3 Sept 2009

Ryan Babel - Another victim of the 'Benitez effect'?

In April 2009, Holland coach Marco Van Basten criticised Rafael Benitez’s handling of Ryan Babel, noting that the player had taken a step backward since his arrival at Anfield. This week, Babel himself has publicly stated he wants to leave. Has Babel failed or is Rafa Benitez to blame for not giving the player a consistent chance? In my view, there is only one answer.

In April, Van Basten argued:

“If you look at Ryan Babel, it is a mortal sin he now sits on the bench at Liverpool. He was playing well in Holland and for the Under-21s but now he has taken a step backwards.”

This week, Babel made his frustration clear:

"There have been a lot of things promised but they haven't been followed up," Babel said. "I would get to play for more minutes and have more chances but, after the first defeat, I lost my place.

"Half a season at Ajax with a view to the World Cup wouldn't be a bad idea. I can add something to their squad. Loaning me out was not an option in the summer. Now we have agreed to review the situation in January."

Babel cost £11.5m and inarguably has huge potential - the question is has he been given the chance to fulfil that potential?

I would argue that the answer is NO.

As we've all seen, Rafa loves his facts, so let’s consider some facts about Ryan Babel:

2007-08: Babel’s first season

53 appearances

Starts - 29
Subbed – 21 times
On the bench - 24 times
Unused sub – 4 games

Analysis

- Subbed or on the bench in 82% of games
- Subbed in 72% of games started
- Scored 11 goals. On 10 occasions, dropped to the bench for the next game.

2008-09

42 appearances

Starts – 13
Subbed – 4 times
On the bench – 29 times
Unused sub – 6 times

Analysis

- Subbed or on the bench in 79% of games
- Subbed in 30% of games started
- 70% of games won with Babel starting
- Never started more than 2 games in a row for the entire season

GRAND TOTALS

93 appearances

42 Starts
Subbed – 25 times
On the bench – 51 times
Unused sub – 10 times

Analysis

- Subbed or on the bench in 82% of games
- Subbed in 60% of starts

Taking into account unused sub status

- In the squad 95 times
- Subbed or on the bench in 93% games

With these figures in mind, consider the following questions:

1. Has Babel been given any kind of chance to establish himself at Liverpool?

2. Has he been allowed to flourish in any way?

3. Has he been allowed a consistent run of games *ever*?

4. Given the fact that in his first season, he was dropped to the bench TEN TIMES after scoring goals, has he been treated fairly in this respect?

5. Is there any justification for such treatment of the player?

6. Has Benitez developed Babel's undoubted potential in the last 2 years?

The most important question for me is this: Do we want players to be treated this way at Liverpool FC?

The answer has to be no, yet some pigheaded fans just refuse to accept the truth that Rafa’s treatment of certain players over the years has been inexcusable.

Fans often seem to criticise Babel for his alleged lack of drive during his sporadic appearances, but how would you react when your manager has damaged your career, never given you a fair chance, constantly played you in the wrong position and made it abundantly clear that he has no faith in you?

For some reason, the 'Rafa can do no wrong' brigade are unwilling to accept that it is practically impossible for a player to get into any kind of rhythm/build understanding with team-mates/build confidence etc when subjected to the kind of treatment meted out to Robbie Keane, Babel, and before them, Peter Crouch.

This kind of treatment is one of the principal reasons I am not a fan of Benitez and his way of doing things. Fans might not care about the likes of Keane and Babel, but just watch them change their tune when one of their favourites starts suffering from the Benitez effect.

If Ryan Babel wants to save his career and actually progress as a player, he has only one option: leave Liverpool and go to a club where he will treated fairly and given a consistent chance to prove himself.

For any player, leaving Liverpool can only be a step down, but Benitez has made it unambiguously clear that he is NEVER going to give Babel a proper chance. And after the player's comments this week, Benitez is unlikely to be persuaded to give him a run of games in the future.

Benitez apologists will predictably be on Babel's back over his comments, but I totally support him and
completely understand his frustration.

And I
hope that Babel does actually move in January, because to stay at the club under the Benitez regime would be continued career suicide


120 comments:

  1. On the other hand the man has played 95 games in that time. So he got subbed in many games. . .who cares? He is a player in an advanced position and as such can expect to be rotated a lot more that defensive type. Secondly his performances have not been up to par and the manager's responsibility is to the team as a whole. Leaving a weak player on when you have other options would be bad for the team so well done Rafa. Babel needs to step it up and give his all.
    Lucas gets slagged week in and week out yet his work rate is excellent. There is the difference

    ReplyDelete
  2. So you think the fact that he's been subbed or on the bench in 93% of games is fair?  Being subbed 10 times after scoring goals is fair?  Benitez signed Babel for 11.5m remember?  How has he given him a fair chance?

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    I totally agree with you Jamie. Its a point i have been trying to make to friends of mine for the last few seasons.

    Let me get it straight i don’t hate the man or think he should be sacked but his man management skills are atrocious, as far as i am concerned he was the main reason Alonso left and crouch and as for his treatment of Keane that just beggars belief.

     I cannot understand why for some players he will bend over backwards to the point of total stubbornness and yet cast aside others without giving any chance or reason for doing so.

    I know other people posting on here will simplify your article by saying he is crap but to be honest like you have said he has never played his proper position for Liverpool and his first season was impressive.

    ReplyDelete
  4. And he hasn't played 95 games; that would suggest 95 full games. Between 2007 and 2009 he played only 42 full games.

    ReplyDelete
  5. He's crap & he know's he is. He hasn't improved since day one. I wish he had. Fact is he hasn't. Should've moved him on for all concerned in the summer transfer market. An expensive import that hasn't worked in the prem'. Time to move on.

    ReplyDelete
  6. how do his appearance,subs, goals, and winning percentage statistics compare with those of the other left wingers in the squad?

    i might be wrong but rafa has a habit of subbing out the wingers (kuyt is an exception) because of the tremendous amount of work he requires of them in his playing system.

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    I totally agree with you Jamie. Its a point i have been trying to make to friends of mine for the last few seasons.

    Let me get it straight i don’t hate the man or think he should be sacked but his man management skills are atrocious, as far as i am concerned he was the main reason Alonso left and crouch and as for his treatment of Keane that just beggars belief.

    I cannot understand why for some players he will bend over backwards to the point of total stubbornness and yet cast aside others without giving any chance or reason for doing so.

    I know other people posting on here will simplify your article by saying he is crap but to be honest like you have said he has never played his proper position for Liverpool and his first season was impressive.

    ReplyDelete
  8. If you want to play regularly, then you have to play well.  Babel has consistently failed to live up to his apparent potential.  The way he responds to set-backs is also a problem.  He is more of a sulker than a fighter.  If you're raking in a footballer's wage, and your job is as a footballer, you need to respond to set-backs with professionalism, working harder to prove yourself and EARN your place in the team.  If you repeatedly give up, and then moan to the press, then you are not made of the right stuff.  The guy is more of a Chelsea prima donna, but without any of the skill.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Haha you just wont quit will you?!?!

    The only person to blame for the position Ryan Babel finds himself in, is Ryan Babel. First season he wasnt actually as good as people seem to think. He had half a dozen or so games where he looked excellent and scored some goals. To be honest he's been living on the impact he made against Arsenal in the CL ever since, and he's only digressed as a player (that means got worse Jaimie).

    WHEN he does leave, which I suspect will be in January, he'll go to a weak league and he'll look a worldbeater. All his time at Liverpool has proven is that he hasnt got the bottle to be a success in a big league. And above all, he simply hasnt got the talent. He's quick and he's got a hard short on him, thats it. He's got less technical ability than John Arne Riise, his attitude is worse than Pennants, he works about as hard as Matt Le Tissier and his football brain is proportionate to the size of a Stegosaurus brain IE peanut sized. He isnt a good player.

    As for not being a fan of how Rafa does things and then using Keane, Crouch and Babel as examples  :-D . Brilliant. One of them is stinking up the bench at Spurs, one of them is stinking up the pitch at Spurs and one of them cant even get on the bench to stink it up at Liverpool, and once El Zhar, Aquilani, Aurelio and Agger are fit he will have very, very few minutes on the pitch. Keane, Crouch and Babel are your reasons for Rafa doing things the wrong way? What about Gerrard, Torres, Reina, Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Aurelio, Johnson and Riera maybe as proof that he does things exactly the right way and players with a shit attitude are the ones that fall by the wayside.

    Babel would have done well to follow Lucas example and keep his head down amid criticism. Or follow Kuyts example of how hard work can make up for a lack in technique. Or follow Yossis example that if you keep making a good impact from the bench, you'll get more chances from the start. But no. He followed Pennants example. He thought that a couple of good games suddenly made him a superstar, didnt bother improving himself and knuckling down and spent more time trying to become a rap star. And he isnt very good at that either.

    Sorry Jaimie, but it really is another poor article. And the more poor articles you post, the poorer a reputation you'll get. Just a fact mate, sorry. Babel isnt a very good player. We all understand that you dont like Rafa, not many non-Liverpool fans do (which is what you CLEARLY are) but there really are better ways of getting your point across than bigging up someone like Ryan Babel. Here's a hint for your next one, and you might get less stick: Momo Sissoko. He's doing brilliantly for Juve since he left. Discuss.

    ReplyDelete
  10. If he's 'crap' as you put it then that calls Benitez's transfer dealings into question once again.  With Keane and Babel combined, it's 31m wasted.

    I don't think Babel is a rubbish player - he just hasn't been given a proper chance, as his stats undoubtedly prove.

    He has not had a chance to build up any rhythm or understanding with his team-mates and Benitez has crushed his confidence and development with repeatedly subbing him and leaving him on the bench.

    I'd love to hear how people justify the fact Babel dropped TEN TIMES after scoring goals in his first season.  How is this good man-managment?!  How does this build the player's confidence?  How does this treatment benefit the player AT ALL?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Oh, and you talk about being played in the wrong position. What pray tell is the right position for Ryan Babel? And please for the love of god dont say right wing or as a striker, cos he's played there before and been even worse than he is on the left.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Whether you like it nor not, Babel's natural position is striker.  Has he ever been given a chance there? NO.  Given the fact that Liverpool actually NEED a backup striker (!) it's even more ridiculous that Benitez doesn't utilise him there.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Liverpool need self motivated strong characters not cry babies!

    Ryan Babel showed nothing in 3 games and needs to take a leaf from Yossi Benayouns book! last year Yossi was showing the same form and making the same noises. By channeling his anger he propelled himself into arguably Liverpools best performer in the second half of last season. Leading to a new contract and the trust of the fans.

    instead of moaning he should work harder and make himself undropable!

    ReplyDelete
  14. you are always the fastest to blame rafa whenever things went wrong. Even faster than Man Utd fans.
    Rafa Benitez - Again the victim of of 'Kanwar' effect? Fans of liverpool fc, what do you all think?

    ReplyDelete
  15. You talk about earning your place in the team. Well, in 2007-8 Babel was dropped 10 times after scoring goals.  Did he not do enough to earn a run in the team there?  He scores a goal and does his job; Benitez drops him the next game. Once or twice is understandable, but TEN TIMES?

    That sort of treatment is a disgrace, and it's no wonder Babel feels hard-done by.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I partly agree with what he is saying but i also agree partly with Bryan. Babel needs to work alot harder and not be lazy, too many times he has been caught out not because he has poor ball control but because his mind isnt always on the game. He expects the ball to just come to him then he runs towards goal and shoots (and fails). The talent is there but not the work ethic. Someone needs to tell him that he needs to ask for the ball more and get involved more.

    ReplyDelete
  17. What is this based upon exactly? At Ajax and for Holland he has played left side of a three pronged strikeforce, aka LEFT WINGER. The role he is given at Liverpool is slightly different, means he has to do a bit more defensive work and use his brain a bit more but he cant.

    The fact you'd want someone like Ryan Babel to come in when Torres wasnt available just shows that your opinion is utter tripe of the highest order.

    ReplyDelete
  18. 'The Benitez Effect?' Please define, because I was aware that 'The Benitez Effect' was to go from UEFA obscurity to Champions league heavyweights. The same 'Effect' that won us the European cup from 3-0 down at half time. The 'Effect' that has us punching above our financial weight, and competing with teams far more cash rich than ourselves. How do Babel's stats copmare to Riera or Benayoun's, who are in front of him on merit?

    You'll be wanting 'The Benitez effect back' when he leaves us, just like Valencia did. 

    ReplyDelete
  19. I toatally agree with you Jamie its a point i have been trying to make to friends for the last couple of seasons.

    Let me get it straight i dont hate the man or feel he should be sacked but his man mangement skills are atrocious and as far as i am concerned he is the reason alonso and crouch left and as for his treatment of keane that just beggars belief.

    I cannot understand why some players he will bend over backwards to the point of stubbornness and yet cast aside others without giving them a chance or a reasoon why, keane to this day does not know what he did to warrant that treatment.

    Its easy to simplify this by saying babbel is a poor player but he was very impressive that first season and i think it runs deeper that that.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Scoring goals should make you undroppable, shouldn't it?  As I've repeated already, Babel was dropped ten times after scoring in his first season. 

    Please explain how this treatment by Benitez is fair.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I told you before Bruce - if you include insults in your replies I will delete them.  Stick to the issues.  If you want to slag me off, email me or leave your comments in the general discussion thread.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Hey all Reds fan
    I so his peformance against spurs in the first match this season, and as allways with Babel, totally anonemouse. He is a squad player who is better when he come in the second half as a subplayer.

    ReplyDelete
  23. This is the problem with the internet I'm afraid JR85. If someone is really desperate to create an anti-LFC site and disguise it as a Liverpool fansite, then the resources are there. And thats what this Kanwar figure has done. He wouldnt dare use his real name which is why an anagram of the name is WANKAR. But I bet he feels really clever and vibrant that he came up with it :D 
     
    He IS a Manchester United fan. All we can do as Liverpool fans is reply to his bile and correct him. The whole internet world can see what a clown he is, and I'm sure he can as well.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Son't dodge the issue - address the questions in the article: Has Benitez treated babel fairly?

    ReplyDelete
  25. The Benitez effect: wasting the talent of good players by constantly dropping them/subbing them for no fair reason; playing good players out of position; stubbornly refusing to utilise LFC assets in a way that benefits the club.  Common examples of this include (amongst others) Crouch, Keane, Babel and Benayoun.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I don't think we know if he really is a striker, but we know he isn't a left winger. His first touch is poor, has no left foot, can't hold the ball up, he has no 'tricks', only rarely goes past people (and that's by belting the ball upfield and running faster) and definitely has a bad attitude.

    I agree with you that Benitez has detroyed his confidence, but really, I just don't think he has the technique or attitude to be a top flight footballer, never mind a good one. Kind of like Darius Vassell with a harder shot but even worse technique.

    Personally, being able to put thirty yard passess with either foot myself, I cannot understand how a professional footballer can be so lazy as to be so one footed. I practiced every night until sundown with both feet until eventually my swinger was as good as my right foot. I mean, when not at school, I had a ball at my feet from seven in the morning until eight at night from the age of six to the age of eighteen and some of these 'professionals' boast of staying behind after training (at midday) to 'practice shooting' or 'practice free kicks' for thirty minutes.

    What the hell is Babbel doing if he isn't spending all afternoon practicing with his left foot? Recording rap songs I hear. If he wants to complain, the sort of thing we will listen to is: 'I want to spend all afternoon working on my technique but the liverpool coaches won't let me'. Not 'I want to go to the world cup' or 'I want more minutes ahead of players with more skill and application'.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Good Article,

    Rafael's man managemebnt skills have been highlighted by senior players as well.
    Some need praise and Rafa isn't known for giving it.
    I suspect that despite attempts to blame Players that Rafael MUST shoulder the responsibility as well.
    Alonso didn't WANT to leave until the Gareth Barry Saga, Robbie Keane didn't become a bad player as can be seen on his return to Tottenham.
    It's as if most players have to fit Rafa's personality and he is unable to deal with different personalities.

    I would Rather Ryan Babel leave to make the point that Rafa needs to improve his personel skills.
    Player tend to want to come to Liverpool FC not because of Rafa.

    Doesn't matter what you do in life if you have tyhe right personel skills it can make life a lot easier.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I don't care how he feels, his attitude is not professional, nor that of a maturing player.  In 3 seasons I can't remember him having a great game for us.  His goals were never great, or particularly memorable.  The one against Arsenal in the CL was a result of them chasing the game, and him being left in acres of space.  The goal against United last season was a miss-kick, and any other events have been forgettable at best.  If you can list 5 great performances from Babel during his time at Liverpool (and justify why they were great), then I would be surprised.  I would argue that as a Liverpool player, in order to keep your place, you need a lot more than 5 great performances in one season, let alone three, and I can't remember a single one from Ryan.  I don't have anything against the kid, he just never fails to underwhelm.

    ReplyDelete
  29. You might as well stop posting Bruce - your IP is banned, therefore all your posts are automatically kept off the site.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dear Mr Kanwar,

    I'm so sorry for upsetting you with my 'Benitez effect' reply. I hope you're not distressed in any way. Thanks for deleting it, because nobody really wanted to know what you meant by the 'Benitez Effect' anyway.

    You're so right, you should be managing liverpool, not Mr Benitez. I shall personally recommend you. If you can't debate, don't blog.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Spot on, Septimus.  Alonso didn't want to leave until the Barry saga.  Benitez is directly repsonsible for pushing him out of the club.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Babel has had ample opportunity. Who is striking the ball? Babel or Benitez? Subbed, not subbed, start games, last 10 minutes, whatever. He plays football with these guys everyday in training. There is no lack of time on the pitch or experience (2 years in the prem). He's a dud and it has nothing to do with anyone but himself.

    Is Rafa shouting 'miss', 'give the ball away', from the touchline? You've clearly embraced the media hype surround this waste of a squad number!

    ReplyDelete
  33. Jimmy - what are you on about?  I haven't deleted your post.  I replied to it.  Here is your comment:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/09/ryan-babel-another-victim-of-benitez.html#jsid-1251991679-864

    and here is my reply:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/09/ryan-babel-another-victim-of-benitez.html#jsid-1251992395-528

    I only delete abusive comments.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I agree with you Steve - Babel doesn't seem to have the technique or attitude to be a top-flight footballer.  However, if that's the case, why did Benitez spend 11.5m on him?  if Babel really is a dud, then that's a waste of a lot of money, just like the 20m on Keane.

    I think Babel had the potential and the talent but he has not been developed in the last 2 years, mainly because of Benitez's mismanagement.

    ReplyDelete
  35. The point made by Jaimie has to be accepted by all, even by the pro Benitez fans of which I am one. Rafa should afford him 3-4 games, God knows he has done it for Lucas far too long. There is also another point to be taken on board and that is that young expensive imports like Babel are not knew to the premier league, when they join one of the big 4 clubs, they generally have to break into the Team from the subs bench, through multiple substitute appearances, if they have the quality they get into the first 11. It can be argued Benitez has gone this route with Babel but he has not shown the quality to establish himself as a first team regular???

    ReplyDelete
  36. Bruce - if you're going to make threats, you might not want to do it on the net where your IP address is tracked.  Just a thought ;)

    ReplyDelete
  37. Good points.  I'd agree to an extent.  Does Babel really have the quality to make it?  I guess we'll never know whilst he's at Liverpool.  It's a lost cause now anyway - the only way Babel can resurrect his careers is to move.  Marco Van Basten seems to think Babel has the talent; he said in his quote (in the article) that he was playing well for Ajax.  He just hasn't progressed at Liverpool.

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  38. Babel has done himself no favours. I believe he's been given the chance but he hasn't taken it.

    Your argument that he had been dropped 10 times after scoringa goal is partly valid, but you have to look at the whole display sometimes. Torres scores but he also does a lot more. He defends from the front like Rush used to do. He hassles defenders and goalkeepers, puts pressure on them when we don't have the ball. Babel does not do this. At times he has been anonymous in a game. He may pop up with a goal every so often but his work ethic isn't there.

    Look at Dirk Kuyt. He works harder than any player in the team, and whilst we were all dismissive of the workhorse to begin with, we see how valuable he is to us. He doesn't have the flair but makes up for it work hard work and we love him for it. Babel has the flair but doesn't do the work. He doesn't track back, he doesn't like tacking. I've not seen a player duck out of more 50/50 challenges.

    The team is a unit the way it has been set up by Rafa. And unfortunately I don't think Babel's work ethic fits into it, which is why he is used sporadically and mostly as a sub.

    If Babel has been a failure it is all his own fault.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I think a lot of fans like you believe supporting LFC would mean supporting the manager IN ALL OCCASIONS and that your manager can NEVER BE WRONG. Even if he does, you guys would think of all those senseless excuses: E.g.
    1) When Rafa signed a bad player or keep on using a player when the team isn't playing well, you guys will say "Rafa knows a lot more than us. So there must be something that we don't know about this player. Give him more time.
    2) When Rafa missed out on a bargain player which other teams sign, you guys will say there must be something wrong with this player that we don't know but rafa does.
    3) And when the team start losing by Rafa's tactics, you guys will blame the Yanks for not backing him up with $.
    4) And when it comes to things that cannot be explained, you guys will say no one will do a better job than rafa in this circumstances.
    I am not saying the Yanks should not be blamed, but I do feel sorry for your utter ignorance between supporting LFC and supporting a manager. True, Rafa has taken LFC to another level, but that doesn't mean that there are things that he could have done better. The same logic applies when you hope your son improve in certain area, but it doesn't mean that you don't like your son.

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  40. He scroed the majority of his goals in the first season coming from the bench. So to say he was dropped to the bench after scoing those goals is wrong. He was just used as a sub again. When Babel has started matches he has flattered to decieve. He has all the attributes to suceed yet he fails too often.

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  41. I think the stats you present give a different message. In his first season Babel was given plenty of games, plenty of starts. Since he didn't quite do the job that was needed he was subbed and subsequently played less. I don't really see how that can be considered mismanagement, I think it's entirely appropriate. It's up to the player to prove his worth and every time he steps out on to the pitch he fails to do that. 

    But I can see your point, even if you don't explain it particularly well, I just think it is ultimately a difference of opinion between you and the manager. Rafa does not believe in giving players strings of games to find form therefore players who don't do well in that environment will not succeed. Keane and Babel are two perfect examples but there are countless examples going the other way. Crouch, as you mentioned, was used quite sporadically but it did nothing to hurt his form. If anything, Peter was a better player when Rafa did use him. Benayoun also seems to flourish under this kind of system. Our full backs are constantly rotated but this doesn't seem to bother them. Insua has progressed very impressively under Rafa's methods and Aurelio and Arbeloa never suffered or complained. 

    I suspect in the end that your scorn for Benitez is misplaced. Every manager has a style and there will always be players who don't fit. Some players will tire of not enough game time, like Crouch, and be sold for a profit. Some players like Keane will clearly suffer under the system and be quickly sold. Babel is a bit more of a long term project but I think this current story is just a bit of a whine on his part. I still think he has come along as a player, it's just that Rafa is demanding more of him that other managers would. He does not believe that talent alone is good enough and Babel has to work harder and make better decisions. If he comes through it and actually does turn out to be a great player for us then it will be because of Rafa. If he doesn't then is it really such a big problem? Has it cost us games? I think the only problem is the media coverage and articles like this making a big deal out of virtually nothing. 

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  42. You mention Crouch and Benayoun, but I would say that Crouch had a pretty successful time of it at Liverpool. Remeber that Rafa continued to play him in 19 games before he scored. That's pretty patient for a manager. And we all know that Rafa didn't want to lose Crouch, he left because he wanted to be playing regularly, and as second choice to Torres he knew that his time on the pitch would be limited. Or are you saying that we should have put him in there, thus getting rid of the the partnership of Torres with Gerrard behind him, whcih has been our most successful striking partnmership since Rush/Beardsley.

    And why mention benayoun. He's now a regular first team player. What has Rafa done wrong there?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Jamie,

    Do you ever go to games? Have you ever seen how poor this lad is?

    I was talking to a premier league manager recently and he told me that a lot of managers "don't have the bottle to do what Benitez does". I asked him to explain and he said "take Robbie Keane for example". "He wasnt good enough for Liverpool so Rafa let him go as quickly as he could".

    Doesn't it strike you as a little strange that young Ryan only started bleating the day after the window closed and whilst he was with Holland.

    Rafa likes players that don't need their arses wiping and get on with their highly paid job. If you aren't 100% committed you're out of the door.

    That's what we need.

    ReplyDelete
  44. My mistake - apologies to you. Found it now.

    Re 'Benitez Effect': Players like Insua, Carragher and Gerrard, Kuyt, Alonso, Aurellio, Arbeloa and more have all benefited under Benitez, and pushed on to a higher Standard. Benitez doesn't 'cuddle' players the way Houllier did - but with Rafa it comes down to one thing. Teamwork. If babel is not doing a job for the team (ie, losing possession 9 times out of 10), regardless of goals scored, he's crippling the team play' He doesn't defend, He has pace but can't beat a man, and won't challenge for 50/50 balls. Benitez likes the right attitude, but Babel hasn't got that either. He waits for the day after the transfer window closes, and bleats to the press about his woes. That's the mark of a coward.
    For me, Benayoun has proved his worth to the first team, Riera is getting there. Babel is a disappointment.
    42 games? Really? that's more than I thought, because he goes missing in so many, I didn't realise he was on.
    How many squad players are 'Promised' anything by Benitez? One it seems. Ryan Babel. Well, he promised Babel a starting spot. He got it against spurs and blew it.

    ReplyDelete
  45. You kno what Jamie.....This is not fair on Rafa. Babel has not impressed. simple as that. Why the hell would Rafa try and play him mopre if he does not give us quality? I suppose you would just lose games and play players that are not up to scratch. When that happens, I dont doubt you would also blame that on Rafa for not selecting players that can win games.

    So lets racap:
    Zonal Marking - Rafa's Fault?
    Our defensive issues - Rafa's Fault?
    Us not signing more players - oh wait its Rafa's fault.
    American owners - Rafa's Fault

    Come on I think you can think of a few more issues to put at his feet.

    Get behind Rafa....there is no point being against him. He is doing a BLOODY great job in my opinion.

    YNWA

    ReplyDelete
  46. Gary - Benitez had to play Crouch at the beginning otherwise he would've been criticised for the signing.  In his second season, Crouch was Liverpool's top scorer. Even after Torres arrived, he was the club's top scored in the CL for a while.  There was even a time when Crouch's record was 38 goals scored/created in 43 starts, yet this was *still* not good enough for Benitez, who continued to drop him/sub him and not play him. 

    The CL final in 2007 is a prime example of this.  Crouch should have started.  His form dicated he should start; ore-game, Milan were terrified of playing against Crouch.  Benitexz leaves him on the bench and brings him on for a pathetic 5 minute cameo at the end.

    Crouch should have started, but Benitez plays Zenden instead.  Why?  it's irrational and doesn't make sense.

    And Benayoun is hardly a first team regular.  At the tail end of last season he started getting games but before that, he was another one who was always on the bench/being subbed.

    And this season, benyoun has been on the bench twice and subbed once in 4 games!

    ReplyDelete
  47. I think we can put too much store in what Van Basten says. Like many great players he has yet to prove himself as a great manager or developer of talent. Wenger, who is a great developer of talent, looked very hard at Babbel, didn't buy him and has shown no interest in taking him off our hands. I know whose opinion on kids I trust more. I Holland they all thought Wnger was crazy for taking Van persie but right now,  I'd have him in our squad over Babbel like a shot.

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  48. Yes, I do go to games, but Babel is not as 'poor' as you make out.  And why do you disregard the coinfidence factor here?  benitez has totally crushed Babel's confidence, which will have a knock on effect on his performances.  Only last week, Benitez was criticising him publicly!

    If Keane and Babel are as bad as you say, then why did Benitez waste 31m of the clubs money on them?!

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  49. My reply to this has vanished.

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  50. I think Rafa wants to see a response from the player. If you get subbed it usually has a reason. Played poorly, lack of fitness or merely tactical issues. Babel did not respond in a positive way. He continues playing poorly and I am not convinced that he would make a great back-up for Torres. On the right wing though he may be able to beat his opponent, unlike Kuyt, but then there is his lack of work-rate. Babel should be ready to sacrifice himself (or his claim to play in his favourite position) for the cause of the club who pays his wages.

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  51. Re Wenger - he didn't want to pay 11m for a 20 year old, which is fair enough.  Doesn't mean he didn't rate Babel - he did - just not at that price.

    Benitez paid over the odds *again*, and this just goes to show the disparity between Wenger and Benitez when it comes to judging players.

    if the fee was lower, Babel would have gone to Arsenal; and I have no doubt he would be a superstar by now.

    ReplyDelete
  52. By your article and responses......Benayoun should have been gone during the transfer window. For some reason he has increased his effort and productivity and yet still he doesn't regularly start but we don';t se him moping abiout the place do we. Bottom line is that Babel has to do a better job with the chance he get. El Zhar has done better than Babel has done and they have been used in similar ways.

    And one comment on the Benitez Effect. U can't have it both ways. if u want to kill him for the "bad" then ub have to give him max credity for the good. And at the end of the day there is no doubt that Liverpool IS a better squad now than when he came in.

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  53. That sums it up, really. Great post.

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  54. I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hasn't he developed because of Rafa's mismanagement or was he mismanaged because he refused to developed. In this case I'd rather go for the latter.

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  55. I believe that when Babel was purchased we were purchasing potential. It cannot be  said that Babel has lived up to that potential. Players who score often get subbed. When you have scored and the game is all but over do you think some players get a "feel good" moment when walking of the pitch with the Kop applouding them. Might make them want to feel that again. Just a thought. As for Rafas man management. Well I believe Rafa stuck it out with Crouch what ever the critics had to say about his goal drought. It would be interesting see know what you thought at that time. Yes, Rafa tried to sell Alonso for Barry funding. He must of had his reasons. Alonso had been in a 2 season slump. We Manu or Chelsea kind of backing he wouldnt had to try to sell him. Lets not forget that it was Rafa that brought in Alonso and transformed him from a good but mostly unknown players into a worldclass players. Keane, well he had plenty of chances but didnt deliver. You can look up that stats for the Keane/Gerrard, Torres/Keane and Torres/Gerrard combos and see for yourself which set gave us the most goals and assists. I was exctied about Keane but ultimaltley HE failed. He is fine when playing for Tottenham against opposition against teams looking to play but with Liverpool where teams only go for a point he couldnt cut it and returned like faulty goods. Rafa has faults I´m sure, but to lay the blame soley at his feet is ignoring the FACTS.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Steve - what reply?  This one?

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/09/ryan-babel-another-victim-of-benitez.html#jsid-1251992506-399

    None of your posts have been deleted/captured by the spam filter.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Babel was bought just after the youth World Championships where he was one of the highlights, if not the highlight of that Dutch team. Thats y he commanded an $11.5M figure. Based on ur astute analysis and opinion Real Madrid have done a piss poor job as well in developing Royston Drenthe. He too was highly regarded coming out of that tournament but has failed to make a mark. If a youth player doesn't develop as his talent suggest u can't jus blame it on the manager. Some players just aren't capable of making it on the next level.

    As an example the are US collegiate basketball players who are excellent at the college level but when they get to the NBA they're not nearly as successful.

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  58. I think you are wrong about a few things you wrote here. Benayoun finally showed his real abiltiy and potention when he was used more regularly and less rotated. Arbeloa wasn't roateted and the only reason Aurelio suffers from rotation is that he rotates himself by being made of crisps. Insua has progressed very impressively, right, but you would expect that from a young lad who's breaking into the first team and then gets a few run outs. If he hadn't improved or progressed, he would have been rotated back to the reserves in no time.

    ReplyDelete
  59. "not had any chance to build up any hythm or understanding with his team mates"?

    Who does he train with?

    You clearly don't understand your own argument.

    ReplyDelete
  60. I honestly think you're making too much out of this. You constantly come back to how he's wasted money but that's not true. The final sums should show that he only "wasted" 4 million on Keane and no money yet has been lost on Babel. Both of these players were in the team last season and yet we still produced our best league performance in over 20 years. 

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  61. Understanding and ryhthm is built up through games and minutes on the pitch, not in five a side training games. Do you dispute this?

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  62. If Keane and Babel are as bad as you say, then why did Benitez waste 31m of the clubs money on them?!

    Do you expect Rafa to automatically know if they willl work out at Anfield?

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  63. This is just nonsense. Babel isn't good enough - poor touch no football sense, no fight, can't head a ball to save his life. The sooner he is gone the better. Also Van Basten's quote came just before he was sacked. Rafa made a mistake in buying his second choice player when he wanted better - Simao

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  64. Yes I do. He's training with players of a much higher standard than the rest of the premiership. We finished 2nd last season, He's playing for/against "top two" quality on the training pitch almost every day. When you see him in the first team you'd think he was the new lad.

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  65. Benayoun EARNED those regular call ups because when he was playing sporadically he produced and did what was asked of him. It's not the other way around, and we know that because the whole point of this thread is that Rafa doesn't gift struggling players with extra games unless he absolutely has to. I mention Arbeloa and Aurelio because, to be honest, I struggle to think of more players who have suffered from this so-called Benitez effect. Everyone in the team seems to do just fine except for the ones we talk about the most like Keane and Babel. Seriously, who else has had a similar kind of problem where Benitez has supposed made a player worse during his time at the club?

    ReplyDelete
  66. Are you seriously deleting posts you don't agree with and then pretending that they were never there? Seriously? There was a clown who set up a Liverpool website that was linked to by Newsnow a few years ago. Once newsnow revoked the link it sank without trace. If you behave like this, you will find people emailing the newsnow organisers, which would be a shame as genuine 'critical realism on LFC' has an audience on web.

    ReplyDelete
  67. I know what Keane did: he didn't fit into the system and he didn't bring the right attitude to what Benitez asked of him. It's not complicated but everyone seems to think it's a big mystery. Why exactly does he have to explain himself to anyone? We bought a player, it didnt' work out, we sold the player straight away. That's excellent management and how he talks to the player or says nice things to them often enough is completely irrelavent. Keane was given plenty of chances but what he produced was not good enough for the club, not the way Rafa viewed. Our points and goals total at the end of the season COMPLETELY justifies that decision, 100%. Of course you can question the purchase in the first place, but you have to respect his ability to take a hard decision and make the best of what turned out to be an unsuitable player. 

    ReplyDelete
  68. Another reply vanished.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Stevie - don't make stupid, unfounded accusations.  I never delete posts that don't agree with me.  90% of responses seem to disagree with me - in this thread for example - so why haven't I deleted those?

    I welcome disagreement, and this has been proved in the three years this site has been online.  I only ever delete posts if they contravene the comment policy, which is clearly displayed below.

    What possible incentive is there for me to delete posts that disagree with me?!   I like debate; it makes no sense.

    And my detractors have already tried the Newsnow censorship route, but it was ignored.  A group of people tried to have my site removed because they couldn't hack criticism of the club.  They failed.

    I repeat once more: I have not deleted any of your posts.  I suspect it's a similar case to Jimmy earlier on'; he couldn't find one of his posts but then he found it - it had just gone onto a different page.

    With threaded commenting, posts will move to different pages sometimes because the longer the thread, the more space it takes up on a particular page.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Stevie - please don't make unfounded accusations.  I never delete posts that don't agree with me.  90% of responses seem to disagree with me - in this thread for example - so why haven't I deleted those?  
     
    I welcome disagreement, and this has been proved in the three years this site has been online.  I only ever delete posts if they contravene the comment policy, which is clearly displayed below.  
     
    What possible incentive is there for me to delete posts that disagree with me?!   I like debate; it makes no sense.  
     
    And my detractors have already tried the Newsnow censorship route, but it was ignored.  A group of people tried to have my site removed because they couldn't hack criticism of the club.  They failed.  
     
    I repeat once more: I have not deleted any of your posts.  I suspect it's a similar case to Jimmy earlier on'; he couldn't find one of his posts but then he found it - it had just gone onto a different page.  
     
    With threaded commenting, posts will move to different pages sometimes because the longer the thread, the more space it takes up on a particular page.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Stevie - none of your replies have vanished.  I have double checked and all the replies you have made are present and accounted for.  As I explained in my previous post, they have probably moved to a different page as a result of threaded comments taking up space.

    ReplyDelete
  72. In our system, there is no way that Babel would fit in. Do you think he has the capabilities to play as a lone striker. All you talk about  is critisizing Rafa. You say Rafa is bad in man management. Here s an example to prove you otherwise. Even everyone was bullying Luca, Rafa stood up for him. He protected Lucas and praised him in interviews. 95 appearances (whether starts or sub) in 2 years should be enough to show what you have. Take Lucas for eg, in the past year he got very less playing as alonso and masch were playing in midfield, but still Lucas kept his head down and gave his all whenever he has appeared.  Lucas was voted best player in brazil league. But he was not complaining about being a sub or playing little. So please kanwar say something sensible.

    ReplyDelete
  73. In our system, there is no way that Babel would fit in. Do you think he has the capabilities to play as a lone striker. All you talk about  is critisizing Rafa. You say Rafa is bad in man management. Here s an example to prove you otherwise. Even when everyone was bullying Luca, Rafa stood up for him. He protected Lucas and praised him in interviews. 95 appearances (whether starts or sub) in 2 years should be enough for a player to show what you have. Take Lucas for eg, in the past year he got very less playing time as alonso and masch were playing in midfield, but still Lucas kept his head down and gave his all whenever he appeared.  Lucas was voted best player in brazil league. But still he was not complaining about being a sub or playing little in our team. So please kanwar say something sensible.

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  74. Ryan babel is the new Diouf - infact diouf was a far superior talent at least he had the aggression and determination to fight for something.
    Babel is just a lazy one trick pony. I doubt he would even get in a blackburn team

    ReplyDelete
  75. I have looked and that isn't the case. I welcome your point of view. Many of them make me laugh, but there is no place for encouraging people to post and then removing argued points simply because there is no straight forward reply. Now, you tell that you have not done this and of course I will take your word for it. You must therefore have a software problem. Two of my posts in response to your replies were on the screen for ten minutes or so, and now are definitely not.

    By all means slag off Benitez or what I say,  but there's little point in visiting if we make an effort to construct a debate only to have them disappear (accidentally or otherwise) ten minutes later. Newsnow link on quality not on opinions -  the last thing I want is to censor you - but they want to know they are linking to quality sites and I hope yours will continue to improve. 

    You're like the loud kid in class who we occasionally laugh at, occasionally beat up but always give the loud role to in the school play. Frequently wrong, frequently annoying, but never boring, so don't spoil it, intentionally or otherwise!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Stevie - don't patronise me or presume to tell me what type of sites NewsNow accept.  To be honest, you don't like this site, or me or think I'm like the 'loud kid in class', then don't visit the site.  I'm interested in people arguing the points, not desperately trying to prove to everyone how crap I am.  None of your posts have been deleted.  End of story.  There may well be occasional issues where posts are lost due to technical hitches bit those are few and far between.  The bottom line is, however, that I have not deliberately deleted any of your posts.

    ReplyDelete
  77. That's a disappointing reply.

    It would appear that you are what you appear to be. I thought you were just playing a persona to wind people up and get your hit rate up,  but your on-screen persona actually is who you are.

    I'll take one of your more sensible pieces of advice and go elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Oh please.  Disappointing replay?  In this thread, you've accused me several times of deleting your posts; slyly suggested that the site is not of good enough 'quality' to be listed on newsnow and denigrated me personally for no good reason.To be honest, I can't be bothered to waste my time constantly trying to justify myself, so perhaps it is better if you go elsewhere.  You clearly have an issue with me and the site, so whats the point in you wasting your time here?

    And I do not put on a persona to 'wind people up' and get hits.  i tell it like I see it.  The reason you perceive me in that manner is because my opinions are different to yours.  if everything I wrote conformed with your view of Liverpool then you'd be singing my praises.  Just because that's not the case, there must be something wrong with me?!

    Utter nonsense.

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  79. He dosent show the talent that everyone talks about. When you get a chance you must grab it. He dosent. For example the tottenham game. Also he is NOT a natural stiker. When he came to the club he even said that he used to play on the left side of a three man attack. He played up top in the euros. Not 4 ajax.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Oh please.  Disappointing reply?  In this thread, you've accused me several times of deleting your posts;  suggested that the site is not of good enough 'quality' to be listed on newsnow; patronised me and denigrated me for no good reason.

    To be honest, I can't be bothered to waste my time constantly trying to justify myself, so perhaps it is better if you go elsewhere.  You clearly have an issue with me and the site, so whats the point in you wasting your time here? 
     
    And I do not put on a persona to 'wind people up' and get hits.  I tell it like I see it.  The reason you perceive me in that manner is because my opinions are different to yours.  if everything I wrote conformed with your view of Liverpool then you'd be singing my praises.  Just because that's not the case, and our opinions conflict, I'm automatically painted in a negative light. 

    It's called intolerance ;-)

    You should just argue the issues and steer clear of the sniping, but like so many others, the sniping seems to rise to the surface.

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    Liverpool need players that are going to produce the goods week in and week out. Babel has not produced the good month in or month out.
    Can anybody tell me one game when he's produced a man of the match performance?
    Glen Johnson, Insua, Riera, Benayoun even Lucas have all produced a MOM performance at some point. Babel in his 3 years has produced one.
    Before the season started Babel was touted for sale and he said he wanted to stay and fight for his place. So if after only 4 games he wants to cry off that shows you how much fight and spirit the lads got!!!! None
    We don't need this lad in the trenches with the other player! He’s not up for the fight and his attitude is almost mutinous!
    I have been a Babel supporter since day one an IF he has said these things he needs to apologise to the manager, fans and team mates. Knuckle down and earn a place in the side by being consistent to a high level not consistently poor!
    Also for me Liverpool comes first, not Holland so he needs to get his form right here and when he does the international honours will follow!
    On the point of man management Rafa brought Alonso to the club for £10m and after 2 bad seasons previous to the last (by Alonso standards) quite a few people and not just Rafa where not too bothered when Alonso was touted for sale for £14 -£15m. Alonso’s disappointment at being put up for sale initiated his best form in his 5 years. Yes he was upset and wanted to leave but we got a great 12 months out of him and made a further £20m (£34m) on the price we tried to sell him at 12 months previous. <span> </span>Was that not getting the best out of a player? Man management
    Babel needs to take a leaf out of Alonso and Benayouns book especially in the World Cup Year. Channel his anger into consistent high quality performances and then he’ll hold all the cards next year! New club or new [...]

    ReplyDelete
  82. Liverpool need players that are going to produce the goods week in and week out. Babel has not produced the good month in or month out.
    Can anybody tell me one game when he's produced a man of the match performance?
    Glen Johnson, Insua, Riera, Benayoun even Lucas have all produced a MOM performance at some point. Babel in his 3 years has produced one.
    Before the season started Babel was touted for sale and he said he wanted to stay and fight for his place. So if after only 4 games he wants to cry off that shows you how much fight and spirit the lads got!!!! None
    We don't need this lad in the trenches with the other player! He’s not up for the fight and his attitude is almost mutinous!
    I have been a Babel supporter since day one an IF he has said these things he needs to apologise to the manager, fans and team mates. Knuckle down and earn a place in the side by being consistent to a high level not consistently poor!
    Also for me Liverpool comes first, not Holland so he needs to get his form right here and when he does the international honours will follow!
    On the point of man management Rafa brought Alonso to the club for £10m and after 2 bad seasons previous to the last (by Alonso standards) quite a few people and not just Rafa where not too bothered when Alonso was touted for sale for £14 -£15m. Alonso’s disappointment at being put up for sale initiated his best form in his 5 years. Yes he was upset and wanted to leave but we got a great 12 months out of him and made a further £20m (£34m) on the price we tried to sell him at 12 months previous.  Was that not getting the best out of a player? Man management
    Babel needs to take a leaf out of Alonso and Benayouns book especially in the World Cup Year. Channel his anger into consistent high quality performances and then he’ll hold all the cards next year! New club or new contract.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Early last season both Ryan Babel and Yossi Benayoun were in exactly the same situation, just getting bits and pieces of games here and there along with an occasional start. Yossi admitted it was frustrating but he certainly never showed that on the pitch. The fact is Yossi took every chance he could get, and tried to make a difference, no matter how long he had on the pitch, and by the latter part of the season he was rewarded by getting a lot more starts. Compare that to Babel, who seems far too often to let games pass him by no matter how long he is on the pitch for. Now, what kind of attitude do we want from players at the club? Yossi's or Ryan's? The season is only 4 games old and already he is whingeing.

    ReplyDelete
  84. The writer Jaimie Kanwar for some reason is deliberately trying to tint all the stats to fit his agenda.  For someone who writes for this club's welfare and going-ons, I would think and propose that there ought to be some filtering to be done before writers are allowed to post.
    There are people like us who follow each game and each development who can see that Babel has not been able to contribute for the whole 90 minutes, so should he be played for the sake of giving him minutes vs team's overall performance?
    damned if you do, damned if you don't huh.
    For your sake Jaimie Kanwar, i hope you do have a day job.  But then again, if you do, i am sorry for your co workers and the people who interact with you face to face on a daily basis.

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  85. Good points Ste - to be fair though, Benitez was publicly critical of Babel last week, so what goes around comes around.  Agree with you about Yossi, but has his great form made any difference?  benitez still hasn't made him a first team regular, even though we're crying out for someone with his skill.

    This season. Yossi has started 2 games on the bench and has been  subbed in another. That's 3 games out of 4 either on the bench or subbed.  So much for being rewarded for good form.

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  86. In 101 total Apearances for Ajax Ryan Babel scored 20 goals hardly prolific and natural as suggested.

    Not trying to cause a fight this is just a point!

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  87. "if the fee was lower, Babel would have gone to Arsenal; and I have no doubt he would be a superstar by now."

    Thank you. That's the silliest thing I've read in ages.

    You're completely missing the point. Liverpool are a much more successful club than Arsenal. Why do you persist in brown nosing Wenger or methods of lesser clubs?

    Hear this... Babel and Keane the same, they've played football since they were toddlers. They have come thru' the ranks at every level over a long period of time. They're both attackers who have scored and created goals in other leagues and for other clubs but nowhere as big as LFC. They've failed at the highest level. Unlucky. Get them out and let's see if the next hotshot can cut it when he sees his fanmail delivered by lorry before he's even kicked a ball for us.

    Like it or not, old bean, there isn't a club on these shores who doesn't view Liverpool FC as the yardstick. Did you even see Arsenal in that CL final? Spineless!

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  88. Yossi's form at present is average at  best and not at the level of last year but it will come back! When it does he will be a regular starter.

    Form is temporary.

    Not trying to cause a fight just making a point!

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  89. Who said anything about Babel being a prolific striker?  Let me ask you thins: If Babel is so rubbish, and doesn't score enough goals etc, why did Benitez pay 11.5m for him when he was 20?  Surely this - once again - calls into question Benitez's ability in the transfer market?

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  90. You argue the point that Babel should be played as a striker and should play after scoring. So who do you propse we drop in his place? Gerrard? Torres?

    Forget fair think common sense!

    I guess then you could slate the manager on your forum along with every other Liverpool fan for dropping Torres or Gerrard for Babel.

    he just can't win!

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  91. Your tone seems to suggest that Rafa is the problem and Babel has not been given a fair crack of the whip.

    With your website, conduct a poll for fans: Who should go, Rafa or Babel?

    I think the response would tell the story. Liverpool fans are (supposed to be) knowledgeable and do not suffer fools. Only a fool would be in the Babel camp...

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  92. Arsenal were linked with Babel for ages and made a bid between 7 and 10m:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/gunners-ready-to-snare-babel-the-new-henry-433516.html

    Wenger pulled out when Ajax asked for 13m; Benitez stepped in and got him for 11m.

    If Babel was available for a lower fee, he would've gone to Arsenal.  Babel even admitted he was an Arsenal fan and professed his love for the club!

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport-old/football/2007/06/15/babel-i-d-love-arsenal-move-115875-19300413/

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  93. You said play him in his natural position! Striker. 1 in 5!!! There is nothing natural about that position.

    When did I say he was rubbish?

    Babel played on the left of a 4-3-3 at Ajax not down the middle. as you would have us believe.

    Benitez is like any other manager some signing just don't work out!

    Even slur Alex has made huge boobs in the transfer market!

    Not trying to cause a fight this is just a point!

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  94. Did you even watch the Spurs game?  Yossi was superb then he came on as a sub.  Then he started the 4-0 hammering of Stoke.  Then it was back to the bench again despite playing well.  To say he's playing 'average at best' is just plain inaccurate.

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  95. Jaimie, you really don't leave much room for anyone to contradict you now do you. If i were to defend rafa and say he acted fairly, you'll bring up the fact that babel got dropped 10 times after scoring goals. If i say babel is crap, you'll come out and say, or rather, suggest that rafa's transfer policy is bad and that he shouldn't have wasted 11 plus million on babel. So which side should anyone be leaning on?

    I consider myself a neutral on this topic. Though i do think that babel does have potential as a player, i also do think that babel has flattered to decieve on many occasions. I don't think anyone can deny that. Criticizing rafa or this so called benitez effect is positively ludicrous. Though i don't fully support or agree with some of his methods (the barry saga, robbie keane), it has to be said that he has and will continue to bring the club forward. Might i also add that those stats you provided never did reflect the fact that for most of the times that babel got dropped, it was probably due to rafa's famed rotation policy at that time. I doubt anyone forgot that. Perhaps that might alter the perspective a little.

    Oh, and if anyone needed to see how well babel might fare in a strikers role, a good game to gauge that would be last seasons away match at marseille. Though he didn't score, i would say he did quite a good job that day.

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  96. I think there is a problem here in that Babel is probably not doing the things Rafa wants him to - like keep the ball, and play it simple sometimes.  And I thought he played as a left sided attacker for Holland anyway - which is the way he plays for Liverpool, cutting into the box from wide.

    You must also remember that more often than not, Rafa will change things during a game on the flanks to give the opposition something different to think about - therefore, just because a player is playing 'well' may mean they are kept injury free for the next game - in effect on their toes so they don't get complacent.

    Maybe you don't like this style of management (I'm sure your man Martin O'Neill would do things better - and Babel would excel in a counter attacking team like Villa!) but players like Torres and Gerrard have seemingly improved under Rafa (no doubt you have some other statistics to say they haven't though).

    Personally, I think Babel loses the ball too easily, he often tries the difficult option and seems reluctant to chase the ball back. 

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  97. The point I am making is that Yossi's attitude is spot on. You don't have to be on the pitch for 90 minutes to give 100%. The fact is Babel's attitude stinks and you can't blame Benitez for that, it comes from the player himself. No-one can deny he has got ability, but unless he changes his mentality he won't make it here, or at any of the top clubs in Europe, should he move on. It is interesting that he's touting a move back to Ajax - back to the comfort zone eh Ryan?

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  98. I agree with you that Babel has flattered to deceive on a few occasions, but my argument is if Benitez had not systematically crushed his confidence *over and over again*, then perhaps he would've performed better.

    On the transfer fee issue - surely if everyone is suggesting that Babel doesn't have the ability and hasn't had it from the start then that means the 11m was wasted?  Why couldn't Benitez see that he wasn't that great?

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  99. In a strange way you've just contradicted yourself!

    I'm not going to be drawn by your very agressive manor of debate instead I'll refer to the original title of the article "Ryan Babel another victim of the Benitez affect" (affect meaning influence, effect meaning outcome).

    If benayoun can come off the bench an inflence a game whats Babels excuse.
    Benayoun was in an identical position with Rafa and the Liverpool fans last year as Babel is now.

    "Yossi Benayoun another victim of the Benitez affect"

    At the beginning of the 2008-2009 season he was awful and complaining now we praise him for his good play! That's got nothing to do with the manager and his influence though!!!

    Once again another player the manager brought to the club and another of his bad signings....

    I bet you're not and have never been an athlete in the slightest or played team sport to any reasonable standard.

    Your replies are very aggressive because of your lack of team sport knowledge.

    Not trying to cause a fight just making a point!

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  100. Rafa the Red - how are my replies 'aggressive'?  Please provide some examples of my 'aggressive' replies.  Or is it more the case that we have opposing opinions so you project this alleged aggresiveness onto me?  I am not aggressive in the slightest.  Debating in a forthright manner is not aggression. 
     
    And please just stick to arguing the points - your attempts to second guess my personal history are pretty lame and have nothing to do with the issues being debated.  
     
    Thanks. JK 
     
    (and there's no need to put 'not trying to cause a fight' at the bottom of every post.  Make your points, and if you do so in the right way then no one can have a problem.

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  101. Rafa the Red - how are my replies 'aggressive'?  Please provide some examples of my 'aggressive' replies.  Or is it more the case that by virtue of the fac we have opposing opinion you project that onto me?  I am not aggressive in the slightest.  Debating in a forthright manner is not aggression.

    And please just stick to arguing the points - your attempts to second guess my personal history are pretty lame and have nothing to do with the issues being debated. 

    Thanks. JK

    (and there's no need to put 'not trying to cause a fight' at the bottom of every post.  Make your points, and if you do so in the right way then no one can have a problem.

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  102. I highly doubt that benitez has crushed his confidence as you have suggested. Sure, he's not played as much as he'd like to, but by your definition everyone except for gerrard, torres, reina, and carragher should have had their "confidence crushed", given how rafa liked to rotate, and still does on occasion. Tha fact of the matter is, babel has disappointed himself more than anyone else. I still like him as a player and hope he does do well, but besides a few sparkling moments on the pitch, he hasn't really delivered.

    As for the transfer fee, no one's doubting his talent or potential, and i think for most part, that was what rafa was paying for. To say that it was a complete waste would be wholly innacurate, and one needs to look no further than at our dear rivals man u or even chelsea to see how its like to truly waste money on players, not to mention, wages.

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  103. You are so right Jaimie. Your statistiks says it all. Benitez is very hard to understand. Great players like Crouch, Keane and Babel never got the chance to prove there ability.
    Lucas and Kuyt on the other hand - way to much.

    From a big big fan in Denmark

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  104. Giving Babel and extended run would require dropping someone else. Giving him a run at striker requires dropping Torres. Giving him a run at left wing requires placing him ahead of both Reina and Benayoun. Benayoun is far more of an attacking threat, Reina holds the ball much better (something Benitez clearly values, hence his retention of Kewell even when he wasn't taking people on). How do you give the lad a run of games when there are better players in better form that fit the team structure better available?

    In addition, I am not so convinced about Babel's "undoubted talent." I believe it should be doubted. He has one world class move, which is to skip to the inside at high speed and unleash a ferocious shot. However, this has been copped onto by defenders since his first season, and they now cheat that way and Babel does not seem to have enough other threat about him to keep them honest - he rarely gets that shot away now. In addition, his passing is weak - never a killer pass from our Ryan, unlike Yossi, and his ball retention is week - bad control and inability to spot the clever pass or realize the time for a necessarily simple pass like Riera. He concedes possession too easily and I think that is probably a cardinal sin as far as Benitez is concerned. All of these qualities of not spotting the pass/bad or inconsistent touch/losing possession (particularly when played by more than one defender) suggest he would not play very well at all as a striker.

    It is clear that the strength and speed of defenders in the premier league do not allow for simple physical presence to be enough, like it did for him in Holland. I recall about three times that Babel has started to the inside, then cut back and gone to the byline and hit a successful cross - each time it was devastating to the opposition, and if he could do that consistently, it would open up his vaunted jink inside and hammer it, but he doesn't seem to be able to take or execute that decision with any consistency, and it is insufferable.

    I'm no huge Benitez fan, but I think that Babel has made it very difficult for Rafa to pick him with any consistency, particularly with the alternatives available. I think you've made a mistake arguing backwards from the statistics instead of considering how those statistics came about. Please, please do not put up the 10 goals then dropped argument again it is entirely single player-centric - and doesn't address the way the manager clearly thinks, which is in terms of how the team as a whole plays and how the player fits into that. I agree that this way of thinking has its disadvantages, particularly I think with confidence players (Keane) and perhaps even more so with players like Babel who have been superior physically to their opponents for most of their career, and now that they are playing against tougher opponents don't know what to do and have their technical weaknesses exposed. 

    And just so you realize that I am not a Benitez supporter, I think his biggest weakness is in teaching/coaching. I think he is very good at explaining to players what they need to do/ what he needs them to do, but I think he is less good at teaching them how to do it if they are unable to figure it out themselves - with Babel, who does not come across as the brightest lad, I suspect this doesn't help.

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  105. Totally agree with you Jamie! How can a player prove him self when he never played two games in a row! Maybe Rafa can test him on striking possition just like Henry played at Arsenal! Now when we don't have play maker ( Alberto still injured ) and Lucas ( just don't get it really well ) back Gerrard as play maker on central midfield! Play Masch-Gerrard on mid. and Torres-Babel on strike! Rafa can experiment it with Burlney or against any other weak team! YNWA!

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  106. heh, that should be Riera in that first paragraph, although you have to admit Reina's ball retention is pretty good.

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  107. Rafa's fault doesn't lie in his failure to nurture him as a player as much as it lies in the folly that he signed him in the first place!
    Let's face it, Rafa can be a shrewd tactician but he's no Wenger and Babel will Never become Henry.
    We need a fast and technically gifted winger who can cross naturally with his left foot but Rafa's indignation (almost childish; just like with Barry) at Valencia compounded with the abysmal Rick Parry and the rotten yanks have landed us in this mess where Riera + Babel < Silva.
    The scouting department and the coaching staff need to take the flak for this tragedy that is Babel who was touted to be better than Henry but couldn't even sniff the trail that Henry blazed.

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  108. Babel can succeed else where but not at liverpool. He lack teamwork and often lose possession, even though he could score goals for liverpool.
    Look at Luis Garcia, he is a very talented individual who possess excellent techniques and skills, and he scored quite a number of important goals. The problem is he lose the ball too often.
    Lack of teamwork + lose possession too often = out of liverpool!!  

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  109. benayoun, riera and babel have all been competing for essentially the same position. the first two put in good performances when called upon and were rewarded by longer spells in the team. babel has consistently failed to deliver and while it is true that more games could possibly improve his form, we are not running a charity. if we are serious about putting right our twenty year drought then benitez mistake was to start babel at spurs given how well benayoun had fitted in at the end of last season.

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  110. I thought Babel worked his arse off against Spurs.  Ok he didn't have the best of games on the ball but WHO did?  He was up and down the line putting himself about getting tackles in.  Defensively it was arguably his best performance in a Liverpool Shirt!  Wasn't this what Rafa was looking for? Surely he had to<span style="visibility: visible;"><span style="visibility: visible;"><span style="color: #cc0000;"> </span>persevere with the kid and give his offensive form a chance to kick in.  Rafa is sending out very mixed messages to the kid and it looks like he'll never do right in the boss' eyes.</span></span>

    mark my words, if this boy was at any of the other top3 clubs they'd get the best out of him

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  111. He wasn't benched again after the Stoke game. We played the exact same team against Villa with Yossi on the left. And we played poorly. You argued after that game that we should play Riera on teh left to create more width with a natural left footed player, or have you forgotten that artciel you wrote.

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  112. He wasn't benched again after the Stoke game. We played the exact same team against Villa with Yossi on the left. And we played poorly. You argued after that game that we should play Riera on the left to create more width with a natural left footed player, or have you forgotten that article you wrote.

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  113. You really are clutching at straws now Jaimie. Babel was bought for £11m for his potential. I think most of us at the time thought that it was a good buy. A few other top teams including Arsenal wer eafter him.  In his frst season he was ok. Not brilliant but we all thought that he was a young player and would mature. Instead he has steadily got worse. And I don't believe that it is because of Rafa man management. Babel doesn't do enough in games to warrant a first team place at the moment. He's lazy, he's ducks out of challenges, he loses the ball too often. The one game he started against Spurs he was anonymous, we may as well have played with 10 men.

    Remember Francis Jeffers, Arsene Wenger called him his fox in the box, bought him for £7m. Where is he now? Arsene is well known for nuturing young talent. I suppose you'll tell us that Arsene ruined his career too. Sometimes it just doesn't happen for players.

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  114. ‘Did you even watch the Spurs game?’  And   ‘To say he's playing 'average at best' is just plain inaccurate’

    Are both quirt aggressive responses! Or maybe you can’t see this!

    Yes we have apposing view however it’s you and not I who seem to take greater issue with anybody whose view differ from yours.  Your manner is as you say forthright/blunt which can be easily construed as aggressive.

    You continually make references to sticking and arguing the point and telling people what they can and can’t write which is very annoying.

    ‘(and there's no need to put 'not trying to cause a fight' at the bottom of every post.  Make your points, and if you do so in the right way then no one can have a problem.’

    This is supposed to be a forum – which historically is a meeting place for open debate.

    So let’s stop acting like a dictator, quit arguing and allow people to debate.

    Perhaps a good idea would be a change of tact! Write the article let people debate the points and moderate the site instead of arguing with everybody.

    I was told a long time ago not to argue with a fool! Because they drag you down to their level and have had a lot more practice at it!

    Case and point!!!

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  115. The majority of his goals have been scored after coming off the bench. So it looks like he's been used correctly. If you look at his 10 goals in the 1st season they was either against poor sides of the 5th in a 5-0 win. Only the goals against Chelsea and Arsenal look decent (winner on the break) but in reality they don't make a career.

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  116. I am not a huge fan of rafas man management but i would like to point out abt the replacement of babel for ajax ...it was luis suarez look how good he is for them now.. he has done better than babel..shows hard work will pay and rafa must give a chance to young ones ....machedas goal against aston villa anyone saw this match in the previous season...no one thought this guy will score he did and won it for them..we have good youngsters but no one to nurture them ..i would personally want nemeth to play more but he is loaned out maybe thats good ..but pachecho should be given a chance and also spearing it was a great pass to dossenna against real madrid ..i still dont know why dossena is slagged off by our fans ?

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  117. Rafa has lost the plot. This is the man who has brought Vorinin after trying to publically bin him. Continues to play Kuyt on the wing because he works hard!
    Then goes out and buys the big greek because he is 'big', what a joke his latest buys have been.

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  118. Towards the end of last season the supporters were given the impression that the team needs another two or three good players in order to improve on that performance. Instead they sold two players and replaced them with another two.  According to what we hear Benitez is not being given any  money to buy more players, therefore I think it is difficult to improve on last season.

    Money do make a difference.

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  119. ppl! we need to undertsand that this is not a fault of the manager or the player! the problem is the lack of communication b/w them...benitez is a fine manager n even babel is a good prospect! but yet the problem here is that benitez doesnt have faith in babel! remember last years 0-0 draw with babel when orres got injured,benitez sent ngog on how would someone like babel like that who had a decent first season? n now that aqualani is injured why doesnt rafa switch to the 442 formation n give lucas or mascherano a rest?n play torres upfront with babel! if u notice against tottenham glen jhonson won the penalty due to his dribbling skills.n looking at LIVERPOOL we dont have dribblers! why not play attacking football? in big games babel can sit on the pitch while we switch to 451 when aqua comes back.i bet all of you guys here think babel is better than voronin? n even ngog is better than voronin!so why not put voronin on the wide left n play babel upfront?i hope rafa tries playing a 442 this weekend as mascherano n lucas r both expected on friday!

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  120. I don't think we can judge if Benitez is treating Babel or other players right or not. We don't know what he tells the players and what they tell him. 

    I don't think scoring a goal makes a player undropable. As someone already stated Babel scored his goals mainly when he didn't play from the start. Babel is most effective when he has space and when he can use is pace. Usually, Liverpool never get a lot of space at the beginning of a match. Bringing on Babel after 70 minutes to me makes sense, since then his pace has a even greater affect. Babel's performances convinced me when he came on as sub, not when he played from the start. I always hoped that he could make it, but I think his work rate is too low. If he want's to play at the world cup I would expect him to kick ass every day at training. Since he is not even the first sub at the moment, I don't think that's the case.  

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