29 Apr 2013

Read it and Weep: Proof that Suarez has made no difference to LFC this season

Last night, I posted an article arguing that Liverpool would not miss Luis Suarez if he left this summer. Despite his goals, the Uruguayan is nowhere near as 'irreplaceable' as some fans insists, and the same baseless counter-argument keeps coming up, i.e. without Suarez this season, Liverpool would've plummeted down the table, and/or would be in the relegation zone. Neither contention is anywhere near the the truth, and whether Reds fans like it or not, the unpalatable truth is this: Suarez is not integral to Liverpool's success, and without him this season, the team would've been in *exactly* the same position as it is now.

Don't believe me? Well, here's the proof. The following table** shows Premier League rankings WITHOUT the goals of each team's top scorer:

 photo ScreenShot2013-04-29at092221_zpsdcfe4682.png

* Without Suarez's goals this season, Liverpool would *still* be in seventh place.

* Suarez's goal have only brought LFC an additional 9 points across the season.

* Additionally, Despite scoring 38% of Liverpool's goals, Suarez's strikes have only contributed 18% of Liverpool's total points tally.

According to Steve Nicol on ESPN last night, Suarez 'has kept Liverpool from fighting relegation' this season, but the table above is irrefutable proof that:

a) Liverpool would NOT be in the relegation zone right now without Suarez (the very idea of it is just preposterous)

b) Suarez is NOT irreplaceably important to LFC.

It is utterly ridiculous to keep peddling the myth that Liverpool can't survive without Suarez; these stats prove the club CAN, and WILL be okay without him.

The sycophantic praise and adulation Suarez receives - from both fans and the club's management - is predicated on his alleged importance to the club, but as you can see, this importance is grossly exaggerated.

If Suarez had left last summer, another player would've come in and scored goals. There's a chance this striker may not have scored as many as the Uruguayan, but equally, there's a chance he *would* have scored as many, if not more.

This is no slight on Suarez himself - the guy is a superb player, and he deserves immense praise for the goals he's scored this season, and credit to him for finishing second in the POTY contest last night. However, he causes too many problems (!), and regularly disrespects the club and everything for which it stands.

This is why I argue that LFC could massively benefit from selling Suarez. It's *not* personal - the issues I have with Suarez are solely related to the negative things he does in an LFC shirt, and after two seasons of bringing the club into disrepute, there's nothing wrong with considering whether the club would be better-off *overall* without him.

If Suarez's goals have made no difference to LFC's league position this year, then what does the club have to lose by letting him go? If the stats showed that Suarez had 'singlehandedly carried Liverpool' this season - as so many fans rabidly attest - then perhaps I'd think differently, but that's not the case. The benefits, however, of letting him go are potentially massive:

* £40m+ to add to existing transfer funds to improve all areas of the team.
* A 100% reduction in negative incidents bringing adverse publicity on LFC.
* A move to a more team-orientated approach, instead of over-reliance on one player.
* Suarez replaced with someone who won't get banned for 19 games.
* An end to LFC/Rodger/Ayre repeatedly prioritising one individual over the club.

FSG are stone-cold businessmen, so if Rodgers has to sit down and persuade the group that LFC *need* Suarez and/or he is vital to the Reds' cause, what is his argument? Where is the proof?

Whatever anyone thinks, the bottom line is this: Suarez is not irreplaceable, and he's not even that integral to Liverpool's league progress. Deal with it :-)

** Stats: BBC



NOTE: Please stick to the Comment Policy (Click to read)


183 comments:

  1. i totally agree with you but that table doesnt say the whole story cause there are other parts like personal brilliance and assists which you have left out

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  2. That stuff doesn't matter. How has his 'personal brilliance' made any difference to LFC's league position this year? That's the point.


    I don't deny that Suarez is a fantastic players. I love watching him play, but the club has the chance to make some real money, improve the team, and remove a player who constantly brings negative publicity on the club. Weighing everything up, it won't hurt Liverpool to sell.

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  3. Hold on a second, is this for each of the teams top scorers? i.e. Utd without RVP etc... That is a little misleading if it is. Where would be if it was just Suarez missing, because that is what we are talking about.

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  4. this is really clutching at straws now suarez as saved our season imo and before xmas was the only reason worth watching the matches ,jaimie we know you want him out but god change the record ,its every other thread

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  5. Jamie, you need to also look at his overall contribution to the team when he has played, like assists etc and all other game related stats, you can't hinge it all just on goals he's scored. It's also a very speculative argument and therefore proves absolutely nothing, I mean "ifs, "ands" and "buts" cannot be quantified. "If" Suarez had not been playing, Borini might have not got injured and he may have scored 50 goals, highly unlikely though, but I think you get what I am trying to say.

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  6. That table is without any top scorers so if Lfc didn't have Suarez and all the other teams still had there top players where would we be then? I bet it would change? Just a theory!!

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  7. Will, what exactly is the distinction?! The bottom line is without Suarez, LFC would be in the same position now. He's only been worth an extra nine points, and if another striker was in his position this season, who's to say he wold've done any worse (in terms of actual impact)?

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  8. Ah, yes - it's clutching at straws when it's something you disagree with. Why don't you - for once - attempt to engage in proper debate and come up with a legitimate counter argument. How exactly has Suarez 'saved' LFC's season? There is no evidence for that. There is, however, evidence to show that LFC would've been in the same position without Suarez's goals.

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  9. all this talk about luis suarez is getting you down my friend
    and the drugs don,t work they just make it worse
    but i hope we get to see him pull the famous red shirt on again

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  10. It's not speculative at all; it's fact. At the end of the day, LFC's progress is measured in facts, not vague generalisations. i.e. did the club improve its league points tally? Did the club's league position improve etc. Suarez has only 5 assists all season, and only two of his goals have been winning goals. He just isn't as integral as people try to make out.


    I don't post this to make out that Suarez is irrelevant; he's not - he's a top players. I post it to counter the gross hysteria over this alleged contribution to the team. Fans constantly come out with subjective generalisations about how important he is./how LFC would be in the relegation zone etc, when the factual reality is practically the complete opposite.

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  11. What? That doesn't even make sense! If LFC didn't have Suarez, the club would have *another striker* in his place! Why don't you acknowledge that? Or would Liverpool play with 10 men every game?!

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  12. Well based on that table 9 points puts just below Chelsea, so that is a differnce?

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  13. jaimie before xmas the play was dreadful suarez alone carried us he was the only player worth watching ,even you cannot disagree with that why not run a poll about suarez forget the money are we better with him or without,other players get miles more space when hes on the pitch because at times it seems the entire oppositions defence have been sent out with the instructions to stop suarez at all costs ,and against newcastle if coutinho had played in the same posision suarez would have had a hat full because he never stops moving

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  14. Yer I'm not saying we play with ten men! Lfc would have 42 points without suarez goals and that would put us 8-9

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  15. jaimie if we win a game 3/2 andsuarez scores the first two goals as he not contributed to the 3points

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  16. Stupid cos while you say we would still be in 7th place without Suarez's goals, your 'chart' has ALL the teams without their top goal scorers which doesn't really make sense. 42 points would really leave us on the same points as Swansea in 8th/9th place. I personally think we'd be in arguably a better position because a lot of the time Suarez is gready in front of goal and tries to go it alone instead of using his team mates to pass into the net. The Newcastle game demonstrates this perfectly where it was a great team effort with goals from Hendo, Sturridge, Borini & Agger.

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  17. I don't see your point. You seem to be focusing on things that have no relevance. The point here is simple: without Suarez's goals this season, LFC would still be in the same position it's in now. IF Suarez was so important to LFC, the club would be way down the alternate league.

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  18. With respect, you clearly do not get the table, or the point being made, so there's no point wasting time discussing it with you. You're in denial, it's as simple as that.

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  19. For your logic to work and for us losing Suarez you'd also have to convince every other chairman to also sell their top goal scorer. All that table really shows is that we might not be as dependent as people may think. He has certainly made a difference and anyone who thinks he hasnt is a fool. Can he be replaced? probably, I never thought Torres would be replacable and along came Suarez, there is no reason why it cannot be done again.

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  20. No, you're comparing the *alternate* table with the *real* table (i.e. the table including top scorers). That's obviously not a valid comparison.

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  21. Sorry you might have just missed my edit, using the above 42 points (without suarez's goals) in the current PL table puts us in 10th.

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  22. I don't think that table really is enough to measure whether or not he has made a difference to our season. Firstly, does it include assists? not sure what his are like but they may count. Also there are matches that he may not have got the winning goal but may not have won without him.


    I can see the benefit og selling him as you say. The problem is if we don't use the money wisely and end up with turnips then its all for nothing. I think the best solution would be to keep him and put him in the Greame Souness Last chance saloon. If we could get CL next season his sale could be far easier managed

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  23. you know jamie this would have made sense if liverpool were in seventh when you have not counted his goals but all the remaining teams were in their actual position(by actually considering the goals by their top scorers).

    when you want to prove that suarez did not make any difference you should have compared lpool's position without his contribution to all the remaining teams with their actual position because the situation that you have presented in the table is hypothetical. you just want to asses suarez's contribution. but with your table you have nullified the other teams's top scorer contribution which is not an apt comparision because you are also including them in your comparison indirectly.

    you might say that you comparing lpool's team(without suarez) with other teams(without their top scorers). still it doesnt make any sense.

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  24. Also Jamie, Suarez has saved LFC 14 points from scoring the vital goal in some of our Draws, in addition to scoring the winning goal in at least matches, now correct me if I'm wrong that makes at least 20 points, now deduct those 20 points from where we are now in 7th and tell me again his contribution has not helped and we would be in exactly the same place. I think your article is misleading and NOT based on all the facts. We'd "could possibly" be on or around the 22 points mark which is most definitely in the relegation battle zone.
    Like I said earlier "ifs" "ands" and "buts"

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  25. No he is right your saying suarez goals haven't helped us but they have otherwise by ur table we would have 42 points instead of 54

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  26. maybe there is some way without lets say goals conceded from set plays and pens we could manafacture the table so we won the league

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  27. Suarez did NOT carry LFC before Christmas. There are other players in the team, not just Suarez. In fact, from November until the new year, Suarez scored only 3 goals in 9 games, so how is that carrying the team by himself?! You seriously need to wake up - your idolisation of the man means you can't look at things fairly.

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  28. yes lfc would have another striker then other teams might also have some players who score more goals than our players. then we would not be in the same position

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  29. This is one of the most artificial arguments I have ever from a pseudo-journalist pedalling more agendas than sense.

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  30. but would the other striker have scored as many goals

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  31. I think FSG are aware of this statistic and it is probably why they have decided against appealing his 10 match ban. I had my doubts how much he will remain a Liverpool player by next year as soon as LFC said they would not be appealing his harsh punishment. Now, after the Newcastle game, I have even more doubts.


    Against Newcastle, I have my doubts whether we would have been able to score that amount of goals if Suarez was playing. Most of our goals came from spreading our play, using our pace as well as making use of all of the pitch. When Suarez plays, we tend to send him a lot of through balls and he can get marked out of a game. (eg. against West Ham) We also have a tendency to slow down the attack by relying on his brilliance too much. Same situation occurred with Carroll when we had to play him alone upfront. I am not against Carroll's return, but we must work on his mobility and definitely not use him as a target man unless that's what it takes to force out a result. (kind of like what Borussia Dortmund did in the final minutes against Malaga).


    Selling Suarez would be a gamble because there is not doubt about his technical quality. However, I feel that sometimes his intelligent play holds us back and we rely tactically too much on him, and it is probably why with or without him we would be no better off. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho probably have altered the significance Suarez has on Liverpool as a team as well and this might be a reason why this statistic is showing this result. I do not have access to other aspects of it though so I can't really say, but if I am not mistaken, by December, had it not been for Suarez's goals, we would have been in the relegation zone. If anything, that shows how far the team has improved under Rodgers.

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  32. Sorry, but that's spurious reasoning, and it's not even accurate:

    * Suarez has saved LFC 8 points from scoring in draws, not 14.

    * In 2-2 draws, what about the other LFC player who scored? Why does his goal not carry equal weight?

    The article is not misleading at all. It's only misleading because you want it to be so you can preserve the superhuman image of Suarez you have in your head.

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  33. and how many did the rest of the team manage and i do not idolise him i just defend him because imo your unfair on him to the point of obsession a bit like idolisation in reverse

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  34. that is we should be looking at. we should be looking at where lfc would be in the "real table" without suarez's contribution. but i think you have missed that point.

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  35. that is we should be looking at. we should be looking at where lfc would be in the "real table" without suarez's contribution but not at some hypothetical table.i think you have missed that point.

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  36. With respect, this makes absolutely no sense. Why would I compare LFC *without* Suarez to other teams *with* their top scorers? How is that fair? It would yield pointless results of zero merit.

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  37. Jaimie your logic is flawed...this table you use as evidence only shows what may have happened if all teams lost their top scorer - not just if Liverpool didn't have Suarez. Therefore it is completely useless as evidence that we don't need him.

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  38. No, you have missed the point. You're forgetting the impact of another player in Suarez's place.

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  39. if suarez's goals have been worth 9points, then that puts us on 45 points, 3 ahead of swansea 3 behind the baggies, in 8th not 7th

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  40. if you do not know where we stand in the real table without suarez how are saying that he did not make any difference.

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  41. I'm not wasting my time on this spurious reasoning. You are so in-denial you can't see the wood for the trees. Try removing your pro-Suarez glasses for five seconds and consider the table, and what it means as objectively as possible.

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  42. The above 42 points have *nothing* to do with the actual table! Why do you persist on making this false comparison? The actual table includes goals scored by top scorers of other teams, thus there comparison is not fair or valid.

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  43. Jamie what about points saved by scoring in all those draws, that would dent our position

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  44. Jason, stick to the point: Suarez scored 3 goals in 9 games between 17 November and 1s Jan 2013. How is that carrying the team? How is that having a major impact?

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  45. You can't judge Suarez on point-winning goals alone. There are all sorts of factors to consider when judging a players importance in a team. To name a few; Pulling other players out of position through movement, assists, goal scoring chances created, starting moves from deep, from wide, from the middle.


    Suarez is a complete forward. There is no other player in the Prem like him.


    He is replaceable yes, but only with someone equally as good. There aren't too many of them around and it would be a huge gamble in getting rid of him. If he was sold for the touted figure of £40m who could we really replace such a player with.

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  46. Where have I argued otherwise?

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  47. The argument is flawed and you know it!! this is due to everyone else having their top scorer taken away. So lets be real, If hypothetically we did not have Suarez at the start of this season we would be significantly worse than the 42 points due to the following reasons;

    - Suarez for 6 months was our only viable option, remember Sturridge and Coutinho did not come in till jan.

    - without a recognized world class striker leading the line teams would of been able to put increased pressure on us in their attack making results a lot different in the first 6 months.

    - Does the above include his interlinking play, when he won the ball high up the field, assists and other factors?

    How some do not remember the start of the season when we did not have carroll, no Dempsey and only an injured broken borini and Suarez had to to lead the line single handily and without him we would of just passed it sideways and backwards for 90 minutes.



    Your hatred for Suarez is truly phenomenal and it is starting to effect your ability to promote a good argument , something i believe you are good at!

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  48. Errr yes it makes perfect sense. The reality is that if we not had Suarez, we would have had someone else yet the other clubs would still have their players. That IS what the argument is. Had we not had Suarez we don't know who we would have had. So we could have been worse of, we could have been better of, no one knows. I'm happy we had Suarez though and I hope that he won't allow a bunch of xenophobes at the FA to drive him out of the country. As a matter of fact, if Suarez's actions say anything about his personality, he would stick around for at least another year to bring us back into the top four. Challenging for the title is obviously out of the question since there will be magical suspensions for which ever team comes close to FA United.

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  49. Of course its valid, you are saying without Suarez, Liverpool would be no worse off, but thats only WHEN you take everyone elses top scorers away.

    If you just take Saurez's goals away then we are 10th.

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  50. Unless you analyse Suarez's role in every league game you are not really in a position to make a sensible argument as to what his value to the team is.

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  51. I appreciate this table tells the story for the season up to now but a similar scenario was done by Sky Sports in December about Liverpool without Suarez and it had Liverpool down in 18th place.

    Before Sturridge and Coutinho joined the club and Gerrard's form improved, Suarez had 49% of Liverpool's goals.

    If your point is we can do without Suarez if he goes, I can understand that point because we survived Torres departure and many other lethal strikers departure before that.

    What I do not subscribe to is the notion of actively pushing out a key player because we have survived such departures before.

    Would it not be better to keep our best players and try to rehabilitate them since it is the club's responsibility towards its staff so we do not have a repeat of Gazza who received not much support from his old clubs despite his contributions to them.

    Suarez like Gazza has his own inner demons he needs help to deal with rather than using them as a stick to beat them down with.

    The fact Merson and Le Tissier are gainfully employed by sky despite their drug and gambling pasts should soften some hearts that anyone can be helped to turn around.

    Tony Adam was helped getting back from his alcoholism issues by getting coaching jobs and even Stuart Pearce who had racist stuff to say towards Paul Ince is currently the England under 21 manager.



    The same media that wants to run Suarez out of England is hopeful of John Terry being ready to step in to help out England in the event of a defensive crisis while also enthusiastic about fellow bite club member Defoe in the England squad.


    I would not want Liverpool to lose Suarez and the premier league also losing another top player since not many of those world class talents are no longer England bound as they are being made in or preferring to go to Spain, Germany and Italy.


    Despite record sponsorship, the premier League is headed for the doldrums that Serie A found themselves in after periods of domination.

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  52. Also he has never hit anyone with a golf-club. No one complained when Bellamy came back again.

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  53. Yes, as I've already argued, LFC would've had someone else in Suarez's place. We could've been better off, or we could've been worse off. What *wouldn't* have happened is LFC in the relegation zone, which is the ridiculous argument many fans have put forward to justify Suarez's alleged importance to the club.

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  54. because we are on about LS impact not the other players!!!

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  55. That is taken into account in the table! Th rankings are based on LFC's position without Suarez's goals, including goals in draws.

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  56. Yes, and Suarez's impact is nowhere near as great as the grossly exaggerated propaganda spread by LFC fans.

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  57. the other player might not have scored as many goals as suarez did. even if he did other teams below us in your table might have had some other players who are better than the another player (in suarez's place) and they might have scored more goals. who knows. nobody knows. not even you.

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  58. if you do not know where we stand in the real table without suarez how are saying that he did not make any difference

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  59. So ur whole point is wrong suarez has contributed because without him we would have at least 42 points

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  60. End of the day Jaimie, if Suarez had left last summer we would still probably have Andy Carroll in the side, how many goals do you think he would have scored? Please don't quote any West Ham stats as they are set up to play a completely different way to us that is more to AC's capabilities.
    So, say we had AC playing and not scoring a lot (no stretch of the imagination needed) it wouldn't be difficult to imagine the squads confidence taking hit after hit and that might have taken us as a TEAM to a difficult and dark place in the league (again not too much of a stretch of the imagination).
    So which team would you rather see play every weekend and which one do you think the players would rather play in, with LS or without LS?


    If the manager and players think he's an important part of the squad then, end of story, he's an important part of the squad. Or do we, as fans, tell the players and manager who they should prefer playing with or without in the team? No I don't think so...

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  61. I appreciate your points, and I totally understand why you think this way. I, however, cannot share your view on keeping Suarez. He is too much hassle, causes too many problems, and brings masses of negative publicity onto LFC. He makes the club hated by non-LFC fans, and he damages the club's reputation. If that wasn't true, then sponsors wouldn't warn the club about his conduct (i.e. Standard Chartered).


    For me the issue is simple: It's Suarez or LFC. I support LFC, not Suarez FC, and looking at the bigger picture, and considering things a little more objectively, it's clear (IMO) that he is NOT that important to the club's future progress, and the Reds could cash-in on him, get big bucks and move forwrd positively

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  62. You are the one in denial mate, we are where we are in the league, end of story. With or without Suarez, this is the reality... Because you're the editor of the site doesn't mean everything you say is right. To be quite honest you talk out of your hole and I question whether you're a Liverpool fan at all

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  63. Jamie I gave a counter argument and a very valid one at that, his goals have saved us numerous points when he scored in draws in addition to his 2 match winning goals, we would have dropped at least one spot

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  64. I disagree. If Suarez had left last summer, the club would've bought someone else. Why would they stick with Carroll when Rodgers made it unambiguously clear he doesn't rate him?


    And yes, the fans have the right to give their views about who should be in the team. That's what fans do, including you :-)

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  65. Right mate, here is your argument, lets say one game in suarez was injured for the rest of the season, now tell me, would we of done better or worse??? we would of done way worse as who else would of we played up front?? yesil, an injured borini, maybe even throw hendo up their. this is the real argument, 'would liverpool done as good this year without suarez' forget anybody else and the facts are we would of done considerably worse, do not put in the hypotheticals of we would of got someone else, we were supposed to get dempsey and messed it up and let carroll go. for 6 months it was only suarez, if he would of got injured 1 hgame in we would of been way down the positions by the time sturridge came in and i am sure the pressure on BR would of been 10 times worse.


    just ask the simple questions without the additions and you will get a simple answer.

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  66. Hey hang on a minute Jamie, I detest some of Suarez's behaviour as much as you do, don't question the image I have of him, He is not Superhuman, don't personalise your argument, I thought you didn't allow that and I find your response a little offensive and patrononising, you cannot second guess whats in my head, I am merely representing my view and backing it up with FACTS just like claim to.

    I got all my stats from an article YOU wrote, I have even posted the link but strangely it has not appeared so I guess it been not published. Knock those points off what we now have and tell me we would be in the same position, we wouldn't, we would be in at least 8th.

    Oh and once again here is the link to YOUR article

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2013/04/paul-mariner-hails-luis-suarez-player-of-the-year.html

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  67. The other player might have score MORE than Suarez. Why is that not possible? Additionally, he may not have scored as many, but he may have scored more vital goals, i.e. more winners. Suarez has only TWO outright winning goals this season.


    And let's not forget that with Suarez in the team, the club has lost/drawn 21 league games, and won only 14.


    The other striker might have turns some of the club's 12 draws into wins.

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  68. guys he just blocked me from posting on this thread for questioning this... how funny

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  69. Suarez saved LFC 8 points in draws across the season. That's it. If you're going to use that line of logic, then he also lost LFC countless points by missing endless chances. You won't want to consider that though, will you? 12 league draws this season. 12!! Suarez's job is to turn those draws into wins, is it not?

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  70. No, your last post was deleted because you resorted to derogatory comments. If you're going to be childish then go elsewhere. Do it again, and you're banned.

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  71. How's that shown in the table above?

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  72. 23 goals, seriously, who scored them goals then???

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  73. It's all hypothetical nonsense based on a deluded fantasy using manipulated stats to serve an individuals agenda. The stats manipulation is used to try and justify conjecture, nothing more, the only facts are that He does play for us, he scores goals, he plays for the team and is hard working. oh an yes he causes trouble and has done some terrible things. But here's the rub, LFC has always had troublesome players just like other clubs, remember Souness breaking Movila's jaw

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  74. Unbelievable. You still don't get it! In the table above, LFC are on a *level playing field* precisely because everyone's top scorers have been taken away. Why do you not see this?! It is blindingly obvious, which is why the BBC posted the table in the first place.

    * Suarez was the main striker for 5 months, not 6.

    * His JOB is to score goals! Why is it so amazing that he scored goals before Christmas as the MAIN STRIKER?! Is that not what he is paid to do?

    * Between November 17th and 2n Jan 2013, he scored only 3 goals in 9 games.

    * Prior to the arrival of Sturridge and Coutinho, Suarez had only 2 assists for LFC this season.



    * Factors like 'interlinking play' are irrelevant. Interlinking play etc does not win points, or change LFC's league position. ONly goals and assists do that.

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  75. Carl, this is your last warning. Stop slagging off the site/post content or you'll be banned. I'm not interested in your attempts to belittle the argument.

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  76. What does that have to do with the post you're replying to? I don't deny Suarez has scored goals, but his impact is nowhere near as great as the propaganda peddled by LC fans.

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  77. I haven't argued that is shown in the above table. lfc above is saying that:


    * We should compare LFC without Suarez to the current league table *with* everyone else's top scorers.


    I don't see how that would yield fair results because it doesn't take into account the impact of another player in Suarez's place.


    Obviously, if you compare LFC without Suarez to every other team WITH their top scorer, then LFC's position in the league will look bad (!) - the team will be missing the impact of one player, but to be fair, there has to be *someone's* impact in there.


    With Suarez's goals, LFC are still 7th, which is no great shakes.

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  78. no ones saying relegation just you to try and add more wait to your argument imo we would be about tenth in the league

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  79. so his goals may not be match winners but they have contributed to the points tally

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  80. but your not countering with a valid or factually based argument now are you, take those 8 points and deduct them from our present tally and West Brom would jump above us and We would be in 8th, that is a Fact. That is a factually based counter to your argument that is undeniable. You can't counter that with trying to then hypothetically quantify how many goals he hasn't scored lol, that's like saying if he had scored 200 goals we would have won the league.

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  81. That 'other striker in his place' would likely have been Andy Carroll - it's a tough argument that he would have even partially filled Suarez' boots.
    That said I don't disagree that it could be time to cash in on Suarez and use the funds to buy another striker/defender,
    but I still think he has made a significant contribution despite the 'hypothetical' argument that he wouldn't have been missed.

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  82. OK, maybe we would have bought Clint Dempsey - so far he's played 25, scored 6 and got 3 assists - This looked to be bang on right up till the last day of the transfer window.
    Lets be generous to CD and say if he had played 35 games as a striker he may have doubled his goal return to 12 and got a few more assists, say maybe 5. I'm not sure that would have been good enough for LFC?
    And that's not even mentioning the difference in playing style where CD would (imo) not have attracted as much attention from defenders and created as much space for the rest of the team.
    I think it's very easy to imagine this situation if LS went last summer as CD was at the time a popular target with most fans and even had praise from Tom Werner.

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  83. Therein lies the whole problem with your argument, it is only taken into account in your alternate table, apply it to the real table and we would be in 8TH

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  84. Jaimie your wife must dread having any level of disagreement with you... :)

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  85. Did that happen on the pitch?

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  86. There's absolutely no point discussing this. You are hellbent on trying to twist reality.

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  87. How is this slagging of the site or post content, I am not swearing or using any form of bad language, nor am I being derogatory, I have posted numerous valid counters which are neither offensive nor derogatory to any person or to the site or it's content. I have posted links to one of Your Own articles to justify my point of view and to counter/debate this present one yet you negate to publish those, Why?
    You have the cheek to publish what you perceive my mindset is and then don't allow me to defend my views. Just because I disagree with you on this issue and put forwards valid reasoning should not get me banned, but I suppose because I challenge your view this reply in itself will get me banned and probably wont get published.

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  88. You can go over comments on articles regarding Suarez and find numerous instances of fans stating that. Check before you question.

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  89. Isn't it possible that with the Suarez cash, LFC would've looked at more expensive strikers than Dempsey?

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  90. Statistics even old ones like these lie. it takes no account of assists, of defending high up the pitch, of allowing stonger defence being up on his own.
    we would be in the same position with no one watching.

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  91. Jamie would you still support man utd is Suarez went there.

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  92. Jaimie you know nothing about football. Go buy 5 darren bents and be happy.

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  93. 42 points is relegation - statistics.

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  94. how do you know hes that way inclined you should not jump to conclusions he seems like a nice boy;-)

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  95. They had only Suarez as a proven striker when Borini got injured who was going to knock em in Shelvey playing as a false number 9.
    That statement is so wrong how could any team be just as good without their best player especially one that lacks depth.

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  96. I think you also need to adjust for such as:
    LS's through ball for Raheem's winning goal against Reading in a 1-0; the two penalties LS won against Villa and Spurs which got us extra points; LS got the crucial opening goals in bigger wins such as Norwich away, Wigan at home and QPR away. Your argument is an interesting one but I think you have vastly understated LS's importance.

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  97. Sorry Jamie, I think your post was not intended for me since it's now been deleted

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  98. Suarez is the biggest asset we have playing or not - he needs a strong manager like Rafa.

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  99. Jamie the season started on November 17 what the heck was i watchin before then.

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  100. Spare me the crocodile tears. In two posts earlier on, you resorted to derogatory comments (a-hole etc).

    Those posts are now deleted. You can disagree all you like, but when you resort to attacking the person and not the argument, your comments will be deleted.

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  101. One point the author miss out: amount of key passes and assists he made

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  102. As I have said many times, I think Suarez isnt as needed as people make out. Yes he is a great player but he is also wasteful. Yes I would like him to stay, but if he does go and we get good money for him it wont be the end of us, if anything I think we will do better.


    You see it alot when a top player leaves the club often does better. On paper it makes no sense but it does happen. When Ronaldo left Utd was it the end of utd? no. Yet Ronaldo was prob the best or second best player in the world at that time and still is.


    When Torres left did we drop to the championship? nope, when fowler left did we? nope, when Owen left did we? nope. Players come and go. Of course you want to keep your best ones but sometimes one player can become to big and I think the rest of the team suffers for it by starting to rely on that one player. Just look at the game against newcastle. Sure Newcastle were poor but the team looked like it was playing as a team, not get the ball to Suarez and then sit and watch him do his thing.

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  103. The argument is flawed, that is a table of all of the teams without there top scorers not just Suarez. You are therefore also saying Van Persie is also not needed at Man U as they still finished 1st on the table.

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  104. WOW you clearly need to look what your just wrote Jamie. The stats say if all of the other teams top scorers werent there they would be 7th, if all other 19 teams did have there top scorers and we we didnt have Suarez where would we be then????? Answer that genius. Keep up your agenda against Suarez ya hes done wrong but how can you justify selling our tailsman and single world class player.

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  105. Sorry, but you just do not get it at all, and I don't have time to waste explaining the same point again.

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  106. Yes, but for the 100th time, the point is that if United didn't have RVP, they'd have someone else in his place!

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  107. Am wondering why you did not put the amount of assist he gave. Also, the games we tied if he did not scored we had lost those games, Sunderland, Chelsea, Everton, Man City those alone would have put us in 8th depending on goals. Now the goals he did score to help for example Spurs game. By the way why should I weep and if you have all the *FACTS why do you find yourself defending it so much!?

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  108. A quick question Jaime, have you actually seen Suarez playing this season??(strong sarcasm). Seriously, you DO realize how good he is, right? He is by far, the best and most influential player we have, no? His goals scored plus his hunger on the pitch surely must out-way the negatives. I am deeply embarrassed by his actions but when push comes to shove, I am delighted he is scoring goals for Liverpool and not Bayern Munich or whoever.

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  109. Hi Jamie. Long time reader, first time poster here. I do think Suarez is irreplaceable. This is based on the fact that there are so few players in the world who could replicate his dynamism, technical ability and desire. Sure we could sell him and try to bring someone else in, but in all honesty there is no way we could bring in someone who could play at his level. We're upper mid-table right now and simply cannot attract top talent in the Suarez mould. Maybe we would improve next season with Suarez gone and a few players brought in with that money, however I'd rather see us improve the current squad with relevant quality players. One more season with him I think, let him have next season to prove whether or not he can change his behavior.

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  110. I see the point you are trying to make. But if you want to talk about liverpool's season without suarez' goals then all other variables must remain the same. So united would have RVP, City Aguero and so on. Otherwise you aren't actually truely looking at LFC without their top scorer. You're just looking at the league without each team's top scorer.
    Just saying.

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  111. What about key passes, succesfull dribbles, pass rate compared with Van Persie and Bale just an example ... Or these things are not part of the game ? Yeah he had a slightly lower pass rate but in other hand have more touches then VP and Bale ... Just an example Daniel Agger had 3 goals and bring us 6 points ... What that mean compared to logic above? (at least Chelsea top goalscored is "-5" and in that case Agger is "-6" as a defender) ...

    Just check some stats and see Norwich win 5:2 away (Suarez score first, second and forth and didn't bring any points) ...
    What about tackles per game and other stats that here are not even showed ?

    So you score 2 and your team made 2 errors later in game and that will bring a player zero points ... Why don't you compared his goals / points that he bring us and total of errors made by defenders in those games maybe that stats will be different ...

    Sorry but that's above is just a "these" stats ... You can compare any stats that you want (key passes/total passes, chance creating/per minutes playing and etc) but are 9 points show all that we need to look at Suarez stats ...

    Sorry for my English ... But feel that need to say something :D

    About other part yeah maybe is better to sell Suarez, but in other hand are you really think that in that moment his market price is +40mil ? Not so sure ...

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  112. I am sooo tired of the constant anti-Suarez ranting. It's as if he's the only player whose antics have ever deen a detriment to a team. This website is in danger of becoming a one issue web-site. I'm going to check out of it for a month or so and see if anything changes. If not, I'm gone.

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  113. The table show how EVRY club would be like without their top scorers; NOT just Liverpool without Suarez.

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  114. This is a very good point - also good to remind those who think we're some sort of Mickey Mouse outfit that Liverpool Football Club is still one of the biggest names in world football.

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  115. the differnce is you state 3goals in 9 games thats fair enough but i state 7 goals in 11 games bit of a differnce you took is worst period

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  116. so if a player scores 5 winning goals in a season hes more important than a player who scores 25 goals but only 3 winning goals lol

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  117. Do you really think *someone else* would have scored 23 goals, had 5 assists, and won 5 penalties? He is pretty good. What if that *someone else* was Andy Carroll, who had 4 goals in 35 games last season. About as close to not scoring as you can get. I understand not liking him as a person but his importance to the team shouldn't be denied.

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  118. No player is irreplaceable. Question is, can you replace said player with one of equal of higher quality? Most of our top players have been replaced with ones of lesser quality, hence why we're struggling to hit the Champion's League positions.


    Its an absolutely no-brainer to sell our best player and Player of the Year runner up, especially when top quality players are chomping at the bit to replace him.

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  119. but prob not as many, but even if it was as many we are moving into the realms of dream world. We would be guessing what any striker we had scored, based on nothing but our imagination and the same for who Utd got in etc.


    I could from your table agree with you and say yep he made no difference as we would have had Messi instead and Utd would have had Ngog, therefore not only did Suarez not make any difference he in fact made us worse as if we had had Messi and the other clubs had rubbish strikers we might have been top of the league.


    Its pure fantasy im afraid and prob the least best way to work out if he made a difference.


    Like him or hate him only a fool would suggest a player who scored over 30 goals in a season made no difference at all to there club.

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  120. Well clearly Reina and De Gea etc also bring nothing to there clubs a if you removed all keepers im sure the table would prob look the same.


    everyone makes mistakes, this table is one of your J-Rock. happens to the best of us lol

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  121. lol i find the table quite funny ...in an odd way ...its like something Alan partridge would put up on the day today ...his world cup o meter was priceless.....im all for selling any player if the price is right but to suggest suarez has had no bearing on our position is pure supersition..its funnty talking of obsession im watching play misty for me with clint....obssesion is a strange thing

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  122. why is the writer so annoy with himself or did anyone tell him that its a must to put up an article?

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  123. This is exactly correct - the analysis is weak at best. Trying to oversimplify the LFC situation w/out Suarez by examining one variable is rubbish and not a good predictor of reality.

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  124. Errr Jamie, I really think u got the wrong person here, I did not and will not use such foul language, I never have nor never will resort to such manner. Please try and find those posts and check that they are mine, I assure you they are not. I have been a regular contributor to your articles and you will not find one where I have exhibited any of the behaviour your accusing me of, I may disagree with you and others but I do respect yours and others opinions. I am really quite annoyed your even accusing me of this, I have used my browser history to go all the way back to my first hit to this article and can nowhere find any comments that you seem to refer to, I really think u mixing me up with someone else. Please look into it.

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  125. sometimes the fans are right and not everytime anyone disagrees with you does it mean they have some twisted love for a player or are blind to things. Sometimes its cause they are right and you are extremely wrong. Theres a fine line between sticking to your beliefs and being arrogant. Surely there must come a time when you also have to accept that just because a fan disagrees with you it doesnt mean he is a enabler, a superfan or blindly following someone.


    If you met a man in the street who had to run down the reasons for anyones view that wasnt his own and basically call them incorrect what would you think of that man?

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  126. Jamie, as an Everton fan I know I shouldn't frequent this site but I do so for one reason..... YOU !! I stumbled onto it last year through the 'Newsnow' thread, It didn't take a rocket scientist to fathom out straight away that you dislike Luis Suarez.
    When I've read all my Everton threads I invariably come on here to see what Suarez has done wrong next in your eyes ! You certainly do go out of your way to critisize the guy. He is not my favourite player by no stretch of the imagination (he plays for Liverpool for a start) but I do know that If I had a choice of every player in the Premier League to pick from to play for Everton then I would have Suarez in an instant, warts and all !! The guy is world class, a cheat, diver, racist, stamper and serial biter, but my God what a player ! Is there any chance will ever cut him any slack ?

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  127. The point is not to prove that LFC would be no worse without Suarez; it's to add weight to the contention that LFC will not wither and die without Suarez, as so many fans seem to argue.

    I've lost count of the times I've read stuff like 'LFC would be in the relegation zone without LS', or 'LS has carried LFC this season; or 'LS is irreplaceable'.

    All of the pro-Suarez propaganda is wildly exaggerated, and there needs to be something to counteract it.

    If Suarez wasn't at LFC, some other player would be here in his place; and whilst there's no guarantee that this player would have the same impact as Suarez, there's no guarantee that he *wouldn't* either (or even exceed Suarez)

    If Suarez leaves, LFC will not collapse. The world will not end, and LFC will not end up in the relegation zone. Someone else will come in, and Sturridge/Coutinho et al will pick up the slack.

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  128. How? The table already excludes all the others teams' top scorers, not just LFC's, so everyone is on a level playing field.

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  129. On another note well done JK, your fingers must be bleeding responding to this post!! LOL.


    Hypothetically imagine if we get ruined by everton at anfield on sunday, the mood will deffo change on here!!!

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  130. Suarez has definitely been mismanaged. For me, excessive praise, constant fawning by the hierarchy, and abject failure to disciple him properly are all forms of mismanagement.

    Take the Evra situation: the club should've slapped him down and made him see how unacceptable he'd behaved, but instead, Dalglish et al enabled him with the stupid T-shirt stunt, and fanned the flames of his defiance (i.e. not shaking hands with Evra) by having a belligerent, overly defensive attitude to the situation.

    Is it any wonder Suarez didn't learn his lesson with weak management like that?

    Since then, we've had countless incidents (dives/stamps/handballs etc) where the club has again turned a blind eye instead of disciplining him, which then led inexorably to the bite incident.

    Once again, the club's management of the situation - and by extension Suarez - was weak and ineffective.

    As you suggest, if the club had a manager - and a management hierarchy - that wasn't so sycophantic, then perhaps Suarez's career would've gone a different way at LFC.

    Just imagine how the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho et al would've dealt with him. These guys - maligned as they are - don't take any crap, and they definitely don't kowtow to players, no matter how good they are.

    Ferguson has regularly kicked his best players out of Old Trafford, but LFC are so servile when it comes to Suarez that they just let him get away with murder.

    I keep waiting for Liverpool to get a really strong, tough manager who doesn't kowtow to the players, but the since Benitez left, that hasn't happened.

    I support Rodgers, but to be honest, I don't see the club getting back to its previous heights - or winning the league again - until we have a strong-minded manager at the helm again, and Rodgers aint it. That may change, but I doubt it.

    It's no surprise that all of LFC's success has come with managers who have the attitude 'my way or the highway'. Shanks, Paisley and Fagan were definitely like that. Dalglish in his first spell was tough (defensive, yes, but nowhere near as unreasonable as he became in his second spell); Houllier was tough when he needed to be, and Benitez was definitely tough.

    I loved Roy Evans, and his teams played some of the most exciting football I've seen in my lifetime, but he was soft. Hodgson was soft, but didn't really get a chance; Dalglish was like Rodgers in that he put defending players before everything else, and Rodgers is the softest of the lot, and clearly has an inferiority complex.

    The exception to all this is Souness, who was tough, but he went too far in the other direction, and that also hurt the club.

    How I would love to have Brian Clough in charge of LFC right now. I'd love to see how he'd deal with Suarez. As a major proponent of fair play, he wouldn't stand for any of Suarez's antics, and the ironic thing is I believe Suarez would respond positively to a strong, tough manager, and be an even better player.

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  131. I'm sure some fans are secretly hoping we lose so they can triumphantly proclaim that the defeat is a result of Suarez not being there. Cue 'LFC is dying without Suarez' posts by the dozen. *shoots self*

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  132. Haha, serial biter. I like that :-) I don't 'dislike' Suarez' that suggest something personal, and it's not. I dislike aspects of football that involve cheating, lack of fair play/sportsmanship etc, and unfortunately, Suarez embodies all of that, which is why I am regularly on his case.

    If it was someone else, it would be exactly the same. I treat all players the same, and no matter who it is, I'll raise the issue if it's warranted.

    I'll cut Suarez some slack when he stops biting/stamping/diving/cheating. I think that's fair. If he never did any of those things, I'd have nothing to highlight except his great play.

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  133. I actually agree with most of what your saying here tbh, thats why i asked the question because i felt that Dalglish definitely did not get a handle on Suarez at all, in fact he, if anything< let the beast out of the cage to rampage around.....


    At the time i remember losing a lot of faith in Kenny because i wanted Suarez to be dealt with by the Club in a way that would have taught him that his behavior was completely unacceptable.....& whats more would have shown the footballing world that we were no longer a Club that was insular and carrying a victim complex like a big albatross on our backs....defending the indefensible....


    Perhaps Kenny wanted to wait until the season finished before dealing with him though, trying to perhaps play it down, but it certainly didn't come across like that...., i don't know really, but the T-shirt saga was simply pathetic and should never have been sanctioned or allowed by the managerial hierarchy, embarrassing to say the least!


    But the fact remains that he Suarez has been allowed to carry on like a petulant child, whilst the fan-base/managers....turn a blind eye and hope he will somehow come good.....


    I said a while ago, that BR had to get tough with some of these players if he wanted to keep his job at LFC, so far he has not dealt with certain issues which have unfortunately escalated out of control....aka Suarez.

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  134. on a more positive note we are second in the fairplay league so at least we can hold our heads up that we are one of the cleanest teams in the prem. Granted the fairplay league dont take into account things that should have been bookings but werent etc but still shows as a team we are the second cleanest in the league.

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  135. All Suarez brings is excitement in the game with his nutmegs and extra special skills.. alas that doesnt translate to 3 pointsl every weekend. However, his badside greatly outwieighs his positives. So oflfoad him ASAP. I enjoy watching him but prefer the three points every weekend.


    He is a disgrace to the civilised world and I dont for one moment buy his apologies

    SELL THE CANNIBAL

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  136. Suarez is one of the best players in the world. Have you actually seen him play live?

    We need to do everything we can to keep him. Your "analysis" is irrelevant and proves nothing. We have out scored City, Spurs and Arsenal and are one goal behind Chelsea. We need to tighten up up defence and then we will be fine.

    Also, you display a huge amount of naiivety by constantly calling for professional sportsmen to display "sportsmanship". Oxymoron of the year.

    Professional sports is plagued by cheats. Wherever money is concerned, people will do whatever it takes to get it.

    By massively incentivising winning, we promote the most ruthless to succeed.

    "Great" Olympians such as Carl Lewis, with his braces as an adult - possibly to retain his teeth in their natural alignment while his jaw was growing due to the use of Human Growth Hormone - still have clouds lingering over their reputation. He was being paid $1 million per race back in the 80s.

    Idiots argued Lance Armstrong's case for years because he was a cancer survivor.

    This isn't a 5 a side with your mates.

    Professionals push the boundaries to win. Like Jack Charlton's handball on the line v Portugal in 1966 world cup semi. Was / is he castigated as a cheat? Of course not. He was a jolly good sport that would do anything for his country.

    Suarez = column inches and money. He has been punished. If LFC wish to pay his wages for months on end while suspended that is LFCs business.

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  137. AndWithSuchSimplicity11:59 pm, April 29, 2013

    He would probably have scored more than Sturridge, who seems to need 5 or 6 touches before deciding what he's going to do with the ball.
    The incident when he was put clean through and didn't even get a shot off because he was fucking about with his Happy Feet spoke volumes.

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  138. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:04 am, April 30, 2013

    I think 30 goals is a pretty good contribution myself.

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  139. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:04 am, April 30, 2013

    But he probably wouldn't have scored 30 goals......

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  140. I agree we won't wither and die without him but the way your article comes across is all too sensational, exaggerated, for my liking anyway, somewhat like the pro-Suarez brigade you complain about. Me thinks you have overcompensated here in this article, in order to dumb down the pro-Suarez brigade. There simply is no CONCLUSIVE proof, that we wouldn't be 'in the relegation zone', as after all we were languishing around the relegation zone considerable period not so long ago under Hodgson, before KK II and Suarez signing came along in January window. I've been on record saying this is Suarez's only whole season as showing very good form in one of Europe's top leagues (i.e., La liga, PL, Bundesliga & Serie A). So I'm not that convinced about Suarez, like the so-called pro-Suarez brigade are but it is clear that Gerrard and to a lesser extent, Suarez, importance to the team is big. In the way you have tried to quantify it here in this article doesn't fully calculate that importance, let alone illustrate conclusively some of the things you have tried to get across such as making no difference to our position this year. As times goes by, whilst we are in this mediocre transition, the harder it gets to keep quality players, let alone buy quality players. Yes, gems can be discovered but easier said then done, regardless of whatever examples are out there. So I understand some people's worries on there, although I am not Suarez's biggest fan due to his behaviour and how the club handle him. Yep, Coutinho and Sturridge have started their LFC careers well but its early days. No conclusive guarantee that they will 'pick up the slack', none at all, if Suarez left. That is probably my biggest gripe with this article, the implied air of definitive proof being put across in it, when there is barely any, in my view.

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  141. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:10 am, April 30, 2013

    Can you imagine the rows at the dinner table...???? I expect he has a spreadsheet to show EXACTLY what veg should be served with each meal.

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  142. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:12 am, April 30, 2013

    Not just that, but he gets defenders that uptight and obsessed with him that they let someone like Henderson drift into 40 yards of daylight.....
    Just a thought.

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  143. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:16 am, April 30, 2013

    I know what you mean. It only seems newsworthy if Suarez does it.
    My son is convinced that Stephane Sessegnon ran to the corner flag to celebrate recently and did a dubious "salute". (I'm still trying to find a link). The media would have been all over it if it had been Suarez.
    And so would Jaimie Kanwar.

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  144. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:19 am, April 30, 2013

    For the love of God, will you give it a rest?
    We had ONE incident where he let us and the Club down, and that was last Sunday.

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  145. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:21 am, April 30, 2013

    The room was full of pissed-up WAGS and hangers on.

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  146. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:23 am, April 30, 2013

    That's bollocks and you know it. Everton is ALWAYS our biggest game of the season. Real fans wouldn't want to lose to them, just to score points off a hack like yourself.

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  147. AndWithSuchSimplicity12:25 am, April 30, 2013

    It's called ENTERTAINMENT. That's what we PAY for.


    Jeez

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  148. I'm a bit confused as to the point of this article.The alternative table was done as a bit of pointless fun for motd2 and they do similar pointless tables each week. The fact is we would be wouldn't be in the bottom three without Suarez this season but we would be worse off. You also contradict yourself by saying we over rely on him whilst claiming his contribution is not important.

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  149. Only 9 points worse off, it's not like that would be the difference between winning the league or not or qualifying for the champions league. As for another player would come in and score goals, another player could come in and not score goals as has happened in the past. I'm not saying he's irreplaceable but when you look at the battle for 4th spot 9 points would make all the difference

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  150. So players doing stupid stuff off the pitch is ok then? Drink driving, drug taking, assaulting people in pubs are now fine lads just don't do anything silly On the pitch.

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  151. Every club can buy someone else, it doesn't mean they're any good! El hadj diouf is someone else as is Danny cadamateri.

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  152. When you asked on facebook last night, you made no mention of the other teams not having their leading strikers either. the table is an alternative table with no top strikers, not a table showing liverpool with no Suarez.

    I agree with your arguement that we dont really need him, but I really dont get your logic?

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  153. We could have used the suarez money to bring in Torres!!! oh wait is that a good thing?

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  154. To be fair this doesn't prove anything... Take Suarez's goals away, without removing the other teams top scorers... And that would be the picture you are trying to paint... Nice try... Of course, the table will remain close to the same removing everyone's top scorers...

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  155. but we would have been no worse off without them;-)

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  156. wtf seriously??? emotional again?? Jaimie do you wake up, look at yourself in the mirror and say "HOW AM I GOING TO BE A CUNT TODAY" geez dude i swear you not a Liverpool fan i mean you always against everything! you hate Suarez, you hate Rodgers and bet you hate the idea of the Arabs sponsoring Liverpool too hey?? come on man!

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  157. I'm afraid if we sell Suarez then we wont be able to replace him with a top quality player coz we dont have european football to attract them.

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  158. Very silly argument; this table only holds true if the top scorers from other clubs also leave. If only LS is sold or more likely "hounded" out, the other clubs will relish the prospect of beating a rather toothless LFC with their top strikers still around...

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  159. Mr. Point Of View9:15 am, April 30, 2013

    if there offer i think best for lfc to let him go(in term of reputation, financial)...jamie y dont u put up a poll on this issue?

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  160. Yeah I got the email, was going to respond. Thanks :) And because, If you want to hypothetically examine whether Liverpool would have faired just as well without Suarez, wouldn't you have to place liverpool against the competition at full strength? If we didn't have Suarez, Man utd would still have RVP, and so on...

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  161. there is a saying that goes " Lean on statistics as a drunkard on a lamppost only for support not for illumination".

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  162. How about O'Neil, I reckon he would fit the bill, I'll be honest, I never wanted Rodgers, I don't think he has the required experience to deal with top players egos or to manage a huge club. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and to be fair in the Evra case the club and Suarez didn't believe he had done anything wrong and therefore supported him rightly or wrongly can only be decided after the event, lets not open that whole can of worms again.

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  163. Jamie there have been plenty of games where Suarez has been brilliant and done nothing wrong, please point me to the articles you have written about his great play in those articles.

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  164. We wouldn't be relegated without Suarez, but he has done a fabulous job this season. His performances have been heroic and it genuinely saddens me that he wont be credited for that (partly not his fault, in large part it is).
    This table doesn't shed a great deal of light on the situation though, because if we lose Suarez, every other team in the league wont also lose their top scorer.
    The table shows we are as reliant as any team on our star player.

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  165. Mike Aitcheson1:40 am, May 01, 2013

    If a team like Man Utd, who have 3 or 4 top quality strikers all contributing a decent amount of goals is compared to a side who has a talisman who scores the vast majority of the forwards' goals, then this whole argument falls down
    Everyone is not on a level playing field if the second striker scores 7 or 8 a season, rather than 15 or so
    Taking out the one striker has a greater effect on team b surely. They will struggle to score goals. And what if the replacement striker turns out to be a sicknote like RVP in his first few years? Or Owen at Newcastle?

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  166. So I think in summary this table shows us ... nothing? It's a nonsense scenario, what does it "prove"? I can only assume you're taking the mick, it's a ridiculous argument. The only think you might conclude from the table is that Liverpool are worse than average in the impact losing our top striker would have. Only 6 teams figure the same or worse than we do in losing 9 points. Some teams actually gain points under the analysis, which is kudos to them because they obviously rely very little on their top scorer to win games for them. However that's obviously not the case for us. Suarez is relatively more important to LFC than the top striker of other teams, on average. That's the only "stat" amongst this otherwise vaguely amusing hypothetical.


    As for what will happen without Suarez ... well one comment put it best below - what if the player we had instead of him was Andy Carroll? He cost us 35 million quid, a pretty perfect example of what can go so terribly terribly wrong when you dip back into the transfer market and make a mistake. So what if we sell Suarez, go back into the transfer market and pick up a complete flop to replace him? Perhaps you'd like to show us the hypothetical league table if we had Carroll's goals and assists instead of Suarez? You can call it the worst case scenario. Given you've been such a vocal critic of Liverpool's transfer dealings over the years, I'm surprised you now propose Suarez will be so easy to replace.

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  167. But this table is only based on goals scored no?


    Surely there is more to be said in terms of overall contribution to the team, not just assists, but crucial passes in build up play, dragging defenders away to make space, winning free kicks etc.


    I feel the issue is far more complicated, as any statistician would tell you, it's not solely down to one thing to provide proof (itself a dubious term).


    Selling Suarez also puts out a message that we are a mediocre club. There is no way on earth we will be able to attract any players like that now, or with Rodgers as manager.

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  168. absolute rubbish...suarez has scored a high proportion of his goals FIRST...that makes it easier to score more when teams have to come out and play...regardless of what u say about him, he unlocks defenses by scoring and assisting. when he scores to make it 1-0 and builds a platform to make it 2-0, and we go on to get another 2 goals....u CANNOT understate suarez vital contribution in that match...and there are MANY examples of tht

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  169. Jaimie, I thought that was the whole point of this thread: take away Suarez's contribution THEN see where we are at in the league. If he had picked up an injury or been banned prior to the signings of Sturridge & Coutinho, we would have been in a worse off position than we currently are. I'm sure one of Yesil, Morgan or even Pacheco (if he is allowed to return) would have filled the gap, or Suso, perhaps, would have been given more playing time but the fact is there for all to see: Luis Suarez has made a healthy contribution, in terns of goal scored and assists made, to Liverpool's season.

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  170. LOL??? Suarez goes it makes no difference to our team, ... but to make the chart work remove EVERYONE'S top scorer, that's not what the article or argument is about is it Jaimie, Now go back and make a chart with everyone's top scorer on it but not Suarez then see, that shows the difference our team without Suarez makes. Why don't you just get it in your head we dont see him as killing our team if he leaves WE DON'T WANT HIM TOO LEAVE, he's an amazing footballer I don't care about the rest of it most of the ball kickers in the prem seam like complete and utter fuckwits. I dont care what they do in life, I like to watch them play football and Suarez is the best player in the league this season bar non, I doubt even Bale believes he was the best this season he know he won because hes "more likable" than Suarez

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  171. This Suarez bashing is getting Ridiculous Jaimie, we get its your view but your not changing everyone's opinion, every day loads of articles and reply's all about Suarez, you lost mate, People want him to stay your not convincing us otherwise. This is getting no better than a kids tantrum no no no no no NO NO NO no NO your wrong look im right NOOOOO no NOOO I HATE YOU IM RUNNING AWAY

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  172. this site and stat is totally wrong as the reason liverpoo would remain in 7th is if you removed all th eother teams top scorers aswell. so liverpoo would really be 11th

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  173. Still banging the same tired, battered old drum. What is it with this pure hatred of Suarez?. Without Suarez, Rodgers season would have been a whole lot worse, any body who knows anything about football, understands this, and are not fooled by a few wins at the end of the season against deadwood teams(lets be honest here), we still struggled as soon as a team put pressure on us, eg Everton. I just hope he stays, Just the fact that Man utd and fergie are terrified of him, says it all.

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  174. But they won't be losing their top striker, will they?, but you know that really anyway, you just hate Suarez because you are a man utd fan, that fact I have found out.

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  175. LOL, you clearly do not understand football, at all, what a ridiculous thing to say, I wish it was that simple, but surely you don't really believe what you just said?...

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  176. Matthew Priestley6:32 pm, June 20, 2013

    That's the problem with stats, any idiot can use them as "evidence" of their own idiotic opinion.

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  177. Matthew Priestley6:40 pm, June 20, 2013

    Jamie K, what you are doing is clutching at straws. You ignore his assists, key passes, completed passes, how his goals spurred on the other players to score their goals and his effect on the team while playing.


    If he scores 2 and another player scores 1 in a game, you can't say "look, we'd have still won that game 'cos that other player scored". You don't know whether that played would have stilled scored or not without Suarez or his goals. It would have been a different game.


    Even if you look at it as basic as you do, 9 points could be the difference between top 4 or not next season.



    Anyway, have a nice time banning me fella ;-)

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  178. As someone else said you can't justify his value to the club solely by his goals scored. If that was the case supersubs such as David Fairclough would be of as much value as Suarez

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