10/29/2010 12:35:00 pm

Well said, Roy! How Liverpool FC has wasted £170m on 'expensive failures' over the years

Hot on the heels of NESV's recent statement about being 'smart' in the transfer market, Liverpool manager Roy Hodgson has blasted LFC's transfer record, specifically highlighting how, historically, much of the the club's transfer funding has been mismanaged, a point I have been arguing for years.

Earlier in the week, John W Henry, NESV's principal backer, made it clear that he was not impressed with LFC's current transfer policy:

"We have to be more efficient. When we spend a dollar it has to be wisely. We cannot afford player contracts that do not make long-term sense. We have to be smart, bold, aggressive"

Today, Hodgson has underlined the fact that far too much of Liverpool's transfer funding has been wasted:

"I think you can pay an awful lot of money for poor players and you can pay not very much money for very good ones – it is all to do with how good your scouting and your eye is. There are a lot of things here that the club has got to get right. We have got a lot more expensive failures on our list than good players that we have brought in for next to nothing. Free transfers don’t necessarily mean that you have got a bargain. My experience of them has been very mixed. You need to be sure that the player you get can do the job you want from him.”

The amount of money (historically) wasted by various LFC managers in the transfer market is beyond belief:

* Since 1990, Liverpool has spent 528m on transfers.

* The turnover of players during that period - especially over the last 6-8 years - has been massively high, and many of those players bought/sold have been sub-standard, and/or the wrong players for the club.

* Tens of millions of the club's money has been wasted on buying expensive flops, many of whom were clealy the wrong players to buy in the first place (Case in point: Aquilani - why buy someone with a long history of injuries; why hring him to the club when he was *still* injured?!).

* Wasted money includes not only transfer fees but exorbitant signing on fees (Philipp Degen; Joe Cole etc); agents fees; unwarranted inflated salaries, and other costs associated with transfers.

Here is a list players I believe to be 'expensive failures' from the last 20 years. For me, an expensive failure is a player who costs the club money in transfer fees, salary etc but has no specific, measurable, consistent positive impact on the team, and/or did not improve the team in any beneficial way. (Some figures are approximate).

Paul Stewart - £2.3m
Phil Babb - £3.6m
Oyvind Leonhardsen - £3.5m
Paul Ince - £4.2m
Mark Kennedy - £1.5m
Sean Dundee - £1.8m
Jean Michel Ferri - £1.5m
Bernard Diomede - £3m
El Hadj Diouf - £10m
Salif Diao - £5m
Chris Kirkland - £6m
Bruno Cheyrou - £3.7m
Harry Kewell - £5m
Christian Ziege - £5.5m
Josemi - £2m
Antonio Nunez - £1.5m
Mark Gonzalez - £1.5m
Jermain Pennant - £6.7m
Fernando Morientes - £6.3m
Robbie Keane - £20m
Alberto Aquilani - £18m
Glen Johnson - £17m
Ryan Babel - £11.5m
Gabriel Palletta - £2m
Lucas Leiva - £6m
Diego Cavalieri - £3.5m
Andrea Dossena - £8m
Albert Riera - £7m
Jan Kromkamp £4.3

TOTAL: £171.9m

Factor in huge salaries, undeserved bonuses, bloated signing-on fees etc and the figure suddenly becomes much higher. And this list does not include the salaries/signing on fees wasted on ineffective free signings like Fabio Aurelio, Philipp Degen, Andrei Voronin and Joe Cole, OR the money spent on countless young players brought in and then shipped out in double quick time over the years.

One thing that people seem to forget (or, more accurately, ignore) is this: it's not just about loss of money, it's about loss of benefit to the team. As a result of wasting money on the wrong players, the benefit the club *would* have received from buying the *right players* is lost.

Imagine if the £170m above had been spend on the RIGHT PLAYERS. There would have been a positive knock on effect over the years that may have propelled the club to greater heights.

You can recoup all the money you like in player sales but that doesn't suddenly reverse transfer mistakes that were made in the first place; it doesn't wipe out the money ultimately LOST on transfers (like the £8m lost on Robbie Keane).

Hodgson is right to make this point about expensive failures, but rather ironically, he is also culpable of the same mistakes. Whatever way you slice it, Joe Cole is an expensive failure so far. Big fat retirement fund- sorry, I mean playing contract; a massive signing-on fee no doubt. And for what? Huffing and puffing around the pitch like a headless chicken, with negligible end product?

Hodgson also re-signed one of Rafa Benitez's expensive failures (!), Fabio Aurelio. I don't deny that he is talented but WHAT IS THE POINT IF HE IS PERPETUALLY INJURED?! How have Liverpool benefited from his signing, either under Benitez or Hodgson?

These are precisely the kind of transfes John Henry was talking about in his comments above, i.e. players near the end of their careers who offer nothing consistently to the club.

Over the last 20 years, Liverpool has spent MORE money on transfers than both Arsenal and Man United. Liverpool have no league titles to show for it; Arsenal and Man United have 14 between them.

That tells it's own story.

The club has been suffering from the knock-on effect of negligent transfer spending and shoddy squad-building for years. Things need to change, and thankfully, it looks like Liverpool FC may *finally* have the right Owners in charge to push through a much-needed - and long overdue - change in approach.

Jaimie Kanwar






213 Comments :

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5+18 said...

What a sad pathetic little man you really are.

Bored said...

Boring

Whopper said...

Paul Stewart?

Goodness me.

Your grasping for straws knows no limit, does it?

Ian said...

I'm not going to get into gross or net spend.  One thing is for sure it's hard to argue with that list (for once!).  Babb, Ince, Lucas and Johnson at least in part justify their fee by number of appearances, if not with quality football.  The rest however, did next to nothing for LFC.

luke said...

You are full of crap

Gomez said...

You are very misdirected, Jamie.

How many of those latter signings were forced on the manager because he wasn't allowed to go the extra yard and sign from the Top Draw.

Pennant was lame, yes, but we only signed him for £7m because the board wouldn't sanction £12m for Daniel Alves (who 2 seasons later was valued at £24m)

The sad truth was Rafa (a footballing mind) was having to go through Parry, Hicks and Gillette (not footballing minds) to get any signings done. By which time players like Vidic, Barry, Rodwell and other top players were snapped up by our rivals.

Enough with the Witch-hunt, lad. How can Hodgson say anything about bad signings when he spent £10m on Koncheski and Poulsen?

Yosser said...

A bit rich coming from someone who signed Poulson & Konchesky.

luke said...

You are like an assh@le, nothing comes out of you is good.
Either a fart, which makes alot of sound but no substance.
Or full of shit and make the whole place stink.

Josek said...

I'm pretty sure Jamie that all the Rafa brigade will take this as a personal attack on them as the seem to do in all your pieces. I have to again agree with you on this as  I have been argueing the very same myself for years. No doubt you'll be told about all Ferguson's & Wenger's expensive mistakes without ever using a brain cell to realise that you can afford the odd mistake when your winning year in year out. Good article Jamie

Torres9 said...

Rafa wasted money on occassions but at least we were competetive in the league and in the CL most of the time. I would kill for that now.

Enough with Rafa's bad points at least give him credit for some things, Jesus. You would think Rafa was the Devil incarnate.

MG01 said...

Yes we have bought some shite. But then who hasn't?

Fergie bought Barthez, Djemba-Djemba, Veron, Forlan, Owen, Silvestre, Saha, Anderson, Taibi, Kleberson, Prunier, Quinton Fortune, Llorent Blanc, David May, Jordi Cryuff, David Belion. And that's just off the top of my head!

I can't be arsed to find out how much that lot cost, but I bet they weren't cheap!

Of course we've made some shocking mistakes in the transfer market, but so does everyone. You can't be certain how well any given player is going to do in your team/country.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

This is not about Benitez only - that is what you're bringing to the table.  The list of transfers I include contains players signed by the last 4 Liverpool managers.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

This is a prime example of the tunnel vision of the pro-Benitez brigade.  How is this an attack on Benitez?  It highlights transfer mistakes of ALL Liverpool's managers over the last 20 years.  It is NOT just about Benitez.

Paul said...

what an over simplistic peice of garbage...no doubt players in that list never lived up to it...however hindsight is a wonderful think...look at some of those players...Morientes, record scorer at the time in the champions league...looking for someone to give some attacking options...no never worked out...but when he was signed,not a lot of argument...Ryan Babel, highly rated Dutch attacker...never worked out...Robbie Keane...don't remember a lot of argument about his arrival...was handled badly by Rafa though...doesn't mean signing his was a bad idea...Diouf...cheating scumabag...however came here of the back of a good world cup and been african player of the year...

even having a go at Joe Cole...who has been very dissapointing in my book...again didn't see you complain at the time...

always very clever to be wise after the event though...poor article

Jaimie Kanwar said...

As Josek says above, if you have great success then your mistakes can be forgiven.  Who cares if ferguson has made mistakes - he has won 11 league titles and 2 CL trophies with United.

Kenny Dalglish made transfer mistakes too (Jimmy Carter and Don Hutchison anyone?!) but who cares - he brought consistent success to Liverpool.

Paul said...

Is it possible that the problem is the model the club is using and not so much the managers? No long term goal, immediate success rather than building etc

Jaimie Kanwar said...

People never learn, do they?  This post is only about 10 minutes old and 10 people have been banned already for derogatory comments/insults etc.  No skin off my nose.  If you want to be permanently banned (by IP, so multiple accounts won't work), then keep it coming.

yogi said...

Yes money has been wasted by managers but nodody can match Roy's 100% miss record Konchesky and Poulsen were two players that I for one had huge misgivings about before they came and I'm not the only one. Joe Cole seems more and more likely to be another Harry Kewell, does he justify a place in the team? Brad Jones obviously was always backup but at over £2 million he is overpriced. And then we come to Meireles, how did this guy cost over £11 million? What does he do? He doesn't tackle, he doesn't read the game like Mascherano did, he doesn't score many and his passing range isn't exactly Alonso like. So before Hodgson blames others he should look at himself and hang his own head in shame

Jer said...

Great article again Jamie. The thing is mate, the Rafa brigade will never qualify the simple facts that stand against Rafa. He failed, spent shed loads of money, bought poor players. and left us in the shit in 7th place last season. They go about the net and gross spend, its actually irrelevant how much money he recooped, he still spent 270 mil and bought 75 players, shocking stuff. Thee very FACT that Dalglish, Rush, Houghton,Aldrige, Collymore, Whelan, Kennedy, Hansen and the match of the day pundits, the RTE pundits, the newspapers, the radio Alan Green, Alan brazil all said he had to go doesn't wash with the pro Rafa fans. Its actually amazing that they cannot accept his failures. We all know he had his success, but master tactician my arse!! They won't give Roy a chance and blame him for everything and believe if Rafa was still here we'd be in the top 4, the mind boggles, it actually borderlines with stupidity. Keep up the realism Jamie, this site says it how it is. 

An actual liverpool fan said...

As a supposed liverpool fan all you seem to do is slag off the club.

Why dont you piss off back to old trafford where you are clearly from.

Paul said...

(Posted in your previous article):

Jaimie, they last few debates about Rafa's and LFCs transfer spending has made it all the more obvious to me that we need to add salaries to gross and net transfer money spent when looking at transfer spending. I have come to appreciate your valid point that Gross spend is important, but I strongly feel that gross spend and net spend AND salaries are interlinked and that none of the 3 factors alone can give a good picture of a manager's performance in the transfer market. I have been under the impression that for the last 20 or so years LFC have spent more money than most if not all premier league teams, but that our salaries were relatively lower than the top teams like Manu, Arsenal and more recently Chelsea.  
 
You're welcome to tell me to piss off, but what I'd love to see is a report showing gross spend and {net spend + salaries} for LFC, Manu, Arsenal and Chelsea since say 1990 as you did above. i.e. a report as above, ideally showing all 4 teams, but salaries included in net spend figure, and sales not required - or for ease of viewing, 2 reports, the first just gross and the second just net + salaries.  
 
I feel that an amount paid for a player can mean nothing without knowing his salary. For example the press makes Joe Cole's acquisition out to be a masterstroke but if we're paying him about 6 mill a year, over 5 years we will have paid him 30 mill, and we may even have paid him a sign-on fee on top of that! This means over 5 years Mereiles, for whom we we paid 11.5 mill, will cost less, because I'm certain his salary is no more than 40-60 grand a week although I am just guessing.  
 
To go on, if salaries are low, it could also explain the need for a high turnover of players at Liverpool, cause let's face it, to keep a player happy you have to give him a high salary and/or lots of playing time. Crouch for example (from what I've been made to believe) didn't get either, so it would be impossible to keep him (happy) at Liverpool. This would justify our need for high Gross and Net transfer expenditure and prove that the model centering around higher salaries and lower transfer expenditure is more suited to stability and success, as shown at Manu at Arsenal. Anyway I'm making too many assumptions, would love to see a report on salaries.<span>
</span>

v3nd3ttagaz said...

Well said, this guy is an absolute tool, ban me like I give a shit, the whole point of most peoples replies on here and to tell you what an utter gobshite you are, that you work for the S*N and that you live at old trafford every weekend rather than anfield.

Your a disgrace to LFC, and Shankley himself would turn in his grave at some of your articles you utter tit

Jaimie Kanwar said...

None of that changes the fact that a manager is still responsible for indentifying and signing his players.  Managers are responsible, not the alleged 'model' the club is using.  How do we know that there's no long term goal; immediate success rather than building.  I don't believe there is any evidence to support that at all.

Torres9 said...

I think a lot of us Liverpool fans need to join John Stewart in his March For Sanity. So many extremely polarizing views with no respect or insight into other people's view point. Everything is black and white with no shades of grey. Time to put the Rafa thing to bed, I loved him but he's at Inter now. Let's focus on the future and hopefully some juicy new signings. Still think that we should be giving Pacheco, Amoo, Shelvey, Kelly and Ince more of a go. Even Chelsea are using more of their youngsters. I'd rather give a hungry Pacheco a chance over a laboured Maxi. Look at Canales, he's getting a good few mins at Real, Pacheco was better than Canales at the Euro U19 but has ahardly been seen in the league (Then again Real are actually winning games). Not just blaming Woy for this, Rafa did the same, but Pacheco is now a sason wiser, should be getting more of a chance to shine, things can't get much worse.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yes, because it's fair and reasonable to call the likes of Konchesky and Poulsen 'failures' after 4 months at the club. They have not been responsible for Liverpool's crap start; the whole squad is poor (with some exceptions), and they have to deal with the defensive liability that is Glen Johnson; a slow and ageing Carragher; hit and miss players like Skrtel, Lucas et al.  And you also slam Meirelles after a couple of months at the club?! I don't need to say anything else.

K said...

Gomez,

In this article not once has it been metioned that it was Rafa's fault. I find the fact that you immidiately jump to his defence tells a story of its own. During Rafa time some great players, and some real dross has come through the door... he takes some of the responsibility for that, as does he for Istanbul, all the cups and all the league failures! 

Back to the actual articley, whichever way you cut it, circa £530m has been spent over a 20 year period... that is circa £25.1 per year (I know we wouldnt have that much in the 90's and inflation plays a part). With that amount of money we should have a better team than we currently do! AND we should have the Premier League title at least once... esp if we consider it our 'bread and butter'

What i do hop is that the NSEV actualy stick to their word... it pains me to see my clubs (and ulimiately my (i pay for merchendise (sp) and tickets)) money being thrown away down the drain. Jamie I agree... just not as optomistic about NSEV... been there before!

YNWA

John said...

Your point? Man U also wasted money on players.. below are few of those...

Michael Carrick (£18.6million, Tottenham)
Owen Lee Hargreaves (£17m, Bayern Munich)
Luís Carlos Almeida da Cunha (£14m, Sporting)
Kieran Edward Richardson (£5m, Sunderland)
Dimitar Ivanov Berbatov (£30.75m)
<span>David Bellion</span> – Sunderland to Manchester United (2 mil)
<span>Eric Djemba-Djemba</span> – Nantes to Manchester United (3.5 mil)
<span>Tim Howard</span> – MetroStars (MLS) to Manchester United (2.2 mil)<span></span>
<span>Kleberson</span> – Atletico Paranaense to Manchester United (5.9 mil)<span>Alan Smith</span> – Leeds United to Manchester United (7 mil)
<span>Gabriel Heinze</span> – Paris Saint-Germain to Manchester United (6.9 mil)<span>

</span><span>
</span> Jesper Blomqvist - 1998 - Transfer fee then: £4.4mMassimo Taibi - 1999 - Transfer fee then: £4.5MKarel Poborsky - 1996 - Transfer fee then: £3.5MLouis Saha - 2004 - Transfer fee then: £12,800,000Danny Wallace - 1989 - Transfer fee then: £1,200,000


Kleberson
Miller
Dong
Cruyff
Manucho
Barthez
Bosnich
Taibi
Blomqvist
Bellion
Smith Alan
Carroll
Greening
Poborsky
Dublin
Nevland
McGibbon
Sealy
Coton
Ricardo
Howard
Berg
Tosic?

DC said...

dont stop there Jamie...u forgot to include Collymore (8.5mill), Jean Michel Ferri (1.7mills), Craig Bellamy (6mills) & Djbril Cisse (14mills).......a total waste of cash.

bwoods35 said...

The history lesson is there for all to see. Why are we talking again about buying bit players in January, look at what came in to the club this summer. When will we allow the youth team players to develop into the first team.  Don't tell me that Stephen Darby hasn't more to offer than Konchesky. Push Johnston into right midfield with Kelly behind. Jay into the centre with Steve G and Cole playing behind Torres. The team is half ways there. A left side of Darby and Babel with Kuyt(when fit) and Pacheco available to mix it up. Buy quality at one player 20Million is the only way. No more 8 and 10 million journey men. 

Muz said...

Wenger winning year in year out lol .... you obviously know your football, Alex Ferguson has won by buying the FA and getting all decisions his way. It is frightening how many decisions go for the Mancs, and big ones that could effect the results I would estimate it at around 15 points a season minimum. They got 3 points on Sunday alone when Neville should have been off. Some of those expensive flops were also sold for much higher amounts ie Mark Gonzalez. In Rafa's defence I would say the astute dealings with Alonso and if he was still here Mascherano (who would have gone for closer to 30 - 35 mill) would have covered his odd mistakes which all managers make. He was also more successfull than Wenger during his tenure. Despite having muppets at the helm.

MG01 said...

Fair point, but his mistakes were easily ignored / for 2 reasons.

1: Utd's successful exploitation of the financial market for the past 30+ years meant an occassional shite buy could be moved on quickly without any real damage to the club's essential infrastructure.
2: The majority of Utd's recent success was based on successful implementation of youth team players - Beckham, Nevilles, Scholes, Giggs etc. Again, this meant that shite buys could be overlooked.

Surely then the issue isn't so much the occassional mistake in the transfer market - as I say, and as you concur, everyone makes mistakes. The issue is more that the club's marketable assets need to be pushed far more astutely. And equally, the youth team set-up needs to be handled with much more care than it has been for as long as I can remember.

John said...

I have sent you a list of players Man U wasted money on add Veron and Forlan to that list and you are looking at another £38M.

Aiyic said...

I totally agree with Roy's words, but I get a sense that they are not his own - or at least were inspired by someone else. It's how public the comments are, and the timing that I have a problem with. If we were doing well in the league with said over-priced players long since jettisoned, then go your hardest Roy.

Consider the unquantifiable effect on the squad - are they wondering which individuals he's talking about specifically? I know I would. Now there might be a knock-on effect of players upping their game so to say, 'well it's certainly not me he's talking about'. But I should have such high hopes of pampered millionaires.

I have gone the whole of my whole twenties and (almost) thirties of Liverpool pissing away squillions - I can nearly recall the moment my heart sank upon hearing each and everyone who I knew in my heart and soul that they wouldn't cut the mustard - Paul Stewart and Julian Dicks being chief among them (with some notable exceptions of being pleasantly surprised: Crouchy)

Is there a porthole somewhere in a mezzanine level where one can 'be Roy Hodgson'?

The latest words attributed to Roy are not up for argument, it's just that needn't have been said publicly. The presedence set of players transferring from Liverpool to Utd is negligible (last time was 62 yrs ago), and this what Roy should point out when asked obviously provocative questions like this. He should point out that Heinze was the most recent enquiry, and point out how that went.

He has the demeanour of a Liverpool manager, but the words that come out are almost always either regrettable, or untimely, or both. He can reassure our top players privately of our transfer ambitions, but publicly just play down any speculation when quizzed.

John said...

Ferguson won 11 titles and 2 CL in 23 yrs.... Rafa won 1 CL and 1 FA cup in 6 yrs... We are talking about value for money right? 

What you fail to realise is Ferguson won NOTHING in his first 6 yrs, effectively if Ferguson was sacked in 1991.. He would have won nothing.... But he wasnt... You cant possibly compare a 23 year tenure to a 6 yr.. :-[

oaky said...

Yes jamie but hodgson has got his own list of players to add to that list:

Poulson and Konchesky (how much did they cost 10m +)
for players near enough 30 thats good business dont you reckon.

Jamie you put lucas there but at the moment I m more happy to see lucas name over a certain poulsen.

There media is baised and would like local managers doing well.

I agree about all the points you have made about benetiz and houllier. But you seem to forgot both managers won trophies at liverpool which eluded british managers before them (evans and souness).

Also Hodgson managerial skills are still being talked up eventhough hes taken a team that finished 7th last year to 18th this year which after nine game shows sign of a good manager.

Before you start I aint a benetiz fan, he shot himself in the foot playing politics with the board which is not what Liverpool are about. But as a liverpool fan I want best for the club and if that means employing another foreign manager so be it because lets face it not many good british managers out there.

Plus jamie I just want your thoughts on Hodgsons comments regard Torres sale to united?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

How could I forget Ferri?!  :) I disagree about Collymore - he was fantastic for Liverpool; scored and creatd lots of goals and formed a great partnership with Robbie Fowler.  I also disagree re Bellamy and Cisse, but I can see how fans would see them as expensive failures.

Realist said...

Jaimie please explain how Gabriel Paletta is en expensive flop?! He was traded back to Boca for Insua, a player who is worth well in excess of £2m infact didn't we almost sell him to Forientina for close to £5m?

I'm afraid your use of Paletta as an example is a clear indication of how desperate you are to smear Benitez as much as possible. And yes I am pro-Benitez, he's an outstanding manager who made some mistakes towards the end with us, but was hounded out by a xenphobic nation of sports writers and moronic pundits wanting English managers at our big Clubs.

How's he faring at Inter again? 3rd in Serie A with the best defensive record in the League? A team of players whom for the most part believe their football is better than it was under Mourinho and the majority of the Italian press agree.

"Well said Roy!"? Are you serious? You think the best way of boosting an ailing team's confidence is to publically criticise your high-rollers?

Hodgson is an idiot, he trades on the success he's had with backwater nations in footballing terms. When he's had to deliver at bigger Club's he's failed.

I'd also add you're a complete hypocrite Jaimie, how you can "defend" Poulsen and Konchesky (who are clearly awful by the way) citing 4 months as an unfair amount of time to judge them on but attack Keane (after his miss against Atletico in AUGUST just a few weeks into his LFC career, you were critising him!) and Aquilani weeks into their respective LFC careers?!

Please explain that Jaimie? It's unfair to judge Poulsen and Konchesky who've had a clear run in the side but it's fine to slam Aquilani and Keane early on in their LFC careers? Hmm...I wonder what the common denominator is? Oh, I remember, they were signed by Benitez!

HYPOCRITE.

mark said...

i'd disagree about ince, as i thought he did alright playing wise, it's a shame he couldn't stop being the 'govnor' which again, was his downfall.

jury is still out on glenn johnson

lucas is a good player and will prove to be a bargain at £6m.

John said...

Good point... But LIVERPOOL ALSO WON 11 MAJOR TROPHIES SINCE 1986. NO?


http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/history/honours

fraggs said...

I think failing to live up to the standards of Wenger and Ferguson is a questionable sin, they are basically the two best managers in English top flight football in the past 30 years. What's more odd for me is this notion that we need to sign better players. Right. Really? That's the plan? We need to stop signing players who are not good and instead sign players who are better. OK. Should note that one down and get cracking. 

Seriously, what else is this except a massive b!tch session where we whine about how terrible the signings have been for the past so many years? Do we think managers are signing duds on purpose? Do we think any future manager is magically going to do better? Are the new owners going to come out with some previously unknown scouting system that delivers only successful signings?

It's an interesting list, indeed we've had our share of poor signings. We've also not won the title in over 20 years. I just don't quite see the point. There is no solution here and I would suggest fans need a reality check. This is the toughest league in world football, made even tougher by the absurd spending of up and coming clubs and the man you ultimately have to beat might well be the best club manager in the history of the game. WTF is the point of saying "we need to do better"? It's so obvious it's painful. 

elnino said...

Its difficult to understand why you keep dwelling over the past spendings of the club always...
If you ask me or any Liverpool fans about whether the players you have listed above are failures or not? then there will be hardly any difference of opinion.  Everyone will agree with the conclusion that they were failures at our club... In fact, you can already add Poulsen and Konchesky to that list. But the debatable issue is always who is responsible for the all the signings? or did we really wanted to sign these players or we had to due to the circumstances created by the club finances and the transfer market rates that prevailed? 
I can understand why many fans are still siding with Rafa for having signed the players that he had to sign.  He had to compete in the market with Mourinho and Alex who had a better say within their board to make the big money signings.  They were able to sign 20million + players continously in the market.  Whereas we had a budget of 15 or 20 and we had to get 4 or 5 players for different positions.  I can remember everytime LFC targetted a player, Mourinho used to enter the market to hype the price eg. Dani Alves and in some cases he even got the player eg. Maluda.  Unfortunately when Chelsea did slow down their big spendings we got to deal with Man city. 
So lets not blame simply the past managers for the kind of players they brought in. They did try their best.  Its really sick to see negative headllines in the press even after we have seen Hicks and Gillet out of the club.  I guess its time to move on.  Why dont you Jamie?

John said...

Hey you need us much if you site is monetised... The more you ban the less you make... So dont make it as if you are doing us a favour !!!! 8-) It is all about pageviews for advertising $$$

Josek said...

My Best friend wanted a Ferrari for £100k but it was too expensive for him and his bank manager said no so he bought an Nissan Micro instead for £50k. Does that make sence to you. How on earth can you defend Rafa Benitez's signings wih that sort of bull logic. He spent like a spoilt teenager with her daddys credit card. Never put any thought into the fact of how he inteded to utilise players, Bable being a prime example of this.

John said...

Jamie you fail to answer my question on Gross/Net

Sell Torres, Gerrard and Reina for £100M invest the proceed into new player staff
Gross = 100M, Net = 0


Retain Torres, Gerrard and Reina, invest 100M in the new players


Gross is 100M, Net is also 100M.


As you can see, Gross is the same and NET is difference.. See why NET is makes more sense?

oaky said...

Jer rafas gone theres nothing we can do about that....But being 18th after 9 games (as a liverpool you have had your chance and its time to go mate).

Before you start I am not a benetiz fan and I wanted him to go in the summer. But at the same time I dont want to eat my words by having another crap season and also risk losing our top players.

Torres and Riena are most likely to go if we dont climb table which will make the managers job even harder next year.

Hodgson is a good guy but theres something not right, if you listen to his press conferences you will release he talks about liverpool as a middle table team and for me a liverpool fan that is unacceptable.

we sacked rafa because 7th was not good enough and now a managers saying we going to be a middle table team (not acceptable).

Plus his comments about torres and man utd (we ll cross that bridge when we come to it) To me this is a invite for fergie to bid for torres. Hodgson forgetting that he is not managing fulham but liverpool. Also if we are ever at the level of Fulham we still wont sell our best players to united because of the rivarly.

Also stop listening to the media made because if you believe in the media then you will also believe that Bolton and Liverpool have same level of players. (On skysports website) you can read it even matched teams. Not once mentioned liverpool are underperforming. Also evertons starting 11 is better then ours.
That is amazing considering 4 out of the 11 Hodgson has bought.
and the others include Reina, Carragher, Gerrard and Torres.

Hodgsons failures are blamed on not a good eleven and a team not good enough. You also forget the predecessor the year before had most of the top players out more then half the season.

I am sorry but just as rafa had to go so does roy.

Rob said...

Jamie,

That's all well and good and I do agree that money has been wasted on the wrong players however most of the time when you buy a player its a calculated risk based on your scouts and how you think that player will fit into the team.  IMO this feeds into the argument that Gary and others have been making about having the money to buy the right kind of players. Its clear Liverpool need to buy quality players but even Hodgeson has been forced to spend nearly 10m on Poulsen and Konchesky who with no disrepect would not get into Arsenal or Manchester United, Chelesea or even Man city's squads. What NESV has said is encouraging in an article today in the Times John W talked about buying the right players if you're going to spend big money. Therefore I hope that rather than spending 30m on 2-3 players Hodgeson or whoever ;)  will spend that money on just two players left back and a striker to ensure that we get quality rather than just going for quantity.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

This kind of comment amuses me so much as it's so ignorant. Once again:


THIS SITE IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN AN ADVERTISING FREE ZONE

Your powers of observation are not so hot, are they?

Show me one piece of advertising on this site.

Please explain how I make money out of page-views.

The images on the right hand side of the page are NOT adverts; they are reciprocal links to sites that cary my articles.  The Harley Davidson image is there because I ride a Harley, and love Harleys!

If I was so obseesed with pageviews, whould would I regularly take 4-5 months off from the site?

It's not about money in the slightest.  And no one visited this site I would still write because it's not about pageviews either.

Kid Bamboo said...

Not going to argue with too many on that list, apart from to say as a fan I was overjoyed when Kewell, Morientes and Babel were all signed.  At the time all those signings were viewed as bargains (with the possible exception of a teenage Babel, but given his potential I doubt you would have found many Liverpool fans critical of his signing at the time).  Obviously all 3 turned out to be bobbins, but its wonderful the advantage hindsight gives... 

oaky said...

Jamie yogi doesnt know what hes talking about.
But these players are ageing and the price paid is not justified.
Like I said before I prefer lucas over poulsen and its right to call lucas a flop and poulsen not because hes only been there for four months.
Ok but hes not a player with time on his side and alot of recoup value like a so called lucas.

Also isnt the argument wasted money, isnt hodgson saying spending more wisely. I dont think 10 m on these two players is spending wisely.

John said...

Possibly not that hot... I didnt observed Man U wasted a lot of money also tho and Liverpool won 11 majors since 1996...

So I wouldnt say my power of observation is bad either... :)

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No, it's an indication that you, like so many people, have no idea what you are talking about.  Liverpool lost 2m on Palletta, and that is stated clearly in the club's accounts.  The proof is in this article:

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/10/debunking-liverpool-fc-myths-no-8-top.html

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No, this is a pointless example and proves nothing, except what you want it to prove in your own mind.

oaky said...

Also looking at your list there are a few players which I dont think were bad signings but circumstances and bad management made them bad signings.
E.g morientas who would have believed he would have become such a bad flop. I think it was rafas lack of understanding of the english game and how he played morientas that made him a flop.
Same can be said about harry kewell and robbie keane (proved premiership players but have flopped under rafa).
But to be fair the pattern looks like following eventhough its early days joe cole not doing so good (I know its early days thats why i have said it looks like)

John said...

It says a lot... Man U didnt have to trade some many players as most of the the players were retained.. essentially what Man U was doing is enchanving his squad... LOWER GROSS.

Benitez on the other hand came in and had to CHANGE majority of the playing staff, this is going to give you a HIGHER GROSS. NET is  what is important. I dont have to prove anything in my mind...

When are are trading, No one cares about how many trades you have booked, It is the PROFIT and LOSS we care about.. What you need to focus on is the amount of new investment... AS I have told you... An existing company need less investment than a new one... 8-)

Billium said...

Hodgson signs Poulsen and Konchesky (collectively 60 years old) for 10M.  Let's deal with today and tomorrow, not yesterday. The insinuation is that we've cocked-up in the past. So what? What matters is what happening today -- and it ain't getting any better; in fact, it's getting worse!

Kopite said...

Critical realism about LFC?! Three players in the list get regular games for LFC now, Lucas, Johnson and Babel. As a fan I find your inclusion of these players in a so called list of "waste of money transfers" incredible. They are not the actions of a fan. Not a true LFC fan. You get behind the team week in week out. You are a disgrace for including them.

<p>You clearly don't go to the games either because if you did you wouldn't have dreamt of including Lucas in this list. I am not pro Lucas or anti Lucas, I simply call it as I see it. His performances in the 4-1 at Old trafford and Derby win away at Everton are good examples. In fact he played very well on Sunday too but I'm guessing you only caught Match of the Day highlights. Good luck at naming me his great value £6 million replacement.
</p><p> 
</p><p>Lucas had a few bad games for the reds and everyone jumped on it. Suddenly every lazy journo and lazy blogger picked it up and started saying he wasn't good enough. For me he has improved a lot and if people bother to go to the game and watch him, well you know, may be you can form your own opinion rather than regurgitating someone elses, who incidentally didn't go to the game!</p>

Andy said...

This is such a subjective subject.  How do you define a players impact on the team?  In the seasons Phil Babb was at the club we didn't finish lower than 4th, and he played regularly.

Aquilani after finally getting over his injury problems was loaned out by Hodgson and is now playing very well for Juventus, is it his fault he was loaned out?

If lucas is that bad why was he always in the team ahead of players like Spearing?

As John pointed out, are you going to complete the same analysis for other teams in the Premier League?

Are you going to cover how that £170m is broken down? i.e. how much of it is still in the current squad (and therefore could add value to future performances) and how much was recouped in sales?

rafafan said...

jamie i know your not specifically having a go at rafa... just mainly rafa as he was the most recent and fresh to mind. mascherano, reina, torres and alonso....  i believe they are 4 of liverpools best ever signings. what do you make of them and do you believe roy hodgson would be able to attract them to the club if they were available today..... i have my reservations to say the least

Chesco said...

First off, I would like to say that we quickly need to get rid of this guy Roy. He's a  decent coach but not big team quality...dont think he's ever managed a Champions League game in his 30 plus years manegerial career. Secondly, i'm frightened to see who he'll bring in after he has already signed Konchesky & sent Insua out on loan who is currently better & potentially World Class, then sends Aqualani out on loan as he was just finding his way in the EPL & clearly has World Class ability to bring in Poulsen. Most knowledgeable already knew these 2 jokers weren't Liverpool quality just like the manager who brought them in (and yes after 4 months i can give them stick cuz they wasn't supposed to be purchased in the first place) Miereles is quality though. Finally, as far as expensive (10 mil pounds plus) signings go, the only real one was Keane (who we re-couped a good bit of that transfer fee) & arguably Babel (who actually had a good start to his LFC career). Glen Johnson is a regular starter for England and that was why he was a bit over-priced but still is a good signing (just plays too many full games without any rest (which is why i believe his form fluctuates). Rafa's expensive signings has made Liverpool the force they were these past 5 yrs in Europe. Alonso, Garcia, Kuyt, Mascherano, FERNANDO TORRES, Aqualani, Johnson, Babel. Plus the cheaper signins who would demand a high price now or quality who went for profit already like, Agger, Skrtel, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Arbeloa, Benyoum, Riera (was quality when played). Plus promising yougsters like Pacheco, N'Gog (who is are current leading scorer) Shevley, Sterling, Mavinga, Nemeth, Suso, Plessis, Insua                                                         

The Irish Rover said...

Come on Jamie!! A blind man can see Konchesky & Poulsen are poor players, & to think Roy wanted Carlton Cole!! Lol. What about Joe Cole ffs!! Didn't cost a transfer but £5 million a year in wages. Pot calling kettle black Roy. As much as you have a fair point about the whole team playing poorly, if you look at the matches Jamie you will see most of our goals came fro
Konchesky side. Roy has just continued where others have left off!!!

The Irish Rover said...

Come on Jamie!! A blind man can see Konchesky & Poulsen are poor players, & to think Roy wanted Carlton Cole!! Lol. What about Joe Cole ffs!! Didn't cost a transfer but £5 million a year in wages. Pot calling kettle black Roy. As much as you have a fair point about the whole team playing poorly, if you look at the matches Jamie you will see most of our goals came fro
Konchesky side. Roy has just continued where others have left off!!!

nandonumbernine said...

i agree with you in part but i do no way agree with what hodgson is saying. he let two up and coming youngsters leave to bring in konchesky, bought poulsen for what, 5 mill plus alberto aquilani. you've said aqui shouldnt have been signed cause he was injured. absolute drivel. the guy is a genius and had he been playing this year our midfield would be a lot stronger. plus, the guy signed a four/five year contract. 6 months out injured and taking time to settle in unfamiliar surroundings should have been allowed for.

doing that deal for poulsen/aqui, hardly efficiency from roy???

Jason said...

Excellent post. Jamie is guilty of the lazy jounalism he accuses many others of. Naming Lucas £6m replacement should be very interesting. And The Dnaiel Alves saga is a shocker. Also Simao (another quality lost signing). Further more Kyriagos has to go down as great value but only 6 months ago would have been considered a flop, give players time Jamie. Its the 'we want it now mentality' that has us in the current malaise. 

The problem that Jamie alludes to but fails to expand on is that bad signings are highlighted when you are doing average/badly or money is tight i.e. Liverpool. When you are Man utd a bad signing is overlooked (Veron, Taibi, Barthez) and signing an injured player is no problem (Zhirkov £17m anyone).

The spotlight under which Liverpool managers work (Rafa included) means any mistakes are magnified and so look to out-weigh any positives (Tores, Alonso, Agger etc.)

Of course Liverpool and that includes Rafa have wasted money but then there is no manager that has not.

Mike Arms said...

Hodgson has continued that trend with spending £10 million on Poulsen & Konchesky. The fact is all managers striving to get their teams playing better will sign lots of players that unfortunately do not make the grade, football is not an exact science it is based on peoples perceptions and impressions. If your chief scout reckons the player is the next best thing then you trust his judgement, sometimes you end up with a Babel instead of a Ronaldo but that's football, but sometimes you end up with a Torres instead of a Shevchenko. The only thing for certain is that if you don't take a chance and sign the player then you will never know for sure.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Excellent points, Paul.  Over the next week, te following articles will be posted:

* LFC wage spend over the last 20 years compared to Arsenal + Manu

* LFC wage spend/turnover/Gross + Net spend comparison with Man U and Arsenal.

It will be total wage spend per year though, not individual as individual salary details are condiential, and not in the public domain.

Jay Wright said...

it's quite amusing the way that revisionist history is applied so that Benitez only wanted to buy players that purchase bargain players that became successes elsewhere, whereas the expensive failures that he did succeed in bringing to Anfield were pretty much against his will...

From your examples anyway Gomez, Alves was an expensive right back that we didn't really need and probably wouldn't have seen his value rise so much in our team, Vidic chose Man U over us with us picking up Agger instead, Barry would've been a collosal waste of money for us (left wing!?) so that was a lucky escape tbh, and I don't remember anything about Benitez trying to purchase Rodwell

I agree with you though that Hodgson is in no position to critique anybody after his exploits in the last transfer window!

Paulie said...

Once again a good piece JK, although slightly marred by the 'In Rafa We Trust' brigade  :(

At the end of the day, it points out the bad management by the Owners since 90 who in turn sold out to G&H, bad management has cost us dearly and we have failed to capitalise on our success in the way Man Ure have with their success. We had a chance to set a blueprint for stability with Moores & Co, and they blew it. We now have a real chance to re-build and do things correctly. Hopefully Woy will spend wisely and the owners will back him all the way. Or alternatively, get a manager of the ilk of Frank Rijkaad, Claude Puel, Didier Dechamps or even Carlos Quirez, who will invest wisely whilst building up the acadamy and nurturing our crop of youngsters....

jesimps said...

You publish a list making no mention of managers and as usual all the pro-Benitez nutters immediately jump down your throat. It's happening all over the forums, not just this one. As soon as someone says something slightly derogatory about pre-Hodgson or complimentary about Hodgson, these idiots are up in arms.
I'm not a fan of Hodgso and didn't want him in the first place, but now he's here I think he should get the same shout as Benitez.
Being pro-Hodgson, or at least wanting to give him a chance is NOT being anti-Benitez and the same vice-versa.
The pro-Benitez crowd are becoming a big problem on the forums and are causing a discernable split in the support of this club.

Chong said...

Yes, Mr Henry, keep the star players but please allow at least 1 person to leave immediately - Roy Hodgson. Can't see him getting us the EPL title and Champions League.

Aguilani is one of the most illogical and non-sensical signing.  18m pounds for an injured player!

Chong said...

And when Aguilani has recovered, Mr Roy let him go at a time when we need to beef up the midfield. Baffling!

Jay Wright said...

right with you Torres9 - it does look like Pacheco has begun to stagnate and regress already due to spending too long with the reserves after he had already proved that he was ready to make the step up.  As we have also seen in the recent past with the likes Plessis, Nemeth, Insua & even Babel to a lesser extent (who for whatever reason has been treated as an academy player rather than a big money signing!)

Continuing with the tried, tested and failed options of the likes of Maxi, Kuyt, Carragher, Skrtel etc is doing no good for LFC in the short term as we are not producing positive performances or results, but it also bad for us in the long term as they are obviously never going to get any better than they are already, but also our youngsters are being held back from getting the necessary time on the pitch that they need to develop. 

In fact I'd say that it's even worse and that are talented youngsters just become lazy and actually regress after a while due to the lack of opportunity to progress in our squad!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I completely agree jesimps.  The Pro-Benitez Cult is a major problem, which is why I'm always on its case.  Like with you, Hodgson wasn't my first choice as manager (and neither was Benitez for that matter), but now he's here he should be supported.  The vitriol aimed Hodgson and his signings after only 4 months is just pathetic, and it's being driven by the Pro-Benitez Cult as you rightly observe. The best thing people can do to counter that is constantly challenge them with facts and reason.

Josek said...

Jamie I think you should just give up. I'm not suprised you stopped posting over the summer as sometimes I get dishartened when I see some of the rubbish the Rafa apologists will come up with - it beggars belief. I'm not happy with Roys performance myself, I think he has been very weak on certain issues and I would'nt cry if he was replaced by someone in the Guus Hiddink calibre. We need to move on from here. A top class - long term Manager is more important than any one signing of a player. Let the Rafa brigade continue to live in their dreamland that their RAfa is some sort of god. But he is never coming back- and we all need to move on - preferably united as fans of LFC. There is a certain brigade who will not rest until anything that Purslow was involved in is reversed and that's why Roy cannot succeed even if he won the title for us they will not be happy.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Spot on, Paulie.  Looking b ack over the last 20 years of history, it really is disturbing how badly the club was run.  David Moores is a nice guy, and it's without question that he probably had the best interests of the club at heart, but he is like a modern day Prospero  - he basically let it all go to sh1t, and the club is not paying the price.

Jer said...

What?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Don't you think Konchesky and Poulsen deserve a little longer than 9 league games before being condemned?

Rafael Nadal said...

<p>Don't you mention Joe Cole as a failure? How is that any different to mentioning Konchesky?
</p><p>Oh, cos you are not "Pro-Rafa" and therefore without any bias.
</p><p>I think you should get back to writing about facts rather than opinion, those articles were interesting rather than just baiting.
</p>

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Hey Irish Rover - I totally agree with you re Joe Cole (and I did mention that in the article) - absolute stunning waste of money; and it's clear that he only came here for the money, and he's played like it since her arrived too.

I agree that a few goals have come from the left but it's not really that simple.  Even is a cross goes in we should be able to cover it with our central defenders.  As a contrast, consider Glen Johnson, who is 8regularly* directly responsible for goals being scored against us.  Crosses might come in from Konchesky's side but I don't recall him being direcly responsible for a goal against yet.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Rafa's expensive signings has made Liverpool the force they were these past 5 yrs in Europe. Alonso, Garcia, Kuyt, Mascherano, FERNANDO TORRES, Aqualani, Johnson, Babel.

How exactly have the signings of Aquilani, Babel and Johnson made Liverpool a force in in Europe over the last 5 years?!

Aquilani barely played in Europe last season; we got knocked out early.  Johnson arrived and we had our worst season in decades, and got knocked out of the CL early.  And Babel? 

I respectfully suggest that you're not being entirely fair here.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Hi Andy -  Having seen Babb play live for Liverpool many times, I'm of the view that he was very similar to Glen Johnson, i.e. a defensive liability.  Liverpool finished4th/3rd under Evans in spite of him, not because.

Aquilani - this is an objective point: He has a history of injury.  He arrived at the club injured, and did not make his debut for three months, at which time Liverpool's season was already in the toilet.  He then got injured again and barely made an impact.

It's not his fault he was signed - that's down to the manager.  However, when assessing if someone is value for money you have to look at their specific, measurable, consistent impact on the team, and Aquilani had no impact.

Jay Wright said...

we could've been a lot more succesful if we implemented a quality over quantity policy MG01.  Man U spend a lot of money on players, but they also recoup a lot because they are investing in a higher calibre of player than we tend to go for.  For whatever reason, Liverpool have constantly decided to go after two or three average players that will need to be replaced after two or three years, rather than investing in a big player that will contribute at a high level for a number of years

In stark contrast, the last three big money transfers for a club in desperate need of wingers, and athleticism throughout the team have been a past it player with no real position, a creative central midfielder that was made a reserve for Lucas and has since been loaned out at no advantage to our own club, and an attacking right back...

Rafael Nadal said...

What did Cissé do to justify that price tag?
I think Bellamy was fine, he filled a hole and was then moved on for more than we paid. £6m might be a lot to you or I but it's not such a bad price for a reasonably talented proven-in-the-Prem striker.

aw said...

While that may be correct, I have MANY RESERVATIONS about Woy making such statements:

1. Alienating the players that are there, and from whom he needs at least until January to get a lot out of. Who is he calling an expensive failure? Not sure that is the way to go about building a dressing-room raport.
2. Self-congratulation: Sure, Woy, things weren't ideal. But now the owner's statements have been used to vindicate a guy who is, lets face it, out of his depth. Its a bit like when a kid runs to his mom and blames his brother/cousin whatever for stealing cookies, and then gloating when the other kids gets told off. It only emboldens Woy to feel satisfied with his own cr*p transfers, flog off aquilani with a moralising tut-tut, and wollow in his own cr*pness, believing that if the club get relegated he is blameless. NO YOU ARE NOT, YOU LOSER!!

Man, this makes me so mad (Not your post, Jamie, but Woy's statements). Anyway, appologies for the rant, but as bad as Rafa may supposedly have been, I just think that Woy is a sichophantic, disingeneous tittle-tattle. Big club comes calling 'cos couldn't afford a decent manager, and he is all too big for his boots.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Re Lucas - he is not a bad player, but he should be a squad player, not a first teamer.  What has Lucas ever done for LFC?  How has he enhanced the performance of the team?  He played 90% of the games last season and we had our worst season for decades.  This season, he's playing again regularly and we're in the relegation zone. 

Why should I do the same analysis for other teams?  I've already examined gross/net spending for 6 other teams in the premier league.  I'm not interested in who they signed individually; I'm interested in LFC.

And money recouped is irrelevant for the reasons I outline in the article.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Simao (another quality lost signing)

How do you know Simao would've been a quality signing for Liverpool?  We all thought that about Aquilani, Keane and Morientes, and look what happened.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Simao (another quality lost signing)

How do you know Simao would've been a quality signing for Liverpool?  We all thought that about Aquilani, Keane and Morientes, and look what happened.

comebackRAFA said...

Under H n G Rafa net spend was £21.5m.On top of this add the £100m he generated from CL success and add torres value my new formula is Rafa+benitez=GENIUS

John said...

Aquilani wasnt given a chance. I never thought Keane was a good signing, I thought Morientes ll be good because of his record, With Simao. I ll ask you the same question... How do we know Simao wouldnt be a good signing? I suppose we ll never know huh?

Gary said...

I completely agree with NESV's approach of spending wisely in the future, and I agree with Roy's sentiments but the way in which he has said is a bit odd. He doesn't differentiate between past mistakes and the current squad. He's basically saying that his squad includes expensive failures. What will that do for team morale? That is pretty poor man management. Can you imagine Arsene or Fergie coming out and saying that we've bought badly. NESV got it right; they have said that in future we are going to spend wisely. Roy has got it wrong again in a press conference.

Judging Roy has got nothing to do with being pro-Benitiez. Rafa was sacked because according to the anti-Rafa fans and the board he underachieved. According to journalists and pundits that team could win the league after finishing 2nd the season before and at a minimum finish in the top 4. The same team bar Mascherano, Yossi and Riera but plus Cole, Meireles and Poulson is now sat in 17th place. And somehow it's still Rafa's fault. He gets sacked for supposedly underachieving and now we are sat in 17th it's still his fault. How does that work! I thought the team he had was supposed to finish top 4 and that's why he was sacked. But now we are sat in 17th it's because Rafa had a rubbish team. So who's fault is it that we're in 17th. Roy Hodgson's. Its more or less the same team that was supposed to finish top 4 but underachieved. I'm sure he's a lovely man but we have been pi$$poor this season. Only against Blackburn did we show any sign of good football. Why didn't he play like that earlier? Why so negative in previous games? And what has happened to our defence. For years we had one of the best defences in the league. The personnel is still there but what's happened?  

Jay Wright said...

Cisse did more than everybody's favorite work horse, Dirk Kuyt!

John said...

No cos they have passed their peak... Konchesky is 29 and Poulsen is 30... Remember we used to have Alonso and Mascherano in this position.. Poulsen CAN NEVER be as good, you can give 100 years if you like.. What we are saying is It wasnt an upgrade to what we had... Same goes for Konchesky.. It is more of a downgrade.

aw said...

Jamie, I was on another blog site and I saw your name in the cloud. Clicked on it and saw a lot of vitriol against your site, going back for a couple of years. I was pretty shocked at some of it, I have to say. I have now spent some time reading many of your posts going back some years, and have to say that you have been consistent in your position. I don't always agree with your posts, but you are I think pursuing a brave and worthwhile project here - speaking a frank view view of the team that we all support. If nothing else, you have made me more reflective in my own views. Some people don't want to be challenged, so don't bother about them.

comebackRAFA said...

I will not rest until Rafa comes back.Always CL semifinal,final or winners,Fa cup win 2nd in prem only beaten twice all season,ranked no1 team in europe,basically had to raise his own transfer funds,tracked by Real for 3 years now with current CL winners.Except for 1 calendar year of success under GH all LFCs success over the past 20 years has been under Rafa.Rafa only signed 2 yr contract with Inter,at end of season it is definitely possible for the King to return.

Wartnick said...

However Paul and Christian do represent poor value - at their age they have no re-sale value at all - it is these types of players that NESV are talking about which of course means they evidentally dont trust Roy in the transfer market.  Who can blame them?

Roy is trying to blame his predecessor for the failings of the current team - a typical position to take up for anyone moving into that type of role - and is also trying to appear like he is agreeing with the owners ethos....I really dont know who the expensive flops are (in the current squad) that he is talking about - can anyone point to a single expensive flop in the current squad?

John said...

Exactly Rafa is ONLY one FACTOR for Liverpool's decline. The business model in itself is flaw. We are never the pacesetter in terms of transfer fee.. The last time we had a british record signing i think was Collymore, Before that was johnny Barnes i think. Chelsea and Man U are consistently breaking the transfer record, We cant compete with the big boys regardless of the manager. To think Jose Mourinho or Sir Ferguson ll have won the title with that budget is laughable

Jay Wright said...

give as much credit for our CL success to UEFA as to Benitez - the simple fact is that he was rewarded for underachievement in a way that Evans never was, and Houllier only in his final years.

We were a consistent Top 4 team before Benitez and remained in that position under him - the only difference was that the significant swing in the financial landscape towards the Premiership, and the additional CL places allowed Liverpool and the English clubs to elevate themselves above the European counterparts,,,

John said...

Agreed Aquilani, Keane were bad buys... I dont believe this is what was responsible for our decline over the past 20 yrs...

Polo said...

I challange you to write a positive article pertaining to liverpool fc. something that will life the spirits and for once unify the opinion of fans.

maybe the fact that torres has found his shooting boots again?
maybe a debate about when the hard working meireles will finally get off the mark
possible transfer targets fans would like to see for january?
possible starting line up vs bolton?

just a thought

John said...

Collectively. You are focusing on ONE DATA POINT. The man listed several players you picked on Aquilani... 

The likes of Alonso, Mascharano, Garcia, Kuyt, Torres, Albeola, Bellamy, Aurellio have done reasonably well.

Chesco said...

Yes the Rafa brigade is angry & rightly so. We let go one of the top 5 managers in club football go to be replaced with some one who any of the elite teams in Europe wouldn't even consider (& Rafa was signed by the European Champs...why would they sign him to replace another top manager if he didn't already have the credentials)!! Even when Rafa's teams weren't firing on all cylinders we still looked hard for anyone to beat. I don't blindly agree with everything Rafa did but his track record speaks volumes. In Liverpool's incredible 108 year history he has guided them to the most points the club has achieved, losing 2 games all season. Not to mention to 2 trips in 3 years to the World's most glorified club competion. So to be replaced by someone who has never qualified for a Champions League & is 60 plus yrs old is baffling. Even the ppl who didn't want Roy in the first place (like myself) were behind him at the beginning cuz like all supporters we want our club to do well. But what we already knew is becoming all too clear. And vitriol aimed at Hodgson & his signings after 4 months is not pathetic, its the truth! Hodgson & Konchesky are not new to the EPL & Poulsen has 70 plus caps as Hodgson says, so i feel its justified. Just compare this time last season under Rafa (which i thought couldnt get any worse for a great club such as Liverpool) to now under Roy then you'll understand the frustration of the ppl who believed in Rafa. Its not even so much the fact were losing games cuz everyone knew the situation surrounding the club, its the manner in how we play & the signings he's made & players he let out on loan is making things worst!! Of course all Pool supporters would be happy if Roy won the EPL or ANY trophy but even if you have 20/20 vision you can't see it happening under Roy, can you!?

comebackRAFA said...

Under GH LFC got into 4th place on last game of season.Rafa took over a substandard side brought in Alonso and Garcia and with Rafas tactical superiority and organisation achieved the impossible.He then carried on achieving the impossible every year.Who can forget beating R.Madrid 5-0 and Man u 4-1 at OT in the same week.

yogi said...

Really Oaky I don't know what I'm talking about. So why back my point up over Poulsen? Why not accept that Konchesky is an average full back no where near an average England team? Please tell why Joe Cole deserves a place in the team on his current form? And tell me what Merieles contributes to the team? I don't see anything in him that says when a game needs a leader to step up that he can do it. Against Everton he played like a Fulham player, he went backwards, sidewards and NEVER tried to do something like Alonso did.

Chesco said...

And Rafa IS some kind of God to Liverpool supporters! Thats why his face is on that big flag with all the other GREAT & GODLY Liverpool managers. And as much as i wish for the sake of LFC, that Roy can be there too, a very high majority knows this is all wishful thinking. And this is the first time in my 20 yrs of supporting LFC that i have been so negative & uninspired towards any of our own

RPP-L said...

Jamie,

I appreciate this article is not about Rafa and neither is it about Roy but I am interested in your opionion of another subject.

Do you personally think that Roy is the right man to manage Liverpool to more successful times?

Thanks,

RPP-L

Chesco said...

Hope Roy's gone by Monday & we can get a manager with European credentials

Jason said...

where did my post go? Did you delete it

Mr RP said...

<span>Jaimie, when will you apologise to SOS for your attack on them about NESV avoiding them only for you be proven wrong?</span>

Also, you got the Jovanovic quotes from the S*N

yogi said...

Jamie, maybe you don't watch football outside of Liverpool FC, but I do and I had huge misgivings about Poulsen and Konchesky before we ever signed them and 4 months or not if you can't spot a player who's not Liverpool quality after 6 games then it's game over. Konchesky is nowhere near an average England squad, which Johnson (defensively suspect that he is) walks into and Carra (on the decline) made in the summer so I think Capello who is a better judge of a player than you or I am agrees with me there. Poulsen is so bad people were calling for Lucas in the Blackpool game so don't give me the four months arguement he just isn't good enough. Joe Cole may come good but he could well be on the slide only time will tell. And as for our Portugese so callled playmaker WHAT does he do? He looks like a jack of all trades and master of none. He doesn't tackle that well, he doesn't score that many, he doesn't pass like Alonso, his display in the derby was awful in his relucantance to try something when he had plenty of the ball at 0-2. At least Gerrard tried something, but Meireles didn't have the imagination to do something. When Alonso was here, regardless of form he would have tried to create not giving short nothing balls. I was talking to an ex pro on Tuesday and he said to me what does Meireles give you? He was shocked we paid 11 Million and he's right. Stop slating the signings by who bought them and judge them on how they play. So if you look at the current team only Reina, and to a lesser extent Gerrard are free of criticism so Rafa's signings deserve criticism. What is unforgiveable is slating players before we've seen them like you did with Aqualini last year.

comebackRAFA said...

Difference being manutd had a massive squad of strength in depth,they could add the odd £28m player every season.Rafa had to build his squad by selling to buy then maybe add 3 players to increase the depth of the squad instead of buying the finished article.

Jason said...

I will forgive the fact you only picked on a few words of my email as we have estbalished lazy journalism.

As with any signing there is no gurantee of success but you want to be buying what are considered top pedigree players. I would put Alves and Simao in this bracket.

Success is just a game of probability, nothing more but if you associate yuor team with more top pedigree players there is a higher chance of success.

This is what Liverpool have not been  ableto do on a consistent basis due to money constraints. Before you jump on this sentence, make sure you pick up on the fact I acknowlege there are times we have had acess to top quality players.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No, I picked out THREE players John, not one.  You cannot include Aquilani, Babel and Johnson in a point about Liverpool's European pedigree over the last 5 years (!).

Jason said...

Don't you think Cole does as well?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

If you had a fair bone in your body you would see I have done that countless times, most recently here:
Liverpool FC in the relegation zone? Big deal. It means absolutely nothing<span>

Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/10/liverpool-fc-in-relegation-zone-big.html#ixzz13lcVjpR8</span>


Sorry, but still I’m not jumping on the Liverpool FC 'apocalypse' bandwagon<span>

Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/10/sorry-but-still-im-not-jumping-on.html#ixzz13lcPoqZY</span>
The future is BRIGHT for Liverpool FC. Ignore the 'Doom and Gloom' agenda<span>

Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/06/future-is-bright-for-liverpool-fc.html#ixzz13lcGwYbc</span>


I don't do transfer speculation; every site does that.  I also don't do posts about possible starting line-ups; again, there are a millions sites doing the same thing.  If you want that, fo to one of them.

But don't post nonsense about me not writing positive stuff when the opposite is true.

Torres9 said...

But Jaimie says this isn't about Rafa!

Mike said...

Well another article about finance.  Where's the passion fella?  You are so wrapped up in figures I'm guessing you don't go and sit on the kop very often.  You just seem intent on saying how badly run we are as a club and you never have anything positive to say.  It's just figures, figures and more figures - usually to prove your nemisis Rafa was just so evil he may well be Maggie Thatcher in disguise.

I don't suppose this comment will last long, but I do recommend you visit the ground on match day.  Get behind the team, support the players and for ONCE, just forget about the figures.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

And Rafa IS some kind of God to Liverpool supporters<span></span>
No - he is a God to a deluded, fanatical and ignorant cult of supporters, in much the same way David Koresh and Adolf Hitler were 'Gods'

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Mike - if you don't like the content of this site then don't come here.  Simple :-)

Gary said...

Isn't this comment contrary to the comments policy of the site :) . Are you going to ban yourself?

John said...

Mesherano was a WEST HAM flop. But he was GREAT for Liverpool... So we do not know if Simao ll be good, but the likelihood is very high !!! Glen Johnson was sent packing at Chelsea, Pannant was sent packing at Arsenal, Nunez is part of the Owen deal, most of the player you have blamed Rafa for are not exactly the Essien, Drogba, Rooney, Valencia of this world... Liverpool havent not been able to shop at harrods, Our budget is Tesco...

Torres9 said...

Also we have a history of being top 4 with Rafa, even with H&G. I'm not anti Roy, I'm just anti relegation place. I'm happy to give Roy a chance, just he needs to buck up and buck up quick. And actually most people are blaming Rafa for everything which borderlines on stupidity, considering he was the one that got us playing regularly with the big boys in the CL and dreaming of a league title. I love the way you just quickly skirt over his success when he has been our greatest manager since King Kenny. I'm not saying he was perfect, but give the man his dues, for two season at least we competed with Man U/Chelsea in the league, apart from last season and 2005 (when we won that small trophy) regularly in the top four , FA Cup win. The haul isn't what we all dreamed off, but it wasn't that bad. Could we have won more, yes, even with his poor signings we could have won the league. Here is were I criticise Rafa, as too often his tactics were negative and set up to stop the opposition instead of going for it especially at home. He was too worried about the tactical nuances of Steve Bruce or Alex McKleash and often did not change the game often enough to go for a win. Imagine if we had beaten Stoke, West Ham and Fulham we would've won the league. So it's not even the signings, it was his overly stubborn attitude, lack of attacking drive that was his downfall. When he did unleash his poor squad we beat the likes of Real and Man U. Just wish he had done this more often. And a lot of pundits say different things, if you talk to Guillem Balague, Marcotti, Paul Tomkins, Graham Hunter they would sya different things.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Ah, but you see this is an attack on a group, rather than in individual.  The comment policy focuses on individuals 8-)

Anyway, anyone who believes that a football is actually a God is deserving of ridiculous, and then they should be locked up in a padded cell.

Torres9 said...

*Comment aimed at Jer.

neil said...

Just once i'd like you to do an optimistic story regarding the club rather than negative shit to get up peoples noses and invite comment!

John said...

I dont think Rafa is God at all, He bought some very bad players, Zonal marking get on my nerves, Alonso leaving was rather sad, I dont believe he had the best man management skill, But HE IS A GREAT TACTICIAL.. Jose Mourinho lost his Chelsea job because he couldnt land the Champions league, Rafa knocked him out twice in this competition, Man U and Everton were well beaten by Rafa, so was Inter, Madrid, Barca, AC Milan...Under Rafa we have beaten some of the best names in football...

The owners Moore should have sold to DIC, but sold to the highest bidder H+G, As you have mentioned, While we spent a lot of money, we didnt buy the best, we never got the Alves, Tevez, Simao, vidic, Eto, we were buying the Reira, Pennant, Albeola, Aurellio, Benayoun, Garcia etc.. Ofcourse these are not the high end names in football, You are argue that this is all Rafa's fault, but common sense tells me if I have the money for Eto why go for a Voronin? If I can get Valencia or Milner why go for Reira? If I can buy Essien why buy a Lucas? for me I think it is simply because we do not have the money... Rafa tried to work within his budget, obviously he isnt Arsene Wenger, some worked well, some are just BAD... We all agree that Rafa must be accountable, but the owners, board and the senior management are as bad if not worse... Mind you RAFA WAS REWARDED WITH A 5 YR CONTRACT LAST YR. HE CANT BE THAT BAD

John said...

Rafa has ONE THING most people do not give him respect for.

HE WON THE LA LIGA 2 TIMES DESPITE SUPERIOR FINANCES OF BARCA AND MADRID. NOT EVEN JOSE MOURINHO WAS CAPABLE OF DOING THAT.


JOSE SPENT THE MOST AT PORTO, CHELSEA, INTER (winning with an enchancement of 90M euros to win the CL)
Now at Madrid, They have the most expensive squad known to mankind.

Torres9 said...

Oaky I totally respect your views.They seem very reasonable.

I am a Benitez fan, but I thought he was carrying too much baggage. The rumours of dressing room unrest (rumours not fact), the problems with Purslow and the owners, 7th place, the doom and gloom which rightly or wrongly was tied in with Rafa, the media witchhunt and so on. Thought it was time for him to go. Maybe if he had won the Uefa Cup or got us 4th, with new owners I thought he should've stayed. But this did not happen, so the time was right for him to leave. Roy I thought was here because he knew how to work with a squad. I accepted him because I thought he would be here for a season, steady the ship and hand the reins over to a bigger name. Hopefully, Woy can turn it around so I'll support him, but his bewildered grandad act in the media is not helping. Plus Poulsen and Konchesky...really??? Konchesky I will only just let slide as we were desperate for a LB, but Poulsen's ability was eroding even whilst playing for Seville. Surely there was better out there, Annan, Diarra (either of them from Real) Sissoko from Toulouse...anyone at least younger and more mobile. How about using Spearing? At least youth is on his side and passion. Without that he is still a better player.

But Oaky I gotta say your comments are well balanced and fair. Well done!

John said...

Alves, Sevilla wanted £12M Barca paid £17M. I dont know about Gomez, I agree Barry ll have been a wate of money, Vidic chose ManU as negotiating was stall with Liverpool and Man U offered more money... You are sit and watch forever, We should have signed him instead of wasting time. Rafa wanted Walcott but we couldnt pay the £5M. Infact Walcott is a LIVERPOOL FAN and has a picture of him with MICKY OWEN in his room.. Why didnt we get him?

comebackRAFA said...

Rafa got stick off the press for Keane fiasco,this wasnt Rafas fault.Rafa went to Parry and said he wanted Barry and Keane.Parry spends all the money on Keane,Rafa said this is no good because he wanted to play a 3 man midfield with Barry on the left, Masch centre,gerrard on right of the 3.kuyt would be deployed on the righ coming in to join torres as and when with Keane doing likewise on the left.No Barry meant going back to 2 holding midfielders and there was no place for Keane.Not RAFAs fault.On Aquillani,on independent medical advice LFC signed him,not RAFAs fault. 

Torres9 said...

Very harsh on Kuyt! I'm not Kuyt's biggest fan, he's severely limited, but functional. But he has had a much larger impact for Liverpool than Cisse. Or do you forget all thos vital CL goals, even 1 in the final of 2007. Not to mention all his Derby goals against the bluenoses. Kuyt and Torres give the Toffees nightmares.

John said...

Barcelona striker Samuel Eto'o has admitted it would be 'wonderful' to play for Liverpool in front of the Kop as speculation about his future gathers pace.  <span>-2007. </span>

Torres9 said...

For once you make a good point...got there eventually ;)

Torres9 said...

For once Jaimi you make a good point... you got there eventually ;)

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Rafa went to Parry and said he wanted Barry and Keane.Parry spends all the money on Keane,Rafa said this is no good because he wanted to play a 3 man midfield with Barry on the left, Masch centre,gerrard on right of the 3.kuyt would be deployed on the righ coming in to join torres as and when with Keane doing likewise on the left

Wow - it must have been great to be in the meeting with Benitez and Parry when this conversation was going on.  What were you doing there?  Taking notes?  Bringing the coffee? Or are you actually David Moores?

You say all that is if you know it's a fact.  It is NOT. 

On Aquillani,on independent medical advice LFC signed him,not RAFAs fault.

You clearly believe anything you read on Liverpool message boards, even if it has no foundaion in fact. Unfortunately, you are clearly a member of the Pro Benitez Cult.  Typical rehtoeric: Benitez is god; he never did anything wrong; every signing except the successful ones were someone else's fault etc etc.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

It was a long hard trek across the wilderness but I got there in the end...

matt said...

could it be that the last 4 managers had to go through parry to sign players. just a thought. that seems to be the only constant at the club over the time period

matt said...

one simple question, do you think rafa was a bad manager and if so, why

The Roy Hodgson Brigade said...

I am still here and will be for the next six season :-D  or maybe only till the end of the season so get usded to it. Rafa is gone now move on.

yogi said...

Mr Yogi you just proved you dont know what your talking about because my argument and your argument are totally different. Your calling these players flops by assessing how they have played over the past four months, where my issue is with the price paid for these players and the age of these players.  I am not a benetiz fan so I am not single minded with my views.

I believe Jamie kanwar hates Benetiz so much that he is single minded against benetiz and thats why both you clash.

oaky said...

Well Torress my argument isnt about rafa either all I am saying Hodgsons the one saying this when his dealings in transfer market are suspect as well.

Duncan said...

Not a well thought out argument.

1. Some of the players listed were good signings.
2. A top class player signed by a top premiership club can expect to cost upwards of £20M. Some of these players were signed on a speculative basis for a small amount of money.
3. These figures take no account of transfer fee inflation, e.g. £4.2M for Ince cost more in real terms than £6M for Lucas Leiva.
4. These are the fees paid to bring the player to the club, they don't take into account the number of useful years playing for the team and the amount recouped when the player was sold on. Surely Liverpool wasted about £6M on Robbie Keane, not £20M?
5. I have no idea how Ince, Johnson, Leiva can be considered a waste of money.
6. Managers can't play fantasy football with real teams. They can only buy what is available.

Duncan said...

Roy'll probably have a heart attack before the end of the reason.

Shouldn't he be playing bowls at his age?

Mike said...

I think it's a little unfair to claim this site is objective but at the same time refer to anyone who thinks Rafa Benitez is a good manager as a member of a 'cult.'  I think personally, that it is very insulting.  If you had/have visited anfield you would know that Rafa is still held in high regard.  I guess a large proportion of the fans then are now tagged with your derisory reference to them belonging to a 'cult.'  Classy.

GF said...

However......

Give most of those flops to Wenger and see how much better they would have been. Our recent managers have been lacking in the ability to integrate players the way they do at the Arse....nal.

GF said...

Bowls requires tactics!

Matthew said...

To be fair mate, you are talking nonsense.  If that was true, why did Rafa finish higher than Wenger half the time AND knock them out of the champs lge?

And when was the last time Arsenal won a trophy?

Fan said...

It is fact, I've heard it direct from the mouth of Rick Parry himself.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No you haven't, because he never said it. Where's the proof?
Sent from iPhone
On 29 Oct 2010, at 22:16, "Echo" <js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irkhk7cdci10cj37qsbo49bq0vli8j79818lk7564g> wrote:
</js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irkhk7cdci10cj37qsbo49bq0vli8j79818lk7564g>

Putnici said...

Wekk Roy got himself off to a good start then? Konchesky and Poulsen! then sells Aquilani!!!

Brad Joy-Clavis said...

Exactly.  You can find all that stuff on a hundred other websites.  Jaimie has a very specific goal with this site and while I don't share all of his opinions, I am glad that he puts them out there for consideration.

Nothing improves is everyone wants to bury their heads in the sand and convince themselves that there is nothing wrong.  We've had a good twenty years of that attitude.  If you can't handle some negativity, just don't read it.  I for one like to have a balance of opinion so that I can more accurately make my own.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Cole is a mercenary, and is symobolic of the failure of the so-called England 'golden genreation': Overpaid, underperforming primadonnas drunk on their own hype. Konchesky and Poulsen are good honest Pros.  They may not be long-term first team material but they are definitely good enough to be squad players, which is whay they were brought in (IMO).  Hodgson hasn't had the cash to buy the players he wants in those positions, but as soon as he does, they will both become squad players. As I've argued countless times, people need to take a long-term view.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

As I've argued in other recent articles, Hodgson is a transitional manager.  His job is/was to guide the club through the takeover and boardroom problems that have plagued the club recently.  He has one goal this season: 4th place. That is all that matters, and it doesn't matter how it is achieved. Hodgson was never a long-term appointment, so the question of whether he is the right man to bring success back to Liverpool is kind of irrelevant.  He won't be here long enough to be given the chance.

Hodgson will be gone in the summer (or if things go bad, a little sooner), even if we qualify for the CL.  Then the club will ge the manager who will have the chance - and the backing - to bring the good times back.

The players know all this too, which is why we've had such a crap start.  They're not motivated to work hard because they know Hodgson is a short term appointment.  It's totally unprofessional of some of them but that's the way it goes.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

When hell freezes over, then defrosts, the freezes over again.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

One simple answer: click the 'benitez' link in the category cloud on the right side of the page.  All my views on Benitez are there.

badger said...

You would be better off comparing wage bills. The team with the highest will usually win the league. This would show Tevez as costing nothing to Man U, yet he cost 10m in wages.
Not quite sure what you're hoping to acheive with this list.

niall said...

correct me if im wrong but didnt united spend heavily in the barren years i.e the period before fergie won anything just to catch liverpool.
not only did united break every record going on players but he already had a crop of world class kids that have been the back bone of his success, so yes his transfer record is less than impressive considering over 23 years he has made more poor decisions than astute ones but as you mention the success papers over the cracks. arsenal only won trophies when united were in transition but have failed to do anything of note for quite some time now. i do agree we have made awfull appointments in every aspect of the club butt your sensationalist article although factually true only shows a small slice of the over all picture. NESV never castigated the previous expenditure they merely highlighted they would spend wisely, Roy however seemed to indicate previous transfer policy was all wrong yet as has been mentioned all of his purchases are dubious to say the least .. so far anyway.

niall said...

you often say you work on facts, so explain to me how you know
a) roy is a transitional manager and will be gone no matter what come the summer
and
b) what is going on in the players mind.

personally i think the fact we defend inside our 18 yrd line, changed our defensive tactics, dont pressure opposing teams in their half or look to have any game plan other than to lump the ball into space and chase it down has more to do with the crap performances than any fictional interpretation of the players mindset.

BLA BLA BLA said...

the fact is everyone makes mistakes. the fact is roy makes more mistakes than most of our managers save sounnes n roy evans!

nick said...

Well It's not Hodgons fault really, he was limited to picking out the crumbs at the bottom of the packet. Why? He didn't have enough money to spend for the top quality players

Flashfox said...

Wow Jamie, over the last few months I've kept my mouth quite, but how about. reply mate, from a so called "Liverpool supporter".

Flashfox said...

Hey  Jamie, ever thought about leaving comments that were pro-active rather than just leaving comments that just leave you as anti benitez?

Gary said...

You forget a few important words there JK. The manager is responsible for identfying and signing players but within the budget the board has allowed. Lets say for example the board says that our manager has £10m to spend and lets say our team needs a fullback and a winger. It doesn't give you much to play with does it. Now if they gave £20m to buy those two players you would identify and sign better players. I'm not excusing some of our signings, some have been terrible, but you can only work within the budget provided per season.  

Brian said...

hey.. lay off the hutch!
Liverpool legend!

daboy said...

I think when you include Kewell it is a little harsh he seemed like a bargain no one could foresee the run of various injuries he would incur.

fraggs said...

JK has his blinkers on, it's impossible to get him to see the logic. I don't think there is any chance he'll engage in a sensible discussion about this, he's totally dismissed the idea and has no interest in hearing other points of view.

How about this one: we sell Torres for £60 million. That's significantly less than the £80 + million Ronaldo was sold for. A completely realistic scenario, especially if we are to follow the example of the best manager in the game. Now Roy is then only given £50 million of that money to spend. JKs position is that Roy has been given £50 of transfer funds and yet to ignore the fact that we have lost the best striker in the world would be idiotic. If Roy was to in any way complain that he didn't get enough funds for new players JK would unquestionably attack him, dismissing it as a pathetic excuse. 

fraggs said...

Hang on, "we" thought they were going to be good signings? Including yourself in that are you?

fraggs said...

The double standard is stunning. Joe Cole is written off but Konchesky deserves more than 9 games. They are both players with plenty of Premier League experience, one of them rated a somewhat capable player with Fulham and the other a regular starter before his injury for one the best teams around. In what realm of logic does Konchesky deserve our patience when Joe Cole is already "condemned" as a money-chasing waste?

fraggs said...

Are people not allowed to have the opinion that Rafa was a good manager? It's disturbing how you seem to think that what you write is balanced and sensible while those who actually begin to defend Benitez's record are dismissed as a ranting cult. You frequently assume motives behind what people post here that simply don't exist, it's quite obvious that you just assign pre-conceived ideas to others who don't instantly agree with you. That's incredibly disrespectful and childish. You're not interested at all in discussion, you're interested in nothing more than getting your own view point heard. I can only guess that your ego is in overdrive, your inability to see other people's view points is staggering. 

fraggs said...

Gary's being light hearted about it but he's right and the double standards are a bit sad. If there is no individual here to have earned such ridicule then why are you making that kind of post? It's pointless and insulting. You're building yourself a little bubble here purely for your own ego gratification which is entirely your right to do but it is a little pathetic. 

fraggs said...

Plenty of quotes where Rafa himself says just that. Of course you think Rafa is a liar and manipulates the press to bolster his own ego so that's easily dismissed. In your odd little world it's reasonable to believe that your opinion is much more valid that the spoken word of a top flight manager. Can you not even see a problem with that point of view?

daboy said...

Roys signings so far have been awful not a top class one among them betcha they didn't come cheap wage wise.
I agree Roy probably needs more time, but he does not appeal to me as a man who will develop young talent or attract better young players from abroad ala Wenger.
At present Roy needs to take a long hard look at himself because Rafa is gone and people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!!

alan said...

and the same goes for rafa,  he had to sign in the bargain basement most of the time, he made a profit on a lot of his players, and in my opinion, signing someone like morientes although it didn't turn out that way seemed like a shrewd piece of business, he has been prolific at all his other clubs, just unfortunately for us not at liverpool, even when he moved on he played well for valencia

Jim, Sweden said...

Seriously? I used to read quite a bit from your articles Jamie but this is just horeshit.
You can't just write what all the players cost us at the time? What about Keane when we sold him back for 17m? I also believe we made a decent profit on Gonzales. Nunez was free he came in for the Owen-Garcia deal as makeweight. And Aqualani isnt 20m lost, HE IS STILL OUR PLAYER AS IS BABEL, JOHNSON and LUCAS.. They will all at some point give us some money back.

Jim, Sweden said...

Seriously? I used to read quite a bit from your articles Jamie but this is just horeshit.
You can't just write what all the players cost us at the time? What about Keane when we sold him back for 17m? I also believe we made a decent profit on Gonzales. Nunez was free he came in for the Owen-Garcia deal as makeweight. And Aqualani isnt 20m lost, HE IS STILL OUR PLAYER AS IS BABEL, JOHNSON and LUCAS.. They will all at some point give us some money back.

oaky said...

Fraggs you are soo soo of the mark there, firstly 50 million to spend is alot of money and can be used to buy two strickers (so what if the club save 10 million) what  is more important the club runs and exists or fans like you are happy that every penny is spent even if its on players not good enough.

And secondly if a scenario like the one you suggested did happen and Roy did complain about the funds as he is a british manager JR would stick my by his side and argue for him. Rafa and Houllier were foreign managers and had to go because they were not british.

oaky said...

Interesting JR Poulsens crap performances can be overlooked because like you mentioned as a reply earlier all the team are playing crap so its not fair to label poulsen as a flop. But it is easy to point the finger at lucas. Like alot of fans it is easy to pick on players such as lucas and kuyt when things are not going well but to fair every team needs a lucas and a kuyt even as squad players.

Anyway I am not here to talk about kuyt thats a different argument for a different day. Regarding Lucas, the whole argument last year (correct me if I am wrong) was lucas and mascherano cannot play in the same team two defensive midfielders. Last year mascherano played 90 percent of the games as well.

And this season we have looked better when we have had lucas in the middle of the park rather then poulsen. Dont get me wrong I do not think Lucas is quite there yet but I think with time he can master the mascherano position for liverpool.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve by asking what I'm trying to achieve.  It's obvious. If you czan't see that then you need to open your mind a little.  And you're wrong: the team with highest wage bill does NOT always win the league.  I will prove this next week when I publish a wage comparison between Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, SPurs etc.  That is such a lme myth that people use.  One recent example that disproves that: Man U waon the league 3 times in a row, but Chelsea has a higher wage bill.

Growler said...

Agree with the concept. However, the strategy is nothing new really.  Football as a whole 'waste' money on players that get shipped out either at a loss or profit.  Its the way of the game and not unique to us.  funguson wasted a fair bit too trying to replace a keeper, signing Owen and experimenting with Veron for example.

What it may be worth you looking at is the kids.  How much of Rafa's spending was on youth? he seemed to buy and focus a lot on the kids from his first summer (Barragan, was it anderson the winger?) through to just before he left (Wilson and Shelvey). Many left for a profit, and others are creating one of the best crop of players for us in a long time.

Ironically, when Roy came in, he raised the average age and poor signings by konchesky, Poulson and Jones for 10million.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Niall - where in my post did I say I was talking about facts?  Do I hav to put (IMO) after every sentence?  This is clearly my opinion.  Having said that, it is opinion based on things I have heard from my sources at the club.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Fraggs - don't presume to know what I would think about a give situation. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I have not engaged in sensible discussion.  I have - I have explained my reason but you just can't habdle the fact that I won't come round to your way of thinking, which is why you've gone on your little furstrated mini-rant.

Get over it.  You have your view, I have mine.

oaky said...

As Liverpool fans why do we go throgh the extremes. If one thinks its left the other thinks its right. Why cant we come down the middle for once all of us.
Jr does make some good points but his views are extreme and to one sided just like rafa fans thier views are one sided.
But to be fair Jr did get it terribley wrong siding with H & G which he will not admit and also like the rest of the media he will blindly carrying on supporting Hodgson no matter how much he fails.

The trouble I am getting now is that when I pick out points about Hodgson I am accused of being a rafa fan. But these same people forget that when rafa was incharge I used to pick out points over him as well. But to be fair Hodgson seems to be doing more wrong then rafa.

I am also in a position where I dont want to argue as I have doubts myself that I am wrong when I speak about Hodgson and Rafa (as I was one of the people calling for rafas head).

Alan Breen said...

So Jaimie, now that John W. Henry has met with SOS and answered questions posed by supporters over at RAWK. Like to hear your opinions on the situation.

oaky said...

emmm... babel, aquilani (still on our books), jhonsen

Jaimie Kanwar said...

It's a figure of speech, Fraggs.  Your pedantry is really showing up today.  By ''we', I mean the fans - at the time it seemed like many fans thought those players would be good signings. I thought Morientes was, but not the other two, as I've written on the site at the time of their purchases.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I've explained that elsewhere on this thread, and in an article at the time.  There is a major difference between Cole and Konchesky.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Fraggs - if you persist on completely twisting the point then I'll just ignore your posts from now on.  Where did I say that people are not allowed to have the opinion that Benitez was a good manager?  You deliberately refuse to see the point, i..e that we are referring to a very specific subset of fans, i.e. those (like comebackRafa on this thread) who actually genuienly believe that Benitez was like a God.  ComebackRafa said that on this thread; he also sai he's counting the days until Benitez's return.  This is what I mean by 'Pro Benitez Cult'.  It is totally clear that I am not referring to every Benitez fan.

And if you continue to include derogatory remarks about me in your posts (I edited them out), I will just delete your posts from now on.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Plenty of quotes? Post some, don't just say it.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

 What about Keane when we sold him back for 17m?
Keane was sold for 12m, not 17m.
I also believe we made a decent profit on Gonzales. Why is this relevant?

Nunez was free he came in for the Owen-Garcia deal as makeweight.
No, Nunez was not a makeweight - Liverpool paid money for him.

And Aqualani isnt 20m lost, HE IS STILL OUR PLAYER AS IS BABEL, JOHNSON and LUCAS. They will all at some point give us some money back
It's not about money back - they're a waste of money because they have not made any positive impact on the club.
The proof for the Keane/Nunez points is in this article:http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/10/debunking-liverpool-fc-myths-no-8-top.html

pesmoman said...

if liverpool had won the league 20 times over the last 20 years no one would have give a monkeys how much they had spent chelsea have spent 750 mill in about eight years and city 500 mill in two years so lets see how much more the two of them spend in say the next ten years ?

pesmoman said...

how much have chelsea and city spent in the last five years between them 1.2 billion pound net and chelsea have won the league 3 times city have won nowt if lfc had won the league the last 20 on the trot no one would have give a monkeys how much they spent

steve pike said...

The list speaks for itself.  Are you sure you want to give  Roy the money to spend? With the £20M he's had already he's blown 

AussieRed said...

Rafa also wanted to sign Cristiano Ronaldo when he was at Sporting Lisbon, he was valued at 12mil, the board only gave him 10 and wouldn't fork out the other 2, so we let him get away. We were also in negotiations to sign Dimitar Berbatov back when he was at Bayer Leverkusen, but again, the board wouldn't pay up. I believe one of the worst managers for us as far as transfers go is Houllier, a lot of his signings were atrocious.

tjmreds said...

Agree with the vast mojority of the list, however it's too early to rule out Joe Cole, he has the potential to offer us a lot (i know you'll disagree with me on this!)

check the meaning said...

Intersting stuff you write Jamie, you always write stuff against the "Grain" that "us" the Liverpool supporters are not use to.
I would be very interested to see you write an article about the word "SUPPORTER"  & "you'll never walk alone"and what it means you.

albey said...

The club lost its foundations the day that the last of the three people who built liverpool football club up to the standards of excellence went and that was  Joe Fagan the other two were shankly and paisley who started it. shankly built a team which took several years to build then when we won the football league he added top class young players to the club intergrating them through the reserves to learn the liverpool way of playing then when he stepped down paisley continued with the same process which evently made us in to the world renowned trophy ladened football club we became . Then Kenny came as manger and this weather you like it or not is were the breaking of the formula which had been so successful over the years started to break down buying players and putting them straight in to the first team yes we won championships and cups but the mould had been broken then souness he did the same then evans he did the same which surprised me as he was apart of the three who started this then houlier he brought in lots of players and put them in the first team we won cups on a regular basis but the slide away from being champions grew wider and wider by the years we were close one or two times but we just never had the capacity to take the final take that last step to glory and it was not for the lack of transfer funds then we got rafa who i was not a big fan off untill after he had gone (explain later) he started to return to buying players and putting them in the reserves the problam was they were not up to the standards of liverpool football club . Explanation bout rafa until recently i was happy that rafa had gone but until  I recently  read a blog on how much he actualy spent in the 6 years he managed us and again weather you like it or not you have to balance the books and the bought and sold colums dont lie so when you actualy read these figures he spent 26 million pound but returning back to the article yes we did buy rubbish yes we did waste millions and yes we did forsake the tried and tested liverpool way . But now we have the chance to return to the old ways yes we have to buy first team players to build the team back up to challenge for the league but we also have the opertunitys to buy good young pros from clubs and re educate them in the way we play at liverpool then release them on to the big stage this way all benefit the club the supporters and most of all the players ask terry mac , ray kennedy, kevin keagan , alan hansen , phil thompson ,cally , tommy smith , ect.

longchalk said...

I fear for our club more now than last season

we shud be comming through a watershed however Im posting this here first and then later on a few other  'mature' arenas

fickle
premature
 these are just 2 words that can sum up a large no. of our fans so far this season
shame on u all.
booing for a period at the final whistle aftrer u have paid for the disspleasure of another shamefull effort is your perogative.
however berrating,premature anhiliation of palyrers,manager staff etc,, is and allways will be not in the best interests of the club and in my opinion shamefull.

Its a bad start yet its a marathon not a sprint
im not going to churn out more cliches or use emotion to try and reason with the knockers

the new set up needs time and the end of this year marker sounds logical to me.
within a few wins of the top four is where we need to be at end december - anything less and its time for a think.

.....


on another subject raised here ie compassrison of man utds spend/achivments
domestically no problem -  however in europe an alltogetrher different story:
allow me to expalin :

2 x cl in 2 decades !
thats what it is pretty much - doubt they will land another this season

in any Top place in europe that wud not be acceptable yet here in england no one ever takes issue with it.
next doors cat could win 2 euro cups in all that time with all that £
fergy is a myth in europe
he is tactically niave
his recored in the competion speaks for itself,hes even addmited himself he shud have won more. with a better 'euro' boss I belive they could have won more.
In fact im supprised sitting here all these years since 1999 when they squeezed theier 2nd cup.
they have only won 2 under whiskey face. and it grinds them so much. the manger is faultless nearly domestically, yet a praticall beginer in europe.ALL THIS TIME AND SO MANY FALIURES.

.......
as for this wasted money debate
we can chew over it all day, we can trade stats,figures etc..
fact is we and many others have wasted valuable cash and players.
its allways a factor before the new style manager era we had players who had left/moved on etc,, who could still play - aldo,beardsley to name just 2.


i agree a few too many average players have blighted us.

but punishing the current mangement/scout stff etc.. is not the answer at this stage 

graham taylor summend it all up beautifully about 15 years ago
when asked who he wud buy to keep his team in the top league

he said ' i have a loyaty to watford fc and that includes thinking about nxt season as well as this'

he went on to state 'besides who am i going to buy for the silly money being asked'
these days u can spend 1million on a player and he cant even trap the ball'

the ammounts have changed today yet the same measure still applies

mr taylor also said hed like to shoot all agents - I agree with him as the moneys quoted here all have a xl% going to the darn agenets. thier slices make these costs look more dramatic than previous years.

...


I call upon lfc fans to allow our club a period of transition - let the ship steady dont rock the damm boat so much and carfull what u wish for.

Jim, Sweden said...

You can't just spit out its been money WASTED. This is absolute ludacris. At some point the majority of these players were sold, they didn't all DIE Jamie, hence generating money. Although it may not be the vast amount that we paid for them ITS STILL AN INCOME (+) to simplify. You can't just ignore this fact with your main argument being they're a waste since they took up team space. it makes no sense.

I'll agree these aren't the best players in the clubs history, but how would you know they havent made an positive impact on the squad, are you in it?

The Guest said...

I suppose Konchesky, Paulsen and even Joe Cole should be judged after another 9 games given Aquilani was judged on 18 league games after recovering from a serious injury in his first year in a foreign country while scoring one goal and providing 5 assists. Konchesky and Joe Cole on the other hand have played their whole careers in the premiership.

76LFC said...

Guide to this website  
 
1) Get used to his constant favourite dig at Rafa Benitez & his Supporters  
 
2) Never question him or he will label you Rafa Lovers/Supporters even if you're not  
 
3) Hold an original copy of his articles because he will edit anytime to render your comments useless

GF said...

How many more Premier League titles have they got than us?

Back to what I was actually saying. Wenger's players very rarely flop like ours do.

Inter to flop after first year...many of us can see that coming.

Johnz said...

That was an awful quote by Roy. Saying that we have "expensive failures" publicly.
Not good for any players confidence, esp when we are currently in the relegation zone, and thats mainly because of Roy's tactics(painfully obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of football.) Bar the rabotnicki game before Roy implemented his system and the blackburn game in which the players were told to play the Rafa way, all the games have been terrible..   

Aquilani is doing well at Juve, hes the star of their midfield, an important part of the new look Juve. Hes considered to be part of the new look Italian NT.

Bottom line, he did well when he was fit, showed some creativity, ability to control tempo, and had intelligence and movement that very few in our team have.

Nah, Not true that he made no impact(when he played)
Fact is, he had the highest assist to minutes ratio in the top leagues in Europe last season. 
Did Gerrard make a big impact last season in AM? hmm

Aquilani isnt susceptible to "major" injuries, just few niggles & knocks, which happened a lot during a time when Roma had a lot injury problems. 
One major part of the reason didnt get a lot games at Roma, is because he had to breakthrough into their first team. It takes time, like it does with a most young players establishing themselves in world football. He's naturally an AM, but had to play Cm cause of Totti.

Peter Brukner said, his ankle problem which was an ongoing problem last season was fully healed.  Then he gets sent on loan afterwards. Terrible.

Roys idea to replace a 26 yr Aquilani with past it 30 yr old Poulsen is an awful idea.
Terrible business decision. 
Poulsen IS past it, ask Juve fans. He was past it then and hes past it now. You don't need 4 months, to see if a player thats so painfully slow, so obviously unable cope with the prem is not going to make an impact.
Ask Juve fans. They'll tell you the same thing. 
If you said Carra is on the decline, and come to that conclusion. then look at Poulsen, you can draw the same conclusion, except Poulsen is worse. Its not hard. 

Roy also paid around 4mil + Insua(roughly 15k a week salary) + Dalle Valle/ kakcaniklic and got a 29 yr old  Konchesky on higher wages. 
Doesnt matter how much you rate those players, they had a higher resale value,. Esp given that we were offered 5million for Insua.

Konchesky is another average player. You may say give him 4 months, but why?
Hes already an average, always has been, so what will change at the age of 29. Hell finally learn how to stop letting in crosses that leads to goals after years of experience?

So thats Poulsen/Konchesky for around 9million, plus brad jones, who was bought for around  2.5million. Hes backup to fill the english quoa but we didnt need filling the quota cause of Gulasci.
Thats a lot of money wasted, and wont get it back. No resale value in any of those players. If only we could "recoup" the money.  Sadly, the moneys gone. 

Also, to imply Lucas is starting regularly and hes one of the main reasons we are in the relagation zone?
No, Its obviously Roys negative tactics.

 But still, its not true, Lucas hasnt started regularly in the Prem compared to the other players. For the most part Roy has preferred Poulsen and Gerrard partnership in CM.
So by your logic, Gerrard and Poulsen starting in CM, is a major reason why we are in the relegation zone.

Lucas is not a bad player as you say, and not many understand his role, but to do so... you have understand [...]

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