28 Nov 2010

FOOTBALL CHEATS: No 21 - Cheating *encouraged* during Spurs vs. Liverpool on ESPN

Last season, I ran a 20 article series on football cheats, the goal of which was to highlight blatant cheating in football. After watching ESPN's footage of Spurs vs. Liverpool yesterday, I feel compelled to start the series up to highlight a growing problem that continues to blight the integrity of the sport: the active encouraging of players to cheat in order to gain an advantage.

Cheating is one thing; blatantly exhorting players to cheat on live TV is something else, and is indicative of the moral bankruptcy at the heart of football. It is increasingly evident that cheating is acceptable to fans if it gains their team ad advantage. The same principle also seems to apply to Managers and pundits (Mourinho, anyone?!) - if the team can benefit, why not cheat to make it happen?

This poisonous thought process is corrupting the integrity of football, and another example of this came during ESPN's coverage of Spurs vs. Liverpool. Former Chelsea player Scott Minto was one of the summarisers for the game, and he stated the following about Paul Konchesky's role in the Spurs' second goal:

"Paul Konchesky is very tired, and he's up against Aaron lennon, one of the quickest players in the Premier League, but he still has tuck round better; you have to expect that ball to come in there; and if anything, just foul him; just know that he's going to have a one on one situation with the goalkeeper late on, and if he does score it's going to be all over, so just foul him, even if you go off with a red card. It's not a problem".

You can listen to this for yourself in the clip below (00:50 - 1:12)



Scott Minto has actively encouraged cheating there, and he even has the gall to say that deliberately fouling someone to stop them scoring is 'not a problem' (!)

How many young, impressionable kids will have been watching ESPN and listening to that blatant acceptance of cheating?

This blase, irresponsible attitude to cheating in football is as big a problem as the actual cheating itself. Football fans and pundits like Minto are the great enablers when it comes to cheating, which is so prevalent in modern football precisely because of this kind of enabling behaviour.

How can Minto's comments be acceptable in any way, shape or form? I have no doubt that some people in the comments section will argue that he was 'just telling it like it is', or 'deliberately fouling someone in a one-on-one is not cheating'. They're probably the same fans who would defend a Liverpool player who deliberately used his hand on the line to prevent a certain goal. As long as Liverpool benefits, who cares, right?

The naming and shaming of cheats does happen enough in the sycophantic mainstream media, which is more concerned with putting players on pedestals than telling the truth. This site supports zero tolerance on cheating, and it's time for football fans to take action and show how much this shameful behaviour is truly despised.

Jaimie Kanwar





139 comments:

  1. This only highlights to me as a reds supporter just how bad Konchesky is. Its about time now we saw Aurelio stepping up to the plate and taking the left back spot but given Hodgsons relationship with Konchesky that probably won't happen

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  2. This only highlights to me as a reds supporter just how bad Konchesky is. Its about time now we saw Aurelio stepping up to the plate and taking the left back spot but given Hodgsons relationship with Konchesky that probably won't happen

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  3. This only highlights to me as a reds supporter just how bad Konchesky is. Its about time now we saw Aurelio stepping up to the plate and taking the left back spot but given Hodgsons relationship with Konchesky that probably won't happen

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  4. Ah yes - just ignore the blatant call to cheat and focus on something else entirely.  That is apathy of the modern 'fan' in a nutshell.

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  5. This is called a professional foul and not cheating! All teams do it.
    I am actually surprised you haven't blamed Rafa for this!

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  6. You obviously have never kicked a ball in your life... Fouls are an integral part of the game!
    If it wasn't they wouldn't call a FOUL it would be called a CHEAT! Lol

    We lost and this was best you could come with.. Petty!

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  7. It is cheating.  It may be called a 'professional Foul' but thjat's just a euphemism for cheating.  It's no different to deliberately handling on the line to prevent a goal, and it's obviously not in the spirit of fair play.  Does calling it a 'professional foul' make it it somehow less wrong?  Why do you defend it?  Do you think it's a good way to proceed?  Do you think 'Professional fouls' should be encouraged on live TV?

    (The fact that it's afa's fault goes without saying ;)

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  8. Good points all, I am curious, where do you stand on the grey areas that seem to be accepted by all, such as a player arms out and escorting the ball out of play preventing an attacking player from reaching it? obstruction or fair play?

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  9. Konchesky is not up to Liverpool FC standards im sure one of the younger lads would do a better job than him. Hodson has obviously got his blinkers on with this guy. How is it the fans can see when a players not up for the job and the manager cant see buy them? We need to pull the finger out of our arses very quickly if we want to keep up with the Spurs of this world!

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  10. Konchesky is not up to Liverpool FC standards im sure one of the younger lads would do a better job than him. Hodson has obviously got his blinkers on with this guy. How is it the fans can see when a players not up for the job and the manager cant see buy them? We need to pull the finger out of our arses very quickly if we want to keep up with the Spurs of this world!

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  11. Glad this point has been bought  up. It is totally irresponsible for the pundit to encourage cheating on two levels. Firstly, as has already being mentioned, the influence on the young generation is very harmfull.  I've worked training kids at football, and seen cynical fouls, when challenged I've heard kids say..'well so and so did it'...refering to a reverered professional who was venerated for preventing a goal.

    Secondly, at the speed the players are travelling, had Konchesky decided to foul Lennon, the potential for injury could be high, the sort of inury that could put players out for months.

    Direct encouragement aside, its still quite common to hear throwaway comments such
    as 'take one for the team'... implicitedly suggesting that the situation in question was unavoidable and the player was actually demonstrating a positive attribute (team spirit) by blatant cheating!

    I'd be really interested to hear what people think about the Real Madrid scandal, and perhaps possible sanctions for the manager and players involved.

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  12. And you are precisely the type of person I describe in the article. it's because of fans like you that football is in the gutter.

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  13. None of those things constitute a cynical, deliberate attempt to prevent a goal through unsporting conduct.  It is cheating, pure and simple.  Just because it's labelled as a 'professional foul' dosn't change that.

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  14. That's nowhere near the worst thing that pundits say.  Pundits will constantly say "he should've gone down there" instead of saying "the referee should've pulled the play back" when a player takes a slight knock, stumbles and loses possesion. 

    That, for me, is a far more common place occurence and far more harmful to the game than the encouragment of a cynical foul.  At least the player faces retribution with a card/dismissal/free kick for committing the foul, but just going down at the slightest touch destroys the flow of the game and risks little to nothing.  And nowadays, everybody does it!

    Pundits will also make excuses when to justify a players action when they roll around/lay out on the floor calling for assistance, as if none of us have ever taken been involved in sport before and are therefore totally unaware that the players aren't actually hurt, but really are just trying to get the opponent carded/break up an opponent's attack/catch a breather. 

    These two common pieces of punditry are the most damaging to the game imo

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  15. Sportmanship and honourable behaviour seem to be something out of the past, or even a myth. The kind of behaviour or attitude you describe above is not only found in football or sports in general but all over our societies. Personal benefit seems to be the most important thing and that's why I think everything starts rotting from the core.

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  16. Dont be silly. Its about points. Konchesky SHOULD fould Lennon in that position.....he at least stops a scoring play. Its part of the game. As is every foul....or is that cheating too?

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  17. I feel as though this topic was covered in depth this summer - Suarez anyone? I'm almost certain that Jaimie has never done anything in his life that even comes close to pushing the boundaries of acceptable behavior. 

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  18. Im with you all the way pal!

    Im a football fan - not a bullshit fan!

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  19. I wasnt actually referring to a foul of any kind, I meant posing as a barrier beteween ball and player with no intention of playing the ball in any manner, Gallas did it alot yesterday, I remember BAE doing it so vigorously he was almost backing into the lad.

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  20. I would have brought him down and followed it up with 'the peoples elbow' to stop him scoring.  If your in the 1st minute you let him dance round you like a ballerina, however if your in the 92nd min you clip him.  Don't hate the player hate the game and all that.........

    The best display of wing play I have seen in years by the way, total and utter domination down the flanks from spurs.  They're a couple of players away from really challenging hard.

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  21. Stick to the topic if you want your comments to stay up. This is a football issue and has nothing to do with me, so if you have an opinion on that then state it.

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  22. Such an admirable point of view.  Bravo!

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  23. For some reason I wouldn't compare a deliberate foul to diving in terms of cheating - for reasons I can't really explain (!) it just doesn't feel the same, probably because the player committing a deliberate foul knows the consequences of his actions and will be given (a deserved) red card where as a dive is unlikely to be punished or even worse gain your team a free kick or penalty.

    What's interesting is when you compare football to rugby. Rugby players have great respect for the referee (and are often seen as more respectable sportsman) however there is as much cheating (if not more) in rugby than football, rugby players will clearly attempt to get away with as much as possible out of the view of the referee (on the blind side of the scrum and ruck etc....), a lot of my rugby playing mates complain about being punched (in the balls!!) while in a scrum.

    The one thing I think football could learn from rugby is retrospective punishments, I don't understand why the authorities are reluctant to punish players for cheating (or other poor behaviour) after a match.

    Is cheating in football any worse now than it used to be? I think there's just far more 'media oversight' and coverage to bring it to our attention.

    Totally agree, however, that football would be a more enjoyable and better game if it was played in the right spirit without cheating.

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  24. In a utopian society were everybody plays by the rules you are right.This isnt the case though,Man utd have won all their silverware by cheating, diving, Van Nistlerooy,ronaldo,nani,then the drugs cheat Rio.they are always surrounding the referee.Inviting challenges in the area to get a penalty,kicking the opposition players off the park who are deemed a threat(Reyes,Torres)A lot of teams are told to go out and clatter in to Torres from the start just to let him no hes in for a rough ride.There is a system to combat this yellow and red cards and this system is part of the game of football.it seems to me as though if one team starts to  get away with bad tackles,,pushing ,jostling during a match it would be totally justifiable for the other team to do the same.If that same situation was at OT every Man Utd defender would have intentionally tangled himself up into Lennon to make it look like a collision when in fact it would be a blatant foul,then if the ref blows ,to a man, man utd would surround the referee.But lets be good old LFC or Arsenal who always play by the rules and end up with the fair play award and nothing else.  

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  25. I agree. Andy Gray was commenting on the live match. He praised Jamie Carragher for tripping Luka Modric when he was about to go through on goal saying he was right to "take one for the team". No is deliberately cheating. He later said that Kuyt had every right to go down in the box to win a penalty after the momentun of Benoit AE had made him collide with Kuyt even though he had touched the ball first. This gamesmanship should not be encouraged. You wouldn't hear rugby commentators talking like that. Where did fairplay and sportmanship go to?

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  26. Everyone seen to forgot the goal that won the game was scored in 93<sup>rd</sup> minute if one mr Carragher hadn’t taken so long to leave the pitch you may have got a draw , Liverpool weren’t in the position to get red or any more yellow’s considering the rules <span> </span>regarding automatic suspension and situations with squad ,again i’d like to point out problem with Liverpool started 4 years ago when previous manager started to fix team that wasn’t broke <span> </span>

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  27. To be fair, have you ever heard Brian Moore commentate?

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  28. I think that Konchesky did think about bringing him down realising that we would probably miss the penalty anyway.
    By the time he decided to do it, it was too late and Lennon was away.

    Liverpool were cruse yesterday and in footballing terms didn't deserve to win even though thay had the chances to do it. Fouls 6/17. Yellow cards 0/5

    I totally agree its anti football

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  29. I don't think thats the point of this article or debate at all.

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  30. That should be 'Liverpool were crude'

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  31. What the Madrid players did was within the rules. They deliberately got themselves booked. It is unsporting behaviour and should be treated as such. Isn't there something in the book of rules about bringing the game into disrepute? That should aply here, too.

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  32. damn right he should have fouled him. and glen should have chopped down bale way earlier in the game. notice after he hacked him down bale stopped running right? all part of the game. other teams did it to torres all last season.

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  33. What if Lennon, or even Konchesky had been badly injured....potentially massive implications. The game is dangerous enough with legimate tackles, blatant trips and shoves at speed take it to another level.

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  34. All of what you describe should be punished with bookings as soon as the game's authorities have taken a look at the footage. Unfortunately all the authorities involved are toothless and corrupt.

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  35. Good point. Maybe it is ex-players that are the problem!

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  36. What if Lennon, or even Konchesky had been badly injured....potentially massive implications. The game is dangerous enough with legimate tackles, blatant trips and shoves at speed take it to another level.
    To be fair to JK, this article is clearly not about whether we won or not.

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  37. You donkey, ...this is about all teams cheating - oh sorry professional fouling - this is about kids learning it's O.K. to cheat and that honesty and integrity are dirty words

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  38. How about a topic of Johnson's performance as oppose to Konchesky? How about a topic of which positions are Liverpool's weakness and which players should be offloaded which sort of players should be the replaments. I think this are forward thinking topics as oppose to definition of cheat and rules of the game... Surely I wouldnt be commenting on a pundit's opinion as that is EXACTLY what it is "his opinion" My interest is to discuss the steps required to move Liverpool forward. 

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  39. see above and learn about moral decency

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  40. I don't dispute that Liverpool players are guilt of the same things.  Look back through the 'Football Cheats' series - Steven Gerrard features several times. 

    In no way did Liverpool start this kind of behaviour though (!).

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  41. I think you make a good point, mate - I actually agree with you here. It is similar to the Luis Suarez handball in the World Cup, i was having a similar debate with someone then. I think it's blatantly cheating, they were saying he just did what he had to do to keep his team in the competition. I suppose the arguement against here is that if you foul someone through on goal, you know you're punishment will be a red card. 

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  42. At the rate Spurs keep getting injured it may take more than a few players.  Things are looking up though

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  43. By the same token, the Spurs player who went down in the box looking for a penalty was also guilty of cheating, but nobody chastised him for it. Its a part of the game regardless of your moral standpoint. We can all debate the ethics of the game, the way some players like Drogba go down like a prostitute at an all you can eat buffet, but the reality is that teams that play fair end up losing. I'm all for going out there and playing a good, clean game, but you have to fight fire with fire sometimes or you will always come up short. The Scum DID NOT win the league 2 seasons ago by playing fair.

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  44. timreds

    I don't know much abt rugby, but was curious to hear abt the amount of cheating that can go on, especially as I always had this perception of Rugby being a 'gentlemans sport'.

    I think u raise a really interesting point when comparing retrospective punishments in football and rugby. Do you think that the reason authorities can be more reluctant in football to punish players is due to a fear of undermining the role of the match officials...or could there be another reason?

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  45. <span>Konchesky didn't commit the foul or cheat, as they say actions speak louder than words so am sure all the kids took note u don't have to worry this much, however,  u should be worried abouti fact we did not play well AGAIN!!!, as i said in my post yesterday, the players r not happy under Roy, u tell by their attitude toward the game, even Konchesky roy's own signing doesn't look happy, the look on his face says he would rather be at some mid -level club, sorry Jamie but the sucking of Rafa and Hiring Roy was the biggest mistake liverpool has ever made, i really suspect that our relegation battle is not over yet, more like its jus starting, and to make matters worse we now have Utd in the FA cup, we need to replace Roy by Jan, sorry but we jus have to for the overall good of the club  </span>

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  46. As football fans, I think what annoys us the most about cheating is when people get away with it.
    We all enjoy a good laugh and feeling of satisfaction when someone like Drogba/Ronaldo throws himself to the floor looking for a foul and then gets booked for diving don't we?!
    Personally, I would like a review panel to look at incidents after a game and punish people retrospectively for incidents of blatent cheating. Slap a 3-5 match ban on them and people would soon stop doing it surely?
    If Konchesky takes out Lennon in your example, it is bad sportsmanship and obviously a professional foul and red card, but as it is punished and catered for in the laws of the game (down to 10 men and 3 match ban), I would hesitate to call it cheating.
    If a defender stops the ball on the line with his hand in the first minute, he makes the decision to be sent off, concede a penalty, let his team play the rest of the game with 10 men and incur a ban, as opposed to conceding a goal. He isn't trying to deceive anyone. Therefore, I don't think it is cheating (just my opinion), but I agree with the principal of bringing back sportsmanship, which of course is unwritten.

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  47. Cheating or gaining an advantage through the expense of others happends not just in football, it happends in every walk of life. The fact is people only call others a cheat if the deception or cheating has the negative impact on you. Look at Maradona in 86 he was blatantly cheating and all english fans where seething, however if Gary Lineker would have done the hand of god and england would have went on to win the world cup, it would have only been the scotish and wales fans who would have called him a cheat, english fans, we would have said yeh he handballed it but would we have called him a cheat, no we would have defended him and laughed at the argies and brushed of the rest as we would have won the world cup. Steven Gerrard has fallen down in the past and won a penaly, when you look at it again and you see that he dived, do we stand up and say I cant believe he would do such a thing or do we have a laugh at the expense of the other team. Yet when someone is doing it to you the first thing you do is stand up and call the person for everything. This has been happening in football for years, england where branded as cheats in 66. do we care, no. Luis Garcia was branded a cheat for cheering a goal that never was, and we went on to lift the Champions league that year. Hypothetically, say he knew it didnt cross the line, should he have put his arms up and said no goal??? No chance, he went for it, and so would anyone as the prize was so high, cheat or no cheat he wanted to gain an advantage over chelsea  for liverpool. If he did come out now and say he did know it didnt cross the line, what liverpool fan would brandish him a cheat for doing it. I suspect none, they would see the prize we won and say it was worth it even to see the look on jose's face. I dont condone cheating and I think it has no place in society, however it does make life more interesting, especially if your the one gaining the advantage like I have outlined above.

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  48. it is only part of the game because fans, pundits and everyone else is so apathetic towards cheating, and are willing to accept and condone.  I agree, if players go down deliberately looking for a penalty that is cheating, and should be dealt with harshly.

    An instant red card for such offences would stop them in their tracks, but football's governing bodies don't have the balls to do it.

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  49. "They were saying he just did what he had to do to keep his team in the competition"

    I've heard that kind of view too and it reall does my head in.  So, just because he was doing it for the team makes it okay?!  I can't understand that thought process.  And you just know that if it was *their* team on the receiving end then the person with that attitude would take a completely different view on the issue.
    <span>
    </span>

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  50. United and Chelsea have for years been committing 'good fouls'- basically fouls that occur on or near the half-way line to stop attacks developing in a dangerous way. Other teams have continued to do it too and actually having watched Mascherano play for a few years, he was quite good at that also. It is unfortunately, part and parcel of modern-day professional football at the top of the game and irrespective of the thoughts as to whether it is cheating or not, which it is, there is now too much money involved. I remember a few years ago we were leading 1-0 at United and Smicer ran clear, Chadwick chased him all the way back and fouled him before the penalty area to prevent the goal, got red-carded and got cheered off by the United fans. I think that the issue I had more with yesterday was that 1) Hutton should have been at least booked for a blatant dive in the penalty area, 2) Kuyt had a clear penalty not given when Ekotto fouled him, 3) Gomes punched Torres in the head to stop him scoring 4) Atkinson booked Johnson for a clean tackle on Bale, 5) he failed to give numerous free-kicks to us and was giving Spurs free kicks all over the place for the equivalent. Professional fouls are a rather irritating part of modern day football. 

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  51. Kopstick

    This is the big issue....its widespread across the league....most teams have been guilty in some way, even if some players are slightly more'gifted' at cheating than others! The only way of controlling this surely has to come from the governing authorities.

    In regard to the controversy about the commentators who encourage this behaviour (many of whom do seem to be ex players themselves) what sanctions could they potentially face?

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  52. I think the topics you mention are being covered all over the web all of the time. Just check on newsnow and you'll find at least 10 players we are linked with and should sign every day.

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  53. Drogba and other players who go down as soon as they feel a breath of air should be punished in retrospective to stop this kind of ridiculous behaviour.

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  54. Everyone knows or should know that cheating in any sort of way in any sport or in fact any part of life is not the right thing to do. But its out there, and if it wasn't there in sport then there would be no need for referees and yellow/red cards. Everyone could just go around licking each others balls. But its there and it is in many forms so I don't see the point in this conversation unless the people trying to make a point haven't been around for the last 100 years. We could have this conversation every week 10 times over. I'd rather talk about what a brilliant game it was to watch even though we lost, rather then give comments by Scott Minto my air time. 

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  55. If you want to talk about cheating at yesterday's game you should mention Martin Atkinson. Mr. Home Town himself (& i don't just mean yesterday's game-he's a home town referee every week). 5 yellow cards for Liverpool & not a bad challenge in the entire game (from either team). The yellow he gave Johnson was a joke. Atkinson simply waits for the crowd to shout before blowing the whistle-the man hasn't a clue.

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  56. Wow...just wow. Is there nothing you won't do for attention kanwar?? Your latest cause celebre (uncle werthers) has cocked up again (this time via his gimp-signing, konchesky) so you decide to get your smalls in a bunch about scott minto  advocating cheating. Have you EVER even played the game?! EVERY redman watching that game was screaming "TAKE HIM DOWN!!!"The moral argument is redundant here

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  57. Well, when Gerrard won that penalty in the 2005 CL final I was the only one of about 40 people in the room we watched the match to say that he dived. Winning that match through cheating leaves a bitter taste to it, at least to me.

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  58. Did Konchesky actually see Lennon before the situation occured? I dont think so. Dont give a toss about what two bob Minto says, Lennon run behind Konchesky, nicked the ball before Konchesky even noticed a flying white image just whistle past him, when Konchesky realised that it was Lennon, the ball was already in the net..He didnt have a chance to cheat basically..joke aside Konchesky despite coming through the ranks of Charlton just like Minto and by Keith Peacock, never in his career professionally fouled or cheated..Minto is only one example, Andy Gray also promotes the same thing by suggesting that strikers should just go down under a challenge, or even yesterdays game wasnt it Andy Gray saying Carragher fouled Crouch but if he knows he will get away with it why not?? Andy Gray is the worst out of the lot promote cheating.

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  59. lilywhitemike

    I'm really glad you bought that incident up...i myself was debating the issue a couple of weeks ago. 

    I suppose the arguement against here is that if you foul someone through on goal, you know you're punishment will be a red card. 
    Absolutely...people would say its a consistent rule...players understand the implication of thier potential action. However, my point to the governing bodies would be the issue of timing. Had the Suarez incident occured 10 minutes into the game, his team would play with a significant disadvantage for 80 minutes. It could be argued that his actions would far less likely to garner a positive outcome for Uraguay than the reality of what he actually did. Yet the punishment for both occurances would be the same. I've no suggestion of how you would legislate for that...just wanted to throw the issue of timing and cheating into the mix!

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  60. Its amazing what constitutes a foul in one area of the pitch is acceptable in the area or defending.

    Shirt tugging, blocking off attackers, barging Crouch in tha back. Middle of the pitch freekick, penalty area or final third then its fine.

    Sure Spurs probably did it yesterday more than Liverpool (shepherding out) but it is so common as to be acceptable and even 'good' defending.

    Its up to the powers that be to determine what is and isnt allowed and then ENFORCE it. Players will go as far as they can get away with.

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  61. i do actually cringe wen i open an article and see your name on it jamie cause i kno its gonna be pure utter shite talk the facts are he didn foul him and they scored so y is the video of konchesky up y not a load of pics of scott minto it has nothing wat so ever to do wit liverpool cause he didn fuckin foul him its jus a commentators view so don bring liverpool in to it another class article jamie lol

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  62. One of my fondest memories of a Liverpool legend, Jamie Carragher, is from very early on in his career whenever he contested a challenge and the ball went out into touch, he would immediately raise his hand and claim the throw in was his. Regardless of whether he knew that he had just booted the ball out himself, which he often had.  Carra has that incredible desire to win. At all costs. That's why he is Liverpool and that's why someone like you, Jaimie would not understand you do what you have to do to win the game. Even if you fail at least you can say you tried. It's the ultimate footballing sacrifice, taking a red card for your team to be in a more advantageous position. Do you think back in the Uruguayan changing room Diego Forlan refused to look Luis Suarez in the eye, and to this day refuses to shake his hand due to his poor sportmanship or 'cheating'? Or are you one of those fans who was tutting whispering to themselves 'now that is just not in the spirit of the game'? Dare for a minute to imaginge it is the last day of the season. Away to villa, 5 minutes into injury time Abonglahor is running through on goal. If he scores we lose the Premier League. You name one Liverpool player who if they had the chance would not take him out. If you name me one Liverpool fan who would disagree with the above challenge, I will show you someone that is not a true Liverpool supporter. Also I think your comments about the game being in the gutter are slightly ironic on the back of a record breaking weekend in the Premiership........

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  63. That's utter nonsense, what about Carragher taking Modric out when Modric was about to put Lennon through one on one and what about Mereiles taking out Bale after he went past about 5 of your players and was on his way into the box for what would of been a goal of the season, Johnson went straight through Bale there was no question that was a yellow, his studs were up and Bale was hurt a definite yellow. Take the blinkers off Steve and stick to the topic (which I totally agree with by the way)

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  64. For me too, anteater.  I've viewed the footage a million times and It definitely looks like a dive.  I thought so at the time too, and I was slammed by my own friends for suggesting it!  All they cared about was the fact that the team would gain an advantage.

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  65. Yes, this is what I was getting at, this sheperding to me constitues obstruction if not a foul, I was curious if I was alone in this.

    BTW I appologise for singling out the spurs lads yesterday, I am a spurs fan and didnt name Liverpool players as although I can name their back four I didnt want to appear ignorant should I assign a particular action to a player I hadnt been paying quite so much attention to

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  66. Yes, this is what I was getting at, this sheperding to me constitues obstruction if not a foul, I was curious if I was alone in this.

    BTW I appologise for singling out the spurs lads yesterday, I am a spurs fan and didnt name Liverpool players as although I can name their back four I didnt want to appear ignorant should I assign a particular action to a player I hadnt been paying quite so much attention to

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  67. Yes, this is what I was getting at, this sheperding to me constitues obstruction if not a foul, I was curious if I was alone in this.

    BTW I appologise for singling out the spurs lads yesterday, I am a spurs fan and didnt name Liverpool players as although I can name their back four I didnt want to appear ignorant should I assign a particular action to a player I hadnt been paying quite so much attention to

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  68. Carragher's yellow was fair enough but Johnson actually played the ball first so it wasn't a foul. The fact that Bale got hurt is irrelevant & isn't part of the laws of football. There were a couple of Spurs challenges that Atkinson blew for but didn't brandish cards. But my point wasn't so much about yesterday's game but about Atkinson being a home town ref. I bet there are lots of Spurs fans who have been unhappy with him also in the past!

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  69. You had a great opportunity here to write a positive article about the way the team approached the game yesterday and came up with this random rant, focusing on a tiny part of yesterdays game. If Konchesky *had* "cheated" then at least we would have got the point we deserved and he would have been punished with a red card. Any kids watching would have the learnt that there is a price to pay for "cheating" and there are consequences attached to any actions you choose to take in regards to the greater good of the team. How about spreading a little positivity? (for a change) In my understanding it is only cheating where an action occurs that goes unnoticed and/or unpunished and results in a team gaining an unfair advantage eg Maradona's handball vs England in the 1986 World Cup.

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  70. As a Liverpool fan I will name our main culprit among our back four. Jamie Carragher. He is working so much with his arms that I often wonder whether he'd be better at wrestling than at football. If referees would be more up to it, he'd be sent off every game as it is a bookable offence and he does it at least twice per match.

    As for sheperding out the ball, well, it is not against the rules as the player doing it is closer to the ball than the one being "obstructed". Otherwise it would be, as far as I know, obstructing without ball, which is foul play.

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  71. Hi Sumon,

    The main difference with Rugby and Football is when a rugby player is caught cheatimng they tend to accept their punishment with respect of the referee - do you ever see rugby players arguing and crowding round the ref?

    I think this has partly got to do with a fear of restrospective punishment, which brings me to your second point.

    I think it is a combination of two things, fear of undermining the officials and fear of the teams/managers/players involved - teams are so powerfull nowadays the authorities probably fear a backlash they couldn't do anything about. Money talks!

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  72. Rubbish.  If you are refering to selling Xabi Alonso you are way of the mark.  Alonso had had three massively poor seasons and after watching him get bullied throughout our semi (or was it quarter) final against Chelsea I was telling everyone that would listen we need to get him out.  Xabi only had the season he had in his final season because he found a motivation to play...hate.  A player cannot go missing for three years and expect loyalty, if anything Xabi should have stayed loyal to Rafa and Liverpool for the amount of time we maintained faith in him.       

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  73. He couldn't focus on the game though as it might have meant having to give Konchesky a hard time for his part in the winning goal. And that won't happen. Or he would have to refer to his assertion last week that we would win the game and people who said we wouldn't, would look stupid. Anyway, sure we lost at Spurs last year...

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  74. Pundits are becoming the bain of most football commentaries. Most are nobodies anyway (Scott who? Oh yeah played a bit oart for Chelsea when they were rubbish) and they are verbally incontinent as anyone who listens to radio commentaries and hears the likes of Steve Claridge talking over the whole of the action on the pitch, with just the occasional interruption from the actual commentator to report a goal will know.

    Football should clean-up its act. Refs should award penalties for Shirt-pulling in the box at corners (no matter how many times it happens in a game) and take a leaf out of Rugby's book and award a Penalty Goal when someone "takes one for the team".

    Trouble is it means the Refs will need to grow some cojones and the FA would have to tell old red nose where to stick it after Vidic gets sent off every week. It's never going to happen because there is a whole generation that have no real moral values beyond what is good for them must be right.

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  75. Tommy

    You have raised a very good point. It is so much harder to be objective about fouls whilst watching your team play, surrounded by fellow fans, especially when the stakes can be so high. The potential scenario you mooted really got me thinking...what would I honestly do or think in that situation...would I be capable of objective thought in such a massively heightened emotional state?

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  76. Rafa has done a lot of bad transfers and he did not want them to recognize that he made a mistake. At the moment, as if history repeats itself. Roy brought this Konchesky and does not want to admit that this is not a player of such caliber as this great club. It can be a good guy but this is not enough to play for this club.

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  77. Wrong Matt if the punishment does not fit the crime.

    If Konchesky had fouled Lennon yesterday (and full marks to the lad for not doing so rather than being slagged-off by his ownteam's supporters) it may or may not have resulted in a Red Card. Even if it was Red, it would have just been a free-kick which probably would have come to nothing, but as the action showed it would have denied not only a goal-scoring opportunity but in fact, a goal.

    So the only lesson youngsters would learn from that is that you can get a result by fouling and thereby cheating.

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  78. Brian Moore commentating?

    "It's Thomas bursting through the midfield.  It's up for grabs nooooooooowww!  Thomas!!!"

    Hands down the most depressing piece of commentary ever ;)

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  79. For anyone who has played football at any kind of competitve level fouling is part of the game

    Suarez handball is fine, as is Michael Ballack tactical foul in 2006 World Cup semi final

    The rules of football were applied exactly as they should have been in those circumstances. These are blatant fouls, easily punishable

    Is claiming a throw in that's not yours cheating? Is grappling an opponent in the box at a corner cheating?

    The real cheats these days are

    -the ones who have perfected simulation to earn free kicks, penalties, get opponents into trouble, example Gerrard, Nani, Ronaldo, almost everyone else these days!!!

    -players who deliberately knick the ball with one foot and crunch opponent with other, example Terry, de Jong, any centre half who sees the chance!!!

    -players who feign injury to force referee to halt the game therefore stopping opponents from counter attacking, Drogba rolling back onto pitch while injured to stop the game v Liverpool in CL

    These avenues for cheating could easily be closed off. Video replays, lengthy retrospective bans, sin binning for chatting back to referee and in play attention to injured players permitted

    Most of these measures would be simple and effective. See how long Rooney would keep up his foul mouthed tirades at officials if it resulted in 5 minutes in the sin bin, would Thierry Henry have basketball solo'd the ball into his path versus Ireland in World Cup play off if the punishment was more than a possible yellow card? Try 5 minutes in the sin bin there

    But there isn't any appetite for proper reform by the footballing authorities to target cheats

    Forget about Scott Minto. Andy Gray revels in Kevin Davies cheating every week, against us he was laughing out loud at it. Sky are patethic and they basically own football now

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  80. I think the ref lost it at some point during the match. That may have been because of the crowd, but I think he missed quite a few things that would have gone in Spurs favour. One example would be Carra crushing into Crouch when the latter was in the air. Carra didn't even try to get the ball. That should have been a penalty (according to the rules of the game). Another instance was when Carra had his arms all over his opponent, again at a corner, shirt tugging and all that. That too has to be a pen.

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  81. and encouraging players to foul, as opposed to playing football in cheating.. ideally fouls are for accidental transgressions that are inevitably going to happen in a fast, contact sport..

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  82. "If you name me one Liverpool fan who would disagree with the above challenge, I will show you someone that is not a true Liverpool supporter. <span>"</span>
    If that's true Tommy it says everything about you and your club.
    Personally, I think your club is better than that.
    You win things by being better than the opposition. If you have to rely on the Hollywood sound-bite view of the world, then you are just admitting that you are crap.
    One of your own supporters above pointed out that certainly for last season and much of this Jamie Carragher has become a candidate for the WWF. I can still see the incredulous looks on the Evetonians' faces last season when he wresteld their forward to the ground in the penalty area and the ref gave nothing. It proves your point that fouling/cheating is fine if it gets the result you want. I just hope eventually refs step-up to the plate and get rid of the Caraghers of the world from the pitches of English footbal.

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  83. encouraging players to foul, as opposed to playing football is, arguably, cheating.. ideally fouls are for accidental transgressions that are inevitably going to happen in a fast, contact sport<span></span>..

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  84. Stop Deleting My Posts4:57 pm, November 29, 2010

    I think you've lost the plot!

    Say the Minto scenario played out.  Lennon is through and Konchesky deliberately brings him down from behind.  The ref gives a penalty and a red card, and Konchesky gets a 3 match ban.  How is that cheating?

    Cheating is doing something illegal and getting away with it.

    More important is the decision of a ref and linesman.  If they see the tackle and do nothing then again, how is it cheating?

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  85. regarding the sheparding of the ball, i believe the rule is to the effect that if you arethe nearest player to the the ball you are in possession of the ball, if you see what i mean.. it continually frustrates me..surely one needs to touch the ball to claim possession..but apparently it isn't the case..correct me if i'm wrong, I may be!
    Additionally the amount of penalties awarded when a player knocks the ball past a keeper, losing possession (often out of play), and is then taken down.. frustrating!!i find it fairly harsh on keepers..obviously some of these occurences are indeed 'legitimate' fouls..!

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  86. You do realise Jaimie, that all 'cheating' is punishable by the referee by a free-kick/penalty and/or yellow/red card.

    Every single foul committed is cheating.

    Not standing 10 yards from a free-kick is cheating.

    A foul throw is cheating.

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  87. regarding the sheparding of the ball, i believe the rule is to the effect that if you arethe nearest player to the the ball you are in possession of the ball, if you see what i mean.. it continually frustrates me..surely one needs to touch the ball to claim possession..but apparently it isn't the case..correct me if i'm wrong, I may be!
    Additionally the amount of penalties awarded when a player knocks the ball past a keeper, losing possession (often out of play), and is then taken down.. frustrating!!i find it fairly harsh on keepers..obviously some of these occurences are indeed 'legitimate' fouls..!

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  88. Simon- no,every foul is clearly not cheating.. when an attacking player has possesion attempts to dribble past a defender, who ,in his honest attempt to win the ball, fouls the attacker..that is not cheating.. deliberatly fouling is, and should NEVER be encouraged!!

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  89. Sorry for yet another post guys..its just that find this topic and peoples responses fascinating. I'm not sure if this particular idea has been debate in a previous post, apologies if it has...I've read most comments but my noggin is not what it used to be!

    I wanted to know what people thought about the train of thought pertaining to the delegation of responsibilty to the officals. After the furore regarding the TH handball incident, some people suggested that he could be absolved of blame, the fault being placed squarely at the officals. Furthermore, there was the suggestion that the governing bodies were equally culpable for the delay in putting fifth officals on the goal line for high profile games.

    In that particular scenario, one argument I heard was based around the theory that what TH did was pure instinct, and that the speed and pressure of the scenario allowed him no time for deliberation. It was suggested that the pressure of being surrounded by 80,000 of his countryman, and the implication of what an honest admission would do to his country chances did not give any sort of fair opportunity to admit his error.

    In no way am I trying to condone what he did, I just want to know what people think! Are we being fair expecting men to have the strength to admit their mistakes to a referee and risk widespread condemnation from fans, managers, owners and colleagues?

    Or is defering the reponsibilty to the match officials just an easy way to allow our pampered and well paid young men a further opportunity to live in a fantasy world by eschewing their moral resposnibilities?

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  90. I THINK MAYBE LENNON WAS TOO FAST FOR HIM AND HE COULD NOT FOUL HIM
    BUT SAY I AGRRE ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT MINTO

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  91. on this issue I think gattusso clips the back of his left leg..so open to interpretation though, and you definitely wouldn't put it past him!

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  92. An interesting point very well made.  I completely agree with you I cannot see the difference between a <span>deliberate</span> foul or handball to prevent a goal scoring opportunity and a player diving in the area to gain a penalty.  If Scott Minto suggested that a player should dive in the area if he couldn't score he wouuld be criticiised by everyone but somehow people think it is different when he suggests that he should deliberately fouls someone to stop a player scoring

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  93. How about encouraging young kids to not be sheep that blindly copy adults

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  94. Sorry for yet another post guys..its just that I find this topic and peoples responses fascinating. I'm not sure if this particular idea has been debated in a previous post, apologies if it has...I've read most comments but my noggin is not what it used to be!  
     
    I wanted to know opinons about the train of thought which states that the responsibilty of fair play should be solely delegated to the match officals. After the furore regarding the Henry handball incident, some people felt that he could be absolved of blame, the fault being placed squarely at the officals. Furthermore, there was the suggestion that the governing bodies were equally culpable for the delay in putting fifth officals on the goal line for high profile games.  
     
    In that particular scenario, one pundit stated that what TH did was pure instinct, that the speed and pressure of the scenario allowed him no time for deliberation. Some have mooted that this incident was typical of a substantial degree of fouls, which are simply not premeditated. However, after the foul is committed, and assuming the officials have made an eroneous decison, what is the players responsibilty?Many impartial observers of the game felt that the pressure of being surrounded by 80,000 of his countryman, and the implication of what an honest admission would do to his country chances did not give TH any sort of fair opportunity to admit his error.  
     
    In no way am I trying to condone what he did, I just want to know what people think! Are we being fair expecting men to have the strength to admit their mistakes to a referee and risk widespread condemnation from fans, managers, owners and colleagues?  
     
    Or is defering the reponsibilty to the match officials just an easy way to allow these pampered and well paid young men a further opportunity to live in a fantasy world by eschewing their moral responsibilities?

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  95. Konchesky is so poor, he wouldnt be able to cheat.

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  96. What a plonker Minto is  Liverpool did this  type of fowling a few  times on Bale and Lennon yet we allowed Maxi and Torres to run through without fouling them shows we don't need to cheat to win . Liverpool made 17 bad tackles to Spurs 7 What if Konchesky hurt Lennon and he was out for another three months this his why he has had two knee operations and was missing for three months with groin and Hernia problems that will eventually need surgery. Minto shoud be sacked for his stupid comments. What about Modrics shot Defoes miss and all the chances in the second half chances dont win games Goals do if Modrics goal was unluky on Skyrtl then so was his goal when it hit Ngogs arm.

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  97. As someone working in the education sector...easier said than done!!!

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  98. DAVSPURS

    I agree, its not right to advocate deliberate fouling, which in this case could have potentially seriously hurt a player. Although annoyed with Konchesky for his mistake, I fully appreciate his integrity which is showed by not fouling Lennon.

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  99. Let's not sugar coat the views Minto expresses, it's cheating.  95% of premiership footballers cheat, you have to look no further than our beloved LFC team for cheating.  I have seen players such as Torrres regulary cheat by diving, Gerrard also cheats by diving and many other english players consistently cheat.

    I'll put my neck on the line and say perfomance enhancement drugs (PED is very rife in the Premiership and other leagues.  It is clear through observation the game is peppered with players on PED'S.  Players such as C. Ronaldo, Essien, Lampard, Drogba, Gerrard, Rooney to name a few are active PED users.

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  100. Namol

    Controversial comment regarding PED's...surely if there was a problem random drug tests would have highlighted it?

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  101. Providing the ball is close to the defenders feet he is deemed to be 'in control' of it, he can therefore safely see it out of play if he so chooses.  If he is clearly not in control of the football it is down to the ref to blow up for an obstruction.

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  102. I don't support cheating but I don't think a deliberate foul is a good example. Cheating (by the term itself) needs to include an element of fraud. In that, it is different than from any other violation of the law.  Diving would be an example, as would be scoring a goal with one's hand. Fouling while knowingly willing to pay the price for it is not cheating becuase the fraudelent element is missing.  It is no different then deliberate fouls in basketball (made to stop the clock or send a poor free throw shooter to the line).  I don't see anything wrong with breaking the rules of the game  if its done openly and the perpetrator is willing to pay the price.

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  103. Jaimie, instead of a totally pointless debate why don't you look at why we were beaten yesterday?

    There is plenty to look at and i think it would make for a far more worthwhile debate!

    Just a few suggestions:-

    1) Why can't our fullbacks defend?

    2) Why do we score a goal and then look to sit back and soak up the pressure for
        the remainder of the game?

    3) Why not play Kelly at RB and put Glen Johnson on the wing?

    4) Why let Insua go out on loan this season and then go and buy Konchesky?

    5) Why let Aqualani go out on loan this season and then buy Poulson?

    6) Why when we are crying out for some genuine pace and skill is Roy not giving
        some the youth a chance, there seems to be a few that could fill them roles!

    7) Why is it that Roy claims we are short of CH's when he has three fit who have
        represented their country and one of those captains their national side, we also
        have Kelly who i think has done very well when called upon.

    8) Why does Roy persist in alienating players?

    9) Why is a team like Liverpool sitting back and playing on the counter attack?

    10) Why in the transfer window did Roy concentrate his search on a LB that was
          poor compared to he loaned out?

    11) Why in the transfer window did Roy have a re-shuffle in midfield and end up
          worse off? ie loan out Aqualani buy Poulson!

    12) Why did Roy let Nemeth go when we are short of strikers?

    13) Why did he not leave the midfield and LB alone and sign a striker?

    14) Why did the board force Rafa out to replace him with Roy?

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  104. And just another statement from someone who knows a thing or two about The Liverpool Way:

    "If a player is not interfering with play or seeking to gain advantage, then he should be."

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  105. Old Timer

    Not sure how the two sceanrios are different..they are both commiting fouls, in the first situation (ie handling into the net) the player believes he has more chance with getting away with the offence. However they still are fouling whilst knowingly willing to pay price. They just believe that the chance of paying that price is quite slim.

    Player B, commiting the more obvious foul, has decided he is probably going to get caught out. However what if the offence was missed by the officials? Unless he was prepared to go to the ref and admit that he deliberately cheated how in principle are the two offences different? Its only the element of risk taken that seems to be the differentiating factor.

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  106. 15) Why do I get the feeling that at least half of the points you make would be perfectly fine if Rafa was in charge but are utterly wrong because Roy is our manager at the moment?

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  107. First things first.......No matter the good intentions and "spirit of fair play" attitude, you will never have a sport were there is no gamesmanship at all. All thru the 90's commentators would often say that england and english teams playing in europe were at a disadvantage because we didnt dive, feign injuries, or waste time. As wrong as it is, in order to win u have to fight fire with fire. If you notice since the massive influx of foreign players in the late 90's, we seen more of the european style of gamesmanship and a big improvement in english results abroad, hell, for four of five years english clubs dominated europe.
    I dont like it when players fake fouls or time waste, and i hate it even more when Liverpool players do it as it's my team and I dont want them stooping to that level. But if a team is prepared to "cheat" to win then they must be prepared to lose to a "cheat" too.
    Would you say it was cheating if the fans of one team single out a vulnerable player and abuse him till he cant focus on the pitch, or when rory delap uses a towel on the ball, but the opposition dont get given one, maybe.
    On the whole 90% of fans hate cheating, sadly there is nothing you can do about it except try and use it to your own advantage without crossing the line.

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  108. Apparently, Stoke have to make a towel available to the opposing players too. As for the issue relating to fans, an interesting point..some would argue its out of the direct remit of the club's control as long as they are not being racially offensive. (though personally, I really don't like to hear stupid gossip like that chanted by fans)

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  109. who said it's random? assume it's random, a urine test would not show up a banned substance, only blood test would and as far as I know tests are limited to urine only.

    If the premiership doping tests are so accurate and stringent then why has no single player been tested positive thus far? and if you're assuming premiership players are substance free then you're very naive indeed.  Especially when we see week in week out the level of cheating on the pitch in the form of diving, play acting etc and you expect me to believe cheating is not extended off pitch with substance abuse?

    Did you know Marion Jones never failed a single test in her life? and she was tested over 100+ ocassions.  She finally admitted to PED usage over a ten year career. 

    I find it hard to believe that todays footballers play 60+ games over a season and can maintain the same level of perfomance throughout the season without assistance from PEDs. 

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  110. Ok, what about things like watering one side of the pitch, or giving the away team poorer, or flooded in Utd's case, lol, dressing rooms. The managers mind games have come into effect more and more too, putting pressure on refs. There are alot of things that can be considered cheating. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you want to "bend" the rules to gain an advantage, you should expect the opponent to do the same.

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  111. Would love some evidence of this

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  112. Sorry Jaimie but it is clear you don't know much about football. Why don't you try baseball or netball, that's a nice game for you. FYI The art of defending has always involved doing whatever you can to stop the opposition...if you break the rules of the game you are punished. You have to weigh up the balance of taking the risk and paying the price, that is part of the beauty of the game and is in itself a skill

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  113. knee-jerk nonsense.  You can revel in attacking a manager who has barely been here for 5 months.  I'll wait till the end of the season.

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  114. No think you are missing the point there!!
    Yes i prefer Rafa to Roy but Rafa made some bad signings also!!
    All i'd say is that if you replace Rafa it should've been for a manager with a superior record, why downgrade??
    And to answer your question, Rafa didn't make these signings, Roy did!!
    If Rafa had signed them and made those decisions i'd critisise him also!!
    My point was that there greater things to debate than some has been sky pundit and his off hand remark!!

    Anteater, are you happy with the way we are playing, the players signed by Roy and Roys performance as our manager??

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  115. the bigger picture as you see it??
    worrying more about some comment from sky pundit??
    myself i'm more worried about my team!!

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  116. And Jaimie, for the record it's not an attack, it is merely stating the truth.

    ie Rafa is a superior manager! they were poor signings!

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  117. I would like to think that English teams were dominating in Europe from the mid to late 70s until Heysel. Without the gamemanship. That should prove your point of English dominance as a result of the foreign, injury feigning, diving influx wrong.

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  118. I would like to think that English teams were dominating in Europe from the mid to late 70s until Heysel. Without the gamemanship. That should prove your point of English dominance as a result of the foreign, injury feigning, diving influx wrong.

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  119. I would like to think that English teams were dominating in Europe from the mid to late 70s until Heysel. Without the gamemanship. That should prove your point of English dominance as a result of the foreign, injury feigning, diving influx wrong.<span></span>

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  120. Emily Bishops hair9:06 pm, November 29, 2010

    Professional fouls are part of what makes the game so intriging, so just get over it.

    Remember some of the fouls from the 70s and 80s, you could get time for some of them now.
    Hes just an idiot for saying the obvious on TV for me.

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  121. I agree there is a definitive differenc to gaining and advantage than just headlining everything as cheating. Like you said have you ever been in liverpools away dressing room?? not very good compared to the home dressing room, the 'this is anfield sign', facing the Kop in the second half, it is all there to gain an advantage over the opposition before they kick a ball. why do the crown sign and shout, how come teams normally win at home than away, its all part of the plan of putting the other team on the back foot as soon as they turn up. Football and other sports are full of underhand tactics. this is why managers come out with comments to stir the opposition up, Ferguson does it all time, around january and feb when the league is tight, out come the comments, he has done it to benitez, keegan, wenger. Its all to gain the advantage which is really a form of cheating.
    I remember when brian clough used to go out and water the pitch himself to gain an advantage. We would all love it to be 19th century cricket, however it is football and the professional foul was invented by professional footballers a long time ago. Atrue proffesionsl foul is the one you dont see, thats why its professional.

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  122. Why downgrade? Well, this is really simple. When we were looking for a manager in 2004 we were looking for someone to take a job at a club playing in the Champions League. When we were looking for a manager in 2010 we were looking for someone willing to manage a team that qualified for the Europa League not because of it results but because the team that would be qualified to take the last spot didn't apply and went bust. In 2010 we were looking for someone who was willing to work for a club with a bunch of clowns for owners, a club for sale, a club that may or may not be put into administration, a club that may get a nine point penalty. Do you see the difference?

    I am happy with the way we played yesterday though I am not happy with the result. I think that we start to see now how we can play as soon as the players adopt to the system/style Roy wants them to play. Concerning Roy's performance as our manager I don't think he did too much wrong given the circumstances. He only has been at the club for five minutes and I expect better performances on a more regular basis soon to come.

    His signings, well, we will never know whether Insua was put on the transfer list by Rafa, if he refuses to sign a new deal and the club simply tries to get something instead of letting him go for free. Therefor we needed a left-back. Konchesky is not Roberto Carlos, that's for sure, but he is not as bad as people try to make him. And he is better than Insua. People keep on saying how Insua was going to develop. Well, he won't develop any speed and that's where he was lacking most. Meireles isn't a bad player. I don't know what you have against him. Aurelio was a dangerous signing given his injury record, but he is a good player when fit. Given the lack of funds I can see why we re-signed him. Who else, Poulsen. Well, I think he will take some time to adapt to the Prem. Just like many players before him. His last performance wasn't half-bad. This signing may still be a bit like Morientes. With little money to spend you have to take risks. Rafa did it, Roy does it. People will defend Rafa but condemn Roy. Is that fair. Shelvey I think is a very promising youngster and Roy is giving quite a few of our youngsters some game time. You may ask me in five years whether I think this was a good signing by Roy. Jovanvic was Rafa's signing, at least that's what I think. If he becomes good I will credit Rafa for this signing, even though I am not a big fan of the Inter manager anymore. Jones won't get many games and I actually didn't see him play yet (I had to defend my thesis the morning after the Northampton match and therefor opted to prepare for that instead of watching a football match). Can't say anything about our reserves and youth goalkeepers, but if they are any good we should have used them as back up instead of signing Jones. Cole was a good signing. He is a player who can make things happen, though I think he is best played through the middle. Not too much wrong with Roy's signings.

    Hope to have answered you question sufficiently.

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  123. Please show me where i mentioned meireles or shelvey or cole for that matter??

    I think we certainly did downgrade, care to compare their records and trophy cabinets? And don't forget Roy's had a few years head start on Rafa!!

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  124. Well said! I agree entirely. I recently watched some DVDs of FA Cup Finals in the 60's and it brought home just how far the players/game has sunk.

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  125. Think you are wrong there Jaimie, did you ever see the likes of tommy smith or graham souness play?
    I can guarantee they would have taken him down without a second thought, lets not pretend its something new, did you ever see the leeds side of the 60's/70's?

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  126. You are 100% correct

    Cheating is an attempt to deceive, defraud ie gain an unfair advantage by deceiving the referee

    Fouling is a blatant and deliberate act which openly contradicts the rules

    Therefore fouling is acceptable and punishable by the rules as they stand, cheating is a subversive act which confounds the rules as they currently stand due to the difficulty in detecting them

    Hence, we need video technology

    JAIMIE, FAIR DO'S TO YOU ---------- ADVERTS!!!! Controversy = Hits = Adverts

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  127. As an aside

    Just watched Barca hammer Real Madrid's new Galacticos

    Barca and Arsenal are the only teams who play the game like it should be played

    We should hire in some Barcelona coaches and re-invent ourselves, even if it takes 10 years

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  128. Except, now that you are generating funds from hits, it makes you kinda illegitimate

    For example, the fact that you are deliberately riling everybody with Rafa taunts will generate hits = revenue, this is "cheating" for hits on a site that boasts "critical realism"

    One question, have you ever played football? Have you ever been on the receiving end of a two footed lunge from a fat centre half?

    If the answer is no then you couldn't possibly understand that the only way to retaliate without getting into a kicking match and getting red carded yourself is to score a goal on the bastid, by whatever means possible - sly handball, sly nudge, avoid and exaggerate the next attempted contact etc

    It's part of the game. Everything goes until resources are provided to cut it out on the spot - Video replays are the answer

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  129. There you go: "Anteater, are you happy with [...] the players signed by Roy [...]??

    I am not inclined to attack and denigrate at this stage of his stint at our club.

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  130. Actually - RB did bring in some of the Barcelona's coaching system in.

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  131. Is this not libelous to specifically name players you think are on PEDs? Please provide your proof or at least justify your statement with one iota of evidence?

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  132. I agree where is promoting of fair play in football but Konchesky being red carded at the end may have not been a bad thing as he is useless.

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  133. According to the negative votes i will take it that another 6 people are more concerned about a sky pundits comments than worrying about their team!

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  134. Roy also gave Fulham Dalla Valla as part of the Konchesky deal, we were getting offers of £3m for Dalla Valle last season with Benitez at the time comparing his style to Torres then after an injury hit campaign Hodgson gives him away for our worst left back since Traore or Vignal

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  135. Jamie

    Had Konchesky the nuts to foul Lennon, it woun't be viewed in the same vein as diving to gain an advantage, it will be more like taking one for the team.

    Did you even notice that all our defenders were on the yellow card? yet not a single Tottenham player was carded for blatant infringements.

    How about the two Kuyt -Penalties? 

    Would have loved to read what you have to say about cheating OR better-still, incompetent referees like the one that officiated the Tottenham/Liverpool FC game.

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  136. <span>'Taking one for the team' - This attitude represents everything that's wrong with football. I guess you think Luis Suarez 'took one for the team' during the world cup when he deliberately handled on the line and stopped a certain goal?</span>

    What a guy.  Deserving of immense credit, right?

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  137. Fact is, never mind fouling, we had two left backs on the pitch, presumably Aurelio was on to give Konchesky a bit of support in dealing with Lennon, both failed miserably. And, I'm afraid, Hodgson made a negative substitution when there was space all over the park for the quicker players. If you are going to tell the likes of Babel that they have till xmas to prove themself, that was the time, with 20 minutes to go, to say 'go on lad, show us what you can do'. Considering that people believe that Babel has no game intelligence, a wide open field with plenty of space for the quicker players to run into would have been made for him. As other players were tiring, and Tottenham must have had some tired players on there, that should have been a chance for the guy to come on do something. If Roy did not see fit to put him on then, he shouldn't have him on the bench at all.

    As for the comments about all the players that Hodgson removed and how it would have been ok if Rafa had done it, the fact that Roy had only been there for 3 months is exactly the reason that he should have kept those youngsters. He decided, in no time at all, that those players were surplus. Aquilani for Poulsen, what other team in the world would have made that choice? Part of giving a manager a chance is looking at decisions that they make, if he does not want to give some of the young players more than 3 months, why should anyone give him any longer? These type of decisions are markers as to the manager's thoughts about the game. Were Hodgson to sell Torres, Reina and Gerrard in January and replace them for Cole, Almunia and Carrick, would we say 'give him a chance, he's only been there 6 months'? Of course not, every decision, however early, gives people an idea of the manager's philosophy on the game. And making final decisions, like moving players on, that cannot be reversed, will colour people's opinion more than playing this player or that player, a decision that can be changed in future. Roy left himself open to these judgements when he moved people on without taking a very long look at them. Now, if he had brought in Ashley Cole, no one would be complaining, but whether it is 3 months or 3 years, if you do these things to bring in Konchesky, people are not going to be happy. 

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  138. Konchesky did not foul because Lennon went past him too quickly and the useless lump did not even know he was there.
    Play him 1 in 3 and he will be fine, any more and he is a liability

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