In a recent poll on this site, 51% of 11,000 (approx) participants voted for Pepe Reina to stay at Anfield next season and challenge Simon Mignolet for LFC's No 1 shirt. Whilst not a significant majority, it shows that Mignolet still hasn't totally won over the fanbase, and Reds fan in particular is definitely not impressed with the Belgian's debut season.
When asked this week about Mignolet, Grobbelaar insisted that the £9m signing is 'not the best all-round keeper', and offered offered the following four reasons why he's not the long term solution for LFC:
* He doesn't 'play out from the back' effectively
* He's 'not commanding enough' in the penalty box.
* Position at free kicks is 'not right'.
* He concedes too many goals.
Grobbelaar further explained:
“A keeper should never be beaten – as he [Mignolet] has been – by a header from three yards out. You compare that to the number of goals Petr Cech has conceded at Chelsea and that tells you the difference. The keeper coach has to work him harder and he can improve a lot, of course he can."
Wowsers. That is an absolutely scathing verdict on Mignolet's first season, and I doubt he'll be too happy to read these comments. To be brutally honest, though, Grobbelaar is arguably right with his assessment - The Belgian is a top class shot-stopper, but his distribution, command of the penalty area leave a lot to be desired, and these are issues picked up by fans all season.
As for goals conceded - Liverpool's defensive frailty is partly to blame here (though Johnson, Agger, and Skrtel featured heavily last season, too), but the Reds have conceded more goals than any other team in the top four, and Mignolet has to take his share of responsibility for that.
The smoking gun (so to speak), is this: Last season, Pepe Reina conceded 43 goals for the whole league season. This season, with 4 games still to go, Mignolet is already on 42. If Reina is apparently not good enough, what does that say about his replacement? It doesn't matter what way you slice it, a goalkeeper's primary role is to stop goals being conceded, and it's clear that Mignolet is making zero difference on that front.
Of course, some will argue that it's churlish to criticise the goalkeeper when Liverpool are on the verge of winning the league, but a longer-term view needs to be taken. The amazing goalscoring form of Luis Suarez and Daniel Sturridge is papering over the cracks of LFC's defensive - and goalkeeping - frailty, but there's no guarantee that SAS will be able to continue the same level of prolificity next season.
Is Mignolet the long-term solution? Will he suddenly become a commanding figure in the penalty box? Will his distribution really exponentially improve over the pre-season? Or is time to consider another change between the sticks?
Author: Jaimie K
When asked this week about Mignolet, Grobbelaar insisted that the £9m signing is 'not the best all-round keeper', and offered offered the following four reasons why he's not the long term solution for LFC:
* He doesn't 'play out from the back' effectively
* He's 'not commanding enough' in the penalty box.
* Position at free kicks is 'not right'.
* He concedes too many goals.
Grobbelaar further explained:
“A keeper should never be beaten – as he [Mignolet] has been – by a header from three yards out. You compare that to the number of goals Petr Cech has conceded at Chelsea and that tells you the difference. The keeper coach has to work him harder and he can improve a lot, of course he can."
Wowsers. That is an absolutely scathing verdict on Mignolet's first season, and I doubt he'll be too happy to read these comments. To be brutally honest, though, Grobbelaar is arguably right with his assessment - The Belgian is a top class shot-stopper, but his distribution, command of the penalty area leave a lot to be desired, and these are issues picked up by fans all season.
As for goals conceded - Liverpool's defensive frailty is partly to blame here (though Johnson, Agger, and Skrtel featured heavily last season, too), but the Reds have conceded more goals than any other team in the top four, and Mignolet has to take his share of responsibility for that.
The smoking gun (so to speak), is this: Last season, Pepe Reina conceded 43 goals for the whole league season. This season, with 4 games still to go, Mignolet is already on 42. If Reina is apparently not good enough, what does that say about his replacement? It doesn't matter what way you slice it, a goalkeeper's primary role is to stop goals being conceded, and it's clear that Mignolet is making zero difference on that front.
Of course, some will argue that it's churlish to criticise the goalkeeper when Liverpool are on the verge of winning the league, but a longer-term view needs to be taken. The amazing goalscoring form of Luis Suarez and Daniel Sturridge is papering over the cracks of LFC's defensive - and goalkeeping - frailty, but there's no guarantee that SAS will be able to continue the same level of prolificity next season.
Is Mignolet the long-term solution? Will he suddenly become a commanding figure in the penalty box? Will his distribution really exponentially improve over the pre-season? Or is time to consider another change between the sticks?
Author: Jaimie K
I continue to believe that Reina was not happy and it showed in his play which included lots of blame towards others and some boneheaded plays on his own. Move the f@@k on and let him go to Spain or stay at Napoli....let's use him as either trade bait or cash for a new signing.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I completely see and understand the the point being made regarding Reina returning to challenge Mignolet, comparing the two in terms of goals conceded over a season is quite frankly ridiculous in my opinion - there's far too many variables. For instance, Liverpool have employed a more "gung-ho" attack minded frame of playing that has left the defence more vulnerable because of the bodies committed in the opposition half - is that Mignolet's fault? No. The backline has been reshuffled consistently throughout the season, whereas last year it was pretty much a constant fixture of Carra, Agger, Enrique and Glen. Is THAT Mignolet's fault? Of course not. Kolo Toure has played. That's definitely not Mig's fault! Expectations are significantly higher than at Sunderland, and I think as a whole, the guy has done quite well and is likely to improve as the years go on.
ReplyDeleteJust out of interest, how many free kicks has Mignolet conceded? It's just a very particular criticism to say his positioning is not right at free kicks as if he's conceded plenty of them throughout the season. I don't recall any..
I agree with your comment, but I think it is harsh to call him a fuck. Was a great player for us once upon a time. He did fancy a move at certain points, but when he didn't get it he still stayed and remained reasonably professional, even if his form did dip.
ReplyDeleteI think that if Chelsea are willing to sell Mata to Man United, we should break the bank to sign Courtois. I think we could get him for £30mil which sounds extortionate for a position in which we are not in dire need, but he could easily lock down the no.1 for us for a decade. If he managed that, it would be a bargain.
ReplyDeleteI think Courtois is one of the two players I can think of who I think we'd have an outside chance of signing and would be worth writing a blank cheque for. The other is Reus. If he becomes available to United (which I don't think he will, but the rumours persist) then we have to move in ahead of them and try and secure that deal.
Surely it's not just me who has notived Mings comanding his area, comong for things and generally being better in recent games?
ReplyDeleteWhen did Grobbelar say this?
ReplyDeleteI think he's hit and miss in that regard. You could see improvement against City though. I think he has the right attitude (which people often look past but you can see its importance with the likes of Lucas and Hendo) so I'd back him to improve that part of his game. Look how much De Gea has came on in those kind of areas (though, to be honest, I think he is just a better 'keeper).
ReplyDeleteA couple of days ago.
ReplyDeleteHe said it to me a few weeks ago whilst we were playing golf though. I won, in case you were wondering, 6 golfs to 3.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Mingnolet should be too worried about comments from a man of whom the House of Lords had this to say:
ReplyDelete"that while it had been proved that Grobbelaar had accepted bribes, it had not been shown that he had let in goals to fix results. It was for this reason that the original jury had found in his favour.
But Lord Bingham said: 'He had in fact acted in a way in which no decent or honest footballer would act, and in a way which could, if not exposed and stamped on, undermine the integrity of a game which earns the loyalty and support of millions."
Grobbelaar did serve Liverpool well and is, of course, entitled to his opinion but he should keep his head below the parapet when bad-mouthing other keepers. At least they haven't been found to have accepted bribes.
It may be that Mignolet is not the absolute best but generally it is a matter of luck and reflexes as to whether a (powerful) header from 3 metres out is stopped. He has made errors but all keepers do - he has not made too many. He could learn from Reiner's distribution, especially in the early years.
It should also be borne in mind that a number of the goals conceded were attributable solely to the defence - Skrtel, Toure etc and that he has made a number of outrageous saves. The bald fact is that the defence as a whole have conceded too many goals.
Richard de gea is an officer and a gentleman but better player????////???/ Yeah probably, but not by much. I think he has got the right attitude. He wants to improve and to my eybes he has.
ReplyDeleteI thought 6 golfs to 3 was a losing hand? Don't you need four golfs and a bowls for Yahtzee?
ReplyDeleteRight now we have conceded 1 more goal than last year whilst scoring 22 more goals. Is that to be expected? We conceded 3 more goals than the previous season but scored 23 more goals. Perhaps playing a more attacking and open game will mean more goals conceded but many more scored year on year? Mings has improved of late ad he is still young so tht for me is hopeful. He has certainly looked more secure in his saving ability than Reina did in his last couple of years.
ReplyDeleteI cannot say that I'm satisfied by Mignolet, but this is his first season and I think that he can play better. Reina was a good goalie for LFC but not perfect like Van Der Sar, Casillas, Buffon or Cech. His Anfield time is over and it is time for something new (Mignolet or someone else).
ReplyDeleteGuillermo Ochoa. Is this Rodgers target to replace SM as keeper?
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with everything you have said Shaun and if i responded to this article it'd be a copy of that. If we are going to be so attacking then our defence will suffer. We werent the same last season attack-wise and were a lot more conservative. This season we are certainly 'we'll score more than you' so it doesnt shock me that we have conceded more. Some of Mignolets shot stopping has been excellent and Pepes form has been a downward spiral for the last few seasons aswell as his shot stopping. I really believe we'd have conceded more with Pepe and although he is held in legendary status now, he certainly flirted with a Barcelona for years and its better if he left and we move on. Mignolets still young and will improve.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember a goalline clearance from Sterling and Johnson as a direct result of his error in coming for a ball and not getting it. The outcome of that could have been much more seriousin a vital match
ReplyDeletePlease can somebody answer with a simple YES or NO.
ReplyDeleteWould Petr Cech have conceded as many goals and kept as many clean sheets with LFC's back 4 this season?
Agreed. He can improve his command of the area in time. His mistakes in big games as well as his ability to claim/punch crosses have been concerning. But I think this can all be put down to the pressures of playing for LFC in games which actually matter! Stick with him and hopefully he'll get better and better.
ReplyDeletehard to say. Probably no, given that Mignolet's been at fault for a quite a few goals this season, whereas Cech's only been at fault maybe for one or two (the one against WBA springs to mind). Cech's considered to be one the world's best keepers to boot.
ReplyDeleteHard to say. Probably no. So much for a simple yes or no.
ReplyDeleteWhat goals has Mignolet been responsible for this season. I am pretty sure you can answer seeing that you have stated 'quite a few'. Which ones?
imo reina is kind of liability to liverpool defence
ReplyDeletermb the matches with man city arsenal chelsea in 12-13 season?
his poor positioning cost liverpool cuople of pts
Mignolet's average claim success this season is 95%. His average punches is at 41%.
ReplyDeletePeter Chec average claim success this season is also at 95% and his average punches is at 26%.
What made you say that Mignolet's ability to claim/punch crosses have been concerning when he is on par with Chec?
He probably had a bet on the 6 -3 scoreline :-/
ReplyDeleteIts mignolet's first season with us, ok he's made a few mistakes but how many times has he saved us this season. I say it definitely out ways the mistakes he's made by a long way, you defend from the front as a team so give the guy a break. Do we want to be a boring team and just defend most of the game or do we want to watch the great attacking football we've been playing all season. I no what I want to watch and it's got us sitting on top of the league, which is absolutely the brilliant football we play it's a no brainer for me.
ReplyDeleteI think there have been a quite a few he's flapped at over the season. I can't remember them distinctly, but the most recent one was against City, where the ball ended up getting cleared off the line. Could have cost us dearly to go in only 2-1 up...
ReplyDeleteNo
ReplyDeleteGiaccherini
ReplyDeleteBenteke
Eto'o
Negredo
Those are a few I remember quite well..
During his last 18 months at the club Reina became a massive liability and he was constantly beaten at his near post. From memory, it started when we played City away, and Aguero his a shot that dipped furiously and it went straight through Reina's arms and legs - There was a claim something was wrong with the ball, but anyways...
ReplyDeleteIMO, you can't say that goals conceded is the be all and end all when you have directly pinpointed some of the reasons why we have leaked goals (defensive errors, not including the keeper) in the paragraph before. It's like saying, for example, well Glen Johnson made 10 mistakes leading to goals, but the keeper is at fault.
With our style demanding a sweeper keeper, Mignolet should only get better. I'd like to think he is working on his command of area and distribution every day in training. Yes, we could find an upgrade but I don't think it's worth it, there's no guarantees either. As for Reina, his use-by date had passed and even though he was a loyal servant for LFC, I'm glad we've moved on as his performances during his last 18 months at the club were simply not good enough.
Well said! Reinas time is over and Simon can only get better in this part of his game...
ReplyDeleteIt's always easy to criticize a goalkeeper when the defence is clearly lacking quality!
Mignolet is very good. Only problem I see is his distribution. Overall he is a great buy and saved us many points this season. Mignolet, Toure (except couple of own goals) and too some extent Cissoko (since its only a loan) have been our successful transfer last summer.
ReplyDeleteSeriously no!
ReplyDeleteSometimes goals are just inevitable and you can't pinpoint exactly why you conceded. On the other hand it's obvious when someone makes a bad mistake.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I have time for Mignolet is because the areas he is currently lacking in can all be (IMO) improved over time. The best thing about Mignolet is his reflex saves, when you think the ball is destined for the net but he gets something on it, Reina can't produce that and you can't coach that.
I am not going to go over all the goals you have mentioned but the Eto'o goal cannot entirely be blamed on Mignolet when it was Skrtel who lost his marker i.e. Eto'o..
ReplyDeleteNow seeing that you are pointing out above in your opinion waht are mistakes by Mignolet, please can you comment on how many points Mignolet has saved us this season.
You are avoiding what I have put to you. Why did you make a claim that Mignolet's claim success is concerning when he is on par with Cech?
ReplyDeleteIt's really harsh to blame a keeper that safed us a lot of points, especially in the opening stages of the season where nobody knew how good we will get over the season... IMO by making the double penalty safe against stoke mignolet layed the foundation of the success of our season, he has been vital for us, eventhough it must be said that he needs to improve at some parts of his game... But every player needs to improve somewhere ... f.e Sturridge on his presence in the box or Sakho on his positioning ... No-one is perfect, but mignolet is right up there with the rest of the team IMO! He's just an easy target that's it!
ReplyDeleteI think it's Rodgers set up that contributes to the amount of goals scored and conceded. Not necessarily a players individual actions.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't change the fact that he should have saved it. If it's saved, maybe we don't concede from that opportunity and maybe we take something from the game. In a big situation like that, we expect our gk to be coming out on top. It wasn't to be.
ReplyDeleteWell it's very difficult for Mignolet to save us points given that our attack bears so much fruit! He rarely needs to save us points. However, the notable saves include the penalty save against Stoke and maybe a few against Everton at Goodison after we went 2-0 up. Other than that, I can't remember many others where we've had to defend a 1 goal lead or have been drawing and hanging on to our dear lives!
I'd appreciate it if you could think of a few as well.
BR knew exactly what he will get when we signed him, his skills and strengths are not different from last season,we all know how good his shot-stopping skills are and I'd go so far and say mignolet has been vital for us this season!! At the beginning of the season, when our team wasn't that high in confidence he safed us a lot of points, these points were so important for us, to gain confidence.... Of course he still needs to improve, but so do others too! I'm sure our coaches will get the best out if him!
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I can remember him flapping at a few. Clearly, the statistics suggest otherwise, but perhaps those 5% are the ones I'm referring to! It was probably the timing of them as well that concerned me at the time.
ReplyDeleteMignolet has made several mistakes and that's where criticisms and areas to improve on are drawn from.
ReplyDeleteMignolet has made mistakes directly leading to goals, but there haven't been enough to warrant the purchase of a new, supposedly better goalkeeper than Mignolet. If he doesn't improve in certain areas by the end of next season then we should consider a replacement. I think it's too early now.
Mignolet will concede more goals than Reina last season, but if it's one or the other, for me it's Mignolet hands down.
Yeah I agree. But the only reason I'd want to get rid of Reina is because he doesn't want to be at LFC. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind him sticking around and challenging for the no.1 spot. If he doesn't, I believe Mignolet can and will get better over the years.
ReplyDeleteReina leaving after Mignolet arriving was purely financial IMO. Why would you have a 100K a week keeper on the bench? It's ideal for Rodgers creating a squad which is competitive in nature, but the men in the board room would object. I'm actually hoping for an academy keeper to come through who can provide a challenge.
ReplyDeleteI reckon Reina was affected by all his Spanish speaking buddies leaving the club. Maybe linking up with Benitez once again has made him perform a little better.
Getting rid of Reina was obviously financial, but getting Mignolet in clearly was for footballing reasons. Benitez probably knows how to get the best out of him.
ReplyDeleteThe SAS paper covering the cracks is so thick you could f**king beat them with drum sticks and make cool percussion sounds!
ReplyDeleteDude, maybe he didn't know that Cech stat...
ReplyDeleteBut know we know that there is nothing wrong with Mignolet's claim success rate as it is on par with Cech's.
ReplyDeleteAll I am trying to point out is that people make comments without even looking at the facts.
But then if he did not know then why make a comment on that? It is like me saying the sky is purple without looking at it.
ReplyDeleteYou repeatedly claim that Mignolet is 'on a par' with Cech, but once again, your intellectual dishonesty is amazing.
ReplyDeleteThose two stats above are not the main indicator of a goalkeeper's quality. So, Mignolet is on a par when it comes to claim success; big deal! How has that helped LFC stop conceding goals?
* PC has conceded 24 goals in the Prem; SM = 42.
* PC has 16 prem clean sheets; SM 10.
* SM concedes a goal every 72 mins; PC every 127 mins
* PC saves 77% of shots; SM 69%
* PC has 37 successful catches; SM 24
You just pick and choose the stats that suit your argument instead of taking everything into consideration.
Based on the more expansive stats above, in what universe is SM on a par with PC?
And don't use the defence as an excuse. You've been arguing all season that Sakho is a 'beast' and some kind of defensive genius; you've argued that Joe Allen and Henderson are amazing midfielders who protect the defence. Now, all of a sudden, they don't exist, and it's all the defence's fault?!
Last season, it was the same defence bar Sakho and Carragher, and Reina still conceded less goals. Additionally, the defence was also dodgy in BR's first year, which is part of what prompted the signing of 3 central defenders last summer.
No.
ReplyDeletePlus, it's a pointless question as it's predicated on something you can't prove.
Excuse me, his claim success rate was in question.
ReplyDeleteThat was the comparison. .
Mignolet's claim success can still be concerning even if he's on a par with Cech, whose claim success could also be 'concerning.
ReplyDeleteAlso, why do you ignore all the Cech vs. Mignolet stats that don't back up your tenuous argument? You just zero in on two stats which support your case.
Do you also know that Simon Mignolet is top of the charts in the EA SPORTS Player Performance Index.
ReplyDeleteThese stats are on the official Premier League website.
Refer to my last reply to Alex above.
ReplyDeleteThe question you've posed is not a simple 'Yes/No' answer as it's split into two parts, each of which require different answers. Nice attempt to pull the wool over peoples' eyes though.
ReplyDelete* Would Cech have conceded as many goals? No.
* Would he have kept as many clean sheets? Yes
IMO, based on his past history. SM conceded 69 goals in 2012-13.
69? In the EPL? Sunderland conceded 54 goals last season.
ReplyDeleteThat index is pointless. It employs a proprietary scoring method, which has little credibility in reality. Plus, two of the key criteria for gaining points are minutes on the pitch, and number of appearances, both of which are irrelevant to the question of whether a player performs well.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/players/ea-sports-player-performance-index/what-is-the-ea-sports-ppi.html
Additionally, in the same index:
* Giroud is ahead of Aguero.
* Sagna is ahead of John Terry (Despite Chelsea having the best defensive record in the league)
* Hazard is ahead of Sturridge
The EA SPORTS PPI is the only official player rating index of the Barclays Premier League which measures a player's all round contribution to the success of his team using six key indices.
ReplyDeleteKey Indices
1. Winning Performance
Players receive points for time on the pitch in a successful team. Players will receive more points if they play the full 90 minutes in a winning team. This index shares league points won by a team between the players according to the minutes they are on the pitch. Only time on the pitch and points scored are taken into account in this first index.
2. Player's Performance per match
Players receive points for positive influences on a winning performance (shots on target, tackles, clearances, saves etc). Players have points taken away from their score for negative actions such as shots off target and receiving yellow and/or red cards.
3. Appearances
Players receive points for minutes on the pitch. The number of points won by ALL teams in the Barclays Premier League are divided among the players according to the number of minutes they have played. This does not take into account the result of a match, it awards points purely for playing time.
4. Goals scored
Players are awarded points for scoring goals. These points are only given to the goalscorer.
5. Assists
Players are awarded points for assists. These points are only awarded to players that make the assist.
Assists are awarded to the player from the goal scoring team who makes the last touch before the goal is scored.
If after this touch, an opposing player touches the ball outside the penalty area altering the intended destination of the ball, then no assist is given, except if this intervention directly results in an own goal.
In the event of a penalty or free-kick, the player earning the penalty or free-kick gets an assist if a goal is directly scored, but not if he takes it himself, in which case no assist is given.
6. Clean sheets
Allocates points for clean sheets to the whole team. The proportionate split of the points is weighted according to the player's position. Therefore a goalkeeper will be awarded a greater proportion of the points for keeping a clean sheet than a striker. The points are also awarded proportionately to the time spent on the pitch.
The overall EA SPORTS PPI is a correlation between all of the above six indices. The Index only includes actions that can be measured objectively and does not reward one action more than another (e.g. a pass by a midfielder will not gain more points than a tackle made by a defender). Subjective factors relating to individual players' skill levels or evidence of a specific flair, such as a particularly spectacular pass or goal, are not included within the index.
The intention of the index assessment is to remove any opinion bias and only work with proven statistical measurements which become more accurate as the season progresses.
While the Index rewards players that contribute to a winning team, the team success is only part of the final rating. Players that perform well but don't enjoy much team success can still perform well in the overall ratings by scoring points in other areas.
The EA SPORTS PPI is updated on premierleague.com the day after the last fixture in each round of matches, along with the EA SPORTS Team of the Week, which consists of the top players from the Index.
Yes, my mistake. Still, with 4 games to go, he's on 42 conceded (45 for the season including league cup), which is not an improvement on Reina.
ReplyDeleteBecause Chelsea has the same offensive balance as Liverpool? And honestly, Cech is maybe (probably) the best PL keeper atm. I'd rather have Mignolet than any other keeper in the PL aside from Cech and maybe Lloris. If paying 9m for a top 3 league keeper isn't a good deal for you I don't know what is.
ReplyDeleteThe stats are based on many player contributions during each and every match they play matches.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, when it comes to comparing goalkeepers, the amount of successful, saves, passes, punches, penalty saves, clean sheet etc etc etc will then all the minus factors i.e. mistakes will be subtracted from the successes and then you will get the score of the player so not sure how you can say that it has little credibility when each and every stat of each and every match of the players are accounted for.
Yeah but he was coming for it and previously he had not been. Also who doesn't miss the odd one?And it was that one, just. The rest he claimed quite securely same against West Ham. Apart from Carrol's slap Mings claimed everything. Then there were the saves in the City game? I can honestly say I believe the Reina we had for the last few seasons would have not done better. In fact I believe we would not be in this position in the league had he stayed. Barring a good Steve Peter's talking to and Reina shifting a bit of weight and getting his mojo back.
ReplyDeleteGoals conceded is a team stat first and foremost, and Liverpool obviously play more openly than Chelsea. You don't need to be intellectually honest or whatever to see that the way the team sets up affects the goalkeeper's performance in a number of ways. And we have conceded a frightening number of goals for a team in contention for the title. I'd guess about half of them have come about from individual errors, shared throughout the team, but with our defenders especially culpable. That's the side we've got to work on: and that mentality, to perfect the game, eliminating all mistakes, will come with success, hopefully.
ReplyDeleteAnyway a comparison with Cech on any front is a bit unfair. He's been the best goalkeeper in England for ten years, and in my opinion the best in Europe over that time. We could put this down to experience at this stage, but the fact is that in his first premier league season, when he was the same age Mignolet is now, Cech conceded 15 goals. Fifteen.
That Chelsea team contained half-a-dozen world class defensive players: Terry, Cole, Carvalho, Makalele, Gallas... Glen Johnson!... and of course played very tight. But most importantly they made hardly any mistakes. They were a ruthlessly efficient side who were, as we might recall, somewhat unlucky not to proceed to the Champion's League final that season :) Put Mignolet into that team, though, and I think we'd have to accept that they'd have been less effective in defence. Cech was so dominant in the box, his central defenders could freely go and challenge for the ball, which suited Terry, in particular, down to the ground. Sakho and Skrtel both have that mentality, they love to come out and be aggressive, dominate the attackers, but you can see the anxiety when they come out to do so. That's partly because they know that if they lose out and the opposition get a chance to cross, we'll be in trouble; our full backs, on the left in particular, do not cover well; our midfielders have a tendency to leave their runners; our defensive leader, Agger, has proven vulnerable to pace... and perhaps the security of the keeper under lofted crosses contributes to that also.
Nevertheless in my judgement Mignolet has had a very good first season and has been an excellent buy: a young and experienced premier league goalkeeper got at what seems to me a fair price. He's been a breath of fresh air. Reina is a somewhat gloomy character who gives me the impression of being someone who always feels the world is against him, and I believe his absence has been good for the squad (just an impression). In answer to your rhetorical question in the article, he won't improve *suddenly*, but he has indeed shown improvement in those areas over the course of the season and looks to me the kind of player who will continue to improve over his career: talented, intelligent, and hard-working (again, just an impression). His distribution is notably better. I don't know what Grobelaar is on about with reference to positioning at free kicks so can't comment there. He also looks bigger and stronger than he did. He'll won't ever be Petr Cech (that position is already taken) but he's nevertheless a good goalkeeper.
That said, I'd be looking to bring in maybe two keepers in the close season! I'd want to see options: a talented technician who specialises in distribution, and a more all-round player in the mould of Norwich's John Ruddy, for my money the most consistent keeper in the league beyond Cech, and who I hope won't be on the kind of form he's capable of tomorrow...
Sorry, waffling on. It's the nerves.
ReplyDeleteI cannot argue with what you say to some extent
ReplyDeleteit goes with the territory of being a goalkeeper.
However, but i would have liked to have seen what would have happened if your last sentence had been enacted instead of shelling out £9M
The only stats there are the saves catches and punches the others are not necessarily to do with Mings. How many own goals have we conceded compared to Chelsea? How many errors from outfield players have led to goals?
ReplyDeleteUp to this point we have conceded one more goal than last season! We have scored over 20 more goals. Sometimes it makes sense that these things coincide.
But Mignolet has conceded less goals than last season at Sunderland.
ReplyDeleteSilly question but does anyone actually know what "26% punches" actually means?
ReplyDeleteAnd is there any stat that says something like "stayed on his line when everyone in the stadium and watching on TV around the world (and in America) was screaming "come out and claim the bloody ball!!?""
Yes, he is the long-term solution. The defense need to get better...especially on set pieces and even more so in the air on set pieces.
ReplyDeleteYeah me too. At one point Pepe was my favorite player. He was the most consistent and saved us many points. Those days ended a while ago and he never got to work with Peter's.
ReplyDeleteBy all accounts Reina did shift a bit of weight while at Napoli, perhaps the preseason could be interesting in that regard?
Your silly question means that Cech only has a 26% punch success rate :-)
ReplyDeleteBut we have scored 40 odd more goals! Conceding 4 (5) more goals may come with scoring a shed load no? How many clean sheets did we have under Reina? How many errors leading to goals have the two keepers conceded? Reina's last season and Mings first? This is a genuine question as you seem to have already found a site with the stats and I can't be bothered.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but you seem to have manufactured this false correlation between scoring more goals and conceding more. Where does this come from? Why does one have anything to do with the other? Other teams in the past have scored lots of goals on the way to the title and still managed to keep a good defensive record. Where is your evidence that scoring goals = conceding more?
ReplyDeleteSo what! He should be conceding less as he's playing with better, international-class players. Are you going to scrape the barrel a little bit more?
ReplyDeleteWell you were the one who mentioned his 2012/2013 stats at Sunderland. He has conceded less goals?
ReplyDeleteWe play more offensively, which leaves our defense more exposed. It's quite simple to understand. In reality, what should be compared is individual mistakes from Reina and Mignolet which have led to goals scored against I'm pretty sure yourself you'd be glad that Reina isn't between our sticks anymore.
ReplyDeleteI recall you criticising Reina for not putting enough effort anymore, especially in the 11/12 season (remember RVP's goal at Anfield in the last minute? Ramirez in the FA Cup final?) Mignolet has always been concerned and that itself tells you why most of us want him to stay our N°1 keeper.
False correlation? So a team that attacks more is not more susceptible to conceding more? You see no way those things correlate?
ReplyDeleteI am not saying they have to coincide but there are obvious incidents when players are too far up field they are not tracking runners back, we get hit on the break and concede. Also it is no surprise that the team with the best defensive record out of the three teams playing for the title is the one that has scored the least goals.
When you attack more you sacrifice defensive solidity, when you defend more you sacrifice attacking flair. This is pretty much common knowledge Jaimie.
Thanks. Still the nagging doubt is that the numbers seemed really low for both goalies. You'd think it would be easier to get a fist to the ball rather than catch it even allowing for the fact that the catches include simple uncontested crosses too.
ReplyDeleteIt's numbers like that, as well as the many interrelated variables in a game of football, which make me very doubtful about relying too heavily on stats.
That's entirely different. When you talk about football, you say a lot of things based on memory. Talking about the sky is just a stupid comparison.
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree that attack more = sacrifice defensive solidity.
ReplyDeleteLook at the final league tables for the last 10-12 years: all the teams that attack more do not have the worst defensive records.
Liverpool are a prime example of this. In the 70s/80s, the Reds attacked more than most, yet still maintained good defensive records.
In La Liga this season, Real Madrid, Atletico and Barca are the three most attacking teams, with most goals scored, yet they have the best defensive records in the league, too, with Atletico conceding only 22 goals in 34 games.
Why is it a stupid comparison?
ReplyDeleteIf I told you that the sky is purple, are you not going to correct me and also ask me why i think the sky is purple when it is not.
It's a stupid comparison for very obvious reasons, the principle reason being it has absolutely nothing to do with football in any way, shape or form; nor is it tangentially related in any credible way.
ReplyDeleteSo tell us then Jaimie, in your opinion why are we conceding more this season?
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me back to the part where I mentioned in one of my posts that one should not comment on something unless you have looked at the facts.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, even when you look at those stats there's no surprise: between the top 3 teams in La Liga, Atletico have conceded the least but also scored the least. Just like Chelsea over here.
ReplyDelete* Persistent individual defensive errors throughout the season.
ReplyDelete* Unsettled back four (i.e. Central defensive partnership constantly changing throughout the season).
* Lack of a commanding, vocal goalkeeper to take responsibility for organising the defence.
* Failure to buy a proper commanding central defender last summer; i.e. someone who would come in and establish themselves quickly as a regular, and make a real difference.
* A defence that doesn't wholly trust the goalkeeper (that is merely my personal observation), which leads to uncertainty.
* Mistakes by Mignolet, leading to more uncertainty in the defensive unit.
* Failure by BR to prioritise set-piece defending and/or address the issue effectively.
* Mignolet is not a leader; he's doesn't cajole/inspire his defenders when the chips are down.
Yet you ignore Real Madrid and Barca in 2nd and third, who've scored the most yet conceded the 2nd and third least goals in the league.
ReplyDeleteAnd what does the sky being purple have to do with that?! Absolutely nothing.
ReplyDeleteStats are not the be all and end all but if you need to find out what Suarez's strike success rate is then the only way the question will be answered is via stats. Stats are very important when showing a player where he needs to improve.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't give a monkey's. Thought of any point saving contributions other than the aforementioned yet?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe statistics tell a full story. I guess I'll just watch out for his claims conscientiously in the future! ;)
ReplyDeleteAgree but if you have a goalie that punches when he could catch it and his puncjhing stats are only half what he achieves in his catches you can see where that leads......and how it makes meaningful comparisons difficult.
ReplyDeleteDude, we talking about bloody researched facts vs a f**king black and white fact which is in front of you every day. People will have differing perceptions of certain elements of football, e.g, who's the better goal keeper, where people will then have to RESEARCH evidence to back themselves up. However, no one has differing perceptions of what colour the sky is. Please, just drop the sky comparison.
ReplyDeleteFoster has made 58 saves all season. De Gea 88.
ReplyDeleteMignolet has made 98.
Cardiff City 'keeper David Marshall has made 139 saves; does that mean he's better than Mignolet?
ReplyDeleteNorwich's John Ruddy has made 105 saves, which is way more than Chech, who's made 81 saves. Clearly, according to your logic, Ruddy is the better goalkeeper.
I see. So the number of saves a goalkeeper makes is indicative of his overall quality? Nonsense.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned the saving contributions did you not?
ReplyDeleteRead a lovely interview with him in France Football a few weeks ago. But I don't really think he's got the all-round game to thrive in England.
ReplyDeletePOINT saving contributions. I wouldn't consider a straight-down-your-throat catch from a 20 yard shot a point saving contribution. The penalty save against Stoke on the other hand is a completely different matter.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the evidence that 'playing more offensively leaves our defence exposed'?! That is just a soundbite that's unbacked by any real evidence. Just because it sounds like it should be true, doesn't make it true.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, you ignored the points I raised above about teams playing offensively that refutes this point:
* Look at all the league-title winners over the last 15 years (or those that finish 2nd/3rd) - it's often the case they score lots of goals, but in most cases, these teams have good defensive records.
* Barca and Real Madrid are two of the most offensive teams in La Liga, yet they have two of the best defensive records (not just this season, but most seasons).
I've asked Greg, and I'll ask you: please provide some concrete evidence that playing more offensively = conceding more goals. Just saying it doesn't make it true.
Here you go again, trying to muddy the waters with yet another irrelevant point. Why is it impossible for you to stay on track? What does Mignolet's record last season have to do with how many saves he's made this season?! What does it have to do with the point you've just tried to make re saves equating to goalkeeping quality? Nothing.
ReplyDeleteOf course, where did i mention when a keeper pushes a cross away or collects a high ball or cross that it is considered as a save?
ReplyDeleteDavid Marshall has been heroic at times for Cardiff actually, so he deserves a shout!
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what you're saying. But 5 out of the 6 errors I've mentioned were shots that should have been saved.
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say which goalkeeper is bettter than the next?
ReplyDeleteAlex asked about how the saves contributions that were made and I made a comparison of the two players (Foster & De Gea) who in his opinion have been more impressive than Mignolet.
And the same can be said about other keepers who also should have saved shots that went in.
ReplyDeleteIt is not like Foster and De Gea have made no errors this season.
Sometimes you sound like you don't actually watch the games and just read stats.How many teams have you seen get caught up field? How many goals are scored on the counterattack? Because I can't be bothered looking for the stats doesn't mean that they don't exist. There is a difference between repeating a soundbite and seeing said soundbite in action.
ReplyDeleteUsing Madrid and Barca doesn't really stand up too much for obvious reasons.
All that aside for a minute what about these keeper errors? Any stats on that?
We don't have the "worst defensive record" Just the worst of the top few teams. We are on course to have conceded a similat amount of goals as previous United sides who have won the league whilst scoring more goals.
ReplyDeleteAtletico play like Chelsea, Real have scored 20 more goals and have conceded 10 more than Atletico in a league far more unbalanced towards the top teams than ours. That is an example in itself, more attacking and direct team (Real) score more and concede more. Barca keep possession more and are less direct than us and Real.
Sakho may well be said defender but has had injury.
ReplyDeleteThe fact he is having to make more saves means he has less protection doesn't it? Having to make more saves means a higher likelyhood of conceding more goals obviously. So once again conceding goals is a team thing rather than individual.
ReplyDeleteCome on, Greg :-)
ReplyDeleteReal Madrid are a massively offensive team. They've scored 94 goals (!), and conceded only 32, which is third best in La Liga.
Barcelona are also a very offensive team; 92 goals scored proves that (which is more than LFC), so why does the fact they 'keep possession more' make any difference.
If LFC score 92 goals, you and others will be praising how offensive the team is, but you don't give the same credit to Barcelona, who, incidentally, have conceded only 27 goals.
We have played a completely different system this year to last...
ReplyDeleteOur full backs are more like wing backs. Our holding midfielder drops back in between our two center backs, and we essentially end up with a 3-5-2 offensively.
Our theory is that if you score 2, we're going to score 3. Not we're going to win every game 1-0.
Yes, Mignolet can improve... but the way I'd look at it is that Reina gave up 42 goals last year in a much more defensive-minded system.
The one area in particular that has been particularly frustrating that I hold Mignolets largely responsible is the set pieces. I think he is not aggressive enough and it even tentative at times. Still a lot of times, the defense contributes to that as well with poor man marking.
I've provided an argument based on facts. Your argument about being more offensive = more goals scored, is not supported by anything.
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't Barca/Madrid stand up? What obvious reasons? What about Bayern, PSG and Juventus, whose goals scored/conceded ratio backs up my argument? What about all the title winners over the last 20 years? What about LFC's history of scoring shedloads of goals (in the 70s/80s) and having a good defensive record?
Playing more offensively does not = conceding more goals. If you, or Gabzz, can provide evidence to back up that contention, I'm listening.
When you make signficant statements like that, you should expect to be challenged, and you should be able to back it up. Just saying 'I watched games' is not valid reasoning.
The two simple counter-arguments I have to that:
ReplyDelete1. Barcelona and Real Madrid are both more talented than LFC.
2. Barcelona and Real Madrid play in (what I consider to be) a weaker league overall. If both of those teams were in the premiere league, I'm guessing they'd give up more goals.
BOOM!
ReplyDeleteIt's a Rodgers comment, you keep possession more you have a higher likelihood of scoring and a lesser likelihood of conceding. Pertty much his mantra when he joined us but he has changed his ways and gone for a more direct approach. Real and Barca are not only miles better than most teams in the league but also have spent the most money getting there and have the highest wages. We have not spent as much, have the fifth highest wages and have come from seventh place in the league. Hold on to that a minute I'll get back to it.
ReplyDeleteTruth is we were conceding goals anyway before this stage but never scoring as many. The players in the team are not the best players we could possibly have as demonstrated in part by wages, overall cost and league placing over the last couple of seasons, we have overcome our tendency to concede goals by attacking and though doing that leaving the potential to concede more and not that much more anyway.
Barca and Real have been the top two teams in La lIga for what decades? Not only have they spent the most money and pay the highest wages than other teams in their league they have also a solidity that time and prestige gives you. If your a team in la liga do you attack Real and Barca outright and hope to outscore them? No chance, you try and be solid defensively and hit them on the break. A tactic used as it is well known that that is a good way to beat a team as they have a lot of players high up the pitch. It doesn't work that well as Barca and Real end up scoring but it does mean they will concede less.
Atletico have done the opposite to us. They have built from the back and counter and have great attackers who can score, we have built from the front and hope to outscore our opponents. With time we will strengthen from the back to aid our attack and begin to concede less. And with teams (like Real and Barca opposition) will fear us more and attack us less.
You're comparing something which is completely black and white and inarguable, to perception which needs to be bloody researched to be evidenced. Now please, drop the stupid sky comparison.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder JK gets so frustrated with you...
With respect, how do these argument disprove my point? What does the talent level have to do with anything? People constantly claim Valdes is a poor goalkeeper, and that the defence is suspect, yet they concede less goals.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Bayern, Juve, and PSG? What about the fact that the top teams in England over the last 15-20 years (i.e. title winners/2nd/3rd place) have often scored shedloads of goals, but maintained good defensive records?
Granted, your view is opinion-based, but that doesn't defeat plain fact. If that were the case, people could just cite any opinion argument and that would be it.
Of, and Logan - STOP posting pointless one-word posts.
Shots that should be saved, but aren't are penned down as a goalkeeping error.
ReplyDeletePoint is, Cech has made less than Mignolet.
What is counterattacking? Why is it employed if it doesn't give you an advantage? The advantage being the attacking side will leave gaps. Does this need explaining?
ReplyDeleteWhat do Bayern, PSG, Real Mardid and Barca all have in common? Add previous Liverpool teams and United teams to that. In fact add City and Chlesea too. Seeing a pattern?
I don't pay any attention to the Italian league so not sure about Juve.
It's fair enough challenging it but why. But not even sure why it needs defending to be honest.
They have the better players so they defend better, they pay lots of money to get those players and pay massive wages to keep them. The talent of the defenders, midfielders etc means that they either leave less gaps when attacking or the talent, intelligence and athleticism of those players means they plug up those gaps effectively and or quickly when they are attacked. We have lesser players in lots of positions so we may concede more when we leave gaps. Not to mention the amount of goals that we concede (and those teams don't) from individual errors. Which is not about attacking but add the two together and we have an issue.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that no matter what the evidence, you and others will come up with some reason to dispute it because you're all inflexibly dead-set on the view that being more offensive = conceding less goals. The fact that there's no real evidence to support that contention doesn't seem to matter. It must just be a Merseyside thing that only affects Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteIn theory, from a talent-level standpoint, the best teams should score the most goals and give up the least. It's a very general statement, but the fact is we've scored the most in the league with 93, Man City 88, and the next highest is Chelsea at 88.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, when it comes to conceding, the gap between 4th least and 8th least conceded is four goals. Two of the teams in there are are Hull and Crystal Palace, in 13th and 11th place in the table. They've also scored 34 and 27. Wouldn't it be safe to say that their style of play is more conservative.
Arsenal, currently in 4th place, has given up 41 goals. They've scored 59.
My point is, looking at where we are, a goal less given up here or there, and we'd easily be in the top 5 in terms of goals conceded. It's not as dire as it might seem... especially when taking into account the gap of our goals scored to the 3rd highest scored.
So just to be clear you believe that attacking doesn't leave room for opposition to exploit? That if pressing high up is not successful you are susceptible?
ReplyDeleteI am not saying it is the only reason we are conceding goals. But do I believe it could account for the 4-5 more goals we have (up to now) conceded more than last year? Quite possibly yes.
Do you think that it is a statistical anomaly that over the last three seasons we have scored and conceded more goals? Do you not think they are connected at all?
Arsenal's defence was being heralded earlier in the season too.
ReplyDeleteHe's got his frailties but I'm not worried. I would still put him amongst the better keepers in the league, certainly top 10. He may not be an improvement over Reina but he's young and could be our first choice for many many years. He doesn't need to be world class, he just needs to be good and not lose us games. I see no point losing sleep over it, he'll get better the longer he stays at the club and I'm happy with his form so far, so that's a good thing.
ReplyDeleteYou do that. It will just confirm his stats :-)
ReplyDeleteNo, I agree with you that attacking can leave room for the opposition to exploit, but I strongly disagree that it causes a problem to the extent you seem to be arguing. Every team attacks; every team leaves spaces as a result. It's not (IMO) the main reason why LFC are conceding more goals. For me, It's not even in the top 7-8 reasons, and there are dozens of examples over the years (including from LFC teams) to disprove the theory. For example:
ReplyDelete* 2008-9: LFC are top scorers in the Prem, but have the 3rd best defensive record.
Of course, the inevitable response from those desperate to defend your argument will be 'but Benitez's team didn't play as offensively', but that is just not true for that particular season, and a cursory glance at the post-Christmas results proves that.
It was Ohio Hold Out rules.
ReplyDeleteThe extent I am arguing is the 4 and whatever more goals we concede from three seasons ago. That's it! We have not properly strengthened in some defensive areas (full backs) and we have had a lot of injuries and changes to the CB's which has left them unsettled. My argument is that we have essentially not gotten better nor worse defensively but will concede the odd goal here and there more due to being more attacking. I am not saying it accounts for the majority of goals at all.
ReplyDeleteBenitez team like Chelsea's now played with two DM's or players playing in front of the the defense. They are teams built from the back, starting with a solid defensive mindset and over time getting better attacking. This team has not been built that way.
But if you had to state that Mignolet's ability to claim crosses is concerning and I counter and tell you that he has a 95% success rate then are you still of the opinion that his ability to claim crosses is concerning?
ReplyDeleteThe one thing I would say about my particular opinion in this particular case is that I have a feeling most people would agree with me in regards to the talent level of both the teams and the leagues.
ReplyDeleteSo no, I did not reference a plain fact, but I think it's safe to say that my opinion, seeing as how so many people probably feel similarly, means that there are facts to back up that opinion even if I'm not referencing them here.
Ahh I see. I personally wouldn't do that to a Tapir but each to their own.
ReplyDeleteHow many clean sheets did we have
ReplyDeleteunder Reina? How many errors leading to goals have the two keepers
conceded? Reina's last season and Mings first?
Yes possibly if I thought he was punching or attempting to punch crosses he should catch or not coming at all for crosses I thought he should come for.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I am not necessarily saying that I am just pointing out one of the many difficulties of taking stats at face value and relying on them to make or break arguments
Huh you can say that again..:-)
ReplyDeleteThis is a good thread guys.
ReplyDeleteWant to just add that one of the things that makes teams which attack more vulnerable defensively is the demands that attacking, especially persistent counter-attacking football where you draw the opposition on before breaking, is that the non-stop 60 yard sprints take it out of the team, especially the midfielders and full-backs. So even if a player has got back into position, they won't necessarily have that sharpness to cover. I'm sure that's been a factor for us this season.
Maybe we should do a goal by goal analysis of our defense this season to figure it out...
That's a really good point I didn't factor in fatigue.
ReplyDeleteTrue I've been following this thread closely and I'm knackered
ReplyDeleteI don't really understand the timing of these comments to be honest. What can be achieved by publicly slating the goalkeeper before 4 of the biggest games in liverpools history. Zip it Bruce, at least til the end of the season
ReplyDeleteJust saw a brilliant claim from Mignolet. Helped Norwich get a goal back ;)
ReplyDeleteYes, another example of why Mignolet needs proper competition.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like it won't impact the result now! But yup, needs competition.
ReplyDeleteI'd be more interested in a comparison of Reina's save percentage last season with Mignolet's this season. Mignolet is clearly a better shot stopper, and Reina is definitely better at commanding the box, etc., but as I've said before Mignolet can work hard over the summer and improve that aspect of his game, whereas being a great shot-stopper is something harder to teach.
ReplyDeleteGoals allowed stats don't tell the whole story though. Save percentage as I said above, and how about own goals and errors like Skrtel made in the Fulham game? Seems like we've had a lot this year...how many last year? This year we've been far more open and attacking, and it's cost us at the back sometimes. We've been missing Enrique for most of the season, and for large parts of the year had to chop and change at the back because of other injuries, so our defensive unit as a whole was lacking. Mignolet earned us 4 points in the first 2 games of the season...penalty double save and a save from Benteke that Reina would not have made IMO, and he hasn't been perfect he's made a few errors but in general I've thought him to be a definite upgrade on Reina. Next year we'll see him command the box better I believe, but in the meantime we should look beyond the surface of goals against when judging him.
What is it with comments needing to be approved by the website...I make a comment, it goes through fine, I edit it to add some stats to my point and now it needs to be approved.
ReplyDeleteWe Need Champions League Quality Goal Keeper...Mignolet cannot handle entire pressure from all the competitions(Europe,premiere league,FA cup,carling cup)....we need to invest on Goal keeper whether he should be first choice or backup is debatable as reina has no chance because BR does not rate him high
ReplyDeleteBecause of the way we're playing now, I think Reina would be perfect. Yes he makes similar mistakes like Mignolet but his distribution is better, his ball control is better, and he commands his area better. I'd have him back in a shot.
ReplyDeleteSave vs. Aston Villa on Benteke with 3 minutes left, incredible save 2nd game of the season.
ReplyDeleteat his near post, was it not? Would've been disappointed had he not saved it! Good save, but not 'incredible' IMO!
ReplyDeleteTake another look at the slow motion replay
ReplyDelete