Another day, another spurious attempt by fans to blame Roy Hodgson for something whilst completely ignoring the reality and context of the situation. Apparently, Dani Pacheco is unhappy at Liverpool, and according to the rabid, unreasonable fans who've been calling for his head, Hodgson is to blame for this. It's time for another bandwagon!
The latest false argument being constructed against Hodgson goes something like this:
* Pacheco was signed from Barcelona so that automatically makes him an amazing talent!
* It's a disgrace that he has not been in the first team since September.
* Pacheco *should* be in the first team! He should be starting regularly!
* Pacheco is unhappy at Liverpool and that's all Roy Hodgson's fault.
* This is another example of why Hodgson is not the right man for Liverpool.
And blah blah blah.
In the words of Lord Grabiner, QC: This is a grotesque parody of the truth.
Why is Pacheco suddenly so important to Liverpool?
There seems to be this amazing demand for Pacheco to be in the team. That's fine, but why should Pacheco be playing more of a part in the first team squad? What has he done to deserve the promotion? Just because he signed from the Barcelona youth team doesn't mean he should walk into Liverpool's starting line-up.
Hodgson stated the following about Pacheco recently:
"He featured in that unfortunate Northampton game and it's a fact of life that it was a great opportunity for those outside the first 13 or 14 to really show me, 'You should be thinking of me'."
Are these comments not fair? Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it. Granted, it's just one game - and I do not think he should be cast aside just for that - but no one is saying he *has* been cast aside.
Except fans, that is.
Is it not conceivable that Hodgson and the coaching staff feel that after watching Pacheco play, they've decided that he might not be ready for the step-up yet? Is that not the kind of decision that most managers make about youth players?
Why should Hodgson be castigated for that? Oh, I forgot: Pacheco signed from Barcelona - that makes him an instant superstar. He doesn't need to prove himself; he should just be able to walk into the team. Pacheco may have performed well in last summer’s European under-19 championship, but that is totally different to performing well in English football.
Proof that Hodgson is doing a great job with youth
* Pacheco was signed in 2007. How many appearances did he make under Rafa Benitez from 2007-2010? 7 in 3 years, with none of them being starts. I don't recall Benitez being castigated for not giving Pacheco more opportunities.
* The season is only 3.5 months old but Pacheco has already made 5 appearances under Hodgson, with two of them being starts (In Europe against Rabotnicki; in the League Cup against Northampton).
* 5 appearances in 3.5 months vs. 7 appearances in 3 years (!). And it is Hodgson getting it in the neck? Utter hypocrisy.
* Combined, Dani Pacheco, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing and Martin Kelly managed only 17 appearances for the whole of last season.
* With only 3.5 months of this season gone, they already have a combined total of 27 appearances. This is irrefutable proof that Hodgson is giving Liverpool's young players many more chances.
* In Ngog's case, he managed 37 appearances for the whole of last season. With only 3.5 months of the season gone so far, he already has 19 appearances to his name.
* Overall, Hodgson has been fantastic for Liverpool's young players. Jonjo Shelvey, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing, Martin Kelly and David Ngog have all been given regular chances in the first team. Eccelston himself spoke in glowing terms about Hodgson's impact on young players at Liverpool:
I think out of all the teams that are in the Europa League, the gaffer has shown that he is most prepared to put younger players in whereas certain managers wouldn't have. We aIl think he's shown great confidence in us. Every time he's told us to go out there and to remember that we're Liverpool players. We might not be as big names as the other players in the team as of yet, but he has still shown us the same confidence and encouragement that he shows them, so that is great for us.
"I was speaking to Jonjo Shelvey before the game in Turkey [against Trabzonspor] and we were saying how good it was to be involved in nights like that. Jonjo then started against Napoli in front of 55,000 fans. The atmosphere was daunting. It's something that I had never come across before in my life and even though I didn't play, it was still good to sample."
The anti-Hodgson brigade will completely disregard all the positives I've outlined above though. The fact that the majority of *ready* young players are being given a chance doesn't matter; all that apparently matters is the *one* single young player is allegedly not being given a chance.
Is that not a disproportionate and unfair response?! It's like arguing that if a team goes on a run of 9 wins and 1 defeat that single defeat is more important than the 9 wins! In other words, it's ridiculous and unfair thinking.
Pacheco 'unhappy' at LFC? Where's the proof?
There is NO persuasive evidence that Dani Pacheco is unhappy at Liverpool. There are no direct quotes from the player himself and there is nothing to suggest that he is unhappy. if there IS such evidence, please post it in the comments below. As usual, the media has whipped up a storm of misinformation based on inference and conjecture.
Anti-Hodgson fans have jumped all over this as it gives them another weapon with which to attack the manager. All sense of fairness goes out the window in the fanatical zeal to continue the professional and personal denigration of the man.
It's completely out of order, and fans that engage in this type of deliberate and malicious twisting of the truth should be ashamed.
Counter-Productive coaching philosophy?
The more likely reason Pacheco is not pulling up trees at Anfield is (IMO) coaching. As I highlighted in my post about Suso yesterday, Liverpool's youth coach John McMahon has an outdated, draconian view of coaching young players, as illustrated by recent comments about Pacheco:
"The boss (Roy Hodgson) is keen on him. He sees Dani filling those wide roles, so when he plays for the reserves he occupies those positions and learns to adapt and play in them. It's good for his development to learn several roles and it will only benefit him, especially if he's required to do a job for the first-team."
First, Hodgson wants Pacheco to play out wide, i.e. attacking roles. That's great. However, McMahon has other ideas; he think Pacheco should learn to play 'several roles' as this will 'benefit him' when he's required to 'do a job for the team'.
Do a job for the team? In other words, fit in somewhere that's not his position just so he can do a job. Just like Carra does at right back, for example. McMahon also said this about Suso:
"He turned 17 on Friday and hopefully he has a bright future at the club. He'll only have that future if he keeps working hard and listens to what the coaching staff are saying to him. But he knows that and we hope he will start working twice as hard now.
"We are looking at developing the whole player here. He has good attributes going forward and in the wide areas but he still needs to learn the other side of the game. He needs to know about the discipline and work that's required in a team, like tracking back, tackling and staying with runners. By playing him in midfield, like we did with last year, it will hopefully add that other side to his game".
This negative philosophy is the problem, not Hodgson. It's the same old outdated English football thinking that has blighted the sport for decades: complete disregard for the creative aspects of a young player's game and the institution of a system of coaching that 'breeds out' creative instincts by placing the emphasis on tackling, tracking back and 'working hard'.
I would argue it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for Pacheco being disheartened (if he even is, which we don't know for a fact).
I have proved that young players are getting more of a chance under Hodgson this season than they did for the whole of last season. The Pacheco situation is made-up media nonsense perpetuated by fans with an agenda against the manager.
There is absolutely no fair reason to blame Hodgson for not playing Pacheco more because the player has done nothing at Liverpool that warrants him being played more. We do not know that he is unhappy, but if he IS (and this is completely hypothetical), and has asked for a move then let him leave. At 19 years of age, what right does Pacheco (or any young player) have to demand to play more, and then hold the club to ransom by threatening to leave because he's not played more?
Jaimie Kanwar
The latest false argument being constructed against Hodgson goes something like this:
* Pacheco was signed from Barcelona so that automatically makes him an amazing talent!
* It's a disgrace that he has not been in the first team since September.
* Pacheco *should* be in the first team! He should be starting regularly!
* Pacheco is unhappy at Liverpool and that's all Roy Hodgson's fault.
* This is another example of why Hodgson is not the right man for Liverpool.
And blah blah blah.
In the words of Lord Grabiner, QC: This is a grotesque parody of the truth.
Why is Pacheco suddenly so important to Liverpool?
There seems to be this amazing demand for Pacheco to be in the team. That's fine, but why should Pacheco be playing more of a part in the first team squad? What has he done to deserve the promotion? Just because he signed from the Barcelona youth team doesn't mean he should walk into Liverpool's starting line-up.
Hodgson stated the following about Pacheco recently:
"He featured in that unfortunate Northampton game and it's a fact of life that it was a great opportunity for those outside the first 13 or 14 to really show me, 'You should be thinking of me'."
Are these comments not fair? Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it. Granted, it's just one game - and I do not think he should be cast aside just for that - but no one is saying he *has* been cast aside.
Except fans, that is.
Is it not conceivable that Hodgson and the coaching staff feel that after watching Pacheco play, they've decided that he might not be ready for the step-up yet? Is that not the kind of decision that most managers make about youth players?
Why should Hodgson be castigated for that? Oh, I forgot: Pacheco signed from Barcelona - that makes him an instant superstar. He doesn't need to prove himself; he should just be able to walk into the team. Pacheco may have performed well in last summer’s European under-19 championship, but that is totally different to performing well in English football.
Proof that Hodgson is doing a great job with youth
* Pacheco was signed in 2007. How many appearances did he make under Rafa Benitez from 2007-2010? 7 in 3 years, with none of them being starts. I don't recall Benitez being castigated for not giving Pacheco more opportunities.
* The season is only 3.5 months old but Pacheco has already made 5 appearances under Hodgson, with two of them being starts (In Europe against Rabotnicki; in the League Cup against Northampton).
* 5 appearances in 3.5 months vs. 7 appearances in 3 years (!). And it is Hodgson getting it in the neck? Utter hypocrisy.
* Combined, Dani Pacheco, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing and Martin Kelly managed only 17 appearances for the whole of last season.
* With only 3.5 months of this season gone, they already have a combined total of 27 appearances. This is irrefutable proof that Hodgson is giving Liverpool's young players many more chances.
* In Ngog's case, he managed 37 appearances for the whole of last season. With only 3.5 months of the season gone so far, he already has 19 appearances to his name.
* Overall, Hodgson has been fantastic for Liverpool's young players. Jonjo Shelvey, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing, Martin Kelly and David Ngog have all been given regular chances in the first team. Eccelston himself spoke in glowing terms about Hodgson's impact on young players at Liverpool:
I think out of all the teams that are in the Europa League, the gaffer has shown that he is most prepared to put younger players in whereas certain managers wouldn't have. We aIl think he's shown great confidence in us. Every time he's told us to go out there and to remember that we're Liverpool players. We might not be as big names as the other players in the team as of yet, but he has still shown us the same confidence and encouragement that he shows them, so that is great for us.
"I was speaking to Jonjo Shelvey before the game in Turkey [against Trabzonspor] and we were saying how good it was to be involved in nights like that. Jonjo then started against Napoli in front of 55,000 fans. The atmosphere was daunting. It's something that I had never come across before in my life and even though I didn't play, it was still good to sample."
The anti-Hodgson brigade will completely disregard all the positives I've outlined above though. The fact that the majority of *ready* young players are being given a chance doesn't matter; all that apparently matters is the *one* single young player is allegedly not being given a chance.
Is that not a disproportionate and unfair response?! It's like arguing that if a team goes on a run of 9 wins and 1 defeat that single defeat is more important than the 9 wins! In other words, it's ridiculous and unfair thinking.
Pacheco 'unhappy' at LFC? Where's the proof?
There is NO persuasive evidence that Dani Pacheco is unhappy at Liverpool. There are no direct quotes from the player himself and there is nothing to suggest that he is unhappy. if there IS such evidence, please post it in the comments below. As usual, the media has whipped up a storm of misinformation based on inference and conjecture.
Anti-Hodgson fans have jumped all over this as it gives them another weapon with which to attack the manager. All sense of fairness goes out the window in the fanatical zeal to continue the professional and personal denigration of the man.
It's completely out of order, and fans that engage in this type of deliberate and malicious twisting of the truth should be ashamed.
Counter-Productive coaching philosophy?
The more likely reason Pacheco is not pulling up trees at Anfield is (IMO) coaching. As I highlighted in my post about Suso yesterday, Liverpool's youth coach John McMahon has an outdated, draconian view of coaching young players, as illustrated by recent comments about Pacheco:
"The boss (Roy Hodgson) is keen on him. He sees Dani filling those wide roles, so when he plays for the reserves he occupies those positions and learns to adapt and play in them. It's good for his development to learn several roles and it will only benefit him, especially if he's required to do a job for the first-team."
First, Hodgson wants Pacheco to play out wide, i.e. attacking roles. That's great. However, McMahon has other ideas; he think Pacheco should learn to play 'several roles' as this will 'benefit him' when he's required to 'do a job for the team'.
Do a job for the team? In other words, fit in somewhere that's not his position just so he can do a job. Just like Carra does at right back, for example. McMahon also said this about Suso:
"He turned 17 on Friday and hopefully he has a bright future at the club. He'll only have that future if he keeps working hard and listens to what the coaching staff are saying to him. But he knows that and we hope he will start working twice as hard now.
"We are looking at developing the whole player here. He has good attributes going forward and in the wide areas but he still needs to learn the other side of the game. He needs to know about the discipline and work that's required in a team, like tracking back, tackling and staying with runners. By playing him in midfield, like we did with last year, it will hopefully add that other side to his game".
This negative philosophy is the problem, not Hodgson. It's the same old outdated English football thinking that has blighted the sport for decades: complete disregard for the creative aspects of a young player's game and the institution of a system of coaching that 'breeds out' creative instincts by placing the emphasis on tackling, tracking back and 'working hard'.
I would argue it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for Pacheco being disheartened (if he even is, which we don't know for a fact).
I have proved that young players are getting more of a chance under Hodgson this season than they did for the whole of last season. The Pacheco situation is made-up media nonsense perpetuated by fans with an agenda against the manager.
There is absolutely no fair reason to blame Hodgson for not playing Pacheco more because the player has done nothing at Liverpool that warrants him being played more. We do not know that he is unhappy, but if he IS (and this is completely hypothetical), and has asked for a move then let him leave. At 19 years of age, what right does Pacheco (or any young player) have to demand to play more, and then hold the club to ransom by threatening to leave because he's not played more?
Jaimie Kanwar
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ReplyDeleteI absolutely love how you can take directly opposing views on consecutive days according to your agenda. But I love even more that you do it whilst flailing accusations around wildly at other fans. What has Ryan Babel done to deserve a place at Liverpool? But then that was Benitez' fault for ruining a talented young player. Pacheco played badly in one game so write him off? He hasn't been near the first team since Northampton. This is another example of poor management by Hodgson, another player's form questioned in the media. But no, you would rather write articles about what a squad player feels about the Inter manager than address what is going on under your eyes. Hodgson effect pure and simple.
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The views are not opposing at all; they completely different issues. Just because you try and twist it into something else doesn't make it so.
ReplyDeleteBenitez had Babel for 3 years; Hodgson has had Pacheco for 3.5 months. If you cannot see the difference then you are just embarrasing yourself.
And who says Pacheco has been written off? You are assuming that based on a comment taken out of context. Hodgson is not suggesting that pacheco's days are numbered; that is the interpretation *you* bring because that is what you want to see.
All this 'Pacheco is unhappy and wants to leave' crap is totally manufactured by the press and perpetuated by fans who want Hodgson out. Like you, they don't care about the facts or the fairness of the situation; they'll just twist anything to make Hodgson appear bad.
I kind of see your point. BUT... the fact that such a <span>prodigious </span>talent (as irrevocably highlighted by the aforementioned U19s championship) cannot succeed at Liverpool is rather worrying. It may well be that the coaching isn't up to scratch, but surely the manager should have a handle on that. Sadly, though, this is a regular occurrence at Liverpool. I seem to remember a similar youth tournament some years ago where recently signed LFC player Le Tallec won the gold or silver ball (can't remember which). Look what happened to him. Meanwhile, a certain C. Ronaldo was at that tournament and failed to rip up any trees, but look at how Man U managed to get the best out of him. Jamie, I think you need to ease up on the Benitez versus Hodgson campaign here and follow your line of thinking from the other day with regard to Suso. I think you're on to something there. And while I agree with you that Roy needs more time, I don't think you should be so vociferously fighting his corner - let his results do that for him.
ReplyDeleteHi billy - I agree with you: it is sad that a great young talent can't succeed at LFC. However, how can we make that judgment about Pacheco 'succeeding' after only 3.5 months of the season? He's only 19. is it not possible that he will get more chances over the next 6 months? Is it not a little premature to argue that he hasn't succeeded after only a few months, especially in light of how Hodgson has exponentially INCREASED youth involvement in the first team after only 3.5 months in the job?
ReplyDeleteThis is the point here: All the evidence proves that Hodgson is a manager who will give youth a chance. Just because Pacheco has not featured that much in the first third of the season shouldn't overshadow that positive achievement.
As I said, it's like saying 1 defeat after a run of 9 wins is more important than the 9 wins themselves.
There is no answer to sarcasm.
ReplyDelete* Pacheco was signed in 2007. How many appearances did he make under Rafa Benitez from 2007-2010? <span>7 in 3 years</span>, with none of them being starts. I don't recall Benitez being castigated for not giving Pacheco more opportunities.<span></span>
ReplyDeleteBlah, blah, Thing is that he is coming into the right age to get some appearances now, he wasn't until last year under Benitez. I agree that there hasn't been to many games we've been dominating to try out youths this season. Mainly because we never chase a big the few times we've been dominating under Roy. West Ham at home was a good chance to give some youngsters 25-30min of game time tho, but Roy thought it was a better idea to play it safe, with a 3-0 lead against a W-ham that created nothing.
Anyhow, I'm not that into the whole youth thing at the moment (aslong as they don't leave under Roys caretaker season). We've got bigger problems to worry about at the moment, like Roys negative away 9-0-1 tactics. And I'm not even one of those who are screaming myself horse over having to get rid of him instantly. I think we might aswell give him the rest of the season while looking for a long term option. Our home record under Roy is quite fine to be honest, however his away tactics are just plain shit.
Pacheco was only 16 and 17 in his first 2 years with Benitez, he was hardly going to be drafted into the first team at that age. Granted he should,ve got more chances last year but now he,s at an age now where he should be getting some games and deserves his chance.
ReplyDelete<span>
ReplyDeleteThat is just the unintelligent view of it Jaimie. Part of the 'Benitez effect' you tried to drive down everyone's throat yesterday was backed up by an article you wrote last year about Aquilani (no more than 4 months into his Anfield career) so why it is ok with Hodgson? It simply isn't, he is culpable of the same accusations you levelled at the last man yet you refuse, stubbornly, to recognise this? Like you are in some sort of cult... And to lambast fans for having an agenda at Hodgson? Coming from the person who ran (and is still obsessively running) an agenda on the last manager. But then we are 'traitorous' and you are backed by facts. And to think you are worried about me embarassing myself. To be fair, that ship has sailed with you.
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Interesting read Jaimie. It seems to me you are always playing Devil's advocate to the opinion of most fans. I will play fan's advocate now. It is right Pacheco did not get many chances under Rafa, but he was unlikely to given the age at which he came. Surely this is the season where he should be getting his chance. I think what most fans are annoyed about is the fact that Pacheco has not been given a real chance since Northampton where as many players who it could be argued have less natural talent (ie Spearing) have.
ReplyDeletePersonally i think Pacheco should have been brought on in some of the EPL games where we have struggled for creativity. From watching him in the reserves it is clear he has talent- he has movement, incisive passing, great in tight spaces and great awareness. These are all areas where our team has looked flat for most of this season. It makes complete sense, stick the lad on to play in the hole, playing to his strengths and adding to the team what we have been missing. Most fans see this and so become exasperated when players like Shelvey who clearly needs to go out on loan somewhere are chosen ahead of him.
Yes, I agree. However, for the millionth time it is only 3.5 months into the season! Pacheco already has 5 appearances (2 starts) to his name in that time (vs. 7 appearances for the WHOLE of last season).
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so quick to argue that he's not being given a chance so early in the campaign?!
Is it not possible that he will get more chances as the season progresses?
Of course it is, and Hodgson's record with other youth players proves this.
Pacheco, Eccleston, Kelly + Spearing = 17 appearances for the WHOLE of last season.
They already have 27 appearances after 3.5 months of this season. That surely shows that Hodgson is keen on youth, and gives credence to the suggestion that Pacheco is likely to get more chances as the season progresses.
Jamie. Fisrtly your use of stats is a joke. 5 year olds could display a better understanding of stats than you. Pachecos 7 appearances in 3 years under Benitez cannot be compared to those under Hodgson. Pacheco jioned as a 16 year old. So its no surprise that he didnt make hte team in his first 2 year. Those 7 appearances that he made were in RBs LAST year in charge at a time when he was beginningto mature as a player. RB even brought hin on as a sub in teh PL towards the end of last season. But it shows that he was on teh verge of breaking into the squad. Granted the Euro u19 event is not exactly the EPL but he did get voted BEST player in that tournament, scoring four goals. He has stepped time and again in teh reserves, dictating play for midfield, setting up goals and chipping in with a few himself. He has defintely deserved a place ahead of Shelvey, Spearing or Ecclestone. Go watch the goal he scored against Everton and tell me that the English kids in our reeerves are capable of that kind of skill. RH is a clueless old fool who was brought in because of his docile nature. Hes not likely to challenge the board and will do as hes told by the owners.Contrary to what you have mentioned in previous posts he is not going to steady teh ship but instead will drag us down into mediocrity.We need to get into teh CL next season & I am sure that he will not succeed.& shoudl that happen, the top talents (even the younger ones) will be lured by clubs who ARE in the CL. I dont call that steadying the ship - more like sinking it.
ReplyDeleteJamie. Fisrtly your use of stats is a joke. 5 year olds could display a better understanding of stats than you. Pachecos 7 appearances in 3 years under Benitez cannot be compared to those under Hodgson. Pacheco jioned as a 16 year old. So its no surprise that he didnt make hte team in his first 2 year. Those 7 appearances that he made were in RBs LAST year in charge at a time when he was beginningto mature as a player. RB even brought hin on as a sub in teh PL towards the end of last season. But it shows that he was on teh verge of breaking into the squad. Granted the Euro u19 event is not exactly the EPL but he did get voted BEST player in that tournament, scoring four goals. He has stepped time and again in teh reserves, dictating play for midfield, setting up goals and chipping in with a few himself. He has defintely deserved a place ahead of Shelvey, Spearing or Ecclestone. Go watch the goal he scored against Everton and tell me that the English kids in our reeerves are capable of that kind of skill. RH is a clueless old fool who was brought in because of his docile nature. Hes not likely to challenge the board and will do as hes told by the owners.Contrary to what you have mentioned in previous posts he is not going to steady teh ship but instead will drag us down into mediocrity.We need to get into teh CL next season & I am sure that he will not succeed.& shoudl that happen, the top talents (even the younger ones) will be lured by clubs who ARE in the CL. I dont call that steadying the ship - more like sinking it.
ReplyDeleteJamie. Fisrtly your use of stats is a joke. 5 year olds could display a better understanding of stats than you. Pachecos 7 appearances in 3 years under Benitez cannot be compared to those under Hodgson. Pacheco jioned as a 16 year old. So its no surprise that he didnt make hte team in his first 2 year. Those 7 appearances that he made were in RBs LAST year in charge at a time when he was beginningto mature as a player. RB even brought hin on as a sub in teh PL towards the end of last season. But it shows that he was on teh verge of breaking into the squad. Granted the Euro u19 event is not exactly the EPL but he did get voted BEST player in that tournament, scoring four goals. He has stepped time and again in teh reserves, dictating play for midfield, setting up goals and chipping in with a few himself. He has defintely deserved a place ahead of Shelvey, Spearing or Ecclestone. Go watch the goal he scored against Everton and tell me that the English kids in our reeerves are capable of that kind of skill. RH is a clueless old fool who was brought in because of his docile nature. Hes not likely to challenge the board and will do as hes told by the owners.Contrary to what you have mentioned in previous posts he is not going to steady teh ship but instead will drag us down into mediocrity.We need to get into teh CL next season & I am sure that he will not succeed.& shoudl that happen, the top talents (even the younger ones) will be lured by clubs who ARE in the CL. I dont call that steadying the ship - more like sinking it.
ReplyDeleteJaimie, go on mate, say something positive about the club , our fans or anything remotely related to our great club. It s hard to remember that this is a Liverpool Website (or is it)? Why so much negativity from you as you lambast others for their negativity? Why cant you see that what your saying about the anti-Hodgson brigade is somewhat similiar to what most koppites were saying about the anti-Rafa brigade last season?
ReplyDeleteIts been pleasing to see shelvey, eccleston, kelly and Ngog been giving chances. Obviously Pacheco wants to play more..he is an ambitous young footballer after all. Of course he will be feeling frustrated at not getting more first team games too. That hunger is important. However his quality performance on Tuesday seems to be sending out the message that he is going to fight for his opportunitities by demonstrating his ability on the pitch. Which is the best way. I have a feeling he will start to feature in some upcoming EL games.
ReplyDeleteI think if Pacheco continued playing well at reserve level, and hadn't got any type chance by May he would feel aggrieved and would need reassurances. But at not even 20, i don't think he wants to jump ship just yet. Hes just very hungry and theres nothing wrong with that.
mark - If you can't be bothered to be fair about this site and acknowledge that I have posted LOTS of positive stuff this season (supporting the manager etc), then I can't be bothered to reply to your comments.
ReplyDeleteThis IS a positive post about LFC. It is defending the club against spurious lies spread by the media.
In fact, I can't be bothered to justify myself to these kind of ridiculous posts. If you or anyone posts inaccurate stuff like that again I'm just going to delete the post.
And by inaccurate, I mean suggesting that i don't post positive stuff, which I do. Just because people are Liverpool fans doesn't mean they are above criticism for unfairly denigrating the manager.
ReplyDeleteThe answer is simple and not something that can be quantified with statistics. What have you made of Pacheco's recent performances in the reserves, Jaimie?
ReplyDelete<span>Pacheco was the star of the u19 euro's...he has been scoring regularly in reserves, i don’t see any of our 1st attacking players having an outstanding season and none that warrant automatic choice (torres apart) any player in the world cant display all his talents in just 1 or 2 games, this is the ideal time, especially in the west ham to bring him on when we are in no danger of losing to se what he can offer. Rafa actually did that with Pacheco, i was at the wolves game last season (he only got 10 mins though) </span>
ReplyDelete<span>As far as kids go and blooding them in games, more often than not they are raw talent which thrust upon a chance over a few games they make a name for themselves (macheda scored when coming on as sub each time man u are chasing and are all out attack, he didn’t perform well when he started, yet opinion on him is that he is a wondrous talent) When the likes of Robie Fowler, McManaman, Redkanpp and Rob Jones came through it was in a similar situation as now, 1st teamers not good enough and not hungry enough and look how all of tem turned out. This is an ideal time to play Pacheco, Shelvey, Spearing, yet Roy isn't taking that chance. Pacheco will probably leave and go on to be a huge talent but it might be at our expense which isnt good enough. Roy doesn’t know what he is doing with the youngsters as that team against Northampton had no collective experience. The kids didn’t stand a chance as a team like northampton was never going to be easy on them or give them time on the ball or anything. I admire your stance on Roy but this is the first time since Houllier that i am not confident of our ability to stay solid and defend. Our ability to chase a result or fight back, under Rafa and we always showed fight, i don’t see that under Roy and our back 5 look over exposed as there is no Mascherano like player helping them out. Roy probably wont take our club forward simply because tactically he isn’t the genius Rafa was. Rafa's only fault was tat he was stubborn in his ways and refused to adapt but tactically he outwitted most teams, unfortunately for him, when he got it wrong (season we finished 2nd, that Boro game) he gets it majorly wrong.</span>
The answer is simple and not something that can be quantified with statistics. What have you made of Pacheco's recent performances in the reserves, Jaimie?
ReplyDeleteWhile I understand you are a Hodgson apologist, and though I don't agree with your constant defence of our manager, I can accept it to a certain extent.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to Pacheco, I don't know how true it is that he wants to leave due to the manager? Bringing the fact that Benitez only gave Pacheco seven appearances over the previous three years into your argument is futile. It stands to reason that he should be receiving more appearances now, compared to during Benitez's reign, as he is 19 years old now.
While Pacheco undoubtably failed to perform against Northampton, so did the rest of the team that night. The fact is that Pacheco should be on the bench for home games against teams like West Ham in the Premier League, with a view to bringing him on when the game is under control. If Hodgson doesn't give him regular opportunities, now that he's 19 he is likely to be looking to move on. While he's not ready to start on a regular basis, he needs to be gradually introduced to the first team.
Signing from Barcelona doesn't make you certain to be a star of the future, if you listen to any of the coaches he's had at youth team and reserve levels, they all suggest he is likely to develop into a top player.
How long ago was his last appearance? 22nd of sept over 2 months ago.
ReplyDeleteAgainst Northampton Pacheco was played out of position and in a totally inept team performance failed to shine, yet others such as Shelvey and Eccleston were also poor yet have had other chances. Why? As a regular watcher of the reserves Pacheco stands out above these two prospects but they are not asked to learn a new position and they feature from the bench. Pacheco was missing for a couple of weeks, rumour was due to turning up late for training, so has RH a problem with his attitude or his talent? I thought it a mistake by RB to allow Adam Hammil to go without at least giving him a chance in a couple of first team games instead El Zhar was preferred, and with his current form that could of been the wrong call. If the current talk of Pacheco going is true then I hope we don't repeat this mistake and at least give him some first team time before making a decision.
ReplyDeleteI really would like to see some balance in your Rafa diatribes, eg Suso who you acknowledge as a talent "I was going to sign for Real Madrid until Rafa Benitez phoned me" imagine his response if Roy had phoned. Also if Roy is such an exponent of young talent why did he let 2 of our prospects go to Fulham of whom he admitted Fulham had tracked for some time, a young full back go out on loan just to get at best a journeyman 30+ average left back for an over inflated price. Before, as RH did, glorifying his cross for Maxi highlight the stats on how many time he has failed to get past the first man or has just passed backwards.
Jaimie
ReplyDeleteAt the start of your article you said "Are these comments not fair? Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it". Since that game he has been left out in the wilderness. Surely he deserves a place on the bench. How we have cried out for his creativity. On the other hand we have Jonjo. Now I am not arguing that he is an undoubted talent, but his performance against Wigan, which I thought was one of the worst individual performances I have ever seen from a Liverpool player, have not stopped his continued involvement.
What is driving you to constantly back Roy Hodgson. I thought that once we had lost Benitez that the days of mind-numbingly football were over. How wrong I was. I am getting more and more depressed every time I watch my beloved team, as I watch them struggle to cope with teams like Stoke and Wigan.
I am afraid that Roy Hodgson is not the manager to take our club forward and the sooner people like yourself wake up and smell the roses the better.
For once, I agree with you - on this topic at least. But I wish you would leave the Benitez thing alone; he's gone and we should be balanced and objective about Rafa's contributions, some exceptional, some terrible - hey, that's the life of most managers (even Arsenal fans are starting to call for Wenger's head now). As for Hodgson: I was an out-and-out critic and din't want him from the get-go but if Torres, Carra, Stevie G, and the youth players etc., say he has their support, then I will suspend my doubt because they know more than me, of course. My residual concern with you Jamie is that you are cutting Hodgson a lot more slack whilst seeming obsessed with proving yourself right. That means that you are already biased in appraising Hodgson's decisions and performance as manager (because you always seem to want to publish a "told you so" piece on your site). That compromises your journalistic integrity and credibility in the eyes of many fans.
ReplyDeleteWhen will people understand that Jaimie Kanwar is NOT a Liverpool fan. he is either a manc or a blue and is getting hits on his website by posting article clearly designed to wind everyone up. I cant beleive so many people fool for this. He is laughing at you all. I realise that you will probably not post this Jaimie but some of us know what you are up to.
ReplyDeletewhat a load of rubbish, all your points are inaccurate
ReplyDeleteyou say that 19 years old is to young? so why hodgson gives a chance to Shelvey who is just 18? i remember you that Pacheco is nearly 20(beginning of january)! Pacheco proved that he is a top player like Suso! Gareth Bale started at 19! LOOK at arsenal!!!!
ReplyDeletelook at Wilshere!!!!! he is 18 and starts every game!!!!!!
so what do you have to say?
Hodgson just doesn'tlike the spanish!(i'm nat spanish i'm french)
Yes, Pacheco has played fairly well for the reserves, and played pretty well v everton the other night (I watch as many reserve team games as I can). However, what difference does that make? Pacheco will get his chance again.
ReplyDeleteAs I illustrated above, Liverpool's young players have already made more appearances in the first 3.5 months of this season than they did for the whole of last season. Why do you ignore that point? That is strong evidence to suggest that Pacheco will get his chances. He'a already made 5 appearances this season; he only managed 7 for the whole of last season.
<p><span>The Northampton game featured Jones, Kyrgiakos, Wilson, Agger, Kelly, Lucas,Spearing, Pacheco, Jovanovic Ngog and Babel as the starting team and the fact Hodgson chooses to pinpoint it as one of the games Pacheco failed to impress says more about Roy than Pacheco.</span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span>The rest of that team with the exception of Wilson, Jones and Babel have featured much more when fit and none of them have been hampered by that match as Pacheco seems to have been.</span>
</p><p><span>The comparison with previous years when he was younger than the 19 he is now is a pushing the defence of flawed man management a bit. As an individual who only yesterday was defending another youngster, would you not find it troubling that Sammy Lee and Roy Hodgson have publicly chosen to talk Pacheco down rather than build him.</span>
</p><p><span>Being scouted from Barcelona does not make him brilliant but his performances for the reserves have been good, often the talking point of these matches and He has gone on to give outstanding performances when being the Golden boot winner of the Under 19 Youth Tournament, a feat none of our other youngster were able to be picked up for or featured in. </span>
</p><p><span>David Ngog is only continuing a trend from last season where he feature quite a lot except this time when He was in a good scoring form he fell away from the starting team a bit..</span>
</p><p><span>My own personal opinion is that when a manager feels he needs to address a manager and comes out with statetements as done now but still does not do the same to senior players like Joe Cole who is massively under-perfoming for the remuneration he receives is a bit wrong</span>
</p><p><span>Youngsters are supposed to be shown confidence in rather than announcing to the world press that a painful part of Liverpool history when losing to Northampton is one of the reasons that blighted a young player who did not grab his chance while in the month gone by the same manager asked to be judged on up to 55 matches.</span>
</p><p><span>If reserve matches are dismissed as a chance to properly asses a player how then can<span> </span>Pecheco be judged on one start in the Carling Cup and 2 sub appearances in the premier league and Europa for a total of 3 games in the season to date.</span>
</p><p><span>Martin Kelly started one Champions league game last season and got injured having played 2 other matches. Nathan Ecclestone and Jay Spearing were out on loan last season to gain experience but <span> </span>Ecclestone 2 matches before moving to Huddersfield after signing a contract extension and Spearing played 5 matches before leaving for a Leicester loan spell. Dani Pacheco feature in 6 matches last season while still an 18 year old a stat that merits a bit of faith in the youngster.</span>
</p><p><span>This therefore means Pacheco Ecclestone, Spearing and Kelly featured in a total of 16 matches last season despite Kelly suffering a serious injury while Spearing and Ecclestone later went out loan to further their first team experience something that surely impacted on any further appearances for Liverpool.</span>
</p>
Okay, let's forget 2007-2009: that doesn't change the fact that last season, Pacheco only got 7 appearances. He has 5 already this season (after 3.5 months), which is high rate of appearances than last season. Does that not suggest that he IS being given more chances? Of course it does.
ReplyDeleteIf you want balance, go to the BBC website. I state my opinions, and that is entirely clear. I'm under no obligation to be balanced, and if people don't like that they don't have to visit this site.
ReplyDeleteAre you balance? Are Hodgson's detractors balance? Don't make me laugh. It's okay for them to be biased but not for me?!
Every footb all fan is biased. There is no such thing as a balanced, objective fan.
Stop making stuff up please. Where did I say that 19 is too young?! That's right, I didn't. nor did I hint or suggest that. What I DID say was that 19 year old players shoulod not be holding the club to ransom and demanding to leave if they don't get games (re Pacheco, it was a hypothetical).
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to paraphrase, me accurate please.
I'd started to refute the points and ask Jaimie what he's made of Pacheco's recent appearances in the reserve matches but then I just thought, screw it. You can bet your bottom dollar he doesn't watch them but will come up with some "statistics" prove he does. Here's the real reason Dani Pacheco isn't being featured more often. He's seen as a relic of 'the old Liverpool' under that horrible Spanish dictator, he's got flair and most importantly he lacks an English passport.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you ... It is certainly only 3.5 months into the season and he has had 5 appearances ... nd Hodgson playin Kelly , Eccleston , Shelvey ( Gr8 talent ) is a gr8 thing ... Good points made ... But N'gog is a totally different issue that you should not have included ... LFC has lack of strikers - We never bought a striker - and N'Gog had to be played ...
ReplyDeleteHowever Pacheco should be tried out in one of the more important matches Like Napoli or West Ham in the second half ... Also the point that Dani from Barca is not the issue ... Jonjo is from Charlton and we like him !! Us fans voice our opinion over talented players and not players like Plessis ...
I can see your points, Billium. I'm not really interested how I'm perceived 'in the eyes of many fans'. Let them think what I like. And I never have an opinion just so I can later post something saying 'I told you so' (That doesn't even make sense in my case). I say things because I passionately believe them, and it just so happens that my views conflict with many other people.
ReplyDeleteI'm constantly being told I'm wrong/clueless/don't know what I'm talking about, but the proven fact is though that I do get a lot of things right; and given the abuse I receive at the time for daring to hold a different view, I am perfectly entitled to highlight this.
Similarly, when I'm wrong, people are falling over themselves to highlight this, either here or on other websites. That's their right, but it's also my right to show that I get things right.
Thanks for your comments, Billium. I see your points, but I'm not really interested in how I'm perceived 'in the eyes of many fans'. Let them think what I like. My work speaks for itself.
ReplyDeleteAnd I never have an opinion just so I can later post something saying 'I told you so' (That doesn't even make sense in my case). I say things because I passionately believe them, and it just so happens that my views conflict with many other people.
I'm constantly being told I'm wrong/clueless/don't know what I'm talking about, but the proven fact is though that I do get a lot of things right; and given the abuse I receive at the time for daring to hold a different view, I am perfectly entitled to highlight this.
Similarly, when I'm wrong, people are falling over themselves to highlight this, either here or on other websites. That's their right, but it's also my right to show that I get things right.
Almost forgot how much RH loves a scapegoat. It's never him that's not good enough, it's never him that could take some blame. Nope, it's the players/protests/being overstaffed/being understaffed.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments, Billium. I see your points, but I'm not really interested in how I'm perceived 'in the eyes of many fans'. Let them think what they like. if everyone hates me, good luck to them! Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me. My work speaks for itself.
ReplyDeleteAnd I never have an opinion just so I can later post something saying 'I told you so' (That doesn't even make sense in my case). I say things because I passionately believe them, and it just so happens that my views conflict with many other people.
I'm constantly being told I'm wrong/clueless/don't know what I'm talking about, but the proven fact is though that I do get a lot of things right; and given the abuse I receive at the time for daring to hold a different view, I am perfectly entitled to highlight this.
Similarly, when I'm wrong, people are falling over themselves to highlight this, either here or on other websites. That's their right, but it's also my right to show that I get things right.
Actually, I do watch reserve games. I'm a subscriber to LFC.tv (and many other prem-clubs that show resrve games), so I watch them all.
ReplyDeleteGosh, what a superb and detailed counter-argument :-D
ReplyDeletei would ask you to elaborate but clearly, your attention span is only long enough for you to post pointless one line comments.
Jaimie im not ignoring that point, yes he has made more starts but in a time when we had kuyt injured, rodriguez off form, jovanovic and babel out of favour i feel he could have been given a run in the team. Each time i have seen him play he brings a dynamic edge to the team. We have needed this. I fear the Roy is too focused on protecting a lead or containing the opposition to focus on attacking them and that is why pacheco is losing losing out. I know he is only 19 but if in the reserves you make your name then a call up and a run in the first team is the next step, that used to be how things were done right? I just feel he deserves a chance, but because he isnt a grafter he is considered a luxury player
ReplyDeleteOk but the title of your article states that it is fans who are spreading the lies so which is it... if it is the media then perhaps you need to make this clearer in your article.
ReplyDeleteGet a life loser
ReplyDelete"Just because he signed from the Barcelona youth team doesn't mean he should walk into Liverpool's starting line-up."
ReplyDeleteA complete misrepresentation of the truth from you JK. Fans are not calling for Pacheco just because he came from Barcelona. Nobody is saying that he should just walk into the team, all they have said is that he should get a chance. The reason why is because he was played very well and got the Golden Boot at the U19 Euros, and if you watch reserves games you will know that he has also played very well in the last year or so. You just need to see the goal against Everton reserves a few days ago to see the talent he has.
No-one is saying that he should start for Liverpool every game but at the age of 19 he could be given a chance, in the Europa League for example where Roy has given opportunities to Spearing, Shelvey, Eccleston and Kelly.
"Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it" The same could be said of Babel, but according to you when Babel is dropped after a game it is mismanagement and demotivation and the "Benitez Effect". The hyprocrisy is astounding. "Is it not conceivable that Hodgson and the coaching staff feel that after watching Pacheco play, they've decided that he might not be ready for the step-up yet?"What do you mean by ready? No strong enough, not tactically aware? This may be true but only two days ago you said this"It's time to start allowing creative youth players thrive. It's time to start developing, encouraging and PRIORITISING the attacking talent and technique of young players." It is abundantly clear that Pacheco has raw talent, technique and creativity. So why not let it thrive? Why not give him a chance in the first team? 3-0 up against West ham would have been the perfect opportunity to let him have a run out for 25/30 minutes. You're argument is completely confused. On the one hand you want these naturally creative players to thrive, but now you are arguing against it by saying that the coaches might not believe he is ready to take the step up. Not ready in what way? The raw talent is there. Do you want the creative youth to get a chance or just sit in the reserves and not be tested?
Jaimie are you actually Roy Hodgson???? Pacheco is classed as homegrown talent so I think it's ridicolous that he is nowhere near the first team squad! He may not be proven as yet, but young players need to be brought into the team gradually, not brought in for 4 games then dropped altogether. My thoughts are that if we do let him go, he will end up playing for a mid-table Spanish team and be a sensation in La Liga. That is the only way we will have an answer to this argument unfortunately..... I will then say...... I TOLD YOU SO! >:o I thank you.
ReplyDeleteSpot on KB. Yesterday he updated the sit warning people they will be banned if they denigrate any Liverpool manager. Why has he therefore not banned himself if that is his sole reason for existing. I knew Rafa was good in between the lines, but maybe somebody close to Jaimie could tell us how good he is between the sheets? Its the only logical explanation for this litany of poorly attempted revenge.
ReplyDeleteI got as far as the 2nd part where he states that Hodgson has provided a higher rate of appearances. Not only is this untrue, it is completely out of context and ignores the trend and the level of expectancy. i.e. Pacheco was young, new and developing under Rafa, but had already broken into the match day squad at the end, until Hodgson came along. Its like trying to claim that Roy Evans played no part in Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher or Michael Owen's development. Absolute bullshi...............
You are the world champion in denigrating Liverpool managers unfairly. You must have skin thicker than Neil Ruddock's thighs.
ReplyDeleteSeen as though Rafa was competing in the CL in the first 4 months of last season and not the Europa, he did not have a "play the youth team" policy. So this renders your whole argument NULL AND VOID YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!
ReplyDelete"Just because he signed from the Barcelona youth team doesn't mean he should walk into Liverpool's starting line-up."
ReplyDeleteA complete misrepresentation of the truth from you JK. Fans are not calling for Pacheco just because he came from Barcelona. Nobody is saying that he should just walk into the team, all they have said is that he should get a chance. The reason why is because he was played very well and got the Golden Boot at the U19 Euros, and if you watch reserves games you will know that he has also played very well in the last year or so. You just need to see the goal against Everton reserves a few days ago to see the talent he has.
No-one is saying that he should start for Liverpool every game but at the age of 19 he could be given a chance, in the Europa League for example where Roy has given opportunities to Spearing, Shelvey, Eccleston and Kelly.
"Pacheco had a <span>chance to show his worth and he didn't take it</span>" The same could be said of Babel, but according to you when Babel was dropped after a game it is mismanagement and demotivation and the "Benitez Effect". The hyprocrisy is astounding. The age difference between the two doesn't matter, nor does the time they have been at the club; for you to say that "he had his chance to show his worth but he didn't take it" is exactly what people have been arguing about Babel. Babel was given plenty of opportunities in the last 18 months or he didn;t show his worth in my opinion. That isn't a valid argument according to you, its the Benitez effect, but suddenly it is valid for Pacheco; a 19 year old after one game!"Is it not conceivable that Hodgson and the coaching staff feel that after watching Pacheco play, they've decided that he might not be ready for the step-up yet?"What do you mean by ready? No strong enough, not tactically aware. An explanantion of why he is not ready would be good as only two days ago you said this:"It's time to start allowing creative youth players thrive. It's time to start developing, encouraging and PRIORITISING the attacking talent and technique of young players."It is abundantly clear that Pacheco has raw talent, technique and creativity. So why not let it thrive? Why not give him a chance in the first team? 3-0 up against West ham would have been the perfect opportunity to let him have a run out for 25/30 minutes. You're argument is completely confused. On the one hand you want these naturally creative players to thrive, but now you are arguing against it by saying that the coaches might not believe he is ready to take the step up. Not ready in what way? The raw talent is there. Do you want the creative youth to get a chance or just sit in the reserves and not be tested?
As I said, he is now older. I would expect a player who is breaking into the first team at 18 to be getting less appearances than a player of 19 , the same as next year I would expect Pacheco to be a regular starter.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note, you may want to browbeat people into thinking your opinion is greater than theirs, but putting the word IS in caps and adding "Of course it does" at the end of a statement, does not make your viewpoint any more valid. You almost sound like Benitez stating 'Fact' at the start of a sentence!
er...you are posing as a semi-professional "critical realist" analyst. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE UNBIASED, IMPARTIAL etc.
ReplyDeleteTip: Shut your mouth, do some analysis, make some observations, and then choose a paradigm in which to work. Then you won't have so much hate mail.
I think he,s just going out with him :*
ReplyDeleteYou see, if you actually let the facts do the talking, then we wouldn't be arguing with you. The fact that you see it as "your work" and that you have put an extended effort into cherry-picking statistics out of context in order to uphold your own assumptions proves you are there to be hated.
ReplyDeleteagent kanwar man utd all the way pooson is a bad buy so is paul bone head made pennent look like messi hodgson is a dead man walking taxi for turkeyneck
ReplyDeleteBut there is more truth in his statement than any of yours, and he still has time to have a life. He wins. You lose.
ReplyDelete<span>@ rolando, no Jaimie is NOT a MANC or a Blue fan, he's just a confused fan...</span>
ReplyDelete<span>@ Jaimie </span>
<span>"He is young but it is great that we can keep giving him these opportunities and moments on the field and I think these moments will get even longer as the season progresses." RH 8th September 2010 </span>
<span>After 1 bad game against Northampton he went missing and nearly 3 months later this is what RH got to say </span>
<span>"He's had moments when he's looked good, others when not quite so. He's working on his game. He featured in the unfortunate Northampton game. I</span><span>t was a great opportunity for those outside the first 13 or 14 to really show me. When will he get his chance again? Probably in one of these games in Europe, who knows, maybe he will burst back onto the scene, but it is very difficult to do that in a reserve gam</span><span><span><span><span>e</span>"</span></span></span>
<span>Didn't see Pacheco given longer moments when the season progresses...RH, as usual, got confused, like Jaimie...No wonder Jaimie like RH to stay...</span>
Gary - I've given up responding to your posts because you regularly misrepresent my arguments and deliberately try and put what I say in the wrong light. You also repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge the fairest of points, and argue the opposite just try and prove me wrong. When you start debating fairly, then I'l start responding to your points again.
ReplyDeleteGary - I've given up responding to your posts because you regularly misrepresent my arguments and deliberately try and put what I say in the wrong light. You also repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge the fairest of points, and argue the opposite just try and prove me wrong.
ReplyDeleteA prime example of this is the spurious comparison between babel and Pacheco. Babel had 3 years under Benitez; Pacheco has had 3.5 months under Hodgson. The comparison is ridiculous. But you know that.
When you start debating fairly, then I'l start responding to your points again.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteThere was an article in todays independent and other press stating that Pacheco might be sold in order to reduce the wage bill and as you mentioned Hodgson has already hinted that Pacheco perhaps didn't make the best of his opportunity against Northampton.
Maybe i'm confused and perhaps you are also because in one of the comments above you state that the purpose of this article is to defend the club from media lies regarding pacheco when in fact the article seems to be blaming fans... So Jamie which fans are crying out for Pacheco to play?
Liverpool are not playing well at the moment and given that I don't think Hodgson has worked out what his best team is yet surely this is not the time to be blooding young players!
This would appear to be a press story nothing to do with fans. We have been awful this season and its not like pacheco would have the made the difference in our losses to man city or manchester united!
Furthermore Hodgeson may be giving youth a chance but only in the Europa cup which is fine since his only real target this season is a top four finish. nobody is blaming Hodgson for Pacheco not playing what they are blaming him for and rightly so is Liverpools poor start to the season and patch performance so far.
The Tottenham game on Sunday will be a good indication of whether we have started to turn the corner the pachaceo issue is quite frankly insignificant IMO.
Simple facts appeal to simple minds Jaimie. Pacheco got his chance last season, as the best reserve attacker, because of injuries. He became part of the matchday squad. This season, considering the lack of attacking purchases, the form and subjugation of other senior players, the injuries to Kuyt and Gerrard etc, he should have played a lot more. He should have been named on the bench for virtually everygame, when he was available and considering how many times we have been getting beat or not winning and have been dreadful, he really would have had his chance to CEMENT his staring place, when -AND THIS IS THE CRUCIAL PART - we see how good he fits into the SENIOR team. Instead he has been judged by one game in the "B" team against Northampton, when Shelvey, Spearing, Kelly etc (English players) have been given more chances.
ReplyDeleteThe regressive xenophobic talentophobic English revolution has failed and it is time to bring back the royalty.
He's also had less than 1 season as a first team match-day squad member under Rafa. Your argument is so biased it is virtually on its own planet. Planet Kanwar.
ReplyDeleteHi Guest - Go back to that Independent article and please try and find any quotes from 8anyone* about the Pacheco situation. read it again, and try and isolate anything approaching fact, or supportable inference.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing of the sort. It is opportunist journalism; these journos scour twitter/LFC sites for tidbits/rumours and then make stories out them.
I am defending the club, not the fans. the fans are not the club; the club stands by itself as a separate entity, and it is open to attack from fans and non-fans alike.
Prime example: 'fans' character assassinating Purslow and Broughton, calling for them to be removed. That, IMO, is an attack on the club, mainly because the attack was so out of order and baseless. Just because fans were involved doesn't make it any less of an attack.
I do agree with you though - the Pacheco issue is insignificant. However, using it to attack Hodgson is not insignificant. To see which fans are doing this, just check out twitter and countless LFC forums, as well as newspaper articles posted by apparent LFC fan-journos in the press.
Hi Guest - Go back to that Independent article and please try and find any quotes from *anyone* connected to the club about Pacheco (or indeed quotes from the man himself). Read it again, and try and isolate anything approaching fact, or reasonable, supportable inference.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing of the sort. It is opportunist journalism; these journos scour twitter/LFC sites for tidbits/rumours and then make stories out them.
I am defending the club, not the fans. the fans are not the club; the club stands by itself as a separate entity, and it is open to attack from fans and non-fans alike.
Prime example: 'fans' character assassinating Purslow and Broughton, calling for them to be removed. That, IMO, is an attack on the club, mainly because the attack was so out of order and baseless. Just because fans were involved doesn't make it any less of an attack.
I do agree with you though - the Pacheco issue is insignificant. However, using it to attack Hodgson is not insignificant. To see which fans are doing this, just check out twitter and countless LFC forums, as well as newspaper articles posted by apparent LFC fan-journos in the press.
It seems clear to me that you are determined to condemn any link to the Benitez era, get over it! In the first part of your article you tell us about all of the progress made by players in the reserve team before going on to attack the reserve team coach. Whatever his methods are we seem to be bringing more talent through in the last year since his arrival than ever before. Surely the balanced view is to give Hodgson more time and give credit where credit is due to all levels of the coaching staff.
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeleteMy point is that this is a story started by the media for whatever not fans. I read a lot of LFC football sites and not one has made any comments on this story. Hence my point about this being all insignificant.
I am defending the club, not the fans. the fans are not the club; the club stands by itself as a separate entity, and it is open to attack from fans and non-fans alike.
<span><span>NO. The fans are the club without the fans (whether local or global) the club has no history or character and I can't understand why you would say that! The club is not a separate entity it lives or dies by the support and spirit of the fan base when you go to Anfield or watch it on tv during a European match and you hear the 'you'll never walk alone song' its special and whether you're a scouser born or bred or supporter that is not from liverpool we all get and believe in the magic of the liverpool way that's why we support the team.</span></span>
The independent is a respected newspaper and I cannot believe that they would simply write a story just because they've seen something on twitter or read a football blog. That's being a bit disingenuous. Why can't a simple explanation be the best one? which is that come january Pacheco may go if a decent offer comes in for him that allows Hodgson to buy a player that can go straight into the team.
Now that might not happen for various reasons but the whole gist of this article seems to be a thinly veiled attack on certain liverpool fans that I believe is unwarranted.
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your mission statement is to promote debate, debate starts from personal biases but
ReplyDeleterational participants will temper their arguments from points raised by others otherwise it is lecturing not debate.
I have modified my views on certain points from the informed views of your readership, which on a ratio of 80:20 you tend to denigrate.
<span><span>Proof that Hodgson is doing a great job with youth</span></span>
ReplyDelete* Pacheco was signed in 2007. How many appearances did he make under Rafa Benitez from 2007-2010? <span><span>7 in 3 years</span></span>, with none of them being starts. I don't recall Benitez being castigated for not giving Pacheco more opportunities.
* <span>The season is only 3.5 months old but Pacheco has already made 5 appearances under Hodgson, with two of them being starts (In Europe against Rabotnicki; in the League Cup against Northampton). </span>
* <span>5 appearances in 3.5 months vs. 7 appearances in 3 years</span> (!). And it is Hodgson getting it in the neck? Utter hypocrisy.
* Combined, Dani Pacheco, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing and Martin Kelly managed only 17 appearances <span>for the whole of last season</span>.
* <span>With only <span>3.5 months</span> of this season gone, they already have a combined total of 27 appearances.</span> This is irrefutable proof that Hodgson is giving Liverpool's young players many more chances.
* In Ngog's case, he managed 37 appearances for the whole of last season. With only 3.5 months of the season gone so far, he already has 19 appearances to his name.
* Overall, Hodgson has been fantastic for Liverpool's young players. Jonjo Shelvey, Nathan Eccleston, Jay Spearing, Martin Kelly and David Ngog have all been given regular chances in the first team. Eccelston himself spoke in glowing terms about Hodgson's impact on young players at Liverpool:
<span>I think out of all the teams that are in the Europa League, the gaffer has shown that he is most prepared to put younger players in whereas certain managers wouldn't have. We aIl think he's shown great confidence in us. Every time he's told us to go out there and to remember that we're Liverpool players. We might not be as big names as the other players in the team as of yet, but he has still shown us the same confidence and encouragement that he shows them, so that is great for us.
"I was speaking to Jonjo Shelvey before the game in Turkey [against Trabzonspor] and we were saying how good it was to be involved in nights like that. Jonjo then started against Napoli in front of 55,000 fans. The atmosphere was daunting. It's something that I had never come across before in my life and even though I didn't play, it was still good to sample."</span>
The anti-Hodgson brigade will completely disregard all the positives I've outlined above though. The fact that the majority of *ready* young players are being given a chance doesn't matter; all that apparently matters is the *one* single young player is allegedly not being given a chance.
Is that not a disproportionate and unfair response?! It's like arguing that if a team goes on a run of 9 wins and 1 defeat that single defeat is more important than the 9 wins! In other words, it's ridiculous and unfair thinking.<span>
</span>Superb Jamie.Superb.YOu translated my personal thoughts in <span>number & stats, or facts.</span>The biggest hypocrysy of Pro - Rafa Brigade / Anti - Roy brigade is this ridicoulous attack over the outstanding job with youngesters from Roy.They know well that Roy is doing a magnificent job with the guys, and so They decided to find a stupid excuse to discredit his brilliant results with youngsters.
How have i misrepresented your views? I have quoted you word for word. I'm not making it up am I? I don't try to prove you wrong just for the sake of it, I just think you are usually wrong. Isn't that the point of debate, or would you prefer it if we all just agreed with you? We have different ways of looking at things, you are negative and I am not.
ReplyDeleteYou put your opinion in the public arena and if I want to dissect what you say then so be it. You have no problem doing it to others. John McMahon's quotes are a perfect example. You took that quote and wrote a whole article about how it is ruining the creative youth at Liverpool. Isn't that taking a quote and putting in the wrong light? If you do it to others, expect it to be done to you.
Why is the Babel/Pacheco comparion spurious? You're missing the point, I'm not comparing the two players, I'm saying that you are a hypocrite. When someone says that Babel has had his chance to show his worth, you disagree and attribute it to the Benitez effect, yet after one full game for Liverpool Pacheco has, in your words not mine, had "a chance to show his worth and didn't". Why is it ok for you to say that about Pacheco but wrong for others to say it about Babel?
You lack consistency in what you say, and all I have done is shown that with actual quotes. I don't care if you don't respond to be honest. The fact is that most of my opinions are valid, and you don't actually have an answer to them which is why you don't respond. I take the time to do a bit of research and actually look at what you have said, whereas there are others who just comment. You are the one who actually has an inability to debate properly.
I cannot see how Gary's assessment of your post is anyway wrong, opposed to your view but then are not most liverpool supporters - how do I know this read other blogs, read your blogs comments, look at results from the Liverpool Echo poll, talk to other fans at the game, in the pub.
ReplyDeleteThe Babel comment is not spurious rather an example to highlight your inconsistencies.
To refuse to debate valid opposing views makes a mockery of your declared intent.
Jamie. You do like to distort things to suit your agenda. They've BOTH had 3.5 months under Hodgson. That's what matters... Yet one should be given leniency and the other shouldn't.
ReplyDeleteYou can't use the time factor (one that you constantly bring out in your defence this season) in this situation. It doesn't apply....
So fans attacking Purslow etc are attacking the club? Which you defend? Yet you attack club employees and that is ok? Ps The fans ARE the club. The single most important thing about it, it's heartbeat. Same for all footall clubs. No fans = no club. Your hypocrisy is frightening, honestly.
ReplyDeleteSorry, gary. I've had enough of your sniping. You have blatantly misrepresented my views, and you cannot even see that the way you interpret what I wrote was wrong. And it is not just this time: you have done this consistently over the last year. No matter what I post, you will pick things out and try and argue that I am saying the *opposite* of what I actually meant. You do this because you want to discredit me because you don't like this site or my views.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with people arguing the points, but when people *deliberately* twist the meaning of what I write and then try and suggest that what I originally wrote means something entirely different, then that's where the line is drawn.
Your posts are underpinned by a palpable personal dislike for this site and it's views. This leads you to do what I've described above. I have never been less than civil towards you, and I have never tried to misrepresent your views on anything.
There are plenty of people who take my arguments apart on here and advance fair counter arguments without trying to deliberately misrepresent my opinions. When you start doing that then your posts will go live again.
But you clearly don't like this site so why bother?
Why do you think he hasn't had the same level of 1st team involvement since the Northampton game? He has been in 0 of 12 first team squad since then, while he was in 8 of 11 squads previous to that game -only missing man utd, arsenal; and also rabotnicki 1st leg-due to international duty. From that point alone, it seems clear he has been treated differently since, but why!? Especially as other youth such as shelvey, ecclestone continued to flourish.. However to suggest anything more sinister is going on is simply derived from media bs in my opinion!
ReplyDeleteYes, without fans there is no club, but for you, it's only the *matchgoing* fans that matter, right? From what I've read from you on this site, you prioritise the those fans over the 99% of fans who constitute the worldwide fanbase.
ReplyDeletere Purslow and Broughton: there is a very obvious difference. When criticism is warranted and fair, it is okay. It is part of life and should be expected. The criticism and character assassination of Purslow and Broughton was an absolute disgrace and completely without basis, expecially since those two were hugely responsible for doing what the fans wanted: i.e. getting rid of H+G.
Criticism of Benitez was warranted. Criticism of Hodgson is warranted (that's criticism, not calling for him to be sacked). Criticism of any player/employee of the club is warranted IF it's fair, reasonable and necessary.
Unfair, unreasonable professional and personal denigration of club empoyees is out of order, and that is an attack on the club (IMO).
I have done nothing of the sort in my criticism of Benitez. Ever.
Spot on, Gary. You've just given Jamie a taste of his own remedy... and he didn't like it a bit. But then again he's not here to like or be liked. To do costructive criticism, aka manipulate facts to his interest, and right now is defending Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteI was always critical of Rafa's use of the youngsters, like Adam Hammill, for example.
Unfortunatelly we now have a manager that prefers to buy older, experienced horrible players instead of giving our youngsters a chance. My guess is fear. And I can't really look at Roy's face and see any hint of a corageous and audacious manager anywhere... but maybe that's just me. Let's see what his results tell us. So far... not so good.
I am sure Pacheco will get more games this season and I am sure he will perform good when he does get a run of games. At the end of the day if the manager gives him his chance and he does good, credit to the manager, If he doesnt give him his chance and he leaves and does well for another club, add it to the failings of the manager, its as simple as that. The worying thing for liverpool is that this season is crucial that we finish 4th and keep torres and reina among others, otherwise this may act as a catylist for the younger players to seek another club. For a youngster, the fact of uprooting to another country is one thing but to wantch the manager who signed you leave and then possibly watching your national heros leave, what would you want to do?? The youth under benitez did quite well,2 youth cups and 1 runner up so they must have been doing something right compared to the rest of the country. I agree totally that Roy is giving the youth a chance but to be fair his main aim is to get us playing good football and climbing the table, otherwise we wont be quarreling about whether we think pacheco is getting a game, We will be all wondering who will be replacing torres, reina and others.
ReplyDeleteI agree to some extent, but he does need encouragement and rewards for his effort. As stated by someone before, a whole host of players from the Northampton game have been given a chance in the team. He can't just judge him after 1 performance, where actually he didn't stink as much as the others. I'm all for Shelvey and Ecclestone to be given their chance, that is fantastic, but you have to see it from Dani's point of view. He's been playing in the reserves for years and has shone in the U19 European Champs this summer. He keeps hearing coaches and managers saying he will get a chance. Now he sees Ngog, Shelvey and Ecclestone given a chance. Ngog has done quite well, but Shelvey and Ecclestone have been passable. Isn't time he got more of a sniff of the first team based on performances and his undoubted potential. The west ham game was perfect for him to be on the bench. I just don't get how Hodgson is critical of him when others who played in the Northampton game get their chance.
ReplyDeleteHodgson also says that he can't really judge from reserve games. Well either put him in the first team or send him om loan. DO NOT send him on loan to Spain. That would be useless. If we want to use him in the Prem, then he must go on loan to a Prem side. Just like Wilshire and Welbeck. If you send him to Spain, you won't know if he can play in England, plus he will prob decide to stay in Spain, like San Jose or Aqua in Italy.
Jaimie sometimes you are way too over reactionary and willing to defend Hodgson way too much. All us Liverpool fans are saying is that he is a star for Spain's U19, many coaches around Europe see him as a talent, so why can't he be on the bench instead of Babel or Jova. He could have the same impact as Macheda. It's not rocket science. He is eager to give Shelvey a chance who actually hasn't been that impressive, so why not give Dani and chance who has been plying his trade in the reserves for years.
We either use him or we lose him.
he has a point about suso though....you just made a post slagging off mcmahon's ideology and talking about how he needs to quit stunting attacking players.
ReplyDeletehow does that sit with what's happened to pacheco? he has shown more at all levels than suso has, so he should be getting more support....
you talk about all the appearances he's ahd this year, in only 3.5 months, but all of his appearances have come in the FIRST MONTH of that 3.5; form a trend analysis standpoint, his appearances are on a downward slope.
and that ignores the fact that from a developmental perspective he should be getting more appearances that in previous years, and that the level of competition faced at the beginning of this year is markedly lower than that of previous years.
comparing minutes played in the premier league, and extrapolating time-lagged statistics from it would be a better indicator of whether he's actually being used more than last year, or more than what is general practice for young, developing players.
face facts mate: this is wildly inconsistent with two articles you've put out in the past week, and if you're going to post your opinions on the internet and allow readers to provide input via a comments board, you have to accept that they will spot and address hypocracy wherever it may be.
either stay consistent with your foundation of "TRUTH, FACTS, & CRITICAL REALISM" or simply call this what it appears to be: your opinion based (not facts-based) editorial website, which is full of personal bias.
if you simply admitted that your articles were coloured with your personal biases and likes/dislikes, nobody could come on here and criticize you for voicing them.
~OSI
Honestly now, how on earth do you come to these conclusions?
ReplyDeleteIt is a fact that you denigrated Rafa by constantly lying about him, but we are not at all allowed to call Hodgson W------oy????
It is a fact that Purslow and Broughton brought Roy to the club as well as *PLAY THEIR PART* in getting rid of H&G. I'm afraid the former outweighs the latter, especially considering the denigration came before they had got rid of them, when they were looking at new owners before September.
I agree that the fans and club are *technically* separate in terms of decision making and liability, but the problem is very much that the matchgoing fans, particularily those with a voice, like ex-players and journalists, did their utmost to get rid of Rafa for no valid reason and forced a pathetic English coup on the club that has failed because it was based on untruths, many of which you helped to create.
This is mess is your mess, it is Roy's mess, it is Purslows mess. But you are all clinging on desperately hoping for a miracle when you are simply not wanted, BY 99% OF THE WORLDWIDE FANBASE!!!!
Jamie you are so right...as always.....you are so right about time, 3yrs and 3.5months...its unfair to compare
ReplyDeletebut does that only apply when you want it to or does it stand the same for everyone ...regardless????
Rafa has been in management for 15years and is still learning the trade and will therefore make mistakes along the way but has managed to aquire skills that are different from 4-4-2 and kick the ball as high and far away as possible ....
the GREAT ROY HODGSON has been in management for 40 years .. yes 40 YEARS...and he is still trying to master 4-4-2.........what went wrong???
as for a manager that prefers JAY SPEARING over DANI PACHECO....something is wrong and it sure is not RAFA's fault....
and since this message disagree's with you and TRIGGER...i suppose it will be deleted
Mysterious case of disappearing comments supporting opposing views to your own without personal attack
ReplyDeleteNonsense. I never personally attack managers, call them names etc. I am critical, but my criticism is warranted, and always backed up with reasons and, where possible, evidence. Criticising a manager is not denigrating; calling a manager names, and making fun of a speech impediment IS denigrating.
ReplyDeleteGood points...there is big difference between critiscism and nasty personal denigration.
ReplyDeleteThere is also the issue of morale. Watching the recent game at west ham, and the abuse that A Grant made me think. True fans want the club to do well, ideally playing good football, but positive results are vital. Now, whatever people think of Roy,
* NESV have clearly backed him. It seems inconcievable that he will be sacked in the near future.
* results have undoubtedly improved...2 be 2nd in the league just behind man u over last seven games in terms of form.....thats impressive
So, to be pragmatic, it makes sense for our manager to feel supported by fans. Generally when people feel valued, they perform with more confidence and are less likely to be as cautious in their work because they feel more trusted.
It disappoints me when I hear about people tweeting JH to sack Roy. Firstly its pointless anyway as JH has made it perfectly clear that RH has his full support, and I think everyone agrees that he is man that seems to stick to what he says. Furthermore, IMO there is consesus that LFC fans are generally considered and tend to give their managers a decent chance. I hope that JH feels that we do trust his decsions and his long term plans.
Maybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should sign up to join some Scum or Blueshite forums.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, all players have to develop areas of their game that are weak. If you occupy midfield positions especially, you need to responsible from a defensive point of a view as well as a offensive point. They are trying to create more complete players i.e. like Steven Gerrard. A team must attack as a team and also defend as one. The players in attacking roles may not have to tackle too much but forcing the play and narrowing options are fundamentals of any professional player. Attacking McMahon for perfect advise and assessment of developing youth players is stupid and to me shows a lack of your own footballing experience and knowledge. If you play football to a high level, you would understand and accept the comments. Also Hodgson instructed him to play Pacheco in wide roles and when he said play him in several roles- he simply means wide roles are more than one (i.e. left winger, right winger, left forward etc etc).
ReplyDeleteBenitez firstly recognised these players and in most cases brought them to the club. And quite simply as a player gets older he will play more games and you forget some of these players were loaned out. Players have to develop into system and club ethics before being thrown in at the deep end, this is the premier league not the conference. Some players simply aren't good enough and would represent a huge risk at which the media would crucify the manager. They have to be given time to nuture raw talent into capable players.
he has a point about suso though....you just made a post slagging off mcmahon's ideology and talking about how he needs to quit stunting attacking players.
ReplyDeleteI did not slag off McMahon's ideology. That suggests a personal attack. I questioned his coaching philosophy, and I did it in a fair manner.
how does that sit with what's happened to pacheco? he has shown more at all levels than suso has, so he should be getting more support....
Did you even read the article? There is a whole section at the end where I argue that Pacheco has possibly been a victim of Liverpool's outdated coaching philosophy.
you talk about all the appearances he's ahd this year, in only 3.5 months, but all of his appearances have come in the FIRST MONTH of that 3.5; form a trend analysis standpoint, his appearances are on a downward slope.
No, that's your negative interpretation. Is it not equally possible that Hodgson and the coaching team believe that he needs more time in the reserves before making the stp-up again? Is it not possible that they believe that Shelvey, Eccleston etc are in a position to contribute more to the team at this stage? if not, why not? Just because Pacheco hasn't played for a while doesn't mean he's on the scrapheap. He scored for the reserves midweek, and played well, which shows he is responding well to whatever approach has been applied.
and that ignores the fact that from a developmental perspective he should be getting more appearances that in previous years, and that the level of competition faced at the beginning of this year is markedly lower than that of previous years.
Yes, and he IS getting more appearances than pervious years. Last season, he made 7 appearances over 9 months. This season, he has made 5 appearances in 3.5 months. He is already ahead of the curve. Extrapolated over a whole season, that roughly equates to 15 appearances, which is twice as many as last season.
Based on Hodgson's record with LFC youth so far, it is more than likely that Pacheco will make more than 15 appearances this season. As I pointed out in the article, Eccleston, Spearing, pacheco and Kelly managed only 17 apps last seaso between them. After only 3.5 months this season, the combined total is already 27 appearances, which is a 37% increase in youth appearances in only the first 3.5 months! Why do you and others just disregard this? it is fact: hodgson is playing young players more this season.
face facts mate: this is wildly inconsistent with two articles you've put out in the past week,
There is nothing inconsistent at all. Please explain HOW the two articles you refer to are inconsistent, with specific examples. Don't just say it, prove it.
if you're going to post your opinions on the internet and allow readers to provide input via a comments board, you have to accept that they will spot and address hypocracy wherever it may be.
I do accept that, but only when it's valid. You can't just turn up and say 'this is inconsistent' then provide no valid or credible reason why, which is what you have done.
Either stay consistent with your foundation of "TRUTH, FACTS, & CRITICAL REALISM" or simply call this what it appears to be: your opinion based (not facts-based) editorial website, which is full of personal bias.
You are taking that tagline way too literally, and deliberately probably. To argue that it means that I will only ever post facts is ridiculous in the extreme. The 'critical realism' part means I will give my opinions; that is blindlingly obvious. The 'facts' part [...]
Ridiculous defence of an average manager who has made a disastrous start to his career at LFC (and I'm not just referring to the football). How many players has he publicly criticised now? He's criticised everybody apart from himself (the owners are bad for the club, the fans shouldn't protest, the reserve team let me down against Northampton, Johnson's no good, Pacheco has blown his chance, Benitez bought these poor players, the media are all over me......blah blah blah).
ReplyDeleteYet you choose to defend this old fool and still try to spin it in an anti-Benitez way. There is no other explanation. You are clearly doing it to get a reaction.
Well done.
Good point...i did think the Wh game wld have been a perfect chance for him. I think Roy has indicated that he will get chances in upcoming EL games.
ReplyDeleteIf he goes on loan, I like your idea about it being in the premiership as opposed to La Liga...Spot on! As u say, if goes to La Liga he may well deicide not to come back...also its important he gets used to the style of play in the prem.
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ReplyDeletedidnt danny p get disciplined for bad time keeping in his club duties, this may explain some of recent omissions?
also strikes me these noises of pachenco moving may be classic negotioation technique from the pachenco camp. - court interest/apply for a job with another employer and hey presto ur bosses suddenly value u more.
after watching the likes of ngog Id do the same if i was danny.
Also more of our fans seem to be falling for the press/media/website forum tricks - interviews,qoutes,snipets,soundbites etc,, all conjured to produce some kind of a story. hodgsons been caught out a lot this season like that - these days fans are super critical with even a partial comment, everything is played over and anyalised - its no wonder thinhs can be taken out of proprtion.
u just cant trust what is published the independant article today is barley a whisper its nothing.
the top english league is tougher than ever I see pachenco as a bench impact player i dont see him doing a ful shift yet.
ive seen the academy comments recently and what i feel is they are beefing up his all round game,this pocket venus type player ( maradonna etc..) need to be able to look after themselves , look at how wenger gradually bloods his youngsters.i hope to see dp bak soon, and we have seen some good performances from others this year.
I think JKs article here is still taking issue with fans calling for the manager to be culled, and who can blame him?
Another regime change wud be an attroucious move - when has any top team ever changed a manger so soon in the seasson and made a sucess of it ?
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Jaimie, could the amount of chances given to them also be attributed to the fact that the world cup was held in the summer i.e. they were chosen out of necessity rather than the desire to give them a chance??
ReplyDeletePachecho v Babel
ReplyDelete+ Babel converted from a left sided striker and asked to play left defensive midfield
+ Pachecho recently been converted from a 'number 10' to a left/ right defensive midfielder (not winger)
+ Babel. After finding out that Babel was unanable to be converted into a semi left back there was no 'plan b' on the part of either Benitez or hodgson.
+ Pacheco. After coming on as a substite last season against 'somoeone :-[ ' and creating the winning goal Rafa says in an interview that pachecho will not be used because senior players need to be given a game. The senior player in question was voronin. WHY? If your good enough your old enough right?
This isn't my best post :-[ .......BUT If I was a young player I would never consider signing for Liverpool. Mark Kennedy a few years back springs to mind. We pay a record fee for for a teenager and stick them in the reserves to experience the 'Liverpool way >:o ' Jonjo and spearing will very soon feel the impact of the 'liverpool way' when they are in the chanmpionship with Hammil, anderson and Potter with their confidence completely shattered. LFC needs to take a long hard look at their footballing phillosphy over the last 20 years and then sit in shame as we come to terms with the fact that Souness (the destroyer of LFC!) was the only manager who actually showed geniune faith in our young players and gave them a good crack of the whip. It is shockingly ironic that our worst manager ifor 20yrs brought through the last bunch of youth players that I would genuinely pay to watch.
you what?
ReplyDeleteAgree with most of what you say in the article; just the one thing though - while Roy has given chances to many of the youngsters and this is definitely a positive thing - what has Pacheco done wrong that Shelvey for example hasn't? Shelvey was absolutely dreadful against Napoli for example, I think Roy has leant towards giving the English youngsters a go whilst ignoring some incredibly talented foreign youngsters. Whatever you may think about the standard of opposition Pacheco has played against for Spain or in the reserves, the fact is that he is head and shoulders above that level so why not play him? It's not like the first team would be guaranteed to walk all over Everton reserves after all.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the youth policy from another angle, Roy hodgson has nearly 40 years of management experience but has never managed a team long term, with the average tenure about 2 years. Who was the last person he developed into a world class player??? It cant be many, Unlike his counterparts of a similar experience, the likes of Ferguson and Wenger who have a vast experience of developing players through the system as they look at the future. I hear NESV are looking to overhaul the youth system, I am sure they will ask Roy ' With your wealth of 40 years experience as a manager who was the last player you developed that reached the highest realms within football?'. If that question where now posed to good managers with the same experince, the likes of ferguson, wenger, hiddink, would they have a problem answering??
ReplyDelete* NESV have clearly backed him. It seems inconcievable that he will be sacked in the near future. <span>
ReplyDelete</span>
I beg your pardon. Bringing in Damien Comolli over Hodgsons head does not demonstrate backing to me my friend. It infzct demonstrates the opposite.
Uve hit the nail on the head
ReplyDeleteIt could be argued that Comolli has been brought in as part of the long term rebuilding programme that NESV's youth driven policy involves. I maintain that NESV and JH are backing Roy to manage the team at least up to the summer. They possiibly dont look to Roy to rebuild the team long term however. Baring total capitulation in the league (which I am 99.99% sure will not happen), I cannot see NESV sacking Roy before the summer. I offer these recent quotes to support my claim:
ReplyDelete<span>We tend to stay with our managers, that's been our history. Roy didn't build this </span>team<span>, so I think he's been unfairly criticised this year. I think of it as my role at this point to support him in every way I can, make sure he has the resources to accomplish what he wants to accomplish, and he is our manager and there's no change that's imminent."</span>
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"This club can be better and blaming the manager or any one particular player is simply wrong,"
I agree Shelvey did have a poor game. I think its fair to say that Pacheco has made a strong case for a first team chance with recent performances. Roy has indicated that he will probably be given opportunities, esp in upcoming EL games..I hope Roy sticks to this plan.
ReplyDeleteGood point....furthermore who could we bring in? Finding a manager who has the right energy and pedigree for the club, and who wants to stay here as part of a long term project is going to take considerable time and effort.
ReplyDeleteIt could be that person is probably managing another club at the moment.. a man of integrity who would not want to jump ship half way through a season. Hiddink has ruled out club level management. Kenny Dalglish is mentioned but how do we know he would be interested?
Furthermore I agree with your point re.. regime change now would be a bad move, especially as results are really picking up. It has worked in the past (ie losing ramos at spurs) but their situation was far removed from LFC at the moment, a team with the second best prem record over the last 7 games. I don't see RH as a long term solution, however he has been given a tough job to do. and I'm sure he will be here till the summer at least. As fans we owe it to Roy, as part of the LFC team, to give him our support.
- his coaching ideology and his coaching philosophy are analogous. And a criticism of either one does not suggest a personal attack, despite how negative that criticism is, so I can't understand how you determined I was insinuating you making a personal attack (although its probably due to the defensive nature you've had to take up due to this site).
ReplyDelete- are you suggesting that the reserve team coach has more say on the usage of what was formerly a first team squad member that the manager does? Because when you say that his diminished presence in the team is because of mcmahon's ideology, and considering that he had five appearances in the first month of the season then suddenly ZERO, it begs the question of whether 1) hodgson is supportive of the ideology that is stunting pacheco's growth, or 2) hodgson is subordinate to it. Otherwise, if he opposed the treatment of the lad he could simply put him in the matchday squad and play him (assuming he had the authority). As there is no proof that mcmahon is pulling the strings I think its safe to assume that he is at the very least working within his ideology, with hodgson's blessing....having said that, he should have gotten an article more in line with what you wrote about suso, since he has shown more at reserve level, and senior level (as evidenced by suso having gotten ZERO appearances)....
- statisticians do not use a sample size of an entire year when there is only 3.5 months worth of data...that leads to statistical skewing and data misrepresentation (basically, a falsification of the truth). Taking the 3.5 months as the full sample size, the distribution of pacheco's appearances reads as such: month 1: 5 appearances; Month 2: ZERO appearances; Month 3: ZERO appearances; Month 4 (so far): ZERO appearances....when plotted, this results in a negative slope, which is indicative of a DECLINE. What might happen in the next 9 months is statistically irrelevant, because he could just as easily play every game as play none.
- people come to the conclusion that it goes beyond what he does on the pitch because the people getting a chance instead of him have not proven themselves as better than him, at least not in the sense that you demand proof on this site. Eccleston and shelvey have not contributed more to the success of the team, from a statistical standpoint (I.e. Goals, assists, passes, etc.) than pacheco, and neither have done more at the reserve level. The only supposition you make that is credible is that the coaching staff have made a decision, based on what they see and their expertise.....but then that is a contradiction of the antiquated philosophy of the LFC coaching staff that you mentioned in your other article....as is your assertion that "He scored for the reserves midweek, and played well, which shows he is responding well to whatever approach {presumably the antiquated one that stunts flair players like pacheco} has been applied"
- its a tacit misrepresentation of the facts to state the number of games played by those youngsters when eccleston was on loan and kelly was injured long-term (after breaking into the matchday squad. It's the same as wondering how we lost to northampton when we had torres, gerrard, reina, carra, etc. for the game. Clearly they weren't available for selection (although they had a greater opportunity than an injured kelly or loaned out eccleston). I would be interested to see the numbers of appearances vs games actually available for selection.
- in what usage of the english language is the term "critical realism" synonymous with "biased opinion"??
Lastly, if you insist on people not denigrating you or hodgson in their posts, the VERY LEST you should do is reciprocate. In your response you have insulted my ability to read and comprehend, [...]
Nonsense - well I agree with that.
ReplyDeleteOK, I like many others call him Woy. I didn't invent this term. I started using it before I made up my mind about him, and I can guarantee you most Scousers would use it affectionately if things were going right. Its actually more of a cockney thing than an actual speech impediment thing, as in "awight bwuv".
What you do on the other hand is attempt to assinate anybody you don't like or exposes you as a fraud - by continuing your lies and misinformation - EVEN when it is debunked in a civilised manner.
What you fail to understand is that you are in the wrong and virtually everybody can see it, so you can take the moral high ground all you want - your still doomed to be remember as the biggest plonker to ever associate himself with LFC - even more so than Roy and THAT is saying something!
Nothing mysterious about that kenzo. Surviving opposing views are rarer than a Roy away win.
ReplyDeleteIn blog years Jaimie is in a similar position. All these tetrabytes and he hasn't developed a single true statement. Or a single "critique" that hasn't ended up making him look ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteOf course it's not Hodgson's fault that Pacheco is not in the squad, he's only the manager afterall. It must be that Benitez' fault and that what's it called oh yeah that strange phenomenon only heard off on this site the Benitez effect.
ReplyDeleteIn reality Hodgson has only used the young lads when he's not had much choice or when he completley misjudged the strength of Northampton and didn't put a senior player on the bench to help the youngsters out.
Jamie I have no idea what you are smoking but I want to by sum from u
ReplyDeleteThat article (if its the same one referred to) by Ian Herbert is shocking, with blatant lies in!! This what I wrote in the comments:
ReplyDeleteReally poor article. That RH sentence is just one part of the whole quote. The rest of Roy's quote (which is not mentioned) states that he may next have a chance in an EL game. There is no mention/ statement or evidence from anyone at the club or representing DP that he is to be leaving in Jan.
Secondly, and this is where my main grievance lies, is the mention that Sammy Lee told ryan babel to stop training is completely unfounded. Babel never confirms or mentions Sammy Lee by name..in fact his later tweets mention that there were other assistant managers working at the time, and he refused to name the person in question. I would like Ian Herbert to answer these points please. This smacks of sloppy journalism..totally not what I thought the Independent stood for.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading this website now on and off for two years now and in all of that time despite me not agreeing with everything you've had to say I've enjoyed coming here and reading the comments and taking in the debate. But today I have to say that you deleting of Gary's last comment disappointed me. Gary for me has always been one of the most considered commentators on this site IMO his comments were always thoughtful and you could tell that he'd taken the time to think about things before posting.
His last comment before it disappeared IMO was reasonable - he asked you to explain why the two recent articles on pacheco and Babel were not hypocritical when in one you arguing that Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. This is a point that was made by another commentator so I don't really see it as sniping.
At the end of the day its your website so you can do what you want but I would ask you to think about what it is you want this website to become? Do you want it to become a website where you delete any comment that you argue is misrepresenting your view which is purely subjective.... afterall that's what debating is about presenting views and arguing. You don't have to reply to Gary but deleting his comment which did not insult you and where Gary used your own comments to argue his point IMO legitimate.
If you are going to start deleting comments then you are just encouraging people from posting comments in case you decide that they are suddenly misrepresenting your view and therefore the comment is removed. This is not what happens on other websites isn't it? I thought that this website was different...
Come KANWAR and tickle my balls...
ReplyDeleteI write this not because I want to respond particularly if you're just going to tell me not to come to this website if I don't like how you run it ;-)
ReplyDeleteIts just that in my mind I think you've gone over the top deleting Gary's comment which was perfectly valid and which another poster made a few posts later. Was he also misrepresenting your views? It seems to me that you have taken a personal dislike to Gary because he dared to try to pick apart your articles. Well isn't that why you post them up? otherwise why allow comments.
Anyway that's my view.
<span>Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading this website now on and off for two years now and in all of that time despite me not agreeing with everything you've had to say I've enjoyed coming here and reading the comments and taking in the debate. But today I have to say that you deleting of Gary's last comment disappointed me. Gary for me has always been one of the most considered commentators on this site IMO his comments were always thoughtful and you could tell that he'd taken the time to think about things before posting.
His last comment before it disappeared IMO was reasonable - he asked you to explain why the two recent articles on pacheco and Babel were not hypocritical when in one you arguing that Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. This is a point that was made by another commentator so I don't really see it as sniping.
At the end of the day its your website so you can do what you want but I would ask you to think about what it is you want this website to become? Do you want it to become a website where you delete any comment that you argue is misrepresenting your view which is purely subjective.... afterall that's what debating is about presenting views and arguing. You don't have to reply to Gary but deleting his comment which did not insult you and where Gary used your own comments to argue his point IMO legitimate.
If you are going to start deleting comments then you are just encouraging people from posting comments in case you decide that they are suddenly misrepresenting your view and therefore the comment is removed. This is not what happens on other websites isn't it? I thought that this website was different... More<span>reply</span><span>delete</span><span>Guest</span> replies:Today, 21:41:01I write this not because I want to respond particularly if you're just going to tell me not to come to this website if I don't like how you run it <img></img>
Its just that in my mind I think you've gone over the top deleting Gary's comment which was perfectly valid and which another poster made a few posts later. Was he also misrepresenting your views? It seems to me that you have taken a personal dislike to Gary because he dared to try to pick apart your articles. Well isn't that why you post them up? otherwise why allow comments.
Anyway that's my view.<span>
</span></span>
<span>Jamie,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading this website now on and off for two years now and in all of that time despite me not agreeing with everything you've had to say I've enjoyed coming here and reading the comments and taking in the debate. But today I have to say that you deleting of Gary's last comment disappointed me. Gary for me has always been one of the most considered commentators on this site IMO his comments were always thoughtful and you could tell that he'd taken the time to think about things before posting.
His last comment before it disappeared IMO was reasonable - he asked you to explain why the two recent articles on pacheco and Babel were not hypocritical when in one you arguing that Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. This is a point that was made by OSI so I don't really see it as sniping and you didn't delete his comment.
At the end of the day its your website so you can do what you want but I would ask you to think about what it is you want this website to become? Do you want it to become a website where you delete any comment that you argue is misrepresenting your views which is purely subjective.... afterall that's what debating is about presenting views and arguing. You don't have to reply to Gary but deleting his comment which did not insult you and where Gary used your own comments to argue his point IMO was legitimate. </span>
<span>
If you are going to start deleting comments then you are just discouraging people from posting comments in case you decide that they are suddenly misrepresenting your view and therefore the comment is removed. This is what happens on other websites isn't it? I thought that this website was different...<span>
</span></span>
<span>I write this not because I want to respond! particularly if you're just going to tell me not to come to this website if I don't like how you run it <img></img>
ReplyDeleteIts just that in my mind I think you've gone over the top deleting Gary's comment which was perfectly valid and which another poster made a few posts later. Was he also misrepresenting your views? It seems to me that you have taken a personal dislike to Gary because he dared to try to pick apart your articles. Well isn't that why you post them up? otherwise why allow comments.
<span>Anyway that's my view you can delete it or not respond to it or ignore it doesn't bother me.
</span></span>
kanwar numb nuts
ReplyDeleteThink you're getting a very unfair response. I happen to agree with your article. I am yet to be converted to Roy's way of managing the team, but using the Dani Pacheco 'story' as evidence against him really is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteWe all want him to be the new Iniesta, but one good tournament does not a good player make. We're not there in training day in day out, and also Ecclestone, Shelvey, Spearing etc all keep thanking Roy for the chances they're getting and stating how they're determined to break into the team. We haven't really heard that from Pacheco since he got back from the Euro19s.
What we have here is a manager who has no track record of success employed by a board with no track record in football now being mulled over by owners who are reticent to sack a manager after taking part in a fan catalysed-coup.
ReplyDeleteThey know he isn't the man, they are waiting for him to lose a couple on the trot (which is inevitable) while they make sure they have got the right man. They know full well Roy can't be trusted to buy and develop young players as per their vision, that is why Comolli has been brought in.
Mr. Hodgson dislikes the Spanish contingent at LFC simples. Reina, Torres, our Argies, Masch and Insua, and now Pacheo have at one time or another during the past 3.5 months meandering near the bottom of the league felt ostracized by Roy. Why ? They want to be coached/managed by someone on the Top 150 managers list per the IFFHS website, or at least someone who can roll their Rs. Look it up Mourinho, Whiskey Nose, Wenger, Rafa, they are all up there, but where is Roy ? You want irrefutable facts, well in the words of Rafa, those are the FACTS.
ReplyDelete<span>His last comment before it disappeared IMO was reasonable - he asked you to explain why the two recent articles on pacheco and Babel were not hypocritical when in one you arguing that Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. This is a point that was made by OSI so I don't really see it as sniping and you didn't delete his comment. </span>
ReplyDeleteThat right there is the point. I did NOT argue that Pacheco "<span>had plenty of games' to prove himself". He even has you believing that! I argued nothing of the sort, and I am sick of people twisting what I say deliberately. The only way someone could come up with that is if they deliberately twist what I wrote.
</span>
Post the section from my article where I stated that Pacheco had had enough games to prove himself! I stated:
Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it. Granted, it's just one game - and I do not think he should be cast aside just for that - but no one is saying he *has* been cast aside. <span></span>
My meaning is obvious: Pacheco had a chance *tin the Northampton game* to show his worth but he didn't take it. Check the preceding quote from Hodgson: it was about the Northampton game.
I then said it was only one game and he should not be cast aside, with the main point being that he *hasn't* been cast aside at all (that's just what the anti-Hodgson gang want us to think).
I've also argued that it's only 3.5 months into the season, and that Pacheco can and should get more chances this season.
That has absolutely no relation to the Babel situation. Babel was repeatedly demotivated by Benitez; this is not the same with Pacheco, which is what I'm trying to argue here.
I like Gary posts but recently he has been on a mission to twist everything I say and try and attacj a negative meaning that doesn't exist to everything I say.
He can still post; his comments are held for moderation before going live. I am not going to have people trying to unfairly discredit me with misinformation on my own site.
I have not banned him permanently; I will remove the ban in a few days, and as long as he - or anyone else - refrains from deliberately twisting the meaning of what i write (just for the sole purpose of trying to make me look bad) there won't be a problem.
He's either brilliant at sarcasm or a complete retard, not sure which.
ReplyDelete<span>His last comment before it disappeared IMO was reasonable - he asked you to explain why the two recent articles on pacheco and Babel were not hypocritical when in one you arguing that Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. This is a point that was made by OSI so I don't really see it as sniping and you didn't delete his comment. </span>
ReplyDeleteThat right there is the point. I did NOT argue that Pacheco "<span>had plenty of games' to prove himself". He even has you believing that! I argued nothing of the sort, and I am sick of people twisting what I say deliberately. The only way someone could come up with that is if they deliberately twist what I wrote. </span>
Post the section from my article where I stated that Pacheco had had enough games to prove himself! I stated:
Pacheco had a chance to show his worth and he didn't take it. Granted, it's just one game - and I do not think he should be cast aside just for that - but no one is saying he *has* been cast aside. <span></span>
My meaning is obvious: Pacheco had a chance *tin the Northampton game* to show his worth but he didn't take it. Check the preceding quote from Hodgson: it was about the Northampton game.
I then said it was only one game and he should not be cast aside, with the main point being that he *hasn't* been cast aside at all (that's just what the anti-Hodgson gang want us to think).
I've also argued that it's only 3.5 months into the season, and that Pacheco can and should get more chances this season.
That has absolutely no relation to the Babel situation. Babel was repeatedly demotivated by Benitez; this is not the same with Pacheco, which is what I'm trying to argue here.
I like Gary posts but recently he has been on a mission to twist everything I say and try and attacj a negative meaning that doesn't exist to everything I say.
He can still post; his comments are held for moderation before going live. I am not going to have people trying to unfairly discredit me with misinformation on my own site.
I have not banned him permanently; I will remove the ban in a few days, and as long as he - or anyone else - refrains from deliberately twisting the meaning of what i write (just for the sole purpose of trying to make me look bad) there won't be a problem.
Totally agree, Sumon. People think that jus because the Independent or the Guardian write something that it must be accurate because they're so called 'quality' papers. They trade in the same kind of minsinformation as the tabloids.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not true. There is no personal aspect here. It is Gary who has the personal problem. I have been reading his comments since day one; you have not, therefore I am in a better position to see the progression of his views on this site. And he has got to the stage where he is regularly and deliberately misrepresenting/twisting my views on practically everything. I responded earlier in the thread to your other post - you are also guilt of doing the same thing - you've just adopted what he said without even checking what i actually wrote in the article.
ReplyDeleteThat is the problem: someone will twist what I wrote and then someone else will come along and repeat it. Please read my earlier reply to your comment.
Torres9 - You slag off this site on Live4Liverpool and then you come here and post? Why?
ReplyDeletehttp://live4liverpool.com/2010/11/view-from-the-kop/the-biggest-stumbling-block-for-nesv%E2%80%99s-stadium-plans#comment-46977
That's kind of two-faced, wouldn't you say?
You could argue that but there's no evidence to back it up. It's just conjecture, isn't it? And it's negative conjecture that - quelle surprise - puts Hodgson in a bad light.
ReplyDeletePacheco is crap. He will NEVER make it as a top player. Not here or anywhere. He gives the ball away 50 percent of the time, has no pace, can't finish and is nothing more than a midget with a trick. He's like a poor version of Joe Cole and will never even be as good as him.
ReplyDeleteThe sooner we dump him the better.
The problem is because he is Spanish, played for Barca youth, and was signed by the ex-manager, a small group of dimwits think he has to be the next Messi.
I'll say it again. He's crap and won't make it in this league. He'll end up at a lower table La liga team as a squad player, nothing more.
:) so now you decided to delete my comments? Even though is fair, critical and unblinded? Jaimie, you are such a hypocrite
ReplyDeleteWell said my friend, although it will disappear soon because you mentioned something about a speech impediment. Because Liverpool fans after 2 disasters and decades of being reidiculed by the press and rival fans can't stomach a wittle bit of wighthearted "cwtical woyism", can they? :-D
ReplyDeleteHi Jamie
ReplyDeleteHow come you have amazon advertisements on your website?
Pacheco is crap. He will NEVER make it as a top player. Not here or anywhere. He gives the ball away 50 percent of the time, has no pace, can't finish and is nothing more than a midget with a trick. He's like a poor version of Joe Cole and will never even be as good as him.
ReplyDeleteThe sooner we dump him the better.
The problem is because he is Spanish, played for Barca youth, and was signed by the ex-manager, a small group of dimwits think he has to be the next Messi.
I'll say it again. He's crap and won't make it in this league. He'll end up at a lower table La liga team as a squad player, nothing more.
YES STEVE YOU ARE SO RIGHT JUST LIKE JAMIE
Pacheco will be a failure, just by the way he plays, keeps the ball, is intelligent and can score as well as assist....all the hallmarks of a failure????
and JAY SPEARING....will end up playing for England and will at the least captain Liverpool as well as England...can already tell what a class player he is, just look at the way he has contributed to Liverpools success this season and last year he was the reason that Leicester almost got promoted to the prem. Real Madrid and Barcelona have been after him since he grew above 4ft 5 inch and he is up for the Ballon d'Or award.
Well the proof will be in the pudding. The kind of people who have backed Pacheco are the kind of people that warned against replacing Rafa with a mid-table journeyman and have been proven right. The same people who suggested Crouch, Kuyt and Benayoun would come good and have been proved right.
ReplyDeleteIf your comment was deleted it was because you ignored the comment policy. Just because you come back and post this under a different name doesn't change anything.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think the comments that Hodgson made after the Northampton game were off the mark. He put in a load of fringe players, all together, the team failed to gel and they lost the game. Those players should have been able to beat Northampton but putting out such a young team all together was a risk that blew up in the manager's face. To then state that some of those players would find hard to gain his trust again, yet he said nothing of the sort when his star players flopped against Blackpool, that was misguided, in my opinion. But then, since then, he has played some of the players from that game, but certain others, Pacheco and Babel in particular, have barely had a look in and now there are reports that the manager wants to offload Pacheco, Jovanovic and Babel in January. Now, I would assume that these stories are true about Babel, and I still think the guy can do well in the Premier League, but if many of these sources are already throwing Pacheco and Jovanovic, who has been there all of three months, into the equation as well, it seems unlikely that all the stories are wide of the mark. To top it off, we are hearing about Simon Davies and the spectre of Carlton Cole still has not gone away. I'm not sure what Hodgson saw in 2 months to send two youngsters to Fulham and buy Konchesky. The way to develop young players is to bring 2 or 3 into the first team, not throw them on together against an experienced and motivated League 2 team who are going to play for their lives at Anfield. It's their cup final!! The European Under 19s was a good tournament for Pacheco and Mavinga, the left back was in the French team that won it. I'd assume that he has something about him to be in that team, yet we bought a 30 year old who is average at best and moved on two promising youngsters. I can understand the manager moving Babel on, even though I think he has been badly used by the club, but if Hodgson moves Pacheco on and the team continues to show the lack of creativity that has been a feature of this season so far, faith in the current manager will only fall even more. 4 months or not, I think that the team ought to be higher up the league than they are now, and the buck has to stop with the manager.
ReplyDeleteyeah why would you be balanced, top player at the u19 championships scoring wonder goals and making killer passes our best prospect in years and good aul uncle woy judges him on one game and he said to judge his own managment in ten!why go to the press to slag him off and say he didnt take his ONE chance how come the same dosent apply to poulsen and konchesky who get plenty of chances!!?? Because they play roys hoof game which dani dosent git intoo.I just hope NESV get him out before we are fulham mark 2 and you are absolutly clueless regarding the best thing for LFC.
ReplyDeletewhen did Chelsea move Scolari on?
ReplyDeleteyou are being unfair and taking a biased stance. Show me any fan that has said they expect Pacheco to be played every game from the start? What we are asking for, is a young player who has blown away the reserve players and is representing his world cup winning country at u19's level be given some pitch time to assist his development.
ReplyDeleteIf you want a more open view, compare ecclestone position on the bench ahead of Pacheco and the comparison to performances in the reserves.
It has nothing to do with the fact he came from barcelona reserves, its to do with Roy's inability to identify young players. He let a 21 year old international left back considered home grown, leave for free. he then replaced him with a 30 year old leftback and a highly rated 18 year old striker who was rumoured to be sold for 3.5mil the season before.
If Roy was saying he will get a chance, then say that. Why blame Pacheco for the defeat, when he, the manager played him in the wrong position in team that completely underperformed. Look at Gerrards and Torres and other top players games when they were in their teens. Most of them played lower than their normal standards when played in poorer teams or out of position.
If you can't see that Roy is bad for our club, there are serious problems in the fan base and I fear for the future of our club.
NO, I didn't ignore your little comment policy, why don't you re-read the original post again?
ReplyDeleteAlso I didn't post it under a different name, is always the same name, same email address, same comment on your standard of fairness and critical and unblinded comments blah blah blah
SO again I urged you don't comment on all Liverpool fans as if you know all of them...
JACK SIN
SINGAPORE, wake up at 4am in the morning to catch Liverpool whenever, whatever cup they are playing...
One thing you also forget to mention about your god Roy Hodgson is that he played Pacheco outside of his natural position in that Northampton game. I believe he started the game on the right side of midfield, not in the hole behind Babel or Ngog. Its a position that he was not entirely familiar with, one I've hated playing myself, running the length of the pitch continuously to attack and then assist in defense. And now he doesn't get another chance because of that? Had he played and the hole, and he was poor, then I'd maybe understand. But even so, the gaffer should have at least thrown him another bone since then. Say what you like Jamie, but this lad has been frozen out. Dani was not the only player on the pitch that day. Why haven't the other fringe players started the game.
ReplyDelete<span>I have been reading his comments since day one; you have not, therefore I am in a better position to see the progression of his views on this site.</span>
ReplyDeleteJamie that's fairly arrogant as I mentioned in my first post I have been reading this site for two years and read everybodys comments includings garys so I don't agree that you are in a better position to judge the progression of his views. Furthermore if his views have changed so what? why does he have to agree with you? so long as he debates in the right way surely his views are his own! That's my point his last post used your own quotes to question your argument rather than respond or not respond instead you accuse him of misrepresenting your views... which is subjective.
<span><span>I responded earlier in the thread to your other post - you are also guilt of doing the same thing - you've just adopted what he said without even checking what i actually wrote in the article. <span>
</span></span></span>
Which post did you respond to? i'm not the only person who writes on here as guest... and I have not just adopted his view without checking what you;ve written I actually agreed with OSI and Gary who both thought that the two articles recently written by you on Babel and Pacheco were contradictory. This is not mispresenting you this is a debate! mispresenting you would be if I said things about your argument that were blantantly untrue. Both Gary and OSI challenged your views that's not twisting words its a debate after all.
As I said earlier your treatment of Gary is disappointing he is entitled to make his comments (which I think IMO he made in the right way) you don't have to respond to him afterall you cant respond to everyone but to delete his comments his just cencorship not because he insulted you or blatantly told lies about you but because basically you don't want engage with him anymore!
You know there's been games where Pacheco could have come on to help unlock a stubborn defense. But then again, maybe not, seen that most of the time we have 10 of our players in our own half while the striker is left alone against 2-3 defenders and gets slated in the media for being off form. Maybe Pacheco just doesn't fit in with Woy's philosophy of hoofball.
ReplyDeleteWe also say these things because we passionately believe them. 99% of us fans can see that this guy is not right for us. Why can't you see it? And the media along with ex players turned pundits won't admit Woy is shite because they called for Rafa's head and sang the praises of uncle Woy.
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeleteNow it is you that is twisting what I am saying! Where in my comment above did I state that you had argued that Pacheco has had enough games to prove himself? that's just patently ridiculous given the number of games he had played What I argued is that your two recent articles appear contradictory:
<span>Babel hasn't had enough time to prove himself after three years at the club and in the other you are arguing that Pacheco has had plenty of games despite Hodgson's comments that effectively he intends to play him in the Europa league to see what he can do. </span>
If you had read my point properly you would see that I am arguing that Hodgson essentially views Pacheco as a player that can prove himself in the Europa league and not necessarily in the Premiership. In fact the only youth player to have played in the premiership this season is Kelly and that's only because Keryiagos got injured. So what i am arguing here is that Pacheco is probably not going to get many premiership games which is fair enough but given the lack of attacking quality in the squad surely this would be the time for him to get some games particularly last week against west ham when we were 3-0 up at half time.
<span><span>My meaning is obvious: Pacheco had a chance *tin the Northampton game* to show his worth but he didn't take it. Check the preceding quote from Hodgson: it was about the Northampton game. <span>
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Pacheco had a chance and so did Babel neither of them took their chances at least Pacheco had an excuse he is a young player what is Babel's yes he may not have gotten a chance under Benitez but Benitez left in June its now November. so in your opinnion has Babel not been given a chance to prove himself or has he simply not taken his chance under Hodgson? IMO Babel rather then coming out and blaming Benitez he should be working hard to prove to Hodgson that he should be getting a game.
Jamie, You should absolutely control comments from some users of this site.
ReplyDeleteJay S comes from Wirral, He's a local whith Liverpool's blood in his veins.
I command respect fro the guy.
He's just been involved in the discussion with sarcasm in a series of stupid comments.
I command respect for the Wirral's guy.
He's a local and He's still represents Liverpool every time He plays with the red shirt.
Ecclestone is an absolutely brilliant guy: He has pace, good characters, good technique as He brilliantly showed his skills against Naples at Anfield.
ReplyDeleteEveryone can easily note the Ecclestone's skills.
<span>Is there a reason why both Ferguson & Allardice publicy did try to grab Ecclestone to Liverpool or not???????????? </span>
There's no comparison between Nathan & Dani: They are very skilful player but they are sort of different player.
Nathan is a striker or a pure winger as Dani is a creative offensive midfield like, for example, Benayoun or Joe Cole.
The only difference is that maybe nathan is ready in physycal terms as Dani required more time & work.
Again: Why some fans still try to get a comparison between Dani & other reserves team mates?
Which are the reasons of these stupid & useless comparison??
Why some Fans are trying to bring discredit to other good Liverpool's guys?
Nathan & Martin Kelly are good guys, and putting them in a dark light only to say that Hodgson has not a good eye for youngsters it's a very very stupid action openly against LFC's best interests because both Nathan & Martin are very very valid prospects.
The problem with Dani is different, maybe the guy needs to work in order to evolve <span>his tactical awareness & physycal strenght</span>, but the guy will have more chances in the future it's sure.
Stop with these idiots comments that get stupid & useless comparison between Liverpool's reserves guy.
Growler, You're talking like You were the World's Emperor Who knows everything and He's able to predict anything after just 3.5 months in a season.
ReplyDeleteI only say that the manager deserves a REAL CHANCE.
AND STOP.
I Cant belive people are saying Pacheco is crap!!! He is 19, and if you have ever watched his games over a sustained period he outshines his counterparts. Other clubs like Man Utd and Arsenal slowly bring their players through, look at theo walcott at Arsenal it is his 5th season, still only 21 and plays an average of 33 games a season in all competitions with most of them starting on the bench. Who would argue he is not a godd player??? When he was 19 he only started 11 games in the league and was on the bench for another 14. I agreee totally that it is not Roy Hodgsons fault as any manger would slowly bring him in, Wenger has done it for years with many players at Arsenal and Walcott is my example. There is a long season ahead of us and senior players will be rotated, may get injured etc so he will get his chance and I hope he plays well. The problem sometimes is we want our young players to be successful so much that when they get their 15 mins at the end of the game we are expecting fire balls out their arses and 40 yard screamers. The fact that he is only 19 and is a great prospect that will probaly not show his true attributes for another 3 years is too long to wait for some people. I cant believe that people are saying he is shit and he has'nt even started his footballing career yet. At youth level and reserves he has produced some brilliant performances, in a couple of years he has the prospect of being an excellent first team player, lets hope it is for liverpool and not for another club.
ReplyDeleteAround middle of Feb from what I recall.
ReplyDeleteOne of my friends at school endured 4 years of supposed lighthearted banter about his speech impediment...it destroyed his self confidence. I'm not saying that applies to Roy, however without wanting to sound excessively PC, I think there should be zero tolerance of jokes made at the expense of other peoples conditions.
ReplyDeleteGood points..I think comparisons made between players, especially at a young age are not really helpfull. Roy has stated that he hopes Pacheco will have chances in the upcoming EL games, something which I look forward to seeing.
ReplyDelete<span>
ReplyDeleteFirstly. You have never read anything from me on this site about 'matchgoing' fans. I have never mentioned it before, so PROVE otherwise. I get to some games, not all as I don't live locally therefore am hardly in a position to denigrate other fans, unlike you who feels they can. If you believe that a recent convert to the club has the same passion, commitment and feeling for it as a 40 year home and away veteran, that is your opinion. You are entitled to it.
You are such a hypocrite, can you not see it? Seriously? Criticism is ok as long as 'fair, reasonable and necessary'. What was fair, reasonable or necessary about the critical articles on players who had yet to play for the club? Seriously, explain. You make the rules up as you go along and can't even keep to them yourself. If that wasn't bad enough you then sanctimoniously chastise everyone else based on criteria you can't meet yourself.
I know you don't care (well you pretend to not care but are surprisingly precious when people critique your work) but you will never be taken seriously outside of your own little bubble whilst you continue to defend the indefensible and delete/edit comments that highlight you are wrong.
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Which Napoli game did Shelvey play poorly in? I think he did well in both the home and away games. He's 18 and up against the first choice team of the team currently in 3rd in Italy......personally i think he did himself justice.
ReplyDeleteBecause I want to. Why? What's it to you?
ReplyDeleteIs the manager giving some of his players the same chance, though? He seems keen to talk up Poulsen, yet has decided that Jovanovic is not good enough already. He was quick to criticise Johnson, yet when the guy had his best game of the season, he could not resist praising Konchesky's performance as well, even though the guy did not play anywhere near the level that Johnson had displayed. Giving chances ought to work all ways and I don't see the manager doing anything other than praising his favourites and scapegoating everyone else. For better or worse, he is the Liverpool manager and I would think that means keeping as open mind as possible and giving everyone a chance to impress. Not having a group of favoured players, some of whom are not performing either, and using any attempt to big them up in an attempt to show that your signings have not been, on the whole, poor. How could Jovanovic not be worth more time and yet he is telling the world that Poulsen will come good? Both internationals, both new to the EPL, both only at the club for a short time. Yet one looks to be on the way out and the other, who has been worse, is getting encouragement from the manager. Which is good, but encouragement should be available to all his underpeforming players, not just the ones he signed. And his attempt to big up Gerrard further by stating how determined the guy is in approaching his rest period due to his injury, well that just looks like more grovelling to the in crowd. Torres is playing better now, but his performances were abject earlier on, no hint of criticism there. Yet Pacheco appears to have been singled out for the Northampton loss. Why? Unless the guy has an ego the size of a Nicklas Bendtner or something, was that really necessary?
ReplyDeleteBraveheart alert! Were you rying when you wrote that? :-D
ReplyDeleteI wonder if someone either had a word with Hodgson or he has seen the Pacheco quotes and decided to put the record straight because, today, he appears to have come out and said that he wants to work with the whole squad until the end of the season and that Pacheco has a future at the club and he hopes to give him some game time. Either way, this appears to be a U turn after the Northampton game and I really find it hard to believe that players like Babel or Jovanovic are going to get much of a chance. He's already said that certain players will get games to prove themselves but they have not been seen since. I'm not sure that this comment will change the desire of players to leave in January if they are not getting many chances. But I do wonder if Comolli's first scouting brief is to have a look at the entire squad. Hodgson's statement, on the day that a new chairman has been appointed, suggests that he is not going to get too much money, maybe one or two first teamers, and, I, for one, think that is the right approach. This is not the time for a January clear out with all the changes that have taken place and all the uncertainty around a number of players. If people want to leave, they should get their wish and then the club can look at who they need to bring in then.
ReplyDeleteWELL SAID KB
ReplyDeleteJamie it is not a matter of where Pacheco came from academy wise i do not care if he came from backyard football the kid has performed well in the reserves.
ReplyDeleteAdding to that performances of players like Maxi Cole Babel have not been greatly inspiring though Ngog has been okay.
My thoughts are why not gamble on a youngster when the others are not pulling their weight it is not like we are asking him to replace Torres Gerard or Reina!
But i will agree that a kid should not ask to leave because he is not getting his own way.
I find footballers are often like spoilt children, and it is time for him to commit to the club and be the best player he can be, and well the sky is the limit.
At the least i would be offering him a new contract in January and agree to loan him out to a Spanish club like Malaga if he shines, bring him back for next season.
You seem to be assuming that the player has no ambition of his own, though, and just wants to be on hand whenever Roy wants to bring him on for 10 minutes once every 5 games. If he wants to play, why should he commit to the club? If he feels that he needs game time to reach his potential, why would he want to sit on the bench and stagnate? Is that being a spoilt child? When you talk about sending him on loan and bringing him back if he does well, we are not talking about a slave, if he does well maybe he won't want to come back? As we are seeing with Aquilani. It's a two way agreement, the club and the player have to be happy. And unhappy players do not tend to sign new contracts. Whatever the reason is that the guy does not get as much game time as he would like, rightly or wrongly, if he remains unsatisfied he will go. And the manager can offer him a new contract as many times as he likes. Eventually, if the manager rates him enough, he will play him. if he doesn't play him enough then he does not rate him enough to offer him a new contract. It's up to the manager to convince fringe players that they have a promising future, we'll soon see whether Hodgson is up to that job.
ReplyDeleteNo where did i say Pacheco has no ambition but he does need game time to improve in a stronger comp than the reserves how else is he going to get that experience without being let go unless he is loaned.
ReplyDeleteGab you assume way too much and assumption is the mother of all f### ups no one is saying half of what you say but he must be patient and wait his chance and must be offered another contract.
Also rating a player and rating the players in front of you in your preferred positions are also two different things all of whom are internationals.
Ok, my assumption. Your comment, we should send him on loan, so he gets game time, and then, if he does well, we should bring him back, making sure he signs a long contract before he goes on loan. Is that a fair summary of what you said? My assumption is that a player with ambition wants to play. A player who gets game time and does well might want to stay where he is, rather than return to a club where the manager does not have the faith in him to put him in the team, but this loan team's manager does have the faith to put him on. Is that an unfair assumption? Sure, we support Liverpool, but this idea that we pack players off on loan and they automatically want to come back to warm the bench is delusional. Why does he have to be patient to wait for his chance if someone else wants to give him a game, because you want decent back up on the bench? You hear players talking all the time about managers having faith in them and how that matters to them. So, unless there is a secret card club at Anfield, the only way managers can show faith in players is to play them. If another manager want to play you, then some players will, understandably, want to go and play for them. Patience is a virtue, but if the lad thinks he is good enough, how patient should he be while watching N'gog and some others offering very little goal threat at all?
ReplyDeleteare you for real ????? why not go the whole hog and openly support your 1st love . whome ever that may be , united probebly , so pack up ya anti scouse crap , and feck off back to cobbleploddin , pigeoneatin land and laeve us TRUE REDS to offer real and true SUPPORT to our team, YNWA now, then and future .not transiant till the next 1 comes along. ANAGRAM ANY1 ???
ReplyDeletePacheco is really starting to show some promise, looks to be a good prospect in my opinion!
ReplyDeletePaul
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