Before I post a Benitez/Ferguson first 6 years analysis (which will include gross/net spend analysis during the period) I think it's a good idea to first take a look at Rafa Benitez's total gross/net spend figures to date.
* The figures I've used are taken directly from official sources, i.e the CLUB'S own accounts. By 'Club', I mean Liverpool FC and Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
* For accounting purposes, players are classified as ‘Intangible Fixed Assets’ in the club’s annual financial reports.
UPDATE: Important Note
* Since Rafa Benitez arrived at Liverpool, there have only been 5 published club accounts. The latest accounts cover the period from 31 July 2008 - 31 July 2009.
* Table 1 below this reflects, i.e. it *only* includes the gross/net spend figures gleaned from available club accounts. It does not include transfers completed *after* 31 July 2009, i.e. Albert Aquilani and Sotiris Kyrgiakos. Those fees for players signed after 31 July 2009 will officially appear in next accounts to be published next year.
* It's all a question of accuracy: going strictly by information in the club accounts, only the first 5 years of Benitez's transfer dealings should be used.
* Having said that, we know for a fact that he bought AA and SK, and we know how much the club paid for them as it is stated in the 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section of the 2009 accounts. Despite this, we'll have to wait till next year's accounts to include those figure.
TABLE 1: Rafa Benitez Gross/Net Spend (2004-2009)
1. Under accounting requirements, the cost of acquiring a player’s registration includes:
* The transfer fee payable
* Any probable contingent amounts (i.e. Fees that may become payable/receivable in the future depending on certain conditions being fulfilled)
* Other direct costs such as transfer fee levy and fees to agents.
2. In the accounts, the year runs from July to July, so bear that in mind when thinking about what players are included in each year figure. For example: Chris Kirkland was signed on the 31st August 2001, therefore his fee will be included in the 2002 annual report, not 2001.
4. Working out net gross/net spend by compiling a list of player bought + sold, and then adding up the figures is a waste of time. The majority of player transfer fees are not made public, and there is huge disparity in the reporting of transfer fees in the media. For example, one source will say Torres cost 20m; another will say 26m etc.
The only way to be 100% certain of the gross/net spend figures is to use the official club accounts, which is what I have done. These reports are legal documents, and the club has a legal duty to include exact figures. Using the reports removes the need to use individual figures because ALL fees are lumped together as one.
5. These figures have been checked by an independent accountant.
--------------
Jaimie Kanwar
* The figures I've used are taken directly from official sources, i.e the CLUB'S own accounts. By 'Club', I mean Liverpool FC and Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
* For accounting purposes, players are classified as ‘Intangible Fixed Assets’ in the club’s annual financial reports.
UPDATE: Important Note
* Since Rafa Benitez arrived at Liverpool, there have only been 5 published club accounts. The latest accounts cover the period from 31 July 2008 - 31 July 2009.
* Table 1 below this reflects, i.e. it *only* includes the gross/net spend figures gleaned from available club accounts. It does not include transfers completed *after* 31 July 2009, i.e. Albert Aquilani and Sotiris Kyrgiakos. Those fees for players signed after 31 July 2009 will officially appear in next accounts to be published next year.
* It's all a question of accuracy: going strictly by information in the club accounts, only the first 5 years of Benitez's transfer dealings should be used.
* Having said that, we know for a fact that he bought AA and SK, and we know how much the club paid for them as it is stated in the 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section of the 2009 accounts. Despite this, we'll have to wait till next year's accounts to include those figure.
TABLE 1: Rafa Benitez Gross/Net Spend (2004-2009)
1. Under accounting requirements, the cost of acquiring a player’s registration includes:
* The transfer fee payable
* Any probable contingent amounts (i.e. Fees that may become payable/receivable in the future depending on certain conditions being fulfilled)
* Other direct costs such as transfer fee levy and fees to agents.
2. In the accounts, the year runs from July to July, so bear that in mind when thinking about what players are included in each year figure. For example: Chris Kirkland was signed on the 31st August 2001, therefore his fee will be included in the 2002 annual report, not 2001.
4. Working out net gross/net spend by compiling a list of player bought + sold, and then adding up the figures is a waste of time. The majority of player transfer fees are not made public, and there is huge disparity in the reporting of transfer fees in the media. For example, one source will say Torres cost 20m; another will say 26m etc.
The only way to be 100% certain of the gross/net spend figures is to use the official club accounts, which is what I have done. These reports are legal documents, and the club has a legal duty to include exact figures. Using the reports removes the need to use individual figures because ALL fees are lumped together as one.
5. These figures have been checked by an independent accountant.
--------------
Jaimie Kanwar
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ReplyDelete-----------------------
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Good Afternoon.
ReplyDeleteDo the figuers for 2004-2005 include transfers already completed/agreed
by Gerald Houlier / Parry which Rafa had no choice but to accept and therefore classed as his signings.
Interesting to see thanks.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering whether you think 15 million per season is really enough to merit the expectation placed on Benitez's shoulders given the amount other clubs spend? By this i mean Chelsea, City, Real and Barca
Do you think that that 90m could easily be made back if he were to sell Torres, Mascherano and say Reina for example?
I think that these figures show that Benitez should have done alot better last season, but should not be expected to win the league/champions league with that amount of money.
The figures are whatever is included in the accounts for that accounting year. There's no point splitting hairs - For example, Cisse's transfer is not included, but then his sale price is. if we took away Cisse's sale price, Benitez's net spend would look worse. He actually benefits from this, in the same way he benefits from selling any of GH's signings.
ReplyDeleteI think you may want to go review your maths.
ReplyDelete46.1 - 18.5 = 27.6 (not 28.1)
58 - 45.2 = 12.8 (not 17.3)
There is no point doing these continual updates on gross vs net spend. The Rafa apologists have it stuck in their heads that Rafa has spent no money/has to sell to buy/had no players to work with etc when he arrived. and will not change their minds, no matter how many times it is proven that he has spent as much/more than most of his competition, whether that be during his entire reign or just over the last few years. They'll also continue to ignore the fact that he has had a lot more time to do his job than the newcomers on the scene who are argued to have such a financial advantage over him
ReplyDelete(e.g. Rafa has failed to deliver the title that Liverpool has long stated is our priority, and had one real challenge at it in six years, but remains lauded on his throne.
Two Chelsea managers have been removed during Rafa's time and another gently pushed towards the door for failing to meet the required standards at the club.
Redknapp has had 18 months to strengthen his team and overtake the team that Rafa has had 6 years to build, following on from Ramos and Jol who were sacked for their failures to move the club significantly forwards.
Hughes was sacked after having a brief opportunity to rebuild his club in the transfer market and failing to significantly improve the team, following on from the dismissal of Erikson for his failure to move the club forwards significantly.
M'ON is the longest tenured of the "big spending" chasing pack, but still hasn't been at Villa as long as Rafa has at Liverpool, has spent less money, and has also overtaken Rafa's team.
Meanwhile, all bar the Chelsea managers arrived during Rafa's reign at clubs with the disadvantage lacking the stature of Liverpool in world football, and without the lure of CL football, which has been extended to Rafa for just maintaining our position amongst the Top 4 clubs in England. These facts are widely ignored by the Rafa apologists, so there is no point continuing to print out the same facts about spend which have been widely publicized (and twisted in every which way) over recent months and years.
Did you use a calculator or your fingers to calculate these figures?
ReplyDeleteHow do you expect people to believe what you are saying if you can't even be bothered to properly add up your figures? As a Chartered Accountant, I can clearly see your simplified presentation of figures but you certainly don't have a true and accurate understanding of accounting.
ReplyDeleteThanks for that. The totals are still exactly the same as I added up correctly - when i was updating the table from last year though, I just forgot to change the figures over. I've done that now.
ReplyDeleteAnd your point is??
ReplyDeleteAn average net annual spend of £15.1M is low in my opinion for a club regularly featuring in the champions league and premiership top 4 (this season excepted) and probably needs to be much higher to really be able to challenge for the top honours that we were used to winning in the 70's/80's.
If you are looking at Benitez's record financially in the transfer market, let's not forget that he bought Xabi Alonso for around £11M and sold him for 3 times that value.
Another of Benitez's "Intangible Fixed Assets" purchased for a little over £20M is now being touted as being worth £70M to Barcelona, Chelski or City.
With 4 out of 5 of the last golden gloves who can say how much more Reina is worth than Rafa's initial purchase price. What about Mascherano, now Argentina's captain no less?
You have to look at how much the total squad value has increased since Rafa's arrival as well as his annual net spend. In my opinion Rafa has had to put up with intolerable transfer policy within the club, effectively forcing him to make do on a lot of occasions.
Yes he's made some transfer howlers (who hasn't) but he's been working with his hands tied behind his back and has still unearthed some of the very best players in the world in their relative positions or roles, i.e. the aforementioned Alonso, Torres, Reina and Mascherano, not to mention some very good acquisitions in Agger, Benayoun, Maxi, Skrtel, Johnson and maybe even Lucas (being one of our better players in this poor season), oh and Kyrgiakos has been a bargain at £1.5M, providing the sort of cover that Hyypia used to in his latter years.
Oh, and on Alonso, if a player really wants to leave, you really should let him go as his heart won't be in it anyway. I agree with Carra's recent sentiments on that point.
Let's be balanced when discussing one of our best managers ever.
Regards
Pigman
Dave - City only really started spending big in the last year or so and Real & Barca don't even compete in England, so how do they impact our chances of winning the Premiership?? Rafa's spend has been comparable to those teams he's been competing against in the league, therefore the expectations are legit and he has failed to meet them
ReplyDelete(p.s. the Champions League wasn't set out as a priority, the Premiership was)
So basically what you are saying is that a manager should only be judged on one season. Forget about the honours Rafa has won, forget about the 82 and 86 points totalled. Don't make out that O'Neill and Redknapp finished above Rafa ONCE, and won NOTHING
ReplyDeleteAnd the denial begins.
ReplyDeleteSo - we establish the true net gorss/net spend, and then people start trying to make exceptions, oir change things so Benitez comes out in a better light. And if I did as you suggest, someone else would come along and say 'do it this way', no doubt coming up with a method which would make Benitez look even better.
This IS balance. It s FAIR. It is FACT. Just because yo don't think it is doesn't make it so.
And anway, I haven't drawn any conclusions from the figures, have I, so stop automatically assuming my intention is negative towards RB. I'm merely providing the figures. People can make up their own minds.
jaimie lets assume rafa is no longer in charge can you tell us who you would choose to be manager, this is really what you want ,how much blame do the owners have to take responsibility for
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. Everytime the actual figuers (or reasonably accurate ones anyway) are published it actually reiterates the fact that Rafa has done at worst, ok in the transfer market and at best, overachieved hugely in the main. Our squad, while ravaged by injuries this year, is hugely superior to what we had when we took over and the value of it has soared.
ReplyDeleteConsidering a piece Jaime did the other day when he compared how much liverpool's failure to qualify for the champions league might cost the club next year, and considering what Benitez's net spend is, it's fair to say that Rafa actually generated his whole net spend (with millions left over,) from the incredible runs we've gone on in the past few seasons.
Jay- Liverpool started last season's Champions League so we were competing against Real and Barca. I never said anything about the Premiership, i said expectations, Liverpool are expected to compete in the Champions League, hence the outcry when we went out.
ReplyDeleteCity have been spending vast amounts for 3 seasons (under thaksin) Chelsea won their first title under Abramovic in that time frame. The only team Rafa has failed to finish above is Man U. They have Fergy who has been there for 24 years. Lfc does not compete on financial terms with Chelsea, Man U or City. Spurs and Villa have finished above us once but won nothing, arsenal have a great manager but still have not won as much as rafa while he has been liverpool manager or racked up as many points
£15m net spent per year is a joke. I think the likes of Birmingham and Newcastle are spending more on players than us. Yanks out!
ReplyDeleteNo - Birmingham anr Newcastle have spent nowhere near as much as LFC.
ReplyDeleteWhatever, 15m is still a joke.
ReplyDeleteWhat I thought Jay wanted to say was that whatever evidence, wrong or right, someone may bring up, those who would follow Rafa even if he got us relegated to the Conference will not change their point of view. I also thought that what Jay wrote wasn't that difficult to understand and the stuff you wrote had little to nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteNo it is not a joke. Why are yo only focusing on net spend? Benitez has actually spent 285 in 6 years. That is a relevant figure - that is the money that has, at one point or another, gone from LFC to other clubs for players. Recouping money is fine, but net spend should not be used as an excuse for endless transfer mistakes, which is what people do.
ReplyDeleteTo say that 'benitez has spent 15 a season' is NOT accurate at all. In 2007 he spent 70m. In 2008 he spent 70m. What matters is the standard of players we got for that money, not how much we made back when they were dumped for being failures.
I think there wouldn't have been any outcry for going out of the CL if we were setting the pace in the league at the same time.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, 15 million investment per year may be enough to consolidate your position in the league, but it is not enough to hugely improve and give us an equal chance to compete for leagues with United and Chelsea who have invested far heavier and wiser than us for years
ReplyDeleteAlways dangerous to quote statistics as you can slice and dice them in various ways, but my point is that net annual spend of £15.1M is chicken feed for a club that has been one of the very best in the world and I sincerely hope will be so again.
ReplyDeleteAnd when discussing squad value, my additional point is that our current squad value is certain to be higher now that when Rafa joined by more than his total net spend, which in accounting terms means that has really spent nothing since he joined!!
Now we know that's not entirely true, but like I said, statistics!
I'm not a Rafa apologist and I can see he's made mistakes and doesn't come across as the best man-manager, but I would echo oh498's comment 'who would you chose to be manager?' Who's better, that we can afford and would like to join us?
And before you say that you haven't drawn any conclusions, your anti Rafa stance is well known and you were simply waiting for someone like Jay to do it for you.
Having said that Jay made some really good valid points about other teams/managers. Let's not forget that Villa have in Randy Learner, an owner who has the club's interests at heart and clearly works closely with MON in terms of how fiscal policy translates into player movement, both in and out, clearly to Villa's benefit.
Chelsea and City are right to demand much of their managers with the sort of money they're spending or have spent in recent years.
You cannot compare Rafa with these other managers without taking into account effects of each club's board/owners.
My tuppence worth again.
Regards
Pigman
Yet another simple article trying to bend the truth for a certain agenda. Let me explain:
ReplyDeleteChelsea spent £300 million over 3 summers before Rafa arrived.
Let driver A have a brand new Ferrari and driver B have a Mondeo.
Driver A swaps his Ferrari for a Lamborghini over the summer. Driver B spends around £5,000 and buys a bottom range BMW over the summer.
NET spend driver A = £0.
NET spend driver B = £5,000
It does not take a genius to predict that driver A will win the race even though the net spend is less than driver B.
Just talking about NET spend is not enough.
I think Bayern Munich have spent less than us in the past six years and they are in the CL final.
ReplyDeleteYou need to put this net spend in context. We need to compare LFC to their main rivals BEFORE and AFTER Rafa's reign in the following criteria.
ReplyDelete1) Year on Year average cost of (existing) playing squad
2) Year on Year average market value of playing aquad.
3) Year on Year average age of playing squad.
4) Year on Year average cost of playing squad as % of british transfer record in that year.
5) Year on year average net spending as % of turnover.
6) Year on year average league points.
7) Year on year average league points per cost of existing playing squad.
Dave - as I said, the priorities of our club was to challenge for the title, with the Champions League a secondary target. In the Champions League we were expected to coast through the group stages, where we are separated from the other top European teams that have similar spending power to us, hence the outcry when we went out at the first stage. So no, we were not competing against the likes of Real and Barca.
ReplyDeleteOn your second point, Man City only started spending big in 2008, and sacked their manager for failing to move the club forwards significantly with that increased spending power. Each of the clubs in the Premiership that have provided similar transfer funds to their managers as Rafa Benitez has received, put big pressure on their managers to move the club forwards in the league or face the sack. Rafa has had more time, more money and has failed in that same remit.
do you realise how ridiculous a statement that is? We have been in 2 champions league finals in the past 6 years incase you forget? unbelievable
ReplyDeleteNO! Can't you see that you're just trying to complicate things because the figures don't place Benitez in as nice a light as you like?! get over it! This is the standard practice for assessing net spend. Just because you can't hack that benitez doesn't look like a transfer guru doesn't mean everthing should be over-complicated. DEAL WITH IT. Stop the lame attempts to make exceptions.
ReplyDeleteIf these stats made Benitez look like a jedi master in the transfer market, you would not be asking for further analysis.
The attempts by those who support Benitez to muddy the waters is patently transparent.
Before you start comparing Benitez to Ferguson in terms of spending during Rafa's time at Liverpool, I would suggest that you look at the relative value of the squads and the start/end of that time together with the players that have been bought/sold by each. I have no doubt that your argument will be that Benitez has spent more/same as Ferguson in that time but do me one favour and have a look at the ages of the players that have been bought. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ferguson's average age of players bought being higher than Rafa. I will be intrigued to see that argument that you put forward to show Benitez should have done better.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it a ridiculous statement? It makes a valid point. Just because you can't see it doesn't make it any less valid.
ReplyDeleteWhat amazes me Jamie is that you act as though you are not producing these figures to meet you own anti-Rafa agenda whilst slagging off anyone who even mentions anything good about Benitez.
ReplyDeleteIn order for your information to bear any weight what so ever you would have to compare it with every other manager who has been competing for the same honours as Rafa for the whole duration of his tenure. You would also have to look into the circumstances of each income and expenditure i.e. what player was bought, his merits then what player was sold and his merits.
On top of this you would have to look at the squad that Rafa inherited and it's value in relative terms against the squad that Rafa has had over each season of his tenure. You can't just chuck figures out there without explaining them. For instance, last season Rafa sold Alonso for 3 times his purchase value but due to constraints on his spending he had to negotiate a cut price deal for an injured replacement. Ask yourself, why is that?
Also, ask yourself why it was we made no purchases in the January transfer window because as Christian Purslow said, there would be a better chance of quality acquisitions in the summer, and now it appears we have no money to spend? Where has it gone then?
Your constant Rafa bashing does nothing to enhance your point but instead just makes it seem contrived. Now I would put myself in the corner of Liverpool FC and look at what is really best for the club and if I had a choice who went, the owners or Rafa, it would be the owners hands down.
Rafa is building something very special indeed in our youth ranks, a real team for the future like what Ferguson did with Beck & Co. I believe that given more time and his own control over transfers with a proper budget he will lead our club back to greatness.
Figures are black and white and let's face it, life just simply isn't!
You can't blame Rafa for not winning titles so far during his reign as Liverpool manager, he's been bound by the law of statistics - and history.
ReplyDeleteUnited have never had more league titles than Liverpool however they have regularly caught up. It's actually quite interesting the order the titles were won.
Liverpool initially gained a 2 trophy lead winning the titles in 1900-01 and 05-06. United pulled level winning 2 trophies in 07-08 and 10-11
Liverpool then got a 3 trophy advantage winning in 21-22, 22-23 and 46-47, United responded with 3 of their own in 51-52, 55-56 and 56-57.
Then 63-64 Liverpool pulled into a lead once again; however it was short lived as the next season 64-65 United again levelled it up.
65-66 would see Liverpool once again get a 1 trophy lead for just 1 season as after the 66-67 season United where once again level with 7 titles each.
Liverpool then had a run of 11 league wins from 72-73 to 89-90 without United winning any. United completed a run of 11 league wins without Liverpool winning any between 92-93 to 08-09
Granted, he could have won it this season, but how was he to know the players weren't going to perform
lol what do you get for 82 points totaled?? That's like saying a manager that sees his team get relegated with 35 points has done a marvelous job and succeeded, even though the team is relegated, just because in previous seasons that figure might have kept his team up! The league is not a vacuum so we're competing against other teams, not point totals!
ReplyDeletebtw, Redknapp has only managed a team that could come even remotely close to Liverpool's stature for ONE full season (neither Villa or Spurs could attract players over us without offering A LOT more money and us showing a lack of real interest), and finished above Rafa's team ONCE (while playing a much more entertaining and enterprising brand of football).
Put Rafa at Portsmouth, Villa, Everton or anywhere else and I seriously doubt that they would have been challenging for a Top 4 place, or major trophies...
the point is totally invalid as it uses the 6 years Rafa has been in charge as a context for comparision, then totally fails to mention that in terms of finals and Champions league performance over those years, Liverpool have far outperformed Munich.
ReplyDeletestill waiting for an answer to who you want as manager jaimie
ReplyDeleteI couldn't care less what amounts Rafa spent during his six years, Net or Gross. Whats important to me is the team, too many players are coming out with comments about the manager and attitude. Not just Reira but our Captain and X Alonso. His right hand man Pako A left because of Rafa's attitude or stubborness at times.
ReplyDeleteYou can count all the league points you want, it still wont add up to a title. I feel Rafa doesn't realise how important a league title is to us supporters.
Not only do we need new owners but also a new manager. I wouldn't trust Rafa with money, simply because too many signings have failed to perform for him yet gone on to perform at other clubs, and too many dud signings. Deggen is never good enough for LFC. he keeps far too many players that he should sell and sells many of the ones he should keep.
Can i ask what has Youssi B done to not deserve a starting place, looks like he could be off loaded.
I like Rafa but dont believe he is good enough to manage us. 2nd place isn't good enough, especially if its followed by 7th. We can all dream about Instanbul in 2005, if we do we'll be left dreaming of a once great club.
We owe nothing to Rafa, if he had the decency to would walk. But he wont hes not man enoug to admit he got it wrong.
thanks for your reply
ReplyDelete<span>lol what do you get for 82 points totaled, Dave?? That's like saying a manager that sees his team get relegated with 35 points has done a marvelous job and succeeded (even though his team is still relegated) just because in previous seasons that figure might have kept his team up! The league is not a vacuum so we're competing against other teams, not point totals!
ReplyDeletebtw, Redknapp has only managed a team that could come even remotely close to Liverpool's stature for ONE full season (neither Villa or Spurs could attract players over us without offering A LOT more money and us showing a lack of real interest), and finished above Rafa's team ONCE (while playing a much more entertaining and enterprising brand of football).
Put Rafa at Portsmouth, Villa, Everton or anywhere else and I seriously doubt that they would have been challenging for a Top 4 place, or major trophies either...
p.s. thanks Anteater - though maybe a little convoluted, I didn't think that my post was that complicated! </span>
http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/12/lfc-need-motivator-and-martino-neill-is.html
ReplyDeleteSam - I wasn't going to do a Benitez/Ferguson 6 year comparison, but I've had so many requests from Pro-Benitez fans that I've gone ahead and done. They think that the stats will show that Benitez is streets ahead of Ferguson for the first 6 years, which is why they're so keen to see them. However, when it comes to transfer spending, the figures are...interesting to say the least. and re Feguson's spending, i will present two comparisons: one for the figures as they were back then; one with all trasnfer spending figures adjusted for inflation. That way, we can get the most accurat epicture possible.
ReplyDeleteand re the average ages of players - what difference does it make? None whatsoever. And in reality, Ferguson bought quite a few young players during the period (Sharp/Robins etc)
are u a liverpool fan jaimie our is your last name redknape>?
ReplyDeleteJay Jay Jay Lol
ReplyDeleteI understand why you dont want Jaimie to publish these figures. Coz it shows the truth.
Jaimie first of all I want to thank you for this piece since its showing alot of detail and I think it's not biased by your idea on Rafa.
second I want to repeat my question from yesterday. Is a budget of 15mil + money from sold players good enough for any Manager you would put in? and would you be happy with that amount if the new owners that will eventually take Liverpool fc kept it that way?
Jay coming back to what you said. With a squad built in more time than Rafa had at his disposal Arsenal won nothing in the last 4/5yrs. Spurs, City and Villa in the last 6yrs never managed a better League position than us exept this year. And compared to what Rafa won they are a joke. If we take chelsea and United I think all of us can appreciate the difference in revenues and Money to spend so I'm not even going there!!
Now if we take Real Madrid, Barcelona, Inter, United and chelsea all were beaten well by liverpool in the last 2yrs and all of them came out with a statment in the Market apart from us. Instead of Buying we were selling. This coupled with injuries, players in a dip in form and mistakes by Rafa (And I remind you that every one makes mistakes) left liverpool fc under achieving for one season.
Now the the SO CALLED best fans in the world after just one season of under achievment are coming out to take the head off Rafa. I think we really have to be more humble here and let the ppl who know the job do it.
Best regards to all LfC fans
Al, I was replying to Des' post. Would you please be so kind and read my reply in that context, because then it kind of may make sense to you. Of course I know that we have reached two CL finals, and we didn't have to spend the hundreds of millions that some people think we need now to do so.
ReplyDeleteAl, I was replying to Des' post. Would you please be so kind and read my reply in that context, because then it kind of may make sense to you. Of course I know that we have reached two CL finals, and we didn't have to spend the hundreds of millions that some people think we need now to do so.
ReplyDeleteis this the same martin oneill who is staying at aston villa
ReplyDeleteHi Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteDo you have access to net spend figures of other clubs? It would be useful to know where Liverpool/Rafa sit in comparison?
I have stuck in my head this idea (and I might be wrong) that Man U pretty much go and spend more than our Net on a single player every season and have been doing so for some time and yet Benitez is expected to beat them with less resources - I know that this opens up debate to other factors (total club income, wages etc) but it would be interesting to know what the net spend of each club is either for the past season or for the time Rafa has been in charge - even just an educated estimate.
Then we could see how the club competes financially, sadly I think its common knowledge that money does buy titles, so where in a financial table would Liverpool sit? Might be an insight to where we can expect to finish in future years if things don't improve...
Thanks
i agree. Benitez has worked a minor miracle considering how much money he is allowed to invest in ONE player. He is given a budget and then told how and where he has to spend it. We, after all having chased Dani alves, and simoa or 12m settled on bargain basement Jermaine 'effing' Pennant. Our board are pathetically slow in capitalising on an opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI think once again these statistics show that Benitez has done very well. He inherited a squad that was going nowhere and now, by Jamie's own admission, we have a squad that can challenge for the title. And we did, last season. Hopefully we do again next season. To actually have a good chance of winning it I think we certainly need more signings and better quality signings at that. Perhaps with some sales Rafa could round up 35-40 million and then fill in those gaps in the squad where we're falling down, particularly in the final third when Torres is not there to do it all himself.
ReplyDeleteSpending 285 million over 6 years actually seems quite reasonable to me. Rafa had to build an entire squad. Only a small percentage of the team he inherited is still here (and rightly so). I personally like Rafa's ruthlessness with players who don't work out and quick sales like that of Keane are positives for me. So given that a good portion of the dross has been resold we have a squad that was bought almost in entirety for what, less than 200 million? 24 players, that's less than 9 million each, I think it's a decent enough number. It's the amount of money I would expect a Liverpool squad to be worth. I would suggest that Chelsea and United have a squad value somewhat higher than that but of course I'm just guessing. Perhaps our stats king can round up some numbers.
Jamie
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to see a net spend comparison with Chelsea, Utd, City, Arsenal, Spurs and LFC during Rafa's reign.
This would make arguments much clearer.
100% agree. If rafa is allowed to buy who HE wants without the board putting the guilt trips on him he inevitably doubles or even trebles their value. The problem is it is IMPOSSIBLE to find a great wide player at a bargain price. Clubs know what they have when they have a decent winger and they are the one position on the pitch that don't come cheap. For me wide boys are all we have lacked since Rafa got here but the board are too blind to see how crucial big investment in this area of the pitch actually is.
ReplyDeleteHave you included the sales in the January 2010 transfer window if you are including Aquilani and Kyrgiakos?
ReplyDeleteAlso you keep denying that it's significant, but look at our rivals squads and compare it to the heap he had to deal with when he arrived.
And one final point, Benitez has had to accept his second choices in the transfer market time and again, if we'd have spent a bit more we could have a had Dani Alves instead of Pennant, Villa instead of Morientes. Probably even more.
Minor miracle?! I've hearvit all now. The Pro-Benitez deniall is simply stunning to behold.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it complicated to talk about spending of clubs before Rafa arrived? It complicates your argument does it not? Does not make it so easy to further your agenda
ReplyDeleteSilage - check http://www.transferleague.co.uk/ that website lays it out nice and clear for all to see
ReplyDeleteMartin O Neill? Please..........
ReplyDeleteThe man is too 'gung ho' with his tactics. He has no self control.
Have you ever seen Villa out play, out think, any of the top 4?? Never.
The only men that can replace Rafa is Jose Mourinho or Capello and that's not going to happen.
That's a bit of a joke, we'd do well for the first half of the season, then collapse in the second. That has always been the case with O'Neil teams, he still thinks you can sustain a whole season on 15 players
ReplyDeleteHow is stating FACTS bending the truth? It's not - you just want to make it seem that way because the figures don't match your own personal expectations. Furthermore, there is NOT editorial comment in the article, so what part of the article is 'bending' the truth?!
ReplyDeleteMy analysis of total and net spending differs. I have always contended that you need to account for the amortisation adjustment on disposals and the profit on disposal. If you look at the policy, any profit/loss above the net book value of the players registration is recorded in the income statement.
ReplyDeleteI hope you find these informative
No - you and the other poster are just muddying the waters to try and further your Benitez love-in. Pro-Benitez agenda:
ReplyDelete1. If the figures do not put RB in the best light, demand that lots of other calculations are made so the issue becomes comlicated (and in the hope that new set of figures will make him look good)
2. Then demand that a comparison is made with all other top flight prem league teams.
3. If that comparison doesn't put Benitez in a good light, demand a comparison is made against all top teams in Europe.
4. If *that* doesn't put Benitez in a good light, demand that a comparison is made against all top teams in WORLD football.
5. If that doesn't work (!) come up with yet more pedantic ways to slice the data, in the futher hope that the new results will make Benitez look good.
3. If that doesn't make Benitez look like the king of transfers, resort to the 'I don't care about these figures anyway - the most important things is [insert reason here]
You can see evidence of that on this thread. So may people saying 'but you should look at this, and this, and this' because they refuse to accept the simple truth as it is.
These are the facts.
GET OVER IT.
No amount of pedantification is going change the facts.
tut tut tut - I thought that I'd made it clear that the article was pointless because it just leads to these same dead-end debates over net-spend, which are then twisted around by Rafa apologists until they think that they've finally got a valid basis to say that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip. i'm pretty sure that Jamie has published similar articles previously so I didn't see what would be gained from publishing the same again, and judging by the comments posted so far, I was right!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.transferleague.co.uk/ Rafa has had more than his fair share of time and money...
(p.s. each of the Big 4 had a comparable if not worse injury situation than us this season - just because Rafa's team was least prepared to deal with inevitable injuries doesn't mean that we were the only club that suffered...)
If you took away Cisse entirely from the figures Benitez's net spend would get better not worse. Cisse was a net loss for us, bought for £14m and sold for around £6m, so we lost around £8m on him.
ReplyDeleteIt only gets worse for Benitez if you hadn't included the original £14m purchase price, but had included the £6m sale price. It's unlikely you did that though, as the accounts for the period concerned would have included Cisse's purchase.
Ok lets see now lots for rafa and more than a few against but for those of you shouting at Mr Kanwar there is no reason to the figures shown are going to be interepted as good net spend only by the pro-rafa brigade(of which I am one) or bad as gross spend all jamies doing at considerable time and effort is to show a clear FACT and before anyone starts I aint jamies biggest fan but for gods sake lay off the man WITHOUT HIS STATISTICS YOU WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT.
ReplyDeleteHaha, bit of a joke that up the top you have an unreferenced quote of 'Rejecting biased media hype and fawning blind faith fandom' yet at the bottom of the page it says 'IF YOU WANT RAFA BENITEZ TO LEAVE FOR THE GOOD OF LFC, PLEASE JOIN:' with a link to a facebook group.
ReplyDeleteYou are just as dogmatic as anyone else, but because you are the owner/modertaor, you can get away with bullying people or deleting opposing comments.
I know for one I won't be comng here again. Wonder how long this message stays up for....
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteThanks this is interesting. I thought that I would do the same thing that you've done for Benitez but for Gerrard Houllier and I think the results are interesting. What it shows is that on average Houllier's net spend is slightly higher than Benitez at £16.62m although his average gross spend is much lower at 25.68m.
Furthermore Houlier's total recoupled fees at 46.68m which might suggest he was not very good at selling players on at a profit. I've posted the excel sheet here for everyone to look at. I've used your methodology and am happy to email the report and accounts for Houllier. Before arguments start I am not trying to prove that benitez is better than Houllier or anything like that just providing the figures to add to the general discussion about spending.
I think people should stop talking about net spend. HE has still wasted alot of money on average players even if had to sell to buy. You make out like its ok to waste money as long as youve made it selling other players.
ReplyDelete<img></img><img></img>
ReplyDeleteOnce again, Hmmm, you are misinterpreting the policy in your zeal to prove me wrong at all costs. My figures have been independently verified. The actual addition/disposal figures are clear for all to see in the accounts. They constitute the actual COST, which is why they're in the cost column. Furthermore, as the image below illustrates, the amortisation and net book value is *already* included in the the disposals column. The image shows that:
Amortisation+ net book value = DISPOSAL.
My figures are correct. And as I said, they've been independently verified.
Christo chill theres plenty of facebook pages that want rafa to stay/go if the site as a whole didnt want the link banner there then it would be taken down I would assume all it does is display the current worrying trend of blaming a manager when the team doesnt/cant perform
ReplyDeleteThink them figures are spot on as ive said i think on this site our net spend average under Rafa is about £15m and imo its not enough for us to be challenging for the title and maybe not enough to be challenging for a top 4 finish with Villa Spurs and City spending large amount trying to get into the champions league.
ReplyDeleteEven though i think we should got 4th this season with the squad available and even challenge for the title but more Alarming is over average net spend for the first 4 years was £19.5m and imo should be the minimum figure a Manger at Liverpool has to compete for a top finish never mind challenge for the tilt but i still expect it , but over the last 2 years it has dropped to 6.4m average spend and just this season must be £0 or less -£X.M ?.
Jamie surely you see this as a big problem and not the only reason but part of why we missed out on 4th spot , even though i think we till should have got a 4th spot position this season.
Would you consider Rafael van der Vaart as a wide player? He went for 5m Euros to Hamburg in 2005. Someone did the (according to you) impossible and found a wide player at a bargain price.
ReplyDeleteI have seen Portsmouth outhink and outplay us last season. And Spurs away outplayed us in a way that nearly made my cry. Reading outplayed us, too. And we didn't win a few games even though we outplayed the oposition. Is that good enough for you?
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff, Rob :)
ReplyDeleteI did Houllier's net spend last year: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/12/exclusive-liverpool-fc-net-spend.html
I'm just curious - how come you didn't include 98-99? Houllier was there for pretty much the whole season (from July onwards), and all the transfers for that season were made frm July onwards, - first 2 being were staunton and heggem.
I included 98-99, so my figures are slightly different in that Houllier has a lower net spend than Benitez.
Exactly! Great point, BigJohn - the Rafa apologists will never accept it though.
ReplyDelete"He inherited a squad that was going nowhere and now"
ReplyDeleteYeah, the squad was so poor that it needed a major overhaul to win anything. Oh, hold on.
The squad he inherited had a pretty good spine. Dudek (I know, Reina is better), back four of Henchoz, Hyppia, Riise, Finnan, not too bad, eh, central midfield of Gerrard and Murphy, not exactly going nowwhere and now, Owen up front, hm, so poor that Real Madrid wanted him. Need I go on? It is beyond believe that people seem to accept the myth that Rafa inherited a poor squad when he took over.
Not a big point. No agenda for Benitez or against, but I agree that it is important to recognise that instalments on players not signed by Benitez will be in the figures and this could warp the result. Although difficult to know which way and almost impossible without the information to guess (as you say JK). But I dont agree with you JK that he "benefits" from selling Houllier purchases (such as Cisse). This is clearly part of what we are critiquing him on. He either keeps him or sells him so he should be judged on that recoup of funds which he then respends (on better or worse) for us to judge.
ReplyDeleteFirstly I dont condone wasting money and yep rafa has done that more than once BUT so has every other manager (juan veron springs to mind) and no I'm not making apologies for him but I do think that the liverpool way of letting the manager try to make amends should be followed IF we have another poor season next season then fair enough and I would hold up my hands and say I was wrong but on the other hand how many anti-rafas would do the same if we won a major trophy remember there has to be a balance in all things.
ReplyDeleteBigJohn,
ReplyDeleteI don't agree. I think net spend can be useful. All managers make bad signinings that have to be sold on. So net spend at least allows someone to guage the ability of a manger to recoup some of that money to offset the gross.
OBVIOUSLY a large annual recoup figure also means that perhaps a manager has made too many mistakes and therefore has to sell before he can replace. This is certainly Rafa's biggest mistake in that most of his squad buys (players below 15m) have been really poor. Its that simple.
However. As i;ve said before if the board are unwilling to give him any more money then they should sack him and back a new manger to take the team forward. The present situation where no-one knows if there is money to spend or if Rafa will be there to spend it is unacceptable IMO and is destabilising the team.
fair comment , but Rafa has to buy 3rd 4th choice players at times like pennant for example and what Manager hasn't made bad mistakes in the transfer window.
ReplyDeleteAnd much more expensive .. Veron etc ..
Hi G - I have all the accounts for the last 15 years for Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Villa, Spurs and Liverpool. I plan to do a gross/net spend comparison of all of them at some point, but as you can appreciate, it's a crapload of work and very time intensive! It's on my to-do list ;)
ReplyDeleteJaimie, I'm a bit confused as to why you hate Rafa so much, but that's your prerogative. I feel he's accomplished very much with relatively little resources, but anyway. Good work on the net spend, but what I'd also love to see is a salary comparison with the other top teams. From what I've gathered in football, a manager is given a financial budget to use on transfers as well as contracts/salaries. Lets be honest, at the end of the day, players are motivated by 2 things mainly, money and medals. Crouch for example took "a step down" to Portsmouth supposedly to play more regularly as he wasn't happy on the bench, but from what I gathered he moved for more than double the salary and earns about the same or more at Spurs now. Surely motivating players is much easier when they earn big salaries. What I'm getting at is, there are so many factors in judging a manager. I'm pretty certain there are very few managers who could accomplish what Rafa has done in his time. If let's say for example Mourinho had come in place of Rafa 5 years ago, do you believe we would have won the premier league by now? What's the point of replacing Rafa with someone who cannot do any more that him? If Alex Fergussen had come instead of Rafa, would we have won the CL or premier league or even a cup for that matter? Personally I don't think so. IMO money consists of 60-80% of the factors needed for success. Don't forget, Rafa has earned the money he has spent by taking us to 2 CL finals. Rafa really pushed his players to the limit last year to try prevent Manu from equaling our record, unfortunately we just couldn't do it. Instead of being given money to improve on the squad, he was given a budget then had it cut right after he bought an 18mill RB. He was forced to spend 2mill on a Hyppia replacement and took a big risk on an Alonso replacement. If he at least knew his budget beforehand.... IMO the board, namely Christian Purslow are the main source of the Reds' bad season. Just to clarify, I'm not a "Rafa apologist" as you say, I am a Liverpool supporter, and I just want whats best for Liverpool. If I believed we could get a better manager than Rafa then I wouldn't be defending him, but I'm certain any other option would just take us a step (or few) back. YNWA
ReplyDeleteSo you are saying that the managers of these teams would be better managing LFC than Rafa?
ReplyDeleteMy point was that we need someone better than Rafa to replace him.
O Neill hasn't shown anything to prove this. O Neill is too one dimensional with his tactics.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI didn't include the 1998 figures because the accounting rules didn't require the reporting of intangible fixed assets this only started in 1999 under FRS 10. Instead the 1998 Report and accounts have a transfer fee for the year of £14m and received fees of 9m. However these fees might not include amoritisation (which is only included in 1999 report and accounts) so to be consistent i excluded them.
"sacked their manager for failing to move the club forwards significantly" - something which was not fair. The Club was purchased on the final day of the transfer window in summer 2008 - the owner swiftly brought in Robinho (not Hughes).
ReplyDeleteHughes then had the Jan transfer window and Summer 09 to spend. He's not one for spending unnecesarry amounts of money - even if they do have it to burn - in 09-10 season Hughes managed to get his side to beat Chelsea, Arsenal twice and Barcelona only falling short in a 4-3 loss to United with Fergie-special added on time helping the home team.
Clubs now-a-days are too quick to show the door to the managers, OK Liverpool's had a poor season by their recent standards - it doesn't mean the manager's totally to blame or that we should kick him out, give him a chance to redeem himself first.
Jaimie.
ReplyDeleteFrom your note. 8.1 + 32.5 = 40.6, not the 40.1m in the accounts. The dont reconcile. One possibility is that the auditors made a mistake....
In reality, Amortisation is the cost of the registration of a player spread over the life of the contract. I am not making it up - it is in the notes (see attached, i highlighted it for your benefit).
The note in your post says the net book value of disposals = £8.1, but you have to also add 21.6m from the profit on these disposals (as per the accounting policy in my first post).
There is no zeal to prove me wrong. I never stated that, so please refrain from make false accusations. If I was trying to prove you wrong, I would have said that. I just wanted to share a different perspective to other fair minded fans to debate.
I really appreciate getting some objective information from your articiles. It's a refreshing change from the unsubstantiated crap the media keeps feeding us. It would be good to know how Liverpool's net spend in last 5 years has compared to top four, and Man City. No doubt you're already on it!! Cheers Jamie
ReplyDeleteps. if it gives you any peace of mind, I have had this reviewed by a qualified accountant in one of the big 4 accounting firms.
ReplyDeleteAll this shows Jamie is that we have been competing against the spending power of Utd, Chelsea and City with the same net spend as Spurs and Villa. And this is with LFC supposidly having the extra income from the Champions League.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason Utds net spend is so low is from the £80m sale of Ronaldo.
Also Utd, Chelsea, City dont have to go selling players if they want to bid for £20m+ players like Rafa does. This makes a massive difference.
the problem is the fact that it's Liverpool (the club)
ReplyDeleteOnce a team knows that 'Liverpool' is interested in one of their players their value suddenly skyrockets, unfortunately forcing us to look somewhere else. Ok you may say we've had the money, but it's not about having the money - it's about making money, you don't want to have to buy players only to sell them later making a loss but because of the greed of some of the smaller teams brought about by the larger teams getting huge investments this has happend on some occasions.
This age of investment has all happened just as Rafa became manager at Liverpool, and during his reign Liverpool was also sold making teams believe that Liverpool suddenly had endless amounts of spare cash. (e.g. Mascherano - at West Ham wasn't even making the bench, we took him on loan for 6 months suddenly he's apparently worth £18.6m)
These are the reasons we ended up with players like Pennant or making losses on people like Keane.
Fair enough. I know you're not making it up, and I thank you for taking the time to compile your figures. They make interesting reading. If you're up for it in the future, perhaps we could collaborate on a stats-related project? Two sets of eyes are better than one.
ReplyDeleteYou know I was going to respond to that and, honestly, dude, just take a few minutes and think about what you've actually written. Think about the Owen situation for a second and then perhaps try and understand the point I was trying to make. What you're saying doesn't even make sense.
ReplyDeleteGuest - I'm not arguing that they were right or that it was fair to sack Hughes so quickly. My point is that the other managers that got to spend more/similar amounts to Benitez either had to deliver in the league or move on. Our problem is that we've gone too far on the other side in allowing the manager to remain in his position even after he has continuously failed in his remit, spewing nonsense about "The Liverpool Way" or a bunch of other random excuses to maintain the status quo
ReplyDelete3 years imo is more than enough time to firmly put your stamp on a team, and after 6 years to be complaining that you need more time to revamp the team is simply taking the pi55!!
Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteive read your posts before and its fair to come to the conclusion that you are not one of Rafa Benitez's biggest fans (If I'm not correct with this conclusion can you happily correct me!). Even though he has re-built the squad and our reputation as a world famous football club.
You have also mentioned on numerous times that Martin O Neill is the man you would like to see replace Rafa.
You seem to like FACTS and FIGURES (just like the man himself i might add! lol). Can you please give a FULL record of Martin O Neill's managerial career like you did with Rafa please. And also can you look at his transfer history in his Villa career.
Maybe these FACTS and FIGURES will help you win over all us "Rafa Apologists" as you seem to happily call us.
I appreciate you will say this will take you alot of time and effort ect, but you managed to pull together Rafa's Net Spend figures 1 day after collecting his managerial record. So this should be easy peasy for you.
many thanks,
What's wrong with realising a player is not good enough and selling him? Sounds like a good quality for a manager to have. Rafa has had money but he's always had to fit in 3-4 players for the 25 odd million he gets to spend. He had to take risks, so he took risks, some didn't work out, so he sold them again. I'm sure that in an ideal world no manager would ever have dud buys but it happens. Rafa simply signed a great number of players and therefore has had his share of dross.
ReplyDeleteG - http://transferleague.co.uk/ Liverpool have in fact spent more gross AND net than Man U during Rafa's reign (and I clearly remember other Liverpool fans arguing that Man U were "finished" and Liverpool were the future a few short years ago, so let's not just say they had/have a superteam that required no investment)
ReplyDeleteSam - You're right: I am not one of RB's fans. I think he is wrong for the club, and I don't believe he is the long-term answer. I have well documented views on *why* I don't think he's the right man, and my views are not fickle. I've been consistent for years, even going back to the day he was appointed. I was against his signing as manager; I wanted O'Neill in 2004.
ReplyDeleteI will do an analysis for O'Neill - I've alread started it.
Mascherano was a huge talent before he went to West Ham been chased by all the top clubs , just because west ham didn't play him doesn't mean we over paid .If sold today he would bring in a tidy profit.
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeleteI did a little bit more number crunching and readjusted my figures for Houillier and you're right his net spend is lower than Benitez. However I don't agree that its right to include Aqualini's transfer to the last annual report so i've excluded it so that the figures are consistent with Houllier - i've not done this to put benitex in a better light his next spend is negligibly lower than houllier anyway.
I've also looked done a new field looking at recouped money as a % of gross spend which is quite interesting. Houlier's last two years the money he's recouping as a percentage of gross spend exceeds his gross spend massively. Again this might suggest that in the last two years Houllier knew the squad was too weak and therefore actively selling more players.
For Benitez every year bar the first his recouped fees as a % of gross spend is over 50%. If I was on the LFC board (or indeed chairman and or CEO) and looking at these figures I would be asking why the manager is turning over so many players per season even if he is making a significant portion of his money back on them. This would tell me that either the manager needs more money to spend on quality players (as he is taking too many chances on mediocre players) or that he is poor in the transfer market and is having to frequently rectifty those mistakes. The answer as with most things in life is probably somewhere in the middle.
Therefore the board needs to either decide to provide money to benitez to buy real quality (1 or 2 players) or sack him and bring in someone else...
No, I am not saying that their managers are necessarily better than BenÃtez. I just wanted to put some perspective to your comments regarding O'Neill not out thinking others, his teams not out playing others. Perspective. That's all.
ReplyDeleteBut if you want to hear something like that, I will tell you what I think. Rafa is out thinking himself. He is too smart for his own good. And he probably believes his own hype. But he may also be such a odd guy for 'all' the media being against him and him feeling beleaguered. We may get a psychologist in for him. I think that he has serious mental problems. Probably some kind of paranoia, but that's only the impression I get.
Actually if you understand what I have said the point is you cannot have a point to this article if it only has HALF the truth. If all the facts and figures were laid out most people will realise how well Rafa has done under the most awful financial constraints.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with it is the repeated wasting of money on players who shouldn't have ben signed in the first place. As a result of signing the wrong players, the club loses the benefit that would have been gained from some other *effective* player who could have been signed. Two example: Keane and Aquilani
ReplyDeleteCombined fee - 38m.
Comibined impact - zilch.
If that 38m had been spent on two different players capable of making an impact, the knock on positive effect could conceivably have been immense. We would've had a goalscoring striker as backup for Torres this season, and a quality mid available from the start of the season to replace Alonso.
That's the problem.
Yeah, you go on and tell the world how poor a team Rafa inherited as that was the point you tried to make. I disagree, but for the Owen situation. If would even go as far as to claim that some of the players Rafa inherited are better than the ones we had to deal with in the respective positions last season. I'd take Riise over Insua any given day or Murphy over Lucas, at least for now as Lucas may or may not improve. I would actually take Hyypia over Carragher.
ReplyDeleteOur net spend is only so low because of the 30m sale of Alonso. It's not 80m, sure, but how often do you see Rafa recouping three times what he has spent on a player?
ReplyDeleteI dont think that you can compare the figures from the first 6 years or Rafa's spend to that of Ferguson/Wenger etc the market has changed so drastically that you cannot possibly put a figure on what Gary Pallister cost in comparison to Rio Ferdinand, both players who commanded record fees when they were bought. I had anticipated you comparing the spending during Rafa's time to that of ferguson in the same period, i.e since 2004 until today. Benitez has had to catch up about 15 years of improvements since he joined Liverpool on that of Man Utd and about 10 years worth of improvements on Arsenal. Chelsea and now City have got the money to make that improvement in the space of 2-3 years by flinging money at anyone and everyone but in reality, Liverpool have not been the force they were since Dalglish left. We were left behind in terms of young players and quality of the squad long before Benitez joined. I would suggest that the issue that Rafa needs to look at is not the top players and their quality, more the quality of the squad as a whole. In Mourinho's time at Chelsea he was able to spend big money on bringing in a squad of 23 players, his perfect sized squad I believe that consisted of 2 world class players in each position with 3 goalkeepers. Ferguson has tried to emulate that but has been lucky in that Ronaldo and Rooney were able to play in 2-3 different positions. Both however cost big money to bring in. Wenger is slightly different as he has a talent for spotting youngsters as do his scouting network. Issue for Rafa though was that from top to bottom, our group of players were not good enough. We made a number of improvements each season but if I was Rafa, I would point to the fact that the one season when we REALLY feel the pinch, last season, was the very season when we went backwards as a club. Suddenly our youngsters dont look like they will make the grade, our senior players have looked uninterested and our flair players have not played well enough. Add to that the moaning of the likes of Riera, Babel, even Agger sometimes and the problems with Masch wanting to leave, Torres being injured and Gerrard not being as dynamic as previous seasons and I think it starts to show what the problem has been. I appreciate that you have a point of view and credit for looking for facts to back that up but I dont think transfer spending is the place to start looking. Had Rafa been given the money from Keane and Arbeloa as well as the money from Alonso and an extra £15-20m on top, we may well have been able to bring in Aquilani, Johnson and another striker/midfielder that we needed which would have meant that the players we had missing were not missed as they were.
ReplyDeleteThe 'heap' he's had when he took over only needed minor changes to acchieve great success in Europe.
ReplyDeleteExellent article. Great to have you back, Jaimie.
ReplyDeleteThe example of Veron comes up every now and then. I think it is a question of 'can we afford this'. Manure make sh1tloads more than we do on merchandise, tickets etc. They have more income. We have not that much to work with, and Rafa knows it, so he should rather get his purchases right.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they want him to go by himself in order to avoid a huge pay-off, which Rafa had alleghedly written in his contract despite him claiming that he has only the best for the club at his heart.
ReplyDeleteNice idea looking at the accounts to get net spend etc.
ReplyDeleteSure the additions figure reflects the values of players bought in that financial year.
But is the disposal figure the value the club got for the player they disposed of?? Or is it just the value at which the player was carried on the Intangible assets (ie original cost of the player when they were purchased). Maybe need to look at your accountancy rule book to see.
I suspect you have half teh info on disposals, the revenue from sales will have been posted to the Profit and Loss Statement, within the Fixed Assets Disposal figure which shows Revenue from asset sales less the original disposal value (your disposals figure).
Obviously the disposals figure you use is a historical cost, so I think you compare apples with pears.....
Keep digging, the truth is there.
Great point. take away the 30m Alonso fee and Benitez's net spend doesn't look so rosy. I love hypocsiry of some fans - they argue that United's net spend wouldn't be so low without the sale of Ronaldo, and then refuse to accept the same principle when it applies to Liverpool!
ReplyDeleteFraggs - It is beyond dispute (IMO) that Houllier left a good squad. When Benitez arrived, he had: Gerrard, Carragher, Hyypia, Hamann, Kewell (who had a great first season before Benitez took over), Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Henchoz, Owen etc.
ReplyDelete12 of the 14 players used in the CL final against Milan were already at the club when Benitez arrived. That tells it's own story.
Furthermore, the likes of Smicer, biscan,diouf ,cheyrou,cisse,mellor,pongolle,le tallec may have been at the club, but we've have Degen, Voronin, Babel, Kromkamp, Josemi, Zenden, Pellegrino etc, so what's the difference.
Torres aside, I would take Houllier's first team over Benitez's. And, like Anteater, I would definitely take Hyypia over Carragher any day of the week. In my view, Hyppia is the tied with Hansen as the greatest defender ever to wear the shirt.
And it's worth noting that without Smicer, Mellor and Pongolle, Liverpool would not have won the CL in 2005. Pongolle and + Mellor turned the Olympiakos game back in Liverpool's favour; Smicer scored the goal that put LFC back within realistic touching distance of Milan, and gave the team that extra bit of motivation to keep going.
And Murphy - forgot him.
ReplyDeleteHey Rob - recouped as a % of gross spend is great additional stat. I'll have to steal that from you and incorporate it into future version of the stats.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point about the board assessing Benitez's spending - of course, I would argue that it's because he's rectifying so many mistakes, but then I would say that ;)
The 'net-spend is everything' argument really does my head in. It's not the most important thing at all. To illustrate the ridiculous it is:
* Team X spends 500m over 5 years on players
* Team X recoups 450m over the same period.
The net spend cult will try and tell us that the entire team over the last 5 years only actually cost 50m (!)
It's pure lunacy. The important figure there is 500m - what benefit the club obtain for that outlay? If it's nothing, then what was the point in the first place? 5 years have been wasted with no progress; nothing has been won; countless transfer mistakes have been made. But it's all okay because money was made back?!
Football clubs don't exist for the sole purpose of creating a brilliant net spend; they exist to win trophies and progress on the football field.
Friggin' net spend - a pox on both your houses!
I don't get how people can defend Rafa all the time... I'm a Boca Jrs fan (I'm from Argentina), so there's no bias here. The fact is he's had a bigger net spending during his time as a liverpool manager than any other team but chelsea and city. Manutd has a smaller net spending even if you don't count what they made with Ronaldo. And those are numbers, no subjectivity at all. The fact is he made some aweful buys (and some great ones), wich wasted a lot of money; that once he got the team to a place where he could get the 19th title, he bottled it (twice if you take into account this season). But what I REALLY don't get is how people who are supposed to be liverpoopl fans act as if they were benitez' fans. When a manager doesn't work, you get a new one, that's how it works. Holding on to a guy because of one piece of significant silverware 6 years ago is stupid. Plus he isn't even a fan of the club, he doesn't really love it, and once he's offered a big enough check he's leaving, so why stick with him when he's not the man you need right now?
ReplyDeleteWow. I could almost come to respect your point of view regarding Rafa Benitez, even if I don't agree with it. (which is a damn site more than you do with the 'rafa love in' brigade). But Martin O'Neil? Let's get this straight..This is a guy who has achieved nothing in Europe, Only won the league in a league of 2 teams and is completely inept tactically. (7-1 Chelsea, 5-0 Liverpool). Any manager of a team who lets in 7 goals is lacking something, surely? Not to mention in the last couple of seasons they have tired towards the end due to the fact he is anti-rotation (not because he doesn't have the subs mind you, reo coker and heskey off the top of my head, just chooses not to use them). It also should be noted he has built a good team so it's not like he is managing a bunch of amateurs! I will give you this Jamie you know how to put some stats together but jesus you have no idea about football in the modern age where managers need a bit more upstairs than they did in the past. Martin O Neil is an old style manager in a modern game, he will never be good enough for Liverpool or any other top team in world football.
ReplyDeletePerfect analogy !!! Jack.
ReplyDeleteBut with the $$ they have, what Chelsea did is right though... bought a group of top players at one go and build the team together... it is much effective then buying one or two over each season and you need time to integrate new players in every seasons.. Only sugar daddy's club can do that.., ManCity is trying to do what Chelsea has done but not able to attract top class players though.
We Red can only buy low sell high to gradually improve the squad... sigh!!!
Who would have thought that we'd agree on so many things when I first came to your site.
ReplyDeleteSo even when Rafa won the champions league and fa cup in his 1st two seasons, you still thought that he wasnt right for us and Martin O Neill was a much better and deserving candidate for the job??
ReplyDeletenow i know you're having a laugh mate. Martin O Neill is worse than a 2nd rate manager - he doesnt have the class or calibre to manage a giant of a team like ours!
PS: as a side note: you claim that you are a LFC fan. Yet you have a facebook group at the bottom of this page to join if you want Rafa out. Wheres the group to join if you want to keep Rafa?
Boca Juniors, Argentina? Is that you Emiliano Insúa? Give us some insight about BenÃtez!
ReplyDeleteI understand the need to present these figures, we as a club have become embedded in gossip and its time we slowly put all this chatter to bed.
ReplyDeleteMy simple view point;
1. I love my club and have done so for over 40 years
2. Football has changed from the family run game to a more business focused venture and to stay up there we seem to believe we have to follow this money based model, even if we don't like it.
3. The internet has promoted gossip and chatter, hence me leaving this comment, but the concern is how some use this forums for insult and mind-games, I'm right your wrong attitude .. what bull that is ... we are all the same, heart-broken fans confused by the mess, but i realise we are helping the mess ... lets stop and focus our energy on success and belief in the players we have.
4. The truth is never as glamours as the gossip
5. LFC is a huge club and we are NOT in danager of going broke .. that you can bet on !
6. yes I believe we need new owners but we need to be very careful, who knows what we might get next time ... the grass isn't always greener :)
7. The global recession has had a big impact on the investment in players and a new ground .. thats not the owners direct fault, although those who deal in profit for profit sake are part of the global financial crisis, I think they call it "greed" and not only do owners fall into that zone, but so do footballers and managers ...
8. Rafa has done a good job overall, all the chatter about first great season, terrible last season, net spend, nearly this, nearly that etc .. is called smokes and mirrors. He was employed to bring us the PL ... no further comments needed.
9. I don't care who owns the club or who is the manager, they need to provide position chat via the press about our goal being to win the PL next season ... I don't care about excuses from the board to the grass cutters, if we don't believe we are good enough, no amount of money will matter.
10. for those not sure, this clubs success was always based around belief, not money, resources or a brand, yes it helps .. no, we were unbeatable because we believed we were ... and it works, but chat about no money, no quality just leads to no confidence ... yet we have a team full of quality
11. the manager, players and owners of any club has no right to chat negative about the club, if they doesn't like it, move and do it quickly please!
12. I will always believe we are good enough, just need to get that one thought back into the mindset of all LFC fans (I'm I living in a dream world, well I'm not the one pointing fingers, chatting bubbles or disrespecting other ... so if I am, its a damn sight better one then most these days)
13 who knows, maybe rafa can learn to tame his ego and keep is talking to the pitch, greatness is not bought (maybe for short periods) but over history, greatness comes from belief, a strong union between club and fans and a few bob now and again ... we are very near a PL winning side .. start believing and you just never know :)
RR
Thanks FarEast Red. Its amazing how some of our fans can be played so easily. Many media organisations never mention Net spend and if they do they omit this very important principle. Chelsea and Man U had vastly more expensive squads when Rafa arrived.
ReplyDeleteWell said Jaimie. If Rafa spent wisely i personly dont think we wud be in this situation.
ReplyDeleteWell sorry to tell you. But from what these FACTS are showing Rafa is already working miracles!! Don't you think? I'm still waiting for an answer!! Would you be happy if the new owners of Liverpoolfc (whom ever that may be) gave a transfer kitty of 15mil + sales from players?
ReplyDeleteApart from Reina, Torres and Alonso whos the great number of players?????
ReplyDeleteApart from Reina Torres and Alonso. Whos the great number of players????
ReplyDeleteThe way you guys criticise and compare, you would find only faults in every single manager. Anteater you should become our chief scout since you're so brilliant! Sorry bro, I'm sure you love LFC but come on! All of Rafa's bad buys put together don't even add up to one Veron, and that was years ago, prices have doubled since then. And how bout all the gems unearthed? Is a player a flop if he can be sold at more than he was bought? For every player sold at a loss we have way more sold at a profit - Keane, Dossena, Morientes (Pennant) r the only (significant) ones I can think of? Alonso, Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko, Gonzales, Arbeloa, Voronin even + our entire current squad probably?
ReplyDeleteSorry guys but I think there's just too much negativity in our own supporters, not helped by the ridiculous biased press who just love to hammer our (foreign) manager who they never took a liking to from day 1. Not once have I seen a complimentary article on Rafa in the press. I've seen articles about poor Moyes and his injury ravaged squad/lack of transfer fees etc but never once a similar one about Rafa.
Hey Jaimie, you're a cool guy.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. Though, I knew you'd see sense in the end ;-)
ReplyDeleteOh dear! Well, hm, how do I put it. TheycallmemrBurt claimed that it was impossible to find a wide player at a bargain price. I really love sentences like that (including words like 'all', 'never', 'impossible'), because you need only one example to show that these sentences are false. That is what I did. Call that kind of behaviour cynic or whatever you like, but may I suggest that it would make me more suitable to be the writer of Rafa's speaches than our head-scout. It's really great to see that you read what people post, but sometimes things can be misunderstood.
ReplyDeleteAs for the 'ridiculous biased press'. I don't give a damn what they write. Well, I actually do. Look here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1279610/Liverpools-Alberto-Aquilani-Juventus-midfielder-Felipe-Melo-swap-flops.html?ITO=1490
Some people liked what I had to say about that rumour.
I try to judge our manager from what I see myself.
Oh dear! Well, hm, how do I put it. TheycallmemrBurt claimed that it was impossible to find a wide player at a bargain price. I really love sentences like that (including words like 'all', 'never', 'impossible'), because you need only one example to show that these sentences are false. That is what I did. Call that kind of behaviour cynic or whatever you like, but may I suggest that it would make me more suitable to be the writer of Rafa's speaches than our head-scout. It's really great to see that you read what people post, but sometimes things can be misunderstood.
ReplyDeleteAs for the 'ridiculous biased press'. I don't give a damn what they write. Well, I actually do. Look here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1279610/Liverpools-Alberto-Aquilani-Juventus-midfielder-Felipe-Melo-swap-flops.html?ITO=1490
Some people liked what I had to say about that rumour.
I try to judge our manager from what I see myself.
Oh dear! Well, hm, how do I put it. TheycallmemrBurt claimed that it was impossible to find a wide player at a bargain price. I really love sentences like that (including words like 'all', 'never', 'impossible'), because you need only one example to show that these sentences are false. That is what I did. Call that kind of behaviour cynic or whatever you like, but may I suggest that it would make me more suitable to be the writer of Rafa's speaches than our head-scout. It's really great to see that you read what people post, but sometimes things can be misunderstood.
ReplyDeleteAs for the 'ridiculous biased press'. I don't give a damn what they write. Well, I actually do. Look here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1279610/Liverpools-Alberto-Aquilani-Juventus-midfielder-Felipe-Melo-swap-flops.html?ITO=1490
Some people liked what I had to say about that rumour.
I try to judge our manager from what I see myself.
Interesting reading.
ReplyDeleteI have one query though. As you've added the purchase of AA & SK for August '09 should that not also include the sale of Alonso who I'm sure was sold the day before Liverpool signed AA?
Regards,
It's not entirely clear whether the money from Alonso's sale (or part of it) is included in the current accounts. There is a note that states that Alonso, Dossena and Voronin were sold for a combined fee 29m - that may be true but if it, then it casts doubt on the 30m tfer fee for Alonso that is widely reported. If Dossena did in fact go for 4.5m, and Voronin 1.5, that means Alonso's sale fee could be as low as 24m.
ReplyDeleteThe fees for Kyrgiakos and Aquilani can be proven absolutely (one in the accounts; another via AS Roma), which is why I included them.
im amazed by all this info I repectfully ask how anyone has:
ReplyDeletea, the time,resouce and man hours to spend on this?
b, the actual authority/granted acesses to these accounts?
c, and I must also ask (as it begs the question) how can all this be verified ? ie genuine proof! sceptical yes however in these times surely a qs many have.
i ask thiswith respect as this does not appear endorsed by the club and this is an outside source yes?
a) I work from home 95% of the time (or from wherever I want to), so it's easy for me to fit everything in. I also work fast ;-)
ReplyDeleteb) The accounts are available in the public domain.
c) The fact that the information comes from official club accounts is verification. The figures are not made up, they are factual.
24m for Alonso. Now, that would be shocking business and would make look Rafa pretty stupid when claiming he wasn't able to spend what he had earned.
ReplyDeletethanks for that.
ReplyDeletewhen u say public domain - wud this be the online scribed site or another similar, id like to actually see where?
and 'sources' can u clarrify?
again with respect I dont know u from Adam! - just stating this is not proof.
conclusive evidence would require the source as again without such its not substantiated.
The money debate/argument is amusing but a distraction.
ReplyDeleteThe reason the team is in a parlous state is because RB is a manager who fears defeat. Bill Shankly absolutely hated losing but he, and Bob Paisley, were never scared of it. So their teams went out to win, and if they lost then they worked out why and next time it was seriously different.
With RB, it's all about not losing. We should have battered Milan in 2007-they were terrified of us. Did we go for their throats? No. Result? Defeat. The same pattern has been followed every season in the PL. Drawing with teams who were there for the slaughter, because RB cannot face losing. It cost us the PL last season, it's been a contributing factor to this season's abject performance and it will be a millstone round the team's neck for as long as he's in charge.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want a reckless manager in the Kevin Keegan mould, I just want one with a bit of bottle.
Club accounts can be purchased from the UK's Companies House: http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/
ReplyDeletere sources - I don't care whether people believe me or not. Whether they do or not is irrelevant to me as I'm not trying to convince people. I'll just keep posting stuff, and occasionally I might mention that it came from a source. People can make up their own minds based on the content.
Although this article detailed factual evidence of Liverpools accounts in previous seasons, there is a bit of ambiguity of the years 08-09 and 09-10 and the related figures. By no means is the website http://transferleague.co.uk accurate as there is discrepancy in figures paid both upfront and via target-related add-ons but it indicates roughly a £2.3m net spend over the last two years. As i said it is not entirely accurate and is not official club documentation as the ones produced for this article but the figures won't be too far off. The display of these figures by grouping 08-10 does indicate a degree of bias in displaying factual information and seen as there is no report for 09-10, there are assumptions made for the later figures. Also as there is no individual breakdowns of transfers spent, it is difficult to establish those last figures accurately.
ReplyDeleteI think it does show that Rafa was given money at the beginnings of his Liverpool career and the club made significant strides in this period winning the Champs League and moving the club closer to the premier league title with the exception of this last year. The last two years though has seen, net spending of the club drop dramatically to under double figures whilst Spurs, Villa, and City have invested significantly more than us. These teams are very close now as there increased investment has bridged a gap to Liverpool while we have remained stagnant. Chelsea and Man Utd have built there teams with either huge investment or for Slur Alex the chance to build over many many years.
I would say that this article has not indicated much bias towards or against Rafa but I feel there are too many Liverpool fans who expect instant success or a divine right to it. We all want success but money plays a larger part in the success of premiership teams these days and whether we finish 7th-2nd we are not champions! Man Utd(the benchmark) have a huge stadium, bigger commercial value, an expensive assembled team and a recent history of success (players who know what it takes to win championships!!!). Liverpool are strides behind this and the owners knew the gulf that needed to be breached and the huge investment that is required.
Everyone needs to keep faith with Rafa! With new owners transfers that fell apart such as Silva, Dani Alves etc may be things of the past!
Anyone who thinks H&G have been good for the club needs a serious reality check!
p.s. To people who said Torres was no gamble - all the media suggested he couldn't become a prolific goalscorer (as he wasn't in Spain) but Rafa saw the potential.
Agreed. I've attached the section of the report that states the Alonso fee.
ReplyDeleteJ - You're comparing a site that uses newspaper articles to gather transfer fee figures with the official club accounts - legal documents - signed off by the directors. There is no ambiguity - only right and wrong, and transferleague is wrong. The site is notoriously inaccurate. The only way you can be 100% sure is go to the source, andthat is the club accounts.
ReplyDeleteAs you can see from table 1, the net spend for the last two accounting years is over 20m, not 2.3m. You might not like it, but it's the truth.
The money debate/discussion/spat is amusing but irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteThe reason the team in a parlous state is because RB is a coward. The man is terrified of losing. Shankly hated losing, but he wasn't scared of it, and when they lost he and Paisley would work out why and next time it would be seriously different. RB's yellow streak cost us the European Cup in 2007 (AC MIlan were terrified of us, we should have battered them), cost us the PL last year and is a contributing factor in this season's debacle. How many times has he played 4-5-1 against weaker opposition? Don't get me wrong, I don't want a gung-ho idiot like Keegan, just someone with a bit of bottle.
nice 1 mate, I gave you a green arrow myself 8-) and yes you're quite right, that's possibly 1 of Rafa's biggest problems, he doesn't know how to handle the idiot press half the time, plus his english is not so great. Anyway I just get frustrated cause people are too critical and not fair. It was the first summer he had full control over transfers, and he had the rug pulled from under him right after he bought Johnson. I seem to remember he was still going to buy a quality CB and a quality striker and that's without having lost Alonso which means he should've had at least 60-70mill to spend (incl Alonso/Keane money) yet he only got Aquilani and Kyrgiakos. = 20mill. i.e. the board saved appx 50mill, and now we're paying for it. There where we might have/should have been challenging for the title again this last season, we're now worried about losing our best players.
ReplyDeleteI would have agreed with you - if we had a class squad to begin with. What would you have done if you walked into a team of players mediocre at best. He kept Gerrard, Carra and Sami, the rest were either aging or rubbish or on their way out already i.e. Owen
ReplyDeleteThats just the problem. Its not balanced nor fair. If you look at my first posting with the analogy you would realise that your argument has no intrinisic value without taking into account the worth of squads of LFC and its competitors when Rafa arrived. Spewing out the same figures again and again does not make it right. When are you and your anti-Rafa brigade going to understand this?
ReplyDeletekeep posting and i will still contribute my 2 cents.... :-D
ReplyDeleteor you can accumulate the interest ;)
RR - great post. I enjoyed pt 6. Given the financial state Dubai are in right now, I am not sure DIC would have been a better bet...
ReplyDeleteNot in this year's accounts (i.e. up to end of July 2009) as it has been described as a 'post balance sheet event', which means "something that happened after the date the date of the balance sheet". Makes sense at it happened in August.
ReplyDeleteOne other consideration - 'guaranteed' is probably a key word. There may be some add-ons from performance etc which would not be in that number.
That's not really what I was talking about. I'm saying that Rafa's willingness to turnover his poorer quality buys is a good thing. Saying that it would be better if we bought players who were more effective doesn't even need to be said, it's absurdly obvious. You could really make more of an effort to actually understand what other people are saying.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, don't I remember you once saying that it was likely that Keane really did make an impact on our early season form? You also blame Rafa for poor man-management skills, using Keane as one of your prime examples. You can't really have it both ways: if Keane was a good player but mismanaged then it reflects badly on Rafa's management skills. If he was a poor buy in the first place then Rafa's management skills are fine.
Don't really understand what that means do you? "Great number" means "many". Rafa has bought many players.
ReplyDeleteThis is the kind of nuts that Alan Hansen came out with. It doesn't seem to take long for people to forget how poor some of those players were. Henchoz was very much on his way down and put in a terrible season before he left. Dudek is just Dudek, occasionally brilliant but also produced some awful form at times, gifting games to opposition. Kewell was a crock and please, understand, I live in Australia and would have loved nothing more than to see him do well.
ReplyDeleteStill, you've both missed the point of what I'm trying to say. Rafa inherited a squad that needed to be replaced. Owen needed to be replaced, Henchoz, Dudek has been replaced by one of the best goalkeepers in the world, Finnan (check his time in Spain) and Kewell both injury prone, Didi towards the end of his career, Smicer only getting a look in because of injuries. In some cases Rafa chose to replace players but in other cases he had no choice, there are virtually none of those players who are still good enough today. That's the point. They would not still be good enough today so at some point they had to be replaced. Money had to be spent.
What I'm ultimately saying is that the money Rafa has spent is simply proportional to the number of players he has bought. He has bought more players than other managers so therefore he has spent more. It's absurdly simple. It doesn't automatically mean he was wasteful just because it's a big number. We have a very good team right now, no one would dispute that, and to buy 20-24 players to compete at the top of the best league in the world costs a hell of a lot.
Mildly patronising...
ReplyDeleteYeah, sorry you are right, Biscan, Traore, Smicer, Kewell, Cisse, Pongolle, Le Tallec, they've all gone on to achieve so much, and will doubtless be in many more Champions League finals
ReplyDeleteGuest,
ReplyDeleteIs that the same squad that won the CL in 2005 and you are calling it mediocre. So what Benitez achieved with the squad that he has now?
Were does it end with the IRWT brigade, what a joke.
Not doubting your figures but would you explain how from 2008-2009 our net spend was -£6.4m and from 2008-2010 it was £12.8m , given a net spend of £19.2m from July 2009 -2010 Jan .
ReplyDeleteWouldn't have thought had a net spend at all never mind £19.2m with the money we have taken in in the last 2 transfer windows ?
If ive read it wrong , fair enough ..
just wondering Jamie.
.
.
The latest accounts of the Premier League's clubs {summary}
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/19/premier-league-finances?CMP=twt_gu
Wages as a % of turnover some clubs in the range of 90%-118% , Arsenal very impressive at 32.9% to Burnley at 118%
ReplyDeleteRC - Read the article again - it is stated clearly how that is the case. I don't have time to keep explaining everything over and over.
ReplyDeleteSO just because van der vaart has a left foot it makes him a winger...very interesting As far as I know he has always played either behind the front two or in central midfield. The reason he went for 5million kind of reflects the fact he peaked at the age of 19.
ReplyDeleteNOW..lets break this don a bit.
man utd velencia 16m Nani 17m
aresnal nasri 10m Walcott 12 Arshavin 12m
Chelsea Malouda 14m
Tottenham modric 24m Bentley 15m
Villa Downing 12m young 10m and Milner 12m
Man city Bellamy 14m wrightphilips 9m
LIVERPOOL el zhar 750 riera 8m bennayoun 6m Babel 11m
Surely I have a point.....
No he is not a wide player. The reason he cost 5mill is because he peaked at 19.
ReplyDeleteI dont think it is necessarily how much you spend but being allowed to spend big on those players that make a difference i.e. Ribery, Robben etc
ReplyDeleteCheers ....
ReplyDeleteOne other point , what players and fees for those players are to be added since July 31 2009 .... if i know what players i can give a total or if you want can give a educated guess ..
i would use http://www.lfchistory.net/seasontransfers.asp?Season_id=119
ReplyDeleteEVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS RIDICULOUS AND PETTY STAT ATTACKS.
ReplyDeleteWE CAN TALK ABOUT NET SPEND, GROSS SPEND. WHETHER 15.1 MILLION HAS BEEN ENOUGH MONEY FOR US TO CHALLENEGE. ETC ETC
THESE PETTY ARGUEMENTS DONT HELP ANYBODY OR ANYONE ESPECIALLY THE CLUB. YOU CAN MAKE STATS TO SHOW YOU WHATEVER POINT YOU WANT. SO PLEASE STOP PUBLISHING POINTLESS STATS.
WE FINSIHED 2ND AND 7TH SPENDING THOSE SUMS SO AT WHAT POINT DOES HOW MUCH MONEY HE HAD TO SPEND PER SEASON SHOW? NOTHING!!!
WE FAILED TO WIN THE TITLE NOT DUE TO LACK OF MONEY BUT DEFENSIVE TACTICS EMPLOYED BY LIVERPOOL AGAINST TEAMS IN THE LOWER HALF OF THE TABLE.
I PERSONALLY DONT BELIEVE THAT RAFA IS GOOD ENOUGH OR WILL DELIEVER WHAT EVERY FANS TRUELLY WANTS A LEAGUE TITLE. BUT UNLESS THINGS CHANGE I WILL SUPPORT MY TEAM AND MANAGER IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE.
THERE IS LITTLE LOYALTY IN FOOTBALL NOWADAYS, IF REAL MADRID HAD COME IN FOR RAFA I RECKON HE WOULD OF GONE.
TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT MAKING SENSE. WE FINSIHED 2ND AND 7TH SPENDING ON AVERAGE 15.1 MILLION A YEAR. SO WHAT DO THESE STAT PROVE? NOTHING!!
ReplyDeleteWE NEVER WON THE TITLE NOT BECAUSE OF MONEY BUT DUE TO NEGATIVELY EMPLOYED TACTICS AGINST LOWER LEAGUE TEAMS. I'D LIKE TO SEE SOMEONE PROVE MY WRONG ON THAT.
UTD WERE SPENDING VAST AMOUNT OF MILLIONS COMPARED TO US WHEN HOULLIER WAS IN CHARGE. WHY GET RID OF HIM IF ITS DOWN TO JUST MONEY!!!!!
FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN I DONT BELIEVE RAFA IS GOOD ENOUGH OR WILL EVER DELIEVER THE LEAGUE TITLE. WE WON THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE WITH HOULLIERS TEAMS NOT RAFA'S.
HOWEVER I WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT MY TEAM AND MY MANAGER THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE. WITH LOYALTY AND SUPPORT
HOWEVER IF HE FAILS TO WIN THE TITLE NEXT SEASON, HE SHOULD HAVE THE DECENCY AND WALK. OTHERWISE THE CALLS FOR HIM TO GO AND THE UNHAPPINESS ON THE KOP WILL GROW.
COME ON PEOPLE, LETS GIVE HIM AT LEAST ONE SEASON TO PROVE MANY INLCUDING MYSELF WRONG. WE SIMPLY CANT AFFORD TO REPLACE HIM UNTIL NEW OWNERS COME. IF WE SIT AND WAIT FOR NEW OWNERS, WE ARE NOT TRUE FANS.
LETS SUPPORT ALL PLAYERS AND STAFF, EXCEPT DEGGEN WHO IS PANTS!!! LOL
i think the real reason for liverpools abysmal season is down to rafa benitez. to be honest he worked wonders for this club the past 4 to 5 years, but in the 08/09 season something strange happened with benitez ... why the fuck has he treated alonso like he did, by not letting him be at the birth of his child ... how embarrasing !!! from there on i think alonso really hated him ... and of course it is understandable that he could only wanted to leave as quick as possible. it also has affected gerrard as he was a very close friend to alonso ... maybe that's why the rumour came up that gerrard don't like benitez after all .. and after alonso left, stevie was frustrated and heartbroken as he had seen him as an integral part of the team to finally win the title. poor stevie g (i really feel sorry for him) ... can't understand how anybody could slate stevie for this season .. i can not even think of a single season where he has played badly for the last 10 years except this one ... shame on you, who slate him !!! since alonsos departure benitez has lost the plot ... negative playing style, bad lineups, playing players out of position, incomprehensible subs, and so on and on ... i would go for a new manager .. be it roy hodgson, martin o'neill or anybody else ... just get one who can express his feelings, has a winning mentality and can motivate his players and believe in their abilities !!!
ReplyDeleteTHINK OF BILL SHANKLY GUYS .. WE NEED SOMEONE LIKE HIM NOW !!!
ALL FOR THE BEST OF LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB - YNWA FELLOW REDS
Gerrard!!!!!!!!!, Alonso Carragher/Hyppia, Dudek, a lot of heart, confidence and smart tactics won us that CL final. Traore, Finnan (29), Garcia (27), Riise, Kewell, Baros subs Hamman (32), Cisse, Smicer (32). You tell me Rafa took a "great" team and destroyed it? Rafa brought in Finnan at RB and moved Carra to CB. He brought in Alonso and Garcia, broken Kewell went off after what 20 mins? I cannot believe you people r saying he took a "great" team adn dismantled it. You're so busy arrogantly believing we're the only team in the world and deserve to be winning titles year upon year. Winning titles is not our divine right. Look around, there are other teams, lots of money spent, other decent managers. You a glory hunter? Become a Chelsea, City or Manure supporter and leave the true LFC supporters to support LFC.
ReplyDeleteIf possible, can you get figures for wage bills in the premiership over the past six/seven years or even longer. Transfer fees are only half of the transaction.
ReplyDeleteRafael Benitez gave an interview just three days ago advising in the time he's spent at Liverpool the Club have spent £220m on new players and re-couped £160m in sales, he went on to say the NET spend during that time was just over £10m a season.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why these figures differ so much from Jaimie's, but NO Club Official has disparaged these claims (Benitez).
Jaimie, do you think you could give it a rest with the "EXCLUSIVE" Rafa bashing now? You don't like him, we get it!
Where's this Facebook Group you promised focusing on the removal of H&G as Chairmen anyway? Are you just waiting until they sell up now?
Quite spineless if you ask me.
Wake up. It's called positive spin, and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker. Benitez said he'd also made the club 60m (!). Just because Benitez says something doesn't make it gospel. Or did you not see that he was desperately trying to defend his record?
ReplyDeleteThe club acounts contradict him, as I have illustrated in this article. No one from the club is going to publicly disagree with him, are they, even if he's wrong.
Benitez was being creative with the figures. The truth is in the club accounts.
And if you post one more thing with snide remarks like 'quite spinless', I will ban you.
If you want to start a pro- Benitez Facebook group, go and it yourself.
Hi All,
ReplyDeleteI am not a Liverpool and so have no agenda, although I always thought Rafa would only ever take your club one way.
However, I am mercilessly winding a mate up who is a Redman and have referred him to some figures I found on the web at www.transferleague.co.uk and these seem to be wildly different to your figures Jamie. They suggest a third highest net spend over the last 5 years of around 200m GBP.
Plus, I seem to recall your club producing some brilliant players via the youth set up and as far as I can make out, that set up has gone backwards under Rafa and no one with the possible exception of Warnock, has been produced since Owen...I wonder to what extent Rafa's/your club's fixation with spending has ignored the demise of the talent conveyor belt and the compounding nature of your club's current malaise.
Good luck for the season ahead and in choosing the right man for the job.
£74.1million invested in the team over 6 years... do you seriously think thats a lot of money? chelsea invested £74milion in one transfer window and all they had to show for it is Torres and Luiz.
ReplyDeleteRafa spent 74million and we got; torres Kuyt Ngog Pacheco Riera Benni Alonso Mascherano Lucas Insua Agger Skrtel Arbeloa Reina Cavalieri... Im probably missing a few out, but you get the point.