One of the persistent (and unfair) criticisms of Charlie Adam this season is the alleged 'fact' that he can't tackle, and that he's poor defensively. Lucas is widely accepted to be Liverpool's best defensive midfielder, so I've compared Adam to Lucas in a bid to show that the criticism of the Scot's defensive ability is completely unwarranted.
As you will see from the OPTA stats below, Adam is actually very good defensively, and he more than holds his own against Lucas, Liverpool's dedicated defensive midfielder.
Key points
* Contrary to popular belief, Adam is Liverpool's most successful tackler this season, with an 85% success rate.
* Adam has completed more defensive clearances than Lucas this season
* Adam has the same amount of defensive blocks as Lucas
* When it comes to defensive duels won, Adam and Lucas are practically level
* Lucas has more defensive interceptions than Adam but considering he's a defensive midfielder, you would expect that to be the case.
The biggest surprise from these stats is that Lucas' passing accuracy is superior to Adam's so far this season.
Ultimately, I'm not suggesting that Adam is a superior defensive midfielder to Lucas, I'm just illustrating that Adam is far more effective defensively than many people think.
Plus, he scores and creates goals! £8m? What a bargain.
Jaimie Kanwar
As you will see from the OPTA stats below, Adam is actually very good defensively, and he more than holds his own against Lucas, Liverpool's dedicated defensive midfielder.
Key points
* Contrary to popular belief, Adam is Liverpool's most successful tackler this season, with an 85% success rate.
* Adam has completed more defensive clearances than Lucas this season
* Adam has the same amount of defensive blocks as Lucas
* When it comes to defensive duels won, Adam and Lucas are practically level
* Lucas has more defensive interceptions than Adam but considering he's a defensive midfielder, you would expect that to be the case.
The biggest surprise from these stats is that Lucas' passing accuracy is superior to Adam's so far this season.
Ultimately, I'm not suggesting that Adam is a superior defensive midfielder to Lucas, I'm just illustrating that Adam is far more effective defensively than many people think.
Plus, he scores and creates goals! £8m? What a bargain.
Jaimie Kanwar
Stats are great...they make an argument for most things but it does nothing to expand on the situation these tackles/blocks/passes were made.
ReplyDeleteOnly by watching games can you make that judgement and on that basis, Adam is not as good defensively as Lucas
Even if I had the most in-depth stats known to man, you would probably still come back and say' yeah, but it doesn't take into account this, or this...'
ReplyDeleteAdam is very good defensively; that is indisputable.
You just wait till Henderson Carroll all come good in the 2015 season we Will wipe the floor with everyone else. by then Adam Will have settled in with downing ...Barcelona watch out
ReplyDeleteOne can do anything they wish, with statistics, to suites one's goal, can you not?
ReplyDeleteOne stat that you seem to have forgotten is the number of total tackles made from both Lucas and Adam. I am sure that Lucas has far more tackles than Adam but I wonder why you conveniently left out the numbers of the total tackles made by them?
ReplyDeletethat is just it, you cannot rely on stats alone to assess a players performance or ability.
ReplyDeleteMy OPINION is that Adam is lacking defensively as he is too slow to react. Your OPINION is the opposite. it is far from being indisputable!
Why does total number of tackles matter? Obviously, Lucas will have more because he's defensive midfielder; it's his job to tackle! Similarly, Suarez will have more shots on goal than Lucas because that's his job.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter if you make a thousand tackles if only about 30% of them are successful. It's quality, not quantity; the success rate in tackles is clearly more important than the number of tackles made.
Anyway, Lucas has made 48 tackles; Adam has made 20; as I said though, Lucas will have more tackles than anyone because that's his job.
Adam is a more effective tackler than Lucas though, that much is clear.
*sigh* It's like clockwork. Someone will always come out with one of the stats cliches. I'm just waiting for the ultimate one next. "Lies, damned lies and statistics'.
ReplyDeleteSorry, was that going to be your next comment?
Where did I say that you must only rely on stats alone. There are many peices of persuasive evidence to support various opinions, and stats are very persuasive. The club itself is very stats-based when it assesses players - if it's good enough for LFC, it's good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between my view and yours re Adam is that you don't have any objective evidence to back up your view. Just saying 'Well, I watched him play so I think he's poor defensively' doesn't cut it, especially when the objective stats prove the opposite.
Whether you like it or not, Adam is good defensively; whether he's slow or not is irrelevant to the fact that he is Liverpool's most successful tackler.
Yeah, I also can't understand where this thing comes from that Adam is shite at tackling and that he leaves the defence exposed and all that other crap.
ReplyDeleteIt does not matter how many tackles have been made. What matters is how many of those tackles have been successfull.
So there you have it, Adam has won more tackles than our defensive midfielder plus he has created and scored goals.
8mil a bargain, most definitely.
"Anyway, Lucas has made 48 tackles; Adam has made 20; as I said though,
ReplyDeleteLucas will have more tackles than anyone because that's his job.
Adam is a more effective tackler than Lucas though, that much is clear."
What is clear is that Adam picks his tackles carefully and when he tackles - then (in that fewer number than Lucas,) he is more efficient. If he'd only tackled a couple of times and had a perfect record, then by your logic, he'd be the most efficient tackler!
how many tackles ? not the % of tackles made would be better indication IMO
ReplyDeleteThe key stat that is missing here is number of tackles made, wonder if this is deliberate.
ReplyDeleteJaimie number of tackles is definitely relevant. Being a defensive player is also not just about tackles and blocks. Lucas covers more ground every time he plays and stops players from potential runs and passes. Is this article due to the fact that Adams creative influence has somewhat diminished since the article where you described him as just as influential as Gerrard
ReplyDeleteThese comparative statistics are irrelevant because some players are easier to tackle than others. Another point is that some tackles are easily won based purely on the positioning and wrong-thinking of an attacking player. All things equal, I would rather have Lucas going in on a tackle than Adam.
ReplyDeleteIf Lucas obviously has more tackles than Adam because he is a defensive player, then what excuse can be made for Adam's comparatively poor passing completion
ReplyDeleteLucas is a far superior defensive midfielder, including tackling and Adam is a better passer, bottom line
ReplyDeleteI think critisising adn writing off Charlie Adam just isn't fair. Against Manchester United he showed us what he's capable of and I'm sure he will plat better as the season goes by. For around 8 million I think he was a good buy. Regarding his set pieces, we have to keep in mind that at Blackpool he took all setpieces, corners, freekicks, penalties...at Liverpool we also saw Downing taking corners, Gerrard taking freekicks and Kuyt and Suarez taking the penalties, so it's obvious he won't be as successful as when he was at Blackpool
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't it matter? If that is the case, if Andy Carroll makes 1 tackle and he got it, doesn't that mean 100%, that means he is a good defender, right?
ReplyDeleteI think that it can't simply be compared just be percentage, to all the above that said it, the game must be watched to understand who makes the tackles and is good at it. Perhaps Adam may not even be as committed (I might be wrong, I don't recall every detail of a match) and might have to let slip certain opportunities which may have led to us conceding. I think this is more important.
but YOU pick and choose the stats to back up your argument.
ReplyDeleteyou have already admitted that lucas has put in more than twice as many tackles so the two players are not really comparable. Are you saying that if a player plays 5 games during a whole season, makes 10 tackles with a 100% success rate, he should be held in higher regard as to his tackling ability?
Yes the club use stats, but do you think it is the only thing they use?
As I said, mine is opinion, based on watching all of the games this year. im not saying adam is a bad player, but my opinion on his PERFORMANCE is that he is not as good as lucas defensively.
You have already admitted they are different players and play different positions. will that therefore not determine the type of tackle they have to make? As i said, stats make it seem very easy but how do you know that lucas would not have made 100% of the tackles had he been in the same position as adam?
Its like saying that somebody who guards the post at corners is a better blocker than a centre half. Both defenders, but both facing different levels and types of blocks
Obviously, you have to have fair sample of tackles to include in the stats. That goes without saying. Only a fool would try and argue that 1 successful tackle should be used as an indicator of tacking effectiveness.
ReplyDeleteYou and others clearly don't get what the point here. It's all relative: Lucas is a dedicated defensive mid, so he will be tackling all day long. Adam is an attacking mid, so he should not be expected to complete as many tackles as Lucas. Similarly, Lucas should not be expected to assists as many goals as Adam.
If you look at it in those terms, then Adam's stats show categorically that he is effectively defensively *for his position*.
You and others should try and be objective instead of seeing this as some kind of attack on Lucas. If you were objective, you would accept that Adam is effective defensively for Liverpool. He is certainly not poor defensively; that is totally unfounded, and anyone who argues that doesn't know what they're talking about.
Many LFC midfield players over the years have been 'slow' - Jan Molby, for example. Pace is utterly irrelevant if their performance on the pitch is up to scratch, and in Adam's case, it definitely is, offensively and defensively.
I agree, but I'm not arguing that Adam is a better defensive mid; I'm just trying to illustrate that, compared to LFC's no 1 defensive mid, Adam's defensive capability is pretty good.
ReplyDeleteComparatively poor is an exaggeration. A 6% differential is not a huge amount. Using that logic, you could say that Lucas' tackling effectiveness is comparatively poor, considering Adam's success rate is 13% higher than Lucas's.
ReplyDeleteGerrard, Henderson, Kuyt and Downing all have lower pass accuracy than Lucas - does that make their passing 'poor' too?
77% pass completion rate is not poor at all; it's very good, especially when you consider that the team's collective accuracy rate is 79%.
Adam's creative influence diminished? I think not. He still has more goals and assists than Carroll, Downing and Henderson combined.
ReplyDeleteIt's not number of tackles made, it's number of tackles *attempted*. Lucas has attempted 48 tackles this season, only 72% of which have been successful.
ReplyDeleteLucas is not in the same league as Charlie Adams.
ReplyDeleteOf course it would. And if I'd included number of tackles attempted and missed out tackling success %, you'd be arguing the opposite. These responses are so transparent. No matter what stats are included, if the result is something that the person reading doesn't agree with, then that person will try and discredit the stats by complaining about some tenuous omission.
ReplyDeleteAnd so it goes, ad infinitum.
The only time people don't complain about the stats is when they agree with them.
Adam tackles in fewer cases than Lucas because that's the nature of his position! His job is not tackle for the whole game; it's to be creative, start attacks, retain the ball, score and assist etc.
ReplyDeleteThe same goes for all creative mids. For example, Henderson, Downing et al all have much lower tackle attempts than Lucas, and the reason is obvious.
so Lucas is a better passer of the ball than Adam. context
ReplyDeleteJaime, in a comparison of someone's defensive ability, the amount of times somebody puts their foot in is definitely relevant, the same as shots count for a striker and passes for a midfielder. It's easy to play with percentages too, if a defender passes around the back line or plays it short a lot then their passes would be greater in number and their success rate would be a higher percentage, if they hoof it then they would probably have a lower percentage of success. I make this point because the more tackles that a player attempts to make the lower the success rate would be, especially if Adam tackles when obtaining the ball is easier, then say when Lucas runs 40 yards after someone and attempts a tackle, and doesn't displace them. I'm not a critic of either player, but it's obvious who the better defensive player is-that's why he plays in that position mate.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Adam had been making some penetrating through passes in Liverpool this season, whereas I can see Lucas's passing is improving. He can pass some lob some balls and play some through pass. Adam's job is to provide creativity, through passes which I don't think he had done it very well. But he can dribble on several occasions which are some extra secondary attribute we do not actually need the most from him at this moment. We need creativity and some long through balls from him and not defense quality.
ReplyDeleteThe key to being a good defensive midfielder is where you win the ball not how. Adam likes to close down high up the pitch wheres Lucas offers protection and wins crucial balls or anticipates loose balls 10 yards or so in front of the back four. In order to be of benefit these stats should have a zone that lets us know where the balls were won back. Rooney, Heskey and Alan Smith also put a lot of tackles in but not usually lifesaving ones.
ReplyDeleteI agree he is a good player who has improved season upon season. He reminds me of Molby. If he really grows as a leader and takes on board that he could be the hub of the team he could turn out to be a great player.
ReplyDeleteI don't think your stats show that at all. Your stats show that Adam attempts one tackle every 34 mins, less than three a game
ReplyDeletealonso and mecharano were better. hmm.
ReplyDeleteI am an Adam fan by the way, I think he can be an excellent player for us
ReplyDeleteGlad Johnson and Agger are starting, this should be our defence for the rest of season, obviously if all can remain fit
ReplyDeleteGlad about Agger; disappointed with Johnson at right back. Mark my words, he will make a major defensive mistake in this game, and it will probably cost us a goal.
ReplyDeleteGlad no carragher today..strongest defence ..wish kenny sticks to this defence even when everyone is fit .
ReplyDeleteShould have started with bellamy rather than Carroll . Spearing instead of Adam and Maxi instead of Henderson
I have to admit that Charlie Adam has improved all around in last few games. I think the main problem with Adams was that he was not as mobile as Lucas. he is great when he has the ball and he may tackle more that Lucas but up to recently we was not closing players down. he seemed sluggish when he didnt have the ball
ReplyDeletesorry Jamie, I just saw your comment about Johnson. it really annoys me that some fans when they take a dislike to a player ,in order to prove they are right, they hope that player makes mistakes or play badly.
ReplyDeletewell we had a clean sheet and we defended well, and most importantly Johnson did not make a mistake. it would nice for once you be a man and come apologise for wrong comment. I doubt you do it, and suspect you either delete my comment or block me.
Why don't you get this into your head: I have my opinion, you have yours. If you don't like my opinion that's tough luck.
ReplyDeleteyes we are all have different opinions. you made a comment before the game about Johnson which cleary proved wrong as he didnt make a major defensive msitake as you predicated. in that case, you were worng and in my opinion totally out of order to make a comment like that before a ball had been kicked. its not first time you have done that and you are not the first or only fan woh did that. also its great to say tough luck to disgree with you, when I know and you know how many times you have banned or deleted comment becasue cleary made you look ridiculously worng. you comments before any balls kicked was:
ReplyDeletedisappointed with Johnson at right back. Mark my words, he will make a major defensive mistake in this game, and it will probably cost us a goal. Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2011/10/revealed-proof-that-charlie-adam-is.html#ixzz1cCdd4Wdw
jaimie, i would really like you to compare suarez's defensive stats against adams if you can pleeeeeease!! statswise if he gets any closer to adams then you can easily prove that luis is as good as lucas defensively as well!! wont that be a great finding by you?? so please..........
ReplyDeleteCharlie Adam is an excellent player and we are lucky to have him, his primary role is a playmaker really, although he looks leaner this year and it is very encouraging to see that he has high successful tackle stats also
ReplyDeleteHowever, the higher the sample size, a truer picture emerges
Jay Spearing has 100% success rate in tackles this year..... from 1 tackle!!
Lucas now has 75% from 52
Charlie now has 81% from 21......... almost 2.5 times fewer tackles than Lucas
Let's revisit this when Charlie reaches 52 tackles and see what his stats are
Lucas has also conceded only 14 fouls, whereas Adam has conceded 21 fouls
Your article definitely does debunk a much repeated myth about Charlie
Another interesting fact which debunks an earlier article you wrote about Downing is that Opta stats show that he is our most creative player in terms of providing someone with an opportunity to have an effort on goal
Shot assists for Downing is now 20, Adam is now 17
Ultimately, we are highlighting how valuable Charlie Adam is to Liverpool
Also liked Andy Carrol's hunger to score when he tried to wrestle the ball off Adam for penalty, a lot of players would hide in that situation
Clearer instructions for penalty takers may be needed from management
Lucas is more disciplined and better positionally and the more effective player, simply because he is a far better athlete and covers more ground. His passing is also substantially better. If you look at the WBA match today for instance, after the hour Lucas was still proactively engaging the opposition, he went out to meet them whereas Adam's lack of stamina led to him dropping back. Check the vid, but Adam's lack of stamina is a real concern imo. We should have kept Aquilani who is simply in a different hemisphere when we are talking about attacking midfielders?
ReplyDeleteWrong, wrong, wrong etc...
ReplyDeleteAdam's lack of stamina? Perhaps it would interest you to know that today he covered more ground than any other player on the pitch (11.4km). The inaccurate myths about Adam are just ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteHis positioning is poor and he leaves Lucas out for dead at times when he tries to press when his game is not about pressing. He is doing stuff he cant do and therefore leaving the defence and Lucas open... His tackling is rash and Lucas' tackling is much better. Lucas makes much more tackles as he is, as you say, our "dedicated defensive midfielder"... We need to check the success rate, comparing how many tackles to how many won...
ReplyDeleteLets say Adam has made 50 tackles and won 85% of them...
Lucas has made 100 tackles and won 73% of them...
Lucas is the better tackler because he has made double the amount of tackles Adam has...
What in the name of fuck is a duel?
ReplyDelete'The only time people don't complain about the stats is when they agree with them'
ReplyDeleteThere you go JK, you just said it yourself, you must be one of a few. Cast a vote, and prove me wrong!.
laurel and hardy were better , adam is a good player and adds to the team lucas is,nt and does,nt henderson is a good player and played in his proper position will add to the team lucas wont downing is a good player and will get better and show this lucas wont carroll is a young player who will defo get better the more games he plays lucas wont the lad has played god knows how many games and the debate still goes on he is not good enough in fact he is not good at all and like ive said putting him in the team means a good player is left out ie maxi kuyt henderson spearing bellamy etc all lose out to lucas wrong is,nt it forget DM calling him a DM does,nt make him a requirement in the team he is not good enough and is restricting our progress
ReplyDeleteyes rohan has made the right point, you haven't mentioned the number of tackles made, the fewer tackles you make the better your chances of a higher tackles won percentage. Also while I agree with you that adam isn't as bad defensively as people make him out to be, he tires in the second half and so doesn't track back as much, this is not reflected in statistics. Do you remember how wigan hit us on the counter, can't recall that happening when lucas was playing earlier
ReplyDelete