There was once was a glorious dream that was the 'The Liverpool Way'. A cherished ideal that transcended the inherent superficiality of football; a unifying philosophy that instilled an inalienable pride in its followers; a cherished set of principles that encapsulated everything that was admirable about Liverpool FC. Well, thanks to the Herculean hypocrisy and irretrievable ignorance of the Pro-Benitez Cult (and the fans the follow in their stead), that dream is almost dead.
After a mere a 4 months in charge, many fans are calling for Roy Hodgson to be sacked. These 'fans' - whipped into a frenzy by the insidious influence of the Pro-Benitez Cult - have been professionally and personally denigrating the man in every way possible, whilst completely ignoring the reality of his situation.
A recent example of this came earlier in the week, when one influential fan site posted an article titled 'End of an Error: Why Roy has to go". It was indicative of the reactionary, knee-jerk thought-process that has poisoned the thinking of fans this season, some of whom have been completely unfair towards Liverpool's manager.
The Ultimate Hypocrisy
Throughout Benitez's tenure, all we ever heard from his disciples were excuses about why he was unable to be successful, with the most common being the following:
* Hicks and Gillett as owners.
* Not enough money being provided for transfers.
* Having to sell in order to buy players.
* Working under an intolerable/uncertain ownership situation.
According to the Pro-Benitez Cult, nothing was ever Saint Benitez's fault; there was always a reason for his underachievement. And even after finished 7th in one of Liverpool's worst overall seasons for decades, the above reasons were constantly advanced to explain his underachievement.
Now, in an amazing about-face, none of the reasons for under-performance relentlessly used to defend Benitez apply to Roy Hodgson (!), even though he has had to operate under even more intolerable circumstances:
* The ownership situation was even more uncertain when Hodgson took over; Hicks and Gillett were still at the club; their was open warfare between Hicks, Gillet, Purslow and Broughton, and Hodgson had to try and sift through the wreckage of last season with all out civil war breaking out in the Anfield Boardroom.
* Momentous, distracting court cases that affected the very future of the club were taking place whilst Hodgson tried to pick up a demotivated team suffering a confidence crisis, and obviously unsettled by off-field events (and several players admitted as much)
* Hodgson also had to deal with a complete change of ownership, and all the internal turmoil/uncertainty/anxiety that brings (including speculation about so-called release clauses in his contract).
* And what about transfer spending? If you apply the spurious logic of the Pro-Benitez Cult, then Hodgson has ALSO had to sell-to-buy, has he not?! Liverpool sold Mascherano, and the total spent on Meirelles, Poulsen, Konchesky et al pretty much adds up to Mascherano's sale fee. This also means that Hodgson has a tiny net spend; again, using the twisted logic of the Cult, this means he's had no money to spend!
Well, it must do because this is PRECISELY what the Cult argues about Benitez. How can Hodgson prosper with no money to spend, a miniscule net spend, and having to buy to sell?!
Imagine the shitstorm of protest that would've erupted if Benitez was still in charge; we'd be hearing about how he had no money to spend; had to sell to buy; had to operate under intolerable conditions/court cases etc.
(I do not subscribe to buy-to-sell/net spend viewpoints above - I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of fans defending Benitez then failing to offer Hodgson the same time and understanding, despite him being in the same situation as Benitez)
That is why it is the ultimate hypocrisy: The Cult will excuse Benitez with the reasons advanced above but they will not apply the same reasoning to Hodgson; they expect him to just turn up, ignore everything going on and mould a fantastic team after 4 MONTHS IN THE JOB.
It's pathetic, and makes a mockery of the 'Liverpool Way', and the Liverpool FC fanbase.
No one is denying that Hodgson has made mistakes, but you simply cannot intelligently call for his head after 4 months.
The same pig-ignorant approach applies to Hodgson's signings, with Paul Konchesky and Christian Poulsen both been subjected to endless abuse. I've seen some Pro-Benitez Cultists argue that Poulsen is 'the worst player to ever play for Liverpool'.
Unbelievable. POULSEN HAS PLAYED 9 TIMES FOR LIVERPOOL. How can anyone form that opinion after 9 games?! And in those 9 games, Liverpool's record is:
W3
D4
L2
Unbeaten in 7 out of 9 games. Considering Poulsen's role is as DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, a key role in the team when it comes to PREVENTING THE TEAM FROM LOSING, then it would see that Poulsen is doing a pretty good job in that regards.
But this again is indicative of the Olympic-class ignorance of some of Liverpool's fans. They go around parroting negative soundbytes picked up on LFC message boards but if you asked them to back up their view with anything approaching a fair, coherent argument there would be deafening silence,
And before anyone tries to twist things: The Benitez situation is different; he was in charge for six years, and had enough time to build something at Anfield. Criticising the manager after that amount of time is perfectly acceptable, especially if the team is performing badly.
And I never once called for Benitez's head until the final few months of his reign. I specifically stated in several articles that he should NOT be sacked mid-season, and should only be sacked at the end of the 2009-10 season.
Calling for a Liverpool manager's head after 4 months whilst ignoring the context of his early reign is (IMO) utterly shameful, and anyone who has done that should feel ashamed.
You can always tell the unreasonable, ignorant anti-Hodgson fans - they will ridicule him in a personal manner by calling him 'Woy', and joke about his voice/physical appearance etc.
Is this what being a Liverpool fan is all about? Is this 'The Liverpool Way'?
As I said: shameful.
Fans should surely be supporting the Manager, especially as he'd only been in the job 4 months. Attacking the manager in such circumstances = attacking the club.
Thus, in my opinion, people calling for Hodgson's head *after 4 months* are anti-LFC.
Jaimie Kanwar
After a mere a 4 months in charge, many fans are calling for Roy Hodgson to be sacked. These 'fans' - whipped into a frenzy by the insidious influence of the Pro-Benitez Cult - have been professionally and personally denigrating the man in every way possible, whilst completely ignoring the reality of his situation.
A recent example of this came earlier in the week, when one influential fan site posted an article titled 'End of an Error: Why Roy has to go". It was indicative of the reactionary, knee-jerk thought-process that has poisoned the thinking of fans this season, some of whom have been completely unfair towards Liverpool's manager.
The Ultimate Hypocrisy
Throughout Benitez's tenure, all we ever heard from his disciples were excuses about why he was unable to be successful, with the most common being the following:
* Hicks and Gillett as owners.
* Not enough money being provided for transfers.
* Having to sell in order to buy players.
* Working under an intolerable/uncertain ownership situation.
According to the Pro-Benitez Cult, nothing was ever Saint Benitez's fault; there was always a reason for his underachievement. And even after finished 7th in one of Liverpool's worst overall seasons for decades, the above reasons were constantly advanced to explain his underachievement.
Now, in an amazing about-face, none of the reasons for under-performance relentlessly used to defend Benitez apply to Roy Hodgson (!), even though he has had to operate under even more intolerable circumstances:
* The ownership situation was even more uncertain when Hodgson took over; Hicks and Gillett were still at the club; their was open warfare between Hicks, Gillet, Purslow and Broughton, and Hodgson had to try and sift through the wreckage of last season with all out civil war breaking out in the Anfield Boardroom.
* Momentous, distracting court cases that affected the very future of the club were taking place whilst Hodgson tried to pick up a demotivated team suffering a confidence crisis, and obviously unsettled by off-field events (and several players admitted as much)
* Hodgson also had to deal with a complete change of ownership, and all the internal turmoil/uncertainty/anxiety that brings (including speculation about so-called release clauses in his contract).
* And what about transfer spending? If you apply the spurious logic of the Pro-Benitez Cult, then Hodgson has ALSO had to sell-to-buy, has he not?! Liverpool sold Mascherano, and the total spent on Meirelles, Poulsen, Konchesky et al pretty much adds up to Mascherano's sale fee. This also means that Hodgson has a tiny net spend; again, using the twisted logic of the Cult, this means he's had no money to spend!
Well, it must do because this is PRECISELY what the Cult argues about Benitez. How can Hodgson prosper with no money to spend, a miniscule net spend, and having to buy to sell?!
Imagine the shitstorm of protest that would've erupted if Benitez was still in charge; we'd be hearing about how he had no money to spend; had to sell to buy; had to operate under intolerable conditions/court cases etc.
(I do not subscribe to buy-to-sell/net spend viewpoints above - I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of fans defending Benitez then failing to offer Hodgson the same time and understanding, despite him being in the same situation as Benitez)
That is why it is the ultimate hypocrisy: The Cult will excuse Benitez with the reasons advanced above but they will not apply the same reasoning to Hodgson; they expect him to just turn up, ignore everything going on and mould a fantastic team after 4 MONTHS IN THE JOB.
It's pathetic, and makes a mockery of the 'Liverpool Way', and the Liverpool FC fanbase.
No one is denying that Hodgson has made mistakes, but you simply cannot intelligently call for his head after 4 months.
The same pig-ignorant approach applies to Hodgson's signings, with Paul Konchesky and Christian Poulsen both been subjected to endless abuse. I've seen some Pro-Benitez Cultists argue that Poulsen is 'the worst player to ever play for Liverpool'.
Unbelievable. POULSEN HAS PLAYED 9 TIMES FOR LIVERPOOL. How can anyone form that opinion after 9 games?! And in those 9 games, Liverpool's record is:
W3
D4
L2
Unbeaten in 7 out of 9 games. Considering Poulsen's role is as DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, a key role in the team when it comes to PREVENTING THE TEAM FROM LOSING, then it would see that Poulsen is doing a pretty good job in that regards.
But this again is indicative of the Olympic-class ignorance of some of Liverpool's fans. They go around parroting negative soundbytes picked up on LFC message boards but if you asked them to back up their view with anything approaching a fair, coherent argument there would be deafening silence,
And before anyone tries to twist things: The Benitez situation is different; he was in charge for six years, and had enough time to build something at Anfield. Criticising the manager after that amount of time is perfectly acceptable, especially if the team is performing badly.
And I never once called for Benitez's head until the final few months of his reign. I specifically stated in several articles that he should NOT be sacked mid-season, and should only be sacked at the end of the 2009-10 season.
Calling for a Liverpool manager's head after 4 months whilst ignoring the context of his early reign is (IMO) utterly shameful, and anyone who has done that should feel ashamed.
You can always tell the unreasonable, ignorant anti-Hodgson fans - they will ridicule him in a personal manner by calling him 'Woy', and joke about his voice/physical appearance etc.
Is this what being a Liverpool fan is all about? Is this 'The Liverpool Way'?
As I said: shameful.
Fans should surely be supporting the Manager, especially as he'd only been in the job 4 months. Attacking the manager in such circumstances = attacking the club.
Thus, in my opinion, people calling for Hodgson's head *after 4 months* are anti-LFC.
Jaimie Kanwar
always good to have super-supporters like you, telling the rest of the world how to behave.
ReplyDeleteno one can tell me how to be a supporter. i don´t care how other people support their team, and i expect them to let me do it my way. if I think Roy is wrong, I am entitled my opinion, just like you were with Rafa. I respect your view on the situation, but please don´t tell me what to think.
Hahahaha, you've set up a fan site.
ReplyDeletePlease be sure to tell John Henry about it when he invites you for lunch.
And by the way, what authority do *you* have to talk about Liverpool fans?
As if you have the slightest clue.
Not defending Torres from SAF
ReplyDeleteCalling Liverpool supporters disturbance.
Calling pedigree players wasteful and buying End of the year sales players with Mascherano money.
Being a lfc manager for only one good performance after in the job for 35years.
Being in the relegation zone and deserving to be there.
Whacked out in the Carling cup 1st round in Anfield.
I can go all day.....Month.....year...
Who is telling you what to think? I am giving my view about certain fans; if you don't like it, that's your problem. I haven't said 'you must think this way'. You say you are entitled to think Roy is wrong - yes, I don't dispute that. I am then also entitled to argue that people calling for his head are wrong, and that is exactly what I have done.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is NOT about people highlighting Hodgson's mistakes - do it. I have done the same. he makes mistakes. No one disputes that. It is about people calling for his head after 4 months in the job whilst completely ignoring the context of his reign. I think that is clear in the article.
I supported Benitez when he was in charge and have said with Hodgson we should at the very least wait until Christmas before we assess him (barring a major catastrophe of course) but the fact is that Benitez and Hodgson are different cases. To try and make out that they are so similar and we should consider it so when judging them ignores the many differences between them that inspire the difference of opinion.
ReplyDeleteThat said, Hodgson has been judged too harshly for a thankless task. I personally don't think that in the long term he is the man for the Reds, but I still think he deserves more respect in the meanwhile.
I can however understand fans qualms about him being at the helm in January should there be funds made available. The prospect of that complicates the situation.
Mr. Kanwar spends all his time beeing better than everyone else. I guess it´s lonely at the top, since he´s got all the time in the world to produce all these articles.
ReplyDeleteWhy is everything you write about Rafa Benitez. You try to make out the everyone that doesnt want Roy Hodgeson as manager is part of some Rafa cult. Which is very bizzare and NOT true.
ReplyDeleteLoads of People dont want Hodgeson as Liverpool manager but that doesnt mean they want Benitez either.
It sounds like you have an agenda with Benitez or something and that will always take away from any other point you are trying to make.
Most people dont think Roy is good enough to be Liverpool manager and its nothing to do with Benitez..
Benitez is no longer our manager so you should just move on. Most people dont consider him when judging what we think of our current manager.
Jacques - the only reaseon I bring Benitez into the equation is because the fans calling for Hodgson's head do so with reference to Benitez all the time ('This wouldn;t have happened if Benitez was here!" "benitez was a better manager' etc).
ReplyDeleteMy point is: I don´t need you to tell me when I shoiuld be ashamed of myself.
ReplyDeleteJust give Roy a chance and stop being so in-patient, ignroant and un-compassionate!
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between your site and the one you refer to.
ReplyDelete-He is about to publish his Nineth book on Liverpool/football.
-His work is extensive, well researched, balanced and insightful.
-You can't make any of these claims, because your just a bitter man
with an agenda, and extremely transparant.
If you've been calling for Hodgson to be sacked then you should be ashamed. That's my opinion. I'm entitled to it.
ReplyDeleteLook at fan forums; look at posts on other LFC sites. When discussing the subject o Hodgson, the one constant on every site is comparison with Benitez. Benitez did this; Benitez did that; this wouldn't have happened with Benitez etc. Please find me one article on any LFC site calling for Hodgson's head where Benitez is NOT mentioned.
ReplyDeleteGood luck.
It could be argued Rafa lost the respect/faith of liverpool players...but only after 5 years or so incharge.
ReplyDeleteIt could also be argued Roy has lost respect/faith of liverpool players within 4 months.
It could be argued the likes of Real/Milan/Barca would consider taking on Rafa in a permanent position.
It could also be argued if Roy was available none of these top european clubs would even take a look at Roy. I know he had a temporary role at inter years ago. But come on is there a hope in hell?
It could be argued there were better options out there than Rafa. Maybe Dalglish, Hiddink or possibly O'Neill. But not Roy.
Anyway i for 1 never really lost faith in Rafa. But i understood why he had to go. But it was under the presumption that we would get a world class manager.
How can you buy Poulsen from Juve and send Aquilani the other way???? Please explain.
Why spend 12 -13 million on Meireles when you already have Aquilani? Should the funds not be spent on a forward or left back? Then spend 6 million on Koncheski...come on.
My concern isn't that i don't think Roy is good enough. My concern is the players don't think he is good enough.
Hi Jamie good article. I would only agree with you to a point. As a young liverpool fan I have studied our history and the onething I feel Hodgson has failed to do is study our history. Benetiz used the history as a tool to get this rep with fans and that safeguarded his position. I do not agree with this rafa brigade now because rafas gone and I think its time to look to the future.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Hodgson is not the players he signed nor is the results. THe problem is with the liverpool way the fans look for a manager to give them inspiration believe a way of doing stuff. Hodgson has failed to connect with the fans and this is what is the Liverpool way.
Also one of the reasons a british manager was employed was that we lost the liverpool way with benetiz due to him doing alot of talking in the media. Well Hodgson has been doing alot of talking and I mean alot of talking which might be affecting his management.
I agree with your early posts that Hodgson is only hear for a year and the ultimate game is 4th position but as a liverpool fan I just want him to either shut up or say something to inspire the fans. After all you need to inspire the fans for them to turn up and make anfield a barren of noise.
Also as a middle man jamie your no better then the rafa brigade. You use to complain about rafa talking to much and now hodgson doing the same and it doesnt get a mention.
I disagree. Nazis should be ashamed of themselves. This is just about football.
ReplyDeleteJamie
ReplyDeleteThe ignorance is mind-boggling! POULSEN HAS PLAYED 9 TIMES FOR LIVERPOOL. How can anyone form that opinion after 9 games?! And in those 9 games, Liverpool's record is:<span></span>
Unbeaten in 7 out of 9 games. Considering Poulsen's role is as DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, a key role in the team when it comes to PREVENTING THE TEAM FROM LOSING, then it would see that Poulsen is doing a pretty good job in that regards.<span>
You just contradict yourself with those 2 sentances</span>
I agree with a lot of what u say but I really dont think poulsen is good enough and doubt we will see much more of him. Just beacause we scored 13/27 points while he was in the side (apparently this is good) is not evidence od anything
Have to agree with you Jaimie. What's worst is that these so-called supporters think they know everything and attack fellow supporters with differing views. Some even resort to name-calling and all sorts of abuse. This sort of behaviour while only a small minority tarnishes the good name of Liverpool supporters. I've supported the club for 34 long years and have always supported the incumbent manager. Unfortunately some fans these days don't even bother to give the manager the chance to turn things around while always harping on the need for a big name manager or big name players. Undeniably Rafa gave a lot to the club in terms of success especially against the scum but his constant airing of dirty laundry in the public is not the Liverpool way. I'm not pro-Hodgson or pro-Benitez, I'm pro-Liverpool. The club should always be bigger than the manager or the players. Perhaps I'm old fashioned and believe in courtesy and find the name-calling and insults unbecoming of fellow fans. Nowadays, anyone who disagree with a certain group are called traitors. I wonder if the same people will still be spouting hatred for Hodgson if the club goes on an unbeaten run? Have Liverpool supporters now become Liverpool militants? What happened to warm, kind and united fanbase that was reknowned throughout Europe? Has Hicks and Gillet taken that away? Rafa while a master tactician on the field has also manipulated fan support to gain an extended contract and more control at the club. I have nothing against the man but I feel Rafa has divided the supporters of the Mighty Reds while the hated pair of Hicks and Gillet have actually in a warped sense unified the fans. Unfortunately the division remains despite a change of owners. Sad but true. it breaks my heart to see Liverpool supporters turn on each other just because of different opinions. I appeal to all to respect each other's opinions and welcome the diversity whether you love Rafa or hate the man.
ReplyDeleteWow, Jamie. What is your agenda here? I'm guessing you and Paul came to literary blows over something some time ago. And since then, you are both vitual opposites in the way you view the managers.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if Hodgson was given the same length of time and measured with the same yardstick as the previous Liverpool manager, maybe things would come out different in the wash. But Paul chose his methods . . . which I believe are innovative and interesting . . . and his methods back his instincts.
Purely from an instinctual point of view. I've never been neutral on Roy's appointment, had reservations immediately, and felt straight away he was merely a "stop gap" put in place to try and hold together a club that was possibly going into severe financial decline. Now that the decline has been abated, and based on the tactics which we have observed from the past 10 - 11 games, I am full of dread that Roy will be given any additional time to work his ideas into the future of our club. His methods are ancient in terms of modern football (35 years of the same stuff based on his own account . . . tried and true? No. He has accomplished nothing of REAL reknown with his methods, other than shoring up teams that struggle for resources compared to other giants in football. In his travels, he really had only been given two teams that potentially had the resources to compete at the top level during the day (Inter Milan, and Blackburn) and his results were deemed poor at best/catastrophic at worst.
Instinctually, I am horrified by our tactics, frustrated at our results, and in imagining the type of players he wants to bring to the club to feed his solid and unspectacular hoof and chase antics-- afraid at what Liverpool would turn in to after 6 years.
So . . . What did you and Paul come to blows over?
How is it a contradiction?
ReplyDelete* I said 'how can anyone for THAT opinion' (THAT = Poulsen is the worst player ever to play for Liverpool).
* I then stated the facts: Liverpool is unbeaten in 7 out of 9 games with Poulsen in the team. Does that mean nothing? Could it not be that LFC's attack is not doing the business, something that Poulsen has very little to do with...?
Your defintely a United fan on a piss take, never seen anyone critized his fellow fans so much. If by some miracle you are a Liverpool fan you are a disgrace.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the rationale behind buying Konchesky and Poulsen. Letting Aqua go. We saw he was injured. So was Bosingwa and Zirkov. Chelsea didnt send them away and buy 30 year old trash. Meireles i understand has it.....Who sanctioned these. Why sign up Carragher on an extension. Can he be traded for 20 mill, what is his value as a player....IS it any surprise our defense is better when he isn't in the middle. I undetand what John Henry thinks. He doesn't trust Woy with transfer policy. He is taking toys from Woy one at a time. Soon, he will be coaching the girls team at Anfield...
ReplyDeleteyou're forgetting some major issues here.......the team has been playing atrocious under Woys outdated 4.4.2 !
ReplyDeleteresults have come back because we are back to a similar, but not quite exact, 4.2.3.1 that was expolited to the full by Rafa. and what happens, Torres scores !
all we ask as supporteres is a team of players capable of competing. but getting tanked by Man City, being embarrassed by Blackpool and Northampton and then listen to the rub talk of B teams and blaming the previous regime for this seasons short comings is utter tripe. and then say we played well in the derby defeat to everton !! utter b******s.
then sending players of the calibre of Aqualini and Insua out on loan for nowt have totally bemused me. and when you consider £10,000,000 was outlayed on Koncheskey and Poulsen !! and the main reason (that every man on the street knew) for last seasons failings had still not been addressed.... we'd no support striker for Torres !!?!!?! wtf ? how simple is keep Aqualani, dont buy Meireles and buy a striker with £12million ?!?
and dont get me started on not playing Agger !!
Roy brought the worst start in over 50 years on the club by his own actions and winning 2 games on the bounce does not disguise these shortcomings. it was Blackburn and Bolton who each had 4 first team regulars missing for crying out loud, it was hardly Real Madrid !!!
ask any Fulham fan, would they rather have Woy back or continue with Mark Hughes? and you can bet the answer is to stick with Hughes !! what does that say for Liverpool ?!!?!!!
Only on this site run by a particularly obsessed Manc...
ReplyDeleteyep but we should support him till end of season or till christmas at least.
ReplyDeleteThis is all the wrong there to much negativety and I dont blame fans only I blame hodgson to.
...so why not be different to those sites? what has your opinion got to do with all these sites?
ReplyDeletenowt.
They're perfectly entitled to say Benitez was a better manager, as he was.
ReplyDeleteThey're also perfectly entitled to compare Roy to his predecessor as that's what we have to compare him with.
Well surely such a consensus of opinion should tell you that maybe you and your minority is incorrect. In the democratic society in which we live it's the majority that matters I'm afraid.
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or has this site gone peachy? Also I think you're becoming just a tiny lttle bit obsessed.
ReplyDeleteI will endulge you momentarily. The Rafa Cult (as you call them) only appears when you critise Rafa. The Rafa cult is reactionary. It only raises it head in defence of what many feel is unwarrented critisism of a manager many feel did a great job with LFC. Does it exist if you dont critise Rafa? No, it fades away. The only person fanning the flames of the Rafa Cult is you. No one else is interesting in banging on about Rafa positevely or negatively other than you.
Seems to me you've created an imaginary arch enemy, a adversery if you will, who you will now soundly thrash with your intelligent brain and wit. Good luck to you. Hope the new site goes well. Or you could just let it go, and I bet you the Rafa cult will disappear to.
In Rafa we trust. Opps.
Hey Guys what we need now is everybody behind the team,yes we have a few issues but it is support we need for the team and the present management. ynwa
ReplyDeleteHi uskopite - We didn't come to blows over anything. There was one incident about 3 years ago that informed by view of Mr Tomkins. I posted a comment on one of his articles on his old site. Non-confrontational; polite; simply asking where he got the transfer figures he was using in that particular article.
ReplyDeleteHe deleted my comment; posted another comment personally deinigrating me and this site. Ever since then, he has regularly slagged me off on Twitter in a personal manner.
All of this was completely unprovoked.
Such behaviour speaks volumes about a person. He was completely out of order, and as a result of that, I have no respect for his views.
You call his methods 'innovative' - fair enough, that's your view. However, some of his 'methods' i.e. the way he calculates transfer spending - are irresponsible and completely inaccurate, and obviously designed specifically to favour Benitez.
Look at his conclusions re Benitez: 225m spent; 282m recouped (or recoupable in the future)
Is this a fair way to judge Benitez's spending?! it compleely contradicts the actual amounts in the club's accounts, yet he still peddles these figures because he can use them to laud Benitez.
I think that is intellectually dishonest - he is passing those figures off as fact, and people then go around spouting that Benitez only spent 225m.
Anyway - I will be posting something soon going through that 'system', and illustrating why it is flawed and inaccurate.
So we are to give Poulsen, Konchesky and Hodgson time then. Remind me again of your views of Joe Cole before he ever even kicked a ball for us? Herculean hypocrisy is correct, although just not as you intended. Your opinion of Joe Cole makes you anti-LFC. Your logic after all.
ReplyDeleteSo we are to give Poulsen, Konchesky and Hodgson time then. Remind me again of your views of Joe Cole before he ever even kicked a ball for us? Herculean hypocrisy is correct, although just not as you intended. Your opinion of Joe Cole makes you anti-LFC. Your logic after all.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm not actively asking for roy's head at this point in time I don't think I'd be disappointed if he were to leave, his tactics are very rafa-esque still playing 2 holding mids at home, and seemingly ignoring what's happening on the pitch, making changes even later than rafa did, and yes when we inevitably change to a 442 formation with 20 min left we tend to play better yet he seems to learn nothing from this, his decision to prioritise getting another midfielder instead of a striker this summer was another rafa-esque moment....I guess I'm just disillusioned with what he's done so far, but im happy to wait to see what he can do in the jan window before making a final judgement
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Poulsden has very little to do with attack is part of the problem, Mascherano,Lucas,Haman have all offered way more in attack.
ReplyDeleteIt appears that even Roy Hodgson, the man who signed him, has lost faith in him
Paul konchesky is not good enough either and i dont see any kind of long term future for him, left back is clearly one of our weaknesses.
I can't understand why you are so desperate to ddefend thtese players when they have clearly been found wanting
Irrespective to what Hodgson has done and how much he's to blame for the team being where it shouldn't be, insulting him or calling for his head after 4 months is not the Liverpool way.
ReplyDeleteI usually don't like saint theories of 'ways', although there definitely has been a moral codex for Liverpool supporters that is being demolished by impatient 'fans'.
I'm not disputing that. Thus, when I used Benitez in my defence of Hodgson, I am entitled to do that. Jacques was asking why I talk about Benitez when defending Hodgson. I explained why.
ReplyDeleteRight. Once upon a time the majority supported slavery. I guess that was correct too, right?
ReplyDeleteUntil the early 90s, it was still legal to rape your wife in the UK; that was a legal rule decided by a majority. I guess that was right too?
Just because a majority decided something doesn't make it the most important or right thing.
As a Fulham fan ... Please let us have Roy back!!! Please!!! You just don't know how lucky you are!!
ReplyDeleteHey, that's your view and you're entitled to it. I'm not going to argue. I think Joe Cole is a mercenary who is only in it for the money.
ReplyDeleteI would say there was probably a 50-50 split for Rafa. For Roy it is more like 95-5.
ReplyDeleteI will support him til Christmas.
But lets face it...he is not good enough.
I hope he proves me wrong.
Hodgson plays defensive... not the liverpool way... needs to be replaced as soon as poss... else we get stuck in that defensive mentallity
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Poulsden has very little to do with attack is part of the problem, Mascherano,Lucas,Haman have all offered way more in attack. <span></span>
ReplyDeleteYou're kidding, right?!
Please post the goals/assists recordds for those three players. Quantify your assertion with some kind of evidence.
And Konchesky is a LEFT BACK. A defender. Since when is it his job to spend loads of time attacking?
And Benitez never played defensively, did he? He never had a reputation as a cautious manager with a preference for defensive solidity over attacking expression. He would never field a team featuring 8 defensive players, or play left backs in central midfield, or anything like that, would he? his teams didn't churn out 24 league draws in two seasons as a result of this defensive approach, did they?
ReplyDeleteThe mind boggles.
And why shouldn't we compare our current manager to our previous manager? Rafa is still fresh in the memory so of course comparisons are going to be made. Were comparisons made between Mancini and Hughes? Yes. Will Villa fans be comparing Houllier and MON? Of course they will. Will Fulham fans be making comparisons between Hodgson and Hughes. Yes. Its completely natural to do so.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair the majority of the comments criticising Roy on this website are talking about what's happening on the pitch and what he says in interviews/press conferences. In my opinion, most Liverpool fans, were willing to give Roy a chance but the worst start in 57 years put an abrupt end to that I'm. Some would say it harsh but it is also understandable. No matter what was going on behind the scenes, forgetting all the arguments about gross/net spend, sell to buy policies and all the other things that we could argue endlesssly on, the fact was that it was the worst start to a season a Liverpool manager had had in 57 years. Of course people are going to complain about it.
Roy would have been afforded the luxury of time by the majority of fans had he shown that he was getting it right on the pitch. We're not takling about scintillating football here, just getting the basics right. No-one expected him to be challenging for the league but no-one expected only 3 wins out of 10 games either. Even in the games we have won we have looked poor. I'll take anything at the moment, a win is a win, and I;m willing to give Roy til Christmas before making my judgement but from what I've seen so far it isn't great. But I suppose it can only get better.
And as much as I would like to give Poulson and Konschesky a chance, I've seen enough football in my time to know that they are not very good. They're ok but are they any better than what we already had. Is Poulsen better than Lucas. No. Is Konchesky that much better than a young and in experienced but potentially good Insua. Not really. Its unfair to pick on Roy's first couple of buys but they were hardly inspiring.Had they been Rafa's buys we wouldn't have heard the end of it from you. I like Meireles though.
"
When Rafa Benitez signed Glen Johnson in Summer 2009, I argued at the time that it was a waste of money, for a player that Liverpool (arguably) didn't need.
Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/09/glenn-johnson-still-gigantic-waste-of.html#ixzz14F3wiOJ7"So for you to claim that Johnson was a waste of money is ok, but for other fans to claim that Poulsen is a waste of money is unfair because he's only played a few games. Interesting logic. I also seem to remember you complain about the Aquilani transfer days after it happened. Was he given a chance, regardless of whether he was injured.
Your obsession with proving this made-up cult wrong is slightly worrying.
how simple is keep Aqualani, dont buy Meireles and buy a striker with £12million ?!? <span>
ReplyDelete</span>
I agree with the first part.
Not sure about the buy a striker with 12mill. It will cost a bit more. Maybe add up another 6 for koncheski and 4 for poulsen. Making it 22mill.
Keep Insua. Use Lucas (who looks better than Poulsen).
Spot on!
ReplyDeleteFor me, Roy blew it during the derby. Making his first sub, at 2-0 down on 73 minutes. Disgraceful. And then making two more separate subs - like we were winning and he was winding down the clock. He has got two wins recently by finally dropping Paulsen and bringing Lucas back and then when Cole got injured, his hand was forced and Ngog changed the game. I've been cringing during games this season. Also, I don't like how he talks to the media more than he needs to. His friendship with purple nose. And the way he accepted that he expects offers for Torres and it will be hard to keep him!!! Bring back Rafa!!!!
So are you now equating slavery and rape with supporting Rafa??? JK, I hate to say it mate, but you've lost it.
ReplyDeleteYes, Gary - that's what i was doing.
ReplyDeleteGet real. That's not it at all. The point being discussed in that exchange is the notion that majority rule is always correct. It has nothing to do with football.
Buy you knew that. You just tried to make it seem like something it wasn't.
See, this is where it all gets very silly with you. People are anti-LFC for not wanting Hodgson at the club (i am one of them, he has done nothing to prove to me he is a Liverpool standard manager before or after joining us). Certain players are to be given time by you and others aren't (Poulsen vs Cole). All because you claim Cole is a mercenary. Have you any proof to back this assertion?
ReplyDeleteYou wrote yesterday that you felt that Roy Hodgson wouldn't be at Liverpool after the summer, even if he delivered top 4. This was because, the next cycle of Liverpool development would occur - in your eyes. So what you are saying there is that Roy isn't going to be good enough to take us to the next level but you lambast anyone else that has made that decision also, only difference being that we want rid now. You can see it, we can see it. You even cited a possible successor as Pelligrini (who is idle presently).
The fella hasn't been given much time but (and it is a big but) in the time he has been here, he hasn't done one thing that makes me believe he is up to the job. I am not alone by any means. It has nothing to do with Rafa Benitez and everything to do with Roy Hodgson. There are better managers presently available, why wait.
Wow Jaimie, God knows what slavery and rape have to do with Liverpool Football Club but nevertheless your comments on history are incorrect and unfounded.
ReplyDeleteNot that it matters but slavery was abolished far before the UK had a democratic government, back before nationwide elections when the balance of power was to the minority funnily enough ('the top 10% of society').
As for your rape comment, that is sort of true but the issues with that were the difficulties in proving such an offence, also the law come comes under case law so it is naturally progressive and not legislative.
Hope all your comments aren't that poorly researched.
Why are you making it about Rafa? It is about Roy. The poster is correct, he is defensive (and he never mentioned Benitez). You regularly write about how you hate defensive football, so why the support for a defensive manager? What are Roy's stats, does he play expansive football? Clearly no. Not at Liverpool and not at Fulham.
ReplyDelete.
Why are you making it about Rafa? It is about Roy. The poster is correct, he is defensive (and he never mentioned Benitez). You regularly write about how you hate defensive football, so why the support for a defensive manager? What are Roy's stats, does he play expansive football? Clearly no. Not at Liverpool and not at Fulham.
ReplyDelete.
Why are you making it about Rafa? It is about Roy. The poster is correct, he is defensive (and he never mentioned Benitez). You regularly write about how you hate defensive football, so why the support for a defensive manager? What are Roy's stats, does he play expansive football? Clearly no. Not at Liverpool and not at Fulham.
ReplyDelete.
No - it's not that Hodgson is not good enough; it's about the ability to build a dynasty and do this over a number of years. Hodgson is too old to do that. If Liverpool are going to have consistency in the long term we needed a younger manager; someone who can be in a position to build something for the long-term.
ReplyDeleteI did not cite Pellegrini - I think you have me confused with someone else.
And again, you ignore the context of Hodgson's reign so far. You say he hasn't done anything to prove he's up to the jo; look at the pressures he's beein working under (which i outline in the article).
If we just take Benitez's last season as an example, you could argue in isolation that he was not up to the job, couldn't you?!
The point is though, last season does not define Benitez's entire reign, does it? Similarly, Hodgson's first 4 months should not be used in isolation to condemn him.
Having perused your sight on numerous occasions I have yet to agree with 95% of what you say as a minimum.
ReplyDeleteSometimes you seem to have an agenda the belies an LFC supporter, let alone a fan. Roy Hodgson has today come out and apologised to Rafa Benitez, which given the timeline of comments was quite right, correct and the manly thing to do. By comparison, from reading your previous articles, this is something you seem reluctant, and at times incapable of doing.
You should try it sometime Mr Kanwar, you may just feel a small weight lift from your shoulders.
Your obsessionally spurious comments and articles relating to LFC are heavily biased towards your own warped view and are slightly troubling as they seem to be getting more and more aggressive in their tone. Do you not worry that your ramblings are coming across this way?
I am amazed that you are even going to the extent of setting up an 'Benitez Cult' website! If this is not a significant pointer towards detrimentally obsessive behaviour then I suggest your mirror is broken and Argos may be your best port of call, swiftly followed by a session at Thingwall Hall.
You ARE a special person Jamie but you must first begin to love your self before others begin to love you.
Get Rafa, our greatest manager for 20 years back as boss. Join the Facebook group 'we want Rafa back at Liverpool FC.
ReplyDeleteDo it today and pass it on. He deserves our loyalty.
Try to leave Rafa out of it, if you will. Jeez always banging on about him, it is like you are in some kind of cult. (insert smiley). This is about Roy.
ReplyDeleteI take your point about needing a younger manager to build a dynasty, i agree and believe it is what we need also. That, however, doesn't mean we should have to put up with substandard management until we recruit that man. Yes Roy has had pressures to work with but he has claimed himself that the scrutiny he is placed under at LFC has taken him by surprise. In addition, his off the field performances scream 'small club manager'. The man took an underperforming team and has regressed them further. I am genuinely fearful of the prospect of him being given a transfer budget in January. Why should we wait, it could be catastrophic.
You can't legitimately call fans who want rid of Hogson 'Anti-LFC'.
Liverpool's way is an ascendent idea of famili Club, We can assess a list of concepts which created the Liverpool's way:
ReplyDelete1) Support the Man in Charge because He's a man alone, and in any time, He's the only entitled to to get the Club out of the storm because He's the man in charge
2) Players, manager, staff They will never walk alone
3) Stick together
4) Do not point the finger against one man alone, but You must always think waht You can do for the Club as supporter
That not means Liverpool's way do not contemplate any kind of observations or critycal analysis, anyone He's entitled to have an opinion, to have their thoughts, but LIVERPOOL'S WAY DOESN'T CONTEMPLATE THE CHARACTER ASSASSINATIONS PROFESSIONALY MADE BY "SO-CALLED FANS" AGAINST ONE MAN ALONE IN CHARGE FROM FOUR MONTHS, A NICE PERSON WHO DESERVES A PROPER CHANCE TO PROVE HIS VALUE.
THEY ARE DESTROYING 50 YRS OF LIVERPOOL'S WAY, A PERIOD IN WHICH LIVERPOOL'S FAN WERE ALWAYS BEEN REGARDED AS CLASSY AND SENSITIVE FANS.
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i think a season should be given to Roy considering everything or at least till december. Its a good thing that he is not in charge of transfers because frankly he is not good at it. If he can bring the club back on its feet then he will win the support of the fans. Thats the only way for him or for any other manager.
ReplyDeleteBut we need to be patient with him. The games till the end of december will throw some light on wether he has learned and improved his tactics. If he continues to make the same mistakes and not deliver, then he has to go. It is that simple. It has happened to the best of managers and definitely will happen to him. Also he should stop saying stupid things in press conferences :)
Rafa is in the past so its time to move on! We as fans are entitled to our opinions as are you. I like the majority of fans feel that Roy isn't capable of taking this club forward. You have to agree the style of football that we've played since he took over is not a standard that we are used to.
ReplyDeleteSpot On Jamie.
ReplyDeleteSpot On.
Hi All, I first saw Liverpool play as a kid in 1959 and have followed them ever since a season ticket since they were brought in in the 1960s and still have it today. When the bootroom ended with the resignation of Kenny, thats when we went into decline as records can prove, up to then we had been spoilt with proberbly the greatest managers to grace the English league, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Joe Fagen and not forgetting Kenny who carried on the tradition of trophy winning for fun! unfortunatley when Souness arrieved he got shut of world class players who still had a few years left and replaced them with alehouse footballers Dicks Ruddock etc. The Manager who started to turn us round was Gerrard Houlier, although we did not win the league he started us on the road to success which included a treble of KO trophys. When he went Rafa was appointed and make no mistakes he did build us into a far better club just look at his record, yes he did make some bad signings but he had to build a large squad to compete on all fronts He also made some very good signings. He did play some defencive football when required but i have never seen a Liverpool midfield as far back as ours at present. Everybody has an opionion but i think you should let this go Jaimie, i can you i did like Rafa and what he achieved i will always be gratefull for the greatest moment in my footballing life which was istanbul. I like Roy Hodgeson as a manager and as a person but you can see already he is flustered with the press and i am almost certain he will not be with us long term. Our biggest problem has been the owership saga now that its over and we have the basis of a good team which we have lets hope Roy signs some quality forwrd in January because we need one, with what i have seen i know that Poulson and Konchelsky are not good enough and do not forget in the Konchelsky deal two of our promising kids were included both getting rave reviews at Fulham I do like Raul in fact he is class so folks thats all and dont forget like him or not Rafa was a very good manager and he should only be thanked for what he achieved for us the fans.
ReplyDeleteKB - it is obvious why. Having conversed with Elvis in the past I know that he is very much a Benitez supporter. He then bemoans defensive football as 'not the Liverpool way', yet he supported Benitez with the *same* style of football, and I'll bet he never once called for his head as a result.
ReplyDeleteIt's called hypocrisy.
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ReplyDelete"I did not cite Pelligrini, perhaps you have me confused with someone else".
Panic stations! sack Hodgson - 3 days ago - 23.44. "There are plenty of managers out there with the potential to do well for Liverpool and Pelligrini, Rijkard et all are among them".
If that isn't you mentioning Pelligrini as a possible successor, then someone is using your log in.
Yours,
Not confused.
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Substandard management?
ReplyDeleteUnder Hodgson, Liverpool have played 18, won 8, drawn 6 and lost 4. That is 77% of games unbeaten. That is a fact. How can that possibly be labelled 'substandard management'? Why don't you try being fair?
You dismiss the arguably intolerable pressure he has been under but I remember you vividly using the same arguments to defend Benitez's poor form last season on this site.
Hodgson has lost 4 games only. Big deal! Benitez lost 14 league games in his first season. 14! Was that evidence of substandard management? or was it merely Benitez getting used to the Premier League, perhaps?
In my view, fans who actively call for Hodgson's head in ignorance of the facts and the context of his reign to date are Anti-LFC. The club appointed him; gave him their faith, and now the fans are saying the club was wrong; no, negligent. And based on what?! premature condemnation of players who played 6 games for the club?! A few dodgy tactical decision? 4 defeats in 18 games?
It's a disgrace.
I said he had the potential to do well along with 'plenty of other managers' - I wasn't specifically saying 'I choose Pellegrini as the manager I want to take over from Hodgson'.
ReplyDeleteHypocrisy eh? Your thoughts on Benitez' defensive football are well documented. Is that style ok now he isn't in charge?
ReplyDeleteYou do realise that practically everything you level at people, you are culpable for also.
And another thing you should consider: you state that Hodgson's management has been substandard, right?
ReplyDeleteWell: Benitez first 18 games in charge were WORSE than Hodgson's.
Hodgson: won 8, drew 6, lost 4.
Benitez: Won 9, ldrew 3, lost 6
I think even you will agree that losing games is always a negative. Benitez lost one third of his opening 18 games.
Using your logic, he was guilty of substandard management too, no?
Were you calling for Benitez's head too?
In fact, I think I will write an article highlighting this specific point.
Where have I sai that I agree with Hodgson's defensive football? Playing defensively is still no reason to sack someone after 4 months. Playing defensively after SIX YEARS - that IS a valid reason to sack someone.
ReplyDeleteExactly. As in 'you cited a possible successor', which is what i said.
ReplyDeleteNever wrong are you?
I was a big fan of Benitez' and I didn't want him to leave... Additionally I have visited this blog a number of times and found myself being wound up by your writing - the reasons for which are not relevant for the purposes of this post.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you that the treatment of Hodgson by 'fans' has been totally shocking.
Gary - I agree; there is no problem with comparing managers...except when I do it of course. People regularly tell me to 'leave Benitez in the past' and 'I shouldn't be focusing on him' etc. So why is it alright for everyone else to compare the two, but not me?
ReplyDeleteSimple: people only want to hear a flattering comparison. As soon as they hear something that doesn't fit with their view of Benitez it's suddenly no longer pokay to compare managers.
Hilarious really.
You should.
ReplyDeleteIf this site needs anything, it is most definitely another article about Rafa Benitez.
In terms of your point though, it was visible to all that there was progress being made. Performances were good if results weren't always. Monaco at home being one example. Coming back from a goal down vs City for the first time that a Liverpool side had done it in about 2 years. Etc. Etc.
Now i am annoyed at myself as you have me talking about Rafa when i have clearly stated my opinion of Roy is nothing to do with him.
These Rafa cultists eh?
No.
ReplyDeleteOk, I think Inter had a better manager last year than this year.
ReplyDeleteHave you looked at Roy's teams in the past? Expansive free flowing football it ain't. You crave that, i understand it - we all do. We aren't going to get it from this guy. It isn't just 4 months.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, didn't he mention at a press conference that his methods have worked from Fulham-Inter-lots of scandanavian team that i can't remember and that he isn't going to change now.
Actually he did, i watched it.
And Konchesky is a LEFT BACK. A defender. Since when is it his job to spend loads of time attacking?<span>
ReplyDelete</span>
Really? Well Ashley Coles phone number is 0789.........
Well you were there.
ReplyDeleteToo right Jamie. We need to give this team a chance. Things are looking up. And insulting the manager at this stage means we are just anti LFC. I hate the attitude of most of our fans lately.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for Tomkins, he isnt worth the energy typing, but since we are on the topic, the mans a tool. No class. Fake liverpool fan. So what if he met benitez, and now Henry? So what? It does not mean you can write an article llike the one you mentioned above.The mans head is so far up his own arse therefore he just chats pure shit. I've read all his books, and they are ok i must say, but his articles on his website and his attitude in general is laughable. I remember when he started his pay site, he wrote complaining about some disease and how he had to start his own pay site and people are such mugs that they actually paid to read his crap! And sure enough, anyone who disagrees with him gets banned!!! He's still crying over Benitez leaving, who has inherited a double winning side at Inter, lucky sod. Hodgson has inherited a club which was in ruins, didnt we finish 6th? After 5 years under Rafa? Thats pathetic.
YNWA
In a year or Two when Fergie, Wenger and Ancellotti all retire, will the big three be on the phone to Roy Hodgson? ..no. That is all i am saying.
ReplyDeleteWhen Rafa joined us it was off the back of beating Barcelona and Real Madrid to the spanish title and winning the uefa cup. Morinho joined chelsea in the same year of the back of winning the treble, Ancelloti won the lot with AC Milan. Is it fair to say that winning the title in Sweden and Norway is not going to fill us with glee, i'd say yes. Is it fair to say that the signings of three has beens has been a major let down and given us an incite as to how Hodgson wants to do business, again i'd say yes.
All we ask as fans is that we replace replace Rafa with someone equal to or better than him. There would be a flippin riot if Tony Pulis was the next manager of Man Utd. Why is this difficult to fatham?
Hi Jamie - not sure that I agree whole-heartedly with you argument. As you probably know by now, I am one of those who do not feel satisfied with Hodgson. Nevertheless, I think that your sentiment is correct, it is probably about time that those of us who are dissatisfied began to put our energies towards supporting the team and manager that we have. Its not going to change, and we need to start building confidence. I am not a fan of Poulson either, but my complaint is not so much that he is the worst player ever - there are currently many contenders for that role, lets be honest, and a good few of them Rafa brought in. But he was not a good purchase for the fact that he was not cheap, and not young. Not necessarily a bad buy, but not a Wenger-esque type purchase that NESV would want. When bargain hunting, Maxi and the Greek seem better purchases, IMO.
ReplyDeleteJust a quick note - in my understanding the role of defensive mid is most definately connected to the lack of fire-power up front. When used properly, the defensive mid is NOT a defensive player, but a gathering player, distributing forward to the wingers and the attacking mids. Sure he needs to have a strong defensive role, hard tackling etc - hence Masch was so good. And when played with flying wide backs then that is more important. But I just wanted to add that when playing a formation with defensive mids, the attack can only work if they do their job. A pivotal role actually.
Anyway, thanks once again for the challenging article
Well said, couldnt agree more strongly with that post. Seems some supporters follow Benitez more than LFC. The biggest joke is when they make out as though their Rafa will be back someday.. No one in the premiership will touch him with a bargepole.
ReplyDeleteKB he has a point. People have been very unfair to Roy. The facts are there. His record is better than benitez's when you look at their respective starts for LFC.
ReplyDeleteOk Roy is no Mourinho, commanding respect, and is easy to put down as he is like a grand dad figure, just a old man to most, but if you look past that crap, he is a very experienced manager, who should be given his chance as Paisley was. What did Paisley do before he took over? He was second fiddle to Shanks. Roy's been the main man wherever he has gone. We should respect that. And have a little faith. He will succeed at LFC. He's been left a club which was going downhill fast, and he has improved our style of play the last 2 weeks.
I was actually joking but obvioulsy you've become so defensive in recent weeks that you take everything seriously. Next time I'll make sure to add a smiley.
ReplyDeletePeople forget that at Valencia, he inherited a fantastic team left by one Hector Cuper, he reached the champions league final twice with Valencia. He pushed to that next level, but the foundations were already there. Benitez nearly did it 2 years ago, but that was as far as he was going to go. Trying to sell Alonso for Barry was a stupid move...and publicly at that. Aquilani Dossena were big money flops as was Ryan Babel who cant even get a seat on the bloody bench! And we talk about Poulsen who was a Masch replacement with what he had to spend.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is Jaimie, like you have said yourself in a recent article, Hodgson is a short term appointment brought in to steady the sale process.
ReplyDeleteNow that the sale is complete why waste any more time and money sticking with a short term manager when we need to start buildng for the future now.
Regardless of anti Rafa or pro Rafa, the truth is every Liverpool fan you included wants to see a long term appointment of a top young manager as soon as possible. So why wait? If Hodgson spends money in January and ships out players it could all be in vain because when we appoint a new long term manager we will have to start all over again with more money and more new players.
So the sooner Hodgson is sacked the better for ALL fans and better for LFC.
It is well documented how you feel about net and gross spend.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, we have to ask ourselves if, given his resources (cash + whatever you can get for the player you are trying to replace) did he improve the team to fit his tactics.
I think consistently he did. He may have spent more (which is hugely debatable and never black and white), net or gross than other top managers, but in the end . . . he tended to get value for his money, and parlayed it into players that better fit his tactics. Some have been begging for sexier football, a return to this mythical pass and move tactic from yesteryear. That was obviously NOT Rafa's methods or intentions. Simply put, if it were that easy . . . every team would do it, but it takes great planning, a dump truck of money, or elite youth programs putting out top players in bunches to get those types of tactics to work. Maybe Rafa's tactics would never have been enough to overhaul the top teams, no matter what resources he was given, but he got awfully damn close - and with 10m a season to spend (and recouping much more than that in prize money) Rafa managed to put the fox amongst the hens year on year (excepting his fatal last season). And in that time, we were dominant in Europe, competitive in the league, and his era of football easily deserves the respect not to be labled "wasteful" and "flop".
I think it is fair to discuss money's recoup-able in the future. It's near impossible to put exact figures on it, but the conclusions are obvious, and are SOLID business practices. If you buy better bathroom fixtures, knock down the right wall, and make your kitchen modern and look bigger, the money you pump into your home can increase the resale value greatly. It is property value waiting to be realized. And growing businesses pump their profits back into the business because the more you re-invest and improve, the more valuable and saleable your business becomes. Why shouldn't they credited to the person(s) who made the improvements.
Do you feel you are anti-Benitez? Anti-Tomkin's? You come across as both. I read your blog to get an opposing view, but I find I often disagree with the conclusions drawn from your facts. You do good research (better than 90% of bloggers) but then ruin it all by getting over excited about how others react to that. You have some good debates, but ruin your case by constantly reacted to negative posts.
It's actually 8 wins, 5 draws and 5 losses in Roy's first 18 games.
ReplyDeleteI think its he nature of the games rather than the results. A 0-0 vs Birmingham in whcih we were unbelievably negative.
A bit of a thrashing from Man City in which our tactics and formation were naive at best.
Losing to Blackpool, a newly promoted team were actually the better team at Anfield.
One up against Sunderland and then completely losing it. We were lucky to get anything out of that game.
West Brom- a win but another poor performance against a newly promoted team.
Losing to Everton and another poor performance. Not making substitiutions until 78 minutes into the game. I tought Rafa left it late but usually by 65 miinutes he'd make a change.
Even the win against Bolton was a little lucky.
As I've said I'm giving Hodgson til Christmas but its been pretty poor so far, even the wins haven't been great. I'll take a bad win but other than our performance against Blackburn we've not seen any good football.
I for one never wanted Hodgson the get the job, i know it is easy to say now. I never beleived that he was a great manager and still can't understand how a person can win the manager of the year with just one away win in the league in the season. He had a very bad record in away games with his previous clubs in the english league and as we all know a team needs a decent away record to get into the top 4. Saying his the right man to steady the ship is rubbish, it smacks of defeatism and lack of ambition.The british media wanted a British manager in charge of Liverpool and this was the main thing Hogson had going for him.Would Chelsea, united,city,arsenal or any other top team in europe hire him NO and the reason for that is because he is not good enough. I beleive the reason liverpool fans still talk about Rafa is because he has done it at the highest level and sacking (call it what you like) him for not getting into the champions league was a knee jerk reaction and then replacing him with a man who with hogsons league record no chance of getting into the top 4 was insulting to the club and fans.
ReplyDeleteBLOODY HELL, ONE AWAY WIN ALL SEASON =-O
ReplyDeleteVery nice point SG8.
ReplyDeleteI'm totally agree.
I have "nostalgia" of the good old times when the majority of LFC Fans don't turned down the Man in Charge after 8 games, but They showed faith and respect for the man in charge.
Now Some fans called for the Roy's head in a ridicoulous knee - jerk reaction.
Now Some fans want only BIG NAME, Manager with BIG CV ecc ecc ecc.
Yes, for sure SG8.
Good point: What did Bob Paisley, THE TRUE LEGEND (AND NOT RAFA) do before he took over???? And Shank??
I really love Liverpool Football Club SG8, thanks to the people like You.
You ignore the big picture.
ReplyDeleteOnly two months ago, We were in turm-oil: uncertainty over ownership, no transfer funds and We should say "THANKS" to Mister Hodgeson, because He's the only Man Who has had the courage to say Yes to Liverpool's offer.
When You costantly split against Hodgson, maybe <span>You deliberately ignore the fact that Mister Roy was one of the main contenders for England's Job</span>, which remains, regarding to any facts, the big reward for english managers.
When Roy say "YES" to Liverpool, plenty of the so-called BIG NAMES You desperately want at Anfield, Rjkaard, Hiddink, Mourinho, Pellegrini, Lippi They were all approached for the Job by Purslow, but They decided to decline the offer because They didn't have "THE BALLS" and They didn't want to risk the reputation for a Club in turm oil.
We always love Liverpool, Liverpool's tradition & history, but before Carl Henry's takeover, Liverpool were objectively a mess and Roy Hodgson was the only with the courage to take the reins because He loves english football, and He loves Liverpool's tradition & history.
Is He good enough? I don't know, but He's a kind & nice man, He's the man in charge, and according to Liverpool's way, We should show some respect in him, and give to the man a PROPER CHANCE before judge him. FACT.
Roy accepted to steady the ship in THE WORST MOMENT OF LIVERPOOL'S HISTORY, WHEN PLENTY OF THE SO- CALLED BIG NAMES THAT YOU DESIRE MADE A SERIES OF STATEMENTES WITH MANY PATETHIC EXCUSES TO DECLINE THE OFFER, WHEN THE ONLY TRUE IS THAT THEY FEARED TO RISK HIS CV & REPUTATION AT LIVERPOOL.
I CAN TOO BE A GOOD MANAGER WITH THE MONEY OF ABRAMOVICH, MANSOUR, FLORENTINO PERES, LA PORTA BUT ALL THESE BIG CV THAT YOU LOVE THEY ESCAPED TO NORTH POLE WHEN THEY SAW LIVERPOOL KNOCK AT THE DOOR.
Roy for life? I do not know and surely it's not sure, but Roy is a man Who deserve respect and if the FA consider him good enough for England, maybe We should show some faith in him, at least for one season.
I will reply mi post:
ReplyDeleteYou ignore the big picture.
Only two months ago, We were in turm-oil: uncertainty over ownership, no transfer funds and We should say "THANKS" to Mister Hodgeson, because He's the only Man Who has had the courage to say Yes to Liverpool's offer.
When You costantly split against Hodgson, maybe <span>You deliberately ignore the fact that Mister Roy was one of the main contenders for England's Job</span>, which remains, regarding to any facts, the big reward for english managers.
When Roy say "YES" to Liverpool, plenty of the so-called BIG NAMES You desperately want at Anfield, Rjkaard, Hiddink, Mourinho, Pellegrini, Lippi They were all approached for the Job by Purslow, but They decided to decline the offer because They didn't have "THE BALLS" and They didn't want to risk the reputation for a Club in turm oil.
We always love Liverpool, Liverpool's tradition & history, but before Carl Henry's takeover, Liverpool were objectively a mess and Roy Hodgson was the only with the courage to take the reins because He loves english football, and He loves Liverpool's tradition & history.
Is He good enough? I don't know, but He's a kind & nice man, He's the man in charge, and according to Liverpool's way, We should show some respect in him, and give to the man a PROPER CHANCE before judge him. FACT.
Roy accepted to steady the ship in THE WORST MOMENT OF LIVERPOOL'S HISTORY, WHEN PLENTY OF THE SO- CALLED BIG NAMES THAT YOU DESIRE MADE A SERIES OF STATEMENTES WITH MANY PATETHIC EXCUSES TO DECLINE THE OFFER, WHEN THE ONLY TRUE IS THAT THEY FEARED TO RISK HIS CV & REPUTATION AT LIVERPOOL.
I CAN TOO BE A GOOD MANAGER WITH THE MONEY OF ABRAMOVICH, MANSOUR, FLORENTINO PERES, LA PORTA BUT ALL THESE BIG CV THAT YOU LOVE THEY ESCAPED TO NORTH POLE WHEN THEY SAW LIVERPOOL KNOCK AT THE DOOR.
Roy for life? I do not know and surely it's not sure, but Roy is a man Who deserve respect and if the FA consider him good enough for England, maybe We should show some faith in him, at least for one season.<span>
</span>
Gary - I'm afraid you're incorrect. It is 8 wins, 6 draws and 4 defeat.
ReplyDeleteWe've lost against the following teams:
Man City
Man United
Blackburn
Everton
If you think we've lost 5, who was the other loss against? Northampton? We drew that game after 120 mins of football; losing on penalties is not really losing, is it? The game is recorded as a draw, but a loss on penalties only.
Even if you count that as a defeat, it's still better than Benitez's 6 proper defeats. If Hodgson is being called substandard as a resault of his start, then Benitez can be labelled that too for his 2004 start. But his fans will never accept that.
Gary - I see your point but in reality it is 8 wins, 6 draws and 4 defeat. We've lost against the following teams:
ReplyDeleteMan City
Man United
Blackburn
Everton
Re Northampton? We drew that game after 120 mins of football; losing on penalties is not really losing, is it? The game is recorded as a draw, but a loss on penalties only.
Even if you count that as a defeat, it's still better than Benitez's 6 proper defeats. If Hodgson is being called substandard as a resault of his start, then Benitez can be labelled that too for his 2004 start. But his fans will never accept that.
You constantly talk about the Benitez Cult,yet so many times you mention his name even when asked to leave him out of it.With respect JK you have created a monster in your own crazy mixed up head.Cant you see it yourself.you really are loosing the plot.
ReplyDeleteIf the points in your post are strong enough you should have no need to repost them
ReplyDeleteMe saying no was a joke by the way. Obviously not serious. Yes, I was wrong re my comment about Pellegrini.
ReplyDeletehmmmmm. Where do I begin. (he says lickin his lips 8-) )
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to discect the whole post but I will take you up on two points
Is He good enough? I don't know, but He's a kind & nice man<span></span>
Rick, if Hodgson chooses to dress up as Santa every year for the kids SURELY it has no bearing on his credentials to be manager of in my opionion the finest club in the country. Dont you think it would have been easier to keep Rafa until the end of the season instead of giving him AND soon to be, Hodgson severance pay?
Point two my friend. I didn't deliberately ignore the fact that Hodgson was a contender for the Englnd Job. I consider every Ennglish manager with the exception of Redknapp to be absolutely and completely substandard. England would only ever apoint Hodgson if they were looking for an English manager which is in my opinion exactly what Liverpool were looking for when they apointed Hodgson, a 'top' English manager, which is indeed an oxymoron.
Hi Jamie, I totally agree with you on all counts, infact, I find it hard to understand how anyone can LOGICALLY disagree with the facts that you have pointed out. I used to post on other sites but have given up. It appears that there is a new breed of LFC fan and the are very much part of the Pro Rafa brigade. They border on obsession with the man and will defend the undefendable. They will consistently ignore the facts that everyone can see about rafa and his failings and will concentrate on CL05 and 2nd place in 09. He is a saint to them and the very fact that he left LFC in a dire mess just doesn't wash with them. Dalglish, Hansen, Whelan, Lawernson, Collymore , Fowler,Houghton, Hamman I could go on, all said his time was up, but the Pro rafas know better than ex players right. I'm sick to death of it, and I feel for Roy, even though I too have my doubts about him, but at least give him a chance. I was on a site the other day, and some deluded fan actually put a post up suggesting that Rafa had unfinished business at LFC and would be back someday, 60 people agreed with him, 13 said no, like seriously, wtf is going on!!! Anyway jamie, this site actually tells the truth, from facts from the club itself, keep it up but remember, you are fighting a losing battle against the demented Rafa lovers out there
ReplyDeleteI'll back Hodgson as long as he's manager but if you look at the performances rather than statistics for both the team and Poulsen it's pretty damning evidence so far. I hope he turns it round I really do but...
ReplyDeletePut aside personal opinions of the man and ask yourself who is the better manager? No contest- Benitez every time. Argue all day about whether he should have been sacked but the point for me is he shouldn't have been sacked unless the replacement was worthy. If a worthy successor wasn't available we should have waited. LFC should never be employing someone to "steady the ship" or look after things in the shorter term. People know he isn't the man for the long term and that it why there is so much apathy towards him. It's almost as if people know he'll be gone eventually so think we might as well get it over with now so we can get the right man in and start the long term rebuilding.
Just like yourself Jamie, I'm perplexed by the 'rafa cult'. As a fellow appreciator of in depth statistical analysis and informed opinion you inspired me to delve deep into the official records of Liverpool fc to dissect fact from fiction. Basically i analysed every single match played under benitez and paid particular attention to cumulative results in any given competition and I factored in official statistical rankings.
ReplyDeleteIt became apparent to me that in the 6 years under Benitez, his cult following grew based on nothing more than becoming champions of Europe and sustaining this achievement with consistent year-on-year champions league campaigns with another final, a semi final, quarters... all of which contributed to an official ranking as Europe's number 1 team and unofficially as THE most feared team to draw in a 2 legged European tie. Simultaneously, although never achieving the same domestically he got us closer than anyone else in the last 20 years.
Anyway, the point is, thank Christ we've got Roy now, yeah?
Thing is, many never even wanted Roy and results have fuelled that, as have his ultra defensive tactics, lack of width and service up top. You can easily contrast with Rafa's pressing game, pressing teams high up the pitch. I know which I prefer to see.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is really childish that you call people members of a cult just because they do not share your view. It's frankly very silly.
My personal view is that Roy has to adapt his tactics for us. We are not Fulham and setting the team out not to get beat by West Brom and Blackpool at Anfield is nothing short of treason. He has to up his game and stop this sitting deep, get some width and keep the ball on the floor. And stop saying silly things like telling Reina to be a more English keeper.
I'm not a hypocrite, I thought in the summer there were better options available.
instead of bringing discredit to my opinions, please explain me why my post are not strong enough.
ReplyDeletemust be another elvis you conversed with... i'm new to this site...
ReplyDeletewasn't a fan of RB style last year... but at least when he went defensive, it was cos they had too, not when playing mediocre teams...
Fair enough I suppose, Jaimie. I can understand your frustration on that front and understand your reasoning behind bringing Benitez into this.
ReplyDeleteI just feel that your making too much of an effort to forge an analogy, or parallel, between fans reaction to Benitez's perceived failure (ie. the response of Rafapologists, as you would have it) and fans reaction to Hodgson's perceived failure. The situations are different and excuses that may have been valid, or at least more cogent, with regards to Benitez perhaps aren't so now.
I will however reitirate that Hodgson deserved (and more so now after two wins against potentially tricky sides such as Bolton, whom we narrowly beat thanks to a fairly late Gerrard goal last season and Blackburn whom we beat 2-1 at home last year) to be cut a larger amount of slack. I'm not convinced long-term but judgement day isn't for a while yet, as far as I'm concerned.
If I am not mistaken Roy asked to be judged after 10 league games in which Liverpool have won 30% Drawn 30% and lost 40%. League performance is a bit underwhelming though Liverpool has fared better in Europa where its something like 4 wins out of 4 in the qualifying stages and 1 win and 2 draws in the group stages with no games lost. overall the record would make any team with moderate ambitions happy but if the results are looked at in context of these 2 separate competitions, they do not flatter in the league at all but topping the Europa group stages is not bad.
ReplyDeleteIf you want hypocrisy, look no further than Mr Hodgson. Two days ago he saved Dalglish's role at Liverpool from Benitez. Yesterday they appointed a [erson to look for young talent and bring them through the ranks. Wait a minute, wasn't that Kenny's role under Benitez. Roy saved him one day, then undermined him less than 24 hours later. The guy is a liar, a hypocrite and a joke. The sooner he's gone the better.
ReplyDeleteGood article to debate,,, I think the key points being with all the turmoil in the past months we cannot really say Roys had a fair crack at the whip,,, with the formers still in place for the Jan transfer window and very little cash about he was very unlikley to have been able to go for the likes of players he would have wanted. Personally I think the clubs making the right noises and things will hopefully calm donw and we can ocus on playing great football, building a great team for the future. Henry seems a smart guy with a good team,,, his interest is far greater than us all,,, if there is a moment of doubt he is commercial enough to know if Roy has to leave. With good results tonight and on Sunday the wind will change in Roys favour. Cheers. Law
ReplyDeleteWhy is Hodegon not old enough to build a dynasty at LFC? Ferguson is 69 and shows no signs of retiring and Bobby Robson managed Newcasle when he was 71. If Hodegson is good enough to get us to 4th place surely he's good enough to continue on and take LFC forward. It seems hypoctrical and disrepectful of you to suggest that Hodegon is only here for a seaon before being ushered out and replaced by someone else. The man signed a three year contract and is clearly trying to build foundations for long term success. You suggest that anything he does this season is ok because he won't be here next season.
ReplyDeleteI did not discredit your post,i dont see the need for the re-post as the origainal is at the top of the page. But if you want to get into it where is the proof that all the poeple mentioned above were approached or is this just paper talk. If this is true it also means Purslow had to settle for Hodgson and didn't really want him.
ReplyDeleteOMG - Rafa has gone, can you do a peice which could Unite us and drive the support forward? Maybe use your research or accountancy skills to see how the buyout could help us compete with the best in terms of transfers, stadia, media rights, world commerce etc., who we could afford, possible stadium, etc..
ReplyDeleteMaybe something interesting because this site always refers back to Rafa, who in my opinion split the fans, so too is Uncle Bulgaria Roy, clearly we need a Mourinho type manager to UNITE the fans and get everyone onside. Roy was there to steady ship while the sale process went through as it would have been difficult to sell with Rafa in charge due to the Media created perception of him, which he done nothing to help himself with. There you go got me going on Rafa again.
Can you produce something topical not designed to stoke the Rafa fires and divide the fans further? We need to pull together and it will never be that way until Rafa is confined to history and Roy gets back to Wimbledon Common.. :p
HATS OFF to u <span>Jaimie Kanwar....i really like n appreciate d way u proove ur point...u are right...</span>
ReplyDeleteBenitez always used owners name as a sheild so tht he gets d sympathy of d fans...what Roy has done is as gud as rafa luking d fact tht all he got was Rafa's left overs wid selfish owners,over staffed club n players wid no confidence...but now things r getting back to normal...so i agree wid u dat Roy should get d same support from us as benitez got...
Still think Hodgson should stay, fella?
ReplyDeleteStill think Hodgson should stay, fella?
ReplyDeleteStill think Hodgson should stay, fella?
ReplyDelete