One of the recurring themes evident in Liverpool fans' overwrought criticism of Roy Hodgson is the idea that he's somehow not good enough, or as one fan put it, guilty of 'substandard management'. The evidence? Liverpool's poor form since the start of the season, the consequence of which has seen many fans calling for Hodgson to be sacked. Well, as I will illustrate, this is yet another example of hypocrisy and double standards at play.
Yesterday, I came across the following in the comments section:
I take your point about needing a younger manager to build a dynasty, i agree and believe it is what we need also. That, however, doesn't mean we should have to put up with substandard management until we recruit that man.
The implication here is obviously that Liverpool should get rid of Hodgson.
Is it fair to say that Hodgson's management has been substandard? What is the best way to judge this? The principle way in which football managers are judged is results. Football is a results business, is it not? With that in mind, I've compared Hodgson's first 18 competitive games in charge with Gerard Houllier and Rafa Benitez's first 18. The results of the comparison *once again* make a complete mockery of those ignorant fans calling for Hodgson's head.
The actual truth is completely clear: Hodgson's start is just as good (and in some cases better) than the starts made Houllier and Benitez.
* Hodgson lost fewer games in the first 18 than Benitez, as did Houllier.
* Hodgson is unbeaten in 13 out of 18 games (72% of games), as was Houllier. Benitez managed only 12 out of 18 games.
* People moan about Hodgson's away record; Well, his record is comparable to Benitez: Houllier AND Hodgson managed 3 away wins in each of their respective first 18 games; Benitez managed 4. Does that 1 extra away win suddenly mean that Hodgson's reign should be discredited?!
* Hodgson has also achieved the same number of home wins as Benitez in his first 18 games as, and one more than Houllier.
Basically, Hodgson, Houllier and Benitez had very similar starts to their managerial reigns at Anfield. Despite this, Hodgson is accused by 'fans' of substandard management and not being good enough?! Were these utter hypocrites calling for the heads of Benitez and Houllier too after 18 games?! NO. Were Houllier and Benitez subjected to incessant professional and personal denigration by 'fans' after winning few away games and losing, as in Benitez's case, one third of the opening 18 games? NO.
Additionally, in their first 4 months in charge, neither Houllier nor Benitez had to deal with the intolerable pressure and uncertainty that Hodgson has been forced to operate under: boardroom civil war; court cases to decide the club's future, with the media circus that goes with all that; massively demotivated squad after atrocious previous season; the people that hired him leaving the club only months after starting the job; and most depressing of all, ceaseless, unwarranted personal and professional character assassination from the alleged 'greatest fans in the world'.
Given the circumstances and working conditions, Hodgson has *still* managed to do just as well as Houllier and Benitez did in their first 18 games, but apparently he is not good enough and should be sacked.
The ultimate proof of the graceless delusion of the fans calling for Hodgson's head are the lame excuses that will *still* be advanced to belittle the man *despite* the fact his start at Anfield is no worse what Houllier or Benitez managed (under infinitely less pressure).
Fans will moan about performances, signings etc whilst completely ignoring the fact that Benitez signed Josemi and Nunez in his first months as manager, two players who are were clearly worse than Poulsen and Konchesky. They will also refuse to acknowledge the woeful performances and tactical mistakes made by both Houllier and Benitez in several games during the first months of their respective tenures.
Just watch the excuses roll in: lame, baseless distinctions will be made; the Europe league will be slammed; I'll be told I shouldn't have included Europa qualifiers (even though they are competitive games); I'll be told that the quality of the opposition should be considered...and on and on and on.
If the figures showed that Hodgson had a much worse record than Benitez there would be no argument; the stats would be embraced wholeheartedly because it would give the anti-Hodgson fans another weapon in their arsenal.
It's simple: the figures do not meet the expectations of fans who want Hodgson out, so they will be discredited, ridiculed and dismissed, i.e. the same old tactics used AGAIN.
Herculean hypocrisy, and as I said in my last article, fans who have called for Hodgson to be sacked should be ashamed.
Jaimie Kanwar
Yesterday, I came across the following in the comments section:
I take your point about needing a younger manager to build a dynasty, i agree and believe it is what we need also. That, however, doesn't mean we should have to put up with substandard management until we recruit that man.
The implication here is obviously that Liverpool should get rid of Hodgson.
Is it fair to say that Hodgson's management has been substandard? What is the best way to judge this? The principle way in which football managers are judged is results. Football is a results business, is it not? With that in mind, I've compared Hodgson's first 18 competitive games in charge with Gerard Houllier and Rafa Benitez's first 18. The results of the comparison *once again* make a complete mockery of those ignorant fans calling for Hodgson's head.
The actual truth is completely clear: Hodgson's start is just as good (and in some cases better) than the starts made Houllier and Benitez.
* Hodgson lost fewer games in the first 18 than Benitez, as did Houllier.
* Hodgson is unbeaten in 13 out of 18 games (72% of games), as was Houllier. Benitez managed only 12 out of 18 games.
* People moan about Hodgson's away record; Well, his record is comparable to Benitez: Houllier AND Hodgson managed 3 away wins in each of their respective first 18 games; Benitez managed 4. Does that 1 extra away win suddenly mean that Hodgson's reign should be discredited?!
* Hodgson has also achieved the same number of home wins as Benitez in his first 18 games as, and one more than Houllier.
Basically, Hodgson, Houllier and Benitez had very similar starts to their managerial reigns at Anfield. Despite this, Hodgson is accused by 'fans' of substandard management and not being good enough?! Were these utter hypocrites calling for the heads of Benitez and Houllier too after 18 games?! NO. Were Houllier and Benitez subjected to incessant professional and personal denigration by 'fans' after winning few away games and losing, as in Benitez's case, one third of the opening 18 games? NO.
Additionally, in their first 4 months in charge, neither Houllier nor Benitez had to deal with the intolerable pressure and uncertainty that Hodgson has been forced to operate under: boardroom civil war; court cases to decide the club's future, with the media circus that goes with all that; massively demotivated squad after atrocious previous season; the people that hired him leaving the club only months after starting the job; and most depressing of all, ceaseless, unwarranted personal and professional character assassination from the alleged 'greatest fans in the world'.
Given the circumstances and working conditions, Hodgson has *still* managed to do just as well as Houllier and Benitez did in their first 18 games, but apparently he is not good enough and should be sacked.
The ultimate proof of the graceless delusion of the fans calling for Hodgson's head are the lame excuses that will *still* be advanced to belittle the man *despite* the fact his start at Anfield is no worse what Houllier or Benitez managed (under infinitely less pressure).
Fans will moan about performances, signings etc whilst completely ignoring the fact that Benitez signed Josemi and Nunez in his first months as manager, two players who are were clearly worse than Poulsen and Konchesky. They will also refuse to acknowledge the woeful performances and tactical mistakes made by both Houllier and Benitez in several games during the first months of their respective tenures.
Just watch the excuses roll in: lame, baseless distinctions will be made; the Europe league will be slammed; I'll be told I shouldn't have included Europa qualifiers (even though they are competitive games); I'll be told that the quality of the opposition should be considered...and on and on and on.
If the figures showed that Hodgson had a much worse record than Benitez there would be no argument; the stats would be embraced wholeheartedly because it would give the anti-Hodgson fans another weapon in their arsenal.
It's simple: the figures do not meet the expectations of fans who want Hodgson out, so they will be discredited, ridiculed and dismissed, i.e. the same old tactics used AGAIN.
Herculean hypocrisy, and as I said in my last article, fans who have called for Hodgson to be sacked should be ashamed.
Jaimie Kanwar
Yes every Liverpool fan is stupid apart from the wise old Kanwar.
ReplyDeleteinsted of behaving like a 2 year old, why don't you address the points I've made. are you capable of doing that? Clearly not, it seems. Are you interested in FAIRNESS at all, or are you just one of those people who jumps on the bandwagon and calls for Hodgso's head without considering the context of his reign and the facts?
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, any Liverpool fan calling for Hodgson's head after 4 months (and in light of the facts I've presented) is, IMO, worthy of being labelled stupid.
very well written. stats speak for themselves. YNWA
ReplyDeleteO' wise Kanwar....Benitez had Champions league in his first 18 games and inherited a poor squad with the star striker leaving 2 days before the transfer window closed. Why don't you just take the 10 premier league games and do your little math thingy.
ReplyDeleteWe are sick to the back teeth of Benitez this, Benitez that or the other. Enough Benitez for the love of god, he is gone for ever!
ReplyDeleteCan you divert your considerable energy towards our future and what NESV are doing/trying to do. Maybe talk about where you think we are heading in the next couple of seasons. You and NESV are good with numbers, can you turn your skills to what they have done in baseball, do you think it will work for us? why? what are they going to do next?
Very very few journalists or bloggers are writing factual detailed well thought out analysis about NESV, it's all emotional so far. Please give us something worth shouting about Jamie.
I don't think you should include European qualifiers as a "game" Its more like a glorified training match. But if you must have it by the straight and narrow, then yes, Hodgson is an amazing manager, better than Rafa and Gerard.
ReplyDeleteYou are forgetting to mention that Houllier was halfway through the season in the Premier league for his 18 games and Rafa was in the Champions League during his whilst Hodgson has been playing 8 of his 18 games in the Europa League and Europa League qualifiers where he has picked up most of his wins. Substandard victories in a substandard competition from a substandard manager.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how I'm slammed for referring to Benitez but it's perfectly okay for everyone calling for Hodgson's head to compare him to Benitez. Funny that.
ReplyDeleteI will not stop referring to Benitez where it is warranted. Comparison with previous managers is par for the course. The only reason people want me to stop is that they don't want the truth.
Well, that's not going to happen. There needs to be someone out there defending Hodgson using reason and facts, and that person is me.
if people don't like that, they can go to another site and join the HODGSON OUT! bandwagon.
All competitive games have been included. Is that not fair? Perhaps I should leave out those Euro qualifiers (i.e. competitive games) because then it would make Benitez's figures look better, right?
ReplyDeleteI'll do that now!
Not.
Seriously? You are going to use the early Europa games as evidence of Roy's brilliance?
ReplyDeleteYou're wasting your breath mate, the Benitez nutters will rubbish it but offer no statistics to back themselves up. Liverpool fans used to be renowned for backing their manager to the hilt; at least until he'd worn out their patience (Welsh, Taylor, Souness and Benitez). I've never know us to be violently unfair to a manager right from the off. It's the Benitez nutters of course who are responsible for this.
ReplyDeleteRoy Hodgson is the manager of Liverpool Football Club; he's only been here a dog's watch; give the lad a chance for god's sake and act like Liverpool supporters. He's OUR manager, therefore offer criticism on a game by game basis as is your right, but don't keep calling for his head, and for goodness sake, forget about Benitez he's Inter's problem.
@CS.. settle down mate. Your getting into a manager whos had a rough start to his managerial career at liverpool. The stats above speak for themselves. Its a fair point you make about CL football but neither rafa or gerard had any issues in relation to club stability over their first 18 games.
ReplyDeleteThe media circle and the low self esteem amongst the playing group made it so much harder for roy to install his plans into the playing group.
If you are getting into roy, make sure you spread it out with the previous managers that in their window of starting as gaffer didnt do much better.
While I don't have the time to check the details of statistics you have provided, a couple of things spring to mind.
ReplyDeleteOpponents - <span>A good number of games Hodgson's Liverpool played are against way way weaker teams in Europa league. Houliier and Benitez played Chapion's league teams. </span>
League - While Hodgo's Europa league results are positive in your table, the EPL is anything but good news. We are 12th, we were 18th last week, and I don't believe Rafa or Houllier were in the relegation zone ever. Liverpool being in relegation zone is as good as if Megan Ryan were being arrested for prostitution.
I am a fence-sitter when it comes to the manager, one part of me would love to see him having a fair chance, the other would rather see him off in early December. I think the deciding factor would be results. The next two games are crucial. If we (he) don't get six points from them, then Roy's chances of being Liverpool's manager beyond Christmas are very slim.
If I was the one to choose, I'd more likely opt for Frank Rijkaard as of 1st December if not immediately.
Proof if ever it were needed that you can prove anything you want with statistics - you should work for the government.
ReplyDelete2 league wins in total under Hodgson - the rest are against minnows like MonkeyBob Transylvania FC. We've also been fortunate enough to steal points againts lesser opposition who played us off the park - Sunderland & Birmingham for instance. We have been playing like absolute crap - partially a hangover from last season, and partially Hodgson's archaic tactics (with a helping hand from Poulsen and Konchesky - who are both woeful and as far as I'm concerned they are by no means clearly better than Josemi and Nunez)
And the points tally is only part of peoples issues with grandpa - his demented ramblings about the likes of the Everton match, or being 'distracted' by fans trying to get rid of Hicks & Gillette etc is as much of an issue.
Also - selective choice of Rafa's early signings there - A: its not like he had much of a choice with who he was getting in the Owen deal (i.e Nunez) and B: you conveniently forgot to mention Luis Garcia & Xabi Alonso
You really have to be on a wind up mission...
This isn't a lame excuse at all, is it?
ReplyDeleteHoullier was halfway through the league season?! Did you even check that before you made it up? Houllier and Liverpool were in the UEFA CUP that season, and 4 of the 18 games were UEFA Cup games. There was also a league cup game too. What freakin' difference does it make anyway?! NONE.
Proof if ever it were needed that you can prove anything you want with statistics - you should work for the government.
ReplyDelete3 league wins in total under Hodgson - the rest are against minnows like MonkeyBob Transylvania FC. We've also been fortunate enough to steal points againts lesser opposition who played us off the park - Sunderland & Birmingham for instance. We have been playing like absolute crap - partially a hangover from last season, and partially Hodgson's archaic tactics (with a helping hand from Poulsen and Konchesky - who are both woeful and as far as I'm concerned they are by no means clearly better than Josemi and Nunez)
And the points tally is only part of peoples issues with grandpa - his demented ramblings about the likes of the Everton match, or being 'distracted' by fans trying to get rid of Hicks & Gillette etc is as much of an issue.
Also - selective choice of Rafa's early signings there - A: its not like he had much of a choice with who he was getting in the Owen deal (i.e Nunez) and B: you conveniently forgot to mention Luis Garcia & Xabi Alonso
You really have to be on a wind up mission...
Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/11/houllier-vs-benitez-vs-hodgson-first-18.html#ixzz14HGJLDOx
What has 'brilliance' got to do with it? Where did I state Hodgson was brilliant? I'm merely illustrating how ignorant it is to call for his head when his record is just the same as Houlliers and Benitez's when they first took over at Liverpool. Why don't you look up the word 'fairness' in the dictionary and try and understand what it means.
ReplyDeleteAlso look up 'misinterpret' and 'comprehension' whilst you're at it.
I have never seen someone use statistics to twist facts so much.
ReplyDeleteThere's a famous Benjamin Disraeli quote about statistics and it applies to this analysis and most of your analyses.
Suffice to say that Europa League games against very weak opposition are not comparable to Champions League games or even Premier League matches.
If you are going to do a comparison then make it a fair one and compare apples to apples, not apples to toothbrushes.
By the way, if judging Hodgson after he's been in the job for a few months is premature then what do you call judging Benitez before he even started the job? I seem to recall you saying more than once that you "knew" Benitez wasn't right for the job as soon as he was hired...
A prime example of one of having a counter-productive short-term view. Why does being in the relegation zone matter? it doesn't. Man United also slipped into the relegation zone a couple of seasons ago. Big deal. So early in the season it means NOTHING. You are trying to make it mean everything.
ReplyDeleteWhat matters is that after 18 games, under infinitely more pressure than both Houllier and Benitez, Hodgson has performed just as well overall.
In any event, your ridicule of Hodgson by calling 'Grandpa' illustrates everything I need to know about your sense of fairness. Why don't you try being respectful to the manager of the club instead of belittling him?
Maybe all this proves is that since neither GH or RB won the league, we should fire RH now as it seems we're in for the same ride.
ReplyDeleteDo you have relevant to add except the usual tedious cliche about statistics?
ReplyDeleteWhy don't ou stop blustering about nothing and make a credible counter argument?
How are the statistics twisted? Just because you say it doesn't make it so? is it not a fact that Hodgson, Houllier and Benitez all managed only 3 away wins in their first 18 games? How did I twist that figure exactly?
What next - more bluster about 78% of stats are made up on the spot?
When you have a valid and FAIR counter argument that's relevant and makes sense then we'll talk.
ReplyDeleteJamie, these figures you are using are very misleading due to the different contexts you are treating. Comparing the first 10 games of the Premiership, a benchmark Hodgson himself merited, is a more meaningful context because all 3 managers started competing in it.
ReplyDeleteAs you should know, however, the first 10 games (or thereabouts) at Anfield for Houllier was in a partnership with Evans which is a very different management structure. Also Houllier/Evans like Hodgson had games in the very inferior UEFA Cup now come Europa League. Rafa was in the Champions League which is vastly superior. When you get the numbers, get the story behind them - you corroborate your understanding of the issue at hand. Quantitative plus qualitative analysis is needed in such and analysis always.
I am impressed though; you could get a job in a developing country doctoring crime statistics in an election year for the incumbent party.
18 games might not be enough to prove how good/bad he is. Why not wait till 30th games before judging him?
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to slam you Jamie. I appreciate that the comparison is warranted in the point you are trying to make. I am not criticisng the content of the article, you make a good argument and put your point across clearly.
ReplyDeleteFor the record I don't support the Hodgson out brigade or the rafa is the messiah brigade either. Neither do I think Hodgson is the messiah and rafa is the anti christ. I am not saying you are doing that either. for a lot of us fans who sit in the middle ground we just feel that everyone is adopting a black and white view of things.
All I am saying the debate is becoming very polarised and we are losing focus on the future. The future is what really counts and almost no one is talking about it. it's the present and the past everyone is concerned with.
When a lot of people are going for a cheap win and lazy journalism you seem to have the ability to look at things a bit more objectively and factually, All I want is a shift of focus towards our future what NESV are trying to do and will it work.
did GH or RB lose a humiliating cup tie to a league 4 side...
ReplyDeletewe've scrapped wins this year, only done well against europa league teams...
shown no real passion in the games...
shockingly stupid to compare champions league quality teams to europa league quality teams...
really gone down in my estimations if you think RH has done just as well or even better than the other two in his 1st 18 games....
The figures are only 'misleading' because they do not paint a picture that you agree with; they do not meet your expectations or fit with what you *want* to see.
ReplyDeleteIf the figures showed that Hodgson had a much worse record, you and others would embrace them because you could then use the figures as further evidence to back up your Hodgson OUT! Campaign
The proof of your ridiculous lack of fairness comes in your comments about Benitez; according to you, the figures are not valid because Benitez was in the SUPERIOR champions league. Your approach is so transparent. You do not have ability to be fair. Consequently, your argument is empty.
Hmmm. Interesting. But what you have inadvertantly missed here is the fact that you have included europa league qualifying matches, agaisnt Rabotnicki and Transbosor. Rabotnicki have never qualified for europa, while transbosr, well come on. Now your just clutching at straws.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime we have Rafa in the same period qualifying for Champions league. Vast contrast in competition one might say. Now whilst i was never an avid supporter of Rafas defensive tactics, at least he had a plan a, b, c and d. Roy has 1 tactic, defend and hoof. and when that goes wrong he turns to sammy for advice? does this sound like the kind of manager that has confidence in his abilities. The football we are currently playing is that of a standard in much lower leagues, this was illustrated by the fact that we lost to Northampton, a team that is struggling in the second division. And yes you will turn your defence on the fact that we played with our starlets, but aresenal plays with its young guns in its cup matches, so that isnt a valid excuse.
I was never a fan of Roy managing Liverpool, yet i stood by and even gave him the 10 weeks he asked for. Well 10 weeks have past Jamie, and all that can be said is that we have not seen any significant improvemnt in our playing style, nor have we seen anything tangible that could be derived as stability or confidence within the team. If anything the players seem to be playing out of pure desperation. Granted, our game against Blackburn, there was a glimmer of hope, but the following week was again dismall.
Every team in the league is currently playing better than us, with more fluidity and purpose. We dont seem to have any purpose. We dont seem to have any cut and dry way of breaking defences down, everything seems to disjointed and we only break when mistakes have been made by our oppsing teams. This is down to training, and this down to the management style. And im sorry to say but it seems as though Roy doesnt seem to have the technical knowledge to offer the boys ideas in attack.
We are good at passing the ball in our own half, and defending, but get the ball into the oppsositons half and were lost. This is where the manager should be stepping in and offering his knowledge into tactically breaking down the defence. But it seems that Roy is bereft of ideas. We have the players, 13 internationals in our squad, so they can be effective if given the right guidance, yet it seems that Roy is incapable of offering that advice.
Sorry Jamie, but i was always one to back our manager no matter what, i was behind Rafa even though i wasn't a fan of his ideas. But on this one, i just have no confidence in a manger who cant see what is going on and can't offer change when change is needed.
I appreciate your comment but the unfair and disgraceful criticism of a Liverpool manager cannot be allowed to pass. Who else in the media is defending Hodgson? Which other Liverpool websites are making the slightest attempt to be fair to the man? NONE. Someone has to present the facts and try to be fair, and as long as others are unfairly denigrating Hodgson, I will defend him. And I would do the same (and have done the same) for any Liverpool manager, including Benitez, who I have defended many times on various issues in the past.
ReplyDelete@writer: you're arguably the most popular Liverpool troll
ReplyDeleteI just can't believe that Kenwar has so much time to spend misrepresenting data simply to gain attention. Freud would have had an absolute field-day with him.
ReplyDeleteSeriously i think people just come onto football sites to wind each other up. At the end of the day all your ranting and raving aint going to do anything. Rafa is gone, won sweet FA in how long? And bought plenty duds along the way. He had his chance and he blew it. Get over it. Roy is nothing special and everyone knows it. Even when he was appointed by the board it was merely to steady the ship. If i recall correctly. They know he is not a AF. They wanted someone who would not cause any trouble in the senior management so it wouldnt scare off the very few bidders that had actually approached the club to buy.
ReplyDeleteEnergies are wasted on the fighting, time to show a little support. If its just disaster after disaster like it was with Ramos at spurs before harry come and saved the day then fair enough. Lets wait till new year. At the end of the day no matter what manager comes he still has to work with over paid useless rubbish. Its easy to say i want this player and that but you forgot LFC cant attract much without CL football. Van der Vaart is evident of that. Not to mention we dont even no how or if theres much money.
Hope and pray is all one can do at the moment :)
All of the above applies to both Houllier and Benitez at various times in the tenures as managers.
ReplyDeleteSo what? Do these isolated incidents define the reigns of both Houllier and Benitez? NO.
Take last season for example: Absolutely atrocious in every way.
Should we then use last season to define Benitez's entire reign?! Does last season in isolation prove that Benitez is a bad manager/ Would such a thought-process be fair? NO.
The same applies to Hodgson. So he's lost a bad game - does that make him the worst manager in the world?! NO. You are just so hell-bent on finding reasons to slam the guy that you refuse to look at things in context, or accept that sometimes club's suffer bad defeats.
Hear hear. I reckon a lot of Liverpool fans feel the same way as you do Mclovin (I for one agree with your posts), we're just a lot less vocal about it. Enough of this Benitez/Hodgson argument. Let's just focus on the future and see what NESV will deliver.
ReplyDeleteAgain you fail with your point. You dont address the difference in quality of the opposition and the players available to each manager. Try again. Please on behalf of all Liverpool fans will you just give up with your BS agenda. Nobody cares anymore. Get over it. Like the mighty teams Houllier and Hodgson had to face where similar to Champions League teams Rafa had to face in first 18 games. EPIC FAIL again.
ReplyDeletefor gods sake...look at the goals man! anyone can make stats say what they want them to, 86% of all people that use stats in this way know that.
ReplyDelete"Fans will moan about performances, signings etc whilst completely ignoring the fact that Benitez signed Josemi and Nunez in his first months as manager, two players who are were clearly worse than Poulsen and Konchesky. They will also refuse to acknowledge the woeful performances and tactical ineptitude mistakes made by both Houlier and Benitez in several games during the first months of their respective tenures."
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, it's clear both men understood the value of stop-gap players when working under financial constraints. Josemi and Nunez cost a combined total of £2m and both had resale value, Konchesky and Poulsen (of which neither have resale value) cost a combined total of £8.5m + Lauri Della Valle and Alexander Kacaniklic. LDV was one of the brightest prospects in the academy.
PS. I expect an "I got it wrong about Hodgson" piece when he's fired for keeping us a mid-table team when we are capable of so much more.
your argument using Europa Cup games as evidence of Hodgson's superior performance is like a Necastle fan claiming that Hughton is the greatest of all time because he racked up +100 points last season! - everything has to be taken in context
ReplyDelete(Liverpool & most English clubs were regularly underdogs in Europe during Houllier's reign, whereas Prem clubs are heavy favourites in nearly every game in Europe nowadays - Sky's money & the league format in Europe has changed things considerably)
Anyway, ignoring the fact that including such games skewers your figures, a major reason for patience with Benitez was because fans were hopeful that he would eventually mould the team into a version of his successful Valencia team. There was recent success on his CV to be used as a cause for optimism and belief in his management.
In contrast, Hodgson's doesn't have that CV to fall back on in the face of his short term failings. From what we can see, our team has been playing woefully under him, and from his CV, his success has been in minor leagues or in establishing mid-table clubs - none of which Liverpool fans want to be associated with.
Also, with his focus on 'experienced' players at the expense of any experimentation with youth, he is reducing the long term potential of the team and encouraging fans to take a short term view to his management - the subsequent under-performance of his ageing team then provides reason to believe that he is ultimately going to improve on Benitez's work.
For a fan-base that is so desperate to win the title, there is no logic in patiently waiting around for a manager that has done nothing to inspire any confidence that he will eventually deliver what we ultimately want. Vain hopes of competing for a CL spot may be enough to satisfy you, but I want a manager that can inspire confidence that we will be challenging for the title again soon!
How on earth you did not take into account that liverpool was in the champions league when benitez started which make it more difficult for him..
ReplyDelete"Fans will moan about performances, signings etc whilst completely ignoring the fact that Benitez signed Josemi and Nunez in his first months as manager, two players who are were clearly worse than Poulsen and Konchesky. They will also refuse to acknowledge the woeful performances and tactical ineptitude mistakes made by both Houlier and Benitez in several games during the first months of their respective tenures."
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, it's clear both men understood the value of stop-gap players when working under financial constraints. Josemi and Nunez cost a combined total of £2m and both had resale value, Konchesky and Poulsen (of which neither have resale value) cost a combined total of £8.5m + Lauri Della Valle and Alexander Kacaniklic. LDV was one of the brightest prospects in the academy. If you're going to buy sub-standard players; a) don't overpay for them, b) don't use talented youngsters as makeweights and; c) make sure you can recoup some of your money for them.
Perhaps you could do a piece on our style of football under the three managers?
ALL HAIL LIVERPOOL, KINGS OF EUROPE AND DESTROYERS OF FK RABOTNICKI AND FAMOUS VICTORS IN TURKEY.
PS. I expect an "I got it wrong about Hodgson" piece when he's fired for keeping us a mid-table team when we are capable of so much more.
next year you can report a 100% result record after 18 games in championship (2nd division).....well even those are valid according to you....why dont you compare the premier league corresponding fixtures from each managers first year....after all our priority is premier league right !! (this was the lame priority remark everyone made when rafa made champions league his priority).....Jamie your calculation doesnt make sense...I think the fact remains that hodgson hasnt won a single trophy in any major european country.....he was responsible for getting blackburn relegated as well...
ReplyDeletejesimps - I'm not a IRWTer and am glad that Benitez is gone.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I was willing to give Hodgson a chance and have run out of patience with him already. Everything I criticised Benitez for last season (e.g. unfair player favouritism, negative and uninspiring tactics & team selection, ineffective/late substitution policy, poor transfer policy, stupid press comments etc.) Hodgson has replicated!
I thought that there with Benitez gone, the cloud would be lifted only way was up, but we seem to have just picked up a cheap, inferior version of him! As such, I feel no qualms in raising the call for Hodgson to be let go, and the club to finally appoint a bold, adventurous & progressive man to lead the club forwards
How is that transperant. Now you are the one who is being transperant. How can you possibly compare Europa League to Champions League. Now you are being a hypocrite as you are blatantly defending your logic because it fits with your argument.
ReplyDeleteyour argument using Europa Cup games as evidence of Hodgson's superior performance
ReplyDeleteJay - why don't you try interpreting my argument correctly before proceeding? Where have I stated that Hodgson's performance is 'superior'? I have not. I specifically said that the reigns of all three managers were very similar. individual managment ability is not the issue here.
And Europa qualifiers are competitive games, are they not? Why should they be excluded? Obvioulsy you just want them out so Benitez's figures look better. There is no other reason. A fair-minded person would accept that all competitive games should be included for a fair comparison.
and what does Hodgson's CV have to do with ANYTHING? You're raising issues that are completely irrlevant to the question of how Hodgson has performed in his first 18 games in relation to Houllier and Benitez.
And you seriously believe that Liverpool should be challenging for the title after finishing 7th last season, and going through possibly the greatest football-related upheaval in its history?
It beggars belief, it really does.
right with you boetsch! People love to claim that Benitez was the best manager of the past 20 years and that means that he deserved to remain, but the simple fact is that he failed!
ReplyDeleteEven if Hodgson exactly duplicates Benitez's achievements in the league, all that means is that in 6 years time we'll just have gone another 6 years without the title!
why 30, why not 50? Actually, we should make it a nice round 100 really! After all, there's no way of knowing whether such negative tactics can win the league or not until we give it at least 3 seasons, so that Hodgson has enough time to get in "his players" and get his ideas across fully...
ReplyDeleteNonsense. The relative strengths of those competitions have absolutely nothing to do with anything! You and others WANT it to mean something because it means you can put Benitez on some kind of pedestal! That is why it's transparent. Competitive games are competitive games. We're not talking about comparing the relative merits of each team. Perhaps I should not include some league games either - why don't you argue that this year's Bolton and Blackburn are not as good as some of the teams Benitez played in 2004-5? Tell you what - I'll take out all the league games against NON- top 4 opposition for Hodgson, then that will make the figures even better for Benitez.
ReplyDeleteBetter still, why don't I just scrap all the factual figures and just make them up! Here are the new figures
Hodgson: P18. W0. D0. L18
Benitez: P18. W18. L0. D0
Oh, and every game Benitez played was against either Man United, Real Madrid or AC Milan. It was a three team league so hard games every week.
That would workd for you, wouldn't it?
Your ignorance is breathtaking. Hodgson has won 14 trophies in various countries. ah, forget it. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone with such simplistic, inaccurate, brainwashed views.
ReplyDeleteYou are a knee-jerk, reactionary fan like the rest of them calling for Hodgson's head. You completely ignore the context of Hodgson's reign so far, dismissing the pressure he's had to work under, and alsoi dismissing how hard his job has been after debacle of last season. Picking the squad up after that takes time, and with all the ownership hassle going on, and the media circus, it is a difficult job. But just kep ignoring all that.
ReplyDeleteI think it was more to do with fans frustration and sense of dispair that brought RH under scrutiny.I myself have bemoaned his signings and strategy/team selection.It's easy to do when you know how great a club like ours can be.
ReplyDeleteSo what you are trying to say is that Europa league is just as cometetive as Champions league right. Ok.. Sure. ill go with that...
ReplyDeleteOh, and by the way, i was never a fan of Benetiz ...
ReplyDeleteNo. You just do not understand, and I can't be bothered to explain it again.
ReplyDeleteNever in my life have i read such uncontrolled ramblings from a "journalist". Abusing people who don't agree with you doesn't solve anything and screaming at the top of your lungs that all competitive games mean the same isn't going to make it so. With your logic we can compare Hughton to Ancelloti and because Hughton racked up more points in competitive games is clearly the better manager. Look i'm not going to argue with the numerous fallacies in your argument, but will simply say that apart from one half of football against Blackburn we've looked rubbish. No quality whatsoever. Blackpool and WBA are playing BETTER and more attractive football than us and we're a side blessed with world class players and a lot of quality internationals. If Hodgson can't get his tactics right and get the best out of them then it's time for him to go... whether it's his 4th month in charge or his 40th.
ReplyDeleteNever in my life have i read such uncontrolled ramblings from a "journalist". Abusing people who don't agree with you doesn't solve anything and screaming at the top of your lungs that all competitive games mean the same isn't going to make it so. With your logic we can compare Hughton to Ancelloti and because Hughton racked up more points in competitive games is clearly the better manager. Look i'm not going to argue with the numerous fallacies in your argument, but will simply say that apart from one half of football against Blackburn we've looked rubbish. No quality whatsoever. Blackpool and WBA are playing BETTER and more attractive football than us and we're a side blessed with world class players and a lot of quality internationals. If Hodgson can't get his tactics right and get the best out of them then it's time for him to go... whether it's his 4th month in charge or his 40th.
ReplyDeleteIf the Europa leage is full of inferior teams and Liverpool are there what does it say about Liverpool? You get what you earn not what you think you deserve!
ReplyDeleteAs a Chelsea fan of 40+ years I was surprised by RH"s appointment as he does not seem to have a high enough profile to attract the quality of players needed at Liverpool, in my opinion, however, that said, you should support your manager without question until he is gone as you should support the rest of your team!
Do you not think all the negativity around has any effect on the players?
Support and enjoy! bemoan missed chances, <span>reminisce</span> about the good old days, and look to the future but above all
SUPPORT YOUR TEAM UNCONDITIONALY (RH is part of your team)
Believe it or not I want to see a strong Liverpool.
Actually I don't care about Benitez's figures - I've made it clear plenty of times that I lost all faith in him a long time ago and once I realised that we were never going to win the league with him, I wanted us to move on. Same with Hodgson.
ReplyDelete<span>It's simple: the figures do not meet the expectations of fans who want Hodgson out, so they will be discredited, ridiculed and dismissed, i.e. the same old tactics used AGAIN.
</span>
<span>Herculean hypocrisy, and as I said in my last article, fans who have called for Hodgson to be sacked should be ashamed
</span>
Your article was not all about the stats of the first 18 games in charge - you questioned the differing reactions to the set of results, and the CV's are actually relevant in this respect. Past performance CAN sometimes be used as indicative of future results, and Benitez's CV gave cause for a lot more belief in his method's as we could look at his Valencia team as an end goal even when our team was failing; whereas in contrast, I doubt any of us have seen Hodgson's title winning sides and merely have a mid-table team to look on as proof of his pedigree. Unfortunately, that is not what we all want to look forwards to...
<span>you seriously believe that Liverpool should be challenging for the title after finishing 7th last season<span>
I didn't say this season, I said "soon" - Hodgson's emphasis on experience over youth does mean that I take a more short term view though, and expect more immediate results than if he were bringing through a bunch of reserve players that are having to learn through their mistakes. </span></span>
<span><span>His management of our team has already convinced me that we will never win the league with him in charge though and so I believe we're better off moving on asap, instead of wasting a few more years in another failed experiment. N</span></span><span>o team has been successful in our league with a manager that is so passive on the bench, and his negative management style is not automatically going to change just because he gets handed the funds to (potentially) bring better players in. </span>
<span><span>Just like Man City with Mancini (but with inferior players) anything that LFC achieve looks like it will have to be done in spite of our manager, rather than because of him, and we should be looking for more than that - even if it has only been a few months</span></span>
I understand perfectly Jamie. Don't you dare try and undermine me. I can honestly say that i have more football experiance in my left toe than you do in your entire exeistence. I have palyed at the highest level in europe, and played alongside some of the EPL best players. So don't go thinking you have the right to undermine anyone because you can put 2 and 2 together and seemingly make it 5.
ReplyDeleteYour statistics are not accurate because you chose to weigh your argument based on games played, as opposed to the level of opposition played. You cant weigh your argument on Europa versus Champions league, its tinkering with the results.
Everyone bar you sees that. Fair go, Hodgson maybe hasnt had enough time to prove his worth, but he also hasnt showed us anything that is worth being inspired over, which is why the vast majority are calling for his head. Perhaps its a knee-jerk reaction, or maybe the fans just want more than Roy can give..
But don;t think you have a right to undermine anyone, as your opinion is just that yours. It's not necassarily the truth, its just how you picture it, regardless of how you dress it up with figures and stastics...
oh so now context is relevant again Jamie??
ReplyDelete"Knee-jerk & reactionary" like the rest of them - the IRWTer's stayed loyal to Benitez until the end, so who is "the rest of them" to which you refer?? It seems that you're getting a bit too caught up in this whole, "me against the world" thing now! lol
Liverpool went through a take-over; it's happened before and it'll happen again. You weren't worried about the future of the club before when the sale was still up in the air, but now all of a sudden it was such a drain on the manager (but only Hodgson, not Benitez right?) Make up your mind mate! Either Benitez too struggled under immensely difficult circumstances and deserved more time, or both have woefully underperformed - as Rafa might like to say, "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander!"
Btw, the debacle of our last season was still a better season than Hodgson led his previous club to (7th & Europa Cup semi-final vs 12th and Europa Cup final) ;)
The statistics are fine and everything, but they dont reflect the actual truth, the reason we didnt criticise benitez during his first 18 games was because, although we drew or lost, the team played better, played offside traps, pushed up to compress play, we could see there was so much potential with his style of management, like against man utd, how many times was rooney or berbatov or nani caught offside during benitez's reign? almost every attack u could hear carraghers screams, PUSH UP, this prevents them from crossing in which they are really good at
ReplyDeleteUnder hodgson, did u see the amount of crosses nani and co put in? around 15 during the first half?, obviously with berbatov there hes gonna score, he doesnt know much about tactical analysis, did u see our ghastly performance against everton? birmingham? sunderland? which we only drew cause of torres's lucky goal, and dont forget, our first few games have been in europa league qualifiers, QUALIFICATION TO THE EUROPA LEAGUE
I'll say it again JK "there's lies, damned lies and statistics".
ReplyDeleteJK please list all teams played so we can assess the relevance of your comparisons. You might find that neither Rafa or Houllier had to play Europa League qualifiers. Stats back up weak arguments when they are not adjusted or qualified in any shape or form to take account of varying circumstances of the situations faced at different times.Merely displaying the number of top 3 teams played provides no realistic qualification so get real mate and provide real qualitative as well as relevant comparable quantitative data. Let's compare his first 18-19 league games so we can eliminate any noise around europa comps etc. This way we can remove the Northampton result from Roy's record which was an enigma and no reason to call for his head. Its the league form that is the issue and he has had a good couple of weeks. He has 8 games or so to keep it going and could end up with a better record than the others given Rafa only got 58 points all year and finished 5th. But you know me and the Rafa brigade will point to all the Champions League games that took prioity in season 1 of the Rafa regime.
I still believe he should go for two reasons: he is a knee jerk appointment of the old regime and his style is stodgy and lacks energy at the best of times. The best comparison of all for Roy would be if he lasts 5 years and we have 5 years to compare records. I'm sure you'll still be banging the Rafa the god is a myth drum in 5 years time.
Hodgson has inherited a team that hasn't performed over the last season. You can talk about the Benitez having to play CL games in his first 18 games but he is the one who has left the club without CL this season. Hodgson can only win the games in front of him; who knows if he Liverpool would have won or lost in the CL this season if they had played. He is rebuilding a club that had set the standards in the 70's and 80's but have not truly competed in the PL for many years. I wish him well; I feel the players will perform for him and he will turn things around. He is 5 points of CL with along way to go this season. With time I think he will get you back up top again.
ReplyDeletetake it easy guys, hodgson is going nowhere as changing managers doesn't help with stability; hodgson is not permanent either, NESV has a long term goal and they are building the foundation now. many fans WANT the club to get back into champions league next season and I understand that because that means star players will leave. however, i can see NESV sees beyond next season, much further than that. they want to create a model that allows the club to be self sufficient, financially and in terms of player/youth development. that way, we DO NOT need the help of investors or sugar daddy, nor do we need to pray/pay for star players to play for us.
ReplyDelete<span>honestly, i can't be f*ck*d worrying about our league standing come May or the next few season or whether hodgson, rijkaard, o'neill, or rafa will be the manager. I'm really hoping that NESV is the real messiah that will bring us the knowledge and means to build a new dynasty.</span>
btw, kanwar, every statistics needs a context, you knew that. if you insist otherwise, i can claim that australia is the best nation in the world because they had the biggest score margin 31-0 in an international match.
Statistics are all well and good but there is also the human factor that has to be quantified to be fair. Intangibles such as charisma, confidence, purpose, demeanor, media awareness etc also plays a big role.
ReplyDeletethanks, yes statistically it's in the sub 2.5cm category
ReplyDeleteyou should really make your comparisons on the same competitions they were competing in as you can make figures tell whatever story you want
ReplyDeleteor as a minimum you should make it clear that your comparisons include different competitions
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteIf games are games and we should not take the quality of the opposition into account why do you include the statistic about "top teams played"?
Just a thought although you probably will not reply!!!
So far, it appears that your only reason for not comparing like for like (league vs league) is that it will show Benitez to have a better record. I don't know if that is true or not, and I'm only repeating what you have said. However, what it proves to me, once again, is that you are part of the Anti-Benitez Brigade.
ReplyDeleteYou have mentioned fairness several times in the comments, so as somebody else has suggested, why not revisit this after 18 league games and see how the managers compare?
I'm really not sure what to make of Hodgson. So far we have looked terrible, even in comparison to last year. However, I would hate to see us become a club that discards managers without giving them a chance.
benitez won the most points thats the bottom line!! m
ReplyDeleteFor gods sake just show us what the stats show excluding European games. You are demonstrating you bias by not doing it. It is a valid statistical analysis and no impartial statistician should refuse to do it because they don't like the results. Show it along side the games including European results and we can then draw conclusions from both. If you think it will show Benitez in a better light, it would suggest that he had a better start in English domestic competitions than hodgeson, and hodgson had a better start in europe than Benitez. Yet Benitez ended up winning the champs league. So maybe it is more important to start well in prem league to give the best chance of qual for top euro football but I don't know because you won't show us!!! One thing I would add is that are you sure Benitez would do better statistically excl euro football as as I recall we failed to qualify in the league but was given champs league footy as holders??
ReplyDeleteJamie you love all the debating you`ve created dont you? As i have supported this club for 38 years travelled to games & bought the merchandise im entitled to my opinion just like everyone else. Since Roy has taken over i`ve seen us play some awfull football even my Mrs has said we were crap. Most matches have to be compared been like watching paint dry with long ball football weve been simply crap. Until we start playing good football i will critisise anyone who`s in the hotseat at Anfield. I do hope Roy turns things around but as i said its only hope. Come on Liverpool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAnyone with the slightest knowledge of statistical analysis knows that if you are halfway competent you can skew the data any which way you want. If I had 5 hours to look at the data I could 'prove' that any of the previous three managers listerd were better or worse than each other.
ReplyDeleteThe real fact of the matter is that, like most things in life, situations rarely stay the same from one day (or season) to the next. For example, the quality of teams Houllier faced in his first 18 games were different to Benitez's and Benitez's were different to Hodgson's. Same goes for the quality of the Liverpool players in the sides of Houllier, Benitez and Hodgson in their first 18 games. There are degrees of difference and these factors aren't quantifiable (hence there isn't any real value in comparing them like for like)
It seems like the reason there has been such an outpouring of opposition to this article is because it doesn't take into account what has been seen on the pitch over the past 4-5 months, which no-one could argue, on the vast majority has been pretty absymal. Once again, the reasons for this could be down to much more than Hodgson's management (owners situations, players getting used to new players, abnormally good performances by other sides, the sun in pepe's eyes etc) but I don't think you could honestly say that things looked this bleak at this stage of Houllier and Benitez's reigns right? People are frustrated because they haven't seen anything that illustrates that Hodgson will be the person (either this year or in 5 years) who is going to get us to where we want to be (once again, not something that can be quantified by fact)
I'm far from a Benitez supporter (he frustrated me as much as anyone last season) but if the responsibility is going to be laid at his feet for last seasons efforts then its only fair to lay the responsibility at Hodgson's feet for this seasons efforts (and Houllier's for his efforts while manager). I honestly don't think the majority of Liverpool fans would care if the manager was the much maligned 'Snoogie Doogie" if the team played well.
Thoughts?
Looking at your original post you seem to be the one using stats to make a rather weak attempt at pointing out Hodgson's suitability for LiverpoolFC. Both of the replies I read {I stopped at that point as you seem a man on a mission that is failing badly and struggling to make sense of the possibility you could be wrong} pose valid replies of which you cannot accept. Time will tell if he is as good/bad as others but in the mean time I look upon him with a sense of uneasiness.
ReplyDeleteLooking at your original post you seem to be the one using stats to make a rather weak attempt at pointing out Hodgson's suitability for LiverpoolFC. Both of the replies I read {I stopped at that point as you seem a man on a mission that is failing badly and struggling to make sense of the possibility you could be wrong} pose valid replies of which you cannot accept. Time will tell if he is as good/bad as others but in the mean time I look upon him with a sense of uneasiness.
ReplyDeleteThere is one key difference between Hodgson and Benitez / Houllier. That's Hodgson team are not playing as a team, there is a clear lack of belief, cohesiveness and desire for the shirt. I have been a fan for 35 years and this is the worst I have seen them play. Players like Lucs, Poulsen, Ngog, Maxi and Konchesky are clearly not worthy of the Red shirt. Hodgson is a mediocre manager, with mediorce ideas and ideal for medicore teams - he is not the quality that Liverpool Football CLub require. The recent wins were not emphatic or full of confidence they were lucky............. Roy you are the weakest link - good bye and when you go take your rubbish with you.
ReplyDeleteHm, looking at BenÃtez' CV it should become evident that he can work successfully with squads already in place at the time he took over (Valencia, LFC 2005) but isn't exactly great at building his own successful squad (e.g. LFC 2010).
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say that the squad BenÃtez inherited was that poor. Some minor corrections and it won the UEFA Champions League. If that is what you call poor then I don't know what is good. Also, the squad had (by a whisker) qualified for the CL. The team Hodgson inherited qualified for the Europa League because Portsmouth didn't apply and went bust. I won't tell you how many internationals there were in the team Rafa inherited as I think that you've got the point already.
ReplyDeleteEvery real Liverpool fan should boycott this site.
ReplyDeleteThis guy is obsessive with Rafa Benitez. His is a severe case of what I called Bash-Benitez Orgasmic epidemy spreading in the xenophobic British media circle as well ex-players lounges.
The Rafa virus has got into this guy's brain. He is consumed with an orgasmic urge to end the so-called Rafa myths which exist in his hullicinating mind.
He sees Benitez supporters as a gathering Mob for deifying the Spaniard, while he is blind to the fact of how the majority of the British football commentators aided by the Devils-worshiping media of consistently and persistently demonizing the same Spaniard.
It is certain that this call is futile, because the destructive virus in him would ensure that this is deleted.
If Benitez won 9 games, how come he had 5 home and 3 away victories (8) where was the other 1, lies, lies and damn statistics maybe, but at least make sure it is correct before using them.
ReplyDeleteI am prepared to give Hodgson a fair crack at turning things around, all Liverpool managers should get our full support....
With a substandard (reserve/youth) squad you forgot to mention.
ReplyDeleteJamie, credit for you tireless information's work, but maybe You should avoid to use general terms when you refer to Liverpool's fans.
ReplyDeleteJamie
ReplyDeleteThe stats while true don't tell the real story which is this.
Houllier had much much more of a rebuilding job than Hodgson, as to a smaller extend did Rafa.
Hodgson has a much better squad at his disposal than either of the other two managers and from actually going to the game, you could see what houlliers and Rafa's tactics actually where from the very firt game.
That still can't be said of Hodgson, in his opeing 18 games which according to you is no worse than Rafa or Ged, Hodgson has served up some of the worst perfomances from a liverpool team in decades West Brom, Sunderland, Northampton and Blackpool.
I'm not a hypicrite, just base my opinion on watrching the football and not Statistics, maybe you should do the same?
Hm, for a squad that only managed to qualify for the Europa League it is as competetive as the CL is for a squad that is so strong that it managed to qualify for the Champions League.
ReplyDeleteYou weren't complaining when we scrapped wins against no-hopers the season when we finished second under Rafa, were you? If I remember it correctly we won against Middlesboring (for example) by two goals scored in the dying seconds. Weren't Boro relegetad that or the following season?
ReplyDeleteWell I think in Houillers and Benitez time we were not in the relegation zone. They had to do reconstruct the team like all new managers do, but everybody has the right to have his opinion. For me Hodgson is not capable of running the Liverpool team. His team selection, buys are questionable. Letting go Insu, Aquilani,Dalla Valle,Nemeth... and replacing with who 30years old Poulsen, Konchesky. Common Kanwar
ReplyDeleteKanwar are you related to Hodgson?
ReplyDeleteBut last season we were treated with exciting high tempo attacking football, right?
ReplyDeleteFor the last time Jaimie, it's not knee-jerkism that we want Woy out. When he was appointed as LFC manager under increasingly difficult financial implications (you know a good man-manager who can get the best out of what little we have, incidentally what a great lie that was) and then effectively came in and talked about getting back into the top four as unattainable without rebuilding and then gave priority to the league but hinted at a cup run; that was the end of his tenure as manager of LFC - no ifs, no buts about it.
ReplyDeleteThe man clearly wasn't clever or shrewd enough to be the our boss. Ignoring the footballing side of things, he fails at the basics of transfer policy and business 101. You like supporting Liverpool Financial Club how come you didn't pick up on this?
What's the difference in prize money between 7th and 5th? A few million, not even the cost of replacing Rafa with Woy. What did we sacrifice in the process? A manager who could have vetoed the sales of every single player on the books until this storm was over. You might not have liked Rafa or wanted him to stay but in the best interests of Liverpool FC, you should have backed the man at the very minimum until H&G had gone. Turn on him after that, fine by me.
If you're going to fail/underperform/need time to rebuild, do it with the likes of Insua as he was effectively free (well he was already on the payroll and being a youngster you can guarantee two things: a) lower wages than other established players; b) potential to get better and; c) reasonable resale value) and not Konchesky who is the polar opposite. To rub salt in the wounds, we sent of 2 youngsters to Fulham including potentially the brightest prospect in the u18s team.
There's so much wrong with his basic philosophies that it defies belief he was offered the role ahead of the King. To top it off he managed to insult the fans multiple times, say all the wrong things and take unnecessary pot-shots at not only his predecessor (for no good reason, they're both effectively on the same side - it's not like he's now working for direct opposition in the EPL) but other fellow managers who have zero to do with the club (Rijkaard). To be a Liverpool manager isn't exclusive to results and performance, but even if it was: he's still the wrong man.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteTrue as those stats may be, you seem to not realize the reasons behind the unhappiness ofthe fans with Hodgsons management. You are making comparisons based on those stats but have either chose to ignore or have forgotten some very important facts.
Benitez took over at time when he was one of the most sought after managers in Europe. He had just guided a Valenica team not studded heavily in stars to two titles in the Spanish league. And Valenica won those titles playing an attractive brand of football too. Naturally there was much confidence in him when he first joined and hence despite makng drab signings in Josemi and Nunez and the slow start, the fans would have ben willing to give him their suport. Also when he took over, Owen was sold off for a measly 8 mil, Carra & Cisse picked up long term injuries and his other star player, a certain Stevie G, was struggling with a groin problem. While there may not have been problems off the field, on the field Rafa had some very glaring ones to deal with. Despite that, RB had the team playing more offensive football. The problem was that the mistakes the players kept making in the process. After 5 seasons of playing the long ball under GH, it was going to be a difficult transition to make. But there were signs of that changing. Now in comparison, RH did not have the same track record in football. Winning the league in Denmark is nowhere near as big an achievement as winning the liga. For all his years in football RH had never substantially neared RBs achievement. He also inherited a squad that was fit and had most of his players available. And most of all, untll the Blackburn game, there were no signs of team adopting a more positive approach. That we were sitting in our own half at home aganst Blackpool was just disgraceful.
Another thing you seem to have ignored is that RH was brought in NOT to make the same mistakes as RB and GH. He was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT and a step forward for the club. That means not making drab signings and injecting attacking impetus into the squad. He was about to buy Carlton Cole, a player in his mid 20s who has yet to hit 50 league goals in his career, for 10 mil pounds. Remember the Cisse blunder?
Its just too bad for RH that he took over from managers who had made some terrible mistakes. And so when the fans saw those mistakes being repeated they were going to be less patient with him than with GH or RB. After 20 years of the club under achieving, that is prefectly understandable.
So your stats, while true, do not lend credence to your argument that the fans are being hypocritical for your argument does not take into account a bigger picture. The fact that the fans were patient with RB and GH clearly show their amazing loyalty. The fact that they were singing the club anthem when 3-0 down at half time was the ultimate proof of their unwavering supoort. But even the most ardetn and loyal fans have lmited patience. That limit has been reached. Its up to RH to prove us wrong now. But until then the fans clearly have a right to get on his case. Upon beconing LFC manager RH should have realized this. Otherwise hes a fool. And if I were you Jamie, I would eat my words and admit that I was wrong and apologize.
Jamie RAFA is gone!!!!Stats Stats and lies as the saying goes.You miss the point It is not about 18 games. Liverpool and the fans can pride themselves of ALWAYS being supportive of any manager in SITU.Hiring a new manager in the majority means that expectations go up.Roy in 5 months has managed to allieanate just about every reasonable fan over and over again.The following should help leads us to WHY we are becoming disenchanted with current state of affairs:
ReplyDelete1.-6 goal diff
2.Torres was put to the sword more than once
3.Players had to eventually come out (Reina andJamie)and point out the fact that the supply line was non-existent
4.Meireles plays for Portugal in the middle and well too He was pushed out to the wing
5.Fighting spirit has gone out maybe the players have seen the expected result in a month or so
6.Failure to defend your own player against Fergie's insinuations
7.For an erudite man his press conferences are always defensive.
8.Let's not mention the players he bought in reference to his continuous railing against Rafa's squad(left-overs)A confidence builder for the players no doubt.When you go home and and you know the Manager doesn't rate you.Escape route anyone?
9.Always behind the curve notice his apollogy to Rafa and Torres support.
10.Late subs
11.We have no divine right to win but we are always expected to COMPETE right to the end
12.I am not sure that the owners imprint for the future invest in young talent goes hand in hand with Roy in believes in maturity.INSUA anyone 2 more young ones to Fulham in lieu of Konchesky deal.
13.While maybe tongue in cheek Al-Fayed from Fulham told us to prepare for the Championship
14.His appointment reeks of behind the scenes manipulation.
15.Usually as a new manger comes in a BUZZ is created players play out of their skins so to speak. We are MOROSE.No belief.We are getting the same old rubbish from some players always on the sites telling us how great the training is the expected improvements for the following game and then more DROSS.
We will continue to live in hope maybe John Henry has a plan.YNWA.
Now, now JK - you accuse others of being churlish - perhaps you should also refrain from being so. You simply can not compare CL to EL they are completly different levels, different quality, pressure etc. Suggest to make this fair you compare the first 10 PL games as at least that is relevant. I have a sneaky feeling you may have already done this hence your retort.
ReplyDeleteyou seem to have glanced over the fact that GH and RB both understood us (the matchgoers) they got it - something that can't be captured in words they got us and made us believe - they gave us for a moment in time the ability to dare to believe and not just dream. Roys comments in the media are really insulting to me, us every other ST holder and the history of the club.
He seems happy to slate other managers who have left - big no, no.
He seems happy to ignore our better youth players and belittle them and give them no confidence.
He plays deep negative football.
His comments in the media are a joke.
we havent lost at Bolton in 7years, yet he would have been happy with a draw - hes a mid table manager at best lovely fella - no issues there, but he has no idea how to hack the new world at a clun where nothing but a win will do (unrealistic as that is thats the reality)
Roy simply does not get "it" "us" or "the club" hes proving in his transfers, in his comments, in his approach he is not good enough.
<span>No matter who's side youre on in the petty argument the fact remains that under no manager since the 50's have we been in the relegation zone, not even for a day never mind a month, this is not the worst liverpool team ive seen in 25 years being a liverpool supporter, we have had less talented teams than the current one but never have i seen a liverpool team so held back tactically as the current one, the tactical approach by hodgson is pathetic even against vastly weaker teams.
ReplyDeleteHaving said this in the last 2 or 3 games we have improved slightly so i am willing to hold my breath and see if hodgson can continue the improvement in the net 3-4 games then its time to make a change if required so a new man can spend the january transfer funds.</span>
surely your argument is infact empty as you use a mickey mouse joke cup (unless you belive its on par with CL then please do share that view with us) compared against the far tougher CL?
ReplyDeletejust do the PL - but it sounds like you've already done that and expanded to support your mission in life in slagging Rafa at any chance?
you should be greatful - without Rafa - you would have no site :)
i dont understand y all people are comparing RH to Rafa all the time...Rafa's time was over at LFC...but now he's gone, we shall look ahead, not look back and moan...its the board who decides who to appoint and not...we all must now pray that RH should be sacked soon if the results dont come up in the next few days....
ReplyDelete<html>
ReplyDeleteJamie,
If Rafa won 3 away and 5 home games, where did he win the 9th?
<p> </p></html>
it's funny how you have written this article after 2 back to back wins jw.... personally I think you are talking rubbish.... it's not only about the results , it's about the way we are playing.... it's awful ay the moment .... so stop talking rubbish
ReplyDelete<html>
ReplyDeleteJamie,
If Rafa won 3 away and 5 home games, where did he win the 9th?
<p> </p></html>
<span>Additionally, in their first 4 months in charge, neither Houllier nor Benitez had to deal with the intolerable pressure and uncertainty that Hodgson has been forced to operate under: boardroom civil war; court cases to decide the club's future, with the media circus that goes with all that;</span>
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point here? Hodgson knew when he took the job that the club was being sold in fact on several occasions in comments to the press he stated that the club needed to be sold for the club to move forward. If anything there was less pressure on Hodgeson as noone expected LFC to push for the title but it was expected that we should be around to top 6 and playing decent football. Hodgeson is an experienced manager who can handle media pressure and all that comes with managing a top club so i'm not sure exactly what your point is here. Hodegson left Fulham were expectations were much lower to join a club that obviously was in crisis no one forced him to take the job.
<span>massively demotivated squad after atrocious previous season; the people that hired him leaving the club only months after starting the job; </span>
Again, this is just another excuse isn't it. It cannot have been unexpected for RH that Purslowe would leave once the club was sold and Broughton had always made it clear that he was only there to sell the club.
You argued in a post back in September that:
<span>I think a competitive Liverpool in every game is the least fans should expect. Whatever the quality of the team, injuries, off-field problems etc, the players that set foot on the field should be giving 110%; fighting for every ball; showing their desire and pride at playing for the club. <span>
Now tell me that the football played by LFC at the moment meets that definition. After the bolton game things may very well improve but for now we have been dreadful. I am not calling for Hodgeson's to get the sack because frankly there is probably no one better out there at the moment but what I would say is this Benititez and Houllier were both foreign managers new to the PL and so it is right that you give them a little bit of slack as they get used to the pace and difference of the PL. Hodegson is an experienced English manager who managed Fulham for a number of years that is why our start has been so disappointing. All of this talk about off-field distractions and sale of the club is just noise.</span></span>
In fact you made this very point yourself in a post back in September:
<span>End the defeatist mentality. Every 5 minutes we're hearing stuff from players and Hodgson about how tough it us etc; how the ownership situation is tough; how it'll take time to get things right etc. This needs to stop. As Shankly said, 'A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are'. No one connected with LFC is doing that at the moment. <span>
</span></span>
<span><span>Hodgeson should be doing better with the squad as you seem to suggest above and he has quite frankly no excuses for not bringing in a striker given that he had money to spend.</span></span>
I actually believe that this passion is admirable in some ways but I'm not in agreement with Jamie. I am a fan of his willingness to try to present his arguments based on facts but you're not a fan of Rafa are you? ;)
ReplyDeleteWe're all human and I think the baiting has gotten to Jamie. He runs the site, doesn't profit off it and does this in his own time. He's used some strong words which he admittedly isn't fond of others using but he has also been insulted quite a few times! I think he is frustrated and we should all ease up. If you believe your arguments to be worthy then both sides don't need to insult each other. We're all Liverpool fans!
Jamie is a fan and wouldn't have covered the takeover as well as he did if he was a 'Manc in disguise.' But Jamie, you have been pretty strong in your wording of things to people and I've been reading this site for quite a while.
I'll post my thoughts on the issue separately but it does sadden me to read this instead of a discussion of:
Comolli's success rate in transfers for Spurs, St Etienne and Arsenal in terms of success, resale value and ability. What ratio in terms of success/failure rate should be acceptable for a Director of Football? Should it be judged with more scrutiny than a manager considering it is one's sole remit? What will this mean for Roy in practical terms and beneath the surface. Dalglish has also been scouting players. Does he have a recruitment strategy role? What does this mean for Eduardo Macia? Do you feel that JW Henry's vision of shared responsibility will suit the club well?
Stuff like that really, the future. But I'll post on this issue first.
Sorry if it's been a bit long or overwinded but I've been reading for ages and this is my first post. Had a bit to get off my chest.
YNWA.
I didn't bother reading it to be honest. In all you assessment, do you at any time show where Houllier or Rafa left a squad with over 13 internationals (by the way Liverpool had the most or 2nd most number of player at the last world cup) languishing in the relegation zone?
ReplyDeleteThere you go again Jaimie... you talk about Rafa alot for somebody who claims to be unbiased etc. How can you compare the facts when the teams were totally different? Houlliers time there were fewer strong teams. Rafas time he was left with a very poor squad. His taking them to the final and winning says more about him than the squad. Hodgson was left with a much stronger team which underperformed and still got to 7th place so your arguments are as always based on your biased goggles and not objective analysis.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you think most fans are stupid and you are not should beg the question. Could it be the other way round? The fans all love Rafa because he always fought for LIverpool, even against his employers. He of course was stubborn and made mistakes but so does everybody else. The fans are against Roy not simply because of his record, but also because of his behaviour and his style of football, which is worse than even Fulham used to play.
Jaimie I want to back something up for you as well as counter a bit.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, to all I believe JK has actually stated that he DOES NOT think RH is right for LFC but also that the criticism is too much for his actual achievements or lack of them. Is that right JK?
Next point if you take the stats today regardless of who has been played whether it was the hardest possible teams or the easiest teams then stats as stats means that JK is correct in providing the facts. In this case the facts do speak for themselves. An example, currently Chelsea are 5 points ahead of the league and most have been saying how they will walk the league this was also the case in the year that we finished 2nd. However, crucially Chelsea had only played what is considered as the weaker teams but that did not stop most people at that point saying Chelsea were going to walk the league.
Like a Balance Sheet of a business it gives you a snap shot of where you are at that point not taking into account a big sale that will boost the coffers. From that view point give JK a little break from the OTT bashing.
Now JK I know how you have presented the facts and I understand you like to use a controversial headline at times to point something out which does not always reflect your opinion and then people misinterpret what you are ACTUALLY saying.
I think though to put some context into the overall debate as to why a great many LFC fans, me included, where happy to give RB and GH more grace is for the reasons that the squads the pair inherited were in the eyes of the fans not ready to compete at higher level so there was larger rebuilding process. In GH's case it was massive as Melwood needed rebuilding as well. RB had to take a team that occasionally finished in CL places and turn them into regular contenders. In short the expectation levels were a lot lower in fact the were much lower. On top of that as has been pointed out GH and RB in particular had distinctive recent successes at the time of their appointment which allowed a greater grace period. There was also less major threat from other teams and we had less BIG players in the team that were coveted by other teams.
Fast forward to today and RH does not have a CV, based purely on statistics of winning major trophies and managing top teams, that compares with GH or RB that is a fact. If you did not know any and had to shortlist based on CV alone it would be GH and RB in your top two. The next point LFC expectations, rightly or wrongly, are a lot higher. Today we dont expect to finish there or thereabouts but expect a minimum of a CL place. The squad has far more BIG players important to enable LFC to challenge at the top with the correct additions. The squad may not be perfect but there is more experience and quality than the vast majority of squads within the PL. Again using stats alone, regardless of what team was represented LFC had more internationals than any other PL team and I think second behind Barcalona so again the squad cannot be that dire either.
LFC had a bad season last season a very bad season, yet still finished wiithin a few points of 4th where Man City, Spurs and Villa had in their terms excellent and outstanding seasons. So with LFCs squad under performing and doing badly in was near enough on par with Man City Spurs and Villa been overly excellent. That does not therefore show a massive rebuilding programme required for RH. What RH has done is take an under performing squad and made it perform worse. There is a lack of fight, ambition, and performances are worse. Again I appreciate that RH needs time to get his ideas across but on his own request he asked to be judged after 10 games.
RH does not have the past successes to give him more grace. Once a fallen giant is on its [...]
Read the piece again Kanwar 'Hodgson hasn't won a single trophy in any major European Country'...........not that he hasn't won a trophy. Hodgson has won trophies in Sweden, Finland, Denmark, those huge footballing nations whose club teams always compete for the top European trophies and attract the biggest names in world football to their shores.
ReplyDeleteAlso, when have you taken the stats for Houllier from??? Because when he joined in 98, Roy Evans was still in charge and they had until November together before Evans left! That means Houllier had more than 4 months with the team before he took sole charge. The players were settled, were used to Evans and didnt have to deal with an entirely new coaching staff. If you have taken it from Houlliers first 18 games in sole charge, it would be reasonable to suggest that he should have achieved better results with it being in-season, he was used to the players.
Bottom line is that your argument is completely and fatally flawed. One of the games that Rafa lost included a game at home against Graz where we had already won the away leg comfortably enough to be able to lose the home game. You have missed Tottenham off the top teams that we played, away at Spurs on the opening day of the season. We played the Champions League runners up from the previous year as well as playing the Greek Champions and the team who had finished high up in the Spanish league the season before despite the presence of Valencia, Barcelona, Real, Atletico, Villareal. Hodgson has played Utrecht, Napoli and Steaua Bucharest.
In Hodgsons defence, we were unlucky against Arsenal but have also played away at Everton which Rafa didnt. We have beaten Bolton away but have lost to Northampton at home, Blackpool at home and were dreadful away at Man City suffering our heaviest defeat by them for years.
Ultimately, your statistics are completely flawed and have been twisted to create your own argument. Hodgson has overseen the worst start to a league season for Liverpool in 82 years and Liverpool had the lowest odds offered on them ever to be relegated.
He has come out fighting and we have won our last 2 but your idea that Hodgson is the only Liverpool manager under pressure is a myth. Every Liverpool manager is under immense pressure but what Hodgson has not done so far is to protect the players from abuse, he has had a go at a foreign reporter and in general, his comments to the media have insulted the fans intelligence, especially his comments after the Derby. His last press conference was exactly what a manager of this club should do which is retain his dignity, not respond to the media baiting that comes with this job and concentrate on Liverpool. I really want Hodgson to succeed because ultimately, this is my beloved club, the club I support, the club I spend money on, unlike many others and the club whose results can determine how good or bad my weekend is. Once again, can you answer me, when was the last time that you went to watch Liverpool play live and how many times have you been to Anfield?
No, you are just trying to make a distinction because you want to put Hodgson in a bad light. When comparing managers, games from all competitions should be taken into account; this is the only fair way to do it. Anyone can see that.
ReplyDeleteAnd you can say all this categorically after 4 months, despite the fact Liverpool are unbeaten in 13 out of 18 games?! Nonsense.
ReplyDeleteI am not comparing the relative strengths of the CL and the Europea League. or saying one is stronger/better than the other. I am comparing competitive games from the starts of all 3 managers. People raising the issue of CL v Europa league are just making excuses.
You're right - the squad Benitez inherited was not poor in the slightest. That is yet another myth peddled by the Pro-Benitez Cult.
ReplyDeleteI am demonstrating bias?! The amazing irony is lost on you I can see. I compared all three managers on level playing field (i.e. all competitive games) and you want me to exclude European games? Why/ because YOU are biased towards Benitez.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is if Hodgson had a better league record than Benitez right now you would be saying other things like 'But you have to take out Bolton, and Blackburn because blah blah blah. Basically, people like you come up with whatever distinction fits what you want to see based on the figures.
I have acknowledge that Benitez worked under difficult circumstances several times in recent articles. That's the point: People were moaning constantly about Hicks and Gillet and the uncertain ownership situation, saying Benitez couldn't prosper as a result; saying that bad form is not his fault os a result of ownership etc.
ReplyDeleteThis is the hypocrisy: Fans give Benitez a pass because of that but completely ignore it when it comes to Hodgson, who has worked under even more intense pressure. For the Pro-Benitez Cult, it's okay to use the ownership situation as an excuse for bad form; they do not extend the same reasoning to Hodgson though. As I said, utter hypocrisy.
<p><span>
ReplyDelete<p>
</p></span>
</p>
Just did a quick check and RB's record is 5 home wins and 4 away wins - I guess Jamie will have to amend his third comment on the stats.
ReplyDeleteThat's hilarious - you talk about undermining hypocritical fans when it is fans constantly undermining the manager. Fans who call for Hodgson's head after 4 months deserve to be undermined.
ReplyDeleteYou said this originally
So what you are trying to say is that<span></span> Europa league is just as cometetive as Champions league right
No fair minded person reading the article could come up with an interpretation like that. In no way have I argued that the Europa League is just as competitive; i have stated that it is a competitive competition that yields competitive games. That is a fact. When comparing the starts of all three managers it must be done on a level playing field, i.e. all competitive games.
This is totally fair, but those with an agenda against Hodgson won't have it because they want him to appear bad, and they want Benitez to appear good. So the start making ridiculous distinctions; trying to introduce invalid variables; anything to change the factual stats.
The facts speak for themselves: Hodgson's team are unbeaten in 13 out of 18 games; his home and away record is no worse than Benitez or Houllier when they took over; his overall wins are practically the same as Benitez and better than Houllier.
If fans had any grace and fairness at all they would acknowledge this. Instead, they still try and denigrate the man, who is incidentally MANAGER OF LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB.
It's a disgrace, and an embarrassment. If it was the end of the season it would be understandable, but 4 months and NINE LEAGUE GAMES INTO THE SEASON?!
An utter disgrace.
<span>Roy was brought in to steady the ship as we all know. Now I am certain it wasn't to steady the ship in the Europa League or even the League Cup. I am not happy with the catastrophic defeat to Northampton at all. It was shocking. However, I am sure most fans could put that result into perspective if the league form was decent. We fans do want good results in both competitions but the focus for Roy was the premier league. His press conferences and selections have indicated this.
ReplyDeleteWe know Houllier has very little to do with this. This is about Roy and Rafa. This is where all the arguments have settled on. We all know it so I'm not going to include Houllier's results. Rafa had a poor season last season where we finished 7th. We all know that Rafa did not leave players who should finish below the top half of the table let alone in the relegation places. Remember, Rafa got sacked for finishing 7th. An under-performance. Yes, we went out of the Champions League early but he was judged on the league results. So surely, his successor should be judged on the league results. What else would Roy Hodgson have to be steadying? Not the Europa League surely?
Rafa Benitez’s first ten games in the Premier League:
Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 3
Points: 17
Goals scored: 18
Goals conceded: 10
Goal difference: +8
Roy Hodgson’s first ten games in the Premier League:
Won 3, Drawn 3, Lost 4
Points: 12
Goals scored: 10
Goals conceded: 14
Goal difference: -4
Also, I think we know that we're Liverpool football club and although Jamie wrote “it’s fair to say that the principle way in which football manager are judged is results” Liverpool has a higher standard. After all, if it was just results there would be no romance! Style in play is desirable but would be compromised in the case of results a la Mourinho. But poor results with poor football is unacceptable for a club of our stature. Failure to defend our players or show ambition does not befit a proud and successful club. Nobility does and Roy has shown some at times (though has surprised me with some barbed comments).
So with that, I'll conclude my argument with further proof of Roy Hodgson's poor performance so far:
http://kunaldua.posterous.com/chalkboards-how-liverpool-are-playing-differe
Those are two of our three world class players who are being made less effective and contributing to poor performances and thereby results. Even if you disregard the non-result based analysis, then the results still do not stand up. I'm not particularly happy with Roy Hodgson and I have not seen anything to convince me that progress is currently being made or is on the horizon. However, I would like to be proven wrong because I'm a Liverpool fan! If he does well then we do well. Club first for me.
YNWA</span>
Sam, if you deliberately lie about what I post then I will just ban you. if you can't be bothered to be fair then I can't be bothered to keep your comments on the site.
ReplyDeleteI have NOT just 'come out fighting in the last two games'. Look back through the post history - I've posted positive articles defending Hodgson ever since the start of the season. I have been totally consistent.
You say it but why? Why is there a reason to do that? If I was comparing the strengths of those comeptitions then you'd be right. I am not doing that; it is about how each manager fared in their first 18 competitive games at the club. This is a simple point; you and others are complicating it because you refuse to be fair. Any exception you can try and make to fiddle the figures into making Benitez look stronger and you'll do it.
ReplyDeleteThe proof of this is that NO ONE has suggested taking out Houllier's UEFA CUP games; just Hodgson's. And why is that? There's no need because Benitez's figures are slightly better than Houllier's, so no one cares.
It's so transparent and laughable you ca only be amused at the disgraceful hypocrisy of Benitez's fans.
Who is talking about quality of opposition? It is merely an indicator of which top teams we've played in the first 18 games. This is relevant.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like the reason there has been such an outpouring of opposition to this article is because it doesn't take into account what has been seen on the pitch over the past 4-5 months, which no-one could argue, on the vast majority has been pretty absymal.<span></span>
ReplyDelete4-5 months?! 5 months ago Benitez was stll in charge (or had just been sacked). 4 months ago, Hodgson had been in the job for 3 days. It has been ony 3 months of competitive games, so please stop trying to make it sound worse than it actually is.
The reason there has been opposition is simple: The Pro-Benitez Cult is once again trying to make its presence felt; defending their deity against *anything* that doesn't make him look like a messiah; trying to twist the stats and introduce exceptions that make Hodgson look worse and Benitez look better.
And you seem to be forgetting something: compared to the number of people who actually read the articles, the percentage of people who comment is minscule. The vocal minority trying to twist the facts is dwarfed by the tens of thousands of people who will read, consider, and then make up their own minds.
That is what is important, not the biased ramblings of the Pro-Benitez Cult (I'm not including you in that by the way)
The real fact of the matter is that, like most things in life, situations rarely stay the same from one day (or season) to the next. For example, the quality of teams Houllier faced in his first 18 games were different to Benitez's and Benitez's were different to Hodgson's. Same goes for the quality of the Liverpool players in the sides of Houllier, Benitez and Hodgson in their first 18 games. There are degrees of difference and these factors aren't quantifiable (hence there isn't any real value in comparing them like for like)
According to YOU. There is definitely value in comparing the first 18 games in the sense that it shows how the idiots calling for Hodgson's head are way way over the top. Liverpool are unbeaten in 13 out of 18 games under Hodgson. Does that not matter?! If you extrapolate that over an entire season we're looking at excellent numbers. No one is saying that is the way it's going to go but calling for a manager's head with such a record is ridiculous.
Read MY comments again Kanwar!!!!!! 'He has come out fighting'- HODGSON has come out fighting!!!! I am being entirely fair, read my comments back and when you have taken the time to read them, you can choose to respond. Can you also respond to my last issue, when was the last time you were at Anfield and how many times have you been to watch Liverpool play live?
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to do when you know how great a club like ours can be.<span></span>
ReplyDeleteLike last season?
There is one key difference between Hodgson and Benitez / Houllier. That's Hodgson team are not playing as a team, there is a clear lack of belief, cohesiveness and desire for the shirt. <span></span>
ReplyDeleteGod, the blinkered, unfair, inaccurate delusion is beyond belief!
Are you suggesting that last season was display of 'belief, cohesiveness and desire for the shirt'?!
You are brainwashed, and incapable of being fair. I'm not going to wate my time debating with someone like that.
You're both right - I aded up the away games incorrectly. Doesn't make any difference to the point though.
ReplyDeleteHi Rick - I don't use general terms for LFC fans; I use general terms like 'Pro-Benitez Cult' for a very specific minority of fanatics.
ReplyDeleteComplete and utter inaccurate, biased and reactionary. None of what you say is true in the slighted. I can't be bothered to address the same points again; I'm sure someone else with a fair-minded approach will address your points at some stage.
ReplyDeleteDj - when you can make your points without attacking Hodgson in a personal manner your comments will stay up.
ReplyDeleteI will say this again: Anyone who personally ridicules ANY LFC manager/player will have their comments deleted.
Hey C-Stars - thanks for posting :)
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of other sites out there that will discuss the stuff you mention; and I will to at some stage. However, my inner sense of injustice will not allow this unfair personal and professional character assassination of Hodgson to pass without some kind of defence. And as long as people are being unfair about him - or anyone connected with LFC - I will defend him/them.
Jamie, you made a good comparison. However we have to also consider time changes, 72% ( Houllier) and 66% (Benitez) did not leave us firmly entrenched in bottom three for the first time since i supported the Red banner (22 years), well in fact Roy went further than that setting records of league position and losses.
ReplyDeleteI guess the majority of the fans called for his head after watching the football played in such negativity and lack of bite and shape and i admit my faith was also heavily shaken seeing how we played like amatuers against Blackpool and other lower teams.
After seeing the games against Blackburn and Bolton, i can finally see the shape and intent...We have heard so much about how different and hands on his training is compared to what the players were used to under Rafa so i will say lets take the first few matches as bedding in and give him the chance and support he requires.
In any case, i can't see anyone way ahead of him in terms of reputation and capability who can come in NOW to change things around. Pellegarini? Rijkaard? Klinsmann??? I hope not...Hiddink...yes yes but even having him will not see immediate changes...in any case the season is lost and we can only hope for a recovery to CL position and hopefully we still have Fernando and Stevie at the end of this season.
I respect that on the face of it the statistics do present a decent comparison of Roy's start, to Rafa and Houllier. However, working all day with stats - as I do, I also know how true the statement "lies, damned lies, and statistics". So there is an argument for both sides truth be told.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you Jamie in that more considered thought of context is needed by all. However, by your very argument I'd say that we consider the amount of pressure Rafa was under from the owners the very season we finished 2nd. I'd argue the amount of time he had to spend sidestepping politics must have had a bearing - more so than the infamous "rant" the lazy mass media blames for us losing the title. Put in to context, Roy has not had to contend with quite the same challenges - not least as he knew exactly what he was walking in to (and could easily have removed himself from it by being the guy brought in to "steady the ship" etc).
Instead I feel Roy has been a culprit of allowing the players a get out clause from the very start, ironically for him, because of the importance of language. We've heard countless times about needing the ownership issues resolved so we could challenge and improve the squad. I'm sure it's been mentioned on here how negativity affects performance. The players have had a perfect excuse laid at their doors from the offset, when I'd say these things shouldn't enter their minds once they cross the white line.
I also find <span><span><span>C Stars</span></span></span><img></img>'s analysis to be a fair one - illustrating the other factors we need to consider: all of us can stomach a team playing well and losing - but what we've witnessed so far has been a struggling side, not playing to their strengths. We are Liverpool! Of course all that can change on sunday - I certainly hope so.
I think the lack of ambition on the pitch has been mirrored in the transfer market - no matter what he goes on to do, I'll always argue Poulsen is merely blocking the chances of others. And sadly it seems Aquilani was thrown in as some sort of sweetener perhaps to a mindless deal (you can't tell me Spearing is worse for example) - scandalous decision when you consider our lack of creativity and ambition in the final third, Aquilani is a class act - witness most of his games for us, constant movement, demanding the ball, taking responsibility, taking risks with passes. I personally think he'd have been more settled this season in our squad, especially damning given the start cole has unfortunately made.
To contextualise our transfers: the money for both Konchesky (he's a decent player btw) and Poulsen could have brought in another striker, while we kept hold of Insua (homegrown, young etc) and Aurelio for example.
Just a thought.
Well actually his home and away record is. Take away Europa and Champions league for a minute and lets focus on the Premier League. Rafa after 10 games, not 9, as we are cuurently on the 11th week, had recorded 5 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws.
ReplyDeleteRoy has had 3 wins 3 draws and 4 losses. Now neither really litt up the EPL on their first few months in charge of Liverpool, but for someone who has entered a new league and new style of play, and then comparing his stats to someone has spent several years with different teams in the EPL you have to conclude that by stats alone, which is your whole argument, you would have to conclude that Rafa was already in a better position.
I have already stated that i am not a big fan of Rafas, but i will once again point out that after 10 weeks in charge, improvement in playing style, and confidence was apparent even in the early stages of his tenure. The same cannot be said about Roy. And after the dismal signings, alongside the absolutely appaling style of football we are playing, i can understand many fans disenchantmant at Roy, as he is in charge, and he is the one who should be instilling confidence within the fans and the players. Something that he is simply not doing.
From his ridiculous press conferences blaming everyone from the fans to the players t o benetiz and the ongoing sale saga, not once has he stood up and said that his "tactics" don't seem to be working and a change is needed.
At least Rafa, as arrogant as he was, acknowledged his faults, and never put the blame on others, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS stood up for our players, especially against Fergie, something Roy is not prepared to do.
So this is why the fans have such a negative attitude towards Roy. And this is why they do not care to back him, as we have with every manager prior.
I can't make you understand this, you either get it or you don't. and so far, by your comments to others on this subject, you don't seem to get it...
Jaimie, this is the first time that I have read your article and I didn't realise the amount of hate that there is for Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteAbout the European games, yes, there were against lower opposition but there were competitive games, whether the critics like it or not. Also, the format for Europe has changed a lot over the years where a lot of big teams such as Juventus had to go through qualification for the Europa League. Under Benitez, we had to qualify for the Champions League every year bar one.
About Hodgson's CV, it is irrelevant but Hodgson managed three countries (albeit minor ones) and Inter Milan (twice). The Inter owner, Massimo Moratti, has a lot of respect for Hodgson because he saved them from relegation in the 90s.
Hodgson has had a tough start and, while I'm not happy with some of the results, he's a good manager. Unfortunately, he seems to be one of those managers that needs time, at least a season, to achieve success. The question is, will he get it?
You know what I hate about statistics, it is because they can all be twisted to the view you are most accustomed to. Paul Tomkins is an expert on his side, and you are on yours.
ReplyDeletePT was always trying to make everything look like sunshine and rainbows with his statistics regarding Benitez and I have written many mails to him and asking for an answer - never got one back! I remember so many times when I question how is it possible for us to beat Top teams in the World, i.e Real Madrid, United, Chelsea, Barcelona, Juventus, AC Milan, etc etc but then losing out on points 4days later against Stoke, Reading, Tottenham, M'Boro and the likes?
Reading PT articles afterwards was always an excuse of either tiredness, 10men behind the ball, etc etc etc...
I just got so fed up with the guy I stopped visiting his site. Because there is only his point of view - which i must add, he is fully entitled to have.
Then at that time around 2008, I found yours and I've been here reading and sometimes even posted a comment as a guest. I did appreciate your writing, since you seemed to be the opposite of PT and adressing the real issues.
However somewhere in the end of 2009 - you cracked - the site was down for months. Now when you are back, everything i am reading is about defending yourself and the tone in the comment section in your replies are somewhat awful at times.
All i want to say JK - You are not alone - No Liverpool Fan walks alone. But please get back to your old ways and let the past be the past - There is a bright future ahead of us - a red future
What is the relevance of the top teams? is it that they are stronger and therefore harder to get a result against (in other words better quality team). What is your reason for putting them in other than to show that certain managers faced harder (better quality) teams than other managers.
ReplyDeleteIn the interests of being fair (<span><span>free</span> <span>from</span> <span>blemish,</span> <span>imperfection,</span> <span>or</span> <span>anything</span> <span>that</span> <span>impairs</span> <span>the</span> <span>appearance,</span> <span>quality,</span> <span>or</span> <span>character)</span></span> should you not look at both top teams, middle teams and lower teams (i.e. the quality of the teams they played - which is the arguement put my most).
its been 20yrs now since a premierleague title...the truth is...those stats point to a fact that the current manager is just a bland as his 2 predecessors...hence not good enough!
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of Paul Tomkins and Jamie Kanwar by the way BUT I don't like the vitriol that goes on. It's too much and statistics can always be rationalised to support arguments. But attractive style of play and picking up trophies can't be argued with.
ReplyDeleteWe can't argue with Chelsea doing the double or blowing away teams by scoring over 100 goals. We can't argue with Wenger's responsible stewardship of Arsenal and attractive football. Nor can we ignore Barcelona's treble (with admirable beautiful football) or Inter's (with tactical football - admirable is up to debate) just as we can't ignore Ferguson's serial success and uncanny ability to keep finding gems. Hernandez anyone?
So I agree with <span><span>Tzar</span> in that we should look ahead of us. Rafa is our past and Roy is a transitional manager. Wouldn't it be nice to all agree that Liverpool football club plays football that can be described as "pass and move" and tell our rivals to form an orderly queue behind us. Just like the league table! Nobody would be able to argue with that just like nobody can argue that we didn't win major titles playing good football.</span>
YNWA
So you think being unbeatten (regardless of how you play) 13 out of 18 games would be a good record over a season. When extrapolated that would mean you would lose just over 10 games in a premier league season (38 games). Therefore, mid table form
ReplyDeleteOk JK seeing as you aren't willing to do so I'll post the first 10 league matches under each manager.
ReplyDeleteGerard Houlier:
4W-4-D-2L
Rafa Benitez:
5W-2D-3L
Roy Hodgson:
3W-3-D-4L
I believe that is a more accurate comparison because clearly it is the performance in the league that has everyone up in arms. Now I am in no way claiming that Rafa is the man for the job. I never liked the way he conducted his affairs while he was at liverpool personally. I mean I thank him for Istanbul and for the FA Cup final v West Ham. Both were great accomplishments and stunning games to say the least. But he never really convinced me that he was going to be the one who ended out league drought (hence my focus on league stats). I also don't think that Roy will be either.
Now I also realize that our current squad, recent ownership crisis and other short comings will mean possibly another few years of rebuilding. So I do not forsee us challanging for the league for another 2 seasons which I can accept. But I am not convinced that Roy can build us a squad that will challange for league honours. Do I feel as though he should be given more time? Yes. Do I feel as though it should be for the entire season? Well currently no. I say we give him till Christmas (he has begun to turn things around).
Benitez lost 14 league games in his first season (!). We lost 11 league games last seaosn. So what is your point? Did you call for Benitez's head after 14 league losses in 2004-5?
ReplyDeleteits been 20yrs now since a premierleague title...the truth is...those stats point to a fact that the current manager is just a bland as his 2 predecessors...hence not good enough!
ReplyDeleteWell, according to some people it must have been poor because it only qualified for the Champions League, oh... I for one don't get that kind of thinking at all. They disparage Houllier to make BenÃtez look better, as some kind of Messiah.
ReplyDeleteWell, according to some people it must have been poor because it only qualified for the Champions League, oh... I for one don't get that kind of thinking at all. They disparage Houllier to make BenÃtez look better, as some kind of Messiah.
ReplyDeleteI think one of the problems is the style of play Roy has implemented, as in have the team sitting back REALLY deep and not pressing the opposition for the ball. Therein we are made to look like underdogs at home. That is why the fans have been chanting 'attack, attack, attack.' And no width? Loaning out Aquilani when many fans (maybe not you) wanted to see him benefit from a full pre-season etc. He's playing well for Juve right now. Ah well, we've got Poulsen in exchange.
ReplyDeleteDo we have comparison of the first ten premiership games? I know the times did one but it was incorrect (shame on you Patrick Barclay).
I'm not slagging Roy by any means, I just dislike his 'sit deep' approach with no wingers. It may have got plaudits at Fulham, but we need to attack teams.
No I was busy celebrating a champions league win. But your comment was over a season these are excellent numbers which is just wrong (as you pointed out they were not excellent numbers last year or in 2004-05). If you wish others to be fair you must be fair too
ReplyDeleteUnderstand - But the other way of looking at it is 3 points for a win 1 point for a draw: RB would have 30 points RH 29 and GH 27 - rather than as an unbeaten % showing RB at 66% is unfair - i would rather win 1 and lose 2 than draw 2 and lose 1 - after all 3 points are better than 2, don't you agree?
ReplyDeleteIf Hodgson has been playing in EL it's not of faulth of Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteIf Hodgson has been playing in EL it's not faulth of Hodgson.<span>
ReplyDelete</span>
Appart from the fact that RB won 33% more away games than RH - aren't stats great
ReplyDeleteAgain, if Roy hodgson has been playing El Football it's not faulth of Roy Hodgson.
ReplyDelete"QUALIFICATION OF EUROPA LEAGUE"
ReplyDeleteThe same achievement reached by Rafa last season: so what's the problem?
I haven't been banned have I?
ReplyDeleteIf Hodgson has been playing in EL it's not of faulth of Hodgson.<span>
ReplyDelete</span>
Ok, from this point of view, You're right.
ReplyDelete<span><span><span>
ReplyDelete<span>14.08</span>
Tottenham-Liverpool
1-1
Cisse (38)<span>21.08</span>Liverpool-Manchester City
2-1
Baros (48), Gerrard (75)<span>29.08</span>Bolton-Liverpool
1-0
<span>11.09</span>Liverpool-West Bromwich
3-0
Gerrard (16), Finnan (42), Garcia (60)<span>20.09</span>Manchester U-Liverpool
2-1
O'Shea (54 og)<span>25.09</span>Liverpool-Norwich
3-0
Baros (23), Garcia (26), Cisse (63)<span>03.10</span>Chelsea-Liverpool
1-0
<span>16.10</span>Fulham-Liverpool
2-4
Knight og (49), Baros (72), Alonso (81), Biscan (90)<span>23.10</span>Liverpool-Charlton
2-0
Riise (52), Garcia (74)<span>30.10</span>Blackburn-Liverpool
2-2
Riise (7), Baros (54)<span>06.11</span>Liverpool-Birmingham
0-1
</span></span></span>
Mike, these are respectable point.
ReplyDeleteFor some fans Who really love the Liverpool's way, the problem is not a good & polite critical approach, but the assasination of the Man, of the character perpetuated by some "So - Called Supporters" or the minority of Pro Rafa Cult, Who are assasinating half a century of good old fashionabile Liverpool's way and They are ruining the high reputation of Liverpool Fans, renowned in the World & Uk as classes, loyal & sensitive Fans.
You're right that sacking a manager after 4 months in charge is a bit reactionary but Roy does need to improve results as well as performances in the league to keep his job by Christmas. If we are languishing in the bottom half of the table then action will be need but only IF. We are better than that with the players we have. We've got a top 6/7 squad. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
ReplyDeleteAs for character assassinations, he has been harshly treated in some comments. However, he has made some surprisingly barbed and bewildering comments which surprised me. To be fair, I think he has been surprised at the scale of the job and he's starting to buck up more in his press conferences. What's been interesting is his willingness to talk to the press and he's slowly starting to realise that at a big club they're hungrier for juicier stories and creative interpretation of manager's words.
I still don't agree with your analysis completely but I get where you're coming from and you've confirmed it now. Fans think Hicks and Gillette are a plague, which they were due to the leveraged buyout and their misjudgement of our club. However, I dare anyone to provide millions out of their own pocket for players or use their money to buy a club and not want to profit sensibly. Hopefully, NESV will show sense like they have seemed to so far. They want to profit from selling the club in a decade or through spin off financial benefits for their other ventures but they're not in it for love! Critical realism is sometimes needed because when the two yanks came in we were so happy!
Rafa did a good job by and large but we are Liverpool football club with 18 league titles and 5 crowns of europe. Just like I judge Roy by a higher standard and a harsher standard, so must Rafa be judged. At any most clubs he would be an unqualified success but here, he was moderately successful. He undid all he built up in his final two seasons robbing him of his crowning glory which should have been his in 2008/2009 by only letting the shackles go when we were chasing in the 2nd half of the season (Robbie Keane was a mistake but we still should have won the league that season) and ruining another crack at the title by isolating a loyalist (Xabi would never have left, he's similar to Pepe and Nando), buying a talented player who was injured (we weren't in a position to wait for him like Chelsea or Man United) and swapping a solid right back in Arbeloa for a similar one with a loss of 14-15 million pounds.
I mean looking back, what a spine we had! Torres up front. Gerrard behind. Xabi and Mascherano. Carra and Agger in the centre. Pepe in goal. Rafa just need to look left for improvements to first eleven. Kuyt and Arbeloa were solid on the right. After 5 years, he shouldn't have allowed the team to break up like that. It was his fault. Benayoun was there too. That's not a question of net spending or starts to the season. That's not a consequence of strife at the club. It was Rafa.
His excellent work brought us up to that point with a Champions League, a FA Cup, another champions league final, A Super Cup and a carling cup final in his first season too. That was great. He just needed to keep what he had worked on honing. Just tweak. Let's not forget we have a lot of very promising youngsters at the club in Suso, Silva, Robinson, Wisdom, Sterling, Wilson(identified by Rafa), Shelvey (identified by Rafa), Pacheco, Kelly, Amoo, Ayala, Ngog (who we forget is a youngster). I would have added Insua, Kaca and dalla Valle to that list too) and players who are young in their respective positions - the improving Lucas and centrebacks Martin Skrtel, Daniel Agger. He doesn't have the chance to finish his work overseeing these youngsters to the first team squad. I have [...]
Please explain how I personally ridiculed a Liverpool manager/player?
ReplyDeleteuhh ???? it's you who is comparing the first 18 games ... trying to make out they are similar.... when its pointed out that may be it's not ... suddenely you change the criteria...
ReplyDeleteJust as I did, you correctly got on Benitez's back for his on the field failures from early on last season, irrespective of the off the field issues. Now I am on Hogson's back in much the same manner, irrespective of the off the field issues again. To me, they was not a valid excuse for Benitez's failures and they were/are not a valid excuse for Hodgson's failure's either. No hypocrisy there.
ReplyDeleteHodgson is no more deserving of patience four months into the job than Benitez was four months into his final year. To say that he is more deserving because he is a new manager (although he was sold to us as somebody who was short-term, would hit the ground running and quickly "stabilise the club"), than the manager that had finished 2nd in the league four months previously and in spite of the fact that he has achieved relatively little in recent years and shown little signs for optimism during his short tenure comes across as more hypocritical to me in fact!
Being gift-wrapped the position only carries so much weight - you have to earn respect, faith and trust in your abilities with your words AND actions, and Hodgson is failing in that respect. It's nothing to do with hypocrisy, it's just a simple fact that a number of fans have no faith that Hodgson will ultimately deliver what we want and so don't want to waste a couple of years waiting around to be proven right.
Btw, you can continue trying to paint all of us that have no faith in Hodgson as irrational, overly emotional members of the IRWT cult, but the simple fact is that there are significantly more fans that want us to prematurely end the Hodgson experiement than those that wanted Benitez to hold on to his job...
ReplyDeleteWanting Roy out does not automatically equate to wanting Rafa back...
<span>
ReplyDeleteIt was my comments that were quoted in this article. I explained in detail why I made them and highlighted examples of the author's similar hypocrisy. As per usual, one event is covered.
I was also at pains not to mention any of our previous managers and evaluate Roy on his own merits. It seems that, according to Kanwar, negative football was dull and lifeless last year but acceptable this year, as it is not under his nemesis.
I was under the impression that this campaign (and it is a campaign, look at the numbers of articles for evidence) to downplay Rafa and Gerard was for a means to an end. It was for better football, a better Liverpool side.
Now it appears none of that is relevant, the only relevant thing to Kanwar is that 'it isn't as bad as it was'.
You can pull all the figures about starts you want, incorporating non like for like games. The reality is this is the worst start made in the league by a Liverpool manager and team in my lifetime and wins against lowly European opposition in July isn't going to change that.
I have asked this question before and it has never been answered by anyone who supports Roy staying - name one single area that has improved on the pitch. Attack, defense, build up play, momentum, individual performances. Anything. Anything at all.
</span>
<span>You're right that sacking a manager after 4 months in charge is a bit reactionary but Roy does need to improve results as well as performances in the league to keep his job by Christmas. If we are languishing in the bottom half of the table then action will be need but only IF. We are better than that with the players we have. We've got a top 6/7 squad. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
ReplyDeleteAs for character assassinations, he has been harshly treated in some comments. However, he has made some surprisingly barbed and bewildering comments which surprised me. To be fair, I think he has been surprised at the scale of the job and he's starting to buck up more in his press conferences. What's been interesting is his willingness to talk to the press and he's slowly starting to realise that at a big club they're hungrier for juicier stories and creative interpretation of manager's words.
I still don't agree with your analysis completely but I get where you're coming from and you've confirmed it now. Fans think Hicks and Gillette are a plague, which they were due to the leveraged buyout and their misjudgement of our club. However, I dare anyone to provide millions out of their own pocket for players or use their money to buy a club and not want to profit sensibly. Hopefully, NESV will show sense like they have seemed to so far. They want to profit from selling the club in a decade or through spin off financial benefits for their other ventures but they're not in it for love! Critical realism is sometimes needed because when the two yanks came in we were so happy!
Rafa did a good job by and large but we are Liverpool football club with 18 league titles and 5 crowns of europe. Just like I judge Roy by a higher standard and a harsher standard, so must Rafa be judged. At any most clubs he would be an unqualified success but here, he was moderately successful. He undid all he built up in his final two seasons robbing him of his crowning glory which should have been his in 2008/2009 by only letting the shackles go when we were chasing in the 2nd half of the season (Robbie Keane was a mistake but we still should have won the league that season) and ruining another crack at the title by isolating a loyalist (Xabi would never have left, he's similar to Pepe and Nando), buying a talented player who was injured (we weren't in a position to wait for him like Chelsea or Man United) and swapping a solid right back in Arbeloa for a similar one with a loss of 14-15 million pounds.
I mean looking back, what a spine we had! Torres up front. Gerrard behind. Xabi and Mascherano. Carra and Agger in the centre. Pepe in goal. Rafa just need to look left for improvements to first eleven. Kuyt and Arbeloa were solid on the right. After 5 years, he shouldn't have allowed the team to break up like that. It was his fault. Benayoun was there too. That's not a question of net spending or starts to the season. That's not a consequence of strife at the club. It was Rafa.
His excellent work brought us up to that point with a Champions League, a FA Cup, another champions league final, A Super Cup and a carling cup final in his first season too. That was great. He just needed to keep what he had worked on honing. Just tweak. Let's not forget we have a lot of very promising youngsters at the club in Suso, Silva, Robinson, Wisdom, Sterling, Wilson(identified by Rafa), Shelvey (identified by Rafa), Pacheco, Kelly, Amoo, Ayala, Ngog (who we forget is a youngster). I would have added Insua, Kaca and dalla Valle to that list too) and players who are young in their respective positions - the improving Lucas and centrebacks Martin Skrtel, Daniel Agger. He doesn't have the chance to finish his work overseeing these youngsters to the first team squad. I [...]
I agree with C-Stars.
ReplyDeleteIt has all become a cycle of bile and one upmanship. Nobody comes out clean in this. Just as Roy showed some class and apologised to Rafa and has called an end of the "feud" Liverpool fans should do the same and focus on the future. As much as Roy has disappointed me, I am glad he has put this to bed and is now focusing on getting things right. But we can't keep this slanging match going on for much longer, there are more important and pressing concerns. Rafa has said his piece, so has Roy. We now have new owners, a new director of football who has a very good track record of bringing good talent. I will always support the team whoever is managing but if the results do not represent where the club should be (At least 6th place) by say Christmas, then you would have to have a hard look at Roy to see whether he should remain in charge.
By constantly referring to him as 'woy', which ridicules the way he speaks. I said yesterday (and many times in the past) that personal ridicule of managers is not allowed on this site. If you're going to criticise do it fairly.
ReplyDeleteSent from iPhone
Hi Jamie
ReplyDeleteLike you have said before the premiership table does not lie and we have not been in the relegation zone after 9 games in a long while. Dont get me wrong I am with you that hodgson needs supporting but the fans frustations should be understood as well. Like I have replied many times in many of your articles Hodgson is to blame for the fans calling his head.
In four months in charge he has done what:
1) took us into relegation zone
2) Used the media very badly
3) called liverpool fans a nusiance (or somethng like that)
4) failed to defend his top players against other managers
5) Plus commented on torress sale to united 'as we ll cross that bridge when we come to it' (ultimate sin its the mancs for goodness sake)
Hodgson has come to liverpool and yep his results have not been great like other managers and yep hes had other pressures to deal with but you know this liverpool way that we keep going on about and the one we lost under rafa, hodgson has distanced himself further from this way.
Idology - we dont follow benetiz we follow shanks and paisley. Shanks was a inspirational figure and we use to love his press conferences one after the other. Then you got paisley who was more silent but let his talking be done by his team on the pitch.
Liverpool fans and this rafa cult are the same liverpool fans that have been supporting the team for years. They loved houllier as much as they loved benetiz when he was incharge. But for hodgson theres no love from day one, you have to ask why?
But to these liverpool fans I have got to say onething to this so called bentiz cult. The guy has left the building and using his name now is only damaging the club. We need to look to the future. Plus Jamie we are all liverpool fans and I think you approach against this cult is all wrong the more noise you give them the more noise they will give you back. So both parties please drop the subject of benetiz because he is history.
p.s jamie I do not agree with your benetiz cult website you are just driving a wedge between fans and as liverpool fan that is not a good thing. You say the ultimate goal is the good of the club well what your doing is not good for the club either. I am not questioning your motives here I am questioning your methods.
Rafa Premiership results
ReplyDelete14.08<span> </span>Tottenham-Liverpool<span> </span>1-1 (1pt)
21.08<span> </span>Liverpool-Manchester City <span> </span>2-1 (3pt)
29.08<span> </span>Bolton-Liverpool <span> </span>1-0 (
11.09<span> </span>Liverpool-West Bromwich<span> </span>3-0
20.09<span> </span>Manchester U-Liverpool<span> </span>2-1
25.09<span> </span>Liverpool-Norwich<span> </span>3-0
03.10<span> </span>Chelsea-Liverpool<span> </span>1-0
16.10<span> </span>Fulham-Liverpool<span> </span>2-4
23.10<span> </span>Liverpool-Charlton<span> </span>2-0
30.10<span> </span>Blackburn-Liverpool<span> </span>2-2
Home - P-4 W-4 D-0 L-0
Away - P-6 W-1 D-2 L-3
TOTAL -P-10 W-5 D-2 L-3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgson Premiership results
15.08 <span> </span>Liverpool-Arsenal <span> </span>1-1
23.08<span> </span>Man City- Liverpool<span> </span>3-0
29.08<span> </span>Liverpool-Westbrom<span> </span>1-0
12.09<span> </span>Birmingham-Liverpool <span> </span>0-0
19.09<span> </span>Man Utd-Liverpool<span> </span>3-2
25.09<span> </span>Liverpool-Sunderland<span> </span>2-2
3.10<span> </span>Liverpool-Blackpool<span> </span>1-2
17.10<span> </span>Everton-Liverpool<span> </span>2-0
24.10<span> </span>Liverpool-Blackburn<span> </span>2-1
31.10<span> </span>Bolton-Liverpool<span> </span>0-1
Home- P-5 W-2 D-1 L-2
Away P-5 W-1 D-1 L-3
Total P-10 W-3 D-2 L-5
Yep, just like Mourinho, taking over Chelsea, a good team who finished second under Ranieri, and then spending milions to make them champions. And then taking over at Inter after Mancini had already won the league, spending millions and winning the CL. And now taking over at Real Madrid after Pellegrini did a good job last year. So Mourinho's success is down to Ranieri and Mancini. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.
ReplyDeleteWe can go one step further. Of the 15 players who made 15 or more appearances in Arsene Wenger's 97/98 PL winning team (thereby providing a significant contribution to winning the league), 10 of these players were in the team under Bruch Rioch. So surely Arsene won the league with Rioch's team using your logic!
I would agree on Christmas <span><span>Torres9</span><span> </span></span>because we would've given Roy a fair crack at a huge club after a disastrous start where even clubs with lowlier ambitions like West Ham were considering their managers' future whilst we made strange bedfellows.
ReplyDeleteInteresting note on the Director of Football too. Transfer targets will have already been lined up and the new manager can look at some them to see if they fit in with his philosophy. Now if Comolli is good at his job then at least a couple of quality players can be added with consent of the head coach (still has weird ring to it for Liverpool).
If Roy and Rafa buried the hatchet, why don't we? I'm with <span><span>Torres9</span></span> on this one. By the way, will Comolli give Roy a bit of advice on doing Rafa u-turns a la Keane on Poulsen and Konchesky? If not in Jan, they must be made one season wonders in the summer...
Gotta agree with you both lads. See the improvement versus Blackburn with a higher line and more aggressive pressing. I'm so glad that more real, respectable fans are upping the dignity in our conversations.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone doesn't think Roy is good enough then back it up and give him a chance. Insulting does not help. It's wrong. It's a game after all and if someone is doing his/her best, then one should never hurl abuse if they aren't good enough. We're supposed to be different class!
Funny how Rafa signed Aquilani at the wrong time and now Roy has sent Aquilani away at the wrong time.
Benitez inherited a team which qualified for the champions league, Hodgson inherited a team which only just managed to quality for the europa league, don't forget to take that into account. On those grounds the team rafa inherited would, logically, be expected to fare better.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that some people are arguing that the europe league is not as competitive as the champions league is silly, its very competitive, the teams in it all want to win, the difference is in the levels of quality at the teams and shows that, sadly, Liverpools quality took a nosedive last season.
"people like you..."
ReplyDeleteDo you know who I am?
I have posted once and you already know who I am? I have read many of your posts and I still don't know who you are? I do wonder if you've hit puberty yet, but I'd never be so brash as to assume I knew that fact from a few posts! So, have you hit puberty yet??
I would respond to the point regarding statistical analysis and the conclusions that can be drawn from different sets of data, but I feel it would be lost on you. If your dad is home, perhaps we can all have an adult conversation with him.
its illustrated that hodgson is not enaf in premiership
ReplyDelete1.we never lose in anfield in first 10 games....while hodgson lose two
2. Rafa entertain two top 4 four teams(m.u & chelsea) and two top 6 team (Spurs and City), while Hogson entertain two (top 4 team, mu & Arsenal) and one top 6 team (man city(depend on last results) plus one derby match
3. Rafa got 100% win in anfield while Hodgson win 40% of home match
4. Rafa got 16% (out of 6 matches) win while hogson 20% (out of 5 matches)
5. Rafa entertain 4 middle level team & 2 lower level (norwich & wbrom) while hogson entertain 5 middle level teams (incl everton) & 2 lower level (birmingham & blackburn - considering the recent table)
6. Rafa juz loses 3 (all in away) while hogson is 5 (3 away and 2 home)
7. Rafa loses margin goal is not more than 1 goal, while hogson is 3 goals margin
Is not about comparing rafa or hogson matter all about
THE MAIN THING IS , BY THE STATISTIC, ITS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT RAFA IS BETTER THAN HODGSON. RAFA HAD BEEN GIVEN 5 YEARS TO PRESENT PREMIERSHIP (MOST ADORABLE TITLE- COZ FAN CAN BE SATISFIED ENAF IF WE WIN PREMIERSHIP AND NEVER WIN ANY CUP THEN) TO THE FAN. BUT MOST PUNDIT SAID RAFA IS NOT ENAF TO GUIDE LIVERPOOL.
SINCE RAFA IS NOT GOOD ENAF AFTER 5 YEARS, R THE FAN HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER 5 YEARS AND CLAIM THAT HOGSON NOT ENAF. RAFA GOT SLIGHTLY GOOD REPUTATION AND RECORD NUMEROUS RECORD STATISTICALLY WHEN HE IN CHARGE LIVERPOOL.BY THEN SOME PEOPLE TELL HE IS NOT GOOD ENAF.
ARE HODGSON HINT ANYTHING THAT CLAIM HE IS BETTER THAN RAFA?
ENJOY FINDING
Seems like Rafa was slammed from pillar to post because of his so called failings in the prem, even though with 86 points had the biggest points total ever not to win it.No Torres last year,Gerrard always injured Masch head elsewhere,other teams like spurs and man city being given money hand over fist to close the gap while Benitez was being deprived,what exactly was so bad that we had to get rid of not only a great manager but a great man a humble man an LFC fan through and through whos heart and soul is in the club.RH sits on the bench for 90 minutes with a puzzled look chewing his fingers,Benitez was up and down giving instructions,the guy knew what he was doing.Dont compare RH to Rafa,there is no comparison.
ReplyDelete<span><span>CARLING CUP</span></span>
ReplyDelete<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>RAFA REGIME</span></span>
<span><span>RAFA REGIME</span></span>
<span><span>26.10<span> </span>Millwall-Liverpool (3. round)<span> </span>0-3 </span></span>
HODGSON REGIME
22.10<span> </span>LIVERPOOL- NORTHAMPTON <span> </span>2-2 (LOST BY PENALTY)
--------------
U HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WE REACH TO FINAL OF CARLING CUP . RAFA USED MOST OF THEIR YOUNGSTER TILL SEMIFINAL
IF YOU THINK RAFA IS NOT GOOD ENAF TO GUIDE LIVERPOOL THEN HAS BEEN SACKED BUT THEN HODGSON MOSTLY WORST CANDIDATE TO GUIDE US TOO. WHY WE NEED TO GIVEN HIM CHANCES BECAUSE...... STATISTICALLY HE LOST TO RAFA DAT BEEN SACKED.
This is the oddest most incorrect article I have ever read.
ReplyDeleteThe comparison you make is like comparing apples to pears. It is simply not possible to use this data for the basis of any comment. You are comparing GH's games which were most prem league (his first were really under joint manager) with RH's which were have been in qualifying rounds of Europe and friendlies and some prem league.
It's utter nonsense right the way through...
Your previous article also made a feeble attempt to bend spend figures. You cannot compare share of spending across a 20 year period without indexing it against market inflation. You haven't done this.
You also miss the fundamental point on Benitez's spending. No-one argues that Rafa spent a lot of money. The argument stems from where this money came from. If you look at the club's accounts (which I am sure you will have done as you seem to be trying to come across as a serious sports commentator) then you would be able to see the level of inward investment into the team. This is the fundamental point why H&G had to leave and if you cannot see this then you cannot be taken seriously by any LFC fans and you should give up now.
Most LFC fans would put up with some poor short term results whilst RH found his feet if a) the way the team was set up to play produced some energy and played to the strengths of the better players and b) if RH behaved and spoke in a manner befitting an LFC manager.
Whilst the past two weeks have been marginally better on these two points, RH was simply not delivering in either area prior to this. The team was set-up like one expecting to be under pressure and RH didn't seem to be able to come up with a plan until the second half and also his comments have been quite bizarre and bordering on the offensive to LFC supporters.
I agree that some may have gone too far with RH but that does not change the fact that he is the wrong man for this club - always was and always will be. Doesn't make him a bad coach, just the wrong coach.
Yes, it's wrong that we should want the manager removed. The whole situation the club has been in for the past 18 months is wrong. That's not Rafa's fault, it's not Roy's fault but for this club to move on as quickly as possible means that some decisions need taking quickly. The first one being a change in the manager, regardless of results.
I stumbled across this article and and intend to stumble off again and never come back. The whole thing feels like it's been written by a 12 year old....certainly the "rules" back up that impression on the writing
<span>
ReplyDelete<span><span>QUALIF UCL</span></span>
<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>10.08<span> </span>AK Graz-Liverpool (qualifier - 1.l.)<span> </span> 0-2<span> </span>Gerrard (23, 79)</span></span>
<span><span>24.08<span> </span>Liverpool-AK Graz (qualifier - 2.l.)<span> </span> 0-1<span> </span></span></span>
<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>GROUPING MATCH UCL</span></span>
<span><span>15.09<span> </span>Liverpool-Monaco<span> </span> 2-0<span> </span>Cisse (22), Baros (84)</span></span>
<span><span>28.09<span> </span>Olympiakos-Liverpool<span> </span> 1-0<span> </span></span></span>
<span><span>19.10<span> </span>Liverpool-Deportivo La Coruna<span> </span> 0-0<span> </span></span></span>
<span><span>03.11<span> </span>Deportivo La Coruna-Liverpool<span> </span> 0-1<span> </span>Andrade (15 og)</span></span>
<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>Qualifying UCL </span></span>
<span><span>Home<span> </span>P-1 W-0 D-0 L-1</span></span>
<span><span>Away <span> </span>P-1 W-1 D-O L-0</span></span>
<span><span>(Total P-2 W-1 D-0 L-1</span></span>
<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>Group Match</span></span>
<span><span>Home<span> </span>P-2 W-1 D-1 L-0</span></span>
<span><span>Away<span> </span>P-2 W-1 D-0 L-1</span></span>
<span><span>Total P-4 W-2 D-1 L-1 (7Pt)</span></span>
</span>
Who else was going to come in though? How could Liverpool expect to attract a top drawer manager when they had no champions league to look forward to, an uncertain ownership situation and a very difficult path to get back into the CL qualification spots?
ReplyDeleteAnd if Hodgson is sacked mid season, who can be brought in then? The new manager will be thrown in at the deep end and only have the January transfer period, where John Henry has already hinted there won't be much in the way of cash to splash, to make any changes.
I have looked at the teams played so far in their early first seasons by Benitez and Hodgson (in the league), the points tally up as 17 vs 12 but Rafa faced fewer of the top teams than Hodgson has (Man U and Arsenal vs Utd, Arsenal and City) so the difference is minor.
But, as I have said before, Rafa inherited a squad that was good enough to qualify for the champions league, Roy didn't and there's a reluctance amongst people to take that into account, you would expect Rafa to have a better start just on that alone.
Finally getting to my point here; Roy has not had the best start possible, no arguments there, but where a team is in the league in November is irrelevant, where they are in May is what matters, there's plenty of points to pick up yet and I'm still confident that Liverpool will qualify for european competition come the end of the season, preferably the champions league obviously but to look at giving the manager so little time is foolish. Look at the revolving door policy employed by the board at Newcastle for so long, look where it got them, inbetween Bobby Robson and Chris Hughton they switched rapidly and spiraled downwards, an extreme example I know, but let's not get in danger of following that please.
Well if we are going to start labelling groups because they have a difference of opinion surely you are the one who is causing division amongst the fans. As soon as someone creates a tag i.e 'Rafa cult', 'Fundementalsit', 'extremist' they are trying to whip up a 'them against us' scenario which doesn't help one little bit. It would be better if you appreciated that we are all fans and deserve more than to be placed into the pigeon hole of your choice.
ReplyDeleteRAFA IN EUROPE
ReplyDeleteQUALIF UCL
10.08<span> </span>AK Graz-Liverpool (qualifier - 1.l.)<span> </span> 0-2<span> </span>Gerrard (23, 79)
24.08<span> </span>Liverpool-AK Graz (qualifier - 2.l.)<span> </span> 0-1<span> </span>
GROUPING MATCH UCL
15.09<span> </span>Liverpool-Monaco<span> </span> 2-0<span> </span>Cisse (22), Baros (84)
28.09<span> </span>Olympiakos-Liverpool<span> </span> 1-0<span> </span>
19.10<span> </span>Liverpool-Deportivo La Coruna<span> </span> 0-0<span> </span>
03.11<span> </span>Deportivo La Coruna-Liverpool<span> </span> 0-1<span> </span>Andrade (15 og)
Qualifying UCL
Home<span> </span>P-1 W-0 D-0 L-1
Away <span> </span>P-1 W-1 D-O L-0
(Total P-2 W-1 D-0 L-1
Group Match
Home<span> </span>P-2 W-1 D-1 L-0
Away<span> </span>P-2 W-1 D-0 L-1
Total P-4 W-2 D-1 L-1 (7Pt)
-------------------------------------------------------
HODGSON IN EUROPE
QUALIFYING ROUND OF EUROPA (UEFA CUP)
29.07<span> </span> Rabotnicki-Liverpool (3. r-1.leg)<span> </span>0-2<span> </span>
05.08<span> </span> Liverpool-Rabotnicki (3. r-2. leg)<span> </span>2-0<span> </span>
19.08<span> </span> Liverpool-Trabzonspor<span> </span>1-0<span> </span>
26.08<span> </span> Trabzonspor-Liverpool<span> </span>1-2<span> </span>
Qualifying UCL
Home <span> </span>P-2 W-2 D-0 L-0
AWAY<span> </span>P-2 W-2 D-0 L-0
TOTAL <span> </span>P-4 W-4 D-0 L-0
GROUPING EUROPA
1609<span> </span> Liverpool-Steaua Bucuresti<span> </span>4-1<span> </span>
3009<span> </span> Utrecht-Liverpool<span> </span>0-0<span> </span>
hOME<span> </span>P-1 W-1 D-0 L-0
AWAY<span> </span>P-1 W-0 D-1 L-0
TOTAL<span> </span>P-2 W-1 D-1 L-1 (4PT)<span> </span>
<span>
</span>
I've never seen liverpool play as bad as they have in the games this season (With the exception of a couple)
ReplyDeleteI've got nothing against hodgeson I just don't believe he can manage a top class team.
Who are you to deduce the tone of my posts via text? How is it ridiculing the way he speaks? Does he or does he not speak like that? Under our previous manager, I'd often be watching the game yelling at the TV that he needs to "look into the possibilities of bringing a new quality option off the bench to control the game" because guess what, he spoke like that.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, what's to say I didn't just mistype it, R and W are close on the keyboard. I'm not going to lie and say that was the case but I'm sure I could've proved it with some statistics. At the end of the day, it made my points no less valid.
If Hodgson does indeed have a much better squad at his disposal since his arrival than either Houlier or Benitez did then pray tell, why did that squad only finish 7th in the league last season and miss out on Champions League football?
ReplyDeleteBenites inherited a squad which had just finished 4th and would, by and large, go on to win the champions league that season, Hodgson inherited one which crashed out of the champions league at the group stages and only just got into the europa league places.
To be fair, it's all relative. Hodgson has had success in Scandanavia, the fact that Scandanavian football isn't up there with, say, italian or German football has no relevance, it's still success.
ReplyDeleteI forgot we lost to Graz, what an absolute discrace that was (despite the fact we still qualified!) ;)
1. RAFA PLAY IN UCL (WHICH MORE PRESTIGE FIGHT BY THE TOP LEVEL CLUB) WITH LIMITED PLAYER INHERITED BY HOULIER WHILE HODGSON ON EUROPA LESS PRESTIGE
ReplyDelete2. RAFA GOT ONLY 50% OF QUALIFYING ROUND WIN WHILE HOGSON 100%. BUT ITS NEVER GONNA TAKE ACCOUNT SINCE ITS APPLY AGREGATE CONCEPT
3. RAFA ONLY GOT 2 MATCHES QUALIFY WHILE HODSON 4 MATCHES
4. ITS SHOW EVERYTHING....U CAN SEE THE OPPONENT THAT WE SELDOM HEARD BOUT THAT WHILE HOGSON IN CHARGE...U JUZ COUNTING DE NUMBER OF GAMES WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE OPPONENT ITSELF. IT THINK THE EVEN BLACKPOOL CAN BEAT THOSE 4 GAMES....ALSO IF U PUT ANOTHER 2 GROUP GAMES WHICH NAPOLI AND S.BUCHAREST IN COUNT, THEY BOTH OF TEAM IS MUCH2 LOSER THAN MONACO, DEPORTIVO LACORUNA AND OLYMPIAKOS...COULD U BELIEVE HODGSON ATLEAST MAKE AT PAR WHAT RAFA BEEN DELIVERED BEFORE IN EUROPE UCL....NOT EUROPA.
5. SOME UR STATISTIC IS PRECISE BUT NOT ACCURATE ENAF....ITS MEANS U R DIVIDE ALL OF THE READER TO ONE PART WHAT U R THINKNG. IF YOU REALLY HARDLY FAN, U WILL ANALYSE THESE STATISTIC BEFORE THAN ME....
6. IM ALSO THINKING THAT U R JUZ WANNA TO MAKE SOME CONFRONT TITLE AND DISCUSSION TO HAVE A LOT OF COMMENT WHICH MAY ATTRACT PEOPLES TO JOIN UR BLOG THEN....
THERE R ALOT TO SAY WITHIN THESE STATISTIC
BESIDE THAT U HAVE TO ANALYSE THE SQUAD TEAM INHERITED BY THE PREVIOUS MANAGER THEN...HOULLIER INHERITED BY EVANS, RAFA INHERITED BY HOULIER AND HODGSON BY RAFA. ITS RELATED TO THE TRANSFER ACTIVITIES BY THOSE MANAGER WHEN HE STILL IN CHARGE.
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IS....."WE NEVER GOT THE NIGHTMARE STARTS IN 50+ YEARS AND HODGSON HAD BEEN RECORD IN 2010..heheh....SO WHAT WE WAITING FOR..
RAFA IS MUCH2 BETTER IN HIS "18 GAMES" BEEN SACKED, SO WHY WE HAVE TO WAIT HODGSON SINCE THEN HE IS CLEARLY MUCH2 WORST THAN RAFA.WE HAVE TO TAKE A NEW ONE.
Drawing attention to the way someone speaks in order to belittle them is completely different from drawing attention to what someone says. Would you take the piss out of someone with a stutter or a lisp?
ReplyDeleteUsual get the hits headline!
ReplyDeleteLets have a first 10 league games comparison as that would be more worthwhile!
And lets not forget that a major Roy Pro was that he knew the league and would get an Immediate start rather than needing to settle in and get results/sign correct players.
As for your comments on:
<span>"Benitez signed Josemi and Nunez in his first months as manager, two players who are were clearly worse than Poulsen and Konchesky"</span>
I am not so sure, both were far cheaper (3m vrs 8.5m+), kept their value (sold 3m vrs prob 3m) and in the case of Josemi, he was better than Konchesky (so far) and at the moment Poulsen looks as useful as Nunez.
What you forget is Rafa signed Alonso and Garcia in those first few months as well and these are far greater players than those Roy signed and although in inflation adjusted terms were more expensive than Raul and Poulsen, in cash terms (as you said in prev article is all important) the difference is £0.5m. Okay Raul and Poulsen could prov better but I very much doubt it!
Ah, I somehow missed that this was about Mourinho, Wenger, Ranieri, Mancini, Pellegrini and Rioch. Or I failed to put my point forward in a way you could understand.
ReplyDeleteAh, I somehow missed that this was about Mourinho, Wenger, Ranieri, Mancini, Pellegrini and Rioch. Or I failed to put my point forward in a way you could understand.
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong. We've lost 4 games this season, one at home to Blackpool and three away to Everton, Man U and Man City. So that's point one done, plus we played Arsenal at home already. But when you say we never lose at Anfield in our first ten games, it depends on who you're playing, personnel you have available, circumstances surrounding the club.
ReplyDeleteDepends on who we play as well but results have been poor in tandem with no identifiable approach or development in our style of play. Nobody on this site has said we wanted to wait 5 years for Roy Hodgson. We all agree he is a transitional manager!
Sometimes, it is better to say nothing when you don't have anything positive to say so I'm going to stop here.
So let me get this right. Yesterday's article had 111 comments. You take one comment from one person and write an article about how you can prove the hypocrisy of fans. Its fine to use stats, but stats also tell me that six our of seven dwarves aren't happy.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of reasonable Liverpool fans are moaning about the way we are playing rather than the stats themselves. Its far to early in the season to make assumptions about where we are going to finish in the league. If Hodgson does well and gets us intop the top 6 then it brilliant for him and the fans will be happy. But what we have seen so far is not inspiring to be honest. Even you have to admit that. Despite all the off field matters, we can expect that a manager of 35 years experience has the tactical nous to beat Sunderland at home, especially when you go one nil up in th first 10 minutes. Newcastle just thrashed them 5-1 last week. That a manager of 35 years experience doesn't get beaten at HOME by Blackpool, where in the first half we were played off the park. That when we go to Man City and they have packed the midfield you don't play a 4-4-2 and lose the midfield battle. By all means start with it but when you see it not working you have to change it. The Blackburn game is the only game this season where we've seen the shackles of and we played well and then in the next game he reverted to type against Bolton and we just sneaked a win, which we didn't really deserve.
You need to re-look at your figures as you've added them incorrectly, Hodgsons record is: W3, D3, L4 (not W-3 D-2 L-5 as you have said).
ReplyDeleteYou can't call Man City of 2004/2005 a top six club - they finished 8th that season. However Bolton finished 6th that year, yet Benitez lost to them, what does that say?
All this goes to show that no matter what seasons, games, teams or managers you try and compare there will always be ways of 'bending' things towards your own argument.
It is too soon to discard a manager, I agree our performances have been worrying, though they've improved greatly over the last two games. We played poorly for a lot of last season, yet Benitez was given time, the same should be afforded of Hodgson.
Just because we failed last season, it's perfectly acceptable that we should continue to do so from now on?? If that's the case, what was even the point in changing the manager in the first place?? *DONT_KNOW*
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe you should have watched us play last season then.
ReplyDeleteOuch.
ReplyDeleteOr the hundredth time: it is not about moaning about Hodgson - criticise him till the cows come home! Sla his formations/tactics etc. I am referring to calling for him to be sacked after 18 games, and all the personal attacks and character assassination that goes with that, behaviour that is - IMO - disgraceful.
ReplyDeleteNo one disputes that Hodgson has made mistakes; he does not, however, deserve the vile vitriol vomited his way from so-called fans.
Jamie you are the worst form of journalist, simply using sensationalism for internet hits. Shame on you.
ReplyDelete