standards. You could argue that if we are in Europe, we will have more chances to bleed these players, but that also means diminishing our chances to win those competitions. We also want these players league ready, otherwise it would have been pointless signing them at all to begin with. If we play our strongest 11 in all games currently and bleed our new players next season, not only would we have wasted time in the development of these players, but other clubs would have had more time to improve and we would be in our current situation amongst stronger rivals, just to do better this 1 season. The later we postpone it, the older these players will be and the worser time it would be to give these players their chances.
I agree we can win every game and that Kenny isn't fielding the personnel we can all see would do so at a canter, but sooner or later, we have to give our new signings enough games so they can actually be worth their transfer fees. It took Lucas more than 3 seasons to be the player he currently is. It took Carragher even longer from his first team debut to his prime. Carroll is 22, Henderson is 21 and they aren't even at the level they were at for their previous clubs - because they haven't played enough. So would we rather they start performing sooner or later? Instantly is out of the question, and the reason why our fellow supporters are upset to begin with, so 'sooner' must be the correct answer! Adam, Henderson and Downing were 3 of the top 10 key pass makers in the league last season. Enrique has performed straight away. Carroll's movement may be horrible right now, but you can't fault his accuracy - just wait till Gerrard or Shelvey start playing and you will see Carroll banging them in. He doesn't need crosses, he needs killer passes. This means Henderson and Charlie Adam not only need experience for Liverpool, they need experience with Carroll.
We are indeed playing with our more expensive players and they are indeed only good enough to be our second team after Rafa's veterans who are playing their best football around Luis Suarez, but Kenny isn't doing it for nothing. It says enough about Kenny that we are 4 points and at least 5 positions better than the same juncture last season whilst playing predominantly what is our B team. However, this expensive B team needs to be sharpened so they are at the level of our A team and that is why they are played, not because of their price tags and although we are dropping points right now because of it, it is definitely not for nothing!
Actually, what will cut the ice with Henry is DC showing him all the stats of successful passes, key passes, goalscoring opportunities created and all other performance measures independent of luck. If say you topped your class with a B average one year and then aren't even in the top half the following year with an A average you've worked hard to get, do you not deserve to say you've improved? I also believe Henry considers peer reviews and the support for Dalglish from the players.
ReplyDeleteI do agree some of us fans need to accept that all that matters to other fans are concrete results, goals and points on the board, but those fellow fans also need to accept there are those among us who value other things, such as football aesthetics, clever play and statistics. John Henry, like Rafa and DC, is probably a stats man. Now, for alot of us non-British fans of clubs we've been loyal to, those of us who became Liverpool fans in the 80s did so because they played the most aesthetically pleasing football, but we've remained fans because YNWA, although many of those who love the beautiful game have since become Arsenal or Barca fans. For those whom all that mattered was results, most of them are currently Man U fans - they have constantly delivered, even in games they didn't deserve anything from, at the cost of decent football.
So if the sections of fans among us accept that the Man U mindset is valid to you guys, shouldn't you accept that there are more important things than points to your fellow supporters? We would love to have the points too of course, but above all, we want to enjoy watching the team play. There was certainly no joy in the way Hodgson got the team playing, nevermind the results; there wasn't the intellectual side to it either that you could see in the way Mourinho/Rafa/Mancini/even Fergie set up their teams. Dalglish, like Guardiola, Mancini and Villas Boas directs an exciting spectacle with a strong tactical undercurrent - and that is what matters most to some of us that I speak for.
According to various sources, we did try for Aguero and were going to offer Atletico 40m Euros, but Aguero is a bigger fan of Pound Sterling FC than Liverpool and Mansour City is paying him twice what we were prepared to.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Andy Carroll, I believe he did look a 35m man before we signed him. Carroll is probably a better finisher than Suarez and is capable of giving most defenders(except maybe Samba and Hangeland) the rough treatment strikers usually get. Carroll also doesn't need the acres of space that Torres or Aguero need to be effective. Aquilani and Barton showed that with the right passes, Carroll is unstoppable, however, our only senior player who plays those passes on a regular basis is Stevie G and the hope is that both of Henderson and Shelvey would be able to do that for Carroll.
Carroll has been looking terrible because he doesn't fit with the rest of our forward line. Maxi, Kuyt, Bellars and Suarez don't need defense splitting through passes - they split defenses with their movement and then lay off for a finisher. Unfortunately for us, Carroll is not on their wavelength and does not know where to be when that happens. If Carroll was at Man City, Spurs or QPR, he might already be in contention for top scorer as Silva, Modric and Barton would all be able to play him in. We spent 35m to ensure they didn't get him!
What is significant about Silva, Modric and Barton is that like Ashley Young, Florent Malouda, Kevin Davies, Chris Brunt, Henderson, Downing and Adam, they were the 10 top makers of key passes last season. Silva and Modric are on fire this season and weren't this good yet last season when they were already very good, and certainly not 2 seasons ago. In 2 seasons from now, Henderson, Downing and Adam would be 23, 29 and 27 - 2 in their prime, Hendo not even approaching it. Carroll would have had 2 years to settle by then. If Carroll improves at the same rate Lucas did and if our 3 suppliers reach the heights Silva, Modric and Barton are at, would they not be worth the 80m spent on them?
Somehow, it is no coincidence Downing and Henderson are playing on either side of Carroll, but Suarez is the wrong man to be behind them - However, if Suarez doesn't play, you can bet most supporters will be baying for blood! I believe the idea is to eventually put Gerrard in behind Carroll, but now that Lucas is injured, Gerrard has to drop back to partner Adam, and Shelvey has been recalled to see if he will work out there
Come on... this isn't the kind of financial analysis the owners are looking at the end of the season...
ReplyDeleteWhat matters most is the amount of profit they are going to make against the money they dumped in...NOT points against the money they invested... There are much more money to make in football other than points