13 Nov 2009

Why the ridiculous WENGER/BENITEZ "time to build a team" comparison is invalid

Many Liverpool fans are distraught at the club’s current predicament/failure to win any trophies for the last three years. After 1 win in 9 games, questions are rightly being asked about Rafa Benitez’s future. However, The ‘Rafa can do no wrong’ brigade come up with endless excuses/justifications for giving the manager more time, the most common of which is the ridiculous comparison between Benitez and Arsene Wenger.

When discussing how long Benitez should be given by the club to build a successful, Premiership winning team, there will always be someone who comes up with the following argument:

‘How come it’s okay for Arsene Wenger to be given 5 years to build a team at Arsenal but it’s not okay for Benitez to be given the same leeway’?

Indeed, on this site today, someone posted the following comment:

"How come Wenger gets 5 years of building a squad without question? During which time they only qualified for Champions League at the last minute on occasion. Liverpool are at the same place Arsenal were a couple of years ago, but I believe that we have a better team than they did in their time of "crisis". Look at them now".

This argument really grates on me because the answer is so self-evident:

Arsenal has won THREE PREMIERSHIP TITLES under Wenger (two of which came in his first 5 seasons at the club). Arsenal has also finished 2nd on 5 occasions, which is proof that they have what it takes to win the title. In short, Wenger has earned the right to be given time to build a team; he has PROVED that he has what it takes to win the title.

Has Benitez proved this?

As a result of Arsenal's success, the club's fans/Board know that Wenger has the ability to create a Premiership winning team, therefore they have the confidence to give him extra time because the likelihood is Arsenal WILL win the title again at some point.

Additionally, Arsenal have achieved their titles and runner-up positions playing the most exciting, entertaining football in the league (if not the world), with an emphasis on skill, technique and fluid attacking play, something that Arsenal’s fans appreciate and enjoy, even when the league is not won.

Benitez has NOT earned the right to be given endless amounts of time; he has not PROVED that he has what it takes to bring Liverpool the league title. Furthermore, Liverpool’s often turgid style of play/cautious approach at times under Benitez has not been endearing to the fans. Thus, the comparison with Wenger is completely invalid.

If Benitez had won the league twice (or even once) in his first 5 seasons then no one would be calling for his head now because he would have proven already that he has what it takes to bring Liverpool to the title.

We are into Benitez’s sixth season at Anfield, and despite the three month run of excellence at the tail-end of last season (a pyrrhic victory if ever there was one), the club has not really looked capable of winning the league at any stage of his reign.

That is the difference, and that is why the constant comparison to Wenger is completely and utterly invalid.

NB. Just to reiterate once again: I am not in favour of Benitez being sacked, and I never have been. I believe he should be given till the end of this season, no matter how bad it gets. If Liverpool fail to qualify for the CL and/or performances continue to be poor throughout the season and Liverpool just scrape into 4th place, I think Benitez should walk away of his own volition for the good of the club.

Jaimie Kanwar


----

Join the site's new Facebook page!


Become a fan on Facebook!



140 comments:

  1. So what has wenger won since Rafa has been at Liverpool?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Funny how since Rafa arrived in the premiership, WENGER as won the league since!, maybe it because he also struggled with cash from their owners due to the new stadium!!

    ReplyDelete
  3. It also PROVES wenger inherited an infinitely better team and has made it worse by making a team that can't defend, and even the worst of teams know they can score against.

    ReplyDelete
  4. How Did Wenger inherit an 'infinitely better team'.  Please explain with examples how this was the case.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Funny how Wenger hasn't won the league since Rafa's arrival? wenger is have the same problem, it called MONEY! Unless the G&H give Rafa funding EACH and EVERY season. Rafa & Wenger aren't likely to ever win the league again.

    ReplyDelete
  6. You just don't get it do you?

    It's not about what he's won since Benitez arrived; Wenger has earned the right to be given time die to three league titles and 5 2nd place finishes.

    ReplyDelete
  7. you know nothing about football mate, you should support chelski or united !! it's you who should walk away from liverpool for ever, ignorant !!!

    ReplyDelete
  8. The point you miss is that Wenger has had more control over the youth set up at Arsenal, Liverpool have not had many players step up to PL level over the past few years, at Liverpool or elsewhere. The youth set up has been revamped -> more time. Nothing to do with being a Rafa apologist, just a bit of unbiased common sense. The teams that have performed the best over the last few years are those that have the longest serving managers (in order : Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton, Liverpool) with the obvious exception of Chelsea, who have burned a lot of cash.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Gee, how can I go on after such cutting criticism?

    Your response is typical of those who have nothing interesting to say, and is the common tactic of an 'Ad Hominem' argument, i.e. argument against the person instead of the points being raised. Bravo :)

    ReplyDelete
  10. You dont just get it do you.
    I am schoked to read this from a fellow red, really I am.
    The Wenger Benitez comparison is valid, if Wenger was so good as you say, and was so successful before Rafa came, surely that gave him a distinct adcantage seeing as Liverpool was in such a state when Rafa took over.
    Fact remains, Rafa has won more and has done better in the league since he arrived than Wenger has.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Let's just get Guus Hiddink in the summer and see if he can do better than Rafa. I don't think many would mind Hiddink in charge. He seems to be much closer to his players than Rafa and his CV and personality is worthy of Anfield. Rafa has had 6 years, time for a new man in June.

    ReplyDelete
  12. There was no Abramovich when Wenger won his 2 in 5, he won it with senior players and had the 2nd most expensive team in the league. it is not fair to compare as the league has changed. Wenger had 1 title rival, Rafa has three established title rivals by the time he has arrived. In football nobody 'earns' the right to time, he's still there because the board thinks he can do it in the future. Wenger has not proved he can do it in the 'Sugger Dady' era

    ReplyDelete
  13. Shocked?  Perhaps you should lie down and recover.

    You are stiill missing the point: The argument is not about how successful Benitez/Wenger have been over the last 5 years - it is about WHY Wenger is given more time byt the fans and the board to build a winning team. I wish you and others would stop trying to twist the issue into something it isn't in an effort to avoid the truth.

    The reason Wenger is given more time is becase he has a track record of success in the league.  benitez does not have this, therefore people do not have as much confidence in him to win the title.

    ReplyDelete
  14. There's always an excuse, isn't there?!  Just because Chelsea had more money before Arsenal won two of their titles does not devalue the achievement.  Man U have won 3 titles since Chelsea had all their money.  What excuse are you going to come up with for that one?!

    And if Chelsea did have money when Arsenal won their first two titles, you would come up with some other excuse. Why can't you just accept that Benitez has not been good enough in the league (which is true).

    ReplyDelete
  15. I really don't get this site. Every now and then I stumble across an article from here on newsnow and decide to give it a chance. But when I get here every arcticles just unbelievably negative. I come to the conclusion that despite being a fan of Liverpool, you're just one of those guys who no matter what will always find something to moan at. Whether we as a club are successful or a complete failure your unbelievable ability to pick holes in everything absolutely bugger all impact on the people who actually make any decisions of any importance at the club. We get the message you don't like Rafa as a manager. You've made your point now accept that like it or lump it he's still the manager and will be until the board decide, whether hundreds of sites like this love him or not.

    How's about we just support the club, players and manager, after all as 'Fans' that pretty much is our function

    ReplyDelete
  16. Would you like to compare Wengers record over the last 5 years to Rafa's? Or if your on about length of time without winning the league!! how about comparing the length of time to Fergie!!! or will that just fly back in your face! =-X

    I like your last statement about how long you want Rafa to stay! well most fans have already written off this season, 4th place would be a fair result when you consider the injury problems Rafa as had, Me i think most fans are VERY HAPPY WITH RAFA.... More than you know! are willing to give his one more season no matter what YOU are the rest of the Negative press think. 8-)

    Question, who are the really owners of this website!

    ReplyDelete
  17. A massive problem for me is the stubborn attitude Benitez constantly shows, typified by the way the team plays. Last season when we were playing well and beating teams, we'd go out and destroy the opposition in the first 20 mins, playing attacking football and playing at least as well as Arsenal. The same was true the season before. However, Rafa then reverts to type, goes back into his traditional style of mediocrity, grinding out performances and boring the opposition to death.
    The point I'm making is that if he's as good as everyone thinks, surely a man of intelligence and credibility would realise that we actually play our best football and get our best results when the shackles are off, however he refuses to see this. It typifies his attitude towards everything. And like I've said before, the clowns who say 'they've got a 15 year plan' obviously haven't thought about this...what if the plan is utter rubbish? What if we get relegated (extreme I know) because Benitez has a 15 year plan which it turns out is nonsense? I think he should leave and leave now, because I don't believe that Benitez's so-called plan will turn out to be what we want (because 6 years into it, we're no closer to winning the league).

    ReplyDelete
  18. Maybe you forgot that Liverpool FC is now run to make a profit and not to win trophies. I don't know if you think that is important or not but I think that it's that.

    Our turnover isn't big enough and our owners won't risk their own money. We can't compete in the transfer market against clubs like City, United, Chelsea and Tottenham. We can't compete in wages with clubs like City, United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham.

    We are fith in the economic reality and if you consider that then you will also come to the conclusion that Rafa overachieved so far.

    Yes, we are Liverpool FC but the clubs won't sell the players to us on the cheap because we are Liverpool FC. It won't give us any bonus points. Our history filled with trophies counts for nothing.

    Wenger started off with a squad that was in a position to win the league if the only ralistic opponent at that time, United, had a below par season. Yes, he had one club that was better than them. Rafa now have four and he had that when he started.

    Remove City's money, Chelsea's money and Arsenal's new stadium and you would get a valid comparision to the situation when Wenger took charge of Arsenal. One team that was better than them.

    I think that Rafa would win the league a few times in that situation.

    Suddenly when Wenger is forced to sell to buy, just like Rafa, then wins nothing. Coincidence? No way. You need big money to win the PL. Always been the case and always will be the case. Wenger spent big, what was big at that time, on a few players. Henry £10m was very big money back then and £8m for Bergkamp. He could build on an already good squad and make it stronger. Rafa started off with a club in total chaos and could only spent around £16m a season to close the massive gap. Our opponents hasn't exactly stopped spending since then. They have added quality players to already excellent squads. Rafa have added quantity and quality players to a not good enough in a long way squad.

    look at the whole picture next time, please. My post show that your post is invalid and that the ones shouting that we should give Rafa time is spot on. This is his first set back. Should we sack the manager as soon as we go through a bad period? No. Then we would be forced to sack the next manager after a year or two and then the next one and so on because he will also go through very difficult periods.

    We aren't the best or second best club anymore, we are the fifth best club now based on the real World and not the history books.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Please Jaimie stop with this NB at the end of every article, its pointless.

    You make your point constantly with pointless articles everyday being flooded through the news now Liverpool section.

    I think a lot people who have come your web site get the jist of what your opinions and fellow writers are. Whatever kind of supporter you are be it a Rafa supporter or anti-supporter people have various tools to either beat him with or praise him.

    The man deserves respects for his achievements much like Wenger does. Different managers in their own way, the one thing people never look at wioth a fine tooth comb is the teams they inherited and how the imprinted their own philosophy on the club. The likes of Wenger should be applauded for changing the way the English game has changed and Benitez has added to this.

    Two world class managers in my opinion. One is 4 time League Championship winning manager with Monaco and Arsenal as Wenger and a 2 time League Championship and European Cup winning manager as Benitez are.

    ReplyDelete
  20. if you don't like this site, don't visit.  It's simple really.  Why waste your time posting on a site you don't like.  If you can't hack fair criticism then go to RAWK and join the 'Rafa is God' love-in.

    ReplyDelete
  21. You are very happy with Rafa because you are happy to accept incompetence and underachievement in the league.  This is not Rafa Benitez FC.  It is Liverpool FC, and your allegiance should be to the club, not to the individual.

    ReplyDelete
  22. No, Alan, it is necessary because if I don't include that then I get countless people accusing me of wanting Rafa sacked.  People have very short memories, which is why I have to keep reminding people that I do not want Rafa out and never have done.  It basically saves me having to delete about 50 posts slagging me off for wanting Rafa out, which I don't.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Ok, Rafa hasn't won the "League" in his first 5 years, but he has taken us to 2 Champions league finals (winning 1 and being the better team in the other), won the F.A Cup and Carling Cup (once and losing in another final). While these were not league titles like Wenger, we have improved immensely in the 5 years Rafa has been in charge, culminating in last seasons 2nd place. The comparisons between the 2 managers ARE valid as far as winning trophies goes. The only difference is that word - LEAGUE. I'm convinced Rafa will bring that too given some patience and most importantly MONEY. Money which Wenger had plenty of in his first 5 years and something which Rafa has NOT had plenty of.

    ReplyDelete
  24. While Benitez does not have a "record of success" in the league, he does have a record of success in the Champions League, something which is worth more money than winning the EPL, and something which Wenger does not have.  
    Why has Liverpool failed to win a league title in almost 20 years?  There are numerous reasons, but lately it is partly due to the fact that clubs like Chelsea, ManU, 'Spurs and even ManCity are easily able to outspend us.  90% of the teams which win league titles are the highest spenders in the land.  We are no where near having the largest wage bill (last I checked we were fifth).  Add to that the fact that Rafa is going up against some of the best managers in English football history, and it's not an easy thing to catch up.  What seems really sad is the fact that you drone on and on about the negatives but never mention the positives or the difficulties Rafa is facing (catching up to big spending clubs, the board room crap, etc...).  A bit of balance would strengthen your arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Wenger walked into arsenal with the following players at his disposal...seaman, dixon, winterburn,adams,bould,keown,bergkamp,parlour,Ian wright etc etc.....r
    rafa walks into liverpool & has..Smicer,biscan,diouf,cheyrou,cisse,mellor,pongolle,le tallec etc etc.
    rafa had to start from scratch. during the process of the 5 yrs mentioned, rafa has bought some puddings, but he's also responsible for bringing the likes of reina, mascherano,alonso,torres,agger, Johnson etc etc to our club...the transition from building one team to another is evident in wengers fine work at the emirates. the fans at arsenal arent calling for or questioning wengers ethics, something i think some `so called' liverpool fans need to do when judging rafa.

    ReplyDelete
  26. What is it with Liverpool fans in denial.  I'll say this again:


    The article is not about who has been more sucessful over the last 5 years.  It is about WHY Wenger is given more time than Benitex to build a winning team. 

    Wenger has won three titles and finished 2nd 5 times.  That is why he is given more time and leeway.  Benitez has won 0 titles and only come close once.

    So stop going on about who won what in the last 5 years and/or how long it took Ferguson to win the leagiue.  These things have nothing to do with the point being discussed.

    ReplyDelete
  27. You say Rafa under achieving in the league, hes moved up the league getting greating points each season... how is that under achieving?? the reason Rafa asn't won the league is because Rafa as been under funded for the couple of years!

    I do believe Rafa will win the league when hes funded correctly, I've seen season on season improvements, i not talking blind faith, maybe if the owner stopped funding you Rafa will more money eh? 

    ReplyDelete
  28. Yes, we've won a couple of cups but winning a CL/FA Cup and winning the league are ttwo completely different things. 

    So we want to be a cup team or do we want to win the league?  Do we want United to pull 2, 3 or 4 titles ahead of us so forevermore they can boast about winning the title more times than us?!

    The point is, Wenger is given more time because he ahs proved he can win the lague.  Benitez hasn't, and this season is making last season look like the flash in the pan it really was.

    Arsenal fans will be more patient with Wenger because, as well as winning titles, they play fantastic football.

    Liverpool on the whole, do not, so even when we're in a slump, we can't point to enjoyable football as mitigation.

    ReplyDelete
  29. You say Rafa under achieving in the league, hes moved up the league getting greating points each season for the last 3 years... how is that under achieving?? the reason Rafa asn't won the league is because Rafa as been under funded for the 2 years!
     
    I do believe Rafa will win the league when hes funded correctly, I've seen season on season improvements, i'm not talking blind faith.

    Maybe if the owner stopped funding you! Rafa will have more money eh?

    ReplyDelete
  30. a typical Benitez apologist view of history.  I love how you only mention the crap players on the books at Anfield when Benitez arrived!

    When he came to Liverpool, the squad also had: Gerrard, Carragher, Hyypia, Hamann, Kewell (who had a great first season before Benitez took over), Riise Finnan, Dudek, Henchoz, Owen etc.

    12 of the 14 players used in the CL final against Milan were already at the club when Benitez arrived.  That tells it's own story.

    Furthermore, Smicer, biscan,diouf,cheyrou,cisse,mellor,pongolle,le tallec may have been at the club, but we've have Degen, Voronin, Babel, Kromkamp, Josemi, Zenden,  etc, so what's the difference.


    And it's worth noting that without Smicer, Mellor and Pongolle, Liverpool would not have won the CL in 2005.

    ReplyDelete
  31. My point was that it's pointless comparing the first 5 years in charge when football has changed so much. Im not knocking Wenger.

    Man United won three leagues in the Abramovich era because they have spent alot of money and have a squad that costs only 10m less that chelsea. ours is about 60m less than Chelseas. why is it that nobody expects Everton to finish above us because they spend less yet we are expected to beat teams that have more expensive squads? we have the 5th most expensive squad in the league and the fifth biggest wage bill! Yet finished 2nd last year

    ReplyDelete
  32. get your head out of the sand already!  This blind faith in Benitez is dragging the club down.  under-funded?!  Benitez has spent 260m in 5 years!!  How the devil is tha under-funded?

    The denial of some Liverpool fans is amazing.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I don't think liverpool can outspend the Russians! FACT!

    Therefore you're stuck with Lafa Beneathus

    ReplyDelete
  34. So-called fans? Get a grip, just because we're not blind doesn't mean we're not fans. Okay Wenger had a 'good' squad, and yes Benitez didn't. Yes he's bought the players you mention (all sanctioned and funded by Hicks and Gillett with the exception of Alonso) but look at our squad now. 6 years in, and the 'squad' surely is not much better. The starting 11 is, but the squad isn't. Voronin, Babel, Riera, Kyrgiakos, and even Skrtel. The youth policy he's adopted seems to have so far brought nothing through except Insua who while good is hardly a world beater.
    His squad building, his tactical decision making, his mis-management of key players (Alonso, Crouch, Keane to name a few examples), his stubborness are all creating a problem at the club which I feel can't be allowed to carry on.
    And I seem to remember Arsenal fans calling for Wenger to be sacked as late as February this year, so don't make them the yard-stick mate!

    ReplyDelete
  35. Whats wrong! please explain how Rafa under achieving in the league, hes moved up the league getting greating points each season for the last 3 years... how is that under achieving?? Still wait for your reply!
    i only see year on year improvement!

    Trust me my head isn't in the sand after watch over 40 year of football.

    Funny how your scottish with a USA site which won't allow people see who it registered too! not a cheaping site either!! =-X

    ReplyDelete
  36. 260m in 5 years? you dont understand football economics

    ReplyDelete
  37. Since Rafa arrived who has done better? Rafa or Wenger?
    London Press and nice football are enough whilst Rafa deals with a club in turmoil who also happen to be a European giant and the most decorated British club.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Jaimie said:

    "Wenger has won three titles"

    He then said:

    "So stop going on about who won what in the last 5 years"

    I'm confused.  It's alright for you to talk about what Wenger has won, but we can't compare it to what Benitez has won?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Rafa DOES deserve more time even if we struggle this season.  That is my belief anyway.  I say this because I see so many positives through the problems we're having in terms of results. 

    Benitez has tried to adopt a more attacking approach this season and we have struggled to find the balance.  Don't you think that when we do then we can be something special?  Look at the games v Real and Man U last season.  That's what we're striving for yet failing to get right. 

    I don't believe a change would help as we'd have to start again. 

    And doesn't Benitez deserve more of YOUR support Jamie?  For Instanbul, Cardiff, Athens (nearly), being a key figure in ensuring Gerrard is still at the club.  For four years of real progress and some amazing nights along the way YOU'RE happy to forego it all on the back of one bad season.

    I don't agree that's the Liverpool way mate.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Actually, he does have a point.  Have you ever wondered why so few people on here agree with you?  It's because your views are wrong and out of touch with Liverpool fans.  If you told me you really supported Everton, I would not be surprised.

    ReplyDelete
  41. You say Wenger's earnt the right after 3 league titles and 5 second place finishes.  That's in 13 years as Arsenal Manager...anyway 5+3 = 8, Rafa hasn't even had 6 seasons yet.

    I agree he shouldn't be let go just yet and that no comparison can be made but he has prooved himself and surely earnt the right to build a team after Winning the CL in his first season, F.A. Cup in his second, Community Sheild and another CL final in his 3rd, Top 4 finishes in all but his first season, Minimum Quater Final of CL each year.  I say he's allowed one dismal year to get himself back on track (so long as we're still in european football).

    ReplyDelete
  42. How has football changed so much in the last 5 years?  This is just another excuse.  It's not like we're comparing today\'s football with the 70s!

    Football is the same - the only thing that has changed is Chelsea having moire money.  Anyway, the whole point is moot because Liverpool finished above Chelsea last season.  This argument has not merit, and in my view, it is the latest in a long line of excuses to justify Benitez's failure in the league.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Cracking response. Well done.

    If you could point to where in my comment exactly I stated 'Rafa is God'? For what it's worth I don't see Rafa as untouchable nor do i think he's 'incompetent' as you put it, I just accept that I cant change his position whether I want to or not, so why not support the club (not rafa, the club) whoever's in charge.

    And for the record your criticism isn't 'fair' anyway. it's just your opinion based on your slant of results, same as anyone who voices an opinion opposing yours so why attack these people that differ from you?

    And as for your comment about not reading the site anymore if i don't like it, to be fair you're right, all i can say is it's just been curiosity... I just find it odd that someone who set up a site and make all the effort you obviously do to write your arcticles with the only aim being to slag off / criticise someone at a club you I presume, support. Strange

    ReplyDelete
  44. Guess you need to change the title of your piece to something like "Why the ridiculous Wenger/Benitez "time to build a team to win the premier league from scratch" comparison is invalid".

    I'm not disagreeing completely with you, it's just expecting Liverpool to go from the team Benitez inherited, to Premiership champions in 5 years is ridiculous.

    Especially if you take into account the inflated prices of players since a certain russian billionaire ploughed his money into his team. And now we have Man City, who have even more money. Never mind Man Utd being the richest club in the world and now have 80 million to play with.

    We don't have and never have had that sort of money to throw around. So give Rafa a bit of credit and let's see how the next 5 years go. I'm convinced getting rid of Rafa would just set us back not 5 but 10 years.

    ReplyDelete
  45. How hard is this to understand?

    1. The question here is: why does Wenger get more time to build a winning team?  Whyare the fasn board more patient with him?

    Answer: because has won three titles.

    Those wins prove he has what it takes to win the title.

    Benitez has not win a title or even come close (Bar last season).  The last 5 years are irrlevent to the question of WHY Wenger is given more time.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Jamie,
    we are going by the last 5 seasons, since Rafa arrived.
    Is it ok for Wengers team to go to shit and not win anything because he won some PL titles in the distant past?
    the FACT remains, and it is a very valid fact, whether you like to admit to it or not, in the past 5 seasons Rafa has had more success.
    butter it up anyway you want about wenger, if he has such a record in the PL then his standards much have significantly dropped, and as a PL winning manager this should not really be acceptable to be overtaken by a manager that has no experience in the Premier League! and that is a FACT
    Expectations seem to be higher now at Liverpool than at Arsenal, which certainly was not the case when Rafa arrived, and that is an achievment in itself.

    The football scene has also changed significantly over the past few years, the league has become harder to win with the influx of money going into certain clubs. when Wenger was winning the league, it was a far easier league to win that it is now. that is also a fact, tactics and players have come on some way with the introduction of some top coaches, I also believe Rafa is in part respeonsible for some of this change of style, especially in Europe. Immediately he showed the rest of the Premier League that they had to embrace the English way in order to succeed in Europe rather than shy away from it trying to play a European way that was not suited to English clubs trying to win the competition.

    It really does sadden me to see how some people can be so ignorant to all what Rafa is trying to achieve and the very hard working environment has has had to work in.

    I for one, irrespective of where we finish in the league this season, within reason, want to see Rafa here next season as I firmly believe he is the man to lead us forward and he should be given that time. One thing is for sure, he is no Gerrard Houllier.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Why do you bother with these posts if you believe what you say in your little NB sections at the end of each post?

    Rightly or wrongly you say Rafa should stay til the end of the season so why bother slagging him off when we're only half way there?

    Pointless

    ReplyDelete
  48. I stand by my response.  I'm sick of having to justifyu myself to people who continuall come up with predictable crap like ' are you really a fan etc'.

    I don't do write for popularity - if people don't like this site or can't hack criticism of the club then just don't visit.  I won't lose any sleep over it.  If readership of this site plummeted to 0 it wouldn't make any difference to me - I would still write.  I'm not in it for approval/validation.

    My criticism is perfectly fair - all the things I highlight are fair criticisms.  They are only unfair in the minds of people who can't hack their favourites coming under the microscope.

    You say I 'slag off he club'. What rubbish.  Give me an example of slagging off the club.

    The problem is yours, not mine.  You and other fans like you have a narrow, insular view of what being a fan constitutes.  For you, blind faith is essential and the only criticism allowed has to be very miled and punctutated with praise and adulation.

    Anyone who doesn't conform to that is apparently not a fan.

    Well, in my view, being a fan is about criticism and accountability, as well as praise and adulation.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Please explain this 260m? last count was a little over 220m? also Rafa as received 160m in sales!! spending  only 80m in the FIRST three years! not spending in the last two years! due to the owners not giving funding. care to explain!

    Now lets allow the truth to cover your judgement eh?

    ReplyDelete
  50. A typical apologist would tell you Rafa signed Nunez, Garcia, Alonso, Josemi, Pellegrino, Carson and Morientes in his first full season in charge. While Morientes and Pellegrino were cup tied, Nunez, Josemi and Carson were on the bench. That in itself will tell you its own story what squad he inherited when he had to choose an unproven young goalkeeper and second rate full back and injury prone winger.  So out of the squad 5 of Benitez signings were in that squad which late he made a profit overall on the selling of those 3 who were on the bench that night.

    But it is worth noting Benitez did get the best out of some of the players that season in the CL run, the three you mentioned also Biscan who was immense against Leverkusen twice, Chelsea and Deportivo during that campaign.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Such a  blinkered view.  How am I slagging him off?!  This is the problem with the 'Rafa is God' brigade.  Any criticism of his is seen as slagging him off.  I've made a vladi point about why Wenger is given more time than Benitez to build a team.  What happens? Rafa apologisists take offence and start focusing on things that have nothing to do with the article, i.e. trying to turn it into a discussion about who has been the more successful manager over the last 5 years.

    It really is amusing to watch.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Got to love your positive noises about the calibre of players in the squad when Rafa took over.

    Although I have no interest in you or your opinions, I would assume that you were not quite so positive about those same players when Houllier was still in charge.

    Its called revisionism, my son, and does little for your credibilty.

    Two other points - the reason people keep trying to "change" the debate from your original proposition is that noone is interested in your original point. Wenger afforded more leeway? What is this nonsense?

    Final point - please dont join in with this "Rafa has spent £260m" fallacy mate. We've got enough people outside theclub agitating to get rid of the manager, without sheep like you joining the flock. In future, talk about his net spend, there's a good boy. You may also like to discuss how this has been offset by prize money.

    The fact is, until Benitez is given sustained, comparable spending power to the clubs who have won in recent seasons, he's fighting with one hand behind his back. He doesn't need jokers like you trying to trip him up into the bargain.

    ReplyDelete
  53. We are not talking about NET SPEND here.  Irrespective of how much money has been recouped, Benitez has, as a matter of fact, spent 260m.

    I have been researching Liverpool's transfers for the last month, poring over club accounts, obtaining the views of accountants about how transfers are calculated etc, and the end result is Benitez has spent 260m. 

    The reason other transfer analyses in the media have come up with the wrong figure is because they do not include ALL transfers, which include ALL young players bought for a fee over the last 5 years.

    This is stiill money Benitez has spent, is it not.

    Furthermore, many of the figures quoted in analyses done by the likes of The Times and The Daily Mail are blatantly wrong.  For example, none of them inlcided the 4.5 which was spent on Kromkamp, or the 2 millions loss made on Palletta.  And the list goes on.

    I will be posting a comprehensive breakdown of Liverpool's gross and net spend very soon, and it will be the comprehensive and accurate one yet.

    On top of that, I have a couple of source within the club who have access to Liverpool's financials, and they have been able to confirm/deny alot of the figures floating around.

    It is 260m Benitez has spent (gross), whether you like it or not.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Jaimie, i admire your continued enthusiasm for Liverpool but often find myself at odds with your opinions and often wonder are some of your comments aimed at provoking a response from Liverpool fans to boost your own profile.

    Here are some of my thoughts on Liverpool FC issues and Premier league in general

    * Liverpool's main rivals Man Utd and Chelsea consistently outspend Liverpool esp when it comes to the big name signings, Liverpool continually scrap it out for likes of Bellamy, Crouch etc for 6-7 million

    * Chelsea and Man City can currently spend vast amounts of cash with no concern as to trying to run their clubs as sensible businesses

    * The Liverpool squad has now almost entirely been bought by Rafa, some bad buys, some excellent such as Torres (who no-one else would take a chance on), a new manager may have to rebuild all over again for another 5 years

    * Current level of spending in Premier League surely cannot be sustainable, Rafa's Reds have been punching above their weight, Liverpool will soon find themselves in a position where 4th or 5th will be the highest they can hope for

    * Liverpool need an oil rich investor to pump endless millions into club (a very undesirable option in most fans eyes) or the premier league to see sense and introduce a salary / spending cap based on a percentage of turnover (Platini and UEFA will hopefully introduce this in next couple of seasons)

    * The new owners are essentially snake oil salesmen who hoodwinked Moores into selling the club to them, they probably didn't envisage being here this long. All their "wealth" is tied up in other "assets" and is of no use to the club. They probably thought that DIC would come back in for the club and make a tidy profit each, but recession hit at wrong time. Please don't defend these guys, they are beneath any of us who love the club

    * We should groundshare with Everton in Stanley Park, build a world class stadium and put it forward for 2018 WC if England's bid is successful

    * Rafa's average net spend per season is something in the region of 20-25 million, that's just 5 decent players in current market

    I have plenty more points, that's just a summary, what thinks all?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Getting a touch defensive there aren't we!!!

    Right, again i'll ask at what point I even came close to saying you weren't a fan. In fact in my last sentence did i not say I presumed you supported the club.

    As for you slagging off the club, just one quote as I cant be arsed to copy and paste anymore...'Liverpool’s often turgid style of play'. Oh well one more then 'you are happy to accept incompetence and underachievement  in the league' and before you say that's criticism of rafa not the club, Rafa is part of the club, which was pretty much my point from the start.

    And as a footnote, if your criticsim is fair, then so's everyone's criticism of your articles. Can't have it both ways i'm afraid. Just makes you look 'narrow and insular'. Which I most definately am not, we're shit at the moment not questions, but we could just as easily win 10 on the bounce and be right back amongst it and whether i bang on and on about how shit we are now will make absolutely no difference either way. Being a fan is about understanding that just cos we win a few on the trot it doesn't make us the world's best team same way as losing a load doesn't make us the worst team. It's just about supporting the club anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Jaimie, here is the Arsenal squad inherited by Wenger;

    1. David Seaman          (England international goalkeeper)
    2. Lee Dixon             (England int right back)
    3. Nigel Winterburn      (England int left back)
    4.
    5. Steve Bould           (England int central defender)
    6. Tony Adams            (England int centre half, club captain)
    7. David Platt           (England captain, international midfielder)
    8. Ian Wright            (England int forward, last term's top scorer)
    9. Paul Merson           (England int midfielder, reformed bad-boy)
    10. Dennis Bergkamp       (Dutch international forward)
    11. Glenn Helder          (Dutch int left winger)
    12. Andy Linighan         (Eng B int central defender, brother of David)
    13. Vince Bartram         (Reserve goalkeeper)
    14. Martin Keown          (England int central defender)
    15. Ray Parlour           (Eng U21 int midfielder with silly haircut)
    16. John Hartson          (Welsh international striker)

    And here is the Liverpool squad Benitex got.

    Dudek
    Kirkland
    Luizi

    Medjani
    hnchoz
    Ostemobor
    Finnan
    Welsh
    Traore
    Hyypia
    Riise
    Diao
    Carra

    Hamman
    Gerrard
    Murphy
    Biscan
    Smicer
    Diouff
    Le Tallec
    Pongolle
    Barros
    Cisse
    Kewell
    Partridge

    Even an idiot can see the difference in the 2 squads. Arsenal full of internationals and seasoned EPL players. Liverpool full of shite with a few crackers!!

    ReplyDelete
  57. See you've edited and changed your post!

    The site is about liverpool, why was Fergie given 7 years, without winning the title.

    eggs for eggs!

    The club directors will have their own reasons for holding on to a manager, wenger is expected to remain in top 4 only! this what club directors are only expecting, by his own admission Arsenal are a selling for the next 17yrs whilst the stadium is being built, hes sell players once their stock value as increased, hes given not given money.

    ReplyDelete
  58. What's blinkered about my comment? I think he should be sacked we've been a complete disgrace this season so i'm hardly a 'Rafa apologist' or part of the 'Rafa is god' brigade. All i said was your post's basically a complete contradiction. If you criticise rafa fairly, as you're so desperate to claim then why bother with the NB section, just stick by the criticism and say he should be sacked now. Otherwise if you're just gonna wait til the end of the season before saying he should go, then having this debate now three months into the season is completely pointless. Surely you should just swallow whatever you think until the end. Basically you're just sitting on the fence.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I dont understand some fans. This article clearly states that the comparison between Rafa and Wenger is distorted, at best, and frankly pointless - Wenger has actually conquered this league on a number of occasions, whilst playing some of the best football seen on these shores (including a season unbeaten), and this has been achieved whilst making a profit in the transfer market. While Rafa has one 2nd place finish in 5 years (which will be 6 by the end of this season). Yet it still comes as a shock to some fans when Rafa gets more criticism then Wenger, from the media and pundits. Is it not clear why Wenger is afforded a little more patients then Rafa (and it is only a little more, the 5-6 years that Rafa has been afforded at liverpool, without a single title, would not be offered at any other top club). Also some ill-informed people think that Wenger inherited a stronger squad then Rafa - The facts are that in the 2 season before each manager took over, Arsenal finished 12th and 5th in the league, while Liverpool finished 5th and 4th. The difference is Wenger turned players that were considered donkeys into world-class players, that people now list as an advantage for Wenger, while forgetting that some of these players were nothing before he got hold of them. 

    ReplyDelete
  60. Who is making this comparison? This is honestly the first time I've heard of it. It sounds like the motivation for the article has come from comments made on this web site. The only valid point that needs to be made is that winning the premiership is, without any doubt, very very difficult. Benitez should be given support and time because there are simply not that many other managers in the game who could even do as well as he has done over the last 5 years. Those are some of the exact same reasons why Wenger is not hung out to dry every time Arsenal go through a bad patch. Wenger also has a great history to back him up but over time even that will become meaningless to some people. Football is far far more complex than "this manager has won X titles over the years and is therefore better than this manager who has won Y".

    ReplyDelete
  61. Let me explain why gross spend is largely irrelevant.
    Liverpool bought Alonso for 10m and received 5 years service
    Liverpool bought Aquilani for 20m and will receive 5 years service

    You would say then that Liverpool paid 30m for ten years from two players (not bad actually)

    However given that we received 30m for Alonso Rafa has not spent any money on those two players, that’s why gross spending is very misleading, so to use it to support an argument is pointless.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Unfortunately Liverpool don't have a right to win the premier league and other teams with lots of money and a stable club structure (and unstable in Man City's case) would also like to win it.

    Given the following, we should give Rafa a lot more time:
    The first team squad is much better than it was when he took over.
    The average age of the players is less
    The reserve and youth teams now have a lot of players that look more than capable of getting into the first team squad: Ayala, Spearing, Kelly, Eclestone, Pacheco, Amoo to name but a few.
    Liverpool finished second second last year despite missing Torres for a big portion of the season.

    This season we have been struggling to field a consistently strong team due to lots of injuries occurring at the same time. This doesn't suddenly mean that it is a disaster. It won't happen every season and we are still close to the champions league qualifying positions.

    Relax. It'll all come good in time.

    Sacking Rafa is just stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  63. One more point

    Why are you not talking about net spend??

    We all have a mate or two who talk about how much they won on a horse or something, but we know the NET amount after a sustained period of betting is the figure that matters

    Makes no sense at all to talk of just the gross figure, paints an entirely false picture

    ReplyDelete
  64. Spot on Simon.

    The only bit i disagee with though is that 20-25 million would get 5 decent players. I'd say 20-25 would get you maybe 3 decent players. Maybe even less!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  65. Not defensive at all - just defending my position.  There is a difference.  And people are allowed toi criticise my articles, but by the same token I am allowed to defend them, which I do.

    Saying the club often has a 'turgid' style of play is not slagging off the club in any shape or form.  It is being truthful.

    Also, I did not accuse Rafa of 'incompetence and underachievement' in the article itself; that was in the comments.

    And yes, I think Rafa's mistakes and stubbornness are the reason Liverpool have failed to win the title.

    Last season is a prime example: The title should've been won, and it had nothing to do with Chelsea/Man U having more money and all the usual excuses.  The team could've won the league but because of Benitez's mistakes throughout the season, Liverpool couldn't capitalise.

    And we're seeing the same thing this season: stubbornnes, refusal to adapt, refusal to do the obvious things re formation/where players play etc.

    Injuries have taken their toll but Liverpool were in the toilet this season before they took hold, and that is down to Benitez.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Don't bother arguing with this idiot folks. A muppet of the highest order.

    ReplyDelete
  67. You state -<span>The Liverpool squad has now almost entirely been bought by Rafa, some bad buys, some excellent such as Torres (who no-one else would take a chance on) - No-one would take a chance on Torres? A.Madrid rejected numerous bids for him from Spain and England, since the 2006 world cup (i think it was 2006). We just got lucky that the summer we went for him Torres had decided that he wanted CL league football and this was not gonna be achieved with his home-town club. Also he was Rafa 2nd choice target after Eto'o demanded too much in wages. Peace</span>
    <span><span>
    </span></span>

    ReplyDelete
  68. Jamie,

    Undoubtedly Wenger has been successful but his philosophy is all about buying young players who can be become world class players rather then going out and spending big money on players. Fair enough that strategy has been succesful for Arsenal.

    Now i'm no Rafa apologist but rafa taking over at liverpool time after Houiller wasn't going to be able to do that. So rafa had to go out and try to buy proven players. We can argue all day long about how much money Rafa has had to spend but the issue for me is has Rafa been able to consistently spend big money on players. You may remember that in my last post I pointed out that the former Chairman Moore had to take a personal loan to pay fo Kuyt and H&G did the same to buy Torres. Compared to Manu who can buy Berbatov for 30m, Valencia for 20m etc without having to sell first.

    Rafa benitez does infuriate me sometimes with his over caution and subs but lets be honest what ever manager could have gotten players like:

    Biscan, tallec, mellor, smicer, etc to perform the way they did and what have these players achieved since leaving liverpool? You've mentioned in other articles the pressure of being a liverpool player and the expectations from the fans and the history of the club itself particularly after the success of Manu. Yes Rafa hasn't won the league in five years but a CL and CL finale is nothing to be dismissed. Afterall Chelsea would gladly swap the PL this year for the CL given they've never won it.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Every article I post that is critical of Benitez brings with it countless people accusing me of wanting him sacked.  I have to waste time deleting dozens of posts that say things like 'You're so stupid to want Rafa sacked' and things to that effect.  I put the NB there so people don't have the excuse to say that.

    And I am not sitting on the fence at all.  My position is clear: Benitez is not the right manager to bring the title to Liverpool.  Give him to the end of the season and then let him walk away.  That is a very clear position.

    ReplyDelete
  70. I think it would be fairer to compare what Wenger and Rafa won in their 1st 5 years. Thats a more like for like comparison. 

    ReplyDelete
  71. i meant 20-25 million would get you 1 decent player per season, so 5 in total

    But considering Liverpool were apparently quoted 20 million for Carlton Cole and spent a widely reported 20 million on Keane (money that was never reinvested), maybe 20 million is not much these days

    ReplyDelete
  72. The way I see it is....

    Wenger won titles when it was Wenger Vs Ferguson (or Arsenal Vs Man U....only two competors)...people forget Liverpool and chelsea were not as strong then as they are now....i am still grateful that he stagnated Man U or they would have surpassed our league title record already.....

    when Chelsea spent the money they did there were 3 competitors....Wenger could not compete in this battle.....

    When Rafa came along.....remember the Team he inherited......not exactly world beaters but there was some talent....mainly gerrard, carra, hamman.....there were others but not of the quality to challenge for the title.....BUT....he won the champions league.....which automatically created the BIG FOUR.....four competitors for the league title.....

    Fergie...then spent big.....there was a minimum of 8-10 buys ranginng for 15-30 mil and delivered 3 in a row...with a 1 cl

    Since the BIG 4 status Wenger has delivered nothing......and im sure rafa has finished above wenger 3 out 5 seasons he has been in charge.....



    My take on this season is Arsenal will win it....they look strong.....



    where as we did not do enough spending......i feel we have an excellent player in aquilani....not just talking him up but he can play football....johnson was an excellent buy.....but that was not enough..that was what we already had....an excellent centre mid and right back...if we could add 2 or 3 of the following then i believe we will win the title.....



    1. David Villa

    2. David Silva

    3. Ribery

    4. Aguero

    5. Messi

    6. Mata

    7. Iniesta

    8. Yaya Toure

    9. Van Persie



    I know some...if not all are impossible.....but it is what is required....



    NOT Carlton Cole, Pavlechenko, Van der Vaart (this guy is quality but he is in the band below what we need)....

    ReplyDelete
  73. take the blinkers off Jaimie...wenger had a league wining team in the making when he took over. Rafa had to offload millions of pounds worth of turkeys signed by houllier at a loss.

    cisse -12mills
    Diouf- 12mills
    Cheyrou- 3.5mills
    Diao- 6mills

    ReplyDelete
  74. so why can arsen compete now....

    ReplyDelete
  75. That's an unbelievably biased and blinkered way of looking at things. for someone who claims to be so open minded. You could just as easily say we wouldn't have been as close to winning the title if it wasn't for Rafa's correct decisions and management style last season and that would be just as valid an arguement as the one you've just made.

    I completely agree that we shouldn't look for excuses, and that our failings to date have largely been Rafa's responsibility. He took a gamble in replacing alonso with aquilani and not another player and knowing that we'd not be able to use him for a couple of months. He hoped we had cover to get by until the bloke came back to fitness and he's been proved beyond doubt to be wrong and we've been crap. Now my point is and always has been that it's more than likely the board will keep him on til the end of the seaon regardless so what's the point in going on and on about his 'incompetence' (you said it whether it be in the article or the comments) now, as no matter how much you do it still wont change the fact that he's the manager we  the fans so why not just accept it and support the club until as it is now, until things change?

    But you've missed my point since my first comment  as you got straight on the defensive and started attacking me as a Rafa is God merchant which clearly i'm not. I'm just a realist, who accepts he has no bearing on the big picture so decides to support as best he can despite this. You've only succeeded in making yourself look narrow minded and insular by jumping down my throat and missing the point completely.

    ReplyDelete
  76. jaimie, are u really that deluded?? utd had just as much money as chelsea over the years...proof of this is as follows

    voron -28mills
    Ferdinand- 30mills
    Rooney- 28mills
    berbatov- 30mills
    Nani - 17mills
    Anderson- 18mills
    carrick - 16mills
    Hargreaves - 16.5mills

    ReplyDelete
  77. Because....

    Nasri, Arshavin, Vermalann, Eduardo, Rosicky, Sagna, Walcott, Van persie.....who were all money buys (some big) are paying off.....

    Fabrgas...cost alot for a 16year old people 4get....

    ReplyDelete
  78. whats the net of that £260mills....or doesnt that matter?!! 

    ReplyDelete
  79. BIJ. So, that's the only point you disagree with in my post?

    Why were we the only one's to ever make a concrete bid for him? Chelsea and Man U could easily have gazumped us if they wanted to

    My main point was that Rafa has built the current squad. (An aside to this is that the best signing, Torres, has credited Rafa with changing his game and increasing his goals tally. He wasn't prolific beforehand and was often widely ridiculed in Spain)

    If Rafa goes, we may have to go through another rebuilding period although hopefully not one as severe or long as the post houllier period

    ReplyDelete
  80. Again, pointless comment. If he's not the right manager why the hell would you wanna bother waiting til the end of the season? Why not get him out now and get someone new in so they've got at least half a season to build for next? 

    Mayb then we'll have a few months rest from your pointless posts at least.

    ReplyDelete
  81. <span><span><span><span>Tottenham's latest financial results have revealed transfer spending of almost £150million in the last 16 months, surpassing the traditional Barclays Premier League top four and coming second only to Manchester City. </span></span></span>



    <span><span><span>Spurs announced record pre-tax profits in the year ending June 2009, helped by the sale of Dimitar Berbatov to Manchester United and Robbie Keane to Liverpool, although both those heavyweights appear conservative in their transfer spending compared to the club currently fourth in the Barclays Premier League. </span></span></span><span><span><span>Chelsea</span></span><span><span> and Arsenal have also been prudent during the same period, while Spurs have needed to reshape their squad following the departure of Juande Ramos and appointment of Harry Redknapp as manager. </span></span></span><span><span><span>Spurs spent £119.3million in the financial year, with another £29.4million invested since on Peter Crouch, Sebastien Bassong, Niko Kranjcar, Kyle Naughton and Kyle Walker, their results confirmed. </span></span></span><span><span><span>Chairman Daniel Levy, who has also overseen projects on a new training ground and stadium, said: "We have made significant progress in delivering on our long-term vision for the club. </span></span></span>
    <span><span><span>"We have always had three key priorities and you will have heard them oft repeated - investment in the first team, a new training centre and an increased capacity, state-of-the-art new stadium. </span></span></span><span><span><span>"We have assembled what we believe to be one of the most talented squads we have had during our time in the Premier League, the ground is being turned and pitches laid for the new training centre at Bulls Cross in Enfield and we have submitted a planning application for a stunning new stadium on a site next to our existing stadium." </span></span></span><span><span><span>Spurs' pre-tax profits was £33.4million, with the departure of Berbatov valued at £23.4million, although it is understood there are clauses that could see that figure rise if activated. </span></span></span><span><span><span>The figures also estimate the club having total assets of "almost £300million". Should Spurs maintain their current league position and qualify for the Champions League, the overall value of the club would be expected to rise. </span></span></span>

    </span>

    ReplyDelete
  82. <span>We have the fifth most expensive squad and fifth highest wage bill in the league but are still expected to win the title. If you expect a manager to achieve something you need to give him the necessary support for it and that isn’t being given at the moment.</span>

    ReplyDelete
  83. Jaimie, we all know you want Martin o Neill to Succeed Rafa....yes, MON with a win percentage of <span>only 40%</span> since he went to villa. 

    ReplyDelete
  84. Say what you will, we cant afford to offload Rafa right now or that would jeopardize any significant transfers we might need to make.
    Cost to let go: +-20M

    ReplyDelete
  85. Jaimie,

    I have to agree and disagree with certain aspects of your article.

    I do agree that Rafa has had a lot of time to build his squad. But, i do not agree that he should be sacked, regardless of what results are produced at the end of the season. Would Manchester United have become such a force has they sacked Ferguson after the first few years of his tenure, when United were not doing well?

    Granted Rafa's record in the Premier League in the past 5 years does not make great reading, however, you really have to be joking if you think football has'nt changed in the past 5 years. A few examples for you: 1. Would Ballack have joined Chelsea if they did not, at the time, have a bottomless pit of cash? 2. Would Robhino have joined Man City from Real Madrid if they also did not have a bottomless pit of cash? 3. Would Carlo Ancelotti or Murinho have ever considered joining Chelsea without the Roman's cash injection?. Everything in Football revolves around money and that has been the case, unfortunately for Rafa, since he joined Liverpool.

    What i do find very fascinating is Wengers ability to spot talent within a bargain. Not other manager in the world has this ability. In that respect, Rafa will never have a chance against Wenger.

    Rafa has had many issues in the past 5 yeas since football has 'changed'. Most of his transfer targets, i am led to believe, rejected the chance to join us or the transfer cost were being pushed up and up. A certain Simoa comes to mind in that regard. Daniel Alves chose to join Barcelona. Malouda chose to join Chelsea. These are just the few high-profile names that come to mind. The above is caused by a lack of funds (Both transfer cost and wage bills) or Rafa's unwillingness to pay over the odds (True for Simoa and Malouda, both have yet to make an impact at their respective clubs).

    At the time that Rafa took over as the manager at Liverpool, he had no choice in the sale of Owen. He also had no choice in our record signing, at the time, Cisse. Coupled with that, Cisse was not even available up until the latter end of the season. Wenger, on the other hand, had a well formed team, when he arrived at Arsenal. Defensively, they were very good at the time. In your comments above above, you mentioned Kewell having a good season the year prior to Rafa joing LFC. What good has he been to Rafa after that single good season. You also mention the likes of Degen, Voronin, Zenden, Kromkamp, Josemi and Babel, however, the first 3 were free. Besides Babel, the rest are bargain basements.

    I think the comparison you make should not be between Rafa and Wenger but between Rafa and Ferguson. Compare Ferguson's first 5 years to Rafa's first 5 years. This should make interesting reading. Caparatively, i think both clubs were in the same state. However, i think that Rafa probably has more trophies.

    Make no mistake, LFC has a better squad from the one that he inherited when he joined LFC. The only thing is that the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City and to some extent, Spurs (Arsenal and exception), have made significant strides in improving their squads, more so than LFC. It all comes down to cash.

    Dont get me wrong, my opinion is that Wenger is one of the best managers in the premier league. However, using Wenger as a yardstick for Rafa is incorrect. Circumstances are different as mentioned above. I dont think Wenger has had to deal with as much boardroom drama as Rafa as well as the Klinsmann issue. I am actually surprised, first of all that Rafa signed a new contract, and even more surprised that he is still there. I for one would be very disappointed if he left.

    ReplyDelete
  86. I think it was a huge mistake selling Sami. I would even say that we would only have conceded half the amount of goals we have so far, had he stayed..  :)

    ReplyDelete
  87. Thanks for posting that Jim.
    He calls some people as part of the Rafa can do no wrong brigade.
    He seems to be of the Rafa can do no right Brigade.
    No doubt he won't answer this and many other valid posts on here.
    It seems to me this Jamie Kanwar chap is yet another atention seeking fan that happens to have an ignorant view of Rafa.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Wenger has built Premier League winning sides, the last time he won a league was the same year as Rafa.
    Rafa has won the European Cup, which Wenger can't say.
    Your anti Rafa propoganda is full of holes and you get very sensitive to people pulling you on them. Fully expect this comment to be deleted which is another of your tactics.
    How you see fit to constantly castigate a man who has contributed positively to the club whilst supporting two who have made it into a laughing stock, is a question only you can answer. You love the owners, care to comment why we are in more debt now that we were when they took over?

    ReplyDelete
  89. "The article is not about who has been more sucessful over the last 5 years.  It is about WHY Wenger is given more time than Benitex to build a winning team.  "
    With regards to this article, I for once agree with you: Wenger is afforded more time and patience because of what he has achieved by winning the league title a few times. But I don't think it is right, necessarily.

    That's because you cannot discount the last 5 years when considering this issue. To do so is short sighted.

    5 years is a long time whether you're Rafa, Wenger or anyone. And Liverpool have been miles better than Arsenal (overall) in that period by the way. That should afford him afford him a lot of time.

    I'm not Benitez's biggest fan, by the way, so don't start with crap about "blind faith" etc

    But you all to easily discount some very relevant facts about this issue. Facts, by the way, if you were in a Court of law, for example, WOULD stand up as valid in this debate:

    1. Since Rafa has taken charge, each season has represented a significant improvement from the last in the league. (This season looking like the exception). Rafa has finally got us to this stage where we are challenging (or should be) for the title. The progress under Rafa has been steady but real. Whether he can take the final step, is a different question. But one cannot argue with the SIGNIFICANT improvements we have made under him. That should afford him some time to turn this season around.

    2. During this period of improvement, he won us the European Cup, and got us close to a second. We are feared in Europe. We want the league, yes, but don't tell me this isn't important to us. Historically, it can be argued that the European Cup is just as important to Liverpool FC as the league titles. It is part of the fabric of this club. Rafa has restored this side of our club. This should, and rightly so, give him some time when things don't go so good like now. 

    3. Rafa inherited an abysmal squad. Whichever way you look at it, our squad now is so much better. It can legitimately be argued that our squad should be better than it actually is, though. But he also inherited a non-existent youth team. Le tallec being our brightest hope from that generation (great). Our entire youth academy has been revamped into something that actually looks like it can produce a first team player.

    4. Wenger inherited a much more accomplished squad.

    5. Our defenders have been poor this year. Blame Benitez all you like but Carragher and Skrtel have made so many uncharactaristic individual errors that have cost us. That has nothing to do with tactics or Benitez. When a defender makes a mistake, it inevitably leads to a goalscoring opportunity. If, say Kuyt, loses the ball upfield, there are usually players to cover.

    With all of the above, why shouldn't Rafa be afforded some parity with Wenger re the issue of time?

    The issue of 'time' cannot be properly considered without looking at ALL of the factors. It is a short sighted argument otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  90. As an Arsenal fan and looking at the 'goings on' at your club from afar, I rate Benitez highly as a manager but he seems to have had a bit of a stinker this summer in the transfer market (as all managers do from time to time) and with the current injuries is paying the price.

    Don't get me wrong, Aquilani and Johnson are both good players but I'd question as to whether Benitez has made the best use of the money he had available.  I'm aware H & G didn't back him financially and he had to break even (something we're used to at Arsenal) but surely he knew this which is why I'd question the wisdom of spending 17 million on a right back. You already had a strong starting XI last season and if anything only seemed to need to fill out your squad a bit to help you last the course. Not world beaters, a couple of solid pros who could happily come in and do a solid job when needed would do. Or maybe a slightly younger player or two who could come in and do a job now with scope for them possibly improving more in the future. That's why I'd question his movements in the last transfer window. But as I said before he's a good manager and I'm sure that if he's given the time he'll turn things round.

    Will Benitez be given that time? It strikes me that the answer to that will more than likely come from the dressing room. As I understand it your owners have their differences so I'm not sure the decision is likely to come from the boardroom (there's also been talk that they couldn't afford to sack him although I don't know how true that is). It's the dressing room that holds they key. As long as Benitez still has the backing of the players I can't see him moving on.

    As for the comparisons of Wenger's and Benitez's last 5 years I don't think you can really compare the two tbh as the two have been going about things in different ways and with different things going on at their respective clubs.  Wenger's quickly disbanded 'the invincibles' (it was the press that gave us that name btw, not a fan of it myself), had the stadium move and then gone with youth and given them the game time to develop.  It was always going to be more of a long term project and bar the odd bit of grumbling I think most Arsenal fans on the whole have accepted that.  Benitez on the other hand has had different things to cope with on and off the pitch and gone about things his own way. Not really easy to compare the two.

    One last point from reading previous comments regarding Arsenal. The squad Wenger arrived to take over were said to be over the hill and in need of replacing and Wenger's also never had 'big money' to spend. He's always generated his own funds through sales such as Anelka or Overmars. His net spending over his 13 years is something like 68 million.

    Anyhow, whilst the Prem looks gone and Champs Lge iffy at the moment, you'll get players back and fit, finish the season strongly and finish top 4.  Perhaps not what you were hoping for at the start of the season but not the doom and gloom the press would have you believe now.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Yep Simon, thats the only point that I disagree with. But I will repeat that "concrete" bids were made in previous transfer windows but rejected, mainly because at that point Torres wanted to achieve something with his home town club. I cant answer why other clubs didnt gazump our offer, but it could be anything form not needing a striker, or not having funds. But if Rafa was so sure about him, why didnt he go for him before Eto'o? Agreed that he has improved at Liverpool, under Rafa (one of a few), but imagine what a monster e would have been in an Arsenal or Man u team. Just glad Eto'o a greedy so, so.  

    ReplyDelete
  92. Many thanks bazza / jim for injecting some sense into jaime's rantings, it's perfectly valid to compare wenger and benitez's records over the last 5 seasons, As shown in the inherited squads list posted earlier, rafa had to rebuild a whole squad apart from a handful of players where as wenger inherited something close to a fantasy football squad.


    When wenger won his titles it was a 2 team lg with Manu, the league was far more competitive when rafa joined in 2004.

    You also missed the fact that the season that rafa joined lfc, transfer fee went crazy with abramovich's money,  players such as SWF & ESSIEN who should have cost £9M & £15M respectively,  where suddenly commanding fees of £19m and £25m, drogba £26m, and this was from a team that finshed 2nd in the lg, and 19 points better than us.

    Arsenal racked up 90 points in their unbeaten season. Every season we have improved as a team and increased our final points tally, ok I doubt that we will do that this season,  but I am 100% behind rafa, do you even remember what it was like in the houillier's final season, there is no comparison to the squad that we have now albeit wracked by injuries,

    under rafa we have got used to constant CL qualification and 2 finals a semi, 2 QF's how much money has rafa earnt the club with the success we have had in europe?.


    We arenot blind loyalists rather I, like 95% of lfc fans have the ability to see the bigger picture. rather than take your totally banal and myopic view point. Rafa has earnt the right to go through a tough patch without idiots calling for his head, it's bad enough with the tabloid redtops trying to incite lfc fans to get rafa the sack. IN RAFA WE TRUST AND STILL BELIEVE

    ReplyDelete
  93. I think <span>Jaimie is really comparing apples to oranges. I think you we simply compare the coaches alone. They are only part of the whole machinery. The machinery that has become the football club rather.
    </span>

    <span>I like Wenger - he has done wonderful job with his team - for people who say Wenger won because he inherited a great squad - you just have to look at their unbeatable side of 2004. Wenger made that squad himself. If not for </span>Abramovich he would have won PL next year too. <span>But then again - his returns for overall period is rather small.
    </span>

    <span>I</span><span>n my opinion, failure of Liverpool cannot be pointed only to Rafa. </span><span>We dont fully know the money he is allowed to spend. We do know that he did not have control on player dealings as much as he wanted. We need to think about all the resources the club has provided him. And that includes scouts, pitch, medical staff and all. Then think if Rafa has failed them. And I dont think he has.
    </span>

    ReplyDelete
  94. rafa spends lots of money too,while mr wenger built a new stadium and worked under financial restrictions,just look what rafa has done to babel and tell me this manager can improve a team without millions upon millions spent

    ReplyDelete
  95. the question is,if rafa goes who would liverpool employ to do the job?? this is the real question,sack rafa and employ who?

    ReplyDelete
  96. I couldn't read all that, so I apologize if this is redundant.  Bottom line: Aresenal is Arsenal and Liverpool is Liverpool.  The argument and comparison of the two clubs and managers, is irrelevant.  Benitez, what have you done for me lately?  Not much.  Your time could be up.  We should give little care to what the management of another top four club is offering to their manager.  It's like comparing what type of STD you have, you have one, so deal with it in your own fashion.  The author is accurate in stating this comparison is invalid. 

    ReplyDelete
  97. Jaimie

    yes football has changed so much.  Not necessarily in the last 5 years but certainly since the advent of the premier League.

    I think that it is your intention to provoke strong responses from fellow reds by adopting a controversial stance.

    Your supposition that the comparison is invalid is blown out of the water by the post from Jim which details in black and white the merits of the squad inherited by Wenger versus the squad inherited by Benitez.  In fact, other than the interruption during the Bruce Rioch years you could argue that Wenger inherited the vast majority the squad that knocked us of our fucking perch.

    If you genuinely believe what you write I dont understand your viewpoint, the same as I dont understand the viewpoint who think the sun shines out of Benitez's arse.  Yes we're having a poor run.  Yes Benitez has made some bad decisions (this season and throughout his tenure).  Yes Liverpool have had some rotten luck this term.  Does money effect league position?  Of course it does - only an idiot would argue otherwise.  Without going into the ins and outs of relative squad values and (some would argue) the more useful quantum of relative wage bills, it is a fact that liverpool are out outside the top four in both of these measures (I strongly suggest you read Tomkins blog Jaimie).

    Is Benitez a bad manager - no.  Is he the messiah some reds seem to think he is - again no.  However given the lack of investment he is constrained by, do I think anyone could do a better job - no.  Furthermore do you want a new man to come in and have 5 years to put their own personality on the club..............................?

    I think all right minded reds should not want that.  Lets give him another 3 or 4 years.  Lets see what he can do if we get some proper money behind us.  Lets all stop the carping and back biting because I know for a fact most sane reds are sick of it.

    Jaimie - stop posting inflammatory 'articles' that you know full well get picked up by newsnow.  And fellow reds - stop reading this site if it winds you up.  Life is too short.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Dont think that's true. If he gets another job then we won't be liable for that payout..pretty sure the club will not have to pay him 20M.

    ReplyDelete
  99. As an objective football fan (since 1977, as you ask) I must say I agree with Jaimie.
    Rafa is not a good enough manager to win you the title, although he'll keep knocking off the odd cup.
    I think part of the problem for Rafa, Liverpool fans and the board is that "The Miracle at Istanbul" artificially raised expectations. You're a top four side. Nothing more.
    You have an average manager and an average squad. Gerrard and Torres are class. That's it. 

    ReplyDelete
  100. Jeez, you guys miss the point so spectacularly it's funny. You're all saying well Rafa has  done better than Wenger in the last 5 years etc. Well look at his spending and compare it to Wenger's..using your logic he SHOULD have done better. He's spent 110M net and Wenger has spent -33M. Now which squad looks better?

    Wenger has been constrained by his club's building of a new stadium and he has rebuilt a squad while making a profit of 33M. Ask yourself what our squad would look like if Benitez had spent -33M on players. You're all bleating he hasn't spent enough as it is, yet you totally ignore the fact Wenger has spent a fraction of what he has. Our RIGHT BACK cost more than ANY player ever signed by Wenger. On top of that his teams play brilliant attacking football, and as Jamie says, he has consistently shown he can WIN this league. Benitez hasn't.

    Benitez has way more than what Wenger has and can only show 1 title challenge in 6 seasons and a squad that if you took out Torres and Gerrard would be a mid-table side(as it is now)

    I would love to see our record with Wenger's transfer budget. You all claim he hasn't had enough dough but then ignore the fact Wenger doesn't do any worse with far less to spend.

     Ask yourself this question. If you gave both manager 200M to spend, in 5 years who would have a better squad? IMO it's a no-brainer. Wenger every time.

    ReplyDelete
  101. jaimie, i believe that fans are just that - fans. we sould not insite thought that goes against the club policy. if the club support benitez, so should we.
    i don't believe you are a good fan, constantly assesing stats and creating articles to create arguments is no real way to help anyone. a real fan will support he club no matter what and if you were managing director you could sack benitez, but your not - so leave it alone.

    support LFC

    Support Benitez

    Support the squad

    True Fans

    ReplyDelete
  102. NO comparison is really wanted. The simple question is, Has Rafa earned the additional time to continue as LFC manager. As has been said in previous posts:

    2004/2005: EPL - 5th (58pts, -37pts), CL title, FA Cup 3rd round

    2005/2006: EPL - 3rd (82pts, -9pts), CL 1st knock-out rd., FA Cup Champion

    2006/2007: EPL - 3rd (68pts, -15pts), CL Final, FA Cup 3rd rd.

    2007/2008: EPL - 4th (76pts, -11pts), CL Semis, FA Cup 5th rd.

    2008/2009: EPL - 2nd (86pts, -4pts), CL Quarters, FA Cup 4th rd.

    One could reasonably argue that what he has achieved here at LFC combined with what he was able to do in his time at Valencia has earned him the leeway to be manager @ LFC for at least 1 more season. THose who support the manager are not "Rafa is God" blinkers wearing fanatics.

    The reason ppl attack so strongly on this site in support of the manager, IMO, is that JK puts his opinions out there and at no time in my recollection has he come out and said "u know what maybe ur right".Everyone at some point in time has changed/adjusted their opinion when presented new info or heard someone elses view. Somehow Mr. Kanwar, at least when it comes to LFC matters, thinks he is always right.

    ReplyDelete
  103. we do not have enough quality players!  every year there are budget constraints and we end up signing second grade players. On numerous occasions, the players we sign add nothing new to the team except for signings like johnson and torres. last summer we sold alonso n arbeloa for 34 million and bought johnson n aquilani for 37 million. not quite an improvement is it?? and rafa's style of play is not drab. it is a very balanced one that revolves around game intelligence and passing which, c'est la vie, we've only seen on a few occasions. and football definitely has changed! can you even imagine a club spending 80 million on a player 7-8 years ago. no way! you can't expect rafa to turn a pile of crap into something useful. oh wait! he's already done that with lucas!!!

    ReplyDelete
  104. Liverpool have never been the same club since Arsenal ended your dynasty at Anfield in '89.
    Souness finished the job off.
    Since then, you've fallen away like no other club in English football history (well, maybe Leeds).
    For me (and, I'm sure, many other football fans) it is delicious irony that all those Liverpool bandwagon fans who jumped on board when you were winning everything (and on TV all the time) in the '70s and '80s are now stuck with an average top-7 team.
    Karma, I suppose...  

    ReplyDelete
  105. because 26 million was over the top in hindsight a great buy... if he plays again mmmmmmm babel 12 million or so twice the arsenal estimation

    ReplyDelete
  106. the reason we give arsene wenger more time is because we know that our youth academy is strong and that trophies will come.
    i dont see as many talented players coming out of your academy.
    even then there were quite a number of fans calling for wenger to be sacked
    the thing is , we have a sustainable future,i cant see liverpool improving withuot splashing cash which you dont have

    ReplyDelete
  107. if wenger was available tomorrow and willing to sign would for LFC would Rafa stay or go?? would liverpool fans here want him?? or stick with FSW??

    ReplyDelete
  108. Jaimie Wenger is fantastic manager, no question.

    He did inherit a SIGNIFACANTLY better team than Benitez did, that's a fact.

    You as a person don't like Benitez and you don't want him to be at Liverpool, I know this to be true because you've said it in an article with ESPN, ergo I don't see how you can publish the motto "Rejecting BIASED media..." when you yourself are biased against Benitez?

     You condemn the "Rafa Brigade" and yet you yourself belong to the anti "Rafa Brigade" pure hypocrisy.  It's like a Klu-Klux Klan member birating a racial awareness representative for being biased!

    FYI many Arsenal fans were calling for Wenger to be axed during last season, it was all over the press and having spent time in London via work I can say with absolute clarity that there were many fans calling for change.

    You get it at any Club, I call it "the geordie scenario". In some way I actually hope that you get what you want and Rafa does get the sack, I've no idea who you think is good enough to replace him or who would come to the Club whilst H&G remain our Owners and there is an all too apparent lack of money at the Club. I'll laugh my ass off if you say Martin O'Neill, he's simply not good enough.

    We have the 5th placed highest valued squad in the EPL and we're 5th in terms of wages, are those facts Rafa's fault? On average Benitez is in profit through player sales so how is it that we still have a squad which is valued behind Tottenham? Is it because Rafa has spent badly? Well not according to his NET spend of £17m (approx) a season he hasn't, and as I've said he's earned more than he's lost through player sales.

    if you think for one second that Rafa could have done a better job whilst only spending £17m NET a season on players you are completely dillisional, I can't explain any more to the fools who consisently repeat "he's wasted money on players" because I've done it till I'm blue in the face, Ferguson has wasted a fortune on players that didn't cut the mustard but the difference is there has always been a fortune behind him to make amends.

    What are our biggest purchases?

    Johnson £17m
    Mascherano £18m
    Torres £23m
    Keane £19m
    Aquilani £20m

    Rafa has bought only TWO players that have breached the £20m mark, TWO! And that's in 5 years!

    Ferguson in recent years?

    Veron £28m (British transfer record)
    Ferdinand 29m (British transfer Record)
    Nani £17m
    Anderson £18m
    Carrick £18m
    Rooney £28m
    Berbatov £32m (British transfer Record - pre Robinho)
    van Nistelrooy £19m
    Hargreaves £20m
    Valencia £17m

    8 of those listed are still at the Club and have been purchased during or just prior to Rafa joining Liverpool. Where can I ask is Fergie's witch-hunt for a player who was constantly injured prior to joining United (Hargreaves) as we had with Aquilani for buying an "injury prone" player?

    They've recently bought Tosic from Partizan for a reported fee of £16m (eventually) and he's made 2 appearances! Does Rafa have the kind of financial backing to do the same?

    What people fail to realise is that success and money are comprehensively linked to a degree of 92%. Mark my words, Spurs and City will BOTH overtake us and soon unless we get some much needed investment through the door.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Jaimie Wenger is fantastic manager, no question.

    He did inherit a SIGNIFACANTLY better team than Benitez did, that's a fact.

    You as a person don't like Benitez and you don't want him to be at Liverpool, I know this to be true because you've said it in an article with ESPN, ergo I don't see how you can publish the motto "Rejecting BIASED media..." when you yourself are biased against Benitez?

     You condemn the "Rafa Brigade" and yet you yourself belong to the anti "Rafa Brigade" pure hypocrisy.  It's like a Klu-Klux Klan member birating a racial awareness representative for being biased!

    FYI many Arsenal fans were calling for Wenger to be axed during last season, it was all over the press and having spent time in London via work I can say with absolute clarity that there were many fans calling for change.

    You get it at any Club, I call it "the geordie scenario". In some way I actually hope that you get what you want and Rafa does get the sack, I've no idea who you think is good enough to replace him or who would come to the Club whilst H&G remain our Owners and there is an all too apparent lack of money at the Club. I'll laugh my ass off if you say Martin O'Neill, he's simply not good enough.

    We have the 5th placed highest valued squad in the EPL and we're 5th in terms of wages, are those facts Rafa's fault? On average Benitez is in profit through player sales so how is it that we still have a squad which is valued behind Tottenham? Is it because Rafa has spent badly? Well not according to his NET spend of £17m (approx) a season he hasn't, and as I've said he's earned more than he's lost through player sales.

    if you think for one second that Rafa could have done a better job whilst only spending £17m NET a season on players you are completely dillisional, I can't explain any more to the fools who consisently repeat "he's wasted money on players" because I've done it till I'm blue in the face, Ferguson has wasted a fortune on players that didn't cut the mustard but the difference is there has always been a fortune behind him to make amends.

    What are our biggest purchases?

    Johnson £17m
    Mascherano £18m
    Torres £23m
    Keane £19m
    Aquilani £20m

    Rafa has bought only TWO players that have breached the £20m mark, TWO! And that's in 5 years!

    Ferguson in recent years?

    Veron £28m (British transfer record)
    Ferdinand 29m (British transfer Record)
    Nani £17m
    Anderson £18m
    Carrick £18m
    Rooney £28m
    Berbatov £32m (British transfer Record - pre Robinho)
    van Nistelrooy £19m
    Hargreaves £20m
    Valencia £17m

    8 of those listed are still at the Club and have been purchased during or just prior to Rafa joining Liverpool. Where can I ask is Fergie's witch-hunt for a player who was constantly injured prior to joining United (Hargreaves) as we had with Aquilani for buying an "injury prone" player?

    They've recently bought Tosic from Partizan for a reported fee of £16m (eventually) and he's made 2 appearances! Does Rafa have the kind of financial backing to do the same?

    What people fail to realise is that success and money are comprehensively linked to a degree of 92%. Mark my words, Spurs and City will BOTH overtake us and soon unless we get some much needed investment through the door.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Jaimie Wenger is fantastic manager, no question.

    He did inherit a SIGNIFACANTLY better team than Benitez did, that's a fact.

    You as a person don't like Benitez and you don't want him to be at Liverpool, I know this to be true because you've said it in an article with ESPN, ergo I don't see how you can publish the motto "Rejecting BIASED media..." when you yourself are biased against Benitez?

     You condemn the "Rafa Brigade" and yet you yourself belong to the anti "Rafa Brigade" pure hypocrisy.  It's like a Klu-Klux Klan member birating a racial awareness representative for being biased!

    FYI many Arsenal fans were calling for Wenger to be axed during last season, it was all over the press and having spent time in London via work I can say with absolute clarity that there were many fans calling for change.

    You get it at any Club, I call it "the geordie scenario". In some way I actually hope that you get what you want and Rafa does get the sack, I've no idea who you think is good enough to replace him or who would come to the Club whilst H&G remain our Owners and there is an all too apparent lack of money at the Club. I'll laugh my ass off if you say Martin O'Neill, he's simply not good enough.

    We have the 5th placed highest valued squad in the EPL and we're 5th in terms of wages, are those facts Rafa's fault? On average Benitez is in profit through player sales so how is it that we still have a squad which is valued behind Tottenham? Is it because Rafa has spent badly? Well not according to his NET spend of £17m (approx) a season he hasn't, and as I've said he's earned more than he's lost through player sales.

    if you think for one second that Rafa could have done a better job whilst only spending £17m NET a season on players you are completely dillisional, I can't explain any more to the fools who consisently repeat "he's wasted money on players" because I've done it till I'm blue in the face, Ferguson has wasted a fortune on players that didn't cut the mustard but the difference is there has always been a fortune behind him to make amends.

    What are our biggest purchases?

    Johnson £17m
    Mascherano £18m
    Torres £23m
    Keane £19m
    Aquilani £20m

    Rafa has bought only TWO players that have breached the £20m mark, TWO! And that's in 5 years!

    Ferguson in recent years?

    Veron £28m (British transfer record)
    Ferdinand 29m (British transfer Record)
    Nani £17m
    Anderson £18m
    Carrick £18m
    Rooney £28m
    Berbatov £32m (British transfer Record - pre Robinho)
    van Nistelrooy £19m
    Hargreaves £20m
    Valencia £17m

    8 of those listed are still at the Club and have been purchased during or just prior to Rafa joining Liverpool. Where can I ask is Fergie's witch-hunt for a player who was constantly injured prior to joining United (Hargreaves) as we had with Aquilani for buying an "injury prone" player?

    They've recently bought Tosic from Partizan for a reported fee of £16m (eventually) and he's made 2 appearances! Does Rafa have the kind of financial backing to do the same?

    What people fail to realise is that success and money are comprehensively linked to a degree of 92%. Mark my words, Spurs and City will BOTH overtake us and soon unless we get some much needed investment through the door.

    ReplyDelete
  111. <span>Jaimie Wenger is fantastic manager, no question.
    He did inherit a SIGNIFACANTLY better team than Benitez did, that's a fact.
    You as a person don't like Benitez and you don't want him to be at Liverpool, I know this to be true because you've said it in an article with ESPN, ergo I don't see how you can publish the motto "Rejecting BIASED media..." when you yourself are biased against Benitez?
     You condemn the "Rafa Brigade" and yet you yourself belong to the anti "Rafa Brigade" pure hypocrisy.  It's like a Klu-Klux Klan member birating a racial awareness representative for being biased!
    FYI many Arsenal fans were calling for Wenger to be axed during last season, it was all over the press and having spent time in London via work I can say with absolute clarity that there were many fans calling for change.
    You get it at any Club, I call it "the geordie scenario". In some way I actually hope that you get what you want and Rafa does get the sack, I've no idea who you think is good enough to replace him or who would come to the Club whilst H&G remain our Owners and there is an all too apparent lack of money at the Club. I'll laugh my ass off if you say Martin O'Neill, he's simply not good enough.
    We have the 5th placed highest valued squad in the EPL and we're 5th in terms of wages, are those facts Rafa's fault? On average Benitez is in profit through player sales so how is it that we still have a squad which is valued behind Tottenham? Is it because Rafa has spent badly? Well not according to his NET spend of £17m (approx) a season he hasn't, and as I've said he's earned more than he's lost through player sales.
    if you think for one second that Rafa could have done a better job whilst only spending £17m NET a season on players you are completely dillisional, I can't explain any more to the fools who consisently repeat "he's wasted money on players" because I've done it till I'm blue in the face, Ferguson has wasted a fortune on players that didn't cut the mustard but the difference is there has always been a fortune behind him to make amends.
    What are our biggest purchases?
    Johnson £17m
    Mascherano £18m
    Torres £23m
    Keane £19m
    Aquilani £20m
    Rafa has bought only TWO players that have breached the £20m mark, TWO! And that's in 5 years!
    Ferguson in recent years?
    Veron £28m (British transfer record)
    Ferdinand 29m (British transfer Record)
    Nani £17m
    Anderson £18m
    Carrick £18m
    Rooney £28m
    Berbatov £32m (British transfer Record - pre Robinho)
    van Nistelrooy £19m
    Hargreaves £20m
    Valencia £17m
    8 of those listed are still at the Club and have been purchased during or just prior to Rafa joining Liverpool. Where can I ask is Fergie's witch-hunt for a player who was constantly injured prior to joining United (Hargreaves) as we had with Aquilani for buying an "injury prone" player?
    They've recently bought Tosic from Partizan for a reported fee of £16m (eventually) and he's made 2 appearances! Does Rafa have the kind of financial backing to do the same?
    What people fail to realise is that success and money are comprehensively linked to a degree of 92%. Mark my words, Spurs and City will BOTH overtake us and soon unless we get some much needed investment through the door. </span>

    ReplyDelete
  112. You're way of the mark here Jaimie. The crux of your point is that Arsene has EARNED the right of time to build a team, because he has already won the title 3 times and come second a number of times. But Rafa hasn't so isn't allowed time. Absolute rubbish in my opinion.

    Arsene took over Arsenal in 1996, inheriting a team which included David Seaman, Tony Adams, Martin Keown, Nigel Winteburn, Lee Dixon, Steve Bould, Paul Merson, Ian Wright, Dennis Bergkamp, Ray Parlour. His title winning team of 1997/98 was pretty much already there and he added some new payers into the mix, Viera, Anelka, Overmars, Petit, Boa Morte. In 1997 he spent £17 million on players.

    Then its few years before they win the title again: 2001-02. Between titles he spends quite a lot of money; In 1999,approx £19m including the acquisition of Thierry Henry(£10.5m), 2000 approx £28m (incl. Wiltord £13m, Pires £6m, Lauren £7m) and in 2001 approximately £29m (incl. Van Bronckhurst £8.5, Jeffers £8m, Edu £6m, Richard Wright £6). So he spends quite a lot of money. But at the same time found some amazing players for very cheap.

    Since 2004 they've won nothing.

    Now look at Rafa's situation. Inherited a team which was not as good as the team Arsene inherited but in the first year gets us to the League Cup final and won the Champions League. Second season an FA Cup and improved our league position by 2 positions from 5th to 3rd (one point behind second place and with the highest total since 1988). So no titles, but did any reasonable Liverpool fan really expect league titles in his first few years?? I know i didn't.

    Even Arsene has said recently that Rafa should be given time to build so who are you to say otherwise.

    What's wrong with being patient? Ok so we finished 2nd last year and will be in a worse positon this year. In 2004-05 Arsenal finished 2nd and the following season finished 4th. Were Arsenal fans calling for Arsene's head? Since then their highest position is 3rd.

    Who's to say that Arsenal fans won't turn on Arsene if they finish with nothing again this season? After all he's had since 2004 to build a new team.

    If fans want to compare Rafa and Arsene's postions let them, why does it bother you? If you're making comparisons then you can only look at the time since Rafa has been here, and in that time, Rafa has won more than Arsene and has finished above him in the league 4 season out of 5.

    Its also quite pathetic that whenever someone disagree with you about Rafa, or says he should be given more time, you insinuate that they are part of the "Rafa is god" brigade.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Wenger HAS 'delivered' in the last 5 years. He's delivered a truly world class football stadium worth £400,000,000 pounds.

    Without that temporary burden (now it's a fantastic cash cow) he would have exposed Benitez's failings exponentially.

    BENITEZ WILL NEVER BE IN THE WENGER/FERGUSON/MOURINIO CLASS OF MANAGERS....YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELVES IF YOU THINK HE EVER WILL BE!!!

    ReplyDelete
  114. No, Gary.  I have not argued that Rafa 'isn't allowed time'. I'm advancing an argument as to why Benitez perhaps isn't given as much patience/Time as Wenger by fans/media etc.

    I love your selective, biased view of history.

    1. As others have argued in this thread, Arsenal were old and creaking when Wenger took over. In the seaosn before Wenger toook over, Arsenal finished 12th in the league.  Liverpool were always in the top 4 under Houllier (bar one season).

    2. Liverpool's squad and first team especially was as good as if not better than Arsenal's: Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Henchoz, Hyypia, Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock, Hamann etc - this is a bloody good group of players/squad players.  Yes there was some dross, but every team has dross. Benitez has his own Le tallecs and Dioufs right now.

    The only reason you and others say Wenger's team was better than what rafa inherited is because it fits your argument to say that.  Please explain, man for man, why you think it was better.

    3. The money issue a non-point. Wenger's net spend is and was far lower than Liverpool's.  Not that I subscribe to net spend as a valid theory, but everyone else does so I'll include it.

    4. I love the way you stop analysing Benitez's achievements after 2006.  Yes, we onw the CL in 2005, but Houllier's apparently poor squad had a lot to do with that.  Benitez may have got more out of certain players, but they so did Houllier, just not in his last two seasons.

    So we improved from 5th to 3rd in one season.  Big deal!  Rafa's first season in the league was an utter disgrace.  58 points and failure to qualify for the CL.  Only Graeme Souness has come close to that pitiful points total.

    And the team was better that 5th place that season - Benitez just blatantly and shamelessly prioritised the CL above everything else, and Liverpool's league form suffered.

    There was no way Liverpool could do worse than 58 points, so the improvement is mandatory, not something to be pround of. 

    Also, I see you faile to mention how in Rafa's third season we regressed again in the league, going from 82 points back down to 68.  Then, the season after that we regressed again in terms of league position, dropping from 3rd to 4th.

    Now, in his 6th season, despite showing some promise at the tail-end of last season, we've regressed again in the league.

    Wenger on the other has won three titles and finished 2nd on 5 separate occasions, which is proof that he has what it takes to win the league and build a league winning team.  Arsenal also play the best football around.

    And re your point about Arsenal dropping from 2nd in 2005 to 4th in 2006.  Arsenal fans didn't complain because they'd won three titles under Wenger already, and they had a team that went unbeated for an entire season!

    Can you not see the difference between Benitez and Wenger?!  if Liverpool had won a single title under Benitez and/or played the football Arsenal do, fans and the media would be far more patient.

    As it is, Benitez just repeats the same mistakes over and over again, and six years into his reign, Liverpool look further away than every than winning the league.  The team looked closed to putting in a challenge in Houllier's last season than they do at this moment.

    1 win in 9 games is not just a freak occurrence - it is 6 years of Benitez's failings coming home to roost.

    ReplyDelete
  115. As a United fan I pray every night that you lot keep falling for the 'King Rafa's New Clothes' trick for the next twenty years!

    Please never lose your blind faith and NEVER take of those rafa tinted specs!

    ReplyDelete
  116. Jaimie if you think you're an unbiased Editor I'd hate see what your take on a biased one is!

    "Rafa's first season in the league was an utter disgrace.  58 points and failure to qualify for the CL.  Only Graeme Souness has come close to that pitiful points total."

    WRONG.

    In Houllier's first season we finished on 54 points in 7th, in his LAST season we finished on 58 points and 4th, the difference is, with the additions of Alonso and Garcia but the loss of Owen, Benitez won the Champions League something Houllier never came close to achieving.

    Yes we finished 5th but we still managed to gain entry into the CL because we were the defending Champions.  I'd take 5th in the EPL and winning the biggest competition in World Football outside of the WC in a managers first season, I'd assume most fans would and infact, they did!

    Another point:

    "Liverpool's squad and first team especially was as good as if not better than Arsenal's: Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Henchoz, Hyypia, Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock, Hamann etc - this is a bloody good group of players/squad players."

    WHAT?! How wrong can you be?

    "As good if not better"

    So good that the SAME team minus Cisse (as if he was a HUGE loss) finished 32 points behind the then Champions (ARSENAL) in 2004!

    "The only reason you and others say Wenger's team was better than what rafa inherited is because it fits your argument to say that."

    NO JAIMIE, the only reason we say Wenger's team was better is because it WAS better and the League Table proved it, 32 points adrift on a "disgraceful" 58 points in comparison to Arsenal's 90.

    Sometimes I think you let your dislike for Rafa competely overrule your logical judgement.

    Wenger's team was a lot better than Rafa's at the time, Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Keown & Winterburn were the England back four & Keeper (minus Winterburn for Neville, but Winterburn certainly featured when Neville wasn't available)!

    As good as Hyypia and Henchoz were they were NOT as good as Carragher and Hyypia became once Carragher was switched to CB (by Benitez) on a permanent basis, which led to possibly Carragher's finest performance in a Liverpool shirt in Istanbul 2005.


    There are a significant number of factual errors you've made in this latest post Jaimie.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Jaimie if you think you're an unbiased Editor I'd hate see what your take on a biased one is!

    "Rafa's first season in the league was an utter disgrace.  58 points and failure to qualify for the CL.  Only Graeme Souness has come close to that pitiful points total."

    WRONG.

    In Houllier's first season we finished on 54 points in 7th, in his LAST season we finished on 58 points and 4th, the difference is, with the additions of Alonso and Garcia but the loss of Owen, Benitez won the Champions League something Houllier never came close to achieving.

    Yes we finished 5th but we still managed to gain entry into the CL because we were the defending Champions.  I'd take 5th in the EPL and winning the biggest competition in World Football outside of the WC in a managers first season, I'd assume most fans would and infact, they did!

    Another point:

    "Liverpool's squad and first team especially was as good as if not better than Arsenal's: Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Henchoz, Hyypia, Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock, Hamann etc - this is a bloody good group of players/squad players."

    WHAT?! How wrong can you be?

    "As good if not better"

    So good that the SAME team minus Cisse (as if he was a HUGE loss) finished 32 points behind the then Champions (ARSENAL) in 2004!

    "The only reason you and others say Wenger's team was better than what rafa inherited is because it fits your argument to say that."

    NO JAIMIE, the only reason we say Wenger's team was better is because it WAS better and the League Table proved it, 32 points adrift on a "disgraceful" 58 points in comparison to Arsenal's 90.

    Sometimes I think you let your dislike for Rafa competely overrule your logical judgement.

    Wenger's team was a lot better than Rafa's at the time, Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Keown & Winterburn were the England back four & Keeper (minus Winterburn for Neville, but Winterburn certainly featured when Neville wasn't available)!

    As good as Hyypia and Henchoz were they were NOT as good as Carragher and Hyypia became once Carragher was switched to CB (by Benitez) on a permanent basis, which led to possibly Carragher's finest performance in a Liverpool shirt in Istanbul 2005.


    There are a significant number of factual errors you've made in this latest post Jaimie.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Jaimie if you think you're an unbiased Editor I'd hate see what your take on a biased one is!

    "Rafa's first season in the league was an utter disgrace.  58 points and failure to qualify for the CL.  Only Graeme Souness has come close to that pitiful points total."

    WRONG.

    In Houllier's first season we finished on 54 points in 7th, in his LAST season we finished on 58 points and 4th, the difference is, with the additions of Alonso and Garcia but the loss of Owen, Benitez won the Champions League something Houllier never came close to achieving.

    Yes we finished 5th but we still managed to gain entry into the CL because we were the defending Champions.  I'd take 5th in the EPL and winning the biggest competition in World Football outside of the WC in a managers first season, I'd assume most fans would and infact, they did!

    Another point:

    "Liverpool's squad and first team especially was as good as if not better than Arsenal's: Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Henchoz, Hyypia, Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Baros, Cisse, Dudek, Warnock, Hamann etc - this is a bloody good group of players/squad players."

    WHAT?! How wrong can you be?

    "As good if not better"

    So good that the SAME team minus Cisse (as if he was a HUGE loss) finished 32 points behind the then Champions (ARSENAL) in 2004!

    "The only reason you and others say Wenger's team was better than what rafa inherited is because it fits your argument to say that."

    NO JAIMIE, the only reason we say Wenger's team was better is because it WAS better and the League Table proved it, 32 points adrift on a "disgraceful" 58 points in comparison to Arsenal's 90.

    Sometimes I think you let your dislike for Rafa competely overrule your logical judgement.

    Wenger's team was a lot better than Rafa's at the time, Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Keown & Winterburn were the England back four & Keeper (minus Winterburn for Neville, but Winterburn certainly featured when Neville wasn't available)!

    As good as Hyypia and Henchoz were they were NOT as good as Carragher and Hyypia became once Carragher was switched to CB (by Benitez) on a permanent basis, which led to possibly Carragher's finest performance in a Liverpool shirt in Istanbul 2005.


    There are a significant number of factual errors you've made in this latest post Jaimie.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Could I ask Jaimie why you allow RIVAL fans to open accounts on a LIVERPOOL forum and post derogatory remarks about our Club?

    I was under the impression this was a site for Liverpool fans, I don't want to read snide remarks from rival fans which you never seem to delete surprisingly!

    ReplyDelete
  120. 1. Houllier's first season on his own was 99-00.  It was Evans/Houllier together for the first few months of 98/99. Clearly, with two managers and lots of upheaval with Evans leaving, there was bound to be some fallout. In Houllier's first sole season, we finished with 67 points, only 6 points behind 2nd placed Arsenal.

    2. Liverpool finished with 60 points in Houllier's fina season, not 58.

    The rest of your post is just baseless generalisation.  Why was Henchoz/Hyypia not as good as Hyppia-Carragher?

    Wht was Wenger's team better than Rafa's?

    My argument is *man for Man* Liverpool under Houllier were on a par with Arsenal.

    And I've never said I'm an 'unbiased editor'.  Where do people get this crap?  No one is unbiased in football.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Oh I see, now who's disregarding facts in order to suit their argument! So we'll just write off Houllier's first season as manager because it disproves your theory?

    When Evans left we were just 7 point adrift of Arsenal on 16 points. By the end of the season that gap was 24 points with Arsenal finishing 2nd. When Houllier left, fine we finished on 60 points, still 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

    How can the rest of my post be "baseless generalisation" I've explained the reasons for my comments so they're anything but "baseless"!

    There is absolutely no way our squad in 2004 was as good as Arsenal, you're being completely blinkered by standing by your comment, plain stubborn. They went unbeaten for the ENTIRE season! Thumping us 4-2 and beating us 2-1, how the heck can you consider our team "as good if not better"!

    "My argument is *man for Man* Liverpool squad left by Houllier was on a par with Arsenal."

    Funniest thing I've read for a while. So we finish 30 points behind them, have a 42% win ratio for season, get beaten twice by them with ease, they go UNDEFEATED ALL SEASON and yet *man for man* our side was as good if not better?

    Let me remind you of their squad in 2004:

    Lehmann
    Taylor
    Lauren
    Keown
    Clichy
    Senderos
    Campbell
    Toure
    Cole
    Edu
    Parlour
    Silva
    Vieira
    Pires
    Ljungberg
    Reyes
    Wiltord
    Henry
    Bergkamp
    Kanu

    SIX of their players were in the PFA Team of the Year.

    As for the rest, it's a well known fact that Carragher/Hyypia leaked less goals than Henchoz/Hyypia, you can check at Statto.com to clarify if you like.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Oh I see, now who's disregarding facts in order to suit their argument! So we'll just write off Houllier's first season as manager because it disproves your theory?

    When Evans left we were just 7 point adrift of Arsenal on 16 points. By the end of the season that gap was 24 points with Arsenal finishing 2nd. When Houllier left, fine we finished on 60 points, still 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

    How can the rest of my post be "baseless generalisation" I've explained the reasons for my comments so they're anything but "baseless"!

    There is absolutely no way our squad in 2004 was as good as Arsenal, you're being completely blinkered by standing by your comment, plain stubborn. They went unbeaten for the ENTIRE season! Thumping us 4-2 and beating us 2-1, how the heck can you consider our team "as good if not better"!

    "My argument is *man for Man* Liverpool squad left by Houllier was on a par with Arsenal."

    Funniest thing I've read for a while. So we finish 30 points behind them, have a 42% win ratio for season, get beaten twice by them with ease, they go UNDEFEATED ALL SEASON and yet *man for man* our side was as good if not better?

    Let me remind you of their squad in 2004:

    Lehmann
    Taylor
    Lauren
    Keown
    Clichy
    Senderos
    Campbell
    Toure
    Cole
    Edu
    Parlour
    Silva
    Vieira
    Pires
    Ljungberg
    Reyes
    Wiltord
    Henry
    Bergkamp
    Kanu

    SIX of their players were in the PFA Team of the Year.

    As for the rest, it's a well known fact that Carragher/Hyypia leaked less goals than Henchoz/Hyypia, you can check at Statto.com to clarify if you like.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Oh I see, now who's disregarding facts in order to suit their argument! So we'll just write off Houllier's first season as manager because it disproves your theory?

    When Evans left we were just 7 point adrift of Arsenal on 16 points. By the end of the season that gap was 24 points with Arsenal finishing 2nd. When Houllier left, fine we finished on 60 points, still 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

    How can the rest of my post be "baseless generalisation" I've explained the reasons for my comments so they're anything but "baseless"!

    There is absolutely no way our squad in 2004 was as good as Arsenal, you're being completely blinkered by standing by your comment, plain stubborn. They went unbeaten for the ENTIRE season! Thumping us 4-2 and beating us 2-1, how the heck can you consider our team "as good if not better"!

    "My argument is *man for Man* Liverpool squad left by Houllier was on a par with Arsenal."

    Funniest thing I've read for a while. So we finish 30 points behind them, have a 42% win ratio for season, get beaten twice by them with ease, they go UNDEFEATED ALL SEASON and yet *man for man* our side was as good if not better?

    Let me remind you of their squad in 2004:

    Lehmann
    Taylor
    Lauren
    Keown
    Clichy
    Senderos
    Campbell
    Toure
    Cole
    Edu
    Parlour
    Silva
    Vieira
    Pires
    Ljungberg
    Reyes
    Wiltord
    Henry
    Bergkamp
    Kanu

    SIX of their players were in the PFA Team of the Year.

    As for the rest, it's a well known fact that Carragher/Hyypia leaked less goals than Henchoz/Hyypia, you can check at Statto.com to clarify if you like.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Oh I see, now who's disregarding facts in order to suit their argument! So we'll just write off Houllier's first season as manager because it disproves your theory?

    When Evans left we were just 7 point adrift of Arsenal on 16 points. By the end of the season that gap was 24 points with Arsenal finishing 2nd. When Houllier left, fine we finished on 60 points, still 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

    How can the rest of my post be "baseless generalisation" I've explained the reasons for my comments so they're anything but "baseless"!

    There is absolutely no way our squad in 2004 was as good as Arsenal, you're being completely blinkered by standing by your comment, plain stubborn. They went unbeaten for the ENTIRE season! Thumping us 4-2 and beating us 2-1, how the heck can you consider our team "as good if not better"!

    "My argument is *man for Man* Liverpool squad left by Houllier was on a par with Arsenal."

    Funniest thing I've read for a while. So we finish 30 points behind them, have a 42% win ratio for season, get beaten twice by them with ease, they go UNDEFEATED ALL SEASON and yet *man for man* our side was as good if not better?

    Let me remind you of their squad in 2004:

    Lehmann
    Taylor
    Lauren
    Keown
    Clichy
    Senderos
    Campbell
    Toure
    Cole
    Edu
    Parlour
    Silva
    Vieira
    Pires
    Ljungberg
    Reyes
    Wiltord
    Henry
    Bergkamp
    Kanu

    SIX of their players were in the PFA Team of the Year.

    As for the rest, it's a well known fact that Carragher/Hyypia leaked less goals than Henchoz/Hyypia, you can check at Statto.com to clarify if you like.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Well, Kanwar has a point. And Jim's comparison of Arsenal's squad inherited by Wenger vs Liverpool's squad inherited by Rafa proved that point. Why didn't he point out the internationals Rafa inherited?

    Dudek - Polish international
    Henchoz - Swiss international
    Finnan - Republic Ireland international
    Riise - Norway international
    Carra - England international
    Hyppia - Finnish international
    Murphy - England international
    Gerrard - England international
    Hamann - German international, Euro winner
    Smicer- Czech international
    Baros - Czech international
    Kewell - Australian international
    Cisse - France international

    ReplyDelete
  126. Fair point. People seemed to forget before Chelsea, there was Leeds United that splashed cash like nobody business too... 

    ReplyDelete
  127. Funny how this net spending excuse comes about. If that is the case, Houllier's net spend is about 15 mils per season or thereabout. Now, now, does that mean it was wrong to call for Houllier's head back then? 

    ReplyDelete
  128. Selective representation Jaimie! Why don't you reply to one of the views that puts your article in its deserved place instead of nitpicking silly arguments!
    Hypocrite!

    ReplyDelete
  129. Don't bother arguing with this self-styled macho writer. He can do no wrong. While Benitez is stubborn and this and that, here' s person who sees no wrong in himself and gets defensive immediately when one points out something.

    Look at the mirror, Jaimie. Look at yourself deeply and see what you really are!

    ReplyDelete
  130. <span><span>I'm Starting With The Man In
    The Mirror
    (Ooh!)
    I'm Asking Him To Change
    His Ways
    (Ooh!)
    And No Message Could Have
    Been Any Clearer
    If You Wanna Make The World
    A Better Place
    (If You Wanna Make The
    World A Better Place)
    Take A Look At Yourself And
    Then Make A Change
    (Take A Look At Yourself And
    Then Make A Change)</span></span>

    ReplyDelete
  131. Then why don't you shut your trap and wait until the end of the season!?
    (Instead of writing ridiculous articles like this...) It is you who is blinkered and can't see the goodness that Rafa has brought to the club. MON, my foot!

    ReplyDelete
  132. Come on Jaimie show some respect to the man
    1. Who won so many League titles with an unfancied Valencia
    2. who won the champions league in his first season at liverpool and won the FA Cup the next year.
    3. Last season proved he has what it takes to one day win the Premier League for Liverpool.

    Just Stop With The Negativity already.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Liverpool doesn't need fans like you. I thought Liverpool fans were supposed to be loyal. <span>SUPPORT YOUR CLUB OR STOP CALLING YOURSELF A FAN</span>. And for the love of GOD stop posting negative articles.

    ReplyDelete
  134. I know this discussion is over and I wasn't going to bother responding a week later but I feel the need to respond to as there are so many mistakes in your response.
    Firstly, it is not selective or biased view of history. Your point is that Arsene can be afforded more time because of his previous successes. So i wrote about the 3 years he won the league, and I made some sort of comparison to the two years Rafa won something. I selected those years because those are the important years according to your view that winning things afford you more time.
    Arsene inherited an "old and creaking" squad. That's a ridiculous statement. Nine of the players he inherited were all integral players in the first team squad that won the league in 98; Seaman, Adams, Dixon, Winterburn, Keown, Bould, Wright, Parlour, Bergkamp. When they won the league again in 2001-02 six of these players were still an integral part of the team.
    It is impossible to compare the two teams that both managers inherited on a man to man basis. It's purely subjective and carries no substance. But the reason I say that Arsene inherited a better squad is not because it conveniently fits into my argument but because he was able to win the league with nine players that he'd inherited still in the first team squad. They were major players who played week in week out. Arsene brought in a new regime, new diets, a new way of playing the game and some new players but he already had the spine of the team in place; nine players! That is an irrefutable fact. That is why we say that the squad Rafa inherited was not as good. The two years prior to Rafa, we'd finished 5th and 4th. In Rafa's first season we finished 5th again. What this says to me is that we had a team good enough to finish in 4th or 5th place, and not better. He obviously felt that he needed to make changes and the following year we improved and finished 3rd.
    This leads me nicely on to another point: it is a big deal that we improved from 5th to 3rd. Not only did we jump two league positions but we also amassed 24 more points. That is a significant improvement. You state that this improvement is mandatory. Why is it? According to who? We had a squad which for 3 years finished in 4th or 5th place. That's where we were in the league, we weren't better than that position, so why do you expect a mandatory improvement?

    "Rafa's first season was an utter disgrace. 58 points and failure to qaulify for the CL. Only Grame Souness has come close to that pitiful points total"
    You don't seem to know in your own mind what is more important; league position or points totals. You can look at either and make a case, but you seem to choose one or the other for the benefit of your argument. For example in 2007-08 we finished in 4th but had 76 points. In 2006-07 we finished 3rd and finished with 68 points. Which is better? You say Rafa's first season was the worst since Graeme Souness. Are you talking about league positon or points amassed? If it is league position then 2002-03 was as bad. If it is point amassed then 2003-04 was as bad as we only had 58 points but finished 4th. You need to make up your mind; what's more important league position or points amassed. You can't use both. What most fans look at is league position. In98-99 we finished with 54 points and finished 7th. You say that doesn't count because we had two managers? Why doesn't it count? Because it doesn't fit in with your argument? Utterly ridiculous.
    Arsenal didn't finish 12th the year before Arsene took over. In George Graham's last season they finished 12th, hen Rioch took over and they finished 5th. Arsene took over and took them to 3rd. Arsene's improvement doesn't look so good with the actual facts in place; 5th to 3rd not 12th to 3rd.
    (cont) 

    ReplyDelete
  135. Just because Arsene has won the league it doesn't mean he should be afforded more time. In fact if i was an Arsenal fan or Arsene's employer I would be wondering why he has steadily got worse since 2004 rather than better. How is it he had a league winning squad but in sine 2004 he hasn't been able to win anything since and finished no better than 3rd. If Arsenal finish this season with no trophies again I can guarantee you that Arsenal fans will be questioning Arsene. Fans are only sentimental for so long. Mostly they are fickle and want success. They don't support Arsene they support Arsenal, and if Arsene doesn't begin to deliver this season they will begin to run out of patience. They like the pretty football but older Arsenal fans were just as happy in the late 80s and 90s when it was boring boring Arsenal and they were winning things.
    I'm a sensible Liverpool fan. I want success but I don't expect it. We are a better team than we were five years ago. I am happy to give him more time and see if he can improve. If we have a another poor season next year I'll reconsider my views,
    At the end of the day if Liverpool fans want to compare Rafa and Arsene let them, why does it bother you so much. If you are going to compare them then you can only compare the last five years, anything prior to that doesn't matter as Rafa wasn't at Liverpool, and in those 5 years Rafa has been more successful than Arsene, better league positon in 3 out of 5 season, won an FA Cup, won the CL (which Arsene hasn;t managed to do yet in 13 years at Arsenal), another CL final

    ReplyDelete
  136. JAMIE..DONT BE SILLY....PLEASE MAKE US PROUD WITH RAFA...IF WE SACK RAFA...WHO IS GOING TO REPLACE HIM...HIDDINK IS IT HE WIN THE EUROPA LEAGUE,IS IT SOUTH KOREA WIN THE WORLD CUP...SOUTH KOREA SHOWS THAT THEY HAVE TRUE SPIRIT...DO YOU THINK KOREA WILL GO TO SEMIS NEXT ....DREAM ON JAMIE...IN RAWA WE TRUST

    ReplyDelete
  137. <span>"refusal to do the obvious things re formation/where players play etc."</span>

    Obvious in whose mind exactly? From a fan? Or from someone in the inner sanctum who sees the players train on a daily basis and has a much better knowledge of the individual and collective strengths and weaknesses of the team? Citing your opinion is one thing, but blatantly accusing Benitez of making mistakes that led to us not winning the title is not on. 

    ReplyDelete
  138. The net spend is relevant as it shows the amount Benitez has spent from his own fundings, not from funding by the owners. Thus, SPENDING is quite different from FUNDING, yet the two are mistakenly used interchangeably. Rafa has not been given the funds by the club since he has taken charge to compete with the likes of United and Chelski in the transfer market. Hence he has had to fund player acquisitions himself.

    For example, lets say Rafa wanted to sign a 20 mil rated player in 2006 but was only given 10 mil by the club. Without including any more variables into the equation, Benitez has 2 choices:
    1. Buy someone cheaper instead
    2. Buy another player in the mean time and upsell at a later date

    Using option 2, Lets say a 10 mil rated player is bought, and in 2 years time is worth 25 mil. Lets also assume that the original target is also worth 25 mil after 2 years. Without taking into account things like 'why sell a player who has increased in value so much', assume that Benitez sells player 2 for 25 mil and buys player 1 for 25 mil.

    Gross spend = 35 mil
    Net spend = 10 mil
    Hence the amount of funding given to Rafa is the initial 10 mil, which was not enough to originally purchase the 20 mil target.

    From a business perspective (a football club is a business) gross spend is not as important as the net amount. Why? Because it doesn't say anything about the return on investment, which is one one the key elements of any successful organisation. 

    ReplyDelete
  139. Manu won cuz they had money just like chelsea!!!

    ReplyDelete