Gerard Houllier - RIP :-(

29 Oct 2009

Liverpool ‘sliding towards mediocrity’? Agenda-driven NONSENSE and an INSULT to the club.

Whether it’s empty, half-baked ‘Spirit of Shankly’ rhetoric or brainwashed fans jumping on the ‘Hicks and Gillett are the devil’ bandwagon (without actually knowing WHY), there is a damaging and pointless agenda being peddled in the press at the moment by alleged Liverpool fans that needs to be highlighted.

For me, Spirit of Shankly has no real credibility outside its cadre of easily-led weak-minded fans, all of whom are desperately eager to hurl xenophobic epithets and march around like yobs in a pointless effort to rid the club of its current owners.

Worse than that though is Liverpool fans in the press who use every article they write to further Spirit of Shankly’s spurious agenda.

A prime example of this Tony Barrett’s article in ‘The Times’ yesterday, in which he slated the owners for not yet having built Liverpool a new stadium. Mr Barrett’s comparison with Spurs’ new stadium was tenuous at best, but the part of the article that really stood out was this:

“It is becoming abundantly clear that the longer Hicks and Gillett remain at the helm of one of the world’s greatest clubs, the more likely it is that that club will continue its slide towards mediocrity”.


Mediocrity?

Where? How? Mr Barrett states that the Liverpool will ‘continue’ its slide into mediocrity, which presupposes that the club is already on its way there.

Any fair-minded person viewing the situation with any objectivity at all would see straight away this accusation is completely unfair and untrue.

And what a gigantic insult to everyone connected with the club. Despite the efforts put in by the players, the manager, the fans, the new managing director and everyone else, the club is apparently on the verge of ‘mediocrity’?!

How, exactly?

In his previous two articles, Mr Barrett also attacked the owners, using the same old ‘Spirit of Shankly’ clichés, but he never once explains WHY Liverpool are allegedly heading for mediocrity.

But this is typical of Liverpool fans at the moment – so many are foaming at the mouth about Hicks and Gillett but when you actually ask them to explain WHY they have such vitriol towards the owners, they can’t tell you. All they do is come with the same old generalised crap:

1. They put the club in debt
2. The ‘lied’ about having a ‘spade in the ground within 60 days’.
3. They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back
4. They heaped interest payments on the club

And blah blah blah.

The business and commercial realities behind the above are completely and utterly ignored, but fans don’t care about that; they’re seemingly not interested in the intricacies of business or the realities of how the world really works.

All they care about is the fact that owners are AMERICAN, which gives them a stick with which to beat them (Bravo, Spirit of Shankly!).

And consider this: how has any of the above ADVERSELY AFFECTED the performance of the club? The answer is, it HASN’T.

So, back to the ‘mediocrity accusation: is there any truth to it all. Let’s see – since Hicks and Gillett arrived at the club:

1. More money has been spent on transfers than at any other time in Liverpool's history, including:

20m – Torres
20m – Keane
20m - Aquilani
18.6m – Masch
17m – Johnson
16m - Dossena + Riera
11m on Babel

That is just the bigger fees. The club also broke its transfer record for a defender when signing Martin Skrtel.

2. Rick Parry was ousted from the club, something the majority of fans wanted.

3. Christian Purslow, a highly educated, business-savvy lifelong fan and season-ticket holder was appointed to increase the club's commercial prospects. This was undoubtedly a good move, especially after the abject commercial underachievement under Parry and Moores.

4. A new shirt sponsorship deal reputedly worth 80m over 4 years has been negotiated

5. A new (non-sponsorship) deal with Carslberg is in the offing, which could bring in more money for the club.

6. Liverpool has continued to look for ways to increase investment in the club, and Christian Purslow is confident that new investors will be found ‘within 3 to 6 months’. With his track record so far, is there any reason to doubt him?

7. Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt etc all signed on new long-term deals.

8. Despite intense friction with the owners, Rafa Benitez was signed to a new long-term deal, making him practically unsackable.

9. Benitez was given license to make sweeping changes to the club’s youth set-up and the Academy.

10. Liverpool legend Kenny Dalglish was brought back to the club in an Ambassadorial capacity, something that is great for Rafa, great for the players and great for everyone connected with the club.

11. Liverpool finished 2nd in the league on 86 points, the club’s best performance in the league since 1990.

12. For the first time ever, Liverpool received a top-level transfer fee for one of its players, i.e. Xabi Alonso. Think of previous top players who have left – Michael Owen and Steve McManaman are two prime examples. What did the club receive for them? A pittance.

13. Last year, the club made the largest operating profit in its history. I repeat: the club made its LARGEST OPERATING PROFIT IN ITS HISTORY.

So - I ask you: where is the alleged 'mediocrity' into which Liverpool is supposedly sliding?! Liverpool are not even close to that, but according to Tony Barrett and ‘The Times’, that is exactly what is happening.

Things are looking bright for Liverpool. Yes, H+G have made mistakes and conducted themselves in an inadvisable manner at times BUT it should be remembered that the media frenzy has been fed by everyone EXCEPT H+G.

Benitez has used the press to further his own agenda; Spirit of Shankly has fanned the flames of (baseless) discontent, and Liverpool supporting journalists in the media are also jumping on the bandwagon.

As I said earlier, arguing that Liverpool FC is ‘sliding into mediocrity’ is not only FALSE, agenda-driven nonsense, it is a gigantic insult to the club, its history and everyone who has worked hard to build the club up over the years.

Where is the fairness? Where is the ability to see the positive things that have happened since H+G took over? Anyone with a long-term view can see that despite some short-term hiccups, Liverpool are on the right track.

But that’s not good enough for the anti-Owner brigade, headed by ‘Spirit of Shankly’, whose damaging message is peddled in the media by its minions, who are so blinded by their irrational hatred for the owners that they cannot see the damage they are doing to the club.

But this kind of thing is nothing new. It’s called ‘Groupthink’, a well-known concept/thought process that has blighted the world for hundreds of years.

Groupthink is a concept that was identified by Social Psychologist Irving Janis and refers to faulty decision-making in a group. Groups experiencing groupthink do not consider all alternatives and they desire unanimity at the expense of quality decisions. Janis defined Groupthink as:

“A mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action”.

Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink:

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.

2. Rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.

3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".

6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.

7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.

8. Mind guards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

This is precisely what is happening with regards to the Owners and Liverpool fans at present. As such, it is imperative that fair-minded Liverpool fans rise-up and challenge this kind of cancerous collective thought-process.

Finally, I challenge Tony Barrett to explain - with specific examples - how Liverpool is allegedly ‘continuing to slide into mediocrity’.

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54 comments:

  1. Oddly, I agree with a lot of what you have written. I'm of the opinion that whoever owns the club, it's the club itself I support, not the owners. Therefore I will not do anything to endanger the club, unlike other such groups that you mention. How can it be good for the club to protest at matches, bringing off field events very much into the field of play? In basic terms, if the owners are here just to make a profit, they will want the club to be successful otherwise they won't make that profit.

    On another note entirely, I'm curious as to why you support Liverpool, it seems over recent months I have read articles of yours seemingly bashing manager, owners, fans, players. Is there any part of the club you like?

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  2. Tony Barrett writes up an article and you challenge him to prove his points. Why haven't we seen you do the same when countless others such as Cascarino & Collymore spit out unreadable drivel which are bias in  nature, and you keep quiet as though nothing has happened?

    There should be only 1 rule for all. Other than that, you verge on hypocripsy. And you wonder, why there is so much hatred for this site?

    Whatever your issues with SOS, thats between you and them. What prove do you have that Tony is part of them and is insuniating ideas for them? Can
    Stand up and be counted!

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  3. *sigh*

    Another person making completely inaccurate generalisations.  You've clearly missed the following over the last week:

    Me praising Rafa after the Sunderland defeat:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/bravo-why-rafa-benitez-should-be.html  
     
    Me highlighting how Liverpool had won the title after losing 4 of the first 9 league games in the past:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/revealed-how-liverpool-actually-won.html  
     
     
    Me arguing that Liverpool would rise from the ashes and mount a title challenge this season:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/rising-from-ashes-10-ways-to-save.html  
     
    Me arguing that Liverpool would be fine without Gerrard and Torres:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/gerrard-and-torres-injured-liverpool.html  
     
    Me arguing again that Liverpool could beat United without Gerrard and Torres:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/liverpool-v-man-united-442-or-4231.html  
     
    Me highlighting the weaknesses of United's central defensive pairing:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/video-lets-hope-rio-ferdinand-makes.html  
     
    Me stating the following in my interview with Rebublik of Mancunia (prior to the United game:  
     
    "Liverpool will beat United.  It's almost guaranteed if you ask me".  
     
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/view-from-enemy-interview-with-republic.html  
     
    In the same interview, me stating the following about Benitez:  
     
    <span>"Rafa will not be sacked, nor should he be. Liverpool have never sacked a manager mid-season and the club is not going to start now, especially after last season’s 2nd place finish".</span>  
     
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/view-from-enemy-interview-with-republic.html  
     
    Me continually posting positive articles from other writers about Rafa:  
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/rafa-benitez-high-stakes-adrenalin.html  
     
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/rafa-benitez-man-who-came-in-from-cold.html

    Me highlighting (yesterday) 18 reasons to be postive about LFC:
    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/18-reasons-to-be-positive-about.html

    I am critical, but I give credit where credit is due.

    And I agree with the points you raise - I also support the club first above all else, and the protesting (over basically nothing) is pointless and damaging.

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  4. Tony Barrett writes up an article and you challenge him to prove his points. Why haven't we seen you do the same when countless others such as Cascarino & Collymore spit out unreadable drivel which are bias in  nature, and you keep quiet as though nothing has happened? 
     
    There should be only 1 rule for all. Other than that, you verge on hypocripsy. And you wonder, why there is so much hatred for this site? 
     
    Whatever your issues with SOS, thats between you and them. What prove do you have that Tony is part of them and is insuniating ideas for them? Can you prove that Tony is a minion for SOS?
    Perhaps he is only a neutral supporter who wants the best for the club and isn't he entitled to voice out his opinions just like how you are doing here and everywhere?

    Stand up and be counted!

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  5. If you'd bothered to use the search feature, you would see that I have challenged Cascarino in the past.

    besides, this is not the point: you are displaying *exactly* what I described in the 'Groupthink' section of the article.

    No one is disputing TB's right to an opinion - I am merely challenging his view, something I also have a right to do.

    Instead of huffing and puffing and generally avoiding the issues, why don't you address the points I made?

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  6. Great artice, and spot on. the london based media also all love to have a go at liverpool regardless of the facts. most fans i speak with are half and half with SOS and its ridiculous. as said above, i support the club regardless of what goes on behind the scenes or with militant supporters trying to oust the owners.. 2,500 fans prostesting on saturday, 44,000 watching the match..  

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  7. Seminal piece. nice work. 

    Re SOS: Fair minded is the way forward. Group think is a valid argument. 

    Fair play we haven't had the best start, but this is LIVERPOOL FC. 

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  8. Hi, I am not a fan of either the owners or Rafa for that matter.
    I feel we need to increase the transfer buget and get in two possible three world class players, But i am not sure Rafa is the right man to do this. I would be happer if kenny was doing this. Rafa to me has been about quantaty as apposed to quality. This is were the mediocrity comes in.

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  9. Fair enough, Chris. But how is Rafa's dodgy transfer market record the responsibility of the owners?  Benitez bought his duds, not H+G.

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  10. The general points that the club is now more commercially aware are very valid, but in reality any one who replaced Rick Parry was bound to do a better job because he was pathetic and ill equipped to be doing such an important job. It was only his friendship with David Moores that kept him in the job for so long, the blind leading the blind.
    So it's a bit rich to put Parry's resignation down to the genius of H&G.
    The main fact remains, Moores sold the club to H&G for one reason, that reason was to provide money & investment to build a new stadium without it having an adverse effect on the team. Through the lies & spin of H&G Moores was convinced they had the money to do so otherwise he would not have sold it to them. Once they acquired the club they set about delaying the stadium with yet more new designs and then eventually shelved the idea citing the credit crunch as the main reason. Meanwhile they went about trying to sell the club at nearly twice what they bought it for only to see the Saudi's pull out at the last minute. This proves that Moores undervalued the club and H&G had only one intention, that intention was to buy the club via bank loans and sell it again as soon as possible making a massive profit. Hence why the original loan was only a 2 year short term agreement and the building of the stadium never got of the ground.
    I am convinced the above is accurate and true, however since their attempts at selling the club failed they then found themselves in a difficult position as to what to do next. So they agreed a further short term extension to the loans, restricted Rafa's spending this season so far to a net £8 million and have gone about making the club more attractive to potential buyers by trying to reduce the debt and putting new sponsorship deals in place. Everything they have committed to is short term, where is the 10 year plan, where is the definite dates for the stadium to be built, where is the real commitment to put their money where their mouth is? All they seem to be doing is spending time & the clubs money trying to find someone to bail them out and return them a profit. The latest jolly around Saudi Arabia was nothing more than a PR exercise showing the Saudi's what a great club with lots of potential LFC is, only yet again the Saudi's laughed at them and said we will buy the club when you are in financial meltdown and you have no choice but to sell it to us for a similar fee to what you bought it for.

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  11. Jamie I think we've progressed DESPITE our current Owners not because of them. Sure at the timethey seemed a good option and promised much "Rafa will be wanting plenty of this" or "we'll have a spade in the ground within 60 days", bare in mind this was BEFORE the Global Credit Crunch!

    I agree that Rafa has had a fair amount of money to invest in players but he's not had what he was promised and citing Alonso as a positive when discussing our Owners is very shortsighted.

    I doubt very much when Rafa said "go out and sign me Xabi Alonso" (or words to that effect) that H&G or their support system had any idea who he was, I'd say it was purely down to Rafa that we made such a good profit on a relatively unknown player from Sociedad.

    I'd also add that our ability to sign £20m players is partly down to our CL involvement which is responsible for around £25-£30m worth or revenue each season and since Rafa has been at Liverpool we have never failed to be involved, prior to Rafa we were involved in CL football just twice in ten years.

    I believe Tony Barrett's assessment is largely based on the fact that there are now FOUR other Clubs with larger and more valuable squads in the EPL, and we are also 5th in terms of player wages and these figures don't include Arsenal.

    Does it not worry you that Spurs and Citys squad value now eclipes our own? Because it worrys me dearly. Statistical analysis shows that 92% of Clubs that are successful also pay the most wages and have the most valuable squads, 92%!

    Make no mistake, we need investment and I can only see that coming should H&G sort themselves out or pack up, and I'm not a supporter of SOS before I'm tarnished with that brush - I'd take any opportunity to discredit them following the Munich incident.

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  12. Jamie I think we've progressed DESPITE our current Owners not because of them. Sure at the timethey seemed a good option and promised much "Rafa will be wanting plenty of this" or "we'll have a spade in the ground within 60 days", bare in mind this was BEFORE the Global Credit Crunch!

    I agree that Rafa has had a fair amount of money to invest in players but he's not had what he was promised and citing Alonso as a positive when discussing our Owners is very shortsighted.

    I doubt very much when Rafa said "go out and sign me Xabi Alonso" (or words to that effect) that H&G or their support system had any idea who he was, I'd say it was purely down to Rafa that we made such a good profit on a relatively unknown player from Sociedad.

    I'd also add that our ability to sign £20m players is partly down to our CL involvement which is responsible for around £25-£30m worth or revenue each season and since Rafa has been at Liverpool we have never failed to be involved, prior to Rafa we were involved in CL football just twice in ten years.

    I believe Tony Barrett's assessment is largely based on the fact that there are now FOUR other Clubs with larger and more valuable squads in the EPL, and we are also 5th in terms of player wages and these figures don't include Arsenal.

    Does it not worry you that Spurs and Citys squad value now eclipes our own? Because it worrys me dearly. Statistical analysis shows that 92% of Clubs that are successful also pay the most wages and have the most valuable squads, 92%!

    Make no mistake, we need investment and I can only see that coming should H&G sort themselves out or pack up, and I'm not a supporter of SOS before I'm tarnished with that brush - I'd take any opportunity to discredit them following the Munich incident.

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  13. George, its listen to Tony or you, there is only one answer to that, Tonys a true red, we know him, he actually goes the match and used to work in Liverpool. You are part of georges PR machine, The list above were you argue that you offer support to the club, why not now show all the other stuff which you have continually put the club, manager and fans down, you have put 11 articles to prove your point. Well there must be 100 against. George no matter what you say, you have not supported the boss with funds from you. Rafa has Raised all the money himself through champs league runs, wheeling and dealin the the market, for unstance torres come on the back of a champs run and the sales of Bellemy and Garcia, not from your pocket george. I remember your shout, if Rafa what snoop doggy dog, we will get him, the next week it was we aint buying players like drunken sailors. So i challenge you to show us were and exactly what money you have given this club and the manager for players and not the banks. P.s Please go to Anfield and speak to the fans their, find out what they really think, not everyone is for SOS or share Liverpool, but everyone can see that its Rafa who keeps us from sliding into mediocrisy and not you or Tom.

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  14. Haha!  That's genius :)

    I am actually George Gillett, eh?

    Okay.  Whatever you say.  Oh, and please refer to the list of 'Groupthink' symptoms in the post ;)

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  15. You only gamble on an £6-8 million player when you don't have the £30 million to buy the player you really want. Obviously when you have to choose players from the average players pool then you can't be too surprised when they don't work out.
    H&G are the owners & contrary to what you say they are responsible for ensuring the manager has all the money he requires to buy the players he wants to buy.

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  16. I'm neither a member of SOS nor a mindless follower who follows the way the wind blows. I particularly took offence  at this:

    <span>"Worse than that though is Liverpool fans in the press who use every article they write to further Spirit of Shankly’s spurious agenda." --> and you use TB as a prime example. Where is your proof for this? Where's the evidence?</span>

    Since you level the accusation in this article, I am addressing something from the article. This is my bone of contention. Prove it. Otherwise, remove it and apologize to TB.

    TB is among the few in the media who seem to write with proper perspective about the club. Otherwise The Times would not have hired him or given him the promotion from Liverpool Banter to do so. He deserves respect for writing without bias. It is easy to level an accusation and destroy a reputation. Alas, that comes too easy for you, I suppose Jaimie?

    If you cant back up your allegation, isn't that is what you have done, Jaimie?

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  17. My entire article backs up my position on this!  Or are you someone else who just wades in withouth reading first?

    I posted the snippet from TB's article in the post:


    <span><span>“It is becoming abundantly clear that the longer Hicks and Gillett remain at the helm of one of the world’s greatest clubs, the more likely it is that that club will continue its slide towards mediocrity”.</span></span>

    I then proceeded to explain WITH SPECIFIC EXAMPLES why Liverpool is NOT sliding into mediocrity.

    A link is provided to to TB's article for people check it our for themselves.

    The 2 articles TB published prior to the one in question had the following titles:

    Rafael benitez cannot be blamed for crisis at Anfield, says Tony Barrett:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6883920.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=796995

    Michael Owen's sins are nothing compared to those of Hicks and Gillett

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6883920.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=796995

    Then we have yesterday's article, in which he lambasts H+G for failing to build a stadium (despite a recession!) and then makes his claim about 'sliding into mediocrity).

    Now, you're going to stand there and try to credibly argue that TB is not biased against the owners?!

    Wake up!

    The arguments he produces in all three articles are exactly the same arguments peddled by Spirit of Shankly.

    And why should I apologise?  This is not a personal attack - it is challenging a viewpoint.

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  18. What a nincompoop!

    I asked for a sofa and you have given me a lamp.
    Go figure.

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  19. Well, Jaimie, you guys can moo till the cows come home.
    But until you start expanding your horizons by upgrading your cognitive domains, for example by reading that book soccernomics, you are going to be crooning from your self made cocoon. And the lack of intelligence shows up.

    Neway, keep us entertained. Thanks!

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  20. Yea i agree that the americans have made us a more efficient business, but what makes you think any of the new found revenue streams are anywhere near the pitch? They might have provided the finance for torres and co but that only means that they have a bigger overdraft facility than David Moores. (and Moores wasn't willing to cripple us with debts to try and succeed!) I don't agree with every SOS arguement but at least they are trying to do something about the situation.
    You cant start a debate by taking away the counter arguement before it even kicks off e.g 60 days, put us in debt etc... as these are serious club threatening issues Beleive it or not H and G are the worst thing to happen to liverpool fc.
    Just imagine if we didn't have such crippling debt our record breaking income of last year could have paid for Villa and Silva , sorry mate I'm firmly disagreeing on this!

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  21. Greetings from Norway. Very interesting article. Good points. But one question Jaimie, can you see any other goal for the americans then to sell the club asap with biggest possible profit? Or do you think they actually have feelings for the club?
    Cause this that is the big problem for many of us. Moores we knew had feelings.

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  22. I'm getting a little tired and frustrated with your connection of SOS and this alleged xenophobia, which I've gone through great lengths to dissprove and yet you continue with this slanderous comment.

    Regarding Spurs' new stadium. Yes, the link is rather tenuous, but it will still raise question. Both clubs are in the same state, in that they have proposed plans for a stadium. However, the fact that Spurs have brought out plans now, in a time when supposedly it's difficult to get the finances together for a stadium will bring questions to the American owners over why they are not able to get a stadium together in the current financial climate.

    An oft used tactic by many reporters who like to bring negativity towards Liverpool, and in all honesty Rafa while bringing positivity to the American owners is how much has been spent on players. However, this viewpoint can be very easily altered when you see that Rafa has been forced to sell before he can buy. You will find that his net spending is not that high.

    I honestly felt Gillet and Hicks were bad for the club, before Spirit of Shankly was ever formed. I don't get to the games and I don't have a group of match going friends to be lead by this "Groupthink" concept. I like many others were fooled by Hicks and Gillett with the promises they made. I thought finally, we would be able to compete by being able to bring in the World Class players needed to push from top 4 to league winning, or title challenging by April/May.

    All I've seen is that they've put debt on the club like the Glazer's have done (but not to the same extent), which means there are interest payments leaving the club which could have been put on world class players. When you see that our three "main" buys this summer are Aquilani (£20m but we've only actually paid £5m so far), Johnson (half of his fee subsidised by the sale of Crouch), and Kyrgiakos (because we couldn't "afford" the £3m for other defenders), I see that basically we have no real money to deal with.

    We're basically in the same position as we were under Parry and Moores, except we're now in more debt. The only positive thing I've seen the American owners do, is improve the clubs saleability around the world in terms of the sponsorship deals you've mentioned and making us more popular around the world.

    I seriously worry that if we don't make Champions League football, then we're not going to get the income from the CL, we're not even going to be able to afford basic transfer deals. We're going to have to sell more to buy, and that's potentially the likes of Mascherano, Reina, Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt. Then what kind of squad do we have left? That's where I see us sliding towards mediocrity or even beyond to the depths of being all but forgotten like Nottingham Forest, or Leeds. Yes, it's worse case scenario, but we've seen it happen before, and by not learning from those mistakes, it could easily happen again. As a Liverpool fan, I seriously worry about that, and the solution to that in the short term is the departure of the American owners.

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  23. Hi there.  Thanks for your comments :)

    I believe that the Americans have genuine affection for the club, yes, eben more so now than at the beginning of their tenure.  it takes time to build up an affinity with any club, and at the beginning, I'm sure H+G had the utmost respect for the club.  Two and a half years later, I'm sure that respect has grown into genuine affection as well.

    Just because they weren't able to deliver on certain things does not mean they lose affection for the club, does it?

    They may be ultimately out to make a profit that is not a credible argument with which to attack them with because, ultimately, Liverpool FC is a business! It is the same for every club: every club owner wants to make money, but to then argue that they're in it ONLY for the money is unfair.  Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing to back this view up.

    Fans need to accept the realities of business:  make no mistake, modern football is, first and foremost, a business.  Fans don't see it that way but we do not own the club! And even if fans DID own the club, do you really think that making money would cease to be an issue?!  Of course not.

    Consider this though: the only way the owners can make money is if Liverpool is successful.  They have absolutely nothing to gain by NOT doing everything they can to make the club successful on the pitch.

    As Iv'e highlighted, things are looking great for Liverpool.  People go on and on about debt but it does not last forever!  If Liverpool obtain new investment (which Christian Purslow is confident of achieving within 3-6 months), then any investment coming in will benefit the club and reduce the debt.

    It's best to take a long-term view. Whenver Hicks and Gillett are slammed by the likes of SOS, fans should be asking themselves simple questions:

    1. Has the team gone backwards since H+G arrived? NO

    2. Has performance on the field improved? YES

    3. Has money available for transfers dramatically increased? YES

    4. Is the club's commercial side/revenue possibilities increasing? YES

    With this in mind, who the hell cares if the 60 day 'spade in the ground' deadline was missed?!  Who cares if H+G claimed expenses from the club.  They own the damn club, so they're entitled.

    believe me, if there are serious problems on the horizon with owners I will be the first to criticise (come on, you know me ;) - but as far as I am concerned, things are progressing well, and things will only get better.

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  24. Thanks Jaimie. Carry on with what you do!

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  25. Thinly-veiled Rafa-bashing if you ask me, and doubtless a much-needed ‘pro-Liverpool’ post that you can throw at people who accuse you of being negative towards the club.

    Firstly I’d like to mention the ‘generalised crap’ as you put it towards the start. Four points:


    They put the club in debt – yes they most certainly did, since they didn’t invest their own money and refinanced loans using the club as an asset.
    They lied about having a spade in the ground within 60 days – yes, they most certainly did. Was there a spade in the ground within 60 days? No.
    They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back. While there isn’t any hard ‘proof’ of this, it was so widely reported and coincided so accurately with subsequent unrest on Rafa’s part, only a fool wouldn’t believe this was true.
    They heaped interest payments on the club – see point one.

    This is the most shocking part of this article, how can you call four widely accepted truths complete crap?

    Now to address the other points:

    1-More money has been spent on transfers than at any other time in Liverpool's history – Aside from the fact that this is hardly unheard of for most aspiring league-leaders year-on-year (prices always rising etc), barring massive player sales (Ronaldo), how much of that money has come from our player sales? A large proportion if you research the figures. So, very little has come from H+G, particularly if you compare it to the amount that has been (often personally) invested by the owners of our main rivals. If you research the figures, we’ve only spent £3-5m more per season on average since their arrival, including of course, player sales.

    2-Rick Parry was ousted from the club – ok, I’ll give you this one, it seems as though H+G are the only parties that could have been responsible. Apart from the fact that 90% of the fans have been screaming for this for years, of course.

    3-Christian Purslow – again, seems like an excellent acquisition and again, by default will give H+G credit, though it’s clear that they don’t know enough about the sport to have made the appointment without advisors (and perhaps a chat with Rafa?)

    ReplyDelete
  26. Thinly-veiled Rafa-bashing if you ask me, and doubtless a much-needed ‘pro-Liverpool’ post that you can throw at people who accuse you of being negative towards the club.

    Firstly I’d like to mention the ‘generalised crap’ as you put it towards the start. Four points:

    They put the club in debt – yes they most certainly did, since they didn’t invest their own money and refinanced loans using the club as an asset.
    They lied about having a spade in the ground within 60 days – yes, they most certainly did. Was there a spade in the ground within 60 days? No.
    They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back. While there isn’t any hard ‘proof’ of this, it was so widely reported and coincided so accurately with subsequent unrest on Rafa’s part, only a fool wouldn’t believe this was true.
    They heaped interest payments on the club – see point one.

    This is the most shocking part of this article, how can you call four widely accepted truths complete crap?

    Now to address the other points:

    1-More money has been spent on transfers than at any other time in Liverpool's history – Aside from the fact that this is hardly unheard of for most aspiring league-leaders year-on-year (prices always rising etc), barring massive player sales (Ronaldo), how much of that money has come from our player sales? A large proportion if you research the figures. So, very little has come from H+G, particularly if you compare it to the amount that has been (often personally) invested by the owners of our main rivals. If you research the figures, we’ve only spent £3-5m more per season on average since their arrival, including of course, player sales.

    2-Rick Parry was ousted from the club – ok, I’ll give you this one, it seems as though H+G are the only parties that could have been responsible. Apart from the fact that 90% of the fans have been screaming for this for years, of course.

    3-Christian Purslow – again, seems like an excellent acquisition and again, by default will give H+G credit, though it’s clear that they don’t know enough about the sport to have made the appointment without advisors (and perhaps a chat with Rafa?)

    4-New shirt sponsorship – Purslow did this

    5-Carlsberg deal – Purslow did this

    6-Increasing investment – Purslow is doing this, one of his primary jobs, and a generalised repeat of the above.

    7-Torres, Gerrard etc. sign new deals – yes, which is good, but unfortunately at the expense of new player sales. We were promised money for new players, which never materialised, and it seems as though most of it went to this purpose (though the figures don’t add up). Perhaps this makes financial sense, but it’s not gonna win us trophies, and it’s not helping Rafa any.

    8-Rafa signed new deal – this is certainly good, though had he not H+G would have had to find a new manager themselves, and we can all guess what might have happened then (Klinsmann).

    9-Benitez making changes – about damn time. Why shouldn’t he have authority in this area? But again, giving an already over-worked boss more work to do is hardly something to be lauded (even though he wanted it).

    10-King Kenny’s back – in all honesty, who would ever turn him down if he was willing?

    ReplyDelete
  27. 11-Liverpool’s finish last season – quite. And all of this despite being constantly reminded of shocking player purchases, ineffective tactics and the generally poor job he’s doing on Liverpool-Kop.

    12-Alonso’s fee. I can’t comment on this insightfully because I can’t get past the massive brick wall that is the following: how can you possibly laud this in one article after constantly banging on about what a terrible move it was to ‘let him leave’?

    13-Club’s largest operating profit. This is good. But it has obviously come at the expense of broken promises ie: funds not available for player sales etc. Any other money that has come in has been nothing to do with H+G generating new profit for the club.


    So in general you seem to be crediting our owners largely for what Purslow did along with making some very obvious decisions that deserve no special credit. I have no accurate frame of reference here so I’ll pull a figure out of nowhere – 90% of Liverpool fans would agree that H+G should get out and never return. 90% (or the vast majority) is very unlikely to be wrong.

    In conclusion, Liverpool isn’t sliding into mediocrity, and Barrett is clearly a tool. And while this is a more interesting article than the more negative ones that are more frequent on your site, if, hypothetically, a fan was only able to get information on the club from Liverpool-Kop over the last year, they would certainly be forgiven for thinking as much.

    I welcome any comments if you have time to reply.

    ReplyDelete
  28. "...so many are foaming at the mouth about Hicks and Gillett but when you actually ask them to explain WHY they have such vitriol towards the owners, they can’t tell you. All they do is come with the same old generalised crap:

    1. They put the club in debt
    2. The ‘lied’ about having a ‘spade in the ground within 60 days’.
    3. They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back
    4. They heaped interest payments on the club

    And blah blah blah."

    Jamie they did put us into heavy debt, to the tune of £310m approximately. We are now struggling to get further investment and Prince Faisal has pretty much told Gillett "I won't be your cash cow", if Gillett wants to sell his stake he's going to have to take a hit on his profit margin. They were involved because they wanted to make money which is fair enough although slightly nieve given their expectations. As much as you can call anyone who doesn't like H&G part of the SOS conspiracy the fact is Gillett can be seen in 2005 saying "We will have a spade in the ground within 60 days", the credit crunch didn't hit until 2008 so why is that being used as an excuse for the ZERO progress made with the new stadium?

    I'd imagine the excuses they came out with such as wanting to make the ground bigger and changing the aesthetics were a delaying tactic - they didn't have the money to support the build.

    Thank Christ they didn't start building the Stadium as we could have been plunged into further debt, I doubt very much they were going to stump up the money to build it!

    ReplyDelete
  29. "...so many are foaming at the mouth about Hicks and Gillett but when you actually ask them to explain WHY they have such vitriol towards the owners, they can’t tell you. All they do is come with the same old generalised crap:

    1. They put the club in debt
    2. The ‘lied’ about having a ‘spade in the ground within 60 days’.
    3. They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back
    4. They heaped interest payments on the club

    And blah blah blah."

    Jamie they did put us into heavy debt, to the tune of £310m approximately. We are now struggling to get further investment and Prince Faisal has pretty much told Gillett "I won't be your cash cow", if Gillett wants to sell his stake he's going to have to take a hit on his profit margin. They were involved because they wanted to make money which is fair enough although slightly nieve given their expectations. As much as you can call anyone who doesn't like H&G part of the SOS conspiracy the fact is Gillett can be seen in 2005 saying "We will have a spade in the ground within 60 days", the credit crunch didn't hit until 2008 so why is that being used as an excuse for the ZERO progress made with the new stadium?

    I'd imagine the excuses they came out with such as wanting to make the ground bigger and changing the aesthetics were a delaying tactic - they didn't have the money to support the build.

    Thank Christ they didn't start building the Stadium as we could have been plunged into further debt, I doubt very much they were going to stump up the money to build it!

    ReplyDelete
  30. "...so many are foaming at the mouth about Hicks and Gillett but when you actually ask them to explain WHY they have such vitriol towards the owners, they can’t tell you. All they do is come with the same old generalised crap:

    1. They put the club in debt
    2. The ‘lied’ about having a ‘spade in the ground within 60 days’.
    3. They talked to Jurgen Klinnsman behind Rafa’s back
    4. They heaped interest payments on the club

    And blah blah blah."

    Jamie they did put us into heavy debt, to the tune of £310m approximately. We are now struggling to get further investment and Prince Faisal has pretty much told Gillett "I won't be your cash cow", if Gillett wants to sell his stake he's going to have to take a hit on his profit margin. They were involved because they wanted to make money which is fair enough although slightly nieve given their expectations. As much as you can call anyone who doesn't like H&G part of the SOS conspiracy the fact is Gillett can be seen in 2005 saying "We will have a spade in the ground within 60 days", the credit crunch didn't hit until 2008 so why is that being used as an excuse for the ZERO progress made with the new stadium?

    I'd imagine the excuses they came out with such as wanting to make the ground bigger and changing the aesthetics were a delaying tactic - they didn't have the money to support the build.

    Thank Christ they didn't start building the Stadium as we could have been plunged into further debt, I doubt very much they were going to stump up the money to build it!

    ReplyDelete
  31. As a born and bred red and a season ticket holder for longer than I care to remember (I'm 52 if you must), I take exception to much of this article.

    I am in no way a fan or supporter of SoS and at Anfield on Sunday I spoke out, as I always do, in protest to them hijacking the great man's name.  They do not speak for the terraces nor are they the voice of the common fan.  I currently hold the same views as them in that we both want H&G out.  However, I feel their methods and tactics are counter-productive.

    As a professional writer myself, I often have to sit back and amaze at how this author professes to be unbiased in his views yet uses what we call google research (obvious no?) to come up with pop-psychological 'evidence' to back up his wild opinions.

    Jamie, you obviously want to get noticed by a red-top, but by always looking for issues and problems with the club you forget to support them and you somehow stop being a fan.  You're just a critic.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Mate, you are entitled to your view, like anyone else, but you seem to support the new owners and I would like to know your thoughtson them putting $300mil debt on the club, which could have been used for the new stadium. Instead the debt is for them buying the club. Put in another way, if they had bought the club, we could have bought all the players you listed, plus Silva or similar in the summer, without them putting in another penny. Instead we are paying interest on a useless loan (not even the capital).

    Are you geuinely not concerned that we have debt of a new stadium without actually having one?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Growler - who apart from the likes of Abramovich and Man City's new owners can afford/are willing to buy a premiership club outright? This is the exception, not the rule.

    The way H+G bought the club is standard business practice.  People go on like they've done something completely left-field, which they haven't.

    Furthermore, Liverpool FC's  shareholders *allowed* the deal to go through; it's not as if they all woke up one morning and exclaimed 'Oh god!  There's debt on the club.

    In any event, going ahead and building a stadium would've been distastrous anyway (given the current climate); and why does it matter that the stadium has not been built yet? H+G were wilsdly optimistc about having the work started 'in 60 days', but show me ONE top-flight club - just one - from any point in history that has managed to plan and build a stadium in 2 and a half years!!

    It's never been done! 

    As a comparison, Arsenal took 7 years to complete the Emirates and they missed their 2003 deadline along the way.

    I prefer to take a long-term view.  A new stadium will get built; of that, I have no doubt.  It is not in H+G's interested to NOT build a new stadium.  If they are only in it for the money (as people supriously suggest), then surely building a new stadium is imperative for that goal?

    Just because the stadium hasn't been started/completed after 2.5 years doesn't mean it never will.

    Yes, having that level of debt is not the greatest thing, but how has it affected Liverpool on or off the pitch?!

    It hasn't!

    Liverpool have spent more money on transfers than at any time in history, and the commercial side and revenue opportunities are increasing exponentially.

    All we keep hearing from the press is interest this and debt that and blah blah blah, but just because the press says we're heading for financial meltdown doesn't make it so, does it?!

    The proof is in the pudding: what is the reality NOW?  Is there ANYTHING negative that has come from having that level of debt/interest payments so far?

    NO.

    But then you can't win. People will say 'but we didn't spend 30m on someone'.  Well, if we HAD spent that money, then someone else would say 'But we didn't spend 40m on someone', and use that as some kind of evidence that the debt/interest payments were having an impact.

    The press and fsome ans are so busy trying to convince everyone that at some point in the future it is all going to collapse that they can't see the wood for the trees.

    Things are looking good.  Have some faith that it will all work out in the end.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hi Gaius - With respect, I do not profess to be unbiased at all.  Quite the opposite in fact - I have on numerous occasions explicitly stated that I AM biased. All football fans are biased; there are no unbiased fans.  It's an impossibility.

    At the top of the page it says 'rejecting biased media hype' - so perhaps that's what you thinking of.

    I'm not quite sure to what you're referring when you 'google research to come up with pop-psychological evidence' to back up my 'wild' opinions.  I did not need to trawl Google to come up with the concept of 'Groupthink'; I studied it in depth at one point, and the application of the concept in relation to football fans has always fascinated me. Indeed, I've referred to that concept many times in my articles over the years.  I provided a link to it so people could read more about it if they wanted.

    And I'm not looking to get noticed by anyone.  I could be writing for one of several well-known newspapers right now if I wanted to, but I refused because I want to write for myself; I am not interested in having to make my views fit someone else's editorial policy.

    It is entirely possible to be critical and be a fan - the two are not mutually exclusive.  I get the same joy out of supporting Liverpool that you do, I'm sure. 

    I may be a critic, but whether people like it or nore, critics are necessary in life.

    ReplyDelete
  35. "Things are looking good.  Have some faith that it will all work out in the end."

    Emailing dictionary.com now, we have a new entry for the term 'hypocritical'.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Don't just say it - explain how that is hypocritical.

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  37. Jaimie! you are spot on, left field is to come in and buy a club with your own money i.e (Arabs). Buying a club the way H+G have is common practice around the world, It's no different to buying a house. They made a mistake by saying they wouldn't do what the Glazers did?, It was a business opportunity and who can really blame them for seeing ($signs). Do they love Liverpool?, probably not. Would we like to see them go?, yes of course, are Liverpool a better run club?, definately yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  38. Ok, because the majority of articles on your site are rather 'doom and gloom', in that you are picking at various things that you believe are wrong with LFC. And the majority of these are disputed (rather than acquiesced) by your commentors, which would suggest that you are the last person to finish a post with "have some faith..." etc.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Is there ANYTHING negative that has come from having that level of debt/interest payments so far?  
     
    NO.
     

    How is having to pay off 40m pound worth of debt not a problem!  The point is that Liverpool could have bought a player with that money...

    ReplyDelete
  40. What a crap article. And you writing for several leading newspapers? Published and printed where? From your living room I think. 2nd rate stuff. 1st time I've visited this site but can already see why most people can't stand it.

    ReplyDelete
  41. <span>"the club made its LARGEST OPERATING PROFIT IN ITS HISTORY". How convenient. operating profit is before deducting interest. and how much were the interest payments Jaimie?? and what matters is "Net profit". </span><span>thats the bottom line quite litereally.</span><span> operating profits are meaningless if you have to pay shit loads of interest. leverage is good as it helps reduce tax payments and boosts cash flows. but in liverpool's case the leverage is excessive. firstly its not something the club should even be paying for and secondly the leverage is too much for a club with liverpool's financial situation. you conveniently forget to mention how top accounting firms have certified that the debts on liverpool's balance sheet are excessive. ahh but but jaimie is omniscient. he knows all. more than even financial gurus.  
    </span>

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  42. the article is a good pioece opf work, remember  99%OF CLUBS,JOURNALISTS ARE JELOUSE OF LIVERPOOL F C......yes!!!! ynwa

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  43. Absolute Poppy cock.  Complete and utter apologist rubbish.  Hick and Gillette are not only Liars, they are PROVEN liars.  No, I'm not about to google a transcript of the tissue of lies they have trotted out since becoming the clubs custodians - you do it, you seem to enjoy googling your research.

    The club is in Debt, they said they wouldn't put the club in debt.  You constantly say that organisations like the SOS do not do things the "Liverpool Way", yet talking to another prospective manager whilst assuring the position holder of his job is?  Laughable.

    They promised a spade in the ground and failed, they now claim poverty whilst a relatively less successful club has just started their new stadium, in exactly the same economic circumstances that they say make it impossible.  Could it be that Spurs raised the Finance because they're not in Debt to the tune of £250 Million?

    You say we have spent in record amounts.  Yes, and at least half that spending has been financed by player sales.  Rafa has a NET spend of less than £20 million per season in the Job.  That reduces when Hicks and Gillette get in the chair.

    The SOS does not speak for all Liverpool Fans - nor does it claim to.  But they do speak.  They do at least have a voice.  I'd have more respect for your opinions if you didn't have a love in with a Website that glories in the deaths of the 96, and actually finances itself by selling T shirts glorying in it.

    Come on Jaimie, you're a big one for issuing challenges, here's mine to you.  Publish a full and complete apology for having any contact with that website whilst they sell those T shirts, and undertake to not have contact with them whilst they do the same.

    ReplyDelete
  44. This is the last day I visit this site, I swear.
    You're first point, Jamie, is a nonsense.
    '<span>1</span>. More money has been spent on transfers than at any other time in Liverpool's history'

    That doesn't mean anything.

    Please tell me of a Premier League club that isn't spending more money than at any time in it's history???
    Are you aware of a thing called inflation? Are you also aware that in terms of football transfer fees we have had, effectively, hyperinflation? Are you aware that TV money has increased massively since the PL was launched?
    More money into the club means more money spent.

    What matters is what is spent relative to how much other clubs are spending.

    I will admit that Arsenal have stopped spending money.  And guess what?

    They haven't won anything since they stopped spending!!!
    When they were winning league titles and FA Cups they did it with players already at Arsenal (before Wenger) and with players bought for real money like Vieira, Pires, Henry, Petit, Overmars etc etc.

    I'm sorry but as your first point was absolute BS I didn't bother with the rest, You are clueless, self-important, and I realise not too bright.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Your points are the same old tired, half-baked accusations that have been said 100 times before.

    Enough with the '[spade in the ground within 60 days' rubbish!  Who the hell cares if the stadium wasn't started in 60 days?!  Given the recession and credit crunch, it would've been suicied to start building a stadium during that period.  Or are you just going to ignore the econonmic realities of the situation?! 

    The 60 day comment was wildly optimistic, but to keep using it as evidence that H+G are liars is just ridiculous. 

    And your point about Spurs just illustrates your inability to look at things fairly:  you state that 'a relatively less successful club has jjst started their new stadium'.  Since when did annoucing plans for new stadium constitute 'starting' construction, or a ny kind of work?!  It doesn't.  Announcements happe all the time.  They mean nothing.  The comparison has no merit whaotsoever.

    And again with the net spend argument! How do you know HALF of the club's player spend has been financed by plaer sales?!  Did you just pull this figure out of the air?  What is your source.

    And even IF that was true, what exactly is the problem?!  Using player sales to finance further purchases is STANDARD PRACTICE!  Why do you refuse to see this?  how can you credibly use that as way to criticise the owners?!

    The bottom line is Liverpool have signed Torres, Mascherano, Johnson, Aquilani and Keane - all big money signings - since H+G took over.

    And I - and other Liverpool fans - DO have a voice.  And as I discovered yesterday (via an email of encouragement) this site is read by the people very high up in Liverpool FC hierarchy.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Good article Jaimie, I've no particular love for the owners but the empirical evidence that you outline above does provide a much needed element of balance. It's slightly surprising in some ways as I often think you fail to give Rafa the same sort of fair minded / balanced criticism but it's welcome none the less. 

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  47. Ok apologist I'll bite.

    The 60 day comment was NOT wildly optimistic, it was a statement of fact, given by GG at a Liverpool Press Conference.

    The only person who denies he said it is GG himself.  He is quoted in the Press everywhere that he said it and has not, tellingly, tried to deny it.

    We have had an announcement.  Spurs have had an announcement.  Spurs are not in debt to the tune of £250 Million, and WILL therefore have their stadium before we do.  You accuse ME of ignoring financial realities?  Simple Maths Jaimie.  When you start a sum with "-250 Million Pounds" you look a hell of a lot less attractive to potential investors / loan brokers.  May I also draw your attention to H and G's statements with reference to the club and their position on Debt?

    Gillett said: 'This is truly the largest sport in the world, the most important sport in the world, and this is the most important club in the most important sport in the world and what a privilege we have to be associated with it.'We have purchased the club with no debt on the club so, in that regard, it is different [to the Glazers]. We believe in the future of the club, the future of the league, the new TV contracts are outstanding and we are proud to be a part of it."

    So - no lies there then.  Of course, anticipating your apologist stance, he didn't say that tomorrow they would not load that Debt on to the club, but right there, right then, they lied.  And continue to do so.

    My source for the figures are those that are freely available to anyone who cares to have a google.  Go on, have a go.

    The Bottom line is that Hicks and Gillette continue to under invest in Liverpool, whilst trying desperately to bring in investors without losing overall control.  They are a pair of Carpet Baggers who are determined to get free money, by expecting Liverpool Fans to finance their takeover - that certainly wasn't in their first press conference.  I am entirely happy that you are happy with their business model Jaimie, it allows me to ask you this.

    I want to buy your house.  I promise I'll pay for it one day, but in the meantime carry on paying the Mortgage and move out will you?

    There's a good chap.

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  48. I do not dispute that Gillett made the comment.  however, it was NOT a promise; it was a statement of intent.  This is the exact quote:

    "The first spade will start going into the ground on that project by March 2007"

    The question here is was Gillett deliberately lying when he made that statement?
    I do not think so.  I think he genuinely believed what he said at that point. After that, things changed for a variety of reasons.
    Re Gillett recently denying he made that comment. Yes, it appears to be a lie.  However, it is not equally possible that he just misremembered who made the comment in the first place?
    Why is this not a possibility?  I sincerely doubt a man in Gillett's positon would repeatedly and emphatically lie ON THE RECORD about something that could be checked in 5 minutes flat.
    In any event - what difference does it make?  There was a credit crunch and a recession, so starting a stadium would've been inadvisable anyway, especially since construction companies were hit hard by thechanging economic climate. 
    It's been less than 3 years since H+G took over - how many clubs build a stadium in three years DURING A RECESSION/CREDIT CRUNCH?!
    And you have no way of knowing that Spurs WILL have their stadium before us.  What proof do you have of that?  Arsenal took 7 years to complete the Emirates, and they missed their deadline by 3 years.  Spurs will take a similar, if not longer, amount of time.
    There is no guarantee that Spurs' stadium will be built at all! It is merely an announcement at this stage.
    re the debt - yes, at first they stated there would not be debt put on the club. So they changed their minds.  This is BUSINESS.  This is the way it works.  Not everything is inflexible and set in stone.  And as I've argued elsewhere, this is STANDARD BUSINESS PRACTICE!  You act like it's something that has never been done before.  Buying with cash is the exception, not the rule, and if you look at all the football leagues across the world, this is inarguably true.
    And Man United are in the same situation as Liverpool in terms of how the club was financed.  I don't see it hurting them, do you?!

    The only difference between H+G and the Glazers is United's owners kept their mouths shut.  H+G made two inadvisable statements, both of which I believe *they believed* were true at the time:
    If they had said nothing about having a spade in the ground after 60 days and adding debt to the club, there would be no complaining about it.

    How long are you and other Liverpool fans going to keep focusing on things that don't matter?! When are you going to start looking at the positive changes being made and the bright future that is clearly ahead?
    Why keep going on about having 'a spade in the ground within 60 days'?!  It's old and pointless, and there are sound economic reasons for that not happening.  Same goes for the debt thing - it is standard business practice to buy businesses this way.
    Liverpool fans are just clinging onto anything they can to continue having a go at the owners.  it makes them looks stupid and short-sighted.  And as i sad, it's like grown men complaining that their parents lied about Santa Claus.
    Get over it already.

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  49. Good, Glad we've got that sorted.  Did you hear that fellow Red men?  Jaimie says that if you believe that Hicks and Gillette's lies are an issue for you then you are stupid and shortsighted.

    As Stupid and shortsighted as Hicks and Gillette were when they made their press conference full of lies, oh no I'm sorry, mistaken representations?

    I can't help but note that you do not take up the cudgels on their downright lies about not loading the debt on the club.

    As far as the mancs are concerned, I don't give a toss if they go bust tomorrow, however I know mancs who can't help but wonder her the 80 million went for the show pony.

    Care to explain how we made our biggest profit ever last year, but still posted a loss after paying the interest on the debt?  Why were we asked to prove we were still a going concern at the start of the season?

    I look forward to receiving the keys to your house in the post.  I'll see what I can do about reducing the interest on your mortgage, but I'd tighten my belt a bit lad, theres a Credit Crunch on, soI might whore around a couple of your (my) bedrooms in return for some magic beans.  Hell I might even sell up if they offer me twice what I have promised to pay you for it one day.  Beans on Toast for you from now on, rather than foie gras.  Ring ANY bells Jaimie?

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  50. There is no danger at all of Liverpool ending up in financial difficulty, It is simply the media who want it to happen, It makes a good story!. There are many buyers desperate to do a deal but you need a seller first?, Purslow has said that 'the yanks' will not be selling but will welcome investors by diluting their shares. Liverpool has to be successful as they won't make money, unless the stadium is built, they can only build the stadium with investment!. Trust in Christian Purslow.

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  51. Man U have been spending £20m+ on individual players since 2001, and £30m sums were not frowned at soon after.

    That is what it takes to be the most successful premier league club over a decade.

    Rafa can't afford to make £28m mistakes in 2009.
    Man Utd did that in 2001 !!!
    Even the £20m Keane experiment was quickly aborted.
    He knew it wouldn't work and did something about it.

    Every player is an experiment. Man U's current £30m+ experiment started in 2008.

    Rafa chopping and changing around 70 players is good. If you can't beat 'em or join 'em, do whatever you can.

    He is constantly chipping away at the block.

    H+G have helped Liverpool by putting money on the table for the manager.
    Regardless of whose financial muscles were flexed, they were the ones who made £20m individual transfers (2007) a reality for Rafa.

    Houillier had to spend big to close the gap, it closed and opened again.

    Rafa is on the genius level.
    I'd rather he made the mistakes than the other non-genius managers out there.
    Until a player is in house, how will you know if it works or not?

    A high player turnover means a manager who knows what he's looking for and won't stop until the wheels are in place.

    Better to have 20 Kromkamps than one Veron, because in those 20, somewhere you find an Insua.

    Liverpool are a work in progress. Long may and will they progress under Rafa Benitez.

    Given time and effective resources for the TIME - Rafa will make the fergie dynasty look like a flash in the pan!

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  52. Nowadays, you have to go in debt to win titles and trophies. Hopefully not the Leeds/Newcastle way!

    That won't happen with Rafa - he is always looking for balance.

    Be it on the pitch or on the books.

    <span>20m – Torres,  (20m – Keane), 20m - Aquilani, 18.6m – Masch, 17m – Johnson
    16m - Dossena + Riera, 11m Babel and everyone else are debts in the pursuit of trophies. And they are ALSO a part of that £200m+ debt on the club, in fact, a £100m odd debt on the club and if those players were bought with loans and the club outright, interest payments would then be ok would they?</span>

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  53. OK guys, Enough please. I don't like to see Liverpool fans fighting with each other.

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  54. Theoretically anybody with cash, would rather start during an economic downturn than at any other point where labour and materials can be cheaper.

    Also Purslow is from the Royal Bank of Scotland and was put in charge as part of the deal that saw Hicks and Gillets loan repayments changed. They wanted him here so they have some power when it comes to decisions of the club.

    Thirdly the reason new investment in the club is possible is because Benitez has consitently got LFC into the latter stages of the Champions league, which is desirable for investors as the revenue generated by the champs league is massive compared to other competitions.

    The recession only started a year ago so justifying your claim about the stadium is utter nonsense, what about the 2 years before, they had to sort out the planning. I know for a fact that we paid several million pounds for steal, which was then going to be used only to be given back to the producers for free.

    At the end of the day the owners never paid a penny for the club, the club is paying for itself. Although the club cannot afford the interest repayments.

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