10 Nov 2009

David N’Gog’s dive was a disgrace, but Liverpool fans deserve the harshest criticism

There are no two ways about it: David N’gog deliberately deceived the referee to win a penalty. There was no contact, no hint of a foul and no reason to go down. It was cheating, pure and simple. I don’t blame N’gog though; I blame (a)pathetic Liverpool fans who are happy to condone cheating if it gains the team an advantage.

I feel sick after watching N’gog cheat to save the game for Liverpool. I guess that makes me less of a fan though because according to some enlightened fans, it’s okay to cheat when Liverpool are desperate/need a win/need some luck/insert spurious reason here.

Having scanned a few LFC ‘fan’ boards, here are a some examples of the kind of delusional reasoning and cretinous rationalizations common amongst (what seems to be) a growing section of Liverpool fans:


Gerry_A_Trick - 'You make a tackle like that in the box and don't make contact with the ball, you've got to expect to give away a penalty. About time we got a bit of luck anyway'.

LadyRed - 'I'm proud of Ngog, his team were desperate and he stepped up. It's okay to dive when your team's desperate'.

Brendan - 'Not a penalty, who cares, 2-2'

The Bunnyman
- 'I don't like cheating either... but needs must'.

Rafa4pm - 'I'm just gutted he didn't manage to dive for a second pen'.

Keniget - 'I don't think anyone is genuinely proud of our players diving, but tonight is really a perfect example of a situation in which all morals have to be put to one side. It was a great run, N'Gog spotted an opportunity and made it look good. The club is in the shit and whilst a draw is bad, a loss would've been even worse - he stepped up and I'm glad he did'.


Red Reid
- 'Stop being so high and mighty! Lets face it diving’s part of the game if you can use it to get ahead y not the other team will do it to you! when the prem cut it out with vide replays thts fair enought but for now. i say well done lad at least u saved us a point'.

Hope in your heart - 'Look at that piece of action again, and you'll see that he jumps, yes, but only to avoid Carsley's tackle who was coming in with absolutely no chance to touch the ball. This penalty isn't lucky. It's a stone-wall penalty!'

Geraint - 'All the indignation about diving. I say if they are going to keep letting Dogba and C Ronaldo get away with it then I dont mind if we get some penalties too'.

- 'N'Gog winning the penalty with a dive, should we be annoyed with him? Certainly not. He had the desire to win at any cost. I wish the rest of them had the same mentality'


- 'Normally i'd be appalled by that dive, but we're so desperate for a result right now i couldn't care less'.

StevienNando - 'Great performance. dont care about the dive, im sorry but we deserved that bit of rub of the green today'.


Gareth - 'Dodgy dive. Will get pilloried. Who cares?'

Illmatic - 'As for the dive well I couldnt give a monkeys that he conned the ref given our luck at the moment'.

Brunny - 'To tell you the truth. While the law is as it is, and with all the diving the Birmingham players were doing claiming late challenged, and the diving in the rest of the prem. It is well worth a try. The rest of the league do it and maybe get a yellow, but that is the risk. The amount of time yossi gets into the box and someone sticks a leg out then straddles it pisses me off. Just go over it and its a goal'.

You get the picture. Check out any Liverpool fan forum across the net and you will ignorant comments like this. In many cases, you'll also find that anyone who dares to suggest that perhaps diving is wrong will usually be labeled as ‘uptight’ or ‘on their high horse’ or ‘sanctimonious’.

What kind of a freakish, regressive world do we live in where cheating is accepted/encouraged and those that speak out against it are in the wrong?!

The funniest thing is the hypocrisy of these so-called ‘fans - at some point in the past they will have been foaming at the mouth because of a Ronaldo or Drogba dive, but as soon as a Liverpool player dives and gains a welcome advantage it suddenly becomes okay!

Fans who hold these ignorant views are an embarrassment. You don’t ‘support’ the club by accepting and encouraging cheating because it has the opposite effect – over time, such apathy will sully the name and integrity of the club.

Do we really want to become known as a club where cheating is encouraged and accepted?!

Every fan has a duty to criticize ignorant ‘fans’ who hold repellant views along the lines of the above. Every fan has a duty to preserve the integrity of the club by shouting down these ethically challenged idiots.

And if you want another example of what 'real' fans think about diving, take a look at this video clip, where fans on the Kop actually encourage Gerrard to dive.

At one point, you can clearly here someone say 'You should have dived there Stevie and won a penalty':

This is, unfortunately, the reality, not just of Liverpool fans but of many fans in general: They are happy to accept diving and cheating if it gives their team some kind of advantage.

It is NEVER acceptable to cheat in football. I used to be in the majority with that view but it seems I am increasingly in the minority.

How depressing is that?


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  1. Jaimie, you are always going to find people like these at every club. And I was on the RAWK forums, and surprisingly, I found that most people did accept that it was a dive, and didn't condone it, so you have to be fair to them as well. Apart from that horrendous dive, that N'Gog kid looks good.

  2. Admirable, Jaimie. I felt the same way after Obertan went and kicked a player off the ball during the Moscow game last week. Not enough other United fans were outraged about it; some actually laughed. 

    Depressing stuff.

  3. Agree with you for once...

  4. Hi all, Arsenal fan here.  Hope you don'y mind me making a point about diving, the lad will get buried for diving because he's not English.  Not condoning it, but cast your mind back to when Eduardo took a tumble against Celtic, the media reaction was furious.  Then compare it to Darren Bent's dive against the spuds on Saturday, hardly had a mention.
    I'm convinced the English media are more than happy to ignore the problem when it involves a home-grown player, the double-standard is shocking.

  5. Don't worry, you'll come to your sense by tomorrow.

  6. Hi Pat - I think you'll be proved right.  The latent xenophobia in the media will rear its ugky head again tomorrow but the likes of Rooney and Bent will continue to get away with a light slap on the wrist from the press.

  7. First up, was I dissapointed that NGog clearly dived to win a pen? Course I was, and my first reaction was "hell yeah, that's clearly a dive". My second reaction was "Fuck it, I'll take it though". We absolutely pissed all over Birmingham this game and were due a bit of 'luck'.

    Perhaps that puts me in what you class as 'embarrasing Liverpool fans' Jamie. However there is no point whatsoever in jumping on some sort of purist soap box on the matter, as it happens week in week out and like it or not, it's part of football. I don't condone it or encourage it, but so frikkin what if we win a pen through a dodgy dive every now and then, if our main rivals do the same.

    I'm dissapointed (though not surprised) that you decided to jump on this immediately after the game despite a swathe of other positives that could have been discussed. Make no mistake about it, the tabloids and cheap hick media will be doing this tomorrow, so once again you are placing yourselves firmly in their camp, while masquerading as 'critical' and 'realist'.

    A few more articles like the Torres vs. Rooney one please, your one-eyed coverage is undoubtedly costing you more readers than it's bringing in.

  8. You like controversy don't you?  ;)

    I'll just point out (I'm posting under Maulkin at This is Anfield) that there are fans happy with cheating, but your article could make people think all or the majority (as you use the word "common") of the online communities do not condone diving. And that's no the truth !

  9. it is part of football everything has been going against us ... Just say the beachball that was illegal !!! referee never done anything, lisandro last minute :(  so we deserved abit of luck we HAMMERED them and deserved a stroke of luck after the luck going against us !!!

  10. just got home from the game jamie and i was gutted to read the lad took a dive, from where we were it looked like a definite pen but clearly not.

    very dissapointing,it cant ever be condoned.

  11. Redlester - I couldn't care less if I lose readers.  I'm not doing this to be popular.  If people don't want to visit the site that's fine by me.

    Why should I not raise this issue after the game?  It's very important if you ask me.  Yes, there were positives, but this is more important in my view becuase it is a growing sickness in the game that needs to be addressed.

    And I love the way you try and make out that just because I raise the issue I have a tabloid sensibility.  What nonsense! I guess if I only publish positive stuff and ignore the tough issues I'll be more well liked?

    To be honest, to hell with that!

    I'd rather be disliked for being honest than loved for being part of the blind-faith 'yes-man' brigade

  12. Jamie , thanks for your common sense comments, most teams seem to have problems in having a diving player . Its difficult to see how things can be changed unless TV slo mo is used like in other sports and many angles can be covered. This would help make up for any poor positioning by refs or their assistants, and indeed stop some of the 'blind side' issues which can occur like in the Chelsea man u match

    Doug  - QPR fan

  13. I don't see any fans on TIA challenging those who hold the 'cheating is okay' view.  They all just pas by and say nothing.

  14. I didn't think of that.  It was okay to dive because we 'deserved a stroke of luck'.  You're right. My mistake.

  15. I have a problem with diving, although I've made my peace with it -- it's the bitter part of the package that is football. My take on it is this: I want the media to treat thuggish tackling as an equally bad offence as diving. According to popular notions, diving is a foreign vice -- ie, non-English -- and hence worthy of hammering, yet, you allow the likes of Robbie Savage flourish in the game (calling it 'passionate play').

    If anything diving cons the referee, whereas thuggish play can hurt players and end careers.

    Until the media treats both offences equally I don't think either side deserves a moral high ground over diving.

    [Personally I don't condone both forms of offences]

  16. Well have a read of tomorrow's papers and let's see how fervently they focus on NGog's dive rather than our attacking prowess, and we'll see how different to them you really are.

    Most of the post-match analysis was focused on this, as will be most of the media reports. Fine, he dived, it's bad, we want to see less of this in football, but don't you think the average fan would like to know a bit more about the game and the performances of the other players once this obvious point has been raised?

    You're not disliked for being honest, you're disliked for always preferring to focus on the most negative aspects of the club you can dream up (honest or not).

    What do you really expect to be the response to an article like this? For Liverpool fans to boycott games until NGog is taken out into the streets and shot? An SOS style march before our next game to petition for him to be sold? No, all you’re going to get is people writing comments like mine criticising your negative outlook on LFC, which is not ‘stirring interesting discussion’ as you like to put it, it’s simply exploiting the emotions of real fans who like to stick up for their club through thick and thin by winding them up.

    You seem like a relatively intelligent guy (though slightly bitter and deluded perhaps) so I don’t think you’re really kidding yourself into thinking you’re digging up genuinely interesting subject matter with this sort of material.

    However, there’s only so many times you can credit someone for being brave enough to get back up again after being repeatedly kicked in the balls before you start wondering if they’re actually a few slices short of a loaf.

  17. Liverpool deserved to win by a country mile and played some great stuff during the game.
    As for the penalty, we have had some horrendous decisions against us this season so it's about time we had one in our favour.
    As for Jaimie's article yet again he makes a point of deliberately choosing comments to back up his stance yet fails to balance the argument with lots of other comments that go against him.
    Objective writing is all about giving the differing points of view  or facts then allowing the reader to draw their own conclusion not as you always do Jaimie give a one sided debate. Maybe you should consider yourself to be David Dimbleby on Question Time where he ensures all points of view are covered and allows the audience to draw their own balanced informed decisions rather than blatantly shoving his own skewed view onto them.

  18. It's never good to dive or cheat in anyway but poor referee decisions have cheated Liverpool out of many points this season already.
    Besides Ngog is a very young inexperienced lad who has been thrown in at the deep end to fill Torres' boots, overall he had a good game and scored a great goal. I can think of many experienced pro's who would after a mazy run and entering the box at pace would have done exactly the same thing.

  19. Redlester

    1. Every site under the sun will be doing a match report.  I don't see the point, which is why this site doesn't do match reports.  Instead, I and other writers focus on specific instances during games.

    2. Whether I'm disliked for whatever reason makes no difference to me. 

    3. Reponse to this article? I'm not looking for a specific response.  People will make up their own minds.  I'm just raising the issue yet again that football fans who accept diving are a problem for the game.

    In any event, I think it's clear that this article is not about Ngog per se - I could've written an article simply slating him but I didn't.  I only mention it in the first paragraph and spend the rest of the article having a go at a specifric group of Liverpool fans.  That is what this article is really all about: the disturbing apathy of fans and how standards are slowly being eroded. Ngog's dive just gave me an excuse to raise this issue again.The reaction of the fans bothers me more than the dive itself.

    4. You seem to be another person who jumps on the 'but you only post negative stuff' bandwagon.  It's blatantly not true, and if you click the POSITIVE ARTICLES link in the label could you'll see that that is true.

    But it wouldn't fit with your argument to acknowledge that, would it ;)

  20. Mike - this is not the BBC - I do not have to be objective about everything, nor do I hold myself out as such.  This is predominantly an opinion site. Furthermore, no football fan or writer is truly objecitve.  it is an impossiblilty.

    Yes, I have an agenda for certain things, but so does every other fan on the planet, whether they're talkoing about football or writing about it!  We lal have our core beliefs/favourites etc. Even you.

  21. Good points, Red Ranter - I agree that thuggish tackling should be an equally bad offence. However, whilst football is run by the incompetent buffoons at the FA and UEFA, nothing is every going to change.

  22. Arsenal fan here, i was listening to the game and watched replays when i got back. I have to raise the eduardo situation as I am positive that there would have been some Liverpool fans against what he did but are happy to let it go because they needed a bit of luck. As far as Liverpools attacking prowess was concerned. With that much possesion and shots on goal it should have been 4-0 reds not penalty to draw 2-2. Thats not attacking prowess.

  23. There is always the challenge of context - ie. there always seems to be big expectations for Liverpool , its almost a legacy problem which Liverpool have and it ends up being like carrying an extra load (of expectation) all the time. So I'm saying there is such an inate drive form fans willing their team on , that almost win at any/ all costs is nearly always going to be around.,
    So its optimism always trying to suppress reality where a stronger squad is needed

  24. I won't go into this too much as it's late, so I'll attempt to defend your accusations thus:

    Find another Liverpool site, blog, fanzine or anything that covers the club in any fashion, that has as many people responding to articles accusing the author of being negative as frequently as this one, and I will yield to your attempts to prove that you are not a negative writer.

    Bury your head in the sand and try and pretend otherwise if you like, but, as they say, the masses have spoken.

    And it's goodnight from me.

  25. Agreed, Jaimie. I think the xenophobia also extends to managers. Look at the treatment Avram Grant, then Scolari and Wenger last year, and now Benitez are getting from the media and compare it to what Allardyce, Megson, Good Ole 'Arry and Mark Hughes get despite being crap for so long. Also, no one in the media said anything about Ferguson's rant against the ref yesterday. 

  26. Quite, but as an Arsenal fan you should surely agree that your club's 'attacking prowess' is second to none. And yet how often have you totally dominated teams without being able to finish them off.

    Pot, kettle and black.

  27. The ifs and buts make me laugh - but not in a good way. What if Ngog didn't dive, and we scored from the ensuing corner-kick? What if we'd actually lost the match, we wouldn't be talking about the negativity of the unjust penalty claim, we'd be looking at the positives of how well we played. I'd rather that latter to be honest.

    It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, when we gain an unfair advantage from cheating; it doesn't feel like we faught the good fight.

    It's very important to me how I enjoy and experience our games. When all the talk is about an obvious dive, the full good is taken out of it for me. Diving is nothing to be proud of - losing fair is.

  28. Why now? Gerrard has been diving for years (& he dived tonight too) without a word of criticism.

    It's only when a non-english player does it that the media go mental about it.

  29. Without a word of criticism?  I have criticised Gerrard's diving many times before on this site. And recently, I had a series named 'Football Cheats', which not only featured Gerrard but had 4 Wayne Rooney dives in the 20 I looked at:


  30. Liverpool fan here. My first reaction was, what a shocker! That was very disappointing. At first i thought the referee was going to yellow card Ngog because Yossi turned around in shock or so it seemed. I think, it would have been better had the referee yellow carded Ngog instead of awarding the penalty. This, in itself, would have aleviated some of the negative press which i am sure is heading Ngog way tomorrow. That being said, the officials should have been able to spot this, but considering officials these days cant even spot a ninja kick, what hope did Ngog have of being seen diving.

    Besides the shocker of a dive worthy of an amateur, Ngog seems to be one of the centre forwards that you know are going to be relatively good. I say relatively good as he is still to have more playing time and i do think he will get better.

  31. apologies, I wasn't directing criticism at you at all. I just think the media are shamelessly hypocritical to go ape at n'gog like this when Gerrard's antics over the years are portrayed in a different light.

  32. Agreed Jamie. Well said Pat. They make it big only when a non-english player is involved. Drogba,Bosingwa were banned in UCL for ref rant . But, see how tht scum Rooney escapes from FA for a similar rant.

  33. Agreed Jamie. Well said Pat. They make it big only when a non-english player is involved. Drogba,Bosingwa were banned in UCL for ref rant . But, see how tht scum Rooney escapes from FA for a similar rant.

  34. Lad was honest enough and so was Rafa to say that maybe it wasn't a pen. Only positive in that incident I guess.

  35. Jaimie i didn't see the match and haven't seen the incident so can't in honesty discuss Ngog. But I agree with you on the general point that it's never acceptable to cheat or condone cheating. It doesn't matter if it secures a point which helps win the league or stops a club from being relegated.

  36. What kind of shit do you read? Nobody said anythign about Fergie's rant about the ref?? What you meant to say is, "Nobody said anything I LIKE about Fergie's rant". You are pathetic.

  37. Jamie, you are one of the few Liverpool fans that make me still have respect of Liverpool as one our main rivals. You are not just writing stuff to support Liverpool. You are honest when Liverpool have a problem, and you praise when it's due. In fact, even though some would say that you criticise more than you praise, but to hell with them if they only 'see' what they want. If you were 10 points clear at the top, then these buffoons who accuse you might have a point - but the fact is you are not in a good position, and you are just pointing that out in the hope that someone will do something and turn things around. For that, I will say Well done and keep up the good work.

    Other than that, in the spirit of true 'rivalry', I hope Liverpool keep suffering so we can have more ammunition in our 'discussions' :D

  38. Its funny how everyone has just decided in a flash that he dived!?
    Yes there was NO contact, but obviously he saw the tackle coming in and took evasive action....
    If he left his trailing leg to make contact, which he could very easily have done... Then it was a dead cert penalty by the book and you would be writting how much we actually paid for the tea lady..., but in my book thats more of a dive than what he did....
    hes young, he will learn to leave his trailing leg to get caught, just like gerrard did in istanbul :)
    i suggest you watch it again jamie....
    Seems like your degree qualifies you to judge everything negative about Lfc, with the positive article thrown in just to remind us your not a total manc...
    By the way guys i thought ngogs goal was a cracker, along with rest of his all rnd play we may have a mini- torres in the making.....
    Well spotted rafa...
    What did he cost us again??
    Why wonder im sure jamie knows.....

  39. The way to go Jaimie, I like your article and honest opinion. Luckily it just a game of football where people willing to trade their integrity for the self gratification of not loosing, or gain that extra one point. I'm sure they will be more level headed when dealing with bigger things in life... no cheating please even if it cause you the title, but then again what title?

  40. HI Jamie,
    I agree its not good to dive. Its really disapointing when a player dives and u get robbed of your 3 points. As fans we all hate it when it hapns against you. Remeber few seasons ago how Maluda went over the top inside liverpool area and got a penalty. It also can be branded a dive. And this weekedn Daren Bent, was there contact at all. David Ngog did the same, he played for the penalty.
    Andy Gray once said , if you go to ground and you don’t win the ball, you’re in trouble. What if Ngog didnt dive and continued his run? He would sure have got couaght and brought down, might even get injured. May be he jumped and wnet ot ground cos he didnt want to feel that tackle? Maybe. In more than one ocation liverpool were robed of three points too by such decisions. But by no means diving is encouraged.
    Imagine if you were the 20 year old Ngog in that situation. You got half a second to make your dessicion? What wil you do? 99% of th time you wil be playin for the penalty too. So lay off the kid. He is no torres but he showed he can be as good as a replacement when needed.

  41. To be honest, we should have won the game and we did more than enough to win it so i got no complaints in terms of effort. And to draw this game at home might sound like 2 points dropped but compared to MU-Sunderland, this is the least we deserved. The FA is responsible for cleaning up thier own act in order for 'mistakes' (if this was 1 of them) like this don't happen in the game. Add in the video evidence or immediate reply and the game will clean up on its own. This seasons biggest jokes have been invisible goals, beach ball goals and 'unfair' penalties.
            Another thing that i would like to bring up is the amount of negative publicity Liv gets when where are missing more than half of the first team and more players keep getting injured. It really surprised me yesterday that a team that was so physical and was kicking Liverpool players all around the field manage to score their first goal from a resulting 'fault' by a Liv player (yes, Lucas again but thats for another time). However freekics were we given in such situation? Not to mention against a team that was defending with almost 9 men in their own half. Actually, the team in total is doing a good job. We are 12 games into the season and trailing Man U by 2 wins and they have a full team. Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way, doesn't it?

  42. I love the fact that everyone thinks we hammered them, 7 shots on target from 76% ish possesion, thats pathetic, never in the history of LFC have we had to put up with such a lack luster forward line that boasts the capabilities of F All. Granted Ngog looks a prospect and Torres is one of the worlds best strikers, after that there is nothing.

    How the hell is this clown still manager of Liverpool

  43. To be fair, we dive plenty, lucas does frequently and so does masch. The difference is we got a pen. So dont act like its a big thing now since we've always done it. Gerrard got a pen in the champs final via a dive also. Greatest comeback ever was with the help of a dive. 

  44. I totally agree - there is one rule England's 'star players' and another for non-english players.

  45. A right and proper article, but I'm afraid a dying breed. Such is the intensity and desperation to win among fans that it is becoming more regular. I do think, however, there is something more sanctimonious about Liverpool fans doing it as they usually take the high ground in thee matters. Drogba is tolerated at Chelsea because he is effective. Not loved. Another good point was that English players are spared. None more so than when Michael Owen, while being a Liverpool player, deliberately and wilfully dived and cheated the referee in the 2002 World Cup against Argentina, winning a penalty. It was virtually ognored and laughed over by players, pundits, press and fans. Steven Gerrard also won a similar penalty, even though the opponent threw himself into the challenge. That level of sanctimonious behaviour has always been there in team England so why be surprised it surfaces in the club. So much for a British sense of fair play. 

  46. i agree with you over the dive but what worries me more is benitez s blatent bias over kuyt what has he got to do to be taken off
    a lot of fans myself included have been calling for the head of lucas
    but last night especially in the second half he really had a go and i applaud him for that  kut on the other hand was very poor so what happens the baffeler subs lucas
                            kuyt week in week out gives his all for the red shirt
    and a lot of players should follow his example but he has no first touch no speed and cant pass and dont forget we paid 10 million for him to score goals

  47. having just seen this - okay there was no contact, but ngog had to jump out of the way or get a possible ankle injury, this isnt as bad as the media is making out, it would have been a foul in the middle of the park.
    so i can see why the pen was given. end of story.

  48. We didn't deserve the penalty for the N'gog challenge but...had N'gog stayed on his feet he would have surely been clattered by Carsley and quite possibly injured from what was going to be a thunderous challenge. I don't like to see diving and I think had N'gog had stayed on his feet it would have been a penalty anyway, even so it's about time a little luck came our way aswe've certainly had poor luck in past games this season.

    You could also argue Jaimie we deserved a further penalty for the foul on Kuyt as he went to shoot.

  49. Its unfortunate that this dive is going to take away from Ngog's performance yesterday. I thought that in the first half he was very good and it was a very good goal.

    Rather than talk about the dive, I'd like to talk about the game. Talking about the dive is what Talksport will do, and what the tabloids will do. Ngog will quite rightly be chastisted for it. It is cheating but unfortunately this sort of "simulation" has become part of the game. Bent did it the other day, Drogba does it, and Rooney has done it often, Gerrard has done it. I think we've come to the stage now where there is very little that can be done with it. In Spain it is part of the game. Its seen as a way to get an advantage and con a referee. May be we just have to get used to the idea of it happening here.

    I was shocked and infuriated that we didn't win last night. We completely controlled the first 30 minutes, their goals came out of nothing, I can guarantee you Jerome will not score a better goal in his whole footballing career.

    How can a defence that has worked so well in previous years now be leaking goals. It can only be down to the instability we've had in our defence this season. In 16 PL and CL games this season we have played 9 different line up in defence. This cannot help anyone. Any top side will have the same back four whenever possible. The other problem seems to be that the fullbacks and in particular Johnson are still getting used to the system. In a number of goals conceded this year it has been Glen Johnson who has been in the wrong position or playing the opponent on side. This is not a dig at Glen Johnson as on the whole yesterday I thought he was excellent, and I'm sure it takes a bit of time getting used to a brand new system.

    Once Blues went ahead they were never going to let the lead go easily. They've conceded teh fewest goals this season after Chelsea. I don't know the stats but I'm pretty sure we had the ball in their half for most of the second half yesterday. They did what any team would do in that position and defend their hearts out. Fair play to them.

    Were we clinical enough? We had 25 attempts on goal of which about half were on target. They had two shots on target and scored two. It just seems to be one of those things. On another day we could have won that game 4-0.

    Nothing seems to be going right for us at the moment. Which is why some people don't mind the dive. Most probably don't condone it but i can see why people will take it to get a draw. That doesn't make Liverpool fans are ignorant or prove that they condone cheating. I think they just want a bit of luck to go our way. It now looks as though Riera is injured again and possibly Yossi. On the other hand I thought most of our players played pretty well. The effort was there and you can't deny that.

  50. Lots of good points, Gary.  I agree that N'gog was good last night and it's a shame that his dive will overshadow that.

    I'm not really talking about the dive - I'm talking about the ongoing issue of fans being accepting of cheating.

    This site's attitide to diving is zero tolerance.  The lines between what is and is not acceptable are becoming more and more blurred all the time.

    Once upon a time, diving was never acceptable.  Now, standards have been eroded to the extent that fans will make excuses for the cheating and rationalise it as okay.

    Someone has to have zero tolerance.  There has to be an voice out there that remains committed to fairness.  This site is necessary part of that voice.

  51. I'm not making excuses for diving or gamesmanship but I have to make the point that contact does not have to be made with the attacking player for a foul to be awarded. If an attacker is IMPEDED then a foul can be given. The tackle CLEARLY impeded the attack. Had David carried on without vaulting the lunge, and let's be clear about this, it WAS a lunge, then he would have either fallen, at pace, in a dangerous area (heading towards the advertising hoardings or goal post) or he would have stamped on the defenders legs.

    In all honesty what was he supposed to do? Ride Carsley like a surfboard in to the box?

    In my opinion it was a foul. It was a penalty. It was also a dive.

  52. why are u so up your own arse?

  53. I responded to this article yesterday expressing my disappointment regarding the so called dive. However, still maintaining that it was the wrong thing to do, i think Carsley is pushing his luck. Had Ngog not 'dived', Carsley would have been yellow carded, if not sent off as well as the referee awarding Pool a penalty. What Ngog did was actually save Carsley from embarrassment.

    Quite amazing how the Ninja has still not been mentioned anywhere in the press. In my opinion, both are offences except one can actually cause harm.

  54. The one thing I have not seen written is that Birmingham attempted no attacking but wanted to sit on their fluke 2'nd goal. The fans came to see football end to end. So who were the real cheats? Can anyone say with a 75% 25% possesion in Liverpools favour who was playing the football.  The more and more I read in the press. The more  I am convinced of the desire to put Liverpool "in it's proper place".  However, we will not lay down as they would like.  This city has had years of being treated as some poor relation.  The point is LFC are more than a football team we are a cause. As someone once said you can defeat  an army but not a cause.

  55. You've blatantly won the arguement otherwise Jamie would have responded by now. He doesn't seem to like continuing a discussion once its obvious he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Well done RedLester

  56. I cant wait for everyone to start Crying Bloody Murder next time somthing like this happens at Old Trafford, I will remember this and smile :-D

  57. Gotta say, the dive was a disgrace however I do feel that if he hadn't jumped there would have been contact anyways. I would much rather him stay on his feet and get taken out then jump and dive. 
    Can't blame the Ref either i thought it was a foul till i saw the replay, hopefully Rafa will take the lad to one side and talk to him about the Liverpool way, then i think he has the potential to become a fantastic player!

  58. Fiorentina fan here. I would like to note one that I was suprised to not see on your list of football cheats, I'm guessing because all but two are not related to English football that you tried to focus on diving in England. Alberto Gilardino's dive when he played for Milan was just horrendus, and he was rightly booked. Ironic now as he plays for my team, ha.

  59. the main problem in today game i think are players are coached to dive and encouraged to do so by managers and coaching staff. 

    if a couple of dives make the difference between finishing second or winning the prem or champs league, players will be encouraged to go down due to the rewards cash wise.

    football is big business, and any advantage you can get over the opposition is welcomed. winning trophies get you bigger sponsorship deals etc. 

    it not right, and I think players who dive should have the same kind of ban imposed as with getting a red card. The club should also be fined every time a player dives. Obviously if the ref does not see it while the game is being played, there is video evidence that can be used to impose the sanctions after the game. this will make coaches encourage players to stay on there feet if not just the player but the club is to suffer a loss of revenue. 

  60. I fail to understand your website, you call yourslef a Liverpool fan?

    Do you ever go to the games?
    Are you employed by the Yanks, oops shouldn't have wrote that its 'xenophobic'
    Has someone from SOS upset you once? you seem to have an issue with them?
    Are you just here to have a pop at everything LFC do?
    The papers and plently of other fans do this why do we need 'one of our own' to do this?

    You really have a few issues with our club.

    I fully expect you to not print this as only posts pro your comments and those that do not question how valid you are are posted

  61. Guest - if you want to criticse me/the site etc, do so in the proper place, which is here: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2007/01/general-discussionquestions.html

    This thread is for discussion about last night's game, ngog's dive or any related topics.  if you keep posting stuff that basically amount s to questioning whether I'm actually a fan, it will just be deleted.

  62. I agree with the article but a bit annoyed that it gives the impression that this mentality is the preserve of Liverpool fans. In that way it seems like a 'provoke' article. I do agree with the article however. I just don't naturally feel the same level of indignation as Jaimie, mainly because we benefitted from it. It's like having a thief in the family. You don't condone their actions. In fact you condemn them when asked. But most families condemn privately then move on. I think I'm gonna bury my head in the sand again until it's all over.

  63. Great dive, long may it continue if it wins points.

  64. I get what you mean, just seen the dive again on Youtube, check out these comments:



  65. I totally agree ! Diving is a disgrace !
    Fans would react differently if it was any of the big four team for example. Diving because the team is desperate for  a goal !  Then what ?   

    Rafa said : " Maybe it wasn't a penalty but we deserved to score more goals ",  Maybe?  That's why Rafa has kept on getting everthing wrong!  For god' sake, when something is wrong, you just say things are wrong! Don't try to find excuses for your mistakes ! 

    We can support the manager, we can sing his name, but when you clearly see things going wrong and you still clap your hands chanting diving was okay because we were desperate for a goal. Sorry, but that is and will always be completely WRONG!

    Stop being biased people!

    Jamie, at least there's your site to give fans real critical realism of what's going on!

    keep up the good work.

  66. Whatever...Diving is still cheating. If the Ref had clearly seen him, that was a yellow !  You don't get booked for not attacking. 

  67. I too am embarassed by both N'gog's dive and the blasé, hypocritical reaction of our fans. This isn't something I expect to see from a LIVERPOOL player or a LIVERPOOL fan. Think about what that means. We pride on being a cut above the kind of whoppers they have at Old Trafford but it looks like glory hunters and amoral bleeting simpletons are starting to permeate the walls of Anfield and erode our traditions. The booing of Lucas last term and the Rafa-out brigade are portents of our possible downfall and this revelling in cheating once more points to the bastardisation of the principles of the Kop. People are finding it hard to distinguish passion and tireless backing from an unthinking desire to win when it should be the easiest thing in the world. I hope the day doesn't come when the rational fan who bears in mind the traditions of the club and the Kop doesn't find his voice drowned out by the shrieking of day-trippers and the more Machievelian (or more likely more downright ignorant) amongst us. Contrary to what many like to believe, Manure's fans weren't always like they are today...

    Also, I know you come in for a lot of criticism Jay but I'd like to say I'm a regular visitor to this site and I'm a fan of the articles. That's not to say I always agree with what you say in the articles, perhaps I'm in disagreement more times than I agree, however I do value the format in which you present your ideas. As you've rightly identified, match reports are plentiful and don't take much effort to find but I come here to read journalistic articles espousing original thought and strong opinions on relevant issues and current affairs in football. I particularly appreciate your extensive use of in depth statistical evidence to back up your views and the use of insider information to shed new light on what at first may have seemed unremarkable stories (for example, your closer analysis of transfer fees which came in for undue criticism- asking questions of the club is not only our right as fans but our duty, especially with the clowns in our hierachy).

  68. cheers jamie for ur insight. as a blues fan who watched the game i was shitting it b4 it started. as 1 of the top clubs i was prayin we didnt get hammered!!!!! aftta 1 up i thort uh oh he we go. but credit to the lads to go 2 -1 up. now okay some fans say we played shit and got hammered but at the end of the day no1 gets points for possession/ corners or shots on target. now as a small club who will be fighting relegation i was ova the moon at how we defended. i make no excuses for that. it is up2 liverpool to break us down. and to concede a goal to that dive i was embarassed and i support the blues!!! i didnt think that such a prestigious club wud resort to such a tactic to get a draw. now i no liverpool r struggling and wud take nething they get but for us mere blues fans that could be the difference between  staying up or going down. i was also surprised at mcleishs reaction and have to admire him for that. but theres no place for it in football and for such a big club against smaller clubs.

  69. I think you missed the worst English culprit off the list there though Jamie, Gerrard.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures though. Who would have predicted just HOW desperate Liverpool would get this year though? Needing to dive to win a pen to get a draw at home to Birmingham? Christ.

  70. Yes we controlled the game. Yes we got in to dangerous positions in the box, but how many decent saves did hart make? I mean ones where he had to move to get the ball not just wait for it down his throat? Thats right, not many, Mascherano in the first half, but thats it really.

    Our final ball was TERRIBLE. Underhit, wayward, bad shooting-it was all in there.

    What would we be saying if Rooney had dived and saved United a point?
    Doesnt bear thinking about.

  71. Didn't some guy just come out saying that he has a sure proof way to tell if a player is diving? If a player falls with his chest sticking out, it is a dive according to him as that is not a natural way to fall. Well Ngog did that and in all of the videos on the other thread that you posted, the players fell with their chests out.

  72. "If people don't want to visit the site that's fine by me" Jaimie said, look i visit this site bcz of its name liverpool anything carry this name i will be in it, but really i feel anger now cz this name bring me alot of happiness now it bring ones like you. i dont like 100 percent judgemental 0 percent spiritual individuals.
    Also i can explain why LFC fans may go easy with that particular dive, Can u see how we are disappionted and frustrated from our last results that purely derived from our bad luck, You could see how was Llrois in Lyon's last match against Marsellie how he was fantastic conceded 5 goals how he got the ball in his net by his own left hand and then compare his performance agianst us with his last performance, Really there is more than a big difference.
    Consider our luck against sunderland and then our luck against Lyon and then against Brim, u may also add Fulham as Kuyt kept the ball from the throw to be converted into our net, and With last match our players kept Brim players terrified all the match inside their box area trying not to concede the goal In ordinary football match the most percentage of playing will be in the middle on this particular match it was in Brim Box and u dont want to get penalty How it could be, as playing alot in the middle leads to fouls in the middle of the field also playing all the match inside Brim's box area and if not inside it will be playing alonge its border it 100 percent lead to penalty i think that is brim's fault to be playing that manner.
    Fans and Players found that we playing agianst luck again it was very very frustrating even so i think it was devastating, then N'gog got inside the box with wonderfull skill and then face a tackle and then felt on the ground without any touch he could let himself to be tackled but he didn't and then the referee got us penalty what we would do ?!....
    Please Jaimie consider how was our luck in our last matches how it was against Brim how we was suffering alot alot alot from bad luck and the penalty appear to bring us to a shallow piont from our deep position of BadLuck's sea.
    After that u write this article without putting in ur mind is that we are very disappionted from our last results how we are suffering before that match and how we would suffer alot after that match without this penalty and without consider that we are human biengs we have some weakness i think we were in huge situation that situation afforded us to accept any thing to bring us from our misery, How u ask us to accept another match with bad luck u ask us to be fair i think u must ask football 1st to be fair to give its winning to the one who deserve it not the luckyiest one.
    PLEASE NO MORE PRESSURING ARTICLES FROM YOU, there is alot of pressure already exist in our club.
    AND PLEASE jaimie THINK MORE OF OUR PLAYERS THEY ARE ALL SACRIFICES THEIR MUSCLES TO GET US A LITTLE HOPE they are ready to give more if it takes more think how they played to unlimited effort how they got the pitch running shooting passing doing anything to win and they surely deserve it but they dont got it think how it was frustrated for them more than for us.......
    I pray for our luck to change Surely he will ,,,,,WE WILL NEVER WALK ALONE WE WILL GET BETTER SOON.

  73. This article is extremely relevent, and its relevance MUST be addressed by all fans, of all sports, in all countries.

    Direct cheating should not have a place in sport. Look at the strictness of drug missuse/abuse in Athletics, the fake blood in rugby and the transfer and match fixing scandals in football, (to name afew)...they all get severely punished as its cheating. cheating is all the same, no matter what form.

    Cheating is fundamentaly against all that is sacred in sports the world over.

    So IMO, it is more a talking point to discourage than the performance. Just because others do it, does not make it fair game for us too.

    We are Liverpool Football Club. We have deep integrated history, We are known for being honest, spirited fighters on the pitch and humble guests to this wonderfull sport off it.

    Long may it remain this way.

  74. If we cant score more than the opposition then we dont deserve to win. Bad luck or whatever. (maybe the beachball goal an exception??)

    Hard work, possession and more attempts at goal does not give us a divine right to be given a goal.

    Yes, were having some horrendus luck atm, but i believe we will go on a streak and maybe win the FA cup? Im not writing off the league untill its mathematically impossible.

    Next year, with luck. we could do an arsenal and not loose a game all season...who knows?? i certainly didnt see this season coming...

  75. I guess your right, i mean we haven't won the PL yet. so why do we all expect to? winning a championship is very different to a knock-out cup comp.

    In saying that, we are getting closer and the players themselves talk about it as if its going to happen, so maybe we will?

    I just hope we can cut diving from the team

  76. So will we continue to keep the term like Dropba around our fan boards, I wonder

  77. Well written and I completely agree.  Glad that we claimed a point for the club but N'Gog deserves any criticism coming his way for what amounts to a blatant act of cheating.  I don't buy the 'he was jumping out the way and would have been taken down anyway' argument.  You want the penalty, take the hit.  Don't want to be hit, go play another sport.

    The growing acceptance of diving definitely has to do with the lack of action taken against players.  In this day and age we can generally tell if a player dived thanks to video replay and it is beyond time that punishments were regularly handed out.  Ban a player for three games and then see whether he thinks twice the next time he goes down softly.

  78. Brad, would you be saying the same if N'gog had been seriously injured by Carsley's tackle? If N'gog had his ankle broken it what would have been a thunderous challenge, subsequently being injured for around 5 months would you still say "it was worth the hit for the penalty"?

    Sorry, but I can comletely understand why he avoided the tackle, I DO NOT condone diving and still think he should not have dived but I still believe it was a penalty, Carsley interupted his run by fouling the player, it's still a penalty regardless.

    If N'Gog had jumped the challenge and the ball had rolled out of play would he have been given the penalty? Probably not which would have been the wrong decision. Carsley tackled with intent and he did not win the ball. As Andy Gray has said:

    "If you go to ground in the penalty area you better make sure you win the ball, if you don't you're in trouble".

  79. Jamie Kanwaar,you a probably a good columnist,but your knowledge of football and the current liverpool management is somewhat misguided.. Try and read Paul Tomkins and you might learn a thing or two....on our official site or on www.tomkinstimes.com      i'm assuming you don't know or otherwise you are just shallow.... Bless you

  80. There should be zero tolerance for diving/cheating.  Whether we're on a bad run/having bad luck is irrellevant. There are no excuses: Cheating is cheating.

  81. Ngog's agent said the lad isn't a diver and I believe him. He explains that Ngog probably sprang into the air because he thought he was going to be injured: in other words, he fell down to avoid a clumsy tackle and didn't dive. After that, it's the referee's call.

  82. it was a clear penalty, ngog was impeaded he jumped out of the way as to not get injured, he did throw his hands in the air as a reaction to such a disgraceful lunge. Whats the big deal? - he was hadly rolling around faking an injury like drogba or signalling to the ref for a yellow.

  83. and realise you're still a tit? As someone else said, plenty of people have called N'Gog a disgrace for it yet you just want to portray the one side that will get you the most traffic.

  84. UCL and EPL aren't the same organisations so don't compare drogba's ban with rooney's "escape". 

  85. Long may it continue, makes for more comedy blogs anyway.

  86. Drogba was banned for screaming "It's a fucking disgrace!" in to the camera. Rooney said "12 men" in to the camera. Similar? Hmm. Scraping the barrel.

  87. two thing about the dive and the game, first, Ngog and Benitez came out and said it was not penalty, and he didnot ask for one when dived. which rasied the question did he dive to get a penalty or he dived becasue he got scared to get injured of Carsley tackle.
    Secondly  this was mentioned more than any other dive by english players which makes me think if there is a thirst to attack non english players if there is any suspicion of cheating.
    the sad thing is becasue of media coverage of diving, no one mentioned anything about Brimingham goal which in my opinion was a top goal
    finally cheating or not, we did deserved the draw as we were the better team. I however preferred that tha point was not won that way.  

  88. A direct free kick is awarded ( or if inside the box, a penalty ) if a player trips or attempts to trip an opponent. - FA rules.

    If I slide in between an opponent and the ball and miss both, does this constitute an attempted trip?

    I would say it is not such a black and white case and it is a pity that the actual rules of the game get forgotten at times.

  89. There you are Jamie, the Mancs love you more than we do. Run along and support them now please. Not that you have ever been to Liverpool anyway.

  90. the hypocritical fans defending any Liverpool acts of diving, no matter how blatant (while probably berating the acts of Drogba, Van Persie - actually, anybody that playacted but wasn't wearing a Liverpool shirt), are most likely the same hypocrites who were crying about 'Chelski' buying the Premiership, but then forced LFC to sell the family china so that the club could hopefully 'buy the Premiership' too. 
    But then again, Rafa said we need more money to compete so it's OK eh...

  91. Carlsley's challenge impeded Ngog - fact. If Ngog landed on his feet after hurdling the challenge, would it be fair for Ngog to then find it harder to get his shot away or retain possession? Carsley's challenge is actually a foul (see link), but the problem is refs don't normally give it, especially in the penalty box, which forced Ngog to take things into his own hands... a similar principle applies when goalkeepers come tearing out when a forward is clean on goal and they boot the ball past the keeper with no intention of getting on the end of it, but then they deliberately make contact with the keeper and go over winning a penalty for their side (a la Rooney against arsenal earlier this season). 

    For me, the penalty awarded in the 2005 champs league final was more dubious - and we also had carra trying to get Gattuso sent off. Was that ok?


  92. Good to see someone else aware of the laws of the game.

    Carlsley's challenge impeded Ngog - fact. If Ngog landed on his feet after hurdling the challenge, would it be fair for Ngog to then find it harder to get his shot away or retain possession? Carsley's challenge is actually a foul (see link), but the problem is refs don't normally give it, especially in the penalty box, which forced Ngog to take things into his own hands. 

    the same logic applies when goalkeepers come tearing out when a forward is clean on goal - diving at their feet. if the keeper doesn't get the ball then the forward has no alternative, but to manufacture a foul by deliberately making contact with the keeper. in my mind the keeper should stay on his feet or face the consequences if he dives in and doesn't get the ball (a la David Seaman & God in 1997(?)), and the same applies to carsley's challenge.

    Ridiculous for people to say that Ngog should have taken the challenge. 

    For me, the penalty awarded in the 2005 champs league final was more dubious - and we also had carra trying to get Gattuso sent off. Was that ok?

  93. Does everyone remember all the hype in the press when Eduardo dived against Celtic???
    I think Ngog has got off pretty lightly in the press really compared to him
    As a Liverpool fan i'm delighted that the penalty enabled us to get a draw but should we really condone cheating?
    We are Liverpool Fc though and should we really need to resort to cheating to draw with the likes of Birmingham
    We'd all be going ape-shit if the incident had happened against us but how our luck is going at the moment i'm only glad it didn't!