10 Dec 2009

EXCLUSIVE - Rafa Benitez's TOTAL CAREER STATS (Never published in full before)

This post has been updated. Please go here for the very latest figures: Rafa Benitez Total Career Stats: 1995-2010



111 comments:

  1. Fascinating Stat only losing 25% of all games must stand comparison with all top managers be interseting to compare same kind of stats to other prem and top european managers. Whilst Benitez has made mistakes in his LFC career, they all do. Lets stick with him until the end of the season things will get better. Getting rid now will not achieve anything, whoever came in would still have to work with the same group of players, there is no money to strengthen in January. I have read various articles on your website and it is clear that you are very anti Benitez but you dont offer any viable alternative. I know you have suggested Martin Oneill in the past but really is that viable and also apart from winning the SPL he hasnt actually won anything else and his current team at Villa hardly look like world beaters ask any Liverpool Supporter if they would be happy with players like Downing. It would be interesting to compare his career records with that of Benitez.

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  2. 55% must be from time at Valencia

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  3. I can't make my mind up as to whether you are a true Liverpool supporter or a pseudo fan trying to discredit everything we believe in looking at your 'sensational' revelations over the last 12 Months. Either way you're a guy with too much time on your hands. I guess you're just bored but enjoy the kudos of running LiverpoolKOP! Either way I think the real fans will simply get bored of this mindless hundrum. Where are you based, Salford?!

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  4. Hi Jamie,
    what does the stats tells you? it depends how you look at stats. you can interpet figuers as you wish. and we know how you usually interpet facts or figures,
    you said in oyur article that
    From this day forward, there is no excuse to use incorrect figures when analysing Benitez's career!
    I have witnessed some of your arguments against Benitez, you even used Auilaini 's Dad in some dodgy papers to have a go at Benitez, saying he had upset so many players and stars and they are all leaving us(including Hypia) and he should resign on that basis.all that indicates that you use figures, players agents and mum and dad to analyse Benitez career and come to same conlcusion that he should go and Liverpool should have listened to you and get Martin Oneil.you expressed your frustrations by saying     
    I'm also tired of people using inaccurate information as fact. For example, when talking about overall win percentages, people routinely argue that Benitez's figure is 55%. Where do they get that figure from?

    can you also be fair and see how frustrated we feel when we see you put your rational hat on and start having a go at Benitez. His record of winning thropies at Valencia was the reason we got him and so far he has won us three cups in five years. and we fisnished 2nd last year. we had 4 years of enviable run in europe and even this year, we should judge him once the season finishes. I hope you publish this reply. 

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  5. All replies that don't resort to playground tactics stay on the site.

    The stats reveal alot of things, and the majority of interpretations will have validity.  Just because one person uses the stats to back up a specific POV doesn't mean they're wrong.  You should try and separate your pro-Benitez view and try and look at things fairly when stats are used.

    The moist irritating cliche of all is 'stats can be twisted to say anything' .  That is absolute nonsense.  Stats are FACT.  They cannot be twisted.

    I use the stats to back up my views on Benitez; other people use stats to back up *their* view on Benitez. Why is it okay for them and not foir me.

    All the points I raise about benitez are valid, whether you like it or not.

    The difference between me and the pro-Rafa brigade is this: I am willing to accept their view that he has done positive things etc, and if they use credible stats to back it up, I will not argue.

    The Pro-Benitez brigade are the opposite: they are UNWILLING to acceot that Benitez has flaws and has made mistakes., and they will not accept credible stats that back-up that view.

    That is why I have such disdain for the Pro-Rafa brigade.  They are unreasonable, brainwashed, and incapable of seeing thigs fairly.

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  6. Can we really stick with Rafa until the end of the season if it diminshes our chance to get into the top 4? At moment we are just about in the hunt but Man City will not lose many, Villa and Spurs are unpredicatable but also dangerous. 9 defeats this season so far and if the return of Torres, Stevie and Aqua doesnt workout to be our saviour then there is no point sticking with Rafa. The xmas and new year is a crucial period for Rafa.

    As for alternatives:

    Gus Hiddink - Galvanised Chelsea last year after the Scolari nightmare and were cheated out of the Champs league semi.
    Roberto Mancini - The mastermind behind the the Inter revolution and not to mention our 2 Italian Internationals.
    Frank Rikhard - The 2006 Barca team played the best football ever seen in recent memory. Being wasted in Turkish pub league.
    Sven G Erricson - Outsider but has the record and exprience.

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  7. Well, I for one, support Benitez and accept he had made mistakes. Many mistakes. For instance, its sad that in five years he had been here our youth had not developed as they should.However he is the best man for the situation we are in.
    so calling all pro Rafa brigades unreasonable, brainwashed and incapable of seeing things fairly is a major generalization and unfair.
    What I think is reasonable IS to judge him at the end of the season. so far our season has been terrible, I agree but I remember last season after xmas we had a terrible spell and many anti Rafa like yourself gave up on our season and called for his head. but we finished second 4 points behind Man U.
    I think its reasonable to say that at this stage, with all financial problems and injuries, having a go at Benitez and saying he should resign, should be the least of our priorities.
    I hope you publish my reply.     

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  8. Is there anyone out there who actually reads Jamie's articles and agrees with them? To me it seems that all you do is annoy people!

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  9. <span>
    "That is why I have such disdain for the Pro-Rafa brigade.  They are unreasonable, brainwashed, and incapable of seeing thigs fairly."

    Jaimie - that is a shockingly inaccurate misrepresentation of the majority of arguments I've seen on here. If people resort to didactic argument when debating with you it's a direct response to your 'one story' style. The majority of posters I've read on your site accept Rafa has flaws and they're well acknowledged by most Reds I know - including the majority who do not want to see the back of him. For you to argue that others are too intractable in their views is quite possibly the most hypocritical thing I've heard this year. </span>

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  10. I am by far pro Benitez but having read many of your articles, it feels that you look for anything to diminish the mans name. I accept that he has failed the fans, alongside the board. His choices have not been great and again I accept that, but give the man credit where it is deserved. I love Houllier for what he done for us, but he had taken us as far as he could, maybe the same could be said for Rafa, maybe. But some of the articles you come out with are beyond a joke. Aquilani himself come out and stated that he needs time to adjust and get back to his (and as you say quotes are facts). That sounds a long way away from your article a few days back saying he was annoyed with Rafa, where your only source was his father talking to papers.
    I agree that many Liverpool fans dismiss the part that Rafa has played in our demise this season, but at the same time you seem to overplay it. This team is essentially the same team that went to Old Trafford last year and beat them 4-1. Senior players have let us down badly. Torres has been unlucky, but again we missed him for half the season last season and we coped. Stevie has not performed to anywhere near his level. Kuyt, after an amazing season last season, has been poor. Same with Masch. Then add to that the fact Carragher is having an absolute nightmare along with skrtel. Then add the injury list, you have to agree that this is not totally rafas fault.
    Some idiot said to me the reason zonal marking worked before was because we had Hyypia and Crouch, well last season Crouch was not there and Hyypia played the smallest role. So last season zonal marking worked with our "smaller" players, why not this season? We've conceded majority of our goals through set pieces and this has cost major points and this is down to a leaky defence that has been solid over the past few seasons. This is not something we can put down to Rafa.
    Regardless of whether I want him there or not, he is our manager and he is trying his best for our club. I will support him until he has no affiliation with this club. Lack of support will prove counter productive and I will support my team through thick and thin.
    If he was to go, someone like Martin O Neill who probably (I'm assuming) does not have a record near Rafas is not going to be a sufficient replacement. Although Hiddink, Rjikaard and Erikkson are all very good shouts. Definitely not Mancini, the guy had crazy money to play with and was never ever a threat in CL. He would struggle in this league anyway.

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  11. Guest - yes, very, very occasionally one of Jaimie's articles sparks a line of thinking that I'd overlooked and I do think there's merit in testing your own point of view by comparing it to people with very different thoughts. But the vast majority of articles don't achieve this. So yes, I occasionally agree with him.

    Despite being brainwashed, unreasonable and incapable by dint of the fact that by and large I support Rafa.

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  12. Hi Jaimie, Do you have the images in their original accessible form (excel?) so that I can copy and paste and do my own number crunching?

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  13. 'Is there anyone out there who actually reads Jamie's articles and agrees with them? To me it seems that all you do is annoy people!'

    Couldnt agree more. And have you noticed how he doesnt reply to people who put a valid argument or basically prove him wrong?
    Its just laughable. And he calls these 'playground tactics.'

    'The difference between me and the pro-Rafa brigade is this: I am willing to accept their view that he has done positive things etc, and if they use credible stats to back it up, I will not argue.'

    Oh really?? Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah

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  14. I have them in word format - email me at editor@liverpool-kop.com and I'll email you the file.  Will be interesting to see your conclusions :)

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  15. I think you need to consider something: This site gets 100,000 unique visitors a week (sometimes more). About 0.0003% of those visitors comment; even less coment with vehement disagreement. 

    There are plenty of people who read this site and agree. Similarly, there are people who disagree.

    But you're missing the point: I don't write to get people to agree with me.  That's not my goal.  This site is about provoking discussion, and forcing people to justify their views.

    People go around spouting all kinds of generalisations etc, but when they feel obliged to explain why they think something they sharpen their own opinion in the process.

    Whether people agree or disaagree with me is irrelevent.  I encourage disagreement.  If everyone agreed it would be pretty boring.

    I don't defend my articles to get people to agree - I do what everyone else does: defend my opinion.

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  16. And to be honest, if you don't like that and decide not to visit again then so be it!  Whether 1 or 1 million people read this site makes no difference to me.

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  17. If you want to get a replacement for Benitez, make sure its far better. I am not completely averse to Benitez leaving at the end of the season, but surely you can do better than Sven or Rijkaard. Hiddink's good, Mancini I don't know much about, but from his reputation, he sounds really good. There's also a certain Portuguese manager in Italy who doesn't quite have the same popularity as he did in England, and might be itching to come back. And then there's Martin O'Neill, Jaimie's favourite, who also might be a great bet.

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  18. Kbill - it is not hypocritical at all.  When I refer to the pro-Rafa brigade, I'm not just talking about people on this site; I'm talking about everyone across the net, and all my experiences discussing things with the PRB, both on and offline.

    And what I said is true: The PRB are unwilling to accept any criticism against Benitez.  He is the best at everything; no other manager is as good as him; no other manager can come in and do a better job than him; he has never made any mistakes; the owners are to blame for everything; he's never had enough money to spend; player failures are down to the individual players, not him; he had nothing to do with Alonso wanting to leave; the way he's handled Aquilani is 100% spot on and blah blah blah.

    Even when you give them specific, irrefutable facts and stats to back up your argument, they'll come up with some other lame way to justify things.

    On the other hand, I am perfectly willing to accept Benitez's positives.  I accept he did fantastically well in Spain; I praise him for winning the CL and the FA Cup; I give him credit for improving our youth system; He deserves praise for a few good signings; he deserves praise for making Liverpool a feared European force over the last 5 years.

    If people come along and argue points like these, and used facts/stats to back it up, I wouldn't search for tenuous excuses to discredit him.

    That's the difference.

    I can accept his positives, but I will also criticise his negatives. 

    The PRB will only accept his positives; they will almost never accept his obvious negatives.

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  19. Sweeping generalisations are rarely accurate - you lump a lot of people in together in your PRB which you must realise can't be accurate, especially when personally I've never met a single Red who is 100% blindly loyal to Rafa in the way you describe. Some are close to being 100% apologists, some are at your end of the spectrum but the majority are somewhere in between and open to reason. To put them all into one camp is plainly not a fair representation. 

    And to say it's not hypocritical for you to criticise others for their lack of flexibility of thought is hilarious. You're the most dogmatic or didactic person I've come across when debating LFC or Rafa - compared to you Stalin had an open mind.  This isn't necessarily a criticism though - whilst I do think you're too one-track and inflexible you are at least consistent and often interesting in your wrong-headedness. 

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  20. Martin O'Neill not for me due to his poor record in Europe with Celtic and now Villa. The fact that Gordan Strachan had a better record in Europe than Martin at Celtic says it all.

    How can you say Rijkaard is not adequante? He plays attacking total football and won the La Liga twice and Champions League with Barca in 3 years (maybe 4) and can only be a better man for the exprience.

    Sven fair enough.

    Jose is a proven winner but the fans dont like him for the way he has behaved, besides he wont come to Liverpool due to the turmoil.

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  21. I agree with some of the names mentioned above but i cant see the point of doing anything now There was definately an improvement with more urgency about the team last night, if we can keep Gerrard, Torres and Aquilini fit we will get 4th. Although Gerrard has been out of form really for a while now and has not played to the best of his ability for at least 6 months

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  22. Hi Im a PRB as we are known now, but labelling PRB's as brainwashed and incapable, and by saying we dont accept this or that, we think hes the greatest ever and so on is a load of crap, Jaimie surely this is the same as the snide remarks you delete.

    I for 1 accept like quite a few have already expressed that he has flaws, such as i think he rotates to much, sometimes he is too cautious eg arsenal away last year, he didnt give crouch enough games when at the club and dropping him the next game when he scored the hattrick against arsenal. I think he is being stubborn with the zonal marking system, personally if its not working maybe he should be trying something different or atleast analyse whats going wrong and work on how to correct it. I think Masch and Lucas are too similar and we should only play one of the 2 but at the same time i do think hes handled aqui well, i think it would be stupid to rush someone back to fitness when they have been out for 9 months, I do think he made a mistake when trying to sell alonso but at the same time had alonso not had that kick up the arse would he have performed the way he did last year, personally i think not but that can never be proved as is the fact benitez's handling of aqui can not be proved right or wrong. Saying that if he is fit for the rest of the season playing games then maybe RB's carefull handling will have been proven right. I do believe the owners havnt met their targets, Shovel in the ground in 60 days, well before credit crunch and the fact that rafa wouldnt be given a budget. To back up my point as you have said i must do to prove my POV, Liverpool from 2008 onwards have spent 55 mill and sold players of the value of 46.5. for me a net expenditure of 9 mill is nowhere near the level of transfer money to get that elusive championship. Jaimie you can counter me by saying 20 mill spent on new contracts but to me thats ongoing costs not transfer costs. That level of investment for me is not good enough. So as far as im concerned he hasnt been backed in the market. RE player failures im not doubting some may be his fault but Bellamy was sold supposedly after the risse incident, obviously not rafas fault. Crouch unhappy with lack of games - fair enough rafas fault, hyypia not rafas fault. Babel - personally i dont believe rafas fault but true he doesnt get enough strts on trot, but then again i dont think he deserves to. Keane - bad choice, i agree with jaimie though when he thought money could be used for a right winger.

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  23. Rossi that is an excellent post how right you are

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  24. I have no idea if I'm a member of the PRB - I don't think so because I occasionally disagree with with Rafa's decisions; I also do not think he is infallible (show me a manager who is). But I am definitely a realist and I understand that Rafa is not managing in isolation - other teams are investing (more than us) and the beauty of the game is the anticipation of competition. I am not - and never will be - resigned to defeatism and I think we have to consider all the extenuating circumstances behind our current woes. There is hypocrisy and defeatism on this site but it is coming from the host, not the guests. Granted, Rafa has erred more than usual this season but we have also been dealt a bum hand by the owners and the gods of injury. Let's see how the second half of the the season goes. Let's get behind the team (and Rafa) and suspend our judgment for now. Please?

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  25. another guest . . .4:34 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

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  26. another guest . . .4:34 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

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  27. another guest . . .4:34 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

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  28. I think I should've been a little more specific about the group of people I was referring to - I should have said 'Rafa Can Do No Wrong Brigade', rather than the PRB.  There is a difference between them in that the PRB will admit to his flaws, whereas the RCDNWB (aka thr 'In Rafa We Trust' cult) will never accept any criticism.

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  29. another guest . . .4:40 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

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  30. I think I should've said 'Rafa Can Do No Wrong Brigade' instead of PRB.  There is a difference in that the PRB will accept his flaws, but the RCDNWB will not.

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  31. another guest . . .4:40 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  32. another guest . . .4:40 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re blind Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  33. another guest . . .4:42 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  34. another guest . . .4:43 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  35. another guest . . .4:43 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  36. another guest . . .4:51 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm totally PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Im a in rafa we trust crew but as pointed out before i believe he does make mistakes and do get annoyed with decisions i think the only reason people try to defend him soo much because you slate him so much and it makes people angry especially when you blame him for things out of his control. Such as the aquilani's father comment.

    Quick question, do you believe rafa has already trying to force aquilani out?? because you say above about the benitez effect and the article yesterday about him not liking benitez?

    ReplyDelete
  38. another guest . . .4:51 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm totally PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

    ReplyDelete
  39. another guest . . .4:52 pm, December 10, 2009

    That's ludicrous, (re PRB & "blind" Rafa apologists) no one could argue that RB has not made mistakes, every manager makes mistakes, wrongly mouths off, is vain, is vain about his players, has a short memory, is blind, has favourites, the list goes on, RB has all these qualities as do Mourhino, Ferguson, Wenger, frankly ALL managers from any level.

    Benitez is a good manager, he'll sort the current mess and come good, he needs the support of us all in order to do this.

    There is no short answer, no one player or one manager that can put Liverpool back in a good place, it s going to take time, investment an so on, I think Rafa has some great qualities, he's our manager he's bought & developed some top players on reasonably limited funds in comparison to some other teams so I'm of the opinion that he & the club & players continue to get our support in doing that.

    And yes I'm totally PRB a bit of a Rafa apologist but I know he makes mistakes.
    He's only bloody human you know.

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  40. I think its a general observation that most fans see, its just frustrating i dont want to be labelled pro rafa or whatever but i genuinly think we are in a better place now than we were when he arrived like jaimies mentioned ranked number 1 in europe, christ thats an amazing achievment, Utd etc havnt achieved that i dont think. okay its not trophies but does show how far we have come and we are rightly dissapointed with this seasons performance bt i think thats because of the success hes achieved with us esp in europe. I do believe its not too far fetched to see us kick on soon and put all the pundits in their place by going on a run and getting in the top 4, then theyll all turn round and say thats what they would have expected anyway.

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  41. Yes there are millions who agree with Jamie. They are called Liverpool fans.

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  42. Rossi - it's this kind of misrepresentation that gets on my nerves:

    1. I have NEVER suggested, hinted or intimated that Benitez is trying to force Aquilani out.

    2. I have never suggested that Aquilani does not like Benitez.  Where do you get this stuff from?!

    I posted an article with quotes from his father, who stated that Aquilani was frustrated.  How does this translate to 'not liking' Benitez?

    And no - I do not believe Benitez is forcing Aquilani out.  Why would he?!

    He did, however, force out Alonso, Crouch, Riise, Finnan, Pennant, Keane, Henchoz and Hyypia (amonghts others); In some case he intended to; in others, the way he treated these players forced them out.

    In my opinion, of course ;)

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  43. i would like to have King Kenny, but he's been out of the game for too long. maybe not suitable. but if a legend return back to manage the club, everybody will be thrill.

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  44. I think I am pro Rafa. I believe that he will get us in the top 4 and that he will get a back up striker in January.

    In fact I trust that he will....but does that make me one of the RCDNWB because I certainly feel he has made/is making mistakes; Robbie Keane, Lucas, rant, defensive subs.

    Do you think that if you trust in Rafa that you don't accept criticism is wrong.      Well I do!   Faith I have...I support LFC......a little blinkered, maybe, but not blind.

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  45. It seems that the stats for rafa at the "top level", ie ignoring the smaller clubs he managed when learning his trade, show him to have a fantastic win percentage both in the league and cup competitions. This season seems like a blip when you look at his record in this light.

    BTW am I the only one who thinks that Insua is an appalling defender? Now here is someone who has had a fair run of games to prove himself, and he just isn't up to it. He can't tackle, is too slow, has no sense of positional play, his passing and crossing is average to say the least. Maybe we should give Dirk a go at left back.

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  46. As hypocritical as it gets there JK. U accuse the "PRB" of coming with lame ways to justify their stance but u my friend do the exact same thing and hide behind the guise of opinion. As the guy mentioned b4, alot of the posts I've read are balanced in thier views but tend to mcome off as "only positive" bcuz U JK refuse to accept any argument or opinion that is contrary to your own.

    All this talk that u r so different from the ones u chastise is smoke and mirrors. Produce the stats on the so called "positive" articles vs "negative" articles written by urself and I'm sure the diaparity will be great. Ur no different from the very same ppl u vilify.

    "If people come along and argue points like these, and used facts/stats to back it up, I wouldn't search for tenuous excuses to discredit him"

    Many a time this has been done and u conveniently dodge their points of view or the body of their "position" to answer the most peripheral items in their post. Its all well and good to have an opinion and argue it 100% but its even better to admit that u maybe wrong sometimes cuz nobody's perfect.

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  47. Hi Jaimie. As you know I am quite happy to admit I'm pro Benitez. I would also like to think that you know, that when required, I will back my point of view up with stats or reasoned argument.

    I have to confess that I feel like I have just been thrown in with every pro-Rafa fan and I am now generalised (something I know you hate) as "pro-Rafa" and unable to pick up on his weak points etc.

    For clarity I would like to see Rafa given extra time. This is because until this season we had IMO progressed. 2nd in the PL league with a points total which would normally have been enough to top the table is a clear sign of this. Someone above referred to the lack of quality coming out of the Academy. This is someone anti-Rafa who hasn't done their homework. Most people know that he has only recently gained control over activities at the academy, after a long drawn out political game. There is also no denying that we have had injuries this season unlike any other. Our squad has simply not been able to cope. On top of this I simply do not know if he has been supported in the transfer market; but his net spend would seem to indicate that he hasn't. Hence my recent post about the owners stepping up now.

    A lot of the comments in this thread concede that Rafa has made mistakes, who hasn't? Surely this is a sign that the 'pro-Rafa brigade' aren't as set in their beliefs as you suggest.

    Finally I will come back to the old argument. Who will come in and replace him? I know you think Martin O'Neill is the man but I would suspect that you could be in the minority with that suggestion. Other world class managers would demand support in the transfer market.

    I posted this http://mcdonaldtaf.blogspot.com/2009/12/response-to-rafa-critics.html to my blog (and to your site, hence my introduction). Can you see where I'm coming from about the longer term plan?

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  48. I use to support Rafa, but not anymore. My question to all of you is this: If we could get Guus H. tomorrow, would you prefer to stick with Rafa or Guus?

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  49. sorry not sure what you mean by the benitez effect thats all? or benitez effect strikes again?

    In my humble opinion Jaimie, i think theres more to it, for those who have liverpool than just rafa forced them out, we'll have to agree to disagree on that 8-)

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  50. tough 1 but like benitez with this terrible start to the season, hiddink isnt perfect, russia didnt make the world cup.

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  51. sorry not sure what you mean by the benitez effect thats all? or benitez effect strikes again? 
     
    In my humble opinion Jaimie, i think theres more to it, for those who have left liverpool rather than just rafa forced them out, we'll have to agree to disagree on that :-D

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  52. Surely the only important stat is this season he's won 10 and lost 9. Quite simply, that's shockingly bad.

    end.

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  53. The same Hiddink who didn't manage to get a strong russian side to the world cup? No thanks.

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  54. one bad season does not make you a bad manager. as with the anti benitez supporters, they show no balance in there arguments either. its always rafa forced this player or that player out, what you all seem to forget is the players have never been so protected and have so much power at any time in the games history, the agents  would not allow them to be treated in such a manner. 

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  55. Don't you mean UTD fans

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  56. I am not sure if I agree with you Matt. How can a player stay at a club if the manager doesn't want that player there. Sure, he can just collect the dough, but the player will eventually grow unhappy. You are right in the sense that a player can force himself out of a contract, but the converse isn't true.
    Let me ask you this, would Xabi still be a LFC if Rafa never shopped him around? My guess, and yes it is a guess, is yes. He loved the city, lived near his childhood friend (Arteta) and was loved by the fans - evidenced when the fans chanted Xabi's name to dissuade Rafa from selling him.
    If you answer is yes, ask why he left. And please don't say it is because he wanted to go to Real. Xabi is Basque, and there is great deal of history with the Basque and Real (F. Franco). Also, remember he chose to go to LFC over Real earlier in his career. From what I read, he was urged many times in the cafes of Donostia not to go to Real.

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  57. Thats right dan...

    That is the most important stat... And as supporters we must look at how rafa contributed to this poor postiton!

    In my opinion, if we had far fewer injuries and less bad luck and was in this positio.. Then i and im sure most fans too would be agreeing with jamie....

    But us supporters dont blindly support rafa while our team is suffering...
    We are smart enough to look at the unfortunate over whelming number of injuries we have had, along with the odd beach ball thrown in.....

    When you finish 2nd in the league, the idea is to bring in the odd quality player or 2 to push for first position...

    We didnt do that... We replaced a quality player with a quality player in aqua...

    So when faced with these injuries we did not have the quality replacements to come and continue where we finished of last season.....

    Is this rafa fault?

    I think unless we have quality replacements for each position....
    Winning the league will be punching wayyy above our weight as was finishing 2nd!!

    If you rafa could buy players above £10 for each position as proven he will bring in the right players and with it the league no doubt....

    So point fingers at rafa.... Point them upstaires!

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  58. Why doesn't this apply to Wenger or Fergie? Yet, they are above us. Wenger made 10 changes yesterday and should have gotten a point. According to Wenger, this is the worst set of injuries ever in his career, and yet they are above us - they are kids for heaven's sake. With Silvestre (32) in the lineup yesterday, the average age of the Arsenal team was 20.
    If you feel like it, answer the question above I posed about having Guus H or Rafa, if it could be done tomorrow.

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  59. this is not just a bad sart to a bad season, this is the culmination of bad decisions, bad judgment and no skill, yes no skill, to "read " the situation at the time, formations, subs etc. but we of the "in raffa be gone" club care more for liverpool football club than the raffa benetiz club. all managers have done good and bad, some are better at it, but all have a life-span in thier job. quite simply raffa has to go purely on this disastrous season and the way hes handled it, can you honestly believe its gonna get better? hard to get worse than " the worst liverpool season in 50 years". new broom, new team, new start.  

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  60. 4 finals (2 champs league) 3 cups and runner up in the league ahead of money bags chelsea....and one of the most respected in europe again....

    Yup time to leave rafa!

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  61. <span>Guus H. - just not to see rafa anymore!!!</span>

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  62. good job <span><span>Jaimie!</span></span>
    <span><span>when will PRB will open their eyes??????????</span></span>
    <span><span>the man is just <span>not good enough!!!</span></span></span>

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  63. <span><span><span>guus</span></span></span>

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  64. I think the 57% win rate for the premiership and the 60% win rate for the CL speak volumes.  Only Kenny surpassed that in the premiership/Div1.  I would expect the figures to be close to Wenger and Fergie too.

    With that in mind, WHY would we get rid of a guy who has taken us to that level during his first bad run of results?

    I'm willing to accept he has made mistakes - as he does himself - but I cannot see any other manager that NEVER makes mistakes. 

    I also notice your reluctance to discuss Martin O'Neill.  I'm not sure why.  For me his record in europe is poor - especially with Villa, when they have basically not even cared about Europe for two seasons.  Surely any manager knows his players need experience in Europe.  For me, his style of football is more Gerard Houllier counter attack than anything else.  As someone else said, he wouldn't be welcomed at Liverpool.  And you just know he would want to bring in his loyal servants, Petrov, Heskey et al.  Not good!!!!

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  65. I'm just sad that it's almost 2010 and all we can highlight to date is how magical 2005 was.

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  66. what happened to the trinity shanks talks about.. all you lot do is moan. we r lfc n we stick with our men. full stop,

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  67. How many of you have said the words in Rafa we trust, You'll never walk alone. We are Liverpool fans, We sing never that means win or lose change the manager now, lets be honest who wants to come to a club that needs to win the league with no money and no new signings. We need to be with our manager,our team, we are Liverpool fans. Rafa wants to win, the team wants to win so lets stop moaning and back are team. We all make mistakes and when we do we want help not to be criticised. Lets back the Manager, The Team. arsenal need to here us on sunday backing our team winning or losing The Twelve Man the team needs help. They need to know we are still with them.

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  68. Really???? Knocked out in the group stages; Chelsea contending for the league, LFC not; Chelsea <span>in</span> the Knock out stages, LFC not.
    The problem with Rafa is not that he is a bad tactician, but rather, he is a bad manager. The team's morale is extremely low, and they need a manager to motivate them. Rafa is simply not the man. Chelsea brought in Scolari, a proven winner in perhaps the hardest stage of football: World Cup. He was a total flop!! The players didn't perform for or under him. Now, Guus steps in. Same team and players, and hoila, a whole new team.
    Rafa needs to motivate his players, not treat them as squares. Yes, I know many of you will say that they are professionals and don't need to treated differently, but that is naive. Players are human, and regardless of their status and talent, go through rough patches.
    I think of Sevilla's Navas, who had such mental issues that it prevented him from reaching his potential.
    LFC4life, think about how you respond to your children- if you have any- when they have pushed the enevlope two too many times. I know I have lost my patience and should know better- being the adult- but I haven't, so why should it be with players?
    Bottom line, Rafa has mismanaged his players and lacks the ability to motivate his players.

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  69. Do you mean like the other grand project from Liverpool: Titanic

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  70. Change the record.  It is still possible to support the team and be critical of the manager?  Why is this devastatingl simple concept so hard to understand for people?  I - and others - support LIVERPOOL FC, not Benitez FC.  That's the problem with the 'In Rafa We Trust' Cult - they put their love for the individual over their love for the club.

    When the individual's decisions are affecting the forward progress of the club then that is what concerns me; and I don't care who is in charge, if the club suffers on the pitch - which it undoubtedly has - then the manager needs to be questioned.

    That doesn't mean fans will not support the team on Sunday (or for any game).  Can you not understand that?

    We had the same situation with Houllier; too many fans with blind faith unwilling to accept that things were going wrong. There were fans back then saying exactly the same as you are now, but Houllier still had to go.

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  71. I agree wholeheartedly; however, at the end of the season, if we don't qualify, then Rafa needs to go.

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  72. What happened is the holy trinity was usurped by the unholy trinity of negative football, favouritism and endless acceptance of mediocrity.  The first two are management problems; the third part of the new trinity is a fan problem: deifying players and managers and endlessly accepting and condoning medicrity and poor decisions.  Like this season, for example.

    Accepting mediocrity under the guise of 'support' does not make us better fans; it just hastens Liverpool's continuing decline.

    In the past, One bad season (and by bad I mean finishing 2 and beyond) would mean a big shake-up at the club.  Bob Paisley was a big proponent of this apprach.  Liverpool never used to settle for second best, but now we settle for 3rd, 4th and 5th best.

    And even if football has changed, that mentality should not change.  We should still be aiming for the stars, and our manager should be making the right decisions to at least make that a possibility. And if he *consistently* does not do this, then it is time for a change.

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  73. Right.  And one qualifying campaign defines an entire career?!  This kind of blinkered thinking is typical of the RCDNW brigade: Hiddink has won six league titles (4 more than Benitez) and the European Cup (just like Benitez; he has distinguished himself over and over again, whether it's with South Korea at the World Cup, PSV Eindhoven, or Chelsea last season.  But you choose one disappointment from his entire career and use it as evidence that he's supposedly not good enough to take over from Saint Benitez?

    As I said, blinkered thinking that's typical of blind Rafa apolgist.

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  74. I would take Hiddink without a shadow of a doubt.  He's a progressive manager who likes to play attacking football.  He's also tough, but in good way, like Ferguson. Hiddink would be fantastic at Liverpool, of that I have no doubt.  And even if we didn't win the league for a few years, we'd undoubtedly be playing better football, which would be infinitely preferable to the aimless drudgery we're subjected to at the moment.

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  75. More of the same old excuses.  You mention injuries and pose the question is it Rafa's fault.  YES IT IS.

    1. Aurelio and Agger were both injury prone before coming to Liverpool.  Aurelio, for example, has averaged less than 20 games a season for his entire career.  Benitez still bought them both, and ever since - including this season - they have been continually injured.

    He didn't need to sign players with a history of injuries, did he?  If he'd signed players with a history of FITNESS, perhaps our injury problems wouldn't have been so acute.

    Same principle applies to Philipp Degen - as a result of injuries, he played only 10 games in the season before joining Liverpool.  What happened?  He's been injured for 95% of the time ever since.

    2. Aquilani.  Benitez bought him while he was injured.  He didn't start a game for 4 months after joining, in which time Liverpool crashed out of the CL, Carling Cup and the premiership race.

    If he'd bought a FIT player, i.e. someone who could play from day 1 of the season, our injury crisis would not have been so bad.  Instead, not only were we missing a top class first team player, but we were also missing someone who could step up and cover other injured players.

    3. Torres and Gerrard. Benitez did not give them enough time to recover properly.  This season, both were injured and rushed back, which led to further time out.  None of this would've mattered if we had't lost Alonso/Aquilani was fit, and we had a quality back-up striker.

    Just imagine: If Benitez hadn't bought injury prone pklayers, we could've had a left back, right back, centre back and midfielder FIT during our injury crisis.

    These 4 players would have made a difference, would they not?

    Yes, some of the injuries were bad luck, but Benitez must take his share of the blame too when it comes to injuries.

    In my view, the club should have a blanket policy of not signing injured players or those with a significant history on being injured.

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  76. It's you Jamie, that sounds blinkered and hysterical.

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  77. I would say no to Hiddink as he is not a coach who stays long term (proven throughout his recent tenure. I love the guy (hey I am Australian and worship him!) but he has proven to be a bit of a mercenary for the right price.

    Great coach nonetheless. More of a brilliant man motivator rather than an astute tactician mind you.

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  78. if we're liverpudlian,we know that game is hard..
    but i dont like rafa way..buy a superstar to be success..
    man city YES lfc NOT..in jose at porto,who know deco??

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  79. That's rich from you Jaimie.  You use the last 14 games to define Benitez's Anfield career.  Pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

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  80. Of the 4 you mentioned - gerrard was inheritted, torres wasnt known to be injury prone, deggen was a freebie, and aurilos injuries were not re-occurring ones.

    All players have injuries jamie...
    we have doctors who vigorously check on medicals Before a player is purchased...

    In aquas case, we did take a risk in buying a crock player and only time will tell if he was worth that risk. Iv not seen enough of him to say just yet
    but if he manages to make it to the WC and italy do well with him pulling the strings you can imagine what he will be worth, interms of finance and his performances for us!
    I think rafa knew he would be out slightly longer than what he let off... But just couldnt for see it being as big a problem as it has now become... I think he believed that team would still be able to play as it previously has done without alonso.

    Also i recall when we bought torres he too was injured and still is most of the time...
    Some risks as proven are worth taking...
    If we followed you policy we be missing the best striker in the world.

    I would buy an injured zidane....
    Who knows...time will tell if thats what we have bought in aqua :) (i know style wise they are not alike:))

    Anyone think dossena looked decent game the other night?

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  81. I think scolari would have done well at chelsea if they could understand him....
    His english was at best poor. This was a factor in him beibg able to the job he xan do.

    Any ways...
    Give rafa the amount of money chelsea have to spend and i think you would find knocked out of champions league... Not!

    Guss didnt need to spend a penny he came into team that had all bases covered!
    We are still struggling to do that now and with way things are looking for some time to come......unless we get some new owners in.

    You see you want us to finish above man u, chelsea and soon man city but spend half what they do on players?
    Is it just a coincidence that when chelsea starting spending big they started winning big?

    You get what you pay for.....

    Which highlights what a great season we last under rafa!
    Judge him at the end of the season...
    You may have a diffrent view or maybe mine will.....
    Untill then we must let him finish the job....
    He deserves atleast that much!

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  82. Jamie - Any chance of you doing a stat showing what the top 5 or 6 clubs have spent on players in the last 5yrs outlining what they spent that yr and where they finished in the league for that season....also if you did the same for spain,france,germany and italy.

    I wonder if it would show the obvious... ThAt the big spender usually sit uptop?

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  83. Dude, hardly a balanced response. Hiddink indeed failed with the Russian team and he doesn't have any long term experience in any of the three strongest leagues in Europe. Just because someone doesn't rate him doesn't make them a Rafa apologist or guilty of blinkered thinking. Your gross over-reaction is indicative only of how much you're pre-wired to attack anyone who doesn't support your point of view.

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  84. So what is the Benitez effect then? Just to leave a player frustrated from limited playing time? Is that it?
    I'm curious to know where you think Crouch and Keane would fit in the team today.
    Also, what do you really think of the decision to let Finnan go? As an Irishman I was at first dissapointed but it later turned out that Finnan had massive injury problems after he left. Seems like Rafa saw this coming and let him go just in time.

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  85. The main problem is that this is Rafa's team. Almost every player in the team has been brought in by Rafa and drilled in training to play the Benitez way. Any manager who comes in is going to want to change the players he has and apply his own tactics. How much money would such a manager have in January and how much change could he really make?
    While the fresh energy of a new manager might help teams at the bottom of the league or in the championship win a handful of games it's not going to do much at the top of the best league in the world. Success at this level is immensely dependent on very specific tactics and getting a team to play well, the way you want them to play takes time, quite a bit of time. The best any manager could do for the rest of this season is to implement Rafa's same general tactics with a few minor tweaks. Hiddink would do fairly well at this, in fact he'd probably keep most of Rafa's backroom staff on board. But in terms of getting us into the top 4 at the end of this season I don't see how anyone is an improvement on Rafa.
    One problem with Hiddink is that he has no long term success in a top class league like in England, Italy or Spain. His most notable recent success comes with national teams where training sessions are fewer and tournaments require short term success. His experience in the Netherlands is fabulous but it hardly translates to English football. Rafa himself was won a European cup along with two Spanish league titles. Six dutch league titles is certainly a greater number but does it really add up given it was in such a weaker league?
    Apart from that there is a huge question over his willingness to take up a long-term league project. If Roman couldn't get him on board for Chelsea what chance would we have at Liverpool? It's very tempting to see many of Hiddinks moves motivated by money, something that Australian football fans speculate on quite a bit.
    Having said all of that I do think Hiddink would be a good option for Liverpool. He's certainly a better option than other names being thrown around. He's a very smart manager and would know how to get good results from the players he has. If we could get him on a long term deal I wouldn't be at all upset. I don't see him as an obvious upgrade from Rafa, just another good manager who could keep up competitive in the top four.

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  86. I think it's a lot to suggest a player decided to leave a club based on the notion that he was considered sellable for one off-season. It was obviously a trigger point in Xabi's thinking process, he said this himself, but if that's the full extent of why he left I'm just not sure it makes sense. The manger and club made it very clear that they were happy that he wasn't sold and were surely keen to keep him for many more years. Xabi knew that he had produced a poor season and there must have been other reasons why Real was an attractive option to him.
    Honestly, to say that he gave up everything he loved just because we suggested that he could be sold, a decision that was not followed through on and subsequently happily widthdrawn ... is that really the whole story?
    It's certainly not the case that Xabi was "forced out". It was his decision to leave and no one in the club really wanted it apart from him. If he wanted to stay he could have and it's only his own issues that led him to decide to leave.

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  87. Yeah, great, let's start from scratch and hope to challenge for the league again in maybe 2-3 years. More money to be spent, more time struggling to make the champions league ... at least Rafa has kept us consistently improving up until this point. I think it's the people who think this is the start of a great decline are the ones living in fantasy land. Is that really all you think of this team? Really? The same team that played some of the best football in England last season? We're all done then? All washed up and useless?

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  88. I'm sorry, but how is having a supporting fan base a problem? We're not the one making the decisions, that's up to the board and the owners. If you honestly think that anyone at the top level listens to the likes of us then you'd truly deluded.
    You need to ask yourself: what does a critical and overtly negative attitude actually achieve? Does it help the team win more games? Will it influence the manger, make him change his ways? Will it force the owners or club board members to make any kind of significant decision? Perhaps if, as a unit of one almighty voice we all screamed and shouted for a single action, then maybe we might be heard. Apart from that how is it realistic to think we have such an influence?
    Where we do have influence is the atmosphere and attitude we bring for the team. Our comments are reflected in media reports which can in turn effect the mindset of players. Our voice as supporters at Anfield and in other stadiums, even in bars and pubs around the world, can be heard and really does help to lift or, unfortunately, deflate a team. That's pretty much the extent of it. We can support them or we can pick at them. It's an emotional thing and our emotion and attitude is vital for the team. In that sense I can't see any way in which consistently expressing negative emotions is productive. Disappointment? Sure. Desire? Absolutely. But booing a team at the stadium, hammering the manager in the media, slamming players ... this doesn't help.
    By all means, be critical and express your views. That's part of who we are as modern human beings and maintaining an intelligent point of view is valued. But don't suggest that this is somehow superior or better for our club than displays of faith and loyalty. They're not. They're simply your point of view. You're entitled to it but it doesn't make you a better LFC supporter.

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  89. What I would like to know is why has Benitez won nothing with the team that he has built and is worth about double that of Houliers. Only Carra & Stevie remain from Houliers team. Rafa won both FA cup & CL with Houliers team. Can somebody explain this?

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  90. <span><span>“</span></span>What I would like to know is why has Benitez won nothing with the team that he has built and is worth about double that of Houliers. Only Carra & Stevie remain from Houliers team. Rafa won both FA cup & CL with Houliers team. Can somebody explain this?

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  91. <span><span>“</span></span>What I would like to know is why has Benitez won nothing with the team that he has built and is worth about double that of Houliers. Only Carra & Stevie remain from Houliers team. Rafa won both FA cup & CL with Houliers team. Can somebody explain this?

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  92. hi,

    Have you ever written an article that actually sounds good about benitez?? i bet you even wrote a bad article about him when we beat real madrid 4-0 and beat man ure 4-1. To all liverpool please ask your self would you prefer being in the posion rafa has got us to in the last five years or be in the position we were in uder souness or evans or houlier? of course we're in a better position now! proof?? well at no point during the other threes era did the man ure fans be happy when we loose because we are now a genuine threat. Rafa had not predicted the form of serveral key players being off, add to that the injuries, if we had all the squad fully fit and we were getting these results i would be worried but we have not had all the squad fit, so lets give him time!! jamie go support man ure your no good to us!

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  93. Rafa, Guus will bail when he realizes the americans don't have the cash he needs to build a team.

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  94. Excellent and valid point, Max.

    The RCDNW brigade will just throw the usual excuses at this though:

    * The league has become amazingly more competitive in the last 3 years.
    * It's all the fault of the Owners
    * It wasn't Houllier's team; it was Benitez's genius
    * Benitez hasn't had enough money to spend
    * Net spend and blah blah blah

    And these are the same fans who claim that Houllier left a crap squad.  That is the biggest  myth of all.

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  95. Whether it's benitez or Dalglish in the hot seat the performances and results this season have not been good enough. Benitez is paid to get results and so far we are a mid table, non champions league playing football team who look shaky whenever we take to the pitch. Benitez doesn't help himself either when making diabolic decisions constantly this season. Playing Aurelio in midfield instead of dropping gerrard back is one of the poorest for me so far. Another would be bringing every single player back into the penalty area when defending a corner, even worse when it's at anfield. We have 11 players against 9 possibly 10 and still look a complete mess at set pieces. For me zonal marking was brown bread after we decided to leave Man City's tallest player (adebayor) all alone to score a free header from 6 yards, it's not working, it may have in the past but it's not no more. I wouldnt be too upset if we got rid of benitez, simply because i love the club more than i do him and at the minute his decisions are costing the club big time.

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  96. Don't forget his Real Madrid B/Real Caliste stats. They played in the Spanish 2nd Div.

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  97. But you're in the Rafa Can't Do Anything Right Brigade.

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  98. Other than this blip, Liverpool have steadily improved under rafa, so one segment of a campaign defines an entire career? Russias most basic goal was to reach the wc,and following that to challenge strongly. Rafas most basic goal is to qualify for the cl, I can only imagine the outcry should he fail in this. I certainly don't think your reaction would be that one campaign defines an entire career!

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  99. Madrid B is a reserve team, which is why those stats are not included (and if they were, bentez's overall percentages would be far worse, believe me!)

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  100. Don't think there's much to explain!

    Rafa won two cups with a team (largely) compiled by Houllier - he should be congratulated for that. We would not have won the 2005 CL with Houllier in charge.

    True Benitez is yet to win anything with his own squad, we came very close to the league last season and very close to 're-winning' the CL in seasons previous. You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who was suggesting we wouldn't progress further this season in the summer, unfotunetly a combination of bad luck, poor decision making and poor individual performances have cost us dear....I don't think that the situation we are in is solely down to Rafa....though of course the buck stops with him......which is why, if at the end of the season, when considering all the facors outside of his control, if we haven't progressed he should go.

    Personally, if we qualify for the CL and win either the FA or Europa cups I'd be happy for himto stay.

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  101. Can someone wake me up when Kanwar decides to call it a day with his incescant b1tching?

    One can only assume that he was jilted by someone who looks like Rafa and so he's now lashing out. 

    A sad, sad little man...

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  102. I'm not sure many reasonable fans claimed that Houllier had left a crap squad. In 2001/02 we finished 2nd and then drop down 5th the following season and then 4th. It was quite clear that the squad that Houllier had built wasn't up to scratch, not crap but not up to scratch. Instead of progressing we regressed. And if this happens under Rafa then he should go. Rafa finished 2nd last year and now half way through a season there are some fans calling for his head! Let's at least wait until the end of the season and see where we finish.  If we finish outside the top 4 then Rafa should go because that is a minimum requirement(especially in terms of the club's finances) but I personally don't think we will. In fact I still think we will finish third above Arsenal. This is not rose tinted glasses thinking from me; I believe that when we have a full fit team we are better than Arsenal, Spurs, Villa and Man City. For the first time since September we now how pretty much every one back fit and our quality will come through. I have absolutely no doubt about that.

    The other point that the anti-Rafa brigade keep making is that we won the CL and FA Cup with Houllier's squad. Utter rubbish. If you want to use that rationale then Mourinho won the league with Ranieri's squad, after all Ranieri took Chelsea to 2nd and a semi final of CL. Mourinho bought some players, Cech, Drogba, Robben, Carvalho but the majority of the squad was Ranieri's. I don't see Mourinho being discredited with winning the league. Lets go back a bit further; Arsene Wenger's first title winning team; nine of the first team squad were already at the club. So surely based on your rationale Arsene won the league with Rioch and Graham's team. Lets give Rafa some credit here; he won the CL with the players he had available at the time, just in the same way that Mourinho won the league with his squad and Arsene won the league with his squad. Its a very petty and silly argument but you hear it again and again from the anti-Rafa brigade.

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  103. The football being played at the moment by Liverpool is terrible against Blackburn we looked like the Wimbledon of old launching the ball in the air constanly having said that on the few occasions we tried to pass 10 yards we gave it away besides Gerrard maybe.Whether you are for Benitez or against he must be told this is not acceptable.He seems to think it is ok considering he is supposed to watch the games many times after.His favourites Kuyt and Lucas have never been and will never be good enough.Lucas is supposed to be a defensive midfielder he is not but i wonder how it is ok for a Liverpool manager to play 2 defensive midfielders anyways against the likes of Blackburn and Birmingham etc. (no disrespect).If he goes i am afraid the yanks will bring in someone who they can keep under their thumb however with signing a new contract in the summer and then not asking for money for a striker which everybody knew we needed i fear Benitez is there already 

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  104. Then why not include them?  It would further your obvious point and give you far more ammunition against that "brigade" and those pesky "apologists" 

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  105. Max can you actually show that Benitez's squad is worth twice as much as Rafa's?  I'd be very interested to see the list, mabye JK can help?

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  106. Aido your making a big assumtion there that Rafa did not ask for money for a striker.  Do you know this for a fact or is it just fact because we didnt get a striker?

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  107. We will never see that article on this site unless he can find a league somewhere in the world where it is not true. 

    I would like to see the net spend figures though because surely if you have to spend to buy then you are substituting quality not building on it but again you will never see that on here because net spend is the devil

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  108. If we're just going by Premier League titles then Blackburn Rovers are a more successful team than Liverpool. Perhaps LFC fans do feel more frustration at this than Rovers fans might but I know which team I'm happier to support. Sure its valid to say that you get nothing for second place but people need to be realistic about football. You can't win the league title every year, all you can do is focus on your own results and get as many wins as possible. If that happens to be good enough at the end of the year then you get the win.
    But if you don't, to just write off a season performance as a failure is crazy. It was Rafa's team that did so well last season, he deserves appropriate credit for that as much as he deserves appropriate criticism for this season so far. That was our best ever league performance in the PL era. Anyone who dismisses that as "it was only second place" has some serious short sightedness. The man has taken this club as high as it's been in 20 years and for me that's a great achievement. It proves to me that he's good enough to be in charge and that he deserves a chance to prove himself over a long period.
    This isn't being a Rafa "apologist", I just think it's a realistic point of view. Winning the premier league is very very hard, I just can't tolerate anyone who doesn't acknowledge that. If you polarise everything in black and white, winning the title or not, you're going to be dissapointed more often than not. How can you possibly even enjoy football in that way, you're constantly in a state of anxiety because you're too many points behind the leaders. Might as well just cancel your sky subscription and watch Coronation Street.
    Instead I think we need to approach this club in terms of seeing them play well and achieve good results. Aim high, always look to improve and don't write off an entire club because of a poor run of form. If Liverpool were to suddenly find form now and string together a fabulous record to end the season then we could still push the top two. How is that not something to savour and enjoy?

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  109. Since when is Lucas a defensive midfielder?

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  110. Based on the fact he never made a secret of  not been given enough money before he got his contract.As a player i do not know what Lucas is but it is generaly regarded that Benitez plays him as a defensive midfielder.There can be no way he could be considered any use going forward and one pass to Ngog when the mancs are attacking in the 95 min is not good enough for this stage of the season having played so many games

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  111. I considered it, but my sense of fairness wouldn't allow it. The mere fact that I didn't include stats that could place Rafa in a bad light should tell you something about me; and it makes a mockery of those who say I'm anti-benitez. If I was, I would've included them.
    All the criticisms I make of benitez are fair; they may be made vociferously, and my personal belief that benitez is not the long term solution may shine through in my posts, but these things don't change the fact that the criticism is fair.
    Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

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