I’ve been arguing for months that Rafa Benitez’s poor man-management of Xabi Alonso is the main reason the midfielder decided to leave the club. Well, Alonso himself has now confirmed this in a new interview.
In the interview with Guillem Balague, Alonso was asked about his relationship with Benitez, to which he responded:
"There have been a lot of rumours but as I`ve said before, it was a professional relationship. I have always tried to do what he asked me to do on the pitch. When the birth of my child happened, I had to take a decision to be with my family because it was an important moment.
"Last summer when the club proposed that I had to be sold to buy new players it was a difficult moment and decision to accept; but I accepted it as a professional. That moment changed my mind, from that moment it was time for a change".
Benitez's ‘idea’ to replace Alonso with Barry was strange to say the least, and he pursued the player with barely concealed zeal and absolutely no respect or consideration for a player who had been a consummate professional for Liverpool.
Benitez’s actions were compounded by Steven Gerrard - his supposed 'team' mate, who rubbed salt in the wounds with his embarrassing public tapping-up of Barry.
Who can blame Alonso for wanting to leave? It’s clear that Benitez didn’t want him and its clear that if given the chance, Benitez would’ve dumped him. On top of that, Benitez showed Alonso no empathy of understanding at all over the birt of his child, which clearly added to Alonso’s discontent.
Liverpool is clearly the loser in this situation. Alonso didn’t need to leave; if Benitez had treated him better then perhaps he’d still be at the club. It’s great that a big profit was made on the player but what is more important - making a profit and regressing from the previous season or keeping the player and potentially winning the league?
I know which option I would choose.
In the interview with Guillem Balague, Alonso was asked about his relationship with Benitez, to which he responded:
"There have been a lot of rumours but as I`ve said before, it was a professional relationship. I have always tried to do what he asked me to do on the pitch. When the birth of my child happened, I had to take a decision to be with my family because it was an important moment.
"Last summer when the club proposed that I had to be sold to buy new players it was a difficult moment and decision to accept; but I accepted it as a professional. That moment changed my mind, from that moment it was time for a change".
Benitez's ‘idea’ to replace Alonso with Barry was strange to say the least, and he pursued the player with barely concealed zeal and absolutely no respect or consideration for a player who had been a consummate professional for Liverpool.
Benitez’s actions were compounded by Steven Gerrard - his supposed 'team' mate, who rubbed salt in the wounds with his embarrassing public tapping-up of Barry.
Who can blame Alonso for wanting to leave? It’s clear that Benitez didn’t want him and its clear that if given the chance, Benitez would’ve dumped him. On top of that, Benitez showed Alonso no empathy of understanding at all over the birt of his child, which clearly added to Alonso’s discontent.
Liverpool is clearly the loser in this situation. Alonso didn’t need to leave; if Benitez had treated him better then perhaps he’d still be at the club. It’s great that a big profit was made on the player but what is more important - making a profit and regressing from the previous season or keeping the player and potentially winning the league?
I know which option I would choose.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI've enjoyed reading your articles and I think this is good site for thoughtful football discussion. I'm not sure I agree that Xabi was forced out though of Liverpool though. Putting last season to one side the season before that Xabi was poor (this may well be due to the birth of his child) and it was clear that Benitez was thinking that a change was needed and I can see Benitez's reasonsing for wanting Barry given his versality and the fact that he was a proven premiership player. I agree that Benitez is not a player manger, even Gerrard has commented about Benitez lack of praise when he plays well! but the fact is that Xabi needed a bit of a kick up the arse and who is to say that even if Benitez had not pursued Barry that Alonso would have turned down Real Madrid?
Benitez's real mistake was not getting Barry the moment the transfer window opened before he sold Alonso.
It's clear that we need to sell players to buy. That's not Benitez' fault, that's the fault of the owners.
ReplyDeleteIf we hadn't have sold Alonso this summer we probably would have had to sell another first team player. As he wanted to go it worked out OK.
What worries me is that next season we'll need to sell another first tea player to cover incoming transfers.
Enough already Jaimie! I subscribe to many of your views but this "I told you so" article is really a bit over the top...
ReplyDeleteRafa has made many mistakes, this could be the one of the worst, but he is a mortal after all... there were many reasons for his choosing Barry over Alonso (Alonso having a couple of off-seasons, Barry being English, etc). Rafa never publicly talked up Barry over Alonso (That was Gerrard and he is to be rightly condemned for it).
If I remember aright, Rafa only once mentioned about Barry in public and that too in his inscrutable way... I'll give him that much credit. Whatever may have happened behind the scenes (poor man-management as you say) Rafa never behaved wrongly in public and as Alonso himself testified, the relationship was professional.
You yourself often say that in football one has room for sentiment (I wonder :-P ), Now you are complaining about Rafa not showing enough attachment to Alonso. Alonso should look ahead and so should we.
I think you forget to realise whats best for Alonso may not be whats best for liverpool's 10 other first teanm players, management and fans..A decision to replace a then underperfoming Alonso saw him vastly improve his form to confirm his undoubted quality..I do not have statistical proof but i seem to notice on average non-British players stay in the premiership about the 5years he was here on average..He may have started to feel homesick and Arbeloa's departure may support this view after a few years..I hasten to say there is exceptions to this view as some stay here very long and I hope Pepe Reina & Torres stay longer.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool finished 4 points behind United last season with their biggest points total for years. Alonso was a huge part of this success. Do you honestly think Gareth Barry would or could do better? I personally do not think so. Furthermore, last season's team was a premiership winning team; the players were used to each other and the system and everything was clicking. Now the team has taken a step backwards because the well-oiled unit has been broken up. We've already seen evidence of the regression this season, and it will get worse before it gets better.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool finished 4 points behind United last season with their biggest points total for years. Alonso was a huge part of this success. Do you honestly think Gareth Barry would or could do better? I personally do not think so. Furthermore, last season's team was a premiership winning team; the players were used to each other and the system and everything was clicking. Now the team has taken a step backwards because the well-oiled unit has been broken up. We've already seen evidence of the regression this season, and it will get worse before it gets better.
ReplyDeleteActually, it was Alonso that forced Benitez into selling him, when he played utter gash for 3 seasons out of 5!
ReplyDeleteRafa's the big bad wolf, going after a midfielder that has actually performed consistently, which upset Alonso and made him turn in a superb season last year. Newsflash, Jaimie: if it takes something like this to make Alonso give 100% he wanted turfing out a damn sight sooner than this summer. He should give his all every match he plays, not just the ones where he feels he's been offended.
Goodbye and good riddance.
Yes this is complete bollox.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool fans need to get behind rather and vent their anger at the real enemy. Those scummy carpet bagger yank twats. At the moment our only chance of staying in the big 4 is keeping Rafa, who is going to do a better job.
Jurgen Klinsmann?
I think it's kinda obvious, but if it wasn't for Rafa Alonso would have probably never worn the red shirt, just thought I would say it.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting Jamie that you say it was Rafa when the quote clearly states that "the club" was suggesting he could be sold. Are you purposely mis-quoting or just failing to see the details that don't back you up in your argument? Alonso goes out of his way to suggest that he maintained a professional relationship and has great respect for his former manager.
ReplyDeleteIt's all very well to see, with hindsight, that Alonso was not going to be happy with that situation, but Rafa was doing what he felt was right for the club at that time. If you need any indiciation of this, consider that we couldn't even get 15 million for the player that summer and in the end we got twice that amount. No one could have known how Alonso would have responded the next year, not you, not us, not Rafa. Based on the player's form and what Rafa saw as the future of the club, Gareth Barry was the best option for us. Alsono's form was right down. If you can conclude that keeping him here was going to enhance out title chances, surely even you can see that in those previous seasons it was his poor form that contributed to us not even being able to compete.
You need to face some facts: the actions of club that summer led directly to us scoring our highest PL points total ever, topping the league in scoring and missing out on the title by 6 points. That's our best performance in 20 years, the second best also being under Benitez. Alonso produced his best form so exactly what did Rafa do wrong? OK, so we've lost Alonso, but you don't yet have any evidecne that this is going to cost us dearly. I can't see Alonso having any influence on our terrible defensive problems so far. Our midfield has been great, Lucas is playing well, Mascherano has stepped up another gear, Johnson has been brilliant ... where exactly does losing Alonso fit into any of this?
Fraggs - Alonso is not going to come out in public and directly criticise benitez, is he? I think it's clear by 'club' he means the manager. Who's decision was it to try and sell Alonso - Benitez or the club's? And when we say club, we're basically talking about Hicks, Gillett, and at the time, Parry.
ReplyDeleteIt is beyond dispute that Benitez wanted to sell him, not Hicks, Gillett and Parry, is it not? Alonso is just being diplomatic in his interview.
Our midfield has been great? Surely you jest? In three of the four games so far this season (not the Stoke game) our midfield has pretty much lost the battle in terms of retaining posession and creating fluid movement up the pitch. Alonso's calming influence and ability to play the simple pass and link defence and attack is sorely missing, as is his ability to retain possession. Furthermore, Alonso was a huge part of the club achieving its biggest PL points total.
Alonso's form between 2007 and 2008 was not the best but Benitez's mismanagement of the player is a lot to do with that. There was the injury he had ane being rusged back from it, only to be injured again; Several instances of unwarranted public criticism; the baby incident. benitez demotivated the player, which had a knock on effect on his performance on the pitch.
There is, IMO, a direct correlation between Liverpool's comparatively poor form so far this season and the loss of Alonso, and I've given m reasons several times over in different articles/comments.
I uess we'll see over the course of the season how much we do actually miss Alonso, but for now, I do not think it can be disputed that Benitez is directly responsible for one of our best players wanting to leave.
Alonso was not "forced out". A year ago Rafa wanted to improve the team but had a limited budget. Alonso himself had not had a good season ( a fact a lot of people seem to forget all to easily). Rafa thought he could move Alonso on, replace him with a better player for less money and use the extra revenue to strengthen elsewhere. It did not happen because the purchase could not be made and the bids for Alonso were not enough.
ReplyDeleteThis shows that Rafa was trying all he could to make the squad as good as he can with a budget lower than the other members of the big 4 (and now Man City). In fact at present Sunderland, Spurs and Villa appear to be outspending us and even Stoke and Hull seem to be doing more in the market than us.
Alonso was easy on the eye but I can recall very few occassions where I felt a pass or a movement really opened up opponents. With Gerrard and Torres I can recall many of those occassions. Already this season Johnson has shown that he can make a difference in tight games. Let's hope we are feeling the same after Aqulani has played four or five matches.
Rafa has certainly screwed up on several of his purchases but I feel that his pragmatic and highly organised approach is probably what will be needed if all our profits are to be spent on bank interest payments and not players. Rafa may not suit everybody but the alternatives may be even less palatable.
It's well known that Rafa fell out with Alonso when the player chose the birth of his child over playing (or bench warming) during a CL game a few years ago. Until then Alonso had been know (by the other players) as "The Prefect" as he was teacher's pet and was almost made captain when he first arrived. As Xabi realised that he was better off making friends with his team mates he became distanced from Benitez and the rot set in.
ReplyDeleteThere is no doubt that Gareth Barry is a very good player and that Rafa seriously cocked up by missing out on him this summer. His plan was to have Aquilani as a back up for Stevie Gerrard with Barry and Mascherano playing deeper.
The main problems we have at the moment are more to do with the serious deterioration in Jamie Carragher's game rather than the sale of Alonso although as I just mentioned the failure to sign Barry was Rafa's biggest mistake.
Later this season you will see Gerrard dropping into the old Alonso role and Aquilani playing behind Torres.
On a final point, Lucas is garbage - don't be fooled by a few pre-season games and a match against Stoke City.
This really is over the top Jamie..
ReplyDeleteIt's not as if Rafa and xabi were a couple, and then rafa decided to chat up another man in public forcing Xabi to watch. Xabi were not Rafas lover, he's just a (really good) player, and as a player you are not untouchable, the club has a right to change their priorities, just as a player has the right to let his contract run down or demand a transfer. Fans get insulted, like in the Owen case, but players and clubs don't, or at least shouldn't be. It's work, it's business, it not a lifelong relationship (like being a fan)
I'm sure Rafa would have like to keep his pursuit of Barry much more low key than it turned out, but then O'neil went all biblical about it. That he opted to try and offload Xabi was a business deicition, probably more than a footballing one, as I would think Rafa would have liked to have both if he could afford it.
I don't believe that Xabi felt badly treated by Rafa, sure he didn't feel as wanted as he would have liked to, but that's the football business and as a player you have to live with that. Now when he decided to leave it was a footballing, a personal and definately a business descition on his part; He went back to his native country, got to play for one of the most famous clubs in the world, and he got paid LOT more money than he would have if he stayed.
If he really wanted to leave Liverpool just because Rafa "hurt his little feelings" then one would assume he would have gone anywhere playing for anyone right? Wolfburg? Napoli? Auxerre? Mallorca? (I now these clubs couldn't afford him) could you see him WANTING to leave for such clubs? I don't think so. Xabi left because he had a better option available, last summers events never had anything but a small part in his decision. And we got a great price for him. It's the owners who's holding this club back by not letting Rafa use this money to strenghten our team!
I also find it puzzling that you use last seasons performance as a tool to question Rafas decisons.. Even though Xabi was a really important piece in the red machine last season, do you really think that he was more important for Liverpool than Rafa were? What makes you fit to second guess the managers decisions? Who's to say that we wouldn't have 5 points more last season with Barry in the team.
I'm not saying I believe we would, I'm just trying to illustrate the flaws in the argument...
I think Jamie Kanwar is the gayest guy in the world and loves to suck big cocks!!
ReplyDeletealonso had a great season last year but before that he was average. maybe without benitez forcing the issue a year ago alonso would of ploded on like he did the previous season.
ReplyDeletewe got a great season from him, maybe thats good man management.
Right, so when it suits you the direct quote is fine but now you want us to say that Alonso is only being diplomatic? Either we take what he says literally or we interpret, you need to make a decision on that. You can't pick out certain parts of his quotes and say that they are 100% accurate and then point to other parts and say that he's only being diplomatic, that's absurd. How are we to belive anything he says? Maybe he's not saying plenty of other things in trying to diplomatic, so where does that leave us?
ReplyDeleteTo say that it's beyond dispute that Benitez wanted to sell him, I think now you're just being lazy and presumtuous. I suspect that Rafa wanted to have both Barry AND Alonso in his team, but in order to raise funds he would have to sell someone. Remember that Barry can play many positions including left wing and behind the strikers. So why would Rafa ever decide to just offload a player if he wasn't told to do so? And who would tell him? Who else but Parry, Hicks and Gillet? Given that Alonso clearly said "the club" and we know that Rafa did not have complete control over his budget and the players he got, there is no way that it's "beyond dispute". After all, Rafa wanted Barry but didn't get him. If Rafa was truly in complete control then why didn't it hapen?
As for our midfield this season ... that's always going to be a question of opinion for each of us. While the first half against Spurs was terrible, I personally point to the number of shots on goal we have had in all the subsequent minutes as a clear indication that there is nothing wrong with the combination of Mascherano and Lucas. Our problem is giving up goals, not scoring them. And you're forgetting that Alonso was playing in our pre-season where our form was also pretty bad. Our problems against Athletico were not in midfield so how do explain that?
I think in the end this is all pretty simple. Rafa saw a player who was down on form and, when pressed for cash, indicated to Parry and co that if a player was to be sold as sacrifice then Alonso would be it. I think most Liverpool fans will point out that, at the time, this was a pretty good decision. Is he therefore "responsible" for Alonso leaving? Partially, yes, but at the same time you have to see that it is ultimately Alonso's decision. He was never forced to do anything and if being offered for sale is such a devastating impact on his decision making then it's still his reaction, his decision, not anyone elses. We can't coddle these players, treat them like gods and pander to their ego all the time. That's part of Rafa's way of operating. If the player does not want to stay then we don't want them, they don't have the right heart or the right attitude. To somehow suggest that it's Rafa's "fault" for trying to improve the team ... I just don't get it. This is professional football and you seem to be holding Alonso's feelings as being more important that the good of the club.
Yeah, what he said. We're talking about these people like they're children or over-emotional relationships. It's football, not the Days of Our Lives. If Alonso ultimately left only because it was suggested to him that he might be sold after a season of poor form then I would suggest that it's his own emotional state and not the actions of his manager that are responsible. I suspect the reality, though, is nothing like what Jamie is supposing.
ReplyDeleteJaime, From the negative title alone I knew it had to be a article by you, Xabi was with us for 5 years, and of those 5 he only had to outstanding seasons, his 1st and last, the other three were mediocre, in xabi's defence he had 2 bad injuries in 2 of the 3 bad seasons. However 2 seasons ago we were unable to sell him for 15M WHY, because his performances didnot warrant the fee, Real turned him down FFS, Rafa was right to try and sell him because he wasn't performing
ReplyDeleteLast season he was amazing and IMO lfc's best player, but he wanted to go, as soon as a player, no matter how good does not want to play for us anymore then he has to go ,Rafa also doubled his money by getting £30m from madrid. (As a side note very glad we got rid of Parry because he lacked the competence to acquire such a fee) and would have crumbled at madrids first offer.
We all know that rafa needs to improve his man mgt skills, but he will never be pally with his players, and i think he is right to keep that distance betweem manager and player, my mind springs back to the Steve Mclaren talking about 'Stevie G and JT etc in his interviews, it made me nauseous, and reminded me of my school days, and the over friendly teacher who wanted to be liked, and be one of the lads,
I digress in summation, put more though in some positive articles and less of the constant negative articles,
I echo some of the points here. You can interpret it as 'poor man management' but there are two arguments against this 'theory'.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, as pointed out, Alonso didn't have the best of times for three of the seasons he was at Anfield. This presumably led to Rafa identifying he wanted more mobility in midfield (i.e. Aquilani!!). Who is to say Alonso would have played to the same level this season? Hindsight and speculation are wonderful, but they don't win you football matches.
Second, we did actually draw some games with Alonso in the team.
And as for Mr Kanwar's point about the team regressing. Well, the players are basically the same bar Alonso. Sometimes it is really difficult to start a season the way you ended the last - and also remember we had one of our finest results with Lucas in the team.
I'm pleased the way things have turned out though, Aquilani is for the next few years, Barry would have been ok but he's getting no younger.
What is the origin of this ridiculous myth thst seems to have sprung up about Alonso, namely the contention that he was crap for 2-3 prior to last season?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the evidence for this? Why do people think this? please provide examples and proper reasoning for this accusation instead of just stating it as if it's gospel.
It sounds to me like media myth propogated by the fans, who use it as a stick with which to beat Alonso. In my view, it's not true in the slightest, but I'm not the one who keeps saying it.
So - I challenge anyone on this thread (that's basically everyone!) to explain why he was crap for 2-3 years and provide concrete examples of this.
What is the origin of this spurious myth thst seems to have sprung up about Alonso, namely the contention that he was crap for 2-3 years prior to last season?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the evidence for this? Why do people think this? Please provide examples and proper reasoning for this accusation instead of just stating it as if it's gospel.
It sounds to me like media myth propogated by Anti-Alonso Benitez apologists. In my view, it's not true in the slightest, but I'm not the one who keeps saying it.
So - I challenge anyone on this thread (that's basically everyone!) to explain why he was crap for 2-3 years and provide concrete examples of this.
okay jamie, simple question:
ReplyDeletesince Rafa was so wrong to so some sympathy towards Xabi - by letting him do what was best for his family at the expense of the club, and by coddling him and keeping him at the club when he was underperforming - surely you agree that, in the same mindset, Rafa should do the following:
1. keep Lucas, Voronin, Babel, and all the other supposed "deadweight" players who "aren't performing to the requisite level" and not even countenance selling them, as its just plain mean to their precious egos....
2. sell mascherano to barca in jan or next year, as his wife is fed up with liverpool city and his family want to go to a spanish speaking town....
or have you already contradicted yourself to no end with previous posts slagging Rafa's decisions in this regard?
and to think i thought you had turned a corner recently, and was on the way to actually giving balanced critique of our club.....
you need to get off this one mate. xabi was poor for THREE STRAIGHT YEARS....babel, lucas, and voronin haven't even played regularly for half that time and people (yourself included, based on your previous articles) are ready to see the back of them. if gerrard was shite for three straight years i would sell him myself, and back rafa to the hilt if he were to do the same.
there's only room for sentimentality when the player is pulling up trees for you, or at the very least doing what the manager asks of him.
xabi didn't - for three years - so for me he should not be surprised that the manager is thinking of replacing him with an english international that gets on with players already in teh team, and has played at a consistent level for years, and offers more versatility in positions that xabi simply could not fill.
please pull the wool from your own eyes and see the truth of the matter, and quit chopping down forests to find a branch to whip Rafa with....
<span style="cursor: pointer;">ikhilioju - you're another who is spouting unfounded stuff about Alonso. You stae that he was 'poor for three straight years'. Well, instead of parroating what the media say and/or what other fans say, why don't you explain WHY he allegedly so crap for three years and PROVIDE EXAMPLES of his apparent crapness.</span>
ReplyDeleteYour argument is based upon the contention that Alonso was 'poor' - without that, you have no argument. So, please explain why you think Alonso was poor for three years.
And the idea that Alonso was 'coddled' by Benitez is just ridiculous.
No not only the Anti-Alonso Benitez apologists, most of the big clubs managers seemed to be thinking the same last season. The fact that no-one came in for him even tho we wanted to sell him is sufficient proof about his lack of form at the time in my eyes.
ReplyDelete<span style="cursor: pointer;">ikhilioju - you're another person spouting unfounded stuff about Alonso. You state that he was 'poor for three straight years'. Well, instead of parroting what the media say and/or what other fans say, why don't you explain WHY he allegedly so crap for three years and PROVIDE EXAMPLES of his apparent poor form.</span>
ReplyDeleteAnd the idea that Alonso was 'coddled' by Benitez is just ridiculous.
Right - so please tell me how you know that 'no-one came in for him'. Are you aware of all the private enquiries made by clubs behind closed doors? Alonso didn't want to leave - don't you think that had a lot to do with him not leaving? Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI could return the same question to you. Are you aware Xabi didn't want to leave?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the way he was waxing lyrical about Juventus when they were linked to him last season clearly suggest not. Remember that?
"We’ll see what will happen with Juve. It’s difficult to say today. I spent four fantastic years at Liverpool, but I have to admit that I have always been fascinated by Italian football.
"However, it’s too soon to talk about the future," Alonso added. "In short: we’ll see.
"Juve are one of the biggest teams in Europe, perhaps the biggest in Italy. They have very many fans not only in Italy but all over the world.
"In short: a great club."
No matter how you try to spin that, this is clearly not a player that was desperate to stay. And, the fact that Juventus admitted they weren't ready to meet our selling price for him last tells the whole story in my eyes.
And on the question of WHY Alonso was apparently poor for three years, we have, as expected....DEAFENING SILENCE! :-P
ReplyDeleteAt the time those comments were made, Benitez was trying his best to flog Alonso and buy Barry. Benitez had made it clear he didn't want Alonso, so what was he supposed to do in that situation? How would you feel if your manager showed such public disdaid for you? At the time, I imagine Alonso was getting used to the idea of leaving, and since it was clear Benitez wanted him out, what was wrong with him taling about Juve? Besides, he was responding to direct questions when he made those quotes; it's not like he made some unilateral statement.
ReplyDeleteOK, how about you do the same: provide us with some evidence that having Alonso in the team last season was instrumental to us doing so well? I think you'll find that we're just expressing our views. Alonso had an outstanding first season and then simply tailed off. That's our view as Liverpool fans and we've developed it by watching him, on the pitch, week after week. It's a bit weak that you jump on this as some kind of flawed argument that we've just picked up from media reports. We saw him play for all those years, why would we have to use someone else's views on the matter?
ReplyDeleteBut if you want something concrete ... the most damning evidence comes in his price. When we tried to sell him we couldn't even get 15 million. This year we get 30 million. That indicates that in his previous season Alonso didn't play so well because no team in world football was willing to pay good money for him. As for the seasons before that ... I'm not really that concerned. I certainly think he wasn't playing at his best and why does it matter? Rafa made his decision based on Alonso's form AT THE TIME and, using nothing more than his market value, it's clear that it was suffering.
Don't be so childish Jamie, people have given you concrete examples, you've just ignored them. We offered Alonso up for sale and no one was willing to pay the price, isn't that a significant indication of his poor form?
ReplyDeleteI cannot provide specific examples of seasons 06-08 but I do remember seeing many games (I missed a handful in the last 4 years) where I thought he got caught on the ball a lot - there was some belief from fellow supporters that he could be, at times, too slow on the ball. I'm not saying he was bad, but he certainly upped his game last season compared to the previous three. With this in mind, we could assume we have sold a player who may have had his peak last season for a healthy profit.
ReplyDeleteThe reason Rafa wanted Barry was that he thought Barry offered more mobility next to Masca I presume, that is why I am pleased we got Aquilani rather than Barry.
Managers 'force' players out of clubs all the time and sometimes players (Lescott!) force a move themselves - it will always happen, its not new and certainly not particular to Rafa. I see no reason to start having a go at Rafa for making a £20M profit and buying a younger player with the cash.
If only I had the time to spend hours going through youtube looking at old match clips I could provide some evidence to show Alonso was better last season than the 3 before.....
Some of these comments don't make sense. People saying ' We need to sell to buy players!!' what does that mean?? Some supporters have no idea. If your going to sell players sell the dead weight not your stars. So you sell your world class players and buy what?? Xabi was right to go, he was treated poorly by Benitez. Sell Babel keep Sami, instead we buy an injured player and a Greek who couldn't make the grade in Scotland.
ReplyDeletehaha if you seriously believe this, you need some help boy. You wanted concrete examples, I think I've given one. But if you know beforehand that you are going to ignore people's points, I would suggest that you don't ask questions in the first place. The majority of lfc supporters think Alonso's form was below par, but eh that doesn't matter, Mr Kanwar says it's a myth so it must be so.
ReplyDeleteBtw, just took a look at a few of the other articles, and as much as I'm concerned, this must be the worst "Liverpool" website around. So, I'ld suggest you don't bother replying to this as there's no chance you'll see me on this site again. I don't think our definition of supporter is quite the same. But, hehe knowing your reputation as wind-up merchant, I'm sure you won't be able to restrain yourself from replying even tho you know I'm out. Just watch this space lads!!!
TMAC - your comments don't make sense. Sami was offered a player-coach deal but wanted to play more frequently for a couple of years which is fair enough. And to slag off a new player after one game is apalling especially as he dealt with Kevin Davies very well (not forgetting Davies is the worse fouler in the prem).
ReplyDeleteThe key to management is not just keeping your top players - its about replacling them at the right time. Dalglish for Keegan, Aldridge for Rush, Torres for Crouch! The boss obviously felt he wanted a diffferent approach in his midfield so who are we to argue. Look at the outcry when Beckham left Utd - but it was the right time.
You also need to see that buying an injured player (he did have a medical !) is for the long term not the first 8 games.
Are you not aware that we need to sell to buy. That is what our club has become thanks to the yank planks. Even the smaller clubs have a greater net outlay than us.
"<span>Benitez's ‘idea’ to replace Alonso with Barry was cretinous to say the least"</span>
ReplyDeleteI love this line. It shows that for all the smoke and mirrors Jaimie employs, it's really all about his belief that he knows better than Rafa. He talks about finding evidence, he talks about reasoned discussion, but this is just him calling Rafa a cretin.
Is Jaimie right to say this? You only have to look at the figures to see why Rafa thought Barry might improve the team.
Played (All Comps) Goals Assists
Season 07/08 XA 23 GB 39 XA 2 GB 9 XA 2 GB 11
Season 06/07 XA 49 GB 39 XA 5 GB 9 XA 1 GB 4
Season 05/06 XA 48 GB 42 XA 5 GB 6 XA 7 GB 3
Barry had been consistenly available (as we know from Jaimie's comments about Aquilani, this is an important factor) and in most cases had made a greater attacking contribution to his team than Alonso.
I called Rafa's IDEA 'cretinous' - NOT Rafa himself. There is a difference. Just because someone has a cretinous idea doesn't make them a cretin. And yes, I believe the idea to replace Alonso with Barry was wrong.
ReplyDeleteJust look at what happens when Alonso is on top his game - he propels the team (along with everyone else) to Liverpools greatest premiership points tally.
If Benitez had not *repeatedly* alienated Alonso he (probably) would not have moved on. Then the team would be building upon last season's performance instead of struggling to keep our heads above water.
He was indeed on top of his game. So were Kuyt and Yossi. Absolutely outstanding both of them from January onwards. Lucas has shown that he can cut the mustard in big games and Xabi showed that he wasnt a difference maker against park the bus teams. Hence the signing of Aquilani.
ReplyDeleteAnd when you say *repeatedly* what do you mean by this exactly? I hope you've got lots of examples, just like you have *repeatedly* asked for people to give examples of Xabis poor form. Right?
Examples of Benitez alienating Alonso:
ReplyDelete1. Rushing him back from his metatarsal injury after 5 weeks, as a result of which he got injured again and was out for a further weeks.
2. Publicly criticising Alonso only a week or so after he made his comeback from injury.
3. being completely inconsiderate over the birth of his child (Alonso admited this in a recent interview)
4. Very publicly trying to replace Alonso with gareth barry last season, to the extent that a war of words erupted between benitez and MON. Tantamount to a public vote of 'no confidence'.
5. Trying to turn Alonso into a defensive mid and curtailing his natural game.
All of this is examined in this article ----->>>>
"<span>when judging a player’s creative output, we can only work with the available facts and figures, and that means goals, assists..."</span>
ReplyDeleteYour own words, used to challenge Riise's claims about Aquilani, in another article in your campaign against the Alonso sale. Yet now you seem to be suggesting they don't apply when the outcome is not to your liking. i.e. Barry is shown to be a better player than Alonso.
I had a bet with myself that you would nit-pick over the difference between the "idea" being cretinous, or the "person with the idea". If you say the idea is cretinous, you imply that the person who came up with it shares those characteristics. Either way, it doesn't change the fact you are making a judgment without facts and figures to back it up. The numbers I presented suggest your judgment is flawed.
As for the highest Premiership points tally, that's irrelevant to the discussion; it happened after the event. Benitez tried to sign Barry a year ago. It was at that point Alonso decided he wanted to leave - that's the focal point of your article. Looking at the figures for the THREE YEARS prior to the event suggest Benitez had every reason to believe that Barry would add something to the team.
It is not nitpicking, it is fact: I called benitez's IDEA cretinous, not the man. But of course, it suits your argument to suggest I was calling HIM a cretin, which is not true at all.
ReplyDeleteand how have I suggested that Barry's stats don't aplly? i haven't even addressed that point yet so you're jumping the gun. I will respond to that point when I've checked your figures and done my own research 8-)
This is a football website, not the Office of National Statistics. ;-) Those primitive figures should be perfectly good enough for the purpose of the discussion. They come from Soccernet, after all.
ReplyDeleteIt’s interesting how people read/hear what Xabi said and reach differing conclusions. The way i see it, Xabi had had two fairly average seasons and had broken his metatarsal twice in the season before we tried to buy Barry. Xabi had only played 16 games for us that season. It seems that Rafa tried to find a replacement in Barry for a player who had played very little in the last season. Do people really see a problem in that? Rafa saw an area where we had a weakness and tried to remedy it. The fact that the Barry transfer didn’t happen makes the whole situation seem worse as now we have neither, but I don't think this is an example of poor man management here, nor was it a bad decision. Barry wanted to come to us, it was Villa playing hardball. As much as I love Xabi, that season he was injured for most of it and an injured player is no good to us no matter how good he is.
ReplyDeleteThat season, 2007/08, we dropped back to fourth after two years at 3rd. It shows me that there was a weak link in the team and that was the lack of a good holding midfielder a la Alonso. However because he'd only played 16 games maybe Rafa decided to he needed someone else.
What is also interesting is that Xabi decided then that he wanted to leave. He then had his best season for us since he joined us. Its seems to me that he reason he had his best season for us was because he wanted to put himself in the shop window. It seems to me that he thought about himself before the rest of the team showing what he was capable off with the aim to leave.
By the way these "i told you so" arguments are becoming pretty childish. Its like you need validation which is a little pathetic.
Curtailing his natural game??! This has to be one of the most idiotic statements you have ever made. Xabi joined us as someone very people had heard off, and he left us as one of the best midfielders in Europe. Yes. I see what you mean, Rafa has definitely been a bad thing for his career.
ReplyDeleteYes - curtailing his natural game. There was a period prior to Mascherano joining that Benitez tried to turn Alonso into a defensive midfielder. Stevie was playing on the right/and or a more advanced role and Alonso was playing the Masch role. Even when Sissoko arrived, Alonso was staying back whilst he went forward! And, even when Mascherano arrived, there were games where Masch was playing higher up the field than Alonso. Ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteWell, you're showing your ignorance right away. Rafa was TOLD that in order to fund player purchases he would have to sell. He said as much in interviews. How does that not make sense? Sami was let go because we wouldn't give him enough games, not because of the money. Xabi was offered to be sold because he was the only one who could fetch the kind of money needed and because he had produced a sub-par season. Finally, our new defender was instrumental in his spell in the SPL and was more than capable of holding down a spot. He CHOSE to not renew his contract in the hope that he could find a spot in a bigger league and after trying twice to do this he ultimately lost his place.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I remember Alonso and Masca used to take turns being higher up the pitch.
ReplyDeleteThe more I read the more I think the author is thinking they know better than the boss. Words DO NOT WIN FOOTBALL MATCHES.
Aw comeon lads....as fun as it is to see Jamie's "critical analysis" fall to the simplest scrutiny, we need to show him due respect. After all, like the esteemed Jamie Redknapp, ;amie Kanwar "has never managed a team that has lost a game...."
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I'm not to sure about ignorance, but maybe not so easily accepting of the way Rafa handles things. It feels sometimes that we are still living on Istanbul, in which games like that a truly one offs in history. I think like most are aware and if being honest, know that Rafa's handling of Xabi wasn't great, we all know there was a few incidents between them both. I guess i'm not fully understanding of how things are gone about, what actual players you sell to fund what players. I even think at times that his handling of Sami wasn't great, but they are just my views, and i hope the big Greek does do the job, but there again you hear different things from Glasgow Ranger fans on his time their. Ahh the joys of fans and their armchair views!! I'm meaning me also BTW. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm not to sure about ignorance, but maybe not so easily accepting of the way Rafa handles things. I think like most are aware and if being honest, know that Rafa's handling of Xabi wasn't great, we all know there was a few incidents between them both. I guess i'm not fully understanding of how things are gone about, what actual players you sell and what actual players you buy. I even think at times that his handling of Sami wasn't great, but they are just my views, and i hope the big Greek does do the job, but there again you hear different things from Glasgow Ranger fans on his time their. Ahh the joys of fans and there armchair views!! I'm meaning me also BTW. :)
ReplyDeleteAw comeon lads....as fun as it is to see Jamie's "critical analysis" fall to the simplest scrutiny, we need to show him due respect. After all, like the esteemed Jamie Redknapp, ;amie Kanwar "has never managed a team that has lost a game...."
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Alonso has always played deep and there has always been a defensive element to his game. Please tell me when he used to play further forward? When he first joined it was Alonso and Gerrard in the middle. Alonso was always the one who sat back, whilst Gerrard was more the attacking CM. Then Gerrard was moved to the right, which in hindsight seems like a brilliant move from Rafa. Had he not moved to that position making him much more attacking minded he may not have excelled in the positon he is now behind Torres. Anyway, I digressed slightly. And recently it was him and Masch sat in the middle; both had their jobs to do and both entailed a defensive element. Then we sold him on for £30m playing in that position after he'd had one his best seasons. So how has Rafa curtailed his natural game?
ReplyDeleteAlonso has become synonymous with the "quarterback" role, a description that I don't like but seems to encapsulate his role perfectly. He basically sits back, passes the ball, he very rarely ventured forward, and hardly ever into the box. When you sit back you have to defend too. Rafa didn't make him do this. It was his natural game to do so. Its why Real have now bought him becaus ethat was teh exact tyoe of player they needed. Can you seriously not see this? If you can't I'm not sure you know what you are talking about.
Alonso has always played deep and there has always been a defensive element to his game. Please tell me when he used to play further forward? When he first joined it was Alonso and Gerrard in the middle. Alonso was always the one who sat back, whilst Gerrard was more the attacking CM. Then Gerrard was moved to the right, which in hindsight seems like a brilliant move from Rafa. Had he not moved to that position making him much more attacking minded he may not have excelled in the positon he is now behind Torres. Anyway, I digressed slightly. And recently it was him and Masch sat in the middle; both had their jobs to do and both entailed a defensive element. Then we sold him on for £30m playing in that position after he'd had one his best seasons. So how has Rafa curtailed his natural game?
ReplyDeleteAlonso has become synonymous with the "quarterback" role, a description that I don't like but seems to encapsulate his role perfectly. He basically sits back, passes the ball, he very rarely ventured forward, and hardly ever into the box. When you sit back you have to defend too. Rafa didn't make him do this. It was his natural game to do so. Its why Real have now bought him because that was the exact type of player they needed. Can you seriously not see this? If you can't I'm not sure you know what you are talking about.
Jaimie, you're speaking in hindsight. No one can foresee that Alonso would have had the season he had, especially coming on poor back-to-back seasons.
ReplyDeleteGareth Barry has not played in a Liverpool shirt; no one should or could say that he would do better or worst than Alonso. End of.