Liverpool are back on track after another great win at Anfield. Performances are definitely improving overall but how is Roy Hodgson doing in the league compared to Rafa Benitez's first 16 games in 2004-5? Also, how do this season's results compare to results in the same games last season?
BENITEZ vs. HODGSON: First 16 League Games Comparison (Plus this season vs Last season)
ANALYSIS
* Both managers have lost the same number of games (6)
* Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 7; Hodgson 6)
* Both managers have a record of 10 games unbeaten in the first 16 league games.
* Hodgson has only 2 points less than Benitez fter 16 games, which is very good considering the massively improved quality of the opposition and [what John Henry calls] the 'plague of problems' Hodgson has had to deal with since arriving.
* Benitez has a better goal difference overall.
* Points per game is practically the same. Benitez averaged 1.5 points per game; for Hodgson it's 1.4 per game so far.
* Hodgson has achieved more clean sheets (7, vs. Benitez's 3)
* The away record is the same, with a Benitez winning 2 out of 9, and Hodgson winning 1 out of 8 (7 game differential at present).
* In his first 16 league games, Benitez's team played 12 of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Everton (finished 17th in previous season); Spurs (finished 14th in previous season), and Man City (finished 16th in previous season).
* The only real tests Benitez's team faced were against Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal, with two of the three games lost.
* In his first 16 league games, Hodgson's team has faced Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United, Man City Spurs. However, unlike 2004-5, City and Spurs are now quality teams with massively increased transfer spending ability and squads full of expensive players.
* Hodgson's team has played the likes of Bolton, West Brom, Sunderland and Stoke, but these teams are superior in quality to the lower-level sides played in 2004. Indeed, all 4 of the aforementioned teams are in the league top 10 at present, and they've all beaten superior opposition this season. The basic point here is that Hodgson has had a much harder start to contend with than Benitez did.
* Hodgson's team has also played Everton, which is always a tough game no matter what season. The game was lost, but Liverpool has lost to Everton many times in the past; losing against them is no disgrace given the passion involved in the game. Incidentally, Benitez also lost at Goodison in his first season.
* It is widely accepted that the quality of the Premier League has improved since 2004; it is also clear that the gap between the so-called smaller teams and the top 4 is closing. This was especially evident last season, with the top teams losing more games than normal on the way to the title.
* When looking at results from last, Hodgson jas now gained one more point than Benitez in the same games. Considering the context of Hodgson's reign so far, and the fact that last season, Liverpool still had Mascherano and Benayoun, this is a great result.
* This time last season, Liverpool were 13 points behind the league leaders; today, the team is only 10 points behind, which is a gain of 3 points:
* Also note the presence of Bolton and Sunderland in the top 7, which is further evidence of the Premier League's improved level of quality since 2004.
* Performances are improving with each passing game, and we've seen that in the last 3 games. The improvements are also taking place away from home, and the terrific performance at White Hart Lane recently is evidence of that.
* At present, Liverpool are only 4 points from 5th and 7 points from 4th, which is definitely within touching distance.
* The club has won 5 of the last 8 games, and is unbeaten in 6 out of 8 games league games. Only Man United have a comparable record at this stage. Is this not a positive springboard for continuing progress? With 6 and half months of the season to go, and 66 points still to play for, writing off Hodgson and this team now is just ridiculous in the extreme.
Taking everything into consideration, Hodgson is doing very well. His record is on a par with Benitez's so far, and the team has, as a matter of fact, narrowed the gap in the league (between top and current position) from last season.
I have defended Hodgson all season, and at every stage (including through the lows), I've explained in detail why. Nothing has changed - I still remain absolutely confident that Liverpool will finish in the top 4.
Jaimie Kanwar
BENITEZ vs. HODGSON: First 16 League Games Comparison (Plus this season vs Last season)
ANALYSIS
* Both managers have lost the same number of games (6)
* Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 7; Hodgson 6)
* Both managers have a record of 10 games unbeaten in the first 16 league games.
* Hodgson has only 2 points less than Benitez fter 16 games, which is very good considering the massively improved quality of the opposition and [what John Henry calls] the 'plague of problems' Hodgson has had to deal with since arriving.
* Benitez has a better goal difference overall.
* Points per game is practically the same. Benitez averaged 1.5 points per game; for Hodgson it's 1.4 per game so far.
* Hodgson has achieved more clean sheets (7, vs. Benitez's 3)
* The away record is the same, with a Benitez winning 2 out of 9, and Hodgson winning 1 out of 8 (7 game differential at present).
* In his first 16 league games, Benitez's team played 12 of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Everton (finished 17th in previous season); Spurs (finished 14th in previous season), and Man City (finished 16th in previous season).
* The only real tests Benitez's team faced were against Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal, with two of the three games lost.
* In his first 16 league games, Hodgson's team has faced Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United, Man City Spurs. However, unlike 2004-5, City and Spurs are now quality teams with massively increased transfer spending ability and squads full of expensive players.
* Hodgson's team has played the likes of Bolton, West Brom, Sunderland and Stoke, but these teams are superior in quality to the lower-level sides played in 2004. Indeed, all 4 of the aforementioned teams are in the league top 10 at present, and they've all beaten superior opposition this season. The basic point here is that Hodgson has had a much harder start to contend with than Benitez did.
* Hodgson's team has also played Everton, which is always a tough game no matter what season. The game was lost, but Liverpool has lost to Everton many times in the past; losing against them is no disgrace given the passion involved in the game. Incidentally, Benitez also lost at Goodison in his first season.
* It is widely accepted that the quality of the Premier League has improved since 2004; it is also clear that the gap between the so-called smaller teams and the top 4 is closing. This was especially evident last season, with the top teams losing more games than normal on the way to the title.
* When looking at results from last, Hodgson jas now gained one more point than Benitez in the same games. Considering the context of Hodgson's reign so far, and the fact that last season, Liverpool still had Mascherano and Benayoun, this is a great result.
* This time last season, Liverpool were 13 points behind the league leaders; today, the team is only 10 points behind, which is a gain of 3 points:
* Also note the presence of Bolton and Sunderland in the top 7, which is further evidence of the Premier League's improved level of quality since 2004.
* Performances are improving with each passing game, and we've seen that in the last 3 games. The improvements are also taking place away from home, and the terrific performance at White Hart Lane recently is evidence of that.
* At present, Liverpool are only 4 points from 5th and 7 points from 4th, which is definitely within touching distance.
* The club has won 5 of the last 8 games, and is unbeaten in 6 out of 8 games league games. Only Man United have a comparable record at this stage. Is this not a positive springboard for continuing progress? With 6 and half months of the season to go, and 66 points still to play for, writing off Hodgson and this team now is just ridiculous in the extreme.
Taking everything into consideration, Hodgson is doing very well. His record is on a par with Benitez's so far, and the team has, as a matter of fact, narrowed the gap in the league (between top and current position) from last season.
I have defended Hodgson all season, and at every stage (including through the lows), I've explained in detail why. Nothing has changed - I still remain absolutely confident that Liverpool will finish in the top 4.
Jaimie Kanwar
compare the two teams player for player and you will find roy has enherited a far stronger team than when rafa arrived. Another pointless article.
ReplyDeleteAbsolute nonsense. Why don't you illustrate how Hodgson inherited a 'far stronger team' than Benitez. When Benitez arrived, he inherited a team full of winners; a team that qualified for the CL; a team containing Gerrard, Carra, Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann, Riise, Warnock, Dudek, Kewell, Cisse, Finnan, plus useful squad players like Smicer, Sinama Pongolle, Biscan etc. That is far superior to the dross squad left by Benitez.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you find the articles here 'pointless', why bother visiting? Post that again and you'll be banned. It's simple: don't like this site? Don't visit.
In fairness to Hodgson the performances have improved of recent and his representation of the club has also improved. However I believe that this is in no small part due to the pressures put upon him by Liverpool fans. When Roy first came to the club he tried to manage the pressure by lower expectations to near zero. We weren't expected to beat Birmingham, Blackpool let alone Man U. 19 year old players got the blame for unacceptable lower league cup defeats. Star players were not defended in deference to rival managers. Players were publicly criticised and then had their international futures brought into question by their own club manager. Possibly worst of all our star players were touted to our biggest rivals as some sort of replacement for Wayne Rooney.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing that is synonymous with Liverpool FC and the city of Liverpool is pride. We can have bad periods, bad players, bad managers, but the club and the city is proud. That is the Spirit of Shankly in a nutshell. What Roy seemed to be doing is rapidly eroding that sense of pride and lowering us to a Fulhamesque level of glory. The tactics can improve, the players can improve, hell the stadium can improve, but the level of pride MUST stay at the top. That must not diminish. Maybe the one reason why Rafa earned and still has the support of many Liverpool fans, despite his well documented foibles, was because he is essentially a very proud man and we identify with that. No level of stats and figures can detach us from the sense of pride that goes arm in arm with supporting Liverpool. Almost overnight Roy set about destroying that with a plethora of ill-advised comments and substandard signings. Only a small club manager would act as though the signing of Joe Cole was the second coming.
I think that it is a similar dynamic to the Hicks & Gillett debacle (supported by some not too far away from us). If you cannot do the work to make us feel proud of our club you will have to go. If you cannot understand the alignment with this club and a sense of pride you will have to go. Hicks & Gillett never understood that and Hodgson has shown signs of this already. On the flipside, men like Houllier and Benitez, despite the terrible football that they presented us at the ends of their reigns, will always be heroes to me.
My other fear with Hodgson was his amateuristic forays into the transfer market (perhaps fuelled by his lack of pride for the club, rather than Benitez's ill-judgement). Buying the likes of Konchesky and Poulsen (two average players at the tail end of their usefulness) and then the protracted bids for Carlton Cole show a manager who doesn't really know where Liverpool want to be. Even with a lack of money we expect Liverpool managers to go for players with a future. However, now that this job of identifying players has been largely taken off his hands my trepidation of him as a manager has somewhat lessened. He will now be a coach, responsible for performances on the pitch. He won't be allowed to use his 'judgement' to bring in players that leave us as an upmarket Fulham. He may actually do well if his remit is to simply coach and get the best out of the players he has. As long as Comolli can source the brightest young talent across Europe and indeed the world then maybe Hodgson won't be that bad. I still don't believe that he has ever shown the tactical ability to be a winner at the top level, but neither does Avram Grant and he almost won the Champions League. A collection of good, young and hungry players who are well-drilled can be successful. If we take away the aspects of management that involve the acquisition of 'good', 'young' and 'hungry' players then maybe keeping Roy in a [...]
Jamie , i know this not related to the article but out of curiosity , what do think of Rinen latest comments(http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/12/08/2250575/liverpool-goalkeeper-pepe-reina-tells-team-mates-to-ignore) since you r such a critic of his , to me this only shows y his teammates and most of the anfield fathful hold him in such high regard and y his rightly justified to be critical of the club if things are not being handled right
ReplyDeleteAlso, and i quote "
On Monday, Reina, 28, eased past Ray Clemence in reaching the club's fastest century of league clean sheets in the 3-0 win over Aston Villa.
While Clemence took 217 games, the Spaniard hit 100 19 matches earlier, earning a flurry of praise from team-mates and manager alike.
In 2007 he had broken another club record previously held by Clemence.
Against Blackburn he kept his 28th shut-out in his first 50 league games - three more than Clemence. Yet Reina shrugged off the latest pat on the back and insisted his sole concern is the month ahead, which will make or break their dream of a ticket back to Europe's top table.
Reina, who also holds the Reds record for successive clean sheets - 11 achieved in 2005 - insisted: "Of course records are nice but it is down to the team-mates I've had for the last 5½ years. "
This says alot about the man who is destined to be our next captain don't you think?
They are actually 4 points from 5th
ReplyDeleteYou're right. I've updated the article. Thanks :)
ReplyDeleteHi Jamie. You have put out a few of these articles after Liverpool wins which quite obviously paints a good picture and I see nothing wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteThe unintended effect this is showing though is that Roy is failing to outdo the results that got the previous manager which is hardly a ringing endorsement of Mr Hodgson.
We do see stats differently in that a mere dismisal of a the 2 point advantage from last season is backed up by a goal difference of +10 and 12 goals more scored than now albeit at a cost of conceding 3 more goals.
The only time last season Liverpool had a negative goal difference was after losing the opening match 2-1.
Despite losing 4 matches in 10 games the goal difference was +11.
I am not sure whether you intend to show Mr Hodgson is not that bad or Rafa was bad but just not as bad as Mr Hodgson at the moment because surely the stats you have laid bare would not please even Mr Hodgson himself if he were to pass through Liverpool-kop.
Its showing that the club is worse off statistically in every aspect bar losing the same number of games and conceding 3 goals less.
This is regression rather than progression whichever way you look at it at this point in time.
The club may yet recover and finish strongly but at this point in time what these stats prove is while Rafa's time may have been up, his replacement has not been up to the task thus far. Even Newcastle a promoted side has fired a manager(wrongly in my opinion) for having a similar record to Mr Hodgson up until matchday 15.
Considering the team from last year was on a downward spiral, and the team this year is on an upward spiral, things may look better.
ReplyDeleteI'm still not convinced about the 4th place finish, but I'll wait until the last day of the season to actually comment on that part.
Would be interesting to compare the first Benitez year compared to this one no?
As for Masca and and Benayoun, not really important, because this year we have Meireles in and Lucas firing.
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<span>You have put out a few of these articles after Liverpool wins which quite obviously paints a good picture and I see nothing wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteThe unintended effect this is showing though is that Mr Hodgson is failing to outdo the results that got the previous manager dismissed which is hardly a ringing endorsement of Mr Hodgson.
We do see stats differently in that a mere dismisal of a the 2 point advantage from last season is backed up by a goal difference of +10 and 12 goals more scored than now albeit at a cost of conceding 3 more goals.
The only time last season Liverpool had a negative goal difference was after losing the opening match 2-1.
Despite losing 4 matches in 10 games the goal difference was +11.
I am not sure whether you intend to show Mr Hodgson is not that bad or Rafa was bad but just not as bad as Mr Hodgson at the moment because surely the stats you have laid bare would not please even Mr Hodgson himself if he were to pass through Liverpool-kop.
Its showing that the club is worse off statistically in every aspect bar losing the same number of games and conceding 3 goals less.
This is regression rather than progression whichever way you look at it at this point in time.
The club may yet recover and finish strongly but at this point in time what these stats prove is while Rafa's time may have been up, his replacement has not been up to the task thus far. Even Newcastle a promoted side has fired a manager(wrongly in my opinion) for having a similar record to Mr Hodgson up until matchday 15.<span>
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I visit the site to show that most of what you write is absolute bullsh!t and you will go against the majority no matter what the issue just to be controversial. Anywho when Benitez took over who was in that squad of 2004 that you convieniently left out who were in and around the first team? traore nunez josemi diao kewell letallec but putting them in would not suit your argument.Its simple compare each player and you will see the squad rafa left was far better than the one he took over.really this is very simple stuff i have to explain to you......
ReplyDeleteWell said mate, I agree with you in every aspect of your comments. Woy does not understand that you defend your players to the hilt in public and sort out any issues in house. You don't see Fergie or Wenger or J Morhino going public slagging off players or talking their club down when we go away to Spurs. The sooner this muppet leaves the better. We have no chance of attracting big name players or qualifing for the CL under this management. Woy FARK OFF MATE>
ReplyDeletePlease do not personally denigrate the manager (i.e. calling him 'Woy'). Further comments like this will be deleted. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteim sorry. how can he illustrate?
ReplyDeletedo you want him to fucking make you a painting explaining why?
why are you so defencive. You think your right, but the fact is, your full of shit. Everyone knows Benitez is a better manager. What has Roy won? lol.
Stats are all well and good and something you can't argue against. But are you actually watching the games at all? I would be alot happier having those stats if we were losing the games 4-3 and not parked on our 6 yard box.
ReplyDeleteUnder Hodgson this trend will continue and we will get our lucky wins or our wins against teams under performing. But we will never really get anywhere if his idea of sucess is playing for a draw. We are a winning club and that is the difference between Rafa and Hodgson! Rafa would give us a winning chance even if it wasn't our day, while hodgson scratches his head hoping the other team has a bad day.
Stats maybe similar, but watching the actual game is very very different!
Whatever. I think the key point is that the fans have communicated to Roy Hodgson that we aren't to be appeased with the mediocracy that he appeared to present to us of recent months. We weren't happy with it with Benitez neither. But at least by Benitez guaranteeing us 4th place, it showed a statement of intent. A statement that showed where we were supposed to be. Unfortunately Benitez's fear of change (bizarre for a man formerly known as Rafa the Rotator) led us to play with fear and caution throughout last season. Roy appeared to be continuing down that path but adding a sense of turgidity and a lack of pride to the mix. Moreso than the statistics, which are similar to Rafa's losing stats of last year anyway, it was Roy's general atmosphere of capitulation and weakness that has turned fans against him. Because since Bill Shankly sent us out on the fields of Anfield Road in all red, that psychological sense of pride and belief has been the ethos of the club. If you can't understand the magnitude of that ethos, that spirit, then you can never be one of us. Why did Michael Owen never receive the adulation that Fowler receives to this day? Simply because he left us to say he was joining the biggest club in the world. The revulsion to that statement was nothing to do with facts or figures, and everything to do with pride. It was the wrong thing to say and the fans and the city do not forget that. Until that is understood by Roy and yourself Jaimie you'll always be seen as an outsider to the club. Until you realise that simply comparing stats as the barometer of affection is not in tune with the spirit of the club you will always have detractors.
ReplyDeleteI for one refuse to engage with you on a stats level even though I recognise the work you do to compile them and do appreciate that they provide interesting comparative information. However the overriding aspect is the player/manager/owner's effect on the spirit of the club.
Hopefully the longer Roy is at the club the more he learns about the spirit of Shankly. But if he doesn't I hope the fans continue to remind him of it. Mediocracy is not an option. We are the club and although we don't have a significant say on training, team selection, media representation and transfer policy, if those areas are deemed to contradict the well established ethos and spirit of the club we WILL let it be known. And if those ultimately responsible for those areas fail to understand and integrate that ethos and spirit into their areas of remit we will request that they leave the club. That goes for Hicks, Gillett, Voronin or Hodgson. The ball is in Hodgson's court. We've expressed our concerns, hopefully he has learnt from his early errors and will keep that ethos at the heart of everything he does while representing the club.
On one hand, the majority of supporters are absolutely retarded.. like jamie says you're all apart of this rafa benitez cult you refuse to put blame on him for anything. he is just doing wonders at inter milan.. the fact is we are on the up wether or not roy is the right manager for us time will tell but it is an absolute disgrace that all of you won't even give him a chance even when he wins you always have to put a negative spin on things.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, Jamie its not about results that most supporters are so frustrated about it is roys comments in the media that affect us as a club eg when carragher got injured he says "we are not blessed with many centre halves" but that is just crap because if anything that is the one position were pretty much set with. still have kyrgiakos skrtel, agger, kelly and wilson. Also after we lost tottenham he says he would of been happy with a draw or something along those lines i don't care what team we play but how can we EVER be satisfied with a draw is beyond me.
@Jacko "we will get our lucky wins or our wins against teams under performing. "
ReplyDeletespot on mate, thats all we do: is hope the other team has an off day, anyteam that really wants to have a go at us will definately come out with 3points
Please don't ask me stupid questions. Of course I watch the games; please do not suggest otherwise. Just because I offer a statistical take on things doesn't mean I don't watch the games. The idea that statistical analysis = not watching games is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteHmm ok. Had to check. I am glad you can also see the irrelavence of your statistics from watching the games then. Seeing how poorly set up we are under Hodgson and how things were different under Rafa. Good chat!
ReplyDeleteRoy is clueless tactically for a big club. We are not Fulham - and he tried to make the players play that way - AND they still do to an extent.Have a look at the 2nd half of matches when we are in front. The team sits back and absorbs pressure upon pressure & eventually a goal comes.The reason why we are doing better now is because someone either with NESV or high up as told Roy to stop with the shite tactics and play the way Liverpool teams are meant to play and that is pass and move and pressing - THAT is why we are playing better.No matter what happens, i reckon Roy is still a dead man walking.He isnt the manager the club needs in the future.He isnt progressive enough nor tactically aware nor one to bring through youth players either.Not the man that fits into NESV's vision.
ReplyDeleteLately our team have performed better and i am starting to believe there is light at the end of the tunnel espicially after our win against villa.The team that lost away to spurs also looked in better shape compared to our earlier stages of the season,we could have won it if players took their chances in front of goals.Maybe our manager has found the right blend for the team but still have a lot to do for us to grab the champions league place from spurs and city.However with regards to the teams inherited by Benitez and Roy ,i do believe that Roy have inherited a better team than Benitez,just look at our squad and there are lot of internationals with likes of lucas,kuyt,meireles and others.The fact that we got dumped to bottom of the league at the start surely did not help roys cause to win over the anfield faithful.
ReplyDeleteI willbe hoping we will get through this busy Christmas period by getting closer to the top and again competing with our usual enemy and with the right player bought in January maybe just maybe ,we can have a team that is feared by others and can bring back the glory days at merseyside.
.....YNWA......
So you like stats do you Jaimie. Here's some for you.
ReplyDeleteTrophies under Rafa: 4
Trophies under Hodgson: 0
Win % under Rafa: 55.43%
Win % under Hodgson: 46.15%
These are irrefutable 100% facts. No more, no less.
Jaimie, the reason that Benitez is gone and oy is here is because of last season's result. So if Roy is no better or poorer, which is basically your point then Roy should also be gone by now then, agreed?
ReplyDeleteSo you are a FACT kind of guy like Rafa. The fact is our team has not move forward. The fact is Roy had brought his small team mentality to LFC, the way we play, the way we sit back, the relief he has on his face when we gained a point, as if we just won the Prem.
The majority of the players Roy inherited, played at the W.C. , so Jaimie, nothing is wrong with this squad. We SHOULD not be losing to teams such as Stoke, Birmingham, Everton. However something is definitely wrong with Roy. He should be gone by now, PERIOD.
From your table:2/9 away wins = 22.2% - Benitez ; 1/8 away wins = 12.5% - Hodgson
ReplyDelete* The away record<span> is</span> the same, with a Benitez winning 2 out of 9, and Hodgson winning 1 out of 8 (7 game differential at present). NO, the away record is not the same. Come on Jamie, stop putting a spin on the figures to suit your arguments.
From your table:2/9 away wins = 22.2% - Benitez ; 1/8 away wins = 12.5% - Hodgson
ReplyDelete* The away record<span> is</span> the same, with a Benitez winning 2 out of 9, and Hodgson winning 1 out of 8 (7 game differential at present). NO, the away record is not the same. Come on Jamie, stop putting a spin on the figures to suit your arguments.
I'm not a fan of Hodgson at all, but I have changed my opinion about moving him on, he should at least get this season. I get the feeling that someone has had a word with him, because he made some curious statements and seems to have gone back on them, for the good of the squad. Giving Babel a run out was one, I believed he had given up on the guy, but now he says he hasn't. This policy of buying young players, I wonder whether someone asked him about the young players in the squad already. Either way, I don't think our results have been too good and comparing them to a disaster of a season suggests that this season will also be a disaster. But I do have to give Hodgson some credit for giving the fringe players a chance to impress. A lot of talk about team spirit, after the Villa game, it makes you wonder whether some players feel more comfortable without our stars in the team. The fact that Hodgson has got Meireles and Lucas looking like a good combination, and got a good performance from Babel has to be a good thing for the squad. He has some interesting selections to make when Gerrard comes back. Gerrard and Lucas is a more natural combination than Gerrard and Meireles, if he wants to play all three, he will have to change the formation again and leave Torres up on his own. Again. If he plays two up front, who will be the 2nd striker? If he gets these decisions correct and they work out, then the team can get into the top 5 with the run of games that are coming up. But I think 4th place is gone already. Benitez lost his job for failing to get 4th, not sure if Hodgson can expect a 2nd season if we don't make it this time. The team has to go on a long winning run to get anywhere close to 4th, and Hodgson's away record at all his clubs is not really up to winning 5 or 6 games on the trot, he needs to find a way to sort that out quickly.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not certain the league is stronger this year, I think the World Cup has made certain teams like Bolton look better than they are but think this will start to lessen in the New Year. Teams like Blackpool in mid table does not suggest to me that the league is stronger. Although there is no doubt that City and Tottenham are a lot stronger. Although, in the past, Newcastle and Leeds were stronger and last year Villa were stronger. Having seen Hughton get the sack recently I don't think he was doing a worse job than 75% of the Premier League managers, including Hodgson. But that disgraceful sacking should not be used as a bench mark.
ReplyDeleteI find this comment interesting Jacko, as I believe Rafa was very much disliked last season for putting out teams that did not intend to win (e.g. midfield containing masch and lucas) and that is why he is sacked. On an overall note, I love Rafa for what he brought to the club, but he only challenged for the title once in 5 years (the only year he chose to let go of his "safety first" tactics). Rafa always said that we start out with one point, and that is the minimum we will end up with, hence why we never really lost that many games with him but drew and awful lot. Take a look down the road at Man U, where I hate to say it, they have the right mentality. Michael Carrick recently spoke of his first game for United (2-1 win watford away) and they were given a bollocking for not perfoming as well as they could have. That is the liverpool spirit, one we need to bring back. I hope Hodgson gets to stay until the end of the season, but we need a manager with a defined style f.eks Frank Rijkaard.
ReplyDeleteWell said Desy. The fact is pride can never be measured something an outsider like Jamie likes to do. If we follow those lines, all of us should support M.U. then, due to their success in recent years and team such as N. Forrest would have no fans by now.
ReplyDeletePeople such as Roy and Jaimie would never understand this as to them mediocrity is their ethos and just to remain where there are makes them happy.
Yes we expect success as a right because of our pride, go ask any Barca or Real fans. The same reason why Allardyce of Hodgson would never manage Barca even if they win the Prem or C.L. every other year, lack of pride and ethos.
So Roy, if you have any pride left at all, recognise the fact that you are out of your depth at LFC and leave us, now.
Jaimie, since you like Stats, the fact is that 95% fans (recent poll) wants Roy to be out says something about this this average man, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteOf course, you can always present stats the way u want Jamie ... Remember the way you counted the matches for ur previous article on Poulson. You included matches like Bolton (where he came in 89th minute to waste time) to prove your point that we are better of with poulson than without him... And we keep more clean sheets.
ReplyDeleteI know you can rewrite this article everytime we win, so are the critics going to jump on Roy after every loss. Besides if someone thinks Roy isn't doing good job... Then it does not mean they are Rafa supporters. Thank god he played babel up along with Ngog. Thank god he played babel and not Eccleston.
I hope we can reach champions league.
Hi Dj
ReplyDeleteJust to point out, Rafa was manager for 6 years, Roy has been manager for 6 months. It has not been possible for RH to win any trophies because we are only half way through the season.
Good article. I'm not sure why the Rafites are calling Roy a waste of time. Sure he does not have the experience of a big team, but Rafa did not as well. The positives for me is that we starting like a cohesive machine. Not like the old Rafa tactics of resting and replacing players...also playing them in different positions. Remember playing Johnson on left back and Mascherano at the right back with Kelly on the bench?
ReplyDeleteI prefer sensible game plan and formula to guess work.
Add two world class players to this team and we can hit 2nd place.
YNWA!
Hi Gab, Totally agree he should get the seaon..hes made big improvements which he should be commended for. Its also apparent that he has the clear backing of NESV so the whole 'sack Roy' movement seems a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI think you've made a really interesting point regarding the selection dilemnas he will face soon. Recent games have seen him experiment with two up front which definitetly has a lot of promise against many teams. Additionally, it's clear Meireles is far better used centrally than out on the right, no one can dispute that hes done a good job deputising for Stevie G.
However, when FT and SG are available (which should be very soon), which players will end up being dropped? If Roy decides to opt for two up front for some games who would be the player to partner Torres...Ngog or Babel? Lets say RH prefers the option of an attacking midfielder playing off Torres...would that be Gerrard or maybe even Cole? If he decides to utilise Cole in that position, obviously Gerrard would play more centrally, and the natural choice of midfielder to take the more defensive midfield role would be Lucas. However then there is the the quandry of what to do with Meireles. Does Roy play him out on the right, where he is less efective, and sacrifice Kuyt?
Evidently there will be some tough choices ahead for the manager. I would love to hear what other supporters think about which potential formations could work, and maybe how Roy would vary things depending on the type of team we were facing.
Hi Gab, Totally agree he should get the seaon..hes made big improvements which he should be commended for. Its also apparent that he has the clear backing of NESV so the whole 'sack Roy' movement seems a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI think you've made a really interesting point regarding the selection dilemnas he will face soon. Recent games have seen him experiment with two up front which definitetly has a lot of promise against many teams. Additionally, it's clear Meireles is far better used centrally than out on the right, no one can dispute that hes done a good job deputising for Stevie G.
However, when FT and SG are available (which should be very soon), which players will end up being dropped? If Roy decides to opt for two up front for some games who would be the player to partner Torres...Ngog or Babel? Lets say RH prefers the option of an attacking midfielder playing off Torres...would that be Gerrard or maybe even Cole? If he decides to utilise Cole in that position, obviously Gerrard would play more centrally, and the natural choice of midfielder to take the more defensive midfield role would be Lucas. However then there is the the quandry of what to do with Meireles. Does Roy play him out on the right, where he is less efective, and sacrifice Kuyt?
Evidently there will be some tough choices ahead for the manager. I would love to hear what other supporters think about which potential formations could work, and maybe how Roy would vary things depending on the type of team we were facing.
Hi Gab, Totally agree he should get the seaon..hes made big improvements for which he should be commended for. Its also apparent that he has the clear backing of NESV so the whole 'sack Roy' movement seems a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI think you've made a really interesting point regarding the selection dilemnas he will face soon. Recent games have seen him experiment with two up front which definitetly has a lot of promise against many teams. Additionally, it's clear Meireles is far better used centrally than out on the right, no one can dispute that hes done a good job deputising for Stevie G.
However, when FT and SG are available (which should be very soon), which players will end up being dropped? If Roy decides to opt for two up front for some games who would be the player to partner Torres...Ngog or Babel? Lets say RH prefers the option of an attacking midfielder playing off Torres...would that be Gerrard or maybe even Cole? If he decides to utilise Cole in that position, obviously Gerrard would play more centrally, and the natural choice of midfielder to take the more defensive midfield role would be Lucas. However then there is the the quandry of what to do with Meireles. Does Roy play him out on the right, where he is less efective, and sacrifice Kuyt?
Evidently there will be some tough choices ahead for the manager. I would love to hear what other supporters think about which potential formations could work, and maybe how Roy would vary things depending on the type of team we were facing.
Hi Gab, Totally agree he should get the season..RH has made some big improvements for which he should be commended for. Its also apparent that he has the clear backing of NESV so the whole 'sack Roy' movement seems a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI think you've made a really interesting point regarding the selection dilemnas he will face soon. Recent games have seen him experiment with two up front which definitetly has a lot of promise against many teams. Additionally, it's clear Meireles is far better used centrally than out on the right, no one can dispute that hes done a good job deputising for Stevie G.
However, when FT and SG are available (which should be very soon), which players will end up being dropped? If Roy decides to opt for two up front for some games who would be the player to partner Torres...Ngog or Babel? Lets say RH prefers the option of an attacking midfielder playing off Torres...would that be Gerrard or maybe even Cole? If he decides to utilise Cole in that position, obviously Gerrard would play more centrally, and as you suggest, the natural choice of midfielder to take the more defensive midfield role would be Lucas. However then there is the the quandry of what to do with Meireles. Does Roy play him out on the right, where he is less effective, and sacrifice Kuyt at the same time?
Evidently there will be some tough choices ahead for the manager. I would love to hear what other supporters think about which potential formations could work, and maybe how Roy could vary things depending on the type of team we were facing.
what a dull and boring life you must live! day after day you come out with a chart that paints the picture that you want it too then spout it out like it's a victory.
ReplyDeleteif this is journolism then it leaves a lot to be desired.
Quite sad.
Hi Gab, Totally agree he should get the season..RH has made some big improvements for which he should be commended. Its also apparent that he has the clear backing of NESV so the whole 'sack Roy' movement seems a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI think you've made a really interesting point regarding the selection dilemmas he will soon face. Recent games have seen him experiment with two up front which definitetly has a lot of promise against many teams. Additionally, it's clear Meireles is far better used centrally than out on the right, no one can dispute that hes done a good job deputising for the injured Stevie G.
However, when FT and SG are available (which should be very soon), which players will end up being dropped? If Roy decides to opt for two up front for some games who would be the player to partner Torres...Ngog or Babel? Lets say RH prefers the option of an attacking midfielder playing off Torres...would that be Gerrard or maybe even Cole? If he decides to utilise Cole in that position, obviously Gerrard would play more centrally, and as you suggest, the natural choice to take the defensive midfield role would be Lucas. However then there is the quandry of what to do with Meireles. Does Roy play him out on the right, where he is less effective, and as a result sacrifice Kuyt? What if Cole is pushed out to the left where does that leave Maxi or even Jova?
Evidently there will be some tough choices ahead for the manager. I would love to hear what other supporters think about which potential formations could work, and maybe how Roy could vary things depending on the type of team we were facing.
<span>Kanwar, why must you keep bringing up Rafa he's gone let it lie your boring! Also stop knocking Roy he's not going anywhere we need to back him (this is nor aimed at you Jamie). I find your treatment of Rafa as bad as some peoples treatment of Roy Jamie your a hypocrite and need to get a life and stop comparing everything to Rafa, move on!</span>
ReplyDeleteIts Another Fantasy Article, written by someone that just cant move on. I do often wonder if you have fell and banged your head and all you can see in whats left of that open space where your brain used to be is just Rafa, Rafa, Rafa, Rafa, Rafa, ohh Cloud, Rafa, Rafa, Rafa. You get the direction.
ReplyDeleteIts ANOTHER Rafa vs anyone I can compare him too after a random amount of games, like the 1st 23 games or the first 6 games, really!!!
What a shame
Now THAT, at first glance, is a fine example of a fair and balanced article & use of stats - wish you could do that all the time (recent examples have fell woefully short). There's hope yet! :) :)
ReplyDeleteAnalysis to follow once I've had my coffee ......
<span>Kanwar, why must you keep bringing up Rafa he's gone let it lie your boring! Also people need to stop knocking Roy he's not going anywhere, we need to back him. That wasn't aimed at you Jamie however I do find your treatment of Rafa as bad as some peoples treatment of Roy you come across as a hypocrite and need to stop comparing evrything to Rafa and move on.</span>
ReplyDeleteyou see i dont much fancy RH, but statically Jamie is right about RH vs RAFA...RAFA had easier matches than RH and it is proven...but saying that RH has a much stronger team than RH is not true my friend..lets remember the team that RAFA had..and it is the same team which went on to win the CL...but am not a supporter of RH and I personnally think that he should be sacked...as he is not world class and we need a world class manager...
ReplyDeleteI think these stats highlight that Hodgson is not as bad as many make out. They also highlight that there is a lot of room for improvement.
ReplyDeleteThere cannot be an exact comparison; players where different, times where different, other teams our team faced were different, outside influences were different. At the end of the day it's purely a numbers game, and after all, when winning the league, one does not necesserily remember every small detail of how it was won, merely that it was won.
"i don't care what team we play but how can we EVER be satisfied with a draw is beyond me"
ReplyDeleteComparing a draw vs a loss, I'd be satisfied with a draw. Simples :-D
Sumon
ReplyDeleteThere is no point in explaining that Roy has only been here for less than six months to someone like DJ because he is to brainless to understand the difference between 6 months and six years.
He is also comparing Rafa's win % over SIX YEARS to that of Roy's SIX MONTHS so clearly people like DJ should rather be ignored as he is clearly living in what I would call Rafa's delusional dream world...
dj.. rafa was there for 6 years! roy hasnt even been here 6 month.
ReplyDeleteChan i think you are totally wrong to describe Jaimie and Roy as men who don't understand pride. In fact, the rest of your post proves this.
ReplyDeleteYour last sentence reads:
'So Roy, if you have any pride left at all, recognise the fact that you are out of your depth at LFC and leave us, now.'Surely the mark of a proud man is the desire to succeed, despite the odds. RH has been written off all season, and yes, his first few PL games were poor. However rather than give up, he has taken it upon himself to keep fighting and get LFC up where we belong. Recent results and performances have demonstrated his improvement. To quote Jaimie:'The club has won 5 of the last 8 games, and is unbeaten in 6 out of 8 games league games. Only Man United have a comparable record at this stage.'
That is a undisputable fact. Quite simply, what more evidence do you you need that RH is a proud manager who is determined to his best for LFC? In relation to your critiscism of Jaimie. You mention that he is an outsider, I'm infering that by that comment you mean he is not a true LFC fan. How then would you explain the massive amount of effort that JK has put into this site for the last few years, writing articles, responding to quotes, all voluntarily without pay ? One of your statements regarding Jaimie and RH reads: 'mediocrity is their ethos and just to remain where there are makes them happy'
You have absolutely no evidence for saying that. Jaimie has continuously talked about his confidence regarding LFC reaching 4th place. In fact he mentions it in this very article:' I still remain absolutely confident that Liverpool will finish in the top 4'
Lets be frank, this doesn't sound like something a LFC fan mired in mediocrity would say! You talk about the concept of pride, and say Jaimie doesnt understand it. I would argue JK has demsonstrated considerable pride in supporting the club he loves, by supporting the manager that the owner and players have whole heartedly endorsed. The reality is when the manager and players are keen to get behind the manager, your support of the manager is by definition support for the club. After all, when Roy succeeds, so do LFC!
Chan i think you are totally wrong to describe Jaimie and Roy as men who don't understand pride. In fact, the rest of your post proves this.
ReplyDeleteYour last sentence reads:
'So Roy, if you have any pride left at all, recognise the fact that you are out of your depth at LFC and leave us, now.'Surely the mark of a proud man is the desire to succeed, despite the odds. RH has been written off all season, and yes, his first few PL games were poor. However rather than give up, he has taken it upon himself to keep fighting and get LFC up to where we belong. Recent results and performances have demonstrated his improvement. To quote Jaimie:'The club has won 5 of the last 8 games, and is unbeaten in 6 out of 8 games league games. Only Man United have a comparable record at this stage.'
That is a undisputable fact. Quite simply, what more evidence do you you need that RH is a proud manager who is determined to do his best for LFC? In relation to your critiscism of Jaimie. You mention that he is an outsider, I'm infering that by that comment you mean he is not a true LFC fan. How then would you explain the massive amount of effort that JK has put into this site for the last few years, writing articles, responding to quotes, all voluntarily without pay? One of your statements regarding Jaimie and RH reads: 'mediocrity is their ethos and just to remain where there are makes them happy'
You have absolutely no evidence for saying that. Jaimie has continuously talked about his confidence regarding LFC reaching 4th place. In fact he mentions it in this very article:'I still remain absolutely confident that Liverpool will finish in the top 4'
Lets be frank, this doesn't sound like something a LFC fan mired in mediocrity would say! You discuss the concept of pride, and say Jaimie doesnt understand it. I would argue he has demonstrated considerable pride in the way he follows the club he loves, by supporting the manager that the owner and players have whole heartedly endorsed. The reality is when the manager and players are keen to get behind the manager, the fans support of the manager is by definition support for the club. After all, when Roy succeeds, so do LFC!
Jammie, similarly, please do not personally denegrate Pepé or charges of hypocracy can me rightly layed at your door. Thanks in advance of your apology to Pepé.
ReplyDeleteChan i think you are totally wrong to describe Jaimie and Roy as men who don't understand pride. In fact, the rest of your post proves this.
ReplyDeleteYour last sentence reads:
'So Roy, if you have any pride left at all, recognise the fact that you are out of your depth at LFC and leave us, now.'
Surely the mark of a proud man is the desire to succeed, despite the odds. RH has been written off all season, and yes, his first few PL games were poor. However rather than give up, he has taken it upon himself to keep fighting and get LFC up to where we belong. Recent results and performances have demonstrated his improvement. To quote Jaimie:
'The club has won 5 of the last 8 games, and is unbeaten in 6 out of 8 games league games. Only Man United have a comparable record at this stage.'
That is a undisputable fact. Quite simply, what more evidence do you you need that RH is a proud manager who is determined to do his best for LFC? In relation to your critiscism of Jaimie. You mention that he is an outsider, I'm infering that by that comment you mean he is not a true LFC fan. How then would you explain the massive amount of effort that JK has put into this site for the last few years, writing articles, responding to quotes, all voluntarily without pay? One of your statements regarding Jaimie and RH reads: 'mediocrity is their ethos and just to remain where there are makes them happy'
You have absolutely no evidence for saying that. Jaimie has continuously talked about his confidence regarding LFC reaching 4th place. In fact he mentions it in this very article:'I still remain absolutely confident that Liverpool will finish in the top 4'
Lets be frank, this doesn't sound like something a LFC fan mired in mediocrity would say! You discuss the concept of pride, and say Jaimie doesnt understand it. I would argue he has demonstrated considerable pride in the way he follows the club he loves, by backing the manager that the owner and players have whole heartedly endorsed. The reality is when the manager and players are keen to get behind the manager, the fans support of RH is by definition support for the club. After all, when Roy succeeds, so do LFC!
<chuckle> A prime example of the selective use of stats in an amusing way <chuckle> :-D </chuckle></chuckle>
ReplyDeleteLOL :-D
ReplyDelete"Yes we expect success as a right because of our pride"
ReplyDeleteDo you expect to win the lottery because you bought a ticket. Muppet.
I find it very interesting that you use the phrase '<span>Both managers have a similar number of wins overall (Benitez 7; Hodgson 6)' when in actual fact, Benitez has more wins than Hodgson does, it may only be one, but it IS more. I think that you cannot play down the fact that Benitez had to learn what the English game was when he first arrived but Hodgson has managed in this country for a few years now before taking over. I suppose you could argue that Hodgson has not really had to deal with the expectation of a big club like Liverpool before but then he has managed Inter Milan. In all honesty Jaimie, I think that you actually need to look at the season that we had under Rafa when we finished second. 25 wins from 38 games, 11 wins in the first 16 games, 1 defeat, 4 draws. Ultimately, Liverpool need to be up there challenging for the league title and if Hodgson wants to do that, he needs to learn to win away from home. 1 win from 8 games with 5 defeats is not good enough and to give credit to Benitez, after that first season and until it all went wrong last season, we actually had a pretty good away record once he learnt how to set teams up. Hodgson, for his time in England, does not seem to have learnt how to set up a team away from home. Saying that, there was a massive improvement at Spurs in a game that we should have won so fingers crossed for Newcastle this weekend. Hopefully in time, we will be comparing Hodgsons record to that of Benitez and Houllier when we finished second, I would rather be comparing our manager though to Bob Paisley in terms of the number of league wins....</span>
ReplyDeleteThere are games this season that we should not have won (likewise there are games we should not have lost), but against West Brom and Bolton, we were fortunate to come away with 3 points , and I think that Liverpool fans are still sceptical about our ability to put teams away. We should have buried Villa under an avalanche of goals having gone 3-0 up on Monday but you did feel that had Villa got one, they may have got back into the game. Hodgson needs to eradicate that uneasiness which he can only do by confidence in the players and winning more games. Our next 9 games in the league are very very winnable and we need to see how we do.
Finally, I know that you like using stats to back up your arguments but stats can be deceptive also so I will highlight why you have to be careful with them. On Monday night, having beaten Aston Villa 3-0, do you know what possession percentage we had according to Andy Gray after the game? 40%. And we won the game 3-0. Now if you had looked at that stat after the game and not known the score, you would probably have guessed that Villa at least got something out the game and probably won it.
Thanks for the in depth analysis Jamie. What you've failed to point out is that LFC fell short of Champions League qualifcation, in terms of a league table position in 2005 under Benitez. As you highlighted in a previous article Roy's main objective is to qualify for Champions League. On current form I don't see how that's possible. I'm certain that we'd be in agreement that RH is not a long term solution for LFC. Which leaves me somewhat indifferent as to whether RH is sacked this season or not. As a loyal LFC supporter I believe the Manager deserves our support but I also side with the fans that need to endure what seems to be a rather pointless appointment and season other than its moderate stabilising effect.
ReplyDeleteThis is an appeal to the Liverpool supporters calling for Roys head from a, currently, very depressed Newcastle fan.
ReplyDeleteYou are looking to shoot yourselves in the foot, we've just had our manager dismissed, despite some good results and higher than expected league position, and are probably looking to, at best, struggle to avoid relegation (again) this seaon. Changing the manager mid season should never be anything more than an emergancy fix and Liverpool are no-where near an emergency state. Please don't look to go down the route of misery and failure Newcastle are almost certainly headed down now, for the love of god.
Yes, it says 95% of fans are clueless, zombified sheep idiots.
ReplyDeleteChrisE - It's a deal we'll swap him for a bit of that fog of yours.
ReplyDelete- Last season Liverpool didn't have too bad a start. It was only once the injuries kicked in that Liverpool started to drop from 3rd to 7th. And the season before they stayed between 1st and 3rd all season, which is where they would be now with a decent manager and without the injuries.
ReplyDelete- Roy is only just seeing the kind of injuries/absences that Rafa had last season, but still not to the same level. In this period his team has been down between 8th and 19th. Not only that but the form is EXACTLY the same as Fulham's last season. It could have even been the same as Blackburn's in 1998, but for us getting a lucky win at Bolton and then facing Chelsea in their worst fun of form for 20 years. And we'd be in 12th were it for not facing Villa in their worst run of form for 20 years.
- In all the seasons, Liverpool in the last 2, Fulham last season and Blackburn in 1998, where they were in November they ended up being in May. Don't confuse climbing from 19th to 8th in a matter of weeks as an assault on the top 4, it is simply Roy catching up after a dreadful start. We will finish between 7th and 11th, most likely 9th. The only way we will finish any higher is if Roy starts winning MORE than 1.4 points a game, and the only way he can do that is by winning more than 1 away game in 10, and he's NEVER been able to do that in 34 years of management. Rafa on the other hand, has proven he can win over 2 pts a game, and win the MAJORITY of his away games, facts that you have conveniently left out of you analysis. As usual.
I agree with John - obviously a draw is prefereble to a defeat. Anyway, I don't think I said we should be satisfied with draws anyway...
ReplyDeletePoulsen took part in the Bolton win so that counts as an appearance whether you like it or not. Just because it's only a couple of minutes is irrelevant. The Official LFC site counts it as an appearance, so that's good enough for me. You can't just remove appearances because the player only had limited pitch time.
ReplyDeleteI bet if Poulsen came into a game with 5 minutes to go and the opposition scored a winning goal you'd be singing a different tune; you be blaming Poulsen, and if I removed that game because of lack of pitch time people would be in an uproar.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteThe problem is getting rid of managers who deserve time. Hughton probably deserved more, however there is no evidence that he has ever done any better than this. Newcastle always make this mistake, especially so with Dalglish.
Liverpool on the other hand have never had to dispense with a manager, especially not mid-season....until NOW. Hughton made Newcastle better. Woy has made us worse. Woy has never done any better than this in England. Simple.
What should have happened is LIVERPOOL, FOR ONCE, TAKEN A LEAF OUT OF NEWCASTLE'S BOOK AND VICE VERSA. Unfortunately we are both stuck with Chairman who know very little about football and a lot about business. Ruthless business.
Chan - you are shallow, kneejerk 'fan' and I am glad that I and (in my experience) the majroty of LFC fans do not think like you. In fact, your post is so pointless and inaccurate there's no point responding to it.
ReplyDeleteHey Sumon - thanks for making those points. Much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have put it better myself :)
ReplyDeleteI love the way people are going around trying to convince everyone that '95%' of fans want Hodgson out. The total number of people who took part in the various polls is probably less than 10,000; to describe that as 95% of the total fanbase is just laughable. Internet polls are not representative of the total fanbase.
"Poulsen took part in the Bolton win so that counts as an appearance whether you like it or not. Just because it's only a couple of minutes is irrelevant."
ReplyDeleteIt's not irrelevant no matter how many times you say it. 2 mins on the pitch vs 90 mins on the pitch is very VERY different.
What matters is what a player does when he is on the pitch. "Appearence" is irrelevent, how much CONTRIBUTION is EVERYTHING. :-D
There is no point in explaining that X has only been on the pitch for 2 mins to someone like <insert> because he is to brainless to understand the difference between 2 minutes and 90 minutes.
ReplyDeletedum-de-dum-de-dum-de-dum ;) </insert>
You completely miss the point. Last season was atrocious, and the fallout from that takes TIME to rectify. Confidence and motivatio was crushed by a mixture of Benitez and last season's results. Then we had the ownership fiasco and endless off-field distraction. A manager cannot just walk into a club afflicted by a 'plague of problems' (as John Henry called it), and just turn things around in a few months.
ReplyDeleteAny fair-minded fan accepts this; you ignore it because you are not fair-minded.
It is plainly obvious to see that since the new owners took over on 15 October, things have improved steadily (with a couple of bumps along the way).
Talk about deluded. Why don't you produce a statistical analysis of the two squads Jaimie? Because not even you can actually spin the facts that much. The squad Rafa inherited were a 60 points generating UEFA Cup team, that had just nicked a CL spot. The squad Roy inherited was a 75 points generating CL team that had just had a bad season and missed out on the CL for once.
ReplyDeleteNo probs Jaimie.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't impressed with Chan's post, and I'm fed up with this fabled '95% want Hodgson out' figure thats been banded around. Its an insult to LFC supporters.
I've met a considerable amount of fans watching games this season, and through twitter. The amount who want Hodgson out, especially recently is far less than 95%.
I'm not denying there were a fair few grumbles, especially earlier in the season. However most fans I've met understand the tumultuos nature of Roy's first few games as manger, and are thrilled to see things starting to improve now that the ownership issues of LFC have been positively resolved.
Admittedly my evidence is an anecdotal not statistical, but the vibe I'm getting off LFC fans both here and abroad definitely doesn't match with the huge feeling of dissatisfaction that the 95% figure would seem to suggest.
Whats the point of this article? Is it to prove Hodgson is a better manager that Benitez?
ReplyDeleteIf so then a brief look at both managers career stats will quickly give u hte answer
............Because you say so. That is a poll of 1 which is 10,000 times less powerful!
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that there are several independent polls, all reaching the same conclusion independently. The sample sizes are more than adequate. A good way of validating them is seeing the trend (something which you never seem to do). The polls were originally running at about 70% (which was basically the proportion of people who were underwhelmed by his appointment) and then grew as Roy declined our team to the 95% you see today. So is it not too hard to see that has been a 30% increase in the number of fans not backing him given our woeful season? Can you not imagine how 75% of the fans who listened to him when he asked for 10 games started to turn on him when after 10 games it was still dreadful?
Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. The team was not on a downward spiral last season, it had a bad season due to temporal factors, the same ones that affect Utd and Chelsea and everyone else. Only by appointing Roy has the team been able to perform even worse without those factors involved. The downward spiral.....sorry DROP....HAS BECOME BECAUSE OF ROY.
ReplyDeleteInheriting a squad how strong doesn't matter, it's how that squad is managed that matters, otherwise houllier could have won the champions league too.
ReplyDeleteAre the stats incorrect? Why is perspective important in this scenario but not in others? Please dispute my stats, are they incorrect?
ReplyDeleteWhat I have posted is IRREFUTABLE proof that Rafa has MORE trophies and a BETTER win percentage. You can research it yourself. I haven't lied, these are 100% FACTS.
Are the stats incorrect? Why is perspective important in this scenario but not in others? Please dispute my stats, are they incorrect?
ReplyDeleteWhat I have posted is IRREFUTABLE proof that Rafa has MORE trophies and a BETTER win percentage. You can research it yourself. I haven't lied, these are 100% FACTS.
John seemed to get it with his "A prime example of the selective use of stats in an amusing way" comment.
Are the stats incorrect? Why is perspective important in this scenario but not in others? Please dispute my stats, are they incorrect?
ReplyDeleteWhat I have posted is IRREFUTABLE proof that Rafa has MORE trophies and a BETTER win percentage. You can research it yourself. I haven't lied, these are 100% FACTS.
PS: John seemed to get it with his "A prime example of the selective use of stats in an amusing way" comment.
I think people maybe wrongly assuming that since the the team Rafa took over went on to win the Champions league it automatically means it was stronger than now.
ReplyDeleteWould the same be said of the present team if it goes on and finishes higher than 7th of last season or 3rd which would be higher than 4th in Houlier's last season.
John above makes a lot of sense when he states times are different hence the dynamics are also very different. while the article states City and Spurs were weaker in the season before Rafa, that may point to why we managed 4th but in Rafa's first season both teams had improved to finish equal only 6 points behind Liverpool.
Bolton a weak team in recent seasons till now also managed to finish equal on 58 points with Liverpool in Rafa's first season while Middlesborough finished on 55 points hence in that particular season those two teams had their best seasons to date and do not count as weak teams.
Everton on the oher hand performed strongly in Rafa'ss first season while they are struggling this season which in a way puts off any direct comparison of results against particular teams rather than their relative perfomances in the years being compared.
The only way to effectively use this argument would be admittedly a very difficult exercise because it involves analysing every team and their respective performances in the 2 different eras.
This addresses the issue of concluding that Middlesbrough was a team to beat given its now in the Championship when it was in fact having a great season back then. Bolton perennial relegation battlers qualified for Europe in 2004-05 equal on points with a supposedly superior Liverpool who had just won the Champions League.
My over-riding viewpoint is not to compare who is a better manager but I compare what I want Liverpool to achieve and what is happening on the pitch.
Most people would admit that last season was very poor because we were not matching expectations rather than say go back to 1998-99 and say we did ok given we finished in the same position.
I am sure the present incumbent will get his dues if he is in the job long enough to achieve your projected 4th place but in so doing it if we were to use your theory it would mean he took over a team as strong as the 2003-04 team because that finished 4th.
Another way to look at it would be Mr Hodgson needs to finish 5th and win the Europa League title to have a comparable first season in charge.
It's going to be very interesting come Saturday. Personally I'd leave Cole on the bench and give Babel another run out, he has really impressed the past couple of games and deserves another start.
ReplyDeletewith regards the injuries, I underdstand that we've now got a working relationship with the Uni's sports science team to specifically look at reducing the number of injuries we've experienced (particularly muscle strain type injuries) hopefully this improve our injury record and ensure as many first teamers are fit as much as possible.
ReplyDeleteIf we continue the form we've shown over the last 8 league games (winning 5) I can't see why an 'assualt on the top 4' is not possible.
YNWA
I think you miss the fact that Liverpool were at this stage last year 2 points better off, not 1 point worse off, as you suggest in the article. Also last year the goal difference was a lot better, in fact 10 times better.
ReplyDeletePlus we scored a lot more goals which i personally think is the whole point of football, that is after all why we all watch?
How can you bash Rafa for having a poor season while at this point in time, this season is worse???
And how people dare say the 2004 team is better than the 2010 team is beyond me.
Dudek vs Reina --> Reina
Finnan vs Johnson --> Johnson
Carra 04 vs Carra 10 --> tough one, i would say equal
Hyypia vs Skrtel --> Hyypia
Riise vs Insua --> Riise
Smicer vs Kuyt --> Kuyt
Hamman --> Masha --> tough one again, Masha
Gerrard 04 vs Gerrard 10 --> Gerrard 10
Kewell vs Maxi --> Maxi
Barros vs Aqua --> Aqua
Cisse vs Torres --> Torres
Kirkland vs Cavliari --> Kirkland
Henchoz vs Soto --> Soto
Cheyrou vs Lucas --> Lucas
Murphy vs Jova --> Murphy
Traore vs Aurelio --> Aurelio
Biscan vs Agger --> Agger
Pongolle vs Babel --> Babel
To my count that is 13 to 4 in Rafa's squad favour.
Hodgson is currently on a par with Rafa's first year, but we didn't qualify for Champion's League from our league position that year so that doesn't bode so well
ReplyDeleteWe are fortunate that the teams at the top are bunched due to poor form overall, we are, as Jaimie highlights, only 10 points off the top
We have a good run of games coming up and with Torres bouyant with the joys of a new baby and Stevie G returning we could really climb the table
As an aside, an interesting, yet controversial and website hit-boosting, comparison would be Liverpool spending v Chelsea spending in summer 2004 onwards given their relatively equal footing at the end of 2004, and both with new, successful foreign managers coming into the club
Hi Simon - I've already posted something about Chelsea v Liverpool spending for that time period:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/06/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-chelsea.html
* In his first 16 league games, Benitez's team played 12 of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Everton (finished 17th in previous season); Spurs (finished 14th in previous season), and Man City (finished 16th in previous season).Not really sure how you can use this argument.Firstly in 2003/04, Fulham finished 7th, Bolton finished 8th, Charlton finished 9th and Birmingham finished 10th so how are they among the "poorest teams in league". Is it any different to playing Everton (8th last season), Birmingham(9th last season) and Blackburn (10th last season) this season. Not really, we've played the 8th, 9th and 10th best teams in the country according to last season's league. Just as we played the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th best teams according to the league table of 2003/04. Different teams but same league positions.In Rafa's first 16 games in his first season we played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league the previous season - Midds(11th), Spurs(14th), Blackbirn(15th), Man City(16th), Everton (17th). And 7 from top half and 3 newly promoted teams. Against the teams from the bottom half and the newly promoted teams, in Rafa's first season we did not lose to any of them. 6 wins and 2 draws (20 points out of a possible 24), scoring 14 goal and conceding 9(+6GD)So far this season we have also played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league last season - Stoke (11th), Sunderland(13th), Bolton(14th), Wigan(16th), West Ham(17th). And 8 teams from the top half and 2 newly promted team. Against the bottom half of the league and new promoted teams our results have been significantly worse this season 3 wins, 2 draws and 2 losses (11 points out of a possible 21), scoring 8 goals and conceding 7 (+1GD).The mistake you have made is comparing teams rather than league positions. There is no doubt that Spurs and Man City are better teams now than they were in 2004. In 03/04 they finished 14th and 16th respectively. As we all know the league table doesn't lie - at the time they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. This season we have played Bolton and Wigan who finished 14th and 16th last season- again last season they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. The fact that it is Bolton and Wigan and not Man City and Spurs who are historically "bigger" clubs makes no difference, the fact is that we have played the 14th and 16th best clubs in the previous season. It's a very confused article in my opinion. For example,Hodgson's team has played the likes of Bolton, West Brom, Sunderland and Stoke, but these teams are superior in quality to the lower-level sides played in 2004. Says who? Bolton finished 14th last season but 8th in 2003/04. Which Bolton team, statistically speaking, is the better Bolton team? The one that finished 8th or the one that finished 14th? Is the Bolton team of this season better than the Spurs teams of 2004 (both finished 14th in previous seasons). There's absolutely no way of telling. The only comparable stats you have are that they both finished 14th.
ReplyDelete* In his first 16 league games, Benitez's team played 12 of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Everton (finished 17th in previous season); Spurs (finished 14th in previous season), and Man City (finished 16th in previous season).Not really sure how you can use this argument.Firstly in 2003/04, Fulham finished 7th, Bolton finished 8th, Charlton finished 9th and Birmingham finished 10th so how are they among the "poorest teams in league". Is it any different to playing Everton (8th last season), Birmingham(9th last season) and Blackburn (10th last season) this season. Not really, we've played the 8th, 9th and 10th best teams in the country according to last season's league. Just as we played the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th best teams according to the league table of 2003/04. Different teams but same league positions.In Rafa's first 16 games in his first season we played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league the previous season - Midds(11th), Spurs(14th), Blackbirn(15th), Man City(16th), Everton (17th). And 7 from top half and 3 newly promoted teams. Against the teams from the bottom half and the newly promoted teams, in Rafa's first season we did not lose to any of them. 6 wins and 2 draws (20 points out of a possible 24), scoring 14 goal and conceding 9(+6GD)So far this season we have also played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league last season - Stoke (11th), Sunderland(13th), Bolton(14th), Wigan(16th), West Ham(17th). And 8 teams from the top half and 2 newly promted team. Against the bottom half of the league and new promoted teams our results have been significantly worse this season 3 wins, 2 draws and 2 losses (11 points out of a possible 21), scoring 8 goals and conceding 7 (+1GD).The mistake you have made is comparing teams rather than league positions. There is no doubt that Spurs and Man City are better teams now than they were in 2004. In 03/04 they finished 14th and 16th respectively. As we all know the league table doesn't lie - at the time they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. This season we have played Bolton and Wigan who finished 14th and 16th last season- again last season they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. The fact that it is Bolton and Wigan and not Man City and Spurs who are historically "bigger" clubs makes no difference, the fact is that we have played the 14th and 16th best clubs in the previous season. It's a very confused article in my opinion. For example,Hodgson's team has played the likes of Bolton, West Brom, Sunderland and Stoke, but these teams are superior in quality to the lower-level sides played in 2004. Says who? Bolton finished 14th last season but 8th in 2003/04. Which Bolton team, statistically speaking, is the better Bolton team? The one that finished 8th or the one that finished 14th? Is the Bolton team of this season better than the Spurs teams of 2004 (both finished 14th in previous seasons). There's absolutely no way of telling. The only comparable stats you have are that they both finished 14th.
ReplyDelete* In his first 16 league games, Benitez's team played 12 of the poorest and/or newly promoted teams in the league: Bolton, West Brom, Norwich, Fulham, Charlton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Everton (finished 17th in previous season); Spurs (finished 14th in previous season), and Man City (finished 16th in previous season).Not really sure how you can use this argument.Firstly in 2003/04, Fulham finished 7th, Bolton finished 8th, Charlton finished 9th and Birmingham finished 10th so how are they among the "poorest teams in league". Is it any different to playing Everton (8th last season), Birmingham(9th last season) and Blackburn (10th last season) this season. Not really, we've played the 8th, 9th and 10th best teams in the country according to last season's league. Just as we played the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th best teams according to the league table of 2003/04. Different teams but same league positions.In Rafa's first 16 games in his first season we played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league the previous season - Midds(11th), Spurs(14th), Blackbirn(15th), Man City(16th), Everton (17th). And 7 from top half and 3 newly promoted teams. Against the teams from the bottom half and the newly promoted teams, in Rafa's first season we did not lose to any of them. 6 wins and 2 draws (20 points out of a possible 24), scoring 14 goal and conceding 9(+6GD)So far this season we have also played 5 teams who finished in the bottom half of the league last season - Stoke (11th), Sunderland(13th), Bolton(14th), Wigan(16th), West Ham(17th). And 8 teams from the top half and 2 newly promted team. Against the bottom half of the league and new promoted teams our results have been significantly worse this season 3 wins, 2 draws and 2 losses (11 points out of a possible 21), scoring 8 goals and conceding 7 (+1GD).The mistake you have made is comparing teams rather than league positions. There is no doubt that Spurs and Man City are better teams now than they were in 2004. In 03/04 they finished 14th and 16th respectively. As we all know the league table doesn't lie - at the time they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. This season we have played Bolton and Wigan who finished 14th and 16th last season- again last season they were the 14th and 16th best teams in the league. The fact that it is Bolton and Wigan and not Man City and Spurs who are historically "bigger" clubs makes no difference, the fact is that we have played the 14th and 16th best clubs in the previous season. It's a very confused article in my opinion. For example,Hodgson's team has played the likes of Bolton, West Brom, Sunderland and Stoke, but these teams are superior in quality to the lower-level sides played in 2004. Says who? Bolton finished 14th last season but 8th in 2003/04. Which Bolton team, statistically speaking, is the better Bolton team? The one that finished 8th or the one that finished 14th? Is the Bolton team of this season better than the Spurs teams of 2004 (both finished 14th in previous seasons). There's absolutely no way of telling. The only comparable stats you have are that they both finished 14th.
ReplyDeleteIt is alarming how you continue to feel that Houllier left a better squad than Rafa!! Here's how I see it:
ReplyDelete<span>Reina vs Dudek (Reina 1-0)
Johnson vs Finnan (Draw)
Insua vs Riise (Riise 1-1)
Carra
Agger vs Hyppia (Draw)
Kuyt vs Smicer (Kuyt 2-1)
Masch vs Hamann (Masch 3-1)
Gerrard
Lucas vs Kewell (Lucas 4-1)
Benayoun vs Baros (Draw)
Torres vs Cisse (Torres 5-1)</span>
<span>Cavalieri vs Kirkland (Draw)
Skrtel vs Traore (Skrtel 1-0)
Maxi vs Biscan (Draw)
Ngog vs Sinama-Pongolle (Draw)
Aurelio vs Le Tallec (Draw)
Aqua vs Cheyrou (Aqua 2-0)
Kelly vs Henchoz (Draw)</span>
So a total of 7-1 in Rafa's favour, and that's being generous to Houllier I think. How do you see the direct comparisons?
<span>It is alarming how you continue to feel that Houllier left a better squad than Rafa!! Here's how I see it:
ReplyDelete<span>Reina vs Dudek (Reina 1-0)
Johnson vs Finnan (Draw)
Insua vs Riise (Riise 1-1)
Carra
Agger vs Hyppia (Draw)
Kuyt vs Smicer (Kuyt 2-1)
Masch vs Hamann (Masch 3-1)
Gerrard
Lucas vs Kewell (Lucas 4-1)
Benayoun vs Baros (Draw)
Torres vs Cisse (Torres 5-1)</span>
<span>Cavalieri vs Kirkland (Draw)
Skrtel vs Traore (Skrtel 6-1)
Maxi vs Biscan (Draw)
Ngog vs Sinama-Pongolle (Draw)
Aurelio vs Le Tallec (Draw)
Aqua vs Cheyrou (Aqua 7-1)
Kelly vs Henchoz (Draw)</span>
So a total of 7-1 in Rafa's favour, and that's being generous to Houllier I think. How do you see the direct comparisons?</span>
Hyypia and Agger a draw?! And what exactly has Agger done for LFC compared to Hyypia?! That kind of decision displays how your view is skewed. Hyppia is an all time great at LFC, and has proven to be a superior defender over a long period of time.
ReplyDeleteAs for direct comparisons: some of your choices are blatantly incorrect. Lucas vs. Kewell?! Lucas is a DM; Kewell was an attacking player. Maxi vs. Biscan? Same again. Aurelio vs. Le Tallec?! Aurelio - defender. Le Tallec - Attacker. If you're going to do a comparison use like for like, and don't selectively choose who you include.
Dudek v Reina
Henchoz v Skrtel
Finnan v Johnson
Hyypia v Agger
Baros v Ngog
Cisse v Maxi
Kewell v Kuyt
Owen v Torres
Hamann v Mascherano
Riise v Insua
Murphy v Aquilani
Smicer v Riera
Biscan v Lucas
Kirkland v Cavalier
Traore v Aurelio
Pongolle v Voronin
Le Tallec v Benayoun
Diouf v Babel: draw
Cheyrou v Plessis
Houllier: 13
Benitez: 5
it s clear that in regard looking into the stats, you first look what you want to get out of those stats.
ReplyDeletefor instance, if you want to prove Poulson is a good player , then you look inot stats how to get to your point. I dont see that as objective but subjective research.
in regard to Benitez agaisnt Hodgson, if you compare Hodgson 35 YEARS managerial record to Benitiez less say 20 years managerial record, you notice that you comparing a shoda to BMW.
I really struggle to find any significant throphy in Hodgson years of management.
comparing the worse year of Benitez to Hodgson s season so far is really will prove that you have very little understanding how to do any research on issue or you are bias. Benitez record in liverpool last year was bad but he had pretty good winning stats beofre last year.
Benitez last year had many problems with injuries and lack of form and the loss of Alonso was a great shock to the team. the last of support from the club and press was always agaisnt him too. Hodgson has had problems with injuries as well but not the extend Rafa had and many of players like Ngogo and Lucas were trained in previous years and were due to do better season.
dont get me worng I ma over the moon with Liverpool wins and form and Hodgson has to take some credit for that but I still bleeive your comaprison does not prove anything to those who want ot have a rational judgment on those tow managers.
this post has not broken any of your policy and I hope it will bnot get delelted like the previous ones. but if it did, it will confirm to me what I always knew about you.
thanks
Ok thanks, remember that article now
ReplyDeleteNot really in the humour to revisit that topic at the moment...........
Jaimie- Good read, recent performances are encouraging, I think there is a certain heir of acceptance spreading, atleast for this season.
ReplyDeleteAll I would add is that it is true the qualityof the pl has increased since 04/05, but I would put our squad in that category too, obviously Spurs and Man Citys improvement has been greater, but in comparison to Sunderland, West Brom etc. I believe it is still right to aspire to three points against these teams, and accept a certain level of criticism if this isn't attained, nothing ott however, as has been the case!
Here's hoping our improvement continues to gather pace and we climb more of that table!
Regards.
I guess my comment above (no deleted) didn't fit in with your mind set, typical censorship from you. I shall repost tomorrow. People should be allowed to compare the team left by Gerard and that was left by Rafa, by all means disagree with my conclusions, but why delete? it might have annoying to do with the article but it was in reply do various comments.
ReplyDeletePlus like I said, Liverpool are actually to points worse off now than what they where at this stage last year.....FACT!
Bloody iPad and auto change, I must turn that off and learn how to speall. Of course I meant 2 points and nothing instead of annoying
ReplyDeleteI did, but you deleted it. I shall repost tomorrow :)
ReplyDeleteI think you have taken some of these comparisons out of context, Henchoz was a great player for us, but when Rafa took over he was very much passed it, hence the emergence of Carra. Hamann was a great player for us, but for that position I would take Masha over him. Traore over aurelio is just madness! But I will post a comment tomorrow (saved on my work computer) that shows you a team plus 7 subs that would have (give or take) played at the end of each of Gerards and Rafas last campaign
ReplyDeleteWow another deleted reply!
ReplyDelete<span>Dudek v Reina
ReplyDeleteHenchoz v Skrtel
Finnan v Johnson
Hyypia v Kyrgiakos</span>
<span>Diao v Plessis</span>
<span>Cheyrou v Benayoun</span>
Carragher v Carragher
Gerrard v Gerrard
<span>Baros v Kuyt
Cisse v Ngog
Kewell v Maxi
Owen v Torres
Hamann v Mascherano
Riise v Aurelio
Murphy v Aquilani
Smicer v Riera
Biscan v Lucas
Kirkland v Cavalieri
Traore v Agger
Pongolle v El Zhar
Le Tallec v Pacheco
Diouf v Babel: </span>
<span>Welsh v Spearing</span>
<span>Mellor v Eccleston</span>
<span>Potter v Shelvey</span>
<span>Otsemobor v Kelly
</span>
Houllier 3, Rafa 19
What you do Sumon is mistake personal stubbornness and beligerence for pride. It's a common error.
ReplyDeleteRoy doesn't necessarily show pride for the club by 'hanging on'. Jaimie doesn't necessarily show pride for the club by doggedly hanging onto statistically based all-encompassing arguments. What I, and I presume Chan, was referring to is a sense of pride when representing the club. Be that while singing the Fields of Anfield Road or putting together a team with the full intention of achieving success. Putting the club on a pedestal built from the foundations of past glory and unerring spirit. That's what we want. And even where we fail, we appreciate that.
Of course we can't live with failure forever and hence Rafa's departure, but moreso than results, stats and the like, his sense of pride and spirit resonates with most true Liverpool fans. When you have a manager describing the very people who are marching to restore that pride as a 'disturbance' then surely we must expect a negative backlash. When the manager openly contemplates a world where our star striker could be sold to our biggest rivals as a replacement for their dissatisfied player there then surely we must expect a negative backlash. When the manager tells the media that a Liverpool player doesn't deserve to represent his country then surely we must expect a negative backlash. When the manager refuses to publicly defend our star striker against accusations of diving by our biggest rival then surely we must expect a negative backlash. When our manager tells the world that we had our best game of the season after slumping to a humiliating loss against our fierce local rivals then surely we must expect a negative backlash. No amount of comparison statistics can take from that. Until you understand that Jaimie no amount of Hodgson vs Rafa stats can sway fans of their opinion. Only a change in tact and direction by Hodgson himself can change that.
Like Rafa said, don't snipe at ex-managers, current players, fans, Scandinavian journalists blah blah blah. Work on restoring pride to the fans and the people of the city and you'll have our support. It doesn't matter if it's Mourinho or Hodgson, failure to do so will provoke a negative response. Average results and average purchases only make it worse.
Until a league winning attitude is applied where fans can legitimately sing "and now you're gonna believe us, we're going to win the league" and actually be justified in singing it (like Rafa got us singing a couple of years ago at Fulham), then we will remain sceptical and adverse to Roy's reign. Like I said Jaimie, I appreciate the stats as interesting and somewhat indicative. But they are NOT underlining. They do not cover every aspect of the game and of our club. I'm sure statistically Adebayor would contribute more to the side than Dirk Kuyt over a full season. But most fans would much prefer Dirky as a team member than the likes of Adebayor. Matter of fact, it was only a few months back that you compared the 'wastage' of Rafa to the wastage of Hicks & Gillett. Statistically you 'proved' that Rafa wasted more money that H&G. Until it was pointed out to you that the stats were redundant as H&G weren't supposed to be wasting us ANY money. They were supposed to be supplying the money for Rafa and the board to spend for the club. That argument itself underlines why people state that you continue to miss the point and appear detached from the feelings of many Liverpool fans worldwide. Cold analysis is no replacement for warm pride even where they appear to contradict each other. It can well be a factor. An important factor. But it's not the be all and end all. Pride ultimately is when measuring club [...]
For me, it has to be Torres and Babel. It is a combination that we have seen very rarely. I can remember Babel coming on at West Ham and having a good game and planting a cross on Torres head for the winning goal. Not bad for a guy who never takes his chance when he plays. I think he has more threat than N'gog and, apart from the goal, I thought he has shown some nice touches in the last couple of games. Torres has shown some nice touches also, playing in Maxi twice against Bolton and Tottenham. That kind of ball is made for a payer like Babel and if Hodgson can get them to work well during training I can't think of a more potentially lethal strike force in the League, maybe Tevez and Balotelli. When Kuyt plays, he often comes inside, so I would try to break gently to Gerrard that he should move out to the right, it probably wouldn't help Johnson much, but I think the Meireles/Lucas combination should be allowed to flourish. I'd like to see Jovanovic get a few more chances as well, Hodgson just doesn't seem to rate him at all. In their current form, I'd have Kuyt and Cole on the bench, with N'gog on the bench also. If we are chasing a game, throw them on. If Aurelio stays fit, with Kelly and Wilson, we have options, We just need to buy a couple of top class players and things will be ok. We're only 10 points off the top but the top sides won't be dropping points forever, so if we don't close up in the next 5 or 6 games we are done for. Again, it is getting this away form up to scratch. If Hodgson has not improved his away record by the end of this season, there really is nowhere else for him to go. But until we play a top 5 side, I think we should be going with two up front. With a midfield of Aurelio, Lucas, Meireles, Gerrard, from left to right.
ReplyDeletefew very important issues about your comaring the sqauds is strong
ReplyDelete1. Owen never played for Benitez, he left us two days league started.
2. you compare cheryrou and Plessis, when plessis was hardly a regular and cost hardly nothing, he was not one of the liverpool squad players, it seemns you are comparing liverpool squad player with youth reserve player
3. you compare Smicer against Riera when you could compare reira agaisnt Maxi who is a in my opion is beter palyer.
so its clear you are not being fair.
I think Hodgson inherited a weaker defence as Carra is older and Hypia is not team but I dispute anyone arguing that the midfield and attack Benitez inherited was stronger that the one hogson got, we have more world class palyers and this team is still capable of doing very well in the league with a little bit of luck
You consistently compare hodgson to benetiz's first year and last year in charge. First of all, Benetiz was SACKED and lost the support of fans (arguably), BECAUSE of these results.
ReplyDelete"<span>Taking everything into consideration, Hodgson is doing very well"</span>
You attempt to show of Hodgsons performance in a positive light through your tone, but using your exact facts, its quite easy to communicate the opposite. The fact that results haven't really improved much at all (at least, for now) from Benetiz worst year in charge to Hodgson today, is a reflection of continued poor performance. Our new manager was supposed to IMPROVE performance, not continue our downward streak.
While i do believe giving Hodgson more time may yeild results and he should have the chance to stay until the end of the season, your conclusions are very questionable and obviously skewed to reflect your personal bias in favour of Hodgson.
But then of course, you wont be man enough to admit that. ;)
why do you continue to compare Benitez's worst season with Hodgson's season. If such a compariosn is made, and Benitez was dimissed after that season, does it stand to reason that Hodgson should be dismissed as well?
ReplyDeleteWith a weaker team we plaed better football. The results might be similar but since Hodgson arrived, i have never seen Liverpool play so poorly. Just thinking of the way Hodgson hasthe team playing and some of his comments bring a tear to my eye and sadness to my heart YNWA
ReplyDeleteya ma a dirty whore
ReplyDeletehave a good day