It's no secret that the former Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez and Man United counterpart Alex Ferguson had a frosty professional relationship during the Spaniard's time at Anfield, and in his new book, Fergie pulls no punches with his assessment of Benitez's 'dull' Liverpool team, and his alleged tendency to 'destroy' football matches. Fergie reserves most of his criticism, however, for Benitez's dealings in the transfer market, and argues that two players in particular were not 'Liverpool class'.
Writing in his autobiography, Ferguson dismissed Benitez's constant complaints about having 'no money to spend', and insisted that 'he doled out far more than me' (which is 100% true).
Fergie conceded that Pepe Reina and Fernando Torres were 'two great successes, but also argued that the overall 'quality of buys let Benitez down'. He noted:
"If you set aside Torres and Reina, few of his [Benitez's] acquisitions were of true Liverpool standard. There were serviceable players - Mascherano and Kuyt, hardworking players - but not real Liverpool quality"
Hold onto your hats! Fergie's view here is sure to enrage Benitez's most loyal fans, but his overall point is accurate (IMO), and I argued the same points repeatedly during his time in charge (as many long-suffering site veterans will attest!)
* Benitez wasted far too much money on the wrong players, many of whom were just not up to scratch.
* Whether LFC fans choose to accept it or not, Benitez outspent Ferguson in the transfer market between 2004 and 2010. This is a fact, and is proved by the respective clubs' accounts.
As for Kuyt and Mascherano not being 'real Liverpool quality'. That's open to debate.
I was never a fan of Mascherano, and at the time LFC signed him, I posted several articles outlining why LFC shouldn't buy him and how the Argentinean would be detrimental to LFC's forward progress.
I wanted the £17m transfer fee to be spent on a top class attacking player, but given Benitez's predilection for defensive caution, this was never going to happen.
Kuyt did a good job for Liverpool over the years, but again, he is an archetypal Benitez-type player (as opposed to a 'Liverpool-type player'), i.e. someone with bags of energy and stamina, who will run 20 miles a game and priortise defending and self-sacrifice for the team over attacking, individual skill and risk-taking.
I think it's harsh to say neither Kuyt nor Mascherano were 'real Liverpool quality' because both were unquestionably good enough to play for the club. However, like Joe Allen and Fabio Borini, they were (arguably) not really needed at Anfield, and if the combined £27m transfer feed had been spent on two different players, I doubt they would've been missed.
As for Ferguson's contention that Benitez only had two 'great successes' in the transfer market. Well, that is just ill-informed cobblers of the highest order. Benitez bought a lot of dross, but he also made a number of superb and/or highly effective signings. Examples include: Alonso, Garcia, Agger, Skrtel, Crouch, Benayoun, Bellamy, Lucas, Johnson, Sterling, and the aforementioned Torres and Reina.
Erm, the less said about the likes of Zenden, Voronin, Degen, Dossena et al, the better ;-)
Author: Jaimie K
Writing in his autobiography, Ferguson dismissed Benitez's constant complaints about having 'no money to spend', and insisted that 'he doled out far more than me' (which is 100% true).
Fergie conceded that Pepe Reina and Fernando Torres were 'two great successes, but also argued that the overall 'quality of buys let Benitez down'. He noted:
"If you set aside Torres and Reina, few of his [Benitez's] acquisitions were of true Liverpool standard. There were serviceable players - Mascherano and Kuyt, hardworking players - but not real Liverpool quality"
Hold onto your hats! Fergie's view here is sure to enrage Benitez's most loyal fans, but his overall point is accurate (IMO), and I argued the same points repeatedly during his time in charge (as many long-suffering site veterans will attest!)
* Benitez wasted far too much money on the wrong players, many of whom were just not up to scratch.
* Whether LFC fans choose to accept it or not, Benitez outspent Ferguson in the transfer market between 2004 and 2010. This is a fact, and is proved by the respective clubs' accounts.
As for Kuyt and Mascherano not being 'real Liverpool quality'. That's open to debate.
I was never a fan of Mascherano, and at the time LFC signed him, I posted several articles outlining why LFC shouldn't buy him and how the Argentinean would be detrimental to LFC's forward progress.
I wanted the £17m transfer fee to be spent on a top class attacking player, but given Benitez's predilection for defensive caution, this was never going to happen.
Kuyt did a good job for Liverpool over the years, but again, he is an archetypal Benitez-type player (as opposed to a 'Liverpool-type player'), i.e. someone with bags of energy and stamina, who will run 20 miles a game and priortise defending and self-sacrifice for the team over attacking, individual skill and risk-taking.
I think it's harsh to say neither Kuyt nor Mascherano were 'real Liverpool quality' because both were unquestionably good enough to play for the club. However, like Joe Allen and Fabio Borini, they were (arguably) not really needed at Anfield, and if the combined £27m transfer feed had been spent on two different players, I doubt they would've been missed.
As for Ferguson's contention that Benitez only had two 'great successes' in the transfer market. Well, that is just ill-informed cobblers of the highest order. Benitez bought a lot of dross, but he also made a number of superb and/or highly effective signings. Examples include: Alonso, Garcia, Agger, Skrtel, Crouch, Benayoun, Bellamy, Lucas, Johnson, Sterling, and the aforementioned Torres and Reina.
Erm, the less said about the likes of Zenden, Voronin, Degen, Dossena et al, the better ;-)
Author: Jaimie K
im sick of hearing about that scotch Muppet, he hates lpool and he will die a sad hateful man. i just hope BR sends him to his grave knowing lpool r top dogs again.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't hate LFC. He is very respectful of the club in his book.
ReplyDeleteThe stupid old fool ought to be playing lawn bowls not worrying about Liverpool F.C a bit of a hypocrite if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteA lot of this stuff is deflect the mistakes he made and the comments about Bosnich were a joke he cut him and went back later to bring him back.
Jamie, I read couple of your articles and your replies to the posts. You have been reiterating that the old retired red nose is "very respectful of the club (LFC) in his book". Can you post one article supporting that claim. I would love to read that.
ReplyDeleteRead the book. It's all there.
ReplyDeleteJaimie you not think you should write about how well Rodgers dealt with the criticism of Henderson and gerrard, and how he showed class which (IMO) sir Alex was lacking when he made those silly statements, I believe if he had lost his temper and started bad mouthing fergie like Benitez has done, then you would of wrote an article. I would just like to see some praise for liverpool instead of constant negativity With all due respect.
ReplyDeleteHe uses Liverpool to cover up his own mistakes and create controversy his comments about Bosnich were laughable a bit of a hypocrite.
ReplyDeletePeople are harsh on Voronin. He wasn't that bad...
ReplyDeleteHe has to be, but it's full of mind games and criticism against us...
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, please don't tell me what to write. I write about what interests me, and if that doesn't conform to homogenised fan expectation then so be it.
ReplyDeleteFerguson did not 'criticise;' Henderson. Like you, Rodgers clearly didn't read the actual comments, and just bought into the media version of events. Ferguson merely explained the medical reason why Man Utd didn't sign Henderson. There's nothing wrong with that.
I praise LFC all the time, and if you refuse to see that, then I can't help you.
I'm sure you've been over this before, but I don't get your contention that Benitez outspent Ferguson.
ReplyDeleteIf you buy a new house that's just been recently renovated and needs no work done to it and your friend buys a house that's essentially a fixer-upper that needs a ton of work, is it fair to compare your post purchase spending? Of course not.
In the five years prior to Benitez taking over, Fergie spend nearly double what Liverpool did.
I don't think you're making a fair comparison.
Fergie's wrong about Mascherano and Kuyt, although right now Kuyt would struggle to get into our team. Much as I like Lucas and rate him very highly, there aren't many better DMs than Mascherano, particularly when we had him at our best.
ReplyDeleteJust more inflammatory rubbish from the man with the massive chip on his shoulder. Sorry Jaimie, but if he has made the comments attributed to him, it doesn't matter in what context you read them; they are disrespectful to LFC. Please don't be a Fergie apologist.
As for Benitez; well for now that ship has sailed. Yes he made a few dodgy purchases, but then so has Fergie and every manager that's ever been given money to spend on players. Overall, bang for buck, Benitez did very well.
Let's not forget how hard it has become to attract quality players. Never mind the targets that we missed last window. What about younger potential talents like Sigurdsson, who despite his connection with BR, still went to Spurs. A clubs current reputation will always influence the quality of achievable transfer targets.
The fact that Skrtel, Agger, Lucas and Johnson are still in BR's first team, with Sterling still developing, shows that after all this time Benitez did quite well. Before you say that Agger can't get into the team, he is our vice-captain.
How did Rafa outspent Ferguson between 2004 and 2010, Jaimie?
ReplyDeleteAccording to your own stats Ferguson spent 31.8m more (net) between 2004 and 2009. If it wasn't for the sale of Cristiano Ronaldo for 80m in the summer of 2009, that number would have increased to 57.2m between 2004 and 2010.
Ferguson sold one single player for a ridiciously high fee in the last year of that time span, which makes the numbers look like Rafa had a higher net spend, but it is really misleading ...
Sorry, but whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant. Benitez's transfer spending between 2004 and 2010 is greater than Ferguson's during the same period. You can make as many excuses/exceptions as you like, but that is a fact, backed by the club's own accounts.
ReplyDeleteI take it you've read the book then, right?
ReplyDeleteHow is it not relevant?
ReplyDeleteBecause it undermines your point?
That doesn't make it not relevant.
Taking a set of facts out of context is not very informative.
It doesn't undermine my point in the slightest. Nothing is taken out of context. You just can't handle the fact that Benitez outspent Ferguson over a 6 year period, so you come up with exceptions/excuses etc to try and muddy the water.
ReplyDeleteBenitez outspent Ferguson. It's an irrefutable fact. Deal with it!
You are ignoring the reasons for the various spending. How is that not taking facts out of context?
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Fergie apologist; I'm a free speech apologist, and Ferguson has said nothing inflammatory or disrespectful about LFC. Did you criticise Gerrard for some of the things he said about Man U in his book? I doubt it. What about things written by countless other LFC players/managers? It's okay for LFC to say stuff about Man Utd, but Ferguson - whose comments are comparatively moderate - is not allowed to say anything?
ReplyDeleteDouble standards.
I think the point is that if Fergie spent a large sum of money before Rafa got there, then he wouldn't need to continue to spend on that level when Rafa arrived.
ReplyDeleteSo while Rafa spent more money while he was at Liverpool, part of the reason for that may very well be that Fergie didn't actually need to spend since he had previously brought in his players before Rafa got to LFC.
It's a valid point... but it's very difficult to make an argument either way if only because you're talking about a 6 year period to compare the two managers.
I understand that the table you created shows the spending over the course of the 22 years, but you're pulling out 6 years of the data to make the case without taking into account the years prior and how that could affect the way Fergie spent during the particular 6 years you're referencing.
What 'reasons'? That is speculation, not fact. You don't know the reasons for spending as you are not Benitez, and you weren't present in transfer discussions. As such, this speculative reasoning has no merit. The figures are fact: Benitez outspent Ferguson. Why is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteAh yes, the old Ronaldo excuse.
ReplyDeleteThis changes nothing. What about the 30m LFC received for Alonso, or the £50m for Torres? Over time, these things balance out, which is why it's irrelevant.
I still find it amazing how fans simply refuse to accept fact, and endlessly try and argue against the club's own accounts. Benitez spent more than Ferguson between 2004 and 2010. Argue all you like, but it's fact.
I tried to use an analogy, which you apparently don't get, but islesfan74 has spelled it out for you.
ReplyDeleteTaking a six year snap shot and ignoring what went before it, is taking that period out of context. What happened before effected what happened next. Benitez's tenure did not happen in a vacuum.
It is, or at least should be, undeniable.
The irony here is that LFC have also outspent United over the last 22 years (!), so a consideration of what came before 2004 is not necessary. Using your logic, LFC shouldn't have needed to spend big money when Benitez arrived because the club outspent United over the 14 years before he arrived.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, it's that age-old chestnut: agree with the stats, then everything is great; no problemo. Disagree, then suddenly they have no merit, and must be discredited, and people come up with all kinds of excuses/exceptions, whilst ignoring the obvious.
Except that Torres wasn't sold by Benitez was he?
ReplyDeleteI thought we weren't allowed to take into consideration ANYTHING that happened outside of those six years?
No. Read my replay to Islesfan, and you will see why your analogy has no real merit. Again, it doesn't matter how you twist it, or try to make excuses, Benitez outspent Ferguson between 2004 and 2010. Additionally, LFC outspent United between 1990 and 2012, AND the club also outspent United in 1990s.
ReplyDeleteWith those figures in mind, LFC should've been way ahead of United in terms of trophies. After all, the club spent more money on transfers. However, who has the most Premier League trophies?
That is why I said 'over time, these things balance out'.
ReplyDeleteYes, it is fact. I'm not at all arguing this. It is the interpretation of the fact I do not agree with. Over 5 years of the 6 year time span, Fergie spent more. That's also a fact, isn't it? Changes the picture completly if one tries to analyze the transfer success both managers had ...
ReplyDeleteSo Mascherano is arguably a fixed starter in one of the best teams of our generation,maybe even in history yet he wasn't Liverpool class? And in regards to Kuyt,he might not have been the most exciting player to watch but the amount of important goals he scored cannot go unnoticed. I think his hat trick vs Utd has made Fergie bitter towards him!
ReplyDeleteNo, that's not a fact. Over 5 years, Benitez's gross spend was 265m; Fergie's was 202m.
ReplyDeleteI don't deny that Liverpool outspent United in that time and that Ferguson got far more value for money than LFC over his time at OT.
ReplyDeleteWhat is problematic is isolating Benitez for criticism and insisting that the six years between 2004 and 2010 must be seen in a vacuum.
Benitez was re-building a team just as Fergie had in the years after the Treble. You are comparing the period where Rafa was rebuilding to the period where Fergie had already rebuilt.
It's apples and oranges.
It doesn't make any difference! This is just an excuse. At the end of the day, Benitez had £289m to spend on players in a six year period (i.e. money that passed from LFC to other clubs for the services of players). That is what matters. That is the bottom line, and that is how history - and the factual documents that become historical fact - will remember it.
ReplyDeleteWhether Ferguson had already rebuilt doesn't change anything. Additionally, in the mid-2000s, United had a lean spell, and didn't win the league for two years in a row, so Ferguson was actually rebuilding at the same time, and he confirms this in his book.
Erm no. You have repeatedly said, when it comes to comparing Rafa and Fergie's spending, that we can't use any data (or arguments relating to that data) that comes from outside of the period between 2004 and 2010.
ReplyDeleteYou're just being a pedant now. Where did I say that in this thread? Nowhere. Please stop going on about irrelevant things and stick to the issues at hand.
ReplyDeleteOf course it makes a difference. Are you just being obstinate?
ReplyDeleteBenitez HAD to spend the money to keep uo because of what had gone before him Fergie DIDN'T.
On what planet is that not relevant?
That reasoning applies to every team, and every manager. And ferguson DID have to spend to keep up because of the arrival of Abramovich, or are you just going to ignore that? Chelsea's megabucks put United out of the picture for two straight years, yet they retained the title whilst spending LESS than Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteAnd why would gross spend be relevant in this context? If I sell more, I can spend more. Net spend is all that matters in this discussion. Simple.
ReplyDeleteHaving read your introductory piece and having followed your subsequent responses, I'm not sure what your main thrust is.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that Ferguson is really actually a good guy who doesn't loathe LFC and has a right to his opinions?
If so, my opinion is that Ferguson is a sad bitter twisted man with a chip on his shoulder the size of Anfield, who still wants to take every opportunity that he can to have a dig at his old enemy. Do I care? Not really, but it doesn't change my opinion on the loathe some man that he is.
Or are you saying that Benitez wasted loads of money for little reward?
Because, if we outspent Man U over the last 22/23 years, he's the one that got the most to show for it. European Champions, FA Cup winners, European Champs runners up, Premiership runners up etc. Where does this leave all our other managers in this period? Only Houllier did OK.
In any case, success is not only related to player spend. What about facilities, coaches, medical staff and a load of other stuff that also affects your success. Man U have the infra-structure to support their success and in this regard I agree with Ferguson, in that LFC didn't move with the times to upgrade facilities, particularly the stadium, when it was essential so to do. Now we gotta do catch up.
Not really worth criticising Benitez' player purchases now, as he still did better than other LFC Premiership managers. Let's hope BR does even better. Signs are good, so far.
Well said Jerry
ReplyDeleteI'm not wasting time on the pointless net spend argument.
ReplyDeleteAbramovich bought Chelsea in the summer of 2003. Just one season before Rafa was appointed. Fergie had been rebuilding his post Treble team for FOUR YEARS prior to that.
ReplyDeleteThe main thrust of the article is to examine Ferguson's comments about Benitez's transfer spending. It's not about whether he's a 'good guy' etc. I read Ferguson's book; found some of his comments about LFC interesting, and decided to write about them. it's that simple.
ReplyDeleteAnd in the 10 years prior to that, Liverpool outspend United, yet they ended up with all the titles in the 1990s. It's not as black and white as you make out. I'm not comparing the relative success of both teams here; I've merely highlighted how Benitez spent more money than Ferguson during 2004 and 2010, something that Ferguson also states in his book (and this is in the article). I include the table to show that Ferguson is factually correct with that contention.
ReplyDeleteYou're the one using pointless arguments here, I'm afraid. A simple example will illustrate this: If Rafa sells Suarez for 50m in January and gets Diego Costa in for 35m as his replacement, his gross spend would go significantly go up by these 35m, but we would arguably have a weaker squad come February. Gross spend is just completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
ReplyDeleteYou're citing facts, no argument about this, but you should be more careful when interpreting them.
True... all very true...
ReplyDeleteBut then I'd point to the fact that United outspent us in the 4 years immediately preceding Rafa by roughly 80m.
You're correct: It's a fact that Rafa outspent him while here.
All I'm saying is that there's more to the story than what meets the eye.
In what way is the net spend argument pointless? Every manager knows that if the club is in a good financial state, they will be able to sell players to buy players.
ReplyDeleteWhatever he has sold, comes back to him in credit, which makes wheeler dealer managers more important.
Also, his record in the Champs League got us money to spend due to his relative success, so why shouldn't he have spent more money?
Considering that hat trick occurred with a cumulative amount of about 5 yards, I think Fergie's bitterness is more directed towards Suarez who set up all three...
ReplyDelete:)
Lol, he's talking about Mascherano? a better CDM than anything in the United team since Keane? Righto Fergie...
ReplyDeleteSome of it yes wouldnt buy it tho no matter how much controversy they try to raise to sell it.
ReplyDeleteWe're going around in circles here and it's hilarious that you would claim that I'm the one trying to make a black and white argument!
ReplyDeleteIt is quite obviously an undeniable fact that Benitez spent more than Fergie in that period, but willfully ignoring the immediate context of that spending isn't informative, useful or honest.
You are not merely stating a fact and leaving it at that, because otherwise you would not dismiss as an "excuse" any attempt to mitigate your facts. You are using these narrow facts as the basis of an argument that Rafa spent poorly and when taken in context, it doesn't support that argument.
More careful? Why, so my opinion more closely matches yours?! I gave my view. If you don't like, tough luck I'm afraid.
ReplyDeleteSent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
Servicable player is the right kind of player. If Suarez(or Torres or Fowler..) is scoring and we are not wining- than he is not a servicable player,and he is not Liverpool quality.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, Fergie- we will finish above manu this year.
ReplyDeleteAnd get used to it...
WE DON'T WANT TO READ THE BOOK !!!!! :0
ReplyDeleteWell, if that's what it's about, so what?
ReplyDeleteSo, Benitez spent more than Ferguson (gross), but earnt a lot more from player sales. You can take a gross spend over six years, without considering the conditions that pertained at the start and the end of that period into account.
What state was the club/squad in when he arrived and when he left. More than three years on, we still have Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Sterling, Gerrard (although already at LFC, Benitez developed him further) Reina is still on the books and has been one of our best ever keepers.
Some of his great purchases, now gone, Torres, Mascherano, Alonso. The not insignificant improvements made to the academy. Add to this our only real success in the Premiership era, if success is measured in Premiership titles and European cups.
Money accrued from our European endeavours. At one point we were rated top club in Europe according to EUFA rankings.
On top of all that, net spend means a lot more than gross spend. However, even if the gross spend figure is right; what was it? £289M. It wouldn't buy you a prem winning squad of 25 players. You'd need a lot more than that.
I'm sure you must work for his publisher.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a question of opinion, I'm afraid. It's about, and I'll happily quote you on this, facts. The fact is: You're wrong and I am right :) Good night, mate!
ReplyDeleteI opened a cafe next door to a Michelin star restaurant this year and spent £20k on new equipment and decorations. The restaurant has only spent £1k this year on light decorations, should I be better than them? I have outspent them after all.....
ReplyDeletenever been a fan of mascherano...
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeletePlease, can you remind us all of which team you support?
If it was not for the sale of Ronaldo, MUFC's net spend would have been far greater than Liverpool. In addition, Benitez had the likes of Hicks n Gillett to contend with, and was not allowed to spend £30M+ for a player like fergie was able to.
And am I right in saying that Mascherano has been playing regularly for the best team on the planet - Barcelona, but you don't think he's that good (of course you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how absurd). And since we sold him we have been struggling defensively.
I'm not saying Benitez was perfect but no manager is, not even your idol fergie!
Oh, and his comments on Gerrard. Very strange considering he tried to sign him and I remember his glowing remarks after a LFC V MUFC match about how great he thought Gerrard was!
I read your articles quite regularly and you do make some valid points but you do tend to switch more to the negative 'dark' side. Oh, and please ask fergie for me if I can have a box seat too....
Surely if there is a case to be made then he could have come up with 2 better examples. Kuyt and Mascherano were excellent players. indeed the latter now ply's his trade with arguably the greatest team ever. He mentions 2 - what about alonso, skirtel, agger, johnson, arbeloa,benyaoun, bellamy. He didnt like benitez - but who did he like? Big Sam? Anybody that wasnt a threat to him or utd.
ReplyDeleteGranted benitez also purchased flops - but over a period of 5-6 years they all do. Didnt fergie have any flops over that period? Stop time right now and Zaha looks a flop. Bebe looks a flop.Anderson, Nani, Cleverley, Young are all flops.
Benitez undoubtedly spent a lot of money - but a lot of it was recouped - indeed 50 million just with the sale of Torres. Imagine selling skirtel, johnson, Agger, lucas - what would we get for them - certainly a lot more than what benitez paid for them.
We all have character flaws, personality issues - its only human - but to forget all the good did for this club at a time when it was run by reprobates is akin to urinating in the wind. Fergie has done just that - his hatred blinds him to even make a coherent argument.
You are right sammy, I could name 2 players who were worse than him over the last 25 years, (or more).
ReplyDeleteI don't think he reacted so ridiculously to Henderson. Henderson deserves to be defended when one of best managers ever criticized him for his running style. Hes a young guy and that kind of comment can shoot down a players confidence in himself, Rodgers ensured in the press and probably privately that he is a good player. What is ridiculous is what Ferguson has said. Henderson has a great engine, it doesn't matter how he runs, he will always get from point A to point B, and he isn't the slowest either.
ReplyDeleteI said it several times before are a man kanwar. Why dont yih go away and write something about yiur own club.
ReplyDeleteExcuse the spelling mistakes please getting used to a new phone. Just calling you out as a manc Jamie. Never anything positive to say and IMO always side with manc and fergie. But let me be clear never calling you a man.
ReplyDeleteOf course you read the book no self respecting lfc fan would buy or touch that rubbish.
ReplyDeleteI felt bad for Voronin. He never really got a chance but his appearances were so sporadic that when he did he didn't take his chances because he wasn't match fit.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between match fitness and physical fitness. Quite a lot of people fail to realise this.
Nonsense. Both those players were a vital part of the team that challenged for the title and produced the best LFC league result in over 20 years. I guess if you say Liverpool quality must be of the standard of the 70s and 80s teams that won everything then OK, that's probably true, but then very few players are of that quality.
ReplyDeleteI want to read the book. Not for my love of Liverpool but for my love of football. Football has gone so tribal it has become quite frustrating.
ReplyDeleteI was watching a Liverpool game a few weeks a go with my brother and we got into an argument because the referee made a decision which could have been given either way and my brother had a go at me saying I'm not a true Liverpool fan just because I agreed with the referee on the decision. Does that really make me not a true Liverpool fan for looking past a narrow minded view on the game?
I don't get all this outrage and backlash about Sir Alex's opinion in a book about his life and what he thinks. I say let him say what he wants to, does it devalue o insult anyone in particular? No, it's just his opinion, the same as many people have an opinion, sometimes derogatory, of him. o Gerard is not a 'top top' player and Masch and Dirk are 'not Liverpool standard', we the fans have our own mind made up, and that is what really matters, not jumping up and down in simian outrage about a few personal views e isagree with.
ReplyDeleteOf course benitez outspent ferguson as the scotman had already established a core team when benitez started. The difference is minimal considering the changes required. Where did Lfc go after rafa? You accuse others of being a pro benitez cult when you are an anti benitez/lfc cult IMO. No doubt you will remove all my comments tonight like the coward you are.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Kuyt being vital because IMO he should have been a squad player not a first team player. He tried his hardest every game, yes but he only ever got the odd goal. I still believe now if we had a player with flair instead of a workhorse we could have won the league. Kuyt never really created anything and the flair player most likely would have done.
ReplyDeleteA great manager like Ferguson became just "a noizy neighbour" (but I can't say that I feel pity for him)...
ReplyDeleteMascherano not liverpool quality yet good enough to get into the barcelona first team. When we were bossing midfield games left, right and centre, partnering (for all his amazing attributes) the immobile and less defensive Xabi Alonso, he wasn't liverpool quality. When Rafa took over we were languishing, whatever liverpool quality was back then, masche epitomised it: hardwork, great tackling technique and most of all passion
ReplyDeleteMascherano is world class, simple as that. Starts for Barca as a defender, still a better DM than any other in the PL. Would walk into any team in the PL on one leg!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm more with Jerry and Isle here Jamie. Your stat is 100% accurate (that LFC outspent MU in those 6 years) to support your point that Benitez moaned he had no money to spend. I believe (perhaps wrongly) that Benitez made that comment though in the last couple of years coaching LFC, and not right from the start when he had the cash.
ReplyDeleteJerry and Isle are basically saying the first few years where he outspent MU were rebuilding years and he was justified to be spending more money than Fergie. Nothing wrong with that.
As for the fact that LFC spending much more than MU over the 22 years ... I think changing a manager always prompts greater spending (for teams at the same level). The incoming manager will always want to buy players he prefers, while getting rid of baggage at a loss. In this light, I really do think Rodgers did quite a good job. I wonder how much we are paying the much extended scout network though.
Actually Jamie, I don't really get your point about Benitez outspending Fergie. He did, and so? We knew at that point in time to get back into contention (in the short run) we would have to outspend. I don't think anyone was under the delusion that we were going to underspend and beat MU. But if your point is about value, then spending is only half the equation.
ReplyDeleteI think Mascherano was real quality, LFC or not. He's good enough to be in the Barca team too. Of course that's my opinion.
there Is Plenty Of Player Manchester United Did Not Sign Or Let Go,Why Single Out Henderson?
ReplyDeleteJK has his opinion on what is or is not relevant, and anything that refutes his personal conclusions is sure to be deemed irrelevant. It's his modus operandi.
ReplyDeleteFerguson was a brilliant manager. But to cite that being able to add c£30m + players without having to sell one of your other important players to help pay for it is difficult to justify. As is ignoring an extraordinary event like the £80m Ronaldo fee, which gave Fergie a net gain of +£70m , far more than the £24-25m gain on Torres -even adding Alonso's gain leaves us some £25m + short in comparison.
The gross spend argument is nonsensical: If LFC spend £200m, on players, but have to sell £199m worth of assets to pay for it, then they have only spent £1m. That's NOT the same as spending £150m , but only having to sell say £50m worth of players to cope financially= That costs £100m to achieve, and we didn't have it. Of course, that doesn't count eh?
regardless of how we got there and who wasted the money beforehand, the fact is that Utd were already a title winning side and we weren't anywhere near that. His buys since 2004 have hardly been the work of genius, Ronaldo excepted. Hence they could go and get say, Van Percy, for £25m even at his age, since he needed a goalscorer. I could have thought of that.
Fergie's last brilliant value buy was Vidic for £7m
Their squad players cost as much in general as our headline players during Rafa's time. He could buy Carrick , Nani, Anderson, Valencia and Hargreaves all for mid to high teens, yet still spunk £30m for Berbatov and £28m for Rooney AS WELL. He could afford to buy Ronaldo for £10m in 2003 and wait 4 or 5 years for him to develop. Has Young (£17m) been any better than Downing? Zaha (£15m) better than Hendo? Not really.
Bebe. Obertan. Diouff. Tosic. Ljajic. De Laet. Manucho. Henrique. Buttner. Powell. All bought by genius Ferguson in the last 5 years of his reign. None are current 1st teamers. His skill as a football manager remained intact.
But his ability to make youth players into genuine stars like Scholes, Beckham etc disappeared a LONG time ago.
I'm surprised to see you've included Johnson in Rafa's good category, JK.
ReplyDeleteCare to explain? I know in the past you haven't really been a huge fan. Changed you mind?
Also, I think Kuyt should be in the 'good' category- very good in the big games and we definitely got our money's worth. I understand that you just weren't a big fan of Masch, which is fair enough, so I wont bother arguing that one.
The golden generation of players from their youth team saved Fergie a fortune. They played for well over a decade at the very top- Giggs still is, and Scholes
ReplyDeleteAh yes, the old gross spend excuse. Gross spend tells the whole story, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteCue the 'it's a fact' reply......
The only reason he hates Benitez is that rafa put to bed any real chances with the istanbul win, that fergie had of knocking LFC off there perch witch made us winners 5x even that was a bit much for whiskey nose to achieve ! Hahaha
ReplyDeleteYou cannot compare money been spent by fergie 16 years ago to the money spent by rafa 2004 onwards because prices are massively inflated in the last 6 - 7 years
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see a comparison of Benitez dud buys vs BR's.
ReplyDeleteFerguson is allowed an opinion.
ReplyDeleteHe just loses credibility. His choice.
After all, he did contradict HIMSELF by saying it, and he did try to buy him
Just being objective. In the post, I state 'super and/or effective signings'. I'm not the biggest fan of Johnson, but overall, it could be argued that he's been an effective signing (at times) for LFC.
ReplyDeletehahaha! Markus makes a valid point and suddenly the argument becomes pointless!
ReplyDeleteWell said sexysaturn888!
ReplyDeleteBenitez spent more money than Fergie in his time at LFC. Do not see how people want to argue with this and try find ways of wrapping Rafa up in a blanket?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Rafa won nothing in his last four seasons is proof that it was time for him to go! Now we are finally making progress again...
Part of your argument about the players he signed being obvious signings like Van Persie, Rooney etc is my basis on the argument why Jose Mourinho isn't the best manager in the world. Oh don't get me wrong Mourinho is a genius at some of the things he does but he is not the best overall manager. Look at the teams he's managed apart from Porto how has he changed their fortunes through using a limited resource?
ReplyDeleteHe won the Champions league with Porto but they hardly had a tough route to the final though. The hardest teams they came up against were Real Madrid in the group stage and United but other than that they played Partizan, Marseille, Lyon. A good team but hardly a world force. Deportivo La Coruna same as Lyon and an AS Monaco side who were batting way above their weight. No disrespect intended.
He then went to Chelsea who as we all know were the City of their day but the players he brought in were either players he had already worked with or players who were already attracting attention. The players weren't genius moves.
He then joins Inter Milan. Inter have always been a good team but obviously needed improving but still a club steeped in history. His first season he signed players which he knew about from the English league and again players who he had worked with in the past such as Crespo. He also signed Queresma a fellow Portuguese so he would know all about him and also the fact he was making a name for himself and even Liverpool wanted him if I recall?
The nest season he signed again more players which were obvious signings with big reputations and some players started to gain a reputation. The only questionable signing he made that season was Kerlon and with that signing I think he may have taken a leaf out of Souness's book and watched the a video of the lad. If you don't know what the video contains well basically it's 2/3 minutes of him running up the pitch bouncing a ball on his taking on players then inevitably getting elbowed in the head. However saying all that, that season he became the first manager to take an Italian side to a treble winning season beating Barcelona en rout to the champions league final.
His next season he joined Real Madrid and let's be honest you don't really need to do much there do you? His challenge was to stop the seemingly unstoppable force that is called Barcelona which he did and he seems to take pride in judging from interviews. However I wouldn't call that stopping I'd call it stalling. They won the league the season after with Mourinho being criticized for everything he did that next season. Dropping Casillas (He still can't get in to the starting line up so Kudos there) but also losing the dressing room. He obviously had his loyal players which were the Portuguese. I work with Portuguese people and obviously can't be used on all Portuguese but they all worship him and Ronaldo and if you say anything bad about them an argument would kick off. As I said I can't speak for all Portuguese but I am guessing he had their backing and also the backing of again players he had previously worked with and also a few other players.
Now he is back at Chelsea and I'll list his signings.
André Schürrle: Hardly a hidden gem
Marco Van Ginkel: Started to make a name for himself as a starlet but still a risk.
Mark Schwarzer: Needed a back up keeper?
Samuel E'too: A player he has worked with before and a big reputation.
Willian: Maybe bought him as there was hype around him with Liverpool and Tottenham wanting him.
Christian Atsu: Portuguese and again was making a name for himself and hardly a hidden gem.
I also use a similar argument to why Pep Guardiola isn't that great but that's for another time.
Well there is my rant over and hope you enjoy ;)
Lets not forget that Man Utd had a better team to start with so would not need to spend as much and that the 80m received for Ronaldo will have made a massive difference to the figures.
ReplyDeletejamie, i note you constantly compare Benitez's spending between 2004 and 2010....remember benitez was building a side, he had a project, fergie was merely adding players to an already talented side, so your comparison with regards to that is totally off!!! naturally you spend more when building....
ReplyDeleteand after this article....im convinced you're a dickhead, your hatred for benitez shines through, you slate our transfer dealings since the 90's where's the relevenace in that????? yet you forget benitez had to sell to buy..........
ReplyDeleteIt is all well and good for Britishman Fergie to blast Benitez. Macherano Keeps wining against Fergie's greatest signing Ronaldo
ReplyDeleteRafa certainly wasted a lot of money. But for Fergie to say Torres and Reina were the only ones who were 'Liverpool' quality isn't true.
ReplyDeleteBut then what else would you expect from Fergie. he isn't exactly going to be heaping praise on Liverpool.
I think jerry is right here jaimie, after all, its always easier and cheaper to buy players to add to a title winning squad than it is when your playing catch up like Jamie carragher said
ReplyDeleteHaving supported Moyes appointment i think he is giving him a lot of problems
ReplyDeleteYNWA..... LIVERPOOL.KOP. the name itself means it bout Liverpool BUT WTF r u guys talking bout Fergie or his watever book!!!!! The post is bout former manager spending ,former players performing.. So wat the issue n purpose u posting this Jamie ???? GET ON THE BUS N LET GO OF THE PAST.....
ReplyDeleteWhere can i get access to the club records to read how much lfc spent?
ReplyDeleteis it economics or football your talking about look at the table look at our team look at your team npow think which is more exciting .look at the real euro cup look for one at old trafford look at the force on its way look at moyes
ReplyDeletethen look around you count numbers and count how many fingers you have count fergusons rage at the greats like paisley count the fact a legend like shankley was his hero count liverpool knocking aberdeen out of the euro cup also count he is or was one of the greatest managers ever but hes a nasty piece of work inne not to everyone ryan ride his brothers wife never gets a mention as for scholes gerrard its laughable and i think the accolades from european pears make this clear /what he said about kean fuck ,e thats a disgrace did he watch the match in turin / not your enemy but fully laughing
ReplyDeleteJamie K = Judas
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of respect for Utd's success over the years and they and their ex manager are the ultimate model of how to win and win consistently over decades... BUT I FREAKIN' HATE THEM! (you can have both is all i'm saying)
ReplyDeletejamie,you can argue till the cows come home on whether we spent more than utd for little reward but the essence of the post was about kuyt and masch not been liverpool class.now anyone with a modicum of footballing knowledge can see that fergies comments on these two are completely wrong.masch was/is a fabulous player who gives his heart and soul in every match,as for kuyt my only gripe with rafa was playing kuyt out of position,dirk was never a winger and his exposure there cost us many promising moments in games cos of his obvious lack of guile on the wing,however whenever he played up front kuyt caused teams problems and scored some very important goals.as for fergies book,well u can have your views on him but to be fair to all pool fans jamie,hes a bitter ,twisted man who even in retirement cant help himself with his loathsome comments.his lack of respect for former utd greats shows us all what kind of man he really is and i for one aint sorry to see the back of him.
ReplyDeletei only agree a point is when we win CL is not benitez team...yes is benitez tactic for sure but the effective squad is not from his transfer regime
ReplyDeleteYeah but you Jamie would agree with anything old whiskey nose peaodo says anyway. So IMO your opinion counts for nowt
ReplyDeleteThat is just plain stupid
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing speculative, simply look at the purchases Fergie made in the 5 years prior to Rafa arriving, Fergie outspent Rafa, that's a fact
ReplyDeleteJaimie, you are a fraud, first, you do your best to help fuel the media frenzy of chasing Suarez away, now you take numbers out of an equation and turn them into a misleading "fact"
ReplyDeleteHow much money left other clubs to come to LFC during the same time that 289m was spent
ReplyDeleteits not just about the footy for whiskey nose but the money.
ReplyDeleteA great Manager (Paisley) once said "other people have earned more than me in football but no-one has enjoyed it as much"
whiskey nose can't say that after his disrepectful rants
In fairness, if Henderson let a comment like that affect his confidence, then I'm afraid he has much larger issues than his running style.
ReplyDeleteWho cares what Fergie thinks. Why does he feel its necessary to slag off other teams purchases? when he signed the likes of Bebe, Anderson, Kleberson, Veron, Barthez, Carroll (the Keeper), Bosnich. He also allowed average players like Cleverley play for United. He bought Zaha from Palace who has now gone missing. Fergie should look at his own record rather than Rafa's.
ReplyDeleteTorres was sold after Benitez left, so that doesn't count in your argument against Benitez spending more ... think you're really losing it - how can you use gross spend to say Benitez spent more when any logical person would use net spend?? It's simple economics!
ReplyDeleteOk let's talk double standards re Fergie
ReplyDeleteHe demanded total loyalty, then revealed private conversations
He said never made it personal, but got rid of anyone who dared to stand up to him (Stam, Becks, Keane etc)
He said control was his secret, then called Rafa a 'control freak' disparagingly
He had a go at Kenny for supporting Suarez, yet made Cantona his captain following him drop kicking a SUPPORTER
He said SG wasn't a Top, top player after saying he was 'he PL's most influential player' and tried twice to buy him
He banned any reporter who displeased him, but used the media ( and still does) when it suits him to get his point across ( the overrated mind games thing)
He wasted millions himself on flops like Veron, and more recently Young, Nani Hargreaves yet went on about 4 or 5 LFC purchases being not good enough
Double Standards indeed.
No need for the paedo thing Freddy. And everyone's opinion is up to them, you are free to disagree, as I do. BUT QUIT THE NAME CALLING, we're better than that.
ReplyDeleteFergie's disciples always believe that crap, but it negates the fact that by the time Rafa turned up at Liverpool, Manure already had in their ranks the likes of £30m Ferdinand, £12m Ronaldo (huge money for a teen), £19m Nistlerooy, £12m Saha etc. etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteLiverpool's superstar and most valuable player Owen was all but off to Real for a staggering £8m... hmmm. Manure were still an absolute powerhouse of a team in spite of Chelsea's emergence and Arsenal's "Invincibles" season. Liverpool were nowhere.
Rafa had relatively little to spend compared to the likes of Chelsea, who were pretty much in the same boat previously. Yet Rafa kept us on their coattails and even challenged for the title.
Swallowing up all the crap that Fergie bends over and shoots out of his arse is easy. Engaging common sense and establishing the reality is difficult for the masses, thankfully LFC supporters know better.
ive just nearly finished the book every time I think ive finished another 6 pages start to appear!!!!! howard webb me thinks
ReplyDeleteJAMIE AHAHAHA, who's cares what fergie said or what they have won when fergie was there, football is about NOW and the present so Man U are in 8th and struggling to beat awful teams , they got stuffed by west brom a few weeks ago and Liverpool just made mockery out of them , Man U will never win a league title again with moyes FACT moyes is average and clueless so far Man U have kept 1 clean sheet which was a 0-0 GREAT, clueless moyes
ReplyDeleteMascherano was a top player, although, not a top, top player.
ReplyDeleteOkey-dokey. Thanks for answering.
ReplyDeleteVoronin came on a free, and was not nearly as bad as some muppets keep reiterating.
ReplyDeleteAll things considered, Benitez has proven at Valencia, LFC, Chelsea, and now Napoli, that he is a top notch Manager.
Ferguson needed five wasted years, and then the incredible luck of receiving several world class players all at once from the MUFC academy, to succeed. And he left a mess behind now that he left. He is no more than a pretentious moron. Just ask Roy Keane, who did more for the scum than the blue nosed moron.
Best comment made by Rafa . My thoughts exactly the same as a neutral
ReplyDeleteRespectful or not respectful, when he's wrong he's wrong. I have great respect for his achievements as a manager and I fully understand his relationship with Benitez was not the best. As people, they're both stubborn at best and that always clashes. He's also right that Benitez's transfers were not that great, in general, but when he spent big he mostly got it right until the last two years of his reign. To say we were boring must mean he forgot how we demolished his side 4-1 and how, when we finished second, that was completely down to us, Stoke and Boro and had nothing to do with Man U's achievements. That said, I understand his selective memory but if someone wants to moan about Benitez's transfers, Kuyt and Mascherano are probably not the greatest examples. It's a bit sad though that he cannot bury the hatchet after all these years. The man obviously has a lot of frustration left in him and envy even though he's beaten our title record. Such a small thing to do for such a big man really. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't his last book.
ReplyDeletewhy dont you fuck off jamie wankar you fuckin manc lover.
ReplyDeleteIn your figures, there should be a footnote for Rafa's first season in charge. Cisse was a £14 million signing that was sanctioned by Houllier and Liverpool pre-Rafa. Houllier left but the money went through for Cisse anyway. Cisse was never a Rafa type player or a Rafa buy. That would bring down the figures somewhat. Man U also had Tevez playing for them (during the Benetiz era) without ever paying for him due to their 2 year loan contract. So his added value to the team would not be registered in your figures. I'm sure you'd see the figures of value added even up considerably after factoring in those two points.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, Rafa was only given a certain amount to spend on the first team on a player by player basis so ended up paying for squaddies. For example, when Parry did not see the value in spending £8 million for Dani Alves because that was deemed excessive for a full back who could also play right wing. So LFC went for Pennant for just under £7 million. Rafa was not allowed to go for many of his first choice signings who wanted to come to LFC because the money was not given to him. He then had to spend often times on third choice signings who were more affordable by the club. How could you build an optimal team to compete for the title if you're forced to go for third choice players? Has any manager ever won a title like that? I don't think so.
There is a story behind the numbers that a spreadsheet cannot cover.
Borini and Allen were bought when BR came in without a scouting department (whom LFC later appointed from Newcastle - on gardening leave). It was a situation where owners wanted to spend of the sake of showing support to their new manager and BR had to buy his type of players (not really LFC type of players). The later acquisitions were much more spot on like Coutinho and Sturridge. Aspas, Alberto, IIlori are still too early to say but Toure (free), Sakho, Mignolet, Moses (loan), Cissokho (loan) are considered good business. Forgot to talk about Assaidi mostly forgettable.
ReplyDeletePeople also forget Scholes position in the England team was under threat from Frank Lampard when he "retired" from international football.
ReplyDeleteFerguson had already spent 30 27 and 22 million on 3 players before Benitez came - Veron Hargreaves etc were great buys. so use what Benitez spent at in the same time at his two clubs when he won two la ligas then it will be a fair comparison - try it.
ReplyDeleteAll this who spent what came into fashion after Ronaldo was sold for 80 million. Ferguson would not have won 2 Spanish titles after only a couple of years in charge it took him 7 years to win anything. It burned him up, it ate him up when Rafa won in Istanbul - BEAUTIFUL.
ReplyDelete