Site Update: JK is away until July 31

5/08/2012 02:30:00 pm

Unplayable? Get real - LFC striker still needs to go, and here's 10 reasons why...

Liverpool striker Andy Carroll may have played well against Chelsea in the FA Cup final, but since when did one good performance define a season? It's not hard to motivate yourself to play well in a cup final, and an objective examination of the season shows that Carroll's performance on Saturday was the exception, not the rule.

It's so amusing to see the fickleness of fans and the media when it comes to Carroll. The 35m striker has (rightly) been criticised for his underwhelming impact all season, yet one good performance in a Cup Final suddenly means that he's a world beater, and according to master hyperbolist Steven Gerrard, a dead cert for England's Euro 2012 squad.

I prefer to take the long view and consider the big man's impact on the team over the last 18 months, and evidence categorically proves one thing: Carroll is not a good enough striker for Liverpool FC, and one good game is not going to change that.

Where was Carroll's effort and commitment during the 23 league games Liverpool have failed to win this season? Where were his desperately-needed goals during the 13 league games drawn or lost at home this season?

One of the main reasons Liverpool are 9th in the table is Carroll's lack of league goals, and the following ten facts illustrate exactly why he needs to be replaced:

* 7 goals in the last 35 games.
* 9 goals in 45 appearances overall this season.
* Only 3 goals in the last 28 league games (4 league goals total)
* No home league goals all season.
* One league goal every 471 minutes over the season.
* A conversion rate of 6% (the lowest of any striker in the league)
* 64% passing accuracy (the lowest in the Liverpool squad)
* Only 62% of Aerial battles won.
* Only 34% of total shots on target.
* Outscored in three months by Cisse and Jelavic, both of whom arrived in January.

Stats: OPTA

After the Cup Final, Ray Houghton told LFC TV that Carroll was 'unplayable' against Chelsea, and insisted that he would maintain that kind of form next season (!) This kind of gross exaggeration is damaging IMO, especially where there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Carroll can sustain that level of performance across a whole season.

All the available evidence suggests that Carroll is an unreliable goalscorer, and it would be foolhardy to suddenly buy into the deluded notion that he is now the answer to Liverpool's problems.

If Liverpool are going to genuinely progress, Carroll needs to be replaced with a player who possesses the rudimentary skills required of a top-class Liverpool centre-forward, most importantly, the ability to:

* Consistently score goals.
* Pass accurately.
* Shoot accurately.
* Stay balanced and coordinated amid buffeting from defenders.

This may sound harsh but it's surely more practical to see the reality than live in a fantasy land where player effectiveness is judged by one game. Living in denial is part of the reason the club is languishing in mediocrity right now, and do fans really want that to continue?

I just can't stomach the idea of a Liverpool team being set-up to accommodate a footballer as limited as Carroll. The club is (or used to be) built on a pass and move philosophy, and that isn't possible with him in the team. Pass and move goes out of the window, and the emphasis switches to getting as many crosses/high balls into the box as possible.

I don't want Liverpool to be a 'hoof it forward to the big-man' team, and that's what needs to happen if the club is to consistently get the best out of the Carroll. The club's attack should be built around mobile, athletic, skillful, technically gifted players who are comfortable on the ball; Carroll doesn't fit the bill, and a couple of good performances in cup games is not going to change that.

Jaimie Kanwar





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119 Comments :

Xxcell2010 said...

This article is excellently written, mate. You are right about AC. He's not a bad footballer but his style of play just don't suit LFC. If his price tag is a tenth of what he is, he would be a nice backup player though. Still my opinion does not change, KD must be responsible for what happened this season and he must go before any further buying and selling of players.

Blackwog said...

Jamie i would have to agree with you nothing else to say. By the way everybody i am still trying to change my user name, i don't know how so any help would be appreciated.

Hakeem Mills said...

obviously carroll gotta go same as dalglish, just because he turned on only now at the end of season doesnt mean he should stay, even if he scores 2 hatricks in the last 2 games, but more importantly is dalglish to leave, this is the first step then the others should follow him i mean his flops, but seeing many idiots fanswe have who wanna stick by dalglish for yet another season shocks me, epl getting stronger every year so this year we finished 9th or 8th, when will we finish next season, about 14 i say under dalglish, please why we have so many ignorant fans, are they afraid of dalglish? because they were not afraid of hodgson and wanted him out for only 6 months, isnt this too unfair? when will we wake up and see the reality? when? are we gonna live fantasying all the time, what the hell is the problem with these "fans", do they enjoy seeing us losing week in week out? please change your attitude before its too late, i lost hope on lfc fans , all hopes on J.Henry hopefully hes smarter than us and will do something to save his money from burning by dalglish.

Hfshpi said...

your an idiot u know fak alll bout footy.

Moocher said...

Jaimie, I can only agree wholeheartedly. AC is never going to be the answer for LFC & we are kidding ourselves if we think he will 'come good'. I also don't believe we can progress with the current manager & a number of other players. (IMO).

Nextman said...

3 Goals in his last 4 appearances. Lets see how he does today.

Dan said...

Bullshit,I consider AC a promising young player and when we got suarez and AC for the money we sold Torres for I was chuffed.If you look at what we have spent and who we have sold FSG have only spent 30 million that's a fact.Kenny took over a side in rag order due to hicks and gillette and not to mention Rafa who did in all fairness buy some amount of crap.great coach, tactician but got it wrong 50% of the time buying players.Kenny for 1 more year let's not start again.

Flemse40 said...

Shite season, we even got lucky in the "milk cup", buying British was a terrible mistake. As for AC, i think dont think we can get anywhere near the 35m we payed, therefore use him as bench player next season, hes a decent player, when you need some strength up front.

YNWA96 said...

Firstly, Steven Gerrard is the team's captain. His talking up Andy Carroll is part of the fulfillment of that particular role, not that of a journalist who is supposed to be more objective. 

Secondly, if you were truly taking the long-term view you would consider Carroll's form at Newcastle and compare it to his showing in the last 18 months. The kind of performance he produced on Saturday was similar to that which he rolled out consistently at Newcastle, and though Ray Houghton and Stevie are talking abut the upper limits of Carroll's potential there is a grain of truth there. 

'Pass and move' can be kind of eulogised. I think a fit and motivated Andy Carroll can add an extra dimension to it, like Drogba at Chelsea even but without the douchebagishness. 

You're right in saying that he has demonstrated a lack of motivation at times this season; that's the reality, that the team is not yet bedded down and consistent. Impatience is pretty understandable after a frustrating season, but a general consistency in the management and the team with a couple of new additions could get stuff done in the actual long term. 

Lion Heart said...

Carroll has been a terrible signing but realistically he isn't going to be sold any sooner. He has improved in last few games and could be a decent squad player next season but Liverpool still need a world class striker and i agree Liverpool shouldn't be playing long ball football but sometimes that is what is needed to win games. 

guru said...

You're a dope and a wum

Zulkifli said...

The tide turned when Liverpool took off Spearing and Gerrard was put to the centre.The midfield pairing of Spearing and Henderson is the worst in the league and it speaks volume about Kenny's selection and tactics especially in a cup final.There was no creativity and they were easily outplayed by Chelsea.Kenny has to go.Period.

Theycallmemrburt said...

Gerrard said: "Credit to Andy who came on and played brilliantly well.
"He changed the way we played. We were a lot better with him in the
team, we were a lot more direct, we created more, we were more of a
threat.

I agree with the above.  SG then proeeds to get all sentimental like when he compared Joe Cole to Messi..........


"I think his form (Carroll) the last two or three months has been fantastic and
he is certainly pushing for a place back in the England squad in my
opinion."

Bloody Hell, standards have slipped.

collieuk said...

My guess is you're too young to remember the Keegan/Toshack partnership of the 70's. Carroll is practically a gazelle compared to Toshack, and Keegan was in many ways similar to Suarez. It's easy to see Carroll's stats have been poor, but his improvement is evident on the pitch. It's harder for a big man to fit in, especially in a team that has been playing without one, but Carroll has great potential, and he should get another year.

Xxcell2010 said...

A promising young player should not come with a 35 mil pounds price tag, despite his nationality. Can I say that you focus a lot on the term 'net spending'? In an extreme example, if LFC sold Torres for 50 mil pounds and bought Steve Morison of Norwich for 55 mil pounds. Will you say it is a good piece of business since Steve Morison only cost 5 mil pounds net and he did score more than 20 goals during the last 2 seasons combined?

BMW said...

I would have to disagree with this article. When Andy Carroll first came to Liverpool we all had huge expectation for the young lad, but when he didn't reach those expectations after the first half of the season, we all (myself included) wanted him to go. But after recent games, Carroll has really began to show just why we paid 35mil for him in the first place. Now I'm not saying that we don't need to invest in forwards, b/c LFC are in dier need of a goal scorer. What would suite both club & player best would be a season loan where he can not worry about fighting for starting XI. Carroll is just beginning to show his stuff, we'd be idiots to just turn our backs on him now. YNWA!!!!!

Mykillstevens said...

are you serious every penny has been wasted, aguero, silva and toure cost pretty much the same as downing, carroll and henderson, suarez was the only signing worthwhile but he's being used completely wrong, only player in the opposition half and expected to do it all. masc and alonso have been gone 2 years now still no attempt at replacements where did that 50million go? Not playing maxi despite the fact he links up well with suarez. Dalglish is nearly doing a worse job than hodgson. both bought almost entirely flops except dalglish is paying 5x the amount, both are tactically inept long ball vs playing henderson and isolating suarez

Cheesey_1 said...

 The only Bluenose to ever strike fear into me was Duncan Ferguson, he was unplayable when he was fit and up for it. Carroll is similar to him, doesnt score lots of goals , has a good left foot and brilliant in the air and makes goals for his team mates. Once he puts fear up the arses of centre half's like Ferguson did,  and he stays fit which he rarely didn't then we have got ourselves a great player.
ps does anyone know big Duncs phone number we have had a few attempting burglaries in our road and I hear he is good at getting rid of them.

Jaimie K said...

It's taken 18 months for Carroll to 'show his stuff', and it's still not good enough.  The main issue is Liverpool's style of play: sticking with Carroll is unsustainable for the style of play with which the club is associated.  If we're going to build a team around a lumbering lummox like Carroll, we might as well have Sam Allardyce in charge. Modern, progressive *successful* teams are not built around technically inept target men, and you don't see the teams that win the top trophies constantly hoofing the ball up to a big man.

Football analyst said...

Jaimie,today im going to disagree with you and here is why :


1. Kenny should take all the blame to blow the guy confidence each time. i remeber caroll scored against bitters and kenny benched andy the next game, how do u want the guy to grow confidence ??
2. our midfield is S***. we must admitt gerrard was injured most of the first half of the season and never came back to anywhere near his best lately. 

adam hendo was poor , spearo a disgrace. 


3. our wingers , downing cannot dribble past anyone, most of the time passing backwards to enrique who is another disgrace and should never wear a liverpool shirt again. 
my point is if our winger cant make good crosses, how do u expect caroll to score
if our midfield lacks creativity how is big Andy supposed to score? ( this season i can count on one hand , how many through ball our strikers were supplied to score . this show the lack of quality in midfield and to be honest this is not the way to motivate big A.

if you want me to prove it, suarez has been good for us since signing, ryt ? but was very silent for 54 mins in the final , again because our midfield doesnt give enough support ..

if the same andy caroll get good incoming crosses i am 100 % confident , Andy is going to be indispensable :) Cheers

RedWill said...

Carroll has been gradually improving all season and is now playing 100% better than he was at the start of the season. His touch is vastly improved, his passing stats will have improved dramatically as well and the lad has started scoring goals.

He is 23 years of age, is improving and is starting to show why he was purchased, seems to be settling in the area and into playing at LFC. The fact improvements are being made and he is now making a much better contribution to the team along with the fact we would make a huge loss on the player all point to the fact he should not be sold.

Carroll will prove his worth next season.

Deebo said...

Carroll has looked better in recent weeks, but let's be honest, he's improved from a very low level. He's been woeful all season and goals against everton and Chelsea don't change that fact.

It's important not to blow his recent form out of proportion.

He's too clumsy, too slow and doesn't think quickly enough. Granted, he's not been helped by the poor service from downing, henderson et al but you can only blame so much on them.

The truth is we have bought someone who is going to develop into an average striker at best. He's more or less the same age as Aguero and cost the same but look at the difference in class, composure, temperament etc.

Bad buy, cup final goal or no cup final goal

RedHeart said...

Carroll has definitely improved since he came but still not good enough that we can bet one more season on him. We need another good striker with a better manager. 

Kama160372 said...

KD should go..not Carrol..and ask KD to bring along his asshole kit model player Henderson..the most rubbish LFC player in history..
Two of you tarnished LFC image..

redredman said...

AC has got better as the season has progressed. Its not just about a goal he scored in the FA Cup Final. The last 8 weeks have shown that he is showing signs of tbeing the fantastic striker WE ALL THOUGHT we had bought. There are several reasons for AC underwhelming at Anfield.

1) The price tag that is harped on about whenever the lads name is mentioned.
2) He was injured when we signed him and it has taken him a long time to get back to full fitness
3) The service he receives from midfield is atrocious. If you sign a player for the amount of money we did for AC then surely you have to play to his strengths.
4) He is still developing his game and you can definately see the signs of this
5) He hasnt had a decent run in the team as KD likes to chop changes and rotate.

The problem with AC is imo KD he has not utilised his most expensive asset properly. I couldnt believe he was not selected from the off in the FA cup Final.
This article is about AC and I dont wont to deflect from that but really I have supported Henderson all season but I can honestly say KD sees something in him nobody else does. At the weekend he was woeful. He wasnt the only one. Spearing and once again Downing where really disappointing. Gerrard didnt turn up and Suarez didnt seem himself.
Moving Forward I think and its the first time I have thought or said it, KD must go. We need to get rid of Reina, Downing, Adams, Kuyt and Maxi. We need to sign a new keeper a creative centre midfield to play with Lucas, one winger and a supporting striker to compliment (not replace) AC skills. We need to promote some of the youth players (Sterling Suso etc) and try and stop the definate Rot that is setting in to the club.
Fly on the wall documentaries.............John Smith, Shanks, Paisley etc will be turning in there graves.

Gagnauga said...

Andy Carroll is a great player and he will only get better. To let him leave is crazy.  

OneFlow said...

Ridiculous. I do agree that Carrolls services are no longer required, but how self righteous can you be in judging KD? How can you criticise his style of play, when LFC has created more chances than any other team? Yes, the conversion rate is terrible, but that's down to the players. Look at all the surefire chances that Carroll, Kuyt, Downing and Henderson gave away. How the hell so many people are so quick to attack the King is a mystery to me. A man gives his life to your club and you don't give him a year. The most ugly thing that happened to football is the constant witch hunt, the masses of cheap little twerps that just want to see someone guilty for their displeasures and I pray that LFC still has enough sense of tradition and football to know that this is not the way. This is not economics, it's sport. Go support City, if you favor results over values.

Sbaxter said...

I'm beginning to question whether you are a Liverpool fan Jamie. Your articles are becoming increasingly negative and are often imbalanced owing to this negative slant you seem to put on things.

We all know Carroll wasn't fit when he arrived and it has taken him a while to find his fitness and his feet.

Now he seems to have found both of these and for several months now (not weeks) he has looked fit, keen, determined and capable of influencing games in the way that we all hoped that he would when he arrived.

I for one was hoping he'd start on Saturday and was disappointed to learn he wouldn't be. This sentiment I know was echoed by many and therefore shows how valued he is becoming to the supporters.

If you were writing articles when Lucas was having a tough time I'd be interested to hear what you were saying then.

Let's get behind AC, I for one think he'll prove you wrong!

Jaimie K said...

I agree with all your points - it's not entirely Carroll's fault. KD has handled him badly at times, and the service from Paul Stewart Downing and Henderson has been terrible.

However, as his stats show, Carroll is technically inept, which is big reason why he fails to score lots of goals, and if he hasn't learned the basics by now, he never will.

Consider this: When Robbie Fowler was 22-23, he scored 36 goals in one season for LFC; when Michael Owen was the same age as Carroll, he scored 28 goals in one season; Rushie scored 47 when he was 23 (!) - that's the difference.

Jaimie K said...

I have provided objective facts to illustrate why Carroll is not a great player. What evidence do you have to support the notion that Carroll IS a great player?

Bekim said...

I agree with u Jamie but the problem is whos going to buy him and no club will pay more than five million for him. If were lucky that is. That's lots of money to lose 18 months. Only new mngr will get rid of as I don't think KD will cos it will look bad on him. Henderson, Downing, Adam and Spearing need to go too.

Polo said...

 
            
  That is hypocritical though as Fowler Rush and Owen had players suppling them, AC doesn't, as was said before Downing couldn't dribble down his chin or cross his legs! and we have not had a right winger so its not his fault at all. 

Neiljamiesonhall said...

Very good points well written.

PatrickTheRed said...

 You do with Chelsea hoofing it up to Drogba for years..

Theycallmemrburt said...

Paul Stewart Downing? I like it.

Rowanuk said...

are you part of the EDL you muppit?

Neiljamiesonhall said...

Jamie, how much do you think we would get for Carroll?

Theycallmemrburt said...

I partly agree.  Rushy had people supplying him because Kenny used to like buying talented players.  Then he went to Blackburn and was fooled into believing that players like Jason Wilcox, Tim Sherwood, Batty and Ripley were the only way forward.  These players were good players for that time.  Kenny thinks this type of player is good enough to stand the test of time.  We need players of the ilk of Barnes, Molby, Beardsley and Houghton or at the very least natural footballers as apposed to natural athletes.

Carroll is still however short of quality and pace in a league that is growing in both technique and speed year on year.  Gone are the days when top sides signed players who rely so heavily on precision service.

Jeremyyoong said...

even my grandma know AC is nothing but mediocre player.

Jaimie K said...

Hopefully, all the exaggeration about his form will drive his price up. Liverpool are going to make a loss on Carroll at some point anyway, so it might as well be now. Sometimes, you just have to bit the bullet and take it on the chin. Getting rid of Carroll would be a brilliant show of intent from FSG or the new manager - it would tell the world - and the rest of the players - that if you come to LFC and fail, you're out.

That's the kind of ruthlessness needed at LFC IMO, and that's what's been missing for over 20 years. Managers and players get far too long to settle in and deliver, and while we're waiting, the club gets further and further away from the league.

There's already precedent for this - Benitez got rid of Keane after 6 months, and the club took an 8m hit on him.. Carroll's loss could be worse, but to mitigate the financial loss, a deal involving a player swap of some kind would probably be good.

For example: Clint Dempsey and Dembele for Carroll?

Form said...

CLOSET MANCS ON A F*U
* C
* K
* W
* I
* T Website.

mrchopper said...

Carroll looks better with every match. In his last few matches he's wiped the floor with the other players, including Suarez. We bought him as a long term player and investment. If he hits the ground running next season in the same way he's ended this one, I don't think there can be many complaints if he takes a while to come good.

Where or not I can say the same for KD, I don't know. Our league standing is an absolute embarrassment and we all know who normally takes the rap for a team underperforming.

Yasin said...

Time and that the lad is just 23 years old!! Was ibraimovic a world beater at 23?? Was Llorente?? and Berbatov?? and Crouch?? And Bent?? These type of players mature later in their career.. There was an article on these types of players but i can't remember the website at the moment.. I think you should have read it.. Carroll is the type of player where we need to give him time.. His goals(counting the one that seemingly didn't go in) did not come from crosses from the byline.. He has more goals from his left foot than his head..

Rowanuk said...

The problem is, selling him now would result in huge losses, while giving him a chance under a manager who actually has a clue could result in him being used well and performing a better service to the team. Everyone knocked Crouch at first, and he was a donkey, but he did serve a purpose.
Carroll has finally curbed his thug life style and looks to be trying, yes its taken a long time and he should have made that effort from the start, but lets remember, he did not want to leave newcastle,he was sold so a fat geordie could make money.
we need to buy 2 forwards this summer, someone to replace kuyt, and someone to go into the first team/alternate with carroll. that way, carroll knows he has to try extra hard all the time to get into the side.
Keeping him one more season , imo, is better than selling him for 12m now, as thats about all we'd get. a 23m loss would be a bitter blow.

Neiljamiesonhall said...

The selling of Keane may have appeared ruthless but it left us short of options up front at a crucial time. We should have won the  league that season and the money we got back on him was never spent. I can't see how selling Carroll at such a huge loss will benefit the club. Top teams have strength in depth.

Hakeem Mills said...

fair enough, just answer me this, why you wanted hodgson out just after 6 months, didnt he deserve a year or more to prove himself like dalglish "deserves" now? plus dont forget roy spent nothing comparing to dalglish, your being totally unfair and controversial to yourself, if you can give daglish 2 years then you should of given roy at least a year ffs, or what you gonna say now, that you werent one of those who wanted roy out? c'mon stop embarrassing yourself.

Rowanuk said...

Surely you must feel the same way about henderson , downing and adam, in fact, ive seen less from all of them than from AC. OK so adam set up a few goals and scored a few but in reality he is not a liverpool player and is a waste of space. i agree that listing some of kd's dross could be a good move, but surely downing (at 27) or henderson, who has been a very weak link in almost every game, would make more sense.
Downings re sale value is going to shrink more and more, he's already down to @7m. if we sold downing, henderson and adam we could raise enough to buy a decent player or 2 good younger prospects from abroad.
if we sell AC for 12m, that would not even cover the luke de jong money.

Guest said...

lol, list me managers that gets over 50% of his signings right... Oh and while FSG only spent 30 million (don't know if the figures are right), they lost an asset that was worth 50 million and failed to replace it.  

Spaniard said...

"if you favor results over values"
What? Like his display of values over the surezgate Evra affair? Yeah, he really cloaked himself in glory with that one, didn't he? His bitter glaswegian retorts when he is being interviewed - the Liverpool Way, yeah?

Typical f***ing KD apologist - the guy is a cr@p manager, end of. He is responsible for buying and picking the players - ulitmate responsibiltity falls to KD, NOT the players. If a player is not scoring, drop the twerp and give someone else a chance - does KD do this? No he does not. He plays the utter tripe he bought week in week out to justify his incredibly poor judgement in the transfer market. He has marginalised decent solid players liek Kuyt and Maxi to accommodate the likes of JH, CA and SD - as such, he has regressed this club a minimum 5 years - respect? He can go jump for it, and the rest of all you supposed "real" fans.

He gives his life to the club . .  ha,don't make me laugh! I'm sure he's been paid handsomely for it. Dalglish out, the bitter glaswegian failure of a manager

Boyspen53 said...

I take your point about providing 'objective data' to back up your argument. Unfortunately even objective data can paint a misleading picture. Take Demba Ba as an example; he was 'on fire' early in the season and scored 16 goals at close to a goal a game. However, he has now failed to score for 14 games and is going through a really barren spell. It happens to ALL strikers. Had the two sets of stats been reversed Newcastle fans would have been wondering what the hell was going on.
Regarding the number of 'games' played by AC, you know full well that is a misleading stat and that you should be using appearances, since many of his appearances were as a late, sometimes very late, substitute. Unlike you, I prefer to always concentrate on the positives. Admittedly there are not many.He is now beginning to display the sort of form which made me happy to see him joining LFC and he has demonstrated that he can be a big game player. The winning goal in the semi- final and very close to 2 goals in the final. Try to be more positive, Jaimie.

Chris E said...

The thing I find a bit sad about this whole situation with Carroll is that when he played at Newcastle they were set up playing a very direct style which suited him, I still think it's why he's struggling at Liverpool.  But since he left Alan Pardew has changed how Newcastle play, they're now playing more of a passing and possession style which Liverpool used to be more renowned for.  People say we should sell him back to Newcastle even at a massive loss, but I don't think they'd take him, he doesn't suit them anymore, not to mention in Ba and Cisse they've got more prolific strikers anyway.

I still can't get my head around that transfer fee.  When Newcastle were in the championship he scored 17 goals in 39 appearances, which isn't great.  Then in their first half season back in the PL he scored 11 in 19, which is on course for that 20 a season total expected of strikers but hardly setting the world on fire.  How did any of that convince someone he was worth £35m?  Mike Ashley must have fallen out of his chair laughing when the bid came in.

Jaimie K said...

Rowan - yes, I feel the same about those players you mention (less so about Adam, as he was relatively inexpensive). If it was down to me, I would dump Carroll, Downing and Henderson. The only facts that matters re those three:

* 5 league goals between them
* Liverpool have regressed in the league despite their signings.

Screw potential; Henderson is never going to be a replacement for Gerrard. He's a squad player at best, and Sunderland was the right performance level for him.

Jaimie K said...

Yes, I think you're right re Keane. Re Carroll - the benefit to the club is that there will be no faffing about trying to accommodate a big target man in the team. Liverpool can focus on quick pass and move football without having to worry about how to fit Carroll into the equation.

That pass and move style needs to improve, and the players need to get comfortable with it, and that can't happen if we're constantly chopping and changing between that and what is ostensibly a long-ball game.

If Carroll stays, the development of the Liverpool style of play will be stunted, and that will cost the team in the long run.

The club has to choose it's main style of play and stick with it: if it's pass and move, then get rid of Carroll; if it's playing to Carroll's strengths, then make him the main striker and play him every game.

Jaimie K said...

I think we could get 12-15m in a straight cash deal, or perhaps 10m plus a player. That's being conservative though. Other teams may not see Carroll the way LFC fans do, and other managers will see that Carroll can thrive in a team that's set up to accommodate him, and that means they may pay slightly more.

Teams perfect for Carroll: Aston Villa, Everton, Sunderland, Fulham, West Brom etc - definitely not Liverpool.

Jaimie K said...

Great points, Chris. I think you're spot on about how Newcastle have changed their style of play. They play how Liverpool *should* be playing, and there's no way they'd take Carroll back now because he would disrupt their free-flowing style.

Agree also about the transfer fee - it was just utter negligence to pay 35m, and there was nothing to suggest that Carroll was worth that much. It's hard to understand, and decisions like that are the reason heads need to roll at LFC.

Jaimie K said...

Hi mate.  When you comment, do you have a disqus account, or is your username automatically displayed when you get to the comment form?

Jaimie K said...

Hi mate.  When you comment, do you have a disqus account, or do you post as a Guest?  

Scmoffett said...

are yous all fools wat ever happened to youll never walk alone the biggest and best modo of my great club i say my club as everyone of you are not worthy to call yourselves liverpool fan how about get behind the club and surport it no matter wat happens true fans follow there club in good our bad to quote another clubs song rangers "if the streets be broad and narrow we follow we will follow we follow we will if the streets are broad and narrow we follow we will we will follow in the footsteps of our time"so try and foolow OUR TEAM YNWA

Rowanuk said...

it beggars belief that none of the expensive buys have contributed. 4th was there for the taking, and had any of those stepped up, we could be playing CL football next season.
KD seems stubborn and wants to prove he has not wasted money, so, if he stays on one would assume he would continue next season as he has this one.

How much do you think we'd get for that trio? which of the supposed targets do you think we should go for, and how much will they likely be? its worrying to think that there will only be around 20m spent this summer, and if that is the case, surely there has to be some quick sales of the players mentioned in order to boost the kitty.

were really going to see how committed FSG are this summer-they need to be brave and dig deep into their pockets again.

Rowanuk said...

the reality is, unless arry thinks a cheap carroll would be 'worth a punt' Carroll is going to end up at fulham, stoke or everton.

Ray12858 said...

Kenny didn`t spend the money, Comolli did. Kenny might have picked the players but Comolli done the finance side and agreed the fee. Google Comolli. read about him. Sacked 3 times now . If fsg would have done some research into him they wouldn`t have employed him. They must take some of the blame.

Rowanuk said...

blindly follow the club into mid table land. i bet you were calling for hodgson's head. 

Paul said...

You realy are a peice of shit Jaimie, lets sack Dalglish and Carroll, and lets all go to Hell!

Hakeem Mills said...

kenny didnt spend the money, ok then it was him who chose the players right? yes, and i dont care how much they costed, he just didnt bring quality to this club thats all im trying to say, thats why he must go, but ok i hope henry gives him another year for all your pleasure and you will see where we gonna end up , im telling you i bet you will leave this club after the next season if kenny remains same as many others, you want failure? FINE, hope you get it, i wont bother anymore.

Collysoss said...

God forbid you would write something positive about Liverpool or Andy. Every thing you say is putting down the club. A month back you wanted Suarez gone, now Andy? Sure why bother play anybody, or maybe you should run down to melwood and see if you can get playing tonight. Or why don't you invest some of the money you make on advertising In the squad, or buy the club and run it the way it should be run! No I got it why don't you start small and write something to benifit down hearted liverpool fans instead of sounding like you work for hicks PR team. YNWA

Gorillaz428 said...

Not true at all. Kenny overuled Comolli on several occasions during the transfer windows. Comolli wanted to sign oversees players but Kenny insisted on buying British where possible. Liverpool hasn't spent beyond its means, but it has signed a lot of mediocre domestic talent while other teams have signed fantastic foreign players on a lot less.

Also, Kenny's handling of the Suarez affair was very embarrassing for the club probably contributed to the poor form of the squad. 

tallpaulp said...

straight swap for dempsey anyday.

smurfy said...

we'd still be supporting hicks and gillett with what your saying. support does not mean the same as blind faith. football is a business and in a modern world if you don't act quickly, and correctly you can sink fast.

Gorillaz428 said...

"If you look at what we have spent and who we have sold"

This kind of talk can't go on. I can't believe that there are fans out there who regard the Torres money as "free money" that doesn't count so it doesn't matter if its thrown away. I agree that Carroll will come good but stop trying to put lipstick on the pig. Nigh on £100 million (not 30) has been injected into the club with the express intention of catapulting Liverpool back to the top of the Premiership. Instead, Liverpool is at best treading water while other teams have leapfrogged us. Something is seriously wrong and we can't count on FSG to shell out even more money.

OriginalChan said...

The guy has a £35m figure above his head which he isn't worth, nowhere near and his task is made even worse by the fact that KK's main playing style for the team simply will not get the best out of Carroll and only has one winger to give service, a mediocre one. 

OriginalChan said...

And the thing is Carroll was at his best for Newcastle when he had a strong big and aggressive partner alongside him, Shola Ameobi. We got no one like Ameobi in terms of style to play alongside Carroll. Quite obvious that Suarez and Carroll don't actually link up that well directly with each other.

We don't have the playing style nor POSSIBLY (as he is still young, so he could adapt to someone different) a complimentary playing partner for him. Don't get me wrong, he isn't worth the fee, nowhere near and probably never will be but his life on the pitch is made a lot harder by the playing style.Bemusing signing, Carroll, bemusing.

OriginalChan said...

Disagree with your use of Demba Ba.

It is quite clear from watching Newcastle, quite clear from the comments made by Pardew and Ba (google it if your curious), that Ba has been playing on the left wing a lot since Cisse has come in.
Newcastle have often used 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 since Cisse has come in. Ba has played plenty on the left since Cisse has come in. Cabaye sometimes slots in behind Cisse, with Guthrie/Perch-Tiote sitting as the midfield duo, in the 4-2-3-1.

kopitefromkali said...

Both of them should get another year at least, kk can stay forever though. Sad how quick some of you are calling for the sack. Too many things factored this season's agony. but I do believe w the few more signings(ramirez, elm, etc) we will get in the summer will do us just fine. Long live the king! Please let's get behind him, ac, and our players. Jft96.ynwa

kopitefromkali said...

Agree w sbaxter<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OriginalChan said...

12 of those 18 months were in the Championship, hardly the creme de la creme. 

So that narrows it down to 6 months as a first XI player in a top tier league before joining the club. Hardly a 'long term' period of football is it. 

To be fair, Drogba is a complete target man, a world class one at that. Drogba is consistently, technically excellent, whereas Carroll's technique is average at best, hence the 'upper limit' is certainly lower with Carroll in mine and some other people's eyes. One expects a far better level of technical ability for £35m than Carroll has. Carroll is light years away from the level of ability that Drogba possesses. Set the bar lower, i.e., Crouchie. 
Drogba is a chump with his antics but Carroll is hardly an angel, with his diving and constant berating of referees. So I don't think Carroll is that far off Didier's 'douchebagishness' or at least he is closer to Drogba's antics then he is to Drogba's football ability.Yes, Carroll performed well in the FA Cup final. But that is (because it was a FA Cup final and around 30 minutes to ago, we were losing) when the team sacrificed its normal playing style and had to throw kitchen at the sink at Chelsea. That sort of gung-ho playing style is a last resort when teams are in desperate search for a goal, hence rarely used as a main playing style. To add something to the team, you need to suit the existing dynamic of the team as well as adding to it. No use Carroll offering plan B if he can't fit in well enough with the plan A. 

Sbaxter said...

Newcastle......Possession football? You're deluded. Incisive counter attacking football with 4 good attacking players yes but possession footy no chance. Cabaye, Ben Arfa (when he wants to), Demba Ba and Cisse all very good players but completely outplayed by Swansea and let's not forget a decent ref and Lfc would have beaten them for a 2nd time this season.

For the possession footy you speak of look at LFC. How many times have we been outplayed this year? Not many! Beaten, yes too many since Suarez's ban started but even then not outplayed anywhere near as often as the results suggest.

I guarantee LFC will finish above LFC next year if we keep KD, Keep Carroll and add few decent names to replace the likely departing Kuyt, Cole, Aquilani, Aurelio etc.

You also forget the circumstances in which Carroll was bought, last day of the transfer window......Carroll + Suarez for Babel and Torres. I know which 2 I'd rather have!

Never been on this site before but twice in a day. Some sense of perspective, rationality, reason and most of all positivity required.....

Sbaxter said...

And if you act too quickly you can sink faster. Speed of action is not important but what you do and why you do it is. E.g. you'd have got rid of Lucas if you were too hasty in dismissing him as a footballer.

At the moment we play good footy, dominate most games but just seem inept in front of goal as has been much publicised with conversion ratio, number of times hit woodwork etc.

If we convert more chances as e.g. we're doing tonight and keep playing good footy what will you guys moan about then? I'm sure you'll find something......

redredman said...

Carroll will be selected for the England Squad for the Euros in the Summer.

Scmoffett said...

i was and still am a big roy hodgson fan he didnt get the time to put in place wat he wanted when fsg took over the club they said it would take time to rebuild at times this year we were shit hot and unplayabe the reason i put up the post before was because everytime i come on and read one of this guys stories  wether we have won or not hes always having ago typical british media wait and see now in the next few weeks wat sories wil becoming out in the media about the england players before they go to a major tourament why always the same. For me the trouble started before hodgson he was left wth aload of crap hodgson had nothing to work with.just want us all too get behind our team and our manger

Bekim said...

Hopefully Harry Redknap will take him to Surs just like wasted 12 million on Robie Keane. I hope so anyway.

Dave said...

Spot on Jaimie.

Dave said...

Hodgson is a poor manager. A career of utter mediocrity. He's failed in every big job he's been given and has no idea how to manage top class players.

Nothing to work with?? He was handed Reina, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Mascherano, Aquilani, Torres and Steven Gerrard. That's more than the vast majority of managers get in a career!

Dave said...

Perfect team for him is Stoke or Big Sam's West Ham.

Brendanmaguire05 said...

am I the only one when I hear "unplayable" cringes? Doesn't it mean shouldn't /couldn't be played?

Chris E said...

And what's the point of outplaying an opponent if you're not going to beat them?  There are no points for pretty play and possession percentages, only for goals scored.  I saw that Newcastle - Swansea game, Swansea did have the most possession, and about one clear cut chance that they didn't finish, Newcastle took theirs thus rendering all that Swansea passing utterly pointless.  

You seem to think that I'm saying Newcastle are a proper passing and possession side, I never said that, I said they're playing more like that and which ever way you want to slice it, they've been a damn sight more effective than Liverpool this season and at a fraction of the cost.You guarantee Liverpool will finish higher than Newcastle eh?  I suspect that almost everyone would have said that at the beginning of this season as well.  But where were the decent signings last season when they were needed?  There weren't any, Liverpool paid way over the odds for players.  I wouldn't be surprised if LFC finish above Newcastle next season, but Liverpool have a lot more spending power than NUFC, a bigger fan base and should expect to finish above them every time.I haven't forgotten the circumstances in which Carroll was bought, the worst possible time of the season and still that does not detract from my point that he had not displayed anything like the ability or form expected of a player costing that much, even at half the price Newcastle would have gotten the better part of that deal.  He was not worth that amount of money and will have a hard job ever being able to justify that price tag, I hope he does, I hope he proves me wrong, I just doubt he can.

al-qasim said...

I can believe what bullocks you spit out sometimes! it seem you are a typical win, win, win fellow! football is life man, you can't win all the time!!!!
 Kenny is still King!!!
 and by the look of your username, you seem like a Benitez apologist still bitter about his departure! forget it, Mate LFC are past that!!!!!
     YNWA

Neiljamiesonhall said...

I think 12-15m is about right so can't see the owners prepared to take such a loss. It would be more benefit to the team to keep him whilst also adding an extra striker to the squad. Manchester City have used four strikers of different styles who have all contributed to what should be a title win on Sunday. Barcelona have shown this season that even the most gifted teams need to adapt their style when plan A isn't working. Hence how Chelsea's tactics worked against them.

al-qasim said...

The point in outplaying you opponent is to prove to cynics like most of the dudes here that LFC is improving and progressing!!!!

al-qasim said...

so if LFC is relegated, you would rather support Newcastle......yeah right! i see the reason why you made all those cynical comments above!!!

H8UTD said...

do me a favour, don't quote anything to do with that sc*mbag club. the sooner those racist,bigoted c*nts go bust, the better the world will be. sub human sc*m.

Matt said...

since the new year carroll has been very good. he will never live up to the price tag so stop talking about it. we know we paid too much because we got too much for torres.
last night he was excellent and made jt look like a reserve team player.
he has come good in my books after a run in the side and he deserves another 12 months with us.

OriginalChan said...

'he has come good'

already? Yikes, talk about low standards

I guess after putting up with the rubbish performances from him earlier, means that any half-decent performance will seem like a world class one. 

Blackwog said...

Not to sure can not remember more than likely as a guest.

Blackwog said...

He was worth 35 mill i pray he can prove his worth.

Cheesey_1 said...

Football is played on grass not on a computer or a subutteo board.
Carroll brings something to the side which no stat can measure, PRESENCE.
His presence allows the freedom to the other players around him to move into open spaces as he takes defenders with him as he is unplayable in the air.

OriginalChan said...

A lot of moaning but not a lot of substance or anything good to back it up. Without the substance, you could have simply summed up your long-arsed post in one short paragraph. 

OriginalChan said...

'Unplayable' 

What the hell is unplayable? Unplayable when he came off the bench against Manure and did nothing but getting outdone in the air by little Rafael. Some 'presence'

'presence' alone isn't enough

Drogba has the 'presence', the quality and the stats.

Sbaxter said...

You compared Newcastle to the Liverpool of old so you are saying Newcastle are a passing and possession side.

I remember sitting the dross dished out by lfc v Wolves at Anfield last season and turning to my mate and saying I don't mind losing from time to time but just want so see us play decent football again.

Of course I'd prefer lfc to play good football and win every game but that's just not realistic without the spending power of Man City, Chelsea etc.

Point is I'd rather watch the type of football Lfc play than many teams in the Prem including Newcastle and next season if we can build on this season and move up the chance conversion league then we'll win more of the games that the performances warrant.

Some positivity needed as we are definitely heading in the right direction....

Sbaxter said...

So now we pick individual games to assess plays and make judgements. Well how about we take last night then to prove your point wrong. Is John Terry a better defender than Rafael.....Yes. Is Ivanovic better than Rafael......Yes. Did Terry cause them no end of problems last night resulting in a mann of the match award......yes. Is Vidic crap cos' every time Torres played against him for Liverpool he panicked and either gave away goals or got sent off or both......Yes.

Cheesey_1 said...

Chan you look at the Players over the years upfront who had a presence because of their sheer size, physique and the fact they put fear into defenders and on their day were unplayable. Drogba, Ferguson, Les Ferdinand, Shearer for example.
You look at strikers who dont have a presence, despite their size and who dont strike fear into opponents.
Crouch, Heskey, Bentdner, Straqularsi 
Carroll is young and learning, he has had a rough time on and off the pitch lately but once he matures he could be a top player for us. 

RedWill said...

That was his price tag, its got nothing to do with showing his worth to the team.

OriginalChan said...

So just because I picked out one example, that automatically means that my point is conclusively based on that? How naive of you. My perception of Carroll is based on what he has done over time, not just cherry-picked individual games here and there. If your going to respond to my point, at least don't make rubbish up about what I mean.

Iangbutler said...

paul ffrench...excellent response to another over the top rant by jk.as for mr chan,u are as morose as jamie,totally negative,the problem with you and other fans like you is that in your world,you want instant success.were u brought up on tv dinners,do u suffer from premature ejaculation?cant wait for xmas?the point here is that lfc have made strides in my humble opinion.they may be small strides but yknow what,im prepared to wait for things to improve.last nite AC WAS unplayable!!he was superb all game.he ran his socks off for the team and as a fan thats good enough for me.as for jk ridiculous comment in the article that we played a chelsea reserve team?wtf?could u not have praised our performance?did u have to have a stupid dig at our win,is it slightly diluted in ur eyes jamie with the players chelsea played?by all means criticise when its due but also give credit when thats due too.

OriginalChan said...

At Newcastle, he was at his best when he played alongside Ameobi. Ameobi is a average player but he is aggressive, physical and big. He did a lot of the dirty work and shared the physical burden with Carroll. So even at Newcastle, at his best, he wasn't doing a lot of physical donkey work. Apart from a game here and there, for now, Carroll isn't a one-man physical force yet for us. He is just a big striker, who shows some presence now and then. 
The excuse he has for now is that players of his 'alleged' (I still don't think that is his game, to be a bullying target man) type take a while to develop. Which is fair enough, I admit.

He'd do well just to try and better Crouch, as Drogba (technically miles ahead of Carroll) standards are a long long long way off.

Carroll is technically mediocre, it is unlikely he will be a top player. His touch is so inconsistent, sometimes has the touch of a horse moving with a ball. Shearer was aggressive, etc, but he was technically good and one of the best strikers of the ball in PL history. Sir Les the same too, he wasn't just about presence, he was bloody good striker in general. 

Carroll will be a good player but unlikely he will be a top player and nowhere near a £35m centre forward. Not with the level of technical ability he has.

You can't be a top player with just 'presence'/aggression alone. You might be able to be a decent/good player who 'can do a job'. To be a top player, you have to have more than that. That is why Duncan Ferguson was really just an 'ok' player, nowhere near being a 'top player'. 

Llorente of Bilbao has the presence, aggression but he also plays smart, can suit the short passing game well if need be and is technically very good.

After Drogba, Llorente is the ideal modern day physical centre forward as he has the quality and technique to go with the presence. 

Iangbutler said...

chan,are u a fan of kuyt?

OriginalChan said...

As a squad player, as a £9m player, I think he is a 'ok' player that has his uses and shown his uses numerous times in a Liverpool shirt, an 'ok' player that most fans didn't pretend he was going to be a 'top player'. No-frills. So considering that, I don't mind him and I like him in the squad. 

Oneflow said...

Hey mate, for one thing, I didn't want Hodgson out, but I also couldn't do much about it. (Seeing as how I'm just a fan) I think players and coaches deserve some time in general, just like every employee. You need time to get things working. In Hodgsons case  I truly believe that he had bad luck coming in when he did, since he was already second choice to most people and the first choice was still very much available.  Now you don't need to believe me that I don't dislike Hodgson, if that makes me fit your bill any better, but as a general rule in life: Just because things wen't wrong in the past, that doesn't mean you're entitled to screw up again in the fututre. Saying "Well, we already mishandled Hodgson, so let's just do the same to KD" is very childish and sadly an attitude that's become all too common these days

Iangbutler said...

but kuyts second touch is normally a tackle!!yet i rarely hear fans criticise kuyt lack of skill and if im honest i think hes 1 of the poorest dutch exports in a while,yes he runs all day blah blah blah but not good enough for us and as for the price tag of AC,well,he didnt set the price himself did he!if ur happy with kuyts lack of talent then surely u have to give ac more time to settle in and develop.

VormHat said...

This ignores the different career arcs of target men versus pacier finisher types. Rush, Owen and Fowler are all of the second type.

Let me explain:
Rush had his best goal scoring season when he was 22
Owen had his at 21
Fowler had his at 20
Torres had his at 23

Compare with:
Luca Toni had his at 30
Drogba had his at 31
Vieri had his at 29
Klose had his at 27

Target men tend to take longet to play top level football. Quicker players like Fowler or Torres or Owen can make their debut before they're 18. Carroll, unusually made his debut at 17. He is actually ahead of the curve compared to most target men.

Statistically the team win more with him in the starting side, than without- significantly more against the top 6 teams.

That doesn't mean there isn't some weight to your arguments about him being incompatible with the style of play, but these arguments about Fowler etc. aren't fair without context.

OriginalChan said...

Tough bloody luck, if Carroll has a so-called unfair £35m price tag.

Life isn't fair, so got no sympathies for the man. I have acknowledged in the past that he has it tough because of the price tag but at the end of the day, that is football and rightly so.He was bigged up as the next big British thing, regardless of the price tag.So with that, comes high expectations and pressure. Tough bloody luck.Kuyt was bought a modest fee and wasn't made out to be the next big thing, wasn't hyped up like Carroll. Hence the expectations are lower. Hence, we can put with his dodgy performances more than we can with Carroll.Anytime Carroll puts in a decent performance, you got post-match pundits going all over-the-top and lovey-dovey over it. I don't recall such positivity whenever Kuyt has put in a decent performance. So to be honest, don't give a monkeys about unfair expectations on Carroll. So its farcical and bemusing justification to use Kuyt as a reason to lower the expectation and pressure on Carroll.

Jay said...

Why can't Carroll 'come good'?? Target men rarely perform well so early in their careers, and I remember Drogba being pretty poor for Chelsea for a couple of years also (after beasting us in Europe with Marseille).

Liverpool paid way too much for Carroll, and bought him too early, but he very likely will be one of the top big men by the time he reaches 25. Unfortunately, Liverpool can't afford to wait that long for him to develop. Well, we can, but we just won't be an elite team while being built around a focal point that hasn't learnt how to maximize his talents yet...

Scmoffett said...

no i would follow lfc two the depths of non leauge if it happened i follow my team no matter wat or where tat wat it means to me to be a fan ynwa

Scmoffett said...

The players he was handed didnt want to play for him torres,masherano ,johnson did you forget that reina and johnson was for leaving and mascherano was out the door so quick there was a trail of fire following him. Lucas,Gerrard,Agger,reina and skrtel along with caragh was the only players in Hodgsons regin that played with there heart

OriginalChan said...

Falcao, now that is a £35m striker.

gabweb said...

Carroll's improving, starting to find decent form and now is not the time to sell him, in my opinion. Why should we sell him now that he is looking fit and starting to get into goalscoring positions? It seems to me that he had a lot of learning to do when he joined us and the penny is finally beginning to drop. I also wonder whether he might even be more productive once we have a manager who can get the best out of all the players. Whether he is worth the money or not, that is done with. He can do a job for the team.

I said a long time ago that i could see him making the Euros, and with Hodgson and his negative hoofball in charge, i think that chance has increased. Glad Roy is England manager, everyone who slated us for giving him a hard time will soon see how we felt. Let's see if the other team's supporters are more forgiving. And it is even longer since England won anything than it is since we won anything, so we can hit them with cliches such as 'you have to accept that England is not a big team anymore', etc, etc.

Wilber7 said...

the internet gives a voice to far too many people who don't go the game! you point out that he only wins 62% of his aerial duels? fuck me that means he wins 2 out of every 3 jumps! not bad considering some of the centre halves he has to compete with in this league, if we sell him what would we get? £10m at best? why sell him for such a measly figure at the age of 23? after seeing his performances over the last 2 months i have full confidence in what the lad can do! the kop sang his name for the first time this season against chelsea, did you know that? probably not because you're too busy on here pulling the team to bits, we don't need 'fans' like you

OriginalChan said...

Roy has got some luck on his side though with England, as there doesn't seem to be that much pressure for him to do well at the Euros, because its been kinda hurried the whole process since Capello went.

Scmoffett said...

thats what my first post was about always has something bad to say thought this page was for liverpool fans not people who want to drop the shit on them every time things get tough 

Scmoffett said...

take it you would prefer the green side of glasgow was just making te point of how loyal they are for there club that was all and that they would follow there team no matter wat is going on like wat lfc fans should be doing or are we just kidding are selves when we sing youll never walk alone at the start and end of every game

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