Using figures taken directly from the club's accounts (i.e. the ONLY accurate figures available), I examine Rafa Benitez's transfer spending during the ownership reign of Tom Hicks and George Gillett.
Earlier in the week, I wrote an article looking at the veracity of Tom Hicks' claim that he and Gillett had spent £300m on players. Unfortunately, many people misinterpreted the figures - instead of deducting Roy Hodgson's transfer spending, people included it as part of Rafa Benitez's transfer spend under Hicks and Gillett.
Obviously, this is wrong! As such, I've compiled a table below containing Benitez's figures only.
IMPORTANT NOTES
1. The transfer spending figures for 2007-2009 are recorded in the club's accounts. Unfortunately, accounts for 2009-10 have not been released yet. Having said that, the purchases/sale price figures for Aquilani, Kyrgiakos, Dossena, Voronin + Alonso are included in the 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section of the 2009 Accounts (See snippets below). For the other transfers that took place in 2009-10, I've used the next best source: the official Liverpool FC website.
2. Hicks and Gillett bought the club on the 6th February 2007. For accounting purposes, LFC's financial year runs from 31 July - 31 July. Thus, any players bought/sold between 31 July 2006 and 6 February 2007 should not be included in this analysis. For spending calculations, it is important to note that H+G were in charge at Liverpool for just over 3.5 years, *not* 4 years.
3. Several players were sold between 31 July 2006 and 6 February 2007, and two were purchased.
4. Sales between 31 July 2006 + 6 February 2007
* Barragan, Traore, Mellor, Kromkamp, Kirkland (Combined 4.5m)
* Darren Potter £525k
* Stephen Warnock £1.5m
Total: £6.5m
5. Purchases between 31 July 2006 + 6 February 2007
* Dirk Kuyt - 10m
* Alvaro Arbeloa - 2.5m
Total: £12.5m
Purchases and sales are accounted for in the table below.
Here are the figures I compiled from the 2009 Accounts' 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section, and LFC.tv for transfers conducted from 31 July 2009 until Benitez left the club in June 2010:
6. Transfers In
* Albert Aquilani + Sotiris Kyrgiakos - £20.4m
* Jonjo Shelvey - £1.7m
* Daniel Ayala - £160k
7. Transfers Out
* Xabi Alonso, Andrea Dossena + Andrei Voronin - £29.7m
These transfers are accounted for in the table below.
RAFA BENITEZ TRANSFER SPENDING UNDER HICKS + GILLETT
Proof from the club's accounts:
2006-7
2007-8
2008-9
I'm not making any judgement on the figures; I'm merely providing the information.
Any analysis of LFC transfer spending that ignores figures taken from the club's own accounts is inherently inaccurate. How can figures based on estimation, inference and/or 'educated' guesswork supercede the club's own published accounts? The answer is, they can't.
Jaimie Kanwar
Earlier in the week, I wrote an article looking at the veracity of Tom Hicks' claim that he and Gillett had spent £300m on players. Unfortunately, many people misinterpreted the figures - instead of deducting Roy Hodgson's transfer spending, people included it as part of Rafa Benitez's transfer spend under Hicks and Gillett.
Obviously, this is wrong! As such, I've compiled a table below containing Benitez's figures only.
IMPORTANT NOTES
1. The transfer spending figures for 2007-2009 are recorded in the club's accounts. Unfortunately, accounts for 2009-10 have not been released yet. Having said that, the purchases/sale price figures for Aquilani, Kyrgiakos, Dossena, Voronin + Alonso are included in the 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section of the 2009 Accounts (See snippets below). For the other transfers that took place in 2009-10, I've used the next best source: the official Liverpool FC website.
2. Hicks and Gillett bought the club on the 6th February 2007. For accounting purposes, LFC's financial year runs from 31 July - 31 July. Thus, any players bought/sold between 31 July 2006 and 6 February 2007 should not be included in this analysis. For spending calculations, it is important to note that H+G were in charge at Liverpool for just over 3.5 years, *not* 4 years.
3. Several players were sold between 31 July 2006 and 6 February 2007, and two were purchased.
4. Sales between 31 July 2006 + 6 February 2007
* Barragan, Traore, Mellor, Kromkamp, Kirkland (Combined 4.5m)
* Darren Potter £525k
* Stephen Warnock £1.5m
Total: £6.5m
5. Purchases between 31 July 2006 + 6 February 2007
* Dirk Kuyt - 10m
* Alvaro Arbeloa - 2.5m
Total: £12.5m
Purchases and sales are accounted for in the table below.
Here are the figures I compiled from the 2009 Accounts' 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section, and LFC.tv for transfers conducted from 31 July 2009 until Benitez left the club in June 2010:
6. Transfers In
* Albert Aquilani + Sotiris Kyrgiakos - £20.4m
* Jonjo Shelvey - £1.7m
* Daniel Ayala - £160k
7. Transfers Out
* Xabi Alonso, Andrea Dossena + Andrei Voronin - £29.7m
These transfers are accounted for in the table below.
RAFA BENITEZ TRANSFER SPENDING UNDER HICKS + GILLETT
Proof from the club's accounts:
2006-7
2007-8
2008-9
I'm not making any judgement on the figures; I'm merely providing the information.
Any analysis of LFC transfer spending that ignores figures taken from the club's own accounts is inherently inaccurate. How can figures based on estimation, inference and/or 'educated' guesswork supercede the club's own published accounts? The answer is, they can't.
Jaimie Kanwar
No wonder were in the shape we are. We cannot compete with figures like this.
ReplyDeletewe got kuyt b4 yanks took over
ReplyDeleteJaime just to be clear are you saying that during the whole of the G&H era net spend was only £10m or effectively we only bought from the money recouped from sales?
ReplyDeleteJaime just to be clear are you saying that during the whole of the G&H era net spend was only £10m or effectively we only bought from the money recouped from sales?
ReplyDeleteJaime just to be clear are you saying that during the whole of the G&H era net spend was only £10m or effectively we only bought from the money recouped from sales?
ReplyDeleteThe only time you don't blame Rafa for something is when your own "facts" would make a fool of you for doing so. How about joining 90% of other interested followers of LFC who recognised that a white liquid in a bottle is probably milk. Rafa was hamstrung by the size of the transfer budget, the manner in which it was messed around by managers and owners so he could not time purchases well, and the fact that he made a profit in the last two seasons. 90% of his purchasers intended for temproary. transitionla team buididng, were sold for a profit. He earned much of the money by successive succesful performances in the CL. His sacking is not only a travesty of justice it is also a financial torpedo into the bowels of the club. This year will be the least profitable in operating terms in the last 6 because Rafa is not here to earn the money.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting -well done thanks for the hard work!!
ReplyDeleteWell said.
ReplyDeleteJamie..are you obsessed with Benitez????
ReplyDeleteWow ..... So Benitez did an even better job than most of us thought..... In 6 years he brought in loads of youth players, made a few players full internationals , got gerrard scoring the most goals he has ever done, same with Torres(shame about the injuries), and had a team that had a purchase price of over 100million(probably worth more with a fit Torres), also these figures don't take into account of the bennyonion and Maschman sales (£25 mill) and in that time he got us a Euro and FA cup plus another Euro final plus a 2nd place finish plus extra prize money totaling over £100 million plus a team rated #1 in the world .... Geez .... No wonder we sacked him .... He was too good for us!!! *DONT_KNOW*
ReplyDeletenice one jamie the truth at last, now for the expenditure break down on the virtual new stadium in stanley park
ReplyDeleteWow ..... So Benitez did an even better job than most of us thought..... In 6 years he brought in loads of youth players, made a few players full internationals , got gerrard scoring the most goals he has ever done, same with Torres(shame about the injuries), and had a team that had a purchase price of over 100million(probably worth more with a fit Torres), also these figures don't take into account of the bennyonion and Maschman sales (£25 mill) and in that time he got us a Euro and FA cup plus another Euro final plus a 2nd place finish plus extra prize money totaling over £100 million plus a team rated #1 in the world .... Geez .... No wonder we sacked him .... He was too good for us!!! *DONT_KNOW*
ReplyDeleteWe;; then that lays bare the HUGE spending by rafa... fricking measly 25 m in 6 years... it incredible that we acyually finished in top 4 at all....
ReplyDeleteThis is an eye opener!!! You should send this to the papers Jamie. I don't hold much hope of the tabloids publishing facts, but maybe just maybe the serious papers might do it.
ReplyDeleteWow ..... So Benitez did an even better job than most of us thought..... In 6 years he brought in loads of youth players, made a few players full internationals , got gerrard scoring the most goals he has ever done, same with Torres(shame about the injuries), and had a team that had a purchase price of over 100million(probably worth more with a fit Torres), also these figures don't take into account of the bennyonion and Maschman sales (£25 mill) and in that time he got us a Euro and FA cup plus another Euro final plus a 2nd place finish plus extra prize money totaling over £100 million plus a team rated #1 in the world .... Geez .... No wonder we sacked him .... He was too good for us!!! *DONT_KNOW*
ReplyDeleteJamie, thanks for the interesting figures. I noticed a couple of mistakes or typos:
ReplyDelete1. Average net spend p.a. in H&G years for Rafa was £6.1 million (not £7 million)
2. Total spend during Rafa's reign (i.e. over 6 seasons) was £63 million (i.e. an average of £10.5 million p.a.)
Just a couple of minor slips that do not detract from the very valuable investigation work.
I must admit that I was shocked to see how little Rafa was able to spend under H&G and earlier - it's a miracle that Liverpool were playing as well as they did and it only enhances my (admittedly already immense) admiration for Rafa.
For clarification, in point 2 above I was referring to a total NET spend of £63 million during the Rafa years.
ReplyDelete<span>I'm not making any judgement on the figures; I'm merely providing the information. <span>
ReplyDeleteSays it all really Jamie does it not?</span></span>
Wheres all the Sock accounts or your usual diatribe you be the bigger man and admit that he worked wonders with a limited sell to buy transfer budget.Imagine if he had backing from a good owner scary...isnt it?
How then can Rafa be blamed for anything whatsoever? The truth speaks for itself.
ReplyDeleteWell done Jaimie, I knew you were a closet fan of Rafa.
ReplyDeleteIs this your full time job?
ReplyDeleteImpressive work. Well done. I'm greatfull for the time and effort you put into these articles. They are always well thought out and use reliable sources unlike so many other websites. Keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteNo matter wat the net spend is, he still wasted alot of money. Just because you make money back selling players it doesnt make it ok.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Imagine what he could have achieved with the money that Man Utd or Chelsea have spent.
ReplyDeleteTop class manager, very badly treated.
Can we have him back please?
;)
Well weren't we all thinking along them lines anyway? Rafa said so on many ocassions, and yet the anti-Rafa brigade couldn't hear it or chose not to....
ReplyDeleteWould we really be 19th in the league if he had stayed????
Hope Rafa wins the CL with Inter...he deserves a break after 3 years of trying to reason with H&G...
In Rafa I Trusted...In Roy I don't...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this looks like to me rafa had to shop at aldi and not waitrose,have you ever looked at the prize money rafa brought to liverpool and how many of his buys are still at the club and how much of a loss or profit he made on the players he bought.in the last 3 years i would say spurs villa and sunderland have spant more on players in that time and thats not even including man city.the time for us to push on and buy more quality players where last seasons when we finished so close this never happened and in january when the alarm bells where ringing we couldnt even buy the like of kenwyn jones.roy hogdson has bought 20 millons worth of dross in the summer . enough said
ReplyDeleteRaul is far from Dross my friend.
ReplyDeleteBIGJOHN.........we really can do WITHOUT fans like you, go and support fulham and, take Woy with you!
ReplyDeleteAgree 200%
ReplyDeleteRooney alone costed ManUtd more money than all the net money H&G spent in 3.5 years.
ReplyDeleteYes, and I've stated that in the article (section 5)
ReplyDeleteThe net spend for the whole H+G era is less than 10m. The figurea above are only for Rafa Benitez. getting hung up on net spend is ridiculous though; Benitez's net spend during H+G era may be 7m, but that doesn't mean he only had 7m a year to spend. That kind of thought process is supremely unintelligent. Benitez spent an average of 53m a year under H+G - that is real money spent Just because money was recouped doesn't mean that 53m doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteAnd the idea that players were only bought from money recouped is nonsense too. Who did LFC sell to buy Mascherano? Keane? Johnson? Dossena etc....?
No. I am obsessed with presenting accurate financial info about LFC. if you don't like that, don't come here. And if any further pointless posts like yours will be deleted. If you have something to add to the debate then do so; don't clog the thread with pointless comments.
ReplyDeleteit is milk rafa
ReplyDeleteWell done Jaimie....
y w n w a
Hey Voland - You're right, I forgot to update the figure in the net spend column. I've done that now. Good spot :)
ReplyDeleteRe average net spend per year under H+G:
H+G were owners for just over 3.5 years, the figures should be divided by 3.5 not 4.
Total net spend = 24.5
Average net spend = 24.5 divided by 3.5 years = 7m
Net spending is crucial. In order to improve your squad, you have to first weaken it. Unlike Chelsea who buy great players, THEN work out who to sell if they need to.
ReplyDeleteNo - my posting this makes no difference to my personal feelings on the issue. Benitez wasted shedloads of money, and that is indisputable. His net spend under H+G may only be 7m but that doesn't change the fact that he bought badly, and wasted mony on the wrong players. Examples: Keane, Aquilani, Dossena, Johnson, Riera, Morientes, Pennant, Lucas etc. Tens of millions spent on the wrong players. Money recouped does not change the fact that when Benitez had the money in his hand, he spent it on the wrong players, which led to a poor quality squad. I'm not going to get into the net spend debate; I've made my feelings clear on it a million times. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same.
ReplyDeleteAll I'm interested in is presenting accurate figures about LFC. If I was so anti-Benitez, why would I post figures that (to many people_ put him in a very positive light? Why would I wasted my time? If I was so against him, I wouldn't post stuff like this, would I? This proves that I am fair (and I've posted many things in the past that put Benitez in a similarly good light).
Pab - and this goes for everyone else: Any further pointless posts like this will deleted. Any persistently pointless posts like this will lead to the poster being banned.
ReplyDeleteExactly, BigJohn. Focusing on net spend = acceptance of failure and losing money. The net spend argument is idiotic, and it just goes to show the mass delusion of fans. The thing is, if Benitez's net spend was MASSIVE, then these same fans would be saying net spend is not a valid way to judge transfers.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just look at the way Benitez's supporters only focus on the TOTAL net spend. In 2007-8, RB's net spend was 30m - using the net spend brigade's logic, he must have ben a crap manager that year! 30m net spend; one of the highest (if not the highest) for that year.
ReplyDeleteBut no, let's just ignore that year and focus on the total. Let's also ignore the following:
* Gross spend (i.e. real money actually spent at any given time);
* Money lost on regular transfer mistakes
* Loss of utility to the side as it's repeatedly deprived of players who could make a difference.
None of that matters. As long as some money was made back on a player, that's all that matters (eben if the club ends up making a huge loss).
So in 6 years he won the champions league and the FA Cup. He got rid of Sami and replaced him with Zorba, got rid of Xabi and replaced him with Aquilani. Just a couple of the poor decisions he made. For every Torres there will be an Aquilani and a Lucas. Rafa has gone and taken over Inter who have just won massively, what is he doing with them?
ReplyDeleteI don't miss him, I don't think Roy will be the one to take us forward but he has brought some decency back - trust in what we have now and not what we thought we had!
Love the way people are allowed to express themselves on here! :)
ReplyDeletewith out the figures, it was obvious that rafa was one of the best managers in the world. top world class teams dont chase a manager if he is crap at his job. we should bring him back, with a little bit more cash than he got from H&G we would win everything. I dont mind roy having till crimbo, it hasnt been the easiest situation to manage, but now things are a lot more stable, i am willing to let him show what he is made of.
ReplyDeleteThe responses to this thread are exactly what I expected: Net spend! net spend! Let's ignore everything else because net spend is all that matters. Let's take a look at a prime example of the silly thought process behind the net spend argument.
ReplyDelete2009-10
Gross spend: 22.6
Recouped: 31.2
Net spend: -8.1m
Net spend cult - example thought process:
"Liverpool spent no money on transfers in 2009-10! 22.6m gross? Forget it! the -8.1m net spend is all that matters. The 22.6m was not real money; it did not pass from LFC'[s bank account to other clubs; that money didn't even exist! Albert Aquilani was free! How could he cost any money considering we have a negative net spend? Rafa Benitez spent minus 8.1m in his final season! What an amazing achievement!"
*shoots self*
A lads i hold my hands up i slaged of rafa but after reading jamies excellent piece of detective work and looking at the accounts i appoligise to rafa i really didnt no he only spent that much in 6yrs i have done the man an injustice and the am truly sorry now i no the truth i truely hope rafa comes back in two years time and be allowed to run the club as he wants to. an embaraced red albey
ReplyDeleteJamie
ReplyDeleteThat, saldy,is slightly retarded. If, when we buy a play of Torres's class and are forced to sell Bellamy to fund the deal (and therefore lose Bellamy in the process - who needs replacing)
Instead, if we keep our current players and buy better ones, with our existing players becoming reserves, then with that kind of luxury we improve. Otherwise, we are continually churning players trying to get marginal improvements.
I hope that you also understand that if you are working in the markets of £6-10m players that the vast majority of clubs work in, then the market works more efficeinty and it is harder to find a bargain. Consequently, you need to 'churn' players, as only by a high turn of players (recouping money as you go) are you likely to unearth a diamond.
Finally, let us put this gross spend figures to bed, as nothing is more irritating.
Let us imagine you buy a house for 100k. You then sell that (for 150k) to buy a house for 175k. Its in a better area and that then goes up quickly to 250k. You sell that and again trade up for a £275k.
Under your reasoning you need to calculate the amount you paid for that house as £550k. Who would do that/. That is plainly stupid. You paid £275k for that house and your mortgage is £150k (your actual cost) for a £275 house, of which you should be proud.
I dont think Rafa was a genius in the transfer market - he made mistakes - its hard. But please dont ignore net spend. Gross spend is nonsensical and misleading.
Well the Benni-Boilers finally got their way.Well done guys and thanks for the 'support'
ReplyDelete(Why would a team that just won the CL want a suspect manager FFS ?)
Rafa's a first class manager and a decent fella that only ever wanted what was best for his team,club and the fans.To be honest I was sad to see both Houllier and Rafa go.
H+G got what they deserved.Nothing.
Regarding the current plight and Hodgson farce (I should be behind him I know, but I just don't rate him and like ALL new signings the onus is on the 'employee' to perform)
To underline the serious depths to which we have plummetted.We went UP the league a place today WITHOUT KICKING A BALL.Give the lads the last 17 games off and we might win the league :)
IMHO we need a younger man who is closer to playing age and will connect better with the team whilst having the years ahead to become a legend.
Also we need to start putting teams under the cosh from the starting whistle.Our defence needs an overhaul which isn't going to happen anytime soon so attack is our ONLY form of defence.Throw the kitchen sink at 'em and if that doesn't work sling the cooker.ONLY scoring is going to dig us out of this hole.
I'd be looking at getting Frank in.He'll get us playing decent, flowing,attacking football again plus with his experience both on and off the field he'll have more 'leverage' (sorry about the bad language) in the transfer market for the 2 or 3 world class players we need to get back to where we were in 2008/9 season.
I really don't like to berate Liverpool players or managers and I do have a lot of respect for RH as a person and a manager.He worked miracles at Fulham but we are not Fulham... we are LFC and we need to get this 'stink of defeat' off of us and halt the list of enthusiastic teams rubbing their hands together in front of the 'This Is Anfield' sign.
To quote (bizarrely, I might add from an ex Man Ure manager, racist and H.Samuel's model )
'When you're in a battle...YOU F@!*ING BATTLE'
YNWA
Aaron - thanks for your comments:
ReplyDeleteIf, when we buy a play of Torres's class and are forced to sell Bellamy to fund the deal (and therefore lose Bellamy in the process - who needs replacing)
Forced to sell Bellamy? Proof please.
It's stuff like this that needs to stop - it's just made up. There's no evidence to support it.
Let us imagine you buy a house for 100k. You then sell that (for 150k) to buy a house for 175k. Its in a better area and that then goes up quickly to 250k. You sell that and again trade up for a £275k.
Under your reasoning you need to calculate the amount you paid for that house as £550k. Who would do that/. That is plainly stupid. You paid £275k for that house and your mortgage is £150k (your actual cost) for a £275 house, of which you should be proud.
No, this whole thought process is 'plainly stupid'. You ignore the time issue: you don't make the money back straight away; for a period of time, the money you paid is tied up in the house. if the house is fit to live in then that's fine;if you disccover it has subsidence and structural problems (or whatever else) then your utility decreases.
Also, none of this changes the fact that at a specific point in time, you paid out a specific amount of money.
Anyway, I'm not getting into this ridiculous circular argument *again*. I'm going to post an article soon about what I term the 'net spend fallacy', and I will include lots of examples of exactly why the net spend argument is the most baseless, cretinous football argument ever constructed.
Ah we're at the bottom of the table employing defensive hoofball but at least your happy because of the return of "decency" to LFC.
ReplyDeleteYours was the stupidest statement I've read in a long time.
Hi Jamie
ReplyDeleteI do understand where your coming from with your view point that Rafa still had the money to spend even if he had to sell players, but I also believe every manager has to balance the books. So a certain amount wheeling & dealing is required. Maybe you can't say he sold one player specifically to buy another but obviously players were sold to buy others or his net spend would be so much higher. My other point would be that as much as I agree with you statement about buying bad buys such as Aqua, Johnson etc! He has also brought players who are the very top in their position namely Mash, Alonso, Reina & Torres. I would also argue that Rafa has brought in every penny that he has spent with his success in the Champions League every year bar one. I believe this is worth great recognition alone. Rafa has many faults ( too many too name), but for every fault you can name most fans can name things he has done right for/by the club.
Hi Jamie
ReplyDeleteI do understand where your coming from with your view point that Rafa still had the money to spend even if he had to sell players, but I also believe every manager has to balance the books. So a certain amount wheeling & dealing is required. Maybe you can't say he sold one player specifically to buy another but obviously players were sold to buy others or his net spend would be so much higher. My other point would be that as much as I agree with you statement about buying bad buys such as Aqua, Johnson etc! He has also brought players who are the very top in their position namely Mash, Alonso, Reina & Torres. I would also argue that Rafa has brought in every penny that he has spent with his success in the Champions League every year bar one. I believe this is worth great recognition alone. Rafa has many faults ( too many too name), but for every fault you can name most fans can name things he has done right for/by the club.
Yeah but if Rafa never had to buy to sell then we would have still had Crouch and Bellamy, and you could argue that Masc would never have gone and we wouldn't be in the shit we are at the moment.
ReplyDeleteNo - he spent money and the team improved. Am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteJamie I do understand your argument that Rafa has had that money to spend and yes he did buy some crap, but what about the good players he bought that never got sold on?
ReplyDeleteYou forget that every manager makes mistakes, but with Rafa as he wasn't given a larger net spend then he was forced to sell players that would have added strength to the team.
This site is not a democracy; I run this site the way I want to, and that means:
ReplyDelete* Encouraging intelligent debate; discouraging sniping idiots.
* Deleting any post that contains derogatory comments/insults about me, the site, other posters, members of LFC playing staff/management etc
I want people to be able to read the comment threads and follow an interesting discussion; I don't want them to have to wade through endless crap just to find the debate.
There are dozens of LFC forums out there where playground stuff can and will be indulged; this site is for LFC fans who *think*; who like to be challenged; who are capable of constructing arguments and counter arguments.
People who turn up here and snipe will continue to be banned, and I make no apology for that.
Since this site started, almost 40,000 comments have been posted. Many of them disagree with me, but they stay on the site. Why? Because the majority of commentors debate in a civilised manner. it's simple: debate properly and your comment stays up. Descend into name-calling and your comment will go.
I want this site to be a historical record of interesting LFC debates; that's the whole point. I am not going to let idiots spoil that. And if that means I have to institute a system where commentors are forced to debate properly, then so be it.
This is the way it is. If anyone doesn't like it, they don't have to come to this site.
A prime example of the kind of thought-process that is so damaging. You're right - Benitez is a saint! He never did anything wrong; he's a godlike figure and we should all worship at his altar.
ReplyDeleteRafa can be blamed for buying Aquilani for £20 million when Real Madrid where going to give us cash as well as Schneider as well as cash for Alonso. Schneider went on to have a blinding year at Inter, while Aquilani sat on the bench while we struggled.
ReplyDeleteJust because he bought a few good players does not negate the fact he wasted lots of money on bad players. In any event, why is having good players who haven't been sold on relevant? This is not unique to Benitez; EVERY club is in this situation; every club has good players who don't get sold on for a while. That's football.
ReplyDeleteSorry forgot to add:
ReplyDeleteIf it's in a bin-bag and it stinks...IT'S RUBBISH. :-P
Never said it does, what I am saying is that because he was not given a larger net spend the squad was weaker as a resultand contributed to our league position last year.
ReplyDeleteIf you read my above comment then you will see another point I made about Rafa's failings, but as you have agreed Rafa was infact working on a shoe string budget.
Your Net spend totals of £53 million does that include wages, bonuses etc.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that Inter went for Rafa is because Rafa watched his own back when he chose teams last year.#
ReplyDeleteIf Rafa would have chosen his strongest squad squad always for the prem, then we would have beaten the likes of Stoke, Reading etc. and would have had a better run at the league, but not necesarrliy winning it. We wouldn't have done near as good in the CL but what looks better, beating Barca, Inter and Real or beating Reading, Stoke and finishing 2nd in the league?
So you would have gone without Masch, Torres etc.
ReplyDeleteNo, because they are accounted for separately by the club. Wages and bonuses is a whole other article.
ReplyDeleteWhat time issue? The money you paid is tied up in the house? Hmm - I assume you're tring to do some kind of Net Present Value adjustment. But that isnt comparable with a one off purchase where the funds are tied up fr numerous years. In which case, talk me through how that is different if you just spent £30m on one player. Maybe I'm over anticipating your intelligence. If you are simply saying n=you dont get paid up front for all your deals, then clearly that happens on both inputs and outputs. Why dont you explain using my example - do you hinestly think the figure paid for ths house should be £550k? - if so, I worry.
ReplyDeleteRafa had his faults theres no doubt in that & one of those faults was he could have treated players better. But im sure everyone on this site will agree that in his peak he had LFC playing the type of football we crave and appreciate will Roy make us play to a high standard? Answer NO he hasnt won any majour honours yes he is a nice man but hes not the type to lead LFC back to that standard we crave. YNWA.
ReplyDeleteSorry but it doesn't matter how you paint it, Rafa wasted an awful lot of money and certainly didn't spend it well in the last two or three years, Babbel was bought as a forward and has been wasted as a winger shooting his confidencen to pieces. Kuyt is now a winger! Johnson, amazing to see a defender cost so much but doesn't like getting dirty. Forcing Allonso out the club and nearly buying that waste of space at city but the one I'd have sacked him for alone was Aquilani. Probably the worst player i have ever seen in a red shirt!
ReplyDeleteBut net spend is important, as if you keep re-couping and spending the same 53M again and again, the outlay for the club is going to be less.
ReplyDeleteIt's the same money in a cycle. Net spend is what is added.
But net spend is important, as if you keep re-couping and spending the same 53M again and again, the outlay for the club is going to be less.
ReplyDeleteIt's the same money in a cycle. Net spend is what is added.
Your point is valid but why can you not see net spend is also very very important?
ReplyDeleteYes gross spend is important in the sense of what you acquire with it, but what does is matter today that Rafa spent 5.3 million on Sissoko? What matters more is that he sold him for 11 million. He could then use 11 million in player purchases. To me that is a very valid argument for net spend. If he was constantly losing value on players AND his gross spend was high, then I'd say he's performed badly in the transfer market, and it would obviously be indicative in his NET spend.
Every player is a slowly depreciating asset (in terms of age) but can appreciate or depreciate in value due to form and other aspects. If you can buy a player and sell him at a profit, then the player has performed better than he was orignially worth, and hence is surely deemed a succesful purchase? If you want to argue gross spend then I believe you have to take net spend into consideration as well. For example:
Momo Sissoko: Purchased 5.3mill Sold 11mill Profit 5.7mill
Robbie Keane: Purchased 19mill Sold 12 mill Loss: 7mill
Momo was about as succesful a purchase as Robbie was an unsuccessful one if you take age (for both) into consideration as well.
It is almost impossible to judge a manager's financial performance because there as so many factors to take into consideration, but imo a good way to to do this is to look at the value of the squad when he took over and the salaries being paid, and the value of the squad when he left and their salaries. The higher their salaires the better the team is performing, because of the commercial gain from success. Extraordinary earnings, like Champions League, FA cup etc, should also be taken into consideration.
In my opinion, a football club is a business. In general, success on the pitch = higher earnings. The two best ways to judge a manger = trophies and earnings. So I believe the best way to judge Rafa is by having a look at the club's gross earnings before he arrived and watch the trend over the years he was at the club, and of course look at the club's gross earnings now he has left.
Getting back to transfers, a good way to judge Rafa's transfer activity is to list all the players he purchased, and show price purchased and price sold for each player. In general I believe a profit indicates a succeful purchase and a loss indicates a failed purchase, and of course the size of the profit or loss indicates how much of a success or failure it is. Jaimie could you do this for us? :)
Jamie, Are you also aware Benitez tried to buy vidic, Simao, Alves amongst others and the board acted slowly or didnt have the money to close the deal, hence the buying of the likes Pennant, Reira (speculated players not proven talents). While I ll admit Benitez wasted money, I do not believe this wastage is unique to benitez, (SAF bought Carrick, Hargraves, Anderson, and 14 Keepers after the danish and Before Van Dar SAR) The difference is Benitez mistakes are more magnified simply because we do not have the money.. Others clubs do makes mistakes but have the pocket to correct the mistakes so we brand them as some sort of genius. I believe What Benitez spent and winning the FA cup, CL and qualifying for CL 5 out of 6 year is value for money. He did make a lot of mistakes but this is not unique. (Chelsea bought Sheva for £30M and not one is really talking about it)
ReplyDeleteWhenever you get a second Jamie... How much did the house cost?????
ReplyDeleteBottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteBottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteWhat a pointless article, who gives a crap, its time to move on and stop thinking in the past.
ReplyDeleteBottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteBottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteRafa didn't get rid of Sami. He would've given Sami a one year contract but Sami wanted a longer deal.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you mean by decency but my idea of decency does not involve not sticking up for your players cf. slur Alex and cheating Torres, nor saying that he didn't expect a win at Birmingham nor saying that we'll think about selling Torres to ManUre if they make a bid. The league table doesn't lie. Roy might be nice old fellow but with a 35 year cv packed with mediocrity is clearly not good enough for LFC. We should always be aiming for the top.
As for Rafa, we had won the UCL and the FA Cup and were headed for the second UCL final in three years. Not a bad start to his Anfield tenure. Then came Laurel and Hardy and we have won nothing since. Coincidence? I think not.
I think you are too demanding jamie. Rafa is not perfect, he is stubborn and biased, but all the best managers are to my knowledge. When he took over we had quite a bad team and I think that is safe to say. He bought many players and naturally many failed but I think overall he did well with his purchases.
ReplyDeleteIf we make a list we see xabi alonso, garcia, benayoun, torres, mascherano, agger, reina. These were the great buys he made. Then there were the decent buys relative to the money he spent: arbeloa, kuyt, crouch, bellamy, skrtel, our brazilian left back whose name I've forgotten, sissoko (not great towards the end but had some genius games for us before his injury),
Yes, he made some bad buys, but most of these were couple million pound players where he had to fill gaps without much money. There were just two major flops: babel and keane (but who saw keane turning out to be as rubbish as he was with all those premiership goals under his belt?)
I think he compares favourably to almost any premiership manager in terms of good vers bad players relative to money spent. He did not have the luxury of chelsea or man utd being able to make a few 15 million pound purchases every summer.
He turned around our youth team, he took us to 2 CL finals, to 86points, fa cup. He was an excellent tactician and he riled up red nose.
All in all, it is arguable with the net spend that you show here, that very few managers indeed could have done better. Clearly roy hasn't taken the world by storm and now that we are contemplating yet another new manager it's getting pretty difficult to think of one who will bring us anything near the success rafa brought us.
Bottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteBottom line: R n' B had six years to improve the squad. Nearly all te players at Liverpool are from rafa's time. Why, is our squad so weak? You have proved he has spent money; just spent badly. Is the fault of the scouting network? Doesn't matter, all comes under manager's remit. No other top manager has bought as much dross as Rafa. If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now. I agree, Roy is not the man to build a new legacy but he should have had better tools(and reinforcements) than he has now. Now is the time to consistently play all the decent youth we have.
ReplyDeleteSo lets have a recap...
ReplyDeleteGROSS the Total amount payed out to bring each and every player in the Rafa tenure to LFC was 289mil...
Let me remind everyone that NESV payed 300mil for LFC...
I think this can be simplified by this example.
ReplyDeleteA man climbs a mountain one kilometre high and he gets a rope initially 100metres long but every 100metres he gets a new rope lengthened by 10 metres.
By the time he gets to the mountain top his rope will be 190metres long not 1 kilometre long with the moral being when he exchanges one rope he is reward with a longer one meaning he has had to earn that new rope from the work he has already done.
He didnt begin with nothing but has had to swap one rope for another rather than tie all the ropes together to have one long rope that will 1090 metres at the top. He had to create a currency of an additional 100metre climb to get an additional bonus of 10 metres.
The issue here maybe the quality of the rope he gets rather than the impression of being lavished with resources.
If you get money to buy groceries at LIDL you are unlikely to go shopping at Harrods but if you sell your LIDL shopping for more than you paid you may end up shopping at Waitrose and eventually get to shop at Harrods if you manage your cashflow well. The watchword here being CASHFLOW generated by swapping one asset for another at incrementally higher prices.
Jamie you happily state that Rafa still spent this amount or that and its not all about Net spend. But you have to take in to consideration the teams that Liverpool managers have taken over, including Rafa and also Houllier... In order to catch the likes of United and Chelsea we would have to spend far more than them year on year even to catch up with the quality they have had throughout their squads. To suggest you can just say well Rafa spent the same as other teams or more is not the full piucture. We have been falling behind for over a decade. If we are 5 players behind Utd in terms of quality and we spend the same as them in the next 5 years we are still gonna be 5 players behind them right?
ReplyDeleteWhat has typically happened is Liverpool have tried to sign 3 players of average quality because they were lacking depth in their squad. The likes of Utd and Chelsea would already have the depth and would spend their budget on single quality players. Don't forget we were also interested in many of the quality players like Ronaldo and Vidic but we end up losing out because we haven't been able to compete. If you have a good squad you can risk money on a single young player like Ronaldo. If you don't have the quality you need players for now and you can't risk your budget on young players.<span></span>
You have to recognise whatever budget he had he had to spread it thinly to just to get an average squad, in terms of quality and numbers. When Utd had the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Nevilles, Schmeichel, Beckham, Cantona, Keane etc... we had only a few good players. To not recognise that and just say well our manager spent 'x' is simply not logical.
Like I said and will keep saying... to compete now we would either have to be very lucky (ie find cheap players who turn out to be world class) or outspend the competition year on year even to catch up... surely that makes sense? Rafa spent this and Rafa spent that is not the full picture... whatever anyone thinks of the guy....
So lets have a recap...
ReplyDeleteGROSS the Total amount payed out to bring each and every player in the Rafa tenure to LFC was 289mil...
Let me remind everyone that NESV payed 300mil for LFC...
FFS, go look up the word NET. How can benitez be given a bigger NET?
ReplyDeleteI hope for your sake you can give me a proper answer.
I will be waiting...
Well okay then if Rafa was given more money to spend and not have to sell to buy then!
ReplyDeleteJamie what i dont understand is are you for Benitez or against him? Secondly if you ignore your net spend you are a fool all businesses run on this. Rafa Benitez had a great first team until he was forced to sell players eg Alonso to fund the purchase other players this creates animosity within the dressing room which to be fair Benitez dealt with. The problem at Liverpool is, the first team 2 seasons ago was able to compete with the top 4 we showed that but the sqaud depth was our down fall. Benitez would sell a player for say 4m but only get 2.5 back to replace him this had a massive impact on the qaulity and depth of the squad. So when we were hit by one of the worst injury lists any prems top 4 sides endured in the past few years we simply didnt have anybody to step up. This was down to lack of funds. Rafa put alot of money into youth as Arsenal did as Wenger knows he doesnt have the millions of MU Chelski he hopes every year he will get 1 first team player or 2 sqaud players out of it if not small out lay originally chances are make a profit on them which will go back into the coffers. Am sorry but Rafa with money and i mean a net spend every year of at leasy 40 million for 3 years and we would have seen a different Liverpool FC 'SQUAD' now.
ReplyDeleteSorry about the 50million posts!
ReplyDeleteBilly
ReplyDeleteHow much more should Rafa have been given to spend then?
Another 289mil?
<span><span>RAFA BENITEZ is lining up a £10million summer move for Lyon ace Florent Malouda.</span></span>
ReplyDelete<span><span></span></span>
Vidic almost chose Liverpool ahead of Man Utd | Premiership News ..
<span>Liverpool's bid to sign Sevilla full-back Daniel Alves has stalled, according to the Spanish club. </span>
<span>The Reds have formally tabled two bids for the 23-year-old but have yet to meet the asking price of around £12m. </span>
<span><span>Liverpool will intensify their efforts to sign David Silva, the Valencia playmaker, with Xabi Alonso expected to complete a £32 million move ...</span></span>
Rafa tried to sign these players but no money or backing from the board, he was forced to go for cheap versions of the talents listed, unfortunately when you buy speculative instead blue clip, you are more than likely to get it wrong.
Jamie, the difficulty with your argument is unless you have real capital to infuse, you are forced to just churn, and it is hit and miss. Benitez made mistakes, but he was forced to take chances that Jose and Ferguson did not - in the B market. Aquilinin was a mistake, to be sure, but I guarantee that if he didn't find an asset to spend the $ he recovered from Alonso, it would have been gone to fund debt. And there wasn't much time. While we were chancing on Keane, United was spending 10 Million more on Berbatov. Come to think about it, that didn't work out much better. But the ability to splash resources at the top end, and to have a prime squad that you are just able to tinker with, is just a different place in the market. You can't turn a condo into a mansion unless you have the cash to trade up. Benitez, without a big net spend, by trading up bit by bit, and with mistakes along the way, got to where he had a far better and more valuable team.
ReplyDeletei couldnt agree more,dave your a clown,i wonder if hodgson was spanish and he stood up to fergie youd say the same thing
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying, that under H&G, Rafa effectively became an accountant - trying to balance his books?
ReplyDeleteVilla definitely have, their net spend under O'Neill (who I want nowhere near Anfield on a personal level) is virtually identical to Rafa's whole tenure at Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteSo, for example, if a team finished 7th let's say fulham from 2008. They get a new manager who in the 6 years after gets to 2 ECL finals (wins 1), wins an fa cup and comes 4 points of the league title. He also net spends 7mil or whatever. Do you think the fulham fans will slag him off for good buys here bad buys there, or would they appreciate a miraculous job? I actually think 99% of manager and chairmen would dream of this sort of return. Imagine what would have been said if it was Moye who'd done this at everton or any other English manager for that matter.
ReplyDeleteI have not posted a comment on a website forum etc... for ages. But just a quick question for Jamie and everyone else - is anyone here a qualfied professional football coach?
ReplyDeleteBring Rafa back! Please!
ReplyDeleteThat's just the ones we know about.
ReplyDeleteHow many other teams outside Chelsea and United have seriously challenged for the title until the last week of the season for years? How many managers have finished above Chelsea in the last several seasons? I can guarantee you one thing - Benitez will be the last Liverpool manager to finish above Chelsea this side of Armageddon, and we got rid of him. What kind of idiots are we?
You want to talk gross - £22.6m, translate, what does that buy you nowadays? Van der Vaart (who's price was unexpectedly low)? Who Hodgson said wasn't good enough for us. Under usual conditions, maybe one very good 1st team player oe 2-3 squad players. Add in the undeniable fact that players want to move on & age, even when things are going well, you're replacing 1-2 players minimum every season. It's why I judge transfers on a season by season basis, i.e. who they replace, what squad they were brought for, potential, value for money etc. Gross is far worse on it's on as an indicator than net, but as I say, I take a lot of other things in to account - figures aren't the be all & end all, but when someone constantly goes on about gross, the quickest defence is net.
ReplyDelete<span>I'll admit, the trash talk over Benitez does my head in, 3rd highest win percentage of any modern Liverpool manager, two places higher than Shankly.
2004-05 5th best defensive record, 5th highest scorers, 4th best goal difference
2005-06 2nd best defensive record, 4th highest scorers, 4th best goal difference
2006-07 2nd best defensive record, 4th highest scorers, 3rd best goal difference
2007-08 4th best defensive record, 3rd highest scorers, 3rd best goal difference
2008-09 2nd best defensive record, The highest scorers, The best goal difference
2009-10 3rd best defensive record, 6th highest scorers, 5th best goal difference
As we all know, goal scoring was THE problem last season. Can anyone see Roy achieving any of the stats above?</span>
I'm not wasting my time arguing such a pointless example.
ReplyDelete07-08 was the season we signed Torres, for the bulk of that £30 million, a great bit of business
ReplyDeletePeople are now obsessed with Net Spend as if it's something novel, it merely highlights the financial limtitations that were in place, but these limitations are a necessity in football. It's a business. The only reason people have to harp on about net spend is to argue Rafa's case when compared to Chelsea, and to expose H&G's limited investment (H&G owned the club, they had the right to invest hwatever they wanted)
Chelsea / Man City / Real Madrid all make a mockery of any notion of fair sporting competition with their limitless spending
NFL, NBA, NHL all have spending caps and draft systems. Maintains fair competitions and therefore fan interest (remember Boro in riverside, virtually empty at times)
Under Rafa / Houllier, Liverpool have made huge mistakes mistakes in signing players. Cheyrou, Diouf, Diao, Cisse, Keane, Aquilani, Babel etc. All shocking buys
It is unfair to judge normal spending against clubs with limitless funds, however if we compare Liverpool's signings over last 7-8 years v David Moyes at Everton we have been utterly appalling
The basic difference is that Moyes or scouts he employ seem to have an eye for a good player. It is startling that we have signed so many poor players
Benitez got rid of Sami indirectly; like so many others, he alienated him. In 2008-9, Benitez - in yet another masterstroke of man-management - dumped Sami from the CL. Our most experienced CL player; a peerless performer in Europe...and Benitez dumps him from the CL squad. Inferior, undeserving players like Philipp Degen were, however, preferred (!)
ReplyDelete6 months later, Sami left. This is not a coincidence. And he also made a mockery of Benitez's failure to play him more often by starting almost every leabue game for Bayer Leverkusen, and generally being a star player for his new club. Meanwhile, our defence went to sh1t.
Delusional Benitez supporters will never accept it though; Benitez was perfect; never made mistakes. He's a god!
Hicks hater - you can't come back on if you're banned. You can post, but your comments will never go live. I can see you tried to post, but the text of your post is hidden. You're aware of that, right?
ReplyDeleteYes, the team improved from 2nd to 7th place. I see your logic.
ReplyDeleteYou're entitled to your opinion, but in my view, this is all just more excuses.
ReplyDeleteBenitez chose Aquilani - you're suggesting that he chose him just to spend the money?! And as the LFC hierarchy has repeatedly stated publicly, money from players sales does NOT go towards debt. There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that happens, and nothing in the accounts suggests that. If you have proof this has ever taken place, then please provide it.
And 'chancing' on Keane? Again, Benitez chose the player (he admitted as much many times in public); months before the season ended he'd said LFC were tracking Keane. He had plenty of time to choose the right player and he failed. Again.
As well all know, Benitez is meticulous; he doesn't rush into things; he knows exactly what he wants. Now we're supposed to believe he rushed into buying Aquilani just to make sure he spent the money, and that he took a chance on Keane? Oh, and that spending 20m is working in the 'b' market?
I'm sorry - I appreciate your views, but it seems to me like you're another Benitez apologist who makes endless excuses for him rather than being honest.
And you know this how?
ReplyDeleteLike so many other things, it's a false assumption. Villa's net spend is not identical to Liverpool's under Benitez. Between 2004 and 2009, Villa spent 122m gross; Liverpool spent 266m. LFC's net spend was 71m; AV's was 59m.
http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/06/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-aston-villa.html
Yet another reason the net spend argument is ridiculous. Look at Villa's gross spend: 122m! 144m LESS than LFC under Benitez; yet apparently, only net spend matters here.
There we go: the circular argument in a nutshell. If it's not one excuse, you move onto another. Sell to buy is the latest excuse. PROVE IT Billy Bob!
ReplyDeleteAnswer me this: Who did Benitez have to sell to buy:
Keane
Johnson
Aquilani
Dossena
Babel
And don't say Alonso; Benitez did not have to sell him; Alonso wanted to leave as he was alienated by Benitez.
I've asked this question many times over the last week and not one of the people spouting the 'sell to buy' nonsense has answered. i wonder why that is?
There we go: the circular argument in a nutshell. If it's not one excuse, you move onto another. Sell to buy is the latest excuse. PROVE IT Billy Bob!
ReplyDeleteAnswer me this: Who did Benitez have to sell to buy:
Keane
Johnson
Aquilani
Dossena
Babel
And don't say Alonso; Benitez did not have to sell him; Alonso wanted to leave as he was alienated by Benitez.
I've asked this question many times over the last week and not one of the people spouting the 'sell to buy' nonsense has answered. i wonder why that is?
Jamie, Are you also aware Benitez tried to buy vidic, Simao, Alves amongst others and the board acted slowly or didnt have the money to close the deal, hence the buying of the likes Pennant, Reira
ReplyDeleteRight - yet another Benitez excuse: 'He was always thwarted buying the players he wanted so had to sign crap'. Show me proof. how do you know for a fact that Benitez wanted these players and the board 'acted slowly/didn't have the money to close the deal'? We had money to spend 20m on Keane; 18.6m on mascherano; 18m on Aquilani; 18m on Johnson etc, but suddenly no money for Vidic, Simao or Alves.
What is more likely is that those three players didn't want to come to Liverpool. Is that not a possibility? if not, why not?
lol.. what a chuckle, Rafa this, H&G that...lol We have had good players we've had, and still have some stinkers.. it happens, Rafa's gone, You're saying it's his squad and we're 17th his players are mediocre at best!. Beat Blackburn and we're oh 17th... Its RH team, its his players its his tactics not Rafa's , he walked the plank.. Regardless on how good bad they are they are not playing for RH. Does anyone here at this momemt intime believes RH can win us the league, say next year? Problem now is which player will want to play for RH thats any good? Van de Vaart didn't! Jamie, thanks for bring these figures to our attention, but it means nothing unless its put into the context of a running balance sheet. I loved the Lidls, Waitrose and Harrods analogy but you missed the pound shop. What is it they say becareful for what you want cos you never know what you'll get, well we got Roy.
ReplyDeleteGreat points, Midlandkop. I especially agree with the following:
ReplyDelete"If he had bought well, he would have not been in a position where he was always selling rubbish to buy more rubbish. If he had got that right, the squad would be strong now".
This is a hugely important point: if Benitez had bought well, the squad would've improved. instead, he continuall bought dross and/or players who didn't fit into the team.
The fact that you argue the following point illustrates the depth of your denial, and is the reason why it's an exercise in futility arguing with Benitez's rabid supporters:
ReplyDeleteRafa Benitez had a great first team until he was forced to sell players eg Alonso<span></span>
Unbelievable. Benitez was NOT forced to sell Alonso. This is a lie perpetuated by Benitez apologists. Benitez forced Alonso out with his pursuit of Gareth Barry; Alonso has even admitted this in a televised interview. If you believe he had to sell Alonso, where is the proof?! There is none. Why? because it's not true.
As I said: an exercise in futility.
Yes, if a newspaper/website says it, it must be true! No quotes from Benitez, Liverpool, Alves, or indeed any club connected with this alleged new. But it's true though all the same, right?
ReplyDeleteAnd why does this matter? let me guess: unless we're qualified football managers then our views on football are invalid...?
ReplyDeleteI forgot - football is so incredibly complex that only a select few geniuses are able to understand it.
Nonsense. it really bugs me how people try and intellectualise football. It is EASY. There is nothing difficult about understanding tactics; formations; the offside rule etc. Experience of football is not required to understand how the game works. The had part of football is motivating different personalities, and dealing with people in general.
This type of rubbish is exactly why we are where we are today!! Your figures do nothing other than prove the complete opposite of what your opinion on Benitez has always been. Ask any football fan, player or board member (or anyone with half a clue in business) if a NET (yes NET, the only figures that count) spend of 7m a year is good value for being the number one ranked team in Europe, 2 European finals, etc. etc. they'd laugh at you and say you must be on drugs!
ReplyDeleteRafa used to crack me up at the best of times with some of his decisions etc. but i used to think who else is out there to replace him that we could realistically get? Now that we see the best that we could get it's clear that Rafa was working miracles with the 'poor squad' Roy inherited.
As a Liverpool fan do you honestly believe that we were worse off with Benitez? I don't recall at any time being in a relegation scrap with Rafa or no win in 7 games and even though there was poor performances they were nowhere near as bad as the utter crap we're witnesing at the moment (worst football Liverpool have played under any manager I've ever seen and please correct me if I'm wrong there).
Benitez is gone he was so bad that the European champions snapped him straight up when we got rid so if you really want to use him and his record, find me any period in his time at the club that had worse results, possesion, shots on goal, worse fucking anything compared to what we're witnessing at the moment...
I'm sorry Jaimie, but I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent, but I still don't get your net/gross spend argument.
ReplyDeleteIf I have £50 and I ask you for a further £50, u say yes you can have another £50 providing you give me £30 back in the next few months. I agree, so you give me £50 and in a few months time I give you back £30. So I have now got £70 and you have £30, so you have lost £20 and I have gained £20. So even though you gave me £50, because I gave you £30 back in due course then your total outlay is only £20 not £50.
Yes you did give me £50 initially but it was borrowed money anyway that our club was paying the interest on so you haven't lost anything other than £20. But since I invested the money you gave me and it is now actually worth more, then I have made sure that your £20 outlay has now been reduced to £10.
I notice you say above that their is no evidence to support the argument that RB had to sell before he could buy? If this was the case why would he sell if he had the luxury of not worrying about the transfer fee or the wages, surely he had a budget for transfer fees and a budget for players wages otherwise he would have a squad and a bench like Man City's.
Would you do a similar analysis on other "good" managers to make a fair comparison? Rafa is good or bad only by comparison too right? During his managerial period at least.
ReplyDeleteRafa did a lot for the club even despite the mistakes he made. No club or manager will have only wins and zero losses but Rafa in my book had a very accceptable wins with what he had to deal with. I am no closet Rafa fan, I am a Rafa fan. He is no God, he is no saint but he definitely was not a bad manager. Did he not accomplish anything good during his years? Of course he also failed us at times, none more so than last year but being a manager is something not numbers could easily justify, most of us would not even know what it really is like. The human factor and what not. No, again, Rafa is not a saint, but who is?
I am curious who you might like to manage Liverpool? I liked Rafa's passion, for the game and the club more importantly, but passion can also lead a person to make mistakes, are you indeed looking for a saint or Godlike figure to manage Liverpool? Or someone who was competent and passionate for Liverpool?
The fact that Sami is a star in Leverkusen do not mean he is anything. You can call it getting rid of someone indirectly but you can also call it Sami and Rafa not agreeing on the same thing which is normal in many cases. A player leaving because he wants more is his prerogative. Arsenal too has a 1 yr extension policy. Sami could have stayed one more year and that year would have proved his service would be still required because we did have injuries in his department. He wanted to come back to Liverpool too did he not? But the club would not let him, even if this was true, it was Hodgson who wanted him back. You want to compare Leverkusen with Liverpool? If Sami is the star, how good can that team be? No offence to Sami our legend at all!
ReplyDeleteActually we did. Why do people forget 2 seasons so quickly when we were 4 points short of breaking our streak and getting our 19th title under Rafa? Who is Macheda? The player who gave Man U that 4 extra points they had ahead of us. Of course you cannot just credit their whole season to just one player or us not winning it to just one player but that two games when a non regular would come from nowhere to "steal" those precious 4 points we needed from two crucial games, its not our year.
ReplyDelete<p>Recently there was an article before the derby and the headline was the player who would walk into an Everton team and I think there was only 1 player, I couldnt be bothered to read.
</p><p>
</p><p>We have at least 3 players who can walk into ANY team in this world. Gerrard, Torres and I am sure Reina too, if not any team, then it is ANY minus a very few. There is also Johnson whom I think is also top right back. Perhaps you might ask and what about the rest? I don't think the rest are that bad are they? Did you know how many players we had at the World Cup/final? Not having enough to spend can be a problem but there were also other problems in the club. Especially now. it was really an interesting time under Rafa for more better than worse. I have a hard time considering managers that would be suitable for our beloved Liverpool. For me he has to be competent but also deeply passionate, if a she existed, I wouldnt have a problem with that ;) !
</p><p>
</p><p>Jaimie who would you like to manage Liverpool and why?
</p>
argh.....a curse..SINKING SHIP
ReplyDelete"Benitez wasted shedloads of money, and that is indisuputable"
ReplyDelete"Benitez got rid of Sami indirectly; like so many others, he alienated him. In 2008-9, Benitez - in yet another masterstroke of man-management - dumped Sami from the CL"
"Forced to sell Bellamy? Proof please. It's stuff like this that needs to stop - it's just made up. There's no evidence to support it."
All from the same poster.
Jaimie
ReplyDeleteOn the net versus gross thing (just read your comment on AV v LFC)... if you give two portfolio managers 100 quid to invest for one year - and one buys two shares and holds them for 12 months while the other one trades stocks every day with your 100 quid. At the end you ask both managers to show you the return (the increase in the value of your 100 quid). Surely you do not try to calculate how many trades each had on your behalf and add them up???? The net result is the only one that you care about. I gave you 100quid - now I have 110 quid (good job) or now I have 56 quid (poor job). You don't care how they do it - you care about the net result.
This is where your analysis methodolgy is perhaps too limited. You do need to look at the opening balance sheet and the closing balance sheet to determine net return - not just look at the sum of the transactions that occurred over the period - because we don't (usually) sell the squad when a manager leaves.
Good luck with it all.
The players I mentioned such as Vidic, Alves, Malouda mentioned it. (GOOGLE IT) It is well documented Rafa wanted things done faster when Perry was at the helm. Aquilani is doing well @ Juvetus, (I am not such how you have classified Aquilani as a bad buy) It lacks logic to classify Aquilani as a bad buy since the guy was injured and Roy gave him no chance and shipped him out. Aquilani is from ANOTHER country just as Nani and Malouda are were. These 2 players took time to settle into the EPL. Vidic said himself, Liverpool were talking then stop talking then Man U came in. Alves was meant to come and his team increase the fee to £12M on the last day of negotiation and Liverpool backed out. Just as you have research the financials of the club, the interviews of players are also available.
ReplyDeleteSince then Vidic has established himself as one the great Premier League defenders of recent years, and Carragher rues missing out on the 27-year-old.
ReplyDelete“United have got that edge on us financially,” he told The Times.
“Vidic is a classic case. He had a buyout clause of four or five million. United came along and paid seven or eight. But we can’t make excuses given the money we’ve spent.”
It is WELL DOCUMENT RAFA was after a right back that can play as a winger and Danny Alves was on this way to Anfield.
This is from Alves club Chairman...
<span>The 23-year-old's agent Jose Rodriguez said his client was very interested in a move to Anfield. </span>
<span>"Daniel is happy where he is but he wants to improve like anyone else," Rodriguez told AS newspaper. </span>
<span>"I do not want to say he does not want to stay at Sevilla but it is clear he is attracted by a move to Liverpool." </span>
<span>Alves is a long-term target of Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez. </span>
<span>Sevilla president Jose Maria del Nido said: "We're already talking big money but Sevilla don't want to lose Daniel. </span>
<span>"He has let us know the offer from Liverpool is the most important. But he has not put pressure on us and we don't have a harsh relationship with him." </span>
<span>Brazilian Alves has been at Sevilla for four years now and impressed during their Uefa Cup success in 2006, most notably in the 4-0 demolition of Middlesbrough in the final. </span>
<span>Liverpool are thought to have already made a £7m bid for the player, which was deemed too low by his current employers. </span>
<span>Del Nido added: "Liverpool have not yet made us an offer which is acceptable. Until they meet our asking price, there's no deal." </span>
FACT remain Rafa had to gamble on 5M to 8M pounds players while Chelsea and MAN U gamble with £15M and above... ( Carrick, Hargraves, Anderson, to a large extend Barbatov) are not doing the business and these are £17M and above. The only plyer Liverpool paid such money for and was a failure in my opinion is Keane. Aquilani is not a failure. He is a good midfielder and he is showing his worth at Juve. What is more moronic is the fact Roy sent him packing and bought Raul when what is needed is a striker, If you look at the current squad, Gerrard and Carra are not Rafa's signing, Reina, Torres, Mescharano, Benayoun Rafa left behind, Roy sold both Mash and Benayoun NOT Rafa, Riera for me is better on the left than J.Cole... Poulsen is a disgrace in a Liverpool shirt, but we still seem to be blaming Rafa....
I agree wholly that Rafa wasted money but you cannot prove to me he did more than his peers... Take a snap shot of the 14 keepers ManU blew on money on and most were let go for free... this sort of info doesnt make the headlines, I think journalist did a fantastic job exposing Rafa, It is a fact it is not liked by the media in this country, He is not a bad coach at all... but you can not demand Harrods quality if you only give me the budget for tesco.
You rightly mention our buys in Keane, Aquilani, Mescharano and Torres this are the plyers we have spent over £15M on in the HISTORY of the club. (We started buying in the 15M region in 2007) Man U bought a defender in the name of Rio for £30M in 2002. They were investing in their playing staff since, Ronaldo didnt come cheap @ 12M for an 18 yr boy. Chelsea did the same, but we seem to be looking for Diamonds in the rough as we never want to buy bigtime, In my opinion Rafa did very well with the resource available, I dont believe he wanted to sell Crouch and Bellamy.. but he needed to sell to [...]
Come on... This is getting ridiculous, You dont have to sell anymore player to buy. You have to look at the players sometimes you might have to sell the most sellable player you have to buy a player that gives you more balance, The fact of the matter is Rafa was trading players and NOT adding to existing squad. As mentioned. Drogba wasnt sold to fund Anelka, Rooney wasnt sold to fund Berbatov, No one was sold to fund Hargraves, Carrick, Anderson etc... We relied on trades to buy... Not neccesarily on a "particular" player, what is more logical is to do a comparison analysis of the top 4 clubs and produce the Sold and bought stats the last 6 yrs... to ask the question of which player was sold for who is myopic at best. At a time Chelsea had Ashley cole and Wayne brigdes, MAn U had Evra and Silvester and Hienze... We had John Arn Riise and we still had to SELL him to buy...
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget that we won the champions league with mostly houlliers buys. Rafa is a great coach/motivator, however, having money in his pocket sends him crazy as nearly always bought rubbish. Who told him and made the decision that dissent was a good player?
ReplyDeleteWe need to play the youngsters. They are good enough, just need faith showed in them.
Why is the youth policy at the club not producing? We have deeper rooted problems than just spending money. We need a new man, who wants to build a legacy at the helm now. Unfortunately for Roy, he was a transitional man. Rafa: you left us with ngog as second place striker. Let's see what he dies at inter...
Let's not forget that we won the champions league with mostly houlliers buys. Rafa is a great coach/motivator, however, having money in his pocket sends him crazy as nearly always bought rubbish. Who told him and made the decision that dissent was a good player?
ReplyDeleteWe need to play the youngsters. They are good enough, just need faith showed in them.
Why is the youth policy at the club not producing? We have deeper rooted problems than just spending money. We need a new man, who wants to build a legacy at the helm now. Unfortunately for Roy, he was a transitional man. Rafa: you left us with ngog as second place striker. Let's see what he dies at inter...
Yup if he had bought well... on what Budget? Are you saying Rafa ll prefer Pennant over Ribery? Are you saying Rafa preffered over Phillip Lahm? Are you saying Rafa prefered Ngog over Anelka? He just had to speculate and buy within his budget. Good players do not come cheap... Valencia left Wigan for Man U for £17M. Mauloda went from Lyon to Chelsea for £17M. WHAT THE HIGHEST LIVERPOOL EVER PAID FOR A WINGER? When was the last time we broke the English record in signing? The man Rafa had to be an accountant and a manager at the same time... Not an easy task, it is easy for you write your opinions, we all have one, but the fact remains while Man U start to invest in £20M and above 9 yrs ago, we just started to 3 yrs ago... You are not suddenly going to be better than Man U. Chelsea had to spend a lot too to caught, but it seem you are expecting miracles from Rafa, Take a look at cheleas back 4, underr Jose, Ferriara(17M) Terry(academy), Calvaho(17M), Ashley Cole (swap for Gallass)
ReplyDeleteMan U - Neville (Free) Rio (£29M) Vidic (8M) Evra (8M)
Liverpool - Alberola (£2.5) Carra (free) Hyypia (2.5M) Risse (£4M)
The fact is Rafa bought well, He wouldnt be sacked and we wouldnt be in this position. My point is Rafa have wasted money so has Mourinho and Ferguson, What you fail to understand is the difference, Man U and Chelsea had bigger budgets and can afford too make mistakes.
ReplyDeleteDo you realise Lucas and Anderson were team mates for brasil under 19? Lucas was bought for £5M and Anderson was bought for £17M. no one is talking about failure here as Man U can sign carrick and Hargraves... If Rafa had sign 3 bad midfielders at an average of £17M... you ll be on him by now.... FUNNY
Invalid argument, The same season Hyppia was dropped, Agger was played more and we finished 2nd in the league. Hyppia wanted more games and his new team offered him that. Again Degen wasnt prefered as Degen is a right back while Hyppia was a central defender, we are WELL equipped in the CL department with Carra, Agger and Stktel. we were lacking on the right back department hence the inclusion of Degen.
ReplyDeleteA one-sided argument is a variant of the logical fallancy known as special pleading. In this variant, only the reasons supporting a proposition are supplied, while all reasons opposing it are omitted.
Bully tactics ?? You should respect your commentators, The person asked if any of us is a football coach. While there are not empirical evidence to support the notion that only coach can analyse football, the commentator is free to ask as please. His question is football related and i think it is the height of arrogance, ignorance to shut him down. You are of the view that all that is required in the football is motivation and dealing with people in general, some of us have our views...
ReplyDeleteThe same coach can motivate players to win (Sven/Capello) at their clubs but couldnt motivate England to win. What is changed? THE PLAYERS ... No matter how good of a motivator you are, if you do not have the players, not much you can do.
Are you saying he could have bought Torres and kept Bellamy and Crouch? prove it. The most logical conclusion is he needed to fund Torres and had to raise the fund. LOGIC.
ReplyDeleteWhy didnt Man U sell Rooney for Berbatov and Chelsea didnt sell Drogba for Anelka... I am guessing Rafa is just plain stupid and just thot Torres can play all 60s + on his on.... IT MAKES NO SENSE. The only logical conclusion is Rafa had to sell. End of.
If BBC says it likehood of truth is very high, It is not your side or the sun we are talking about here... the likes of BBC deals with FACTS, the likes of you deal mostly with what one ll call opinion, it is never fair and very unbalance. as you have stated your site is not a democracy and you run it as you pleased. That speak volume about your person. Taliban tendency ??
ReplyDeleteYes, Chelsea and man u earn more than Liverpool. That's why we need a new stadium. However, Chelsea and
ReplyDeleteMan u have got better youth policy than us. Why? They have kids come up and get into first team. Just because you have 6 million to spend instead of 12 dies not mean you buy rubbish! At least buy some potential, instead of 27/ 26 year olds that are rubbish anyway!
Anyone half decent( Bellamy, crouch) he fell out with and sold!
Kind Regards
Vinnie Jassal
Rainmaker Location Management Ltd
T: +44 7792323246
E: Rainmakerlocations@gmail.com
http://www.imdb.me/vinniejassal
Company No: 7367280
On 24 Oct 2010, at 07:49, "Echo"<js-kit-m2c-6nlrcuqn47g1dtst14ln8dgqd8480cmckkvmmi16cf3nre944180> wrote:
</js-kit-m2c-6nlrcuqn47g1dtst14ln8dgqd8480cmckkvmmi16cf3nre944180>
Intelligent debates are fair and balanced not one sided Sir.
ReplyDeleteRafa MUST be blamed for some of his conduct. He is no saint. Aqulini bought injured, Alonso sold, Hyypia sold, etc My view is very simple, what were the resources? what were his accomplishments... Has he done fairly well considering the resources and the enviroment which he found himself. I ll say YES he did. 2 CL final, an FA Cup.
ReplyDeleteHe wasnt able to get us the league.. but the investment required wasnt there when compared to his peers that have won the league (Man U and Chelsea). We have been outspent and it makes NO LOGIC sense to claimed we spend £300M. This value included all trades..
Jamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteJamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteJamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteJamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteJamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to add to this discussion. While I am a huge fan of Rafa, I am not stupid. I admit that rafa made a lot of mistakes, especially concerning tactics during some games and I may not have agreed with some of his strange substitutions policies. Anyway, One thing I want to point out is, I keep telling many supporters that we do not know for a fact what rafa had in mind when sending out a team or substituting someone. Sometimes it seemed plain stupid and weird but the thing is, sometimes he knows that the player needs to rest or risks injuries.
ReplyDeleteNow getting back to this transfer spending debate. I already knew that rafa has had very little money to spend. Now, while he may have bought shit players like Riera, Lucas, Degen, Voronin(although both on a free), krompkamp,nunez, josemi, pennant, dossena and aquilani; I would also add babel to that list.
Now, let see, all of the above mentioned signing were crap this is given. However, this is where the net spending becomes important. We needed a new striker, he bought bellamy. Bellamy did not work out, we sold him and bought crouch. Contrary to what readers may think, rafa did not want to sell crouch but crouch wanted to play every game so he left. he brought in Ngog and keane. He needed a new right back, he had to sell to buy one every time meaning we always had only one rb. As for the Xabi saga, he did alienate Xabi. But he did so indirectly. Rafa wanted to buy Barry for 18million. He asked for 18 million up front. The two clowns said no. So he had to sell to buy. He could not sell all the fringe players because they would not give him enough money meaning we would be left with a very little squad. Therefore, he decided to sell Xabi.
Now, let us look more closely at his purchases.
Lucas- golden boot in Brazil- received award that just 4 brazilians received before him- Kaka, Ronaldo, Ronaldinio.
Babel- Up and rising star in Dutch football
Keane- a high scoring striker in Tottenhasm- admittedly not good enough for LFC.
Dossena- one of the star italian left back in Italian league the year before he joined LFC.
Riera- admittedly not good enough yet broke into Spanish squad when at LFC.
Just a few players who had good reputations but failed to shine
Now when rafa had the money- He bought-
Torres, Xabi, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Mascherano- Babel(see above), Garcia
The above is when he really had the money and did not need to sell before buying.
Finally one last argument, while he made mistakes one proof that he did not have the money and needed to sell before buying-
He wanted Simao, Silva, Alves, Villa, Etoo
Hope this clears a few things
Jamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDeleteFair and Balanced. Agreed with you !!!! He wanted Vidic, Evra, as well... No backing from the board.
ReplyDeleteCan't figure the Rafa nutters, they're really in love with that guy. Shows you what our supporters have come to getting sentimental over someone who in the end was inept; lost the dressing room; took us to 7th in the league, a difficult task even for him; had us playing the most bum-numbing, defensive rubbish I've seen from a Liverpool side.
ReplyDeleteBefore you start comparing him with the present manager, I'd also like to see him gone sharpish, because the relegation zone's a difficult place to get out of and I don't think Roys up to the task of re-instilling the confidence needed to climb out. I know, I was a supporter when we went down in the early fifties. Noone thought it could happen then.
So there you see, not everyone who says they thought Rafa wasn't a good manager think that Hodgson is, as most of the Rafa worshipers appear to assume. It's academic anyway, Rafa's gone and Roy will be too if results don't improve so let's just support the team.
Enjoy your balanced articles Jamie and the obvious hard work you put into getting the FACTS.
Better youth policy is a function of stability... MAN U manager has been there for 23 yrs.. and Arsene Wenger have been there for 13 yrs... You dont build a good youth policy overnight, I am sure Jamie ll blame Rafa for this, Some of our youth have been freed by Roy the ship steadier. We sold Insua for Konchesy... 24 yr old Maschrano for 30 yr old Poulson.... Now I was reading Reina is fedup as Roy got a new goal keeping coach that 68 yrs old... a man Reina cant relate too, so he wants out ASAP
ReplyDeleteJohn
ReplyDeletePlease can you make sense of Rafa's Transfers In & Out Per Season in his six year tenure?
Season 04/05
Players IN:
Carson, Morientes, Pellegrino, Nunez, Garcia, Josemi.
Players OUT:
Diouf, Smicer, Henchoz, Owen, Murphy, Babbel.
Season 05/06
Players IN:
Bellamy, Fowler, Agger, Reina, Kromkamp, Crouch, Sissoko, Zenden, Gonzalez.
Players OUT:
Cheyrou, Morientes, Josemi, Baros, Nunez, Vignal, Pellegrino.
Season 06/07
Players IN:
Lucas, Mascherano, Arbeloa, El Zhar, Kuyt, Pennant, Aurelio, Paletta.
Players OUT:
Pongolle, Diao, Warnock, Kirkland, Kromkamp, Mellor, Traore, Hamann.
Season 07/08
Players IN:
Skrtel, Plessis, Insua, Babel, Benayoun, Leto, Torres, Itandje, Voronin.
Players OUT:
Sissoko, Paletta, Fowler, Dudek, Gonzalez, bellamy, Cisse, Zenden, Garcia.
Season 08/09
Players IN:
Deggan, Dossena, Cavaleiri, Keane, Reira, Ngog.
Players OUT:
Le Tallec, Kewell, Crouch, Gutherie, Risse, Carson, finnan, Keane.
Season 09/10
Players IN:
Johnson, Aquilani, Kyrgiakos, Rodriguez.
Players OUT:
Hyypia, Leto, Pennant, Arbeloa, Alonso, Voronin, Dossena.
Waiting for your reply...
The same Rafa stopped the "special one" from winning the CL while he was at Chelsea. beat inter, madrid, we also beat Man U on our way to F.A Cup glory... He is suddenly a bad coach, I guess that is why Inter the currrent Euro Champs gladly took him of Liverpool.
ReplyDeleteWe seem to forget we had 2 owners fighting each other, revenues from games and commercial deals were used to service debt instead of investing in playing staff, Perry and moore sold the club to the highest bidder for their own greed. There are amongst the reason why we are 19th in the league.
BUT Jamie seem to think these ARE RAFA's FAULT.... ;) Genius....
Bring the proof and paste the links where QUOTES are provided that RAFA wanted players which the MEDIA published...
ReplyDeleteWell you administar a website and you expect us to believe your opinions... NO? At least the likes of BBC and quotes from players and chairmen of clubs are more CREDIBLE. Common sense tells my Rafa ll prefer Torres and Crouch than Torres and Ngog, Common sense tells me Rafa ll rather have Barry and Alonso than selling Alonso for Barry... but if the money is not there you must sell to buy... Not sure what more prove you need that Rafa's situation is unlike Jose's at Chelsea or Ferguson at old Trashford.
ReplyDeleteThe value of the squad means shite if it is not winning anyting i.e in Rafa's last for years of his LFC tenure he won shite. He bought the players and nobody else can be blamed for it. Rafa bought the players and managed the team. if the value of the squad increased then surely we should have won more trophies?
ReplyDeleteThe value of the squad means shite if it is not winning anyting i.e in Rafa's last for years of his LFC tenure he won shite. He bought the players and nobody else can be blamed for it. Rafa bought the players and managed the team. if the value of the squad increased then surely we should have won more trophies?
ReplyDeleteThe value of the squad means shite if it is not winning anyting i.e in Rafa's last for years of his LFC tenure he won shite. He bought the players and nobody else can be blamed for it. Rafa bought the players and managed the team. if the value of the squad increased then surely we should have won more trophies?
ReplyDeleteJamie the only true way to ascertain if Rafa spent money well is to take the value of the squad at the point he took over and compare that against the value of the squad when he left. If the value is greater (taking onto account inflation and not counting players like gerrard who was already there) than 7m then he did not spend that badly. I know the values of players maybe subjective but this would be a far fairer way to judge.
ReplyDelete04-05 - winning the Champions league.
ReplyDelete05-06 - winning the F.A Cup.
06-07 - getting to the Final of another Champions League.
07-08 -
Skrtel, Plessis, Insua,(youth academy) Babel, Benayoun, Torres, (instrumental to finishing 2nd ) Itandje, Voronin (free we had no money)
08-09 - Kewell, Finnan old and had to go. Risse a big mistake for selling. Carson had potential but we sold for more than we paid for him (good investment). Crouch was offered more money at Spurs..(google it) we couldnt match it. Keane a VERY bad buy I admit.
09-10 - johnson decent but too expensive in my opinion. Aquilani is playing well at Juve (pls watch more than the EPL). Kyrgiakos is a good squad player. Rodriguez is free. (I am sure Rafa ll prefer Lennon or SWP but can we pay for it?)
Hyypia wanted football and not sub (Rafa is right here as Agger played more the season we finished second) Leto - bad buy. Arbeola wanted Madrid and he is still playing well. Alonso was hurt by what happend with Barry and felt unwanted by Rafa, (BIG BIG mistake) Voronin?? Are you kidding me? Dossena is just crap.
Thanks for you reply Jamie. In my personal opinion it is unfair to say football is easy to understand or have knowledge and that it doesnt matter if you have coaching experience, qualifications etc... Too many people criticise managers/coaches at all levels and yet these very same people cant even take/deleiver a warm-up or dont know how to man manage/motivate/communicate.
ReplyDeleteI do understand why the people have their views on football - coz its entertainment. I suppose if Accountancy or Plumbing were just as entertaining as football, music or film then people again would opinionate on Accountancy and Plumbing.
It's ok though i take your opinion on board and thanks for providing the figures.
The thing is everyone has an opinion and everyone has an arse hole.
Aquilani is doing well at Juve. <span>http://bit.ly/9BcKNh </span>
ReplyDeleteHe was signed for 5 years, not one season. It would be wrong to write him off as a failure.
He should of stayed. Sending him on loan was a stupid decision, we probably won't see any fee until next year. And theres already a clause in the loan deal that give Juve option to buy at a fixed price(when his value could excede that).
Thats shocking business.
I agree that Aquilani was bought at the wrong time, because throughout the season, according to Peter Brukner - his ankle problem was an ongoing problem last season. And I'll admit, Rafa didnt play him as much as I'd liked - but I understand the decision.
But he shouldn't of been sent off to Juve by Roy. Awful decision, football/business wise.
Aquilani IS class, one of the highly rated midfielders in Italy, to part of the next gen of the italian NT.
<span>Fact is, according to the opta stats, he set up a goal every 136 minutes -the best assist rate in the top five leagues in Europe in 2009-10</span>
The times...he finally got fit, started, he looked the part. Showed creatively, linked well with the other players. He a foreigner in new team and new league, and it takes time to adapt. But the signs very impressive. he CAN do it here.
The same people who write him off a flop, usually tend to defend Gerrard last season. Bizarre.
He would be better suited to the "hole" Am position, than Gerrard(on current form) Kuyt, and certainly better suited to hole than Joe cole.
<p>But Peter Bukner, one of the worlds best sports medicine specialist, said earlier this season, his ankle problem, which was on ongoing problem last season was finally healed 100%, hes getting close to full fitness and that well see the best of Aquilani. Then he was sent away, its ridiculous.
</p><p>
</p><p>Then Roy spends 5million on a juve reject, Poulsen.- a complete waste of 5 mil.
</p><p>
</p><p>I'd love to see that 5 million, "recouped". But we won't, Poulsen is 30. 5 million down the drain. What about Konchesky, hes 29, we will see money "recouped" from this old average english players.
</p><p>
</p><p>But, I understand why someone as tactically inept as Hodgson sent Aquilani to Italy. I doubt Roy would have any clue how to use a modern footballer that likes to play it on the floor, as opposed to "hoofing" it to Torres.
</p><p>
</p><p>But hey, the same people who wrote Aquilani off as a failure, thought it was great idea to let go of Rafa and replace with a "english, arm around the shoulder guy - that would stop using Rafas confusing "continental tactics", get rid of players like Aqua, and replace with english like players like poulsen, put stevie g the middle - and everything well be fine.
</p><p>
</p><p>Well, a world class manager was replaced by journeyman that uses dinasour tactics, We're 19th. And if we loose to Blackburn, it will be the worst start since 1900.
</p><p>Working out brilliantly is it?</p>
Nemanja Vidic has no regrets about turning down a transfer to Liverpool. The 24-year-old defender snubbed a move to Anfield in favour of signing for Manchester United, and speaking to the Manchester Evening News, the former Spartak Moscow man has no regrets. “I did receive some offers from other clubs, including Liverpool,” said Vidic. "But as soon as I heard United were interested, I wanted to sign immediately and I have no doubts I made the right decision.
ReplyDeleteJohn
ReplyDeleteI think you are missing the point where Rafa consistently bought players that were not good enough.
When he did buy good players he then sold them and replaced them with rubbish.
That is why I asked you to do reply with a comment explaining his transfres per season i.e The players he bought for example in 04/05 and the players he let go in that same season.
When Roma released the details of the Aqulani deal there was only an initial small payment, with guaranteed payments (i.e not based on any target) at set times over an 18month period or so (plus possible target based additions). I think they were due a sizable payment this summer for instance.
ReplyDeleteDo the accounts only display payments made? I fear with the cash problems G+H had in recent years we have been doing a lot of pay later deals that will be effecting future balance sheets.
And I have answered you. Those buys are justified by his achievements listed above... What point am i missing? He made changes and we won CL, got to another CL final, won the FA cup.. Got more points to fininsh second...
ReplyDeleteThere is no point missing here....
Links & QUOTES from RAFA's Mouth please...
ReplyDeleteVidic explains that it was the best choice to go to manure not because we didnt have money to buy him i.e.
"But as soon as I heard United were interested, I wanted to sign immediately and I have no doubts I made the right decision."Does he say that we diidn't have the money to buy him or does he say that he made the best choice to go to manure?
ReplyDelete2004-05 5th best defensive record, 5th highest scorers, 4th best goal difference
2005-06 2nd best defensive record, 4th highest scorers, 4th best goal difference
2006-07 2nd best defensive record, 4th highest scorers, 3rd best goal difference
2007-08 4th best defensive record, 3rd highest scorers, 3rd best goal difference
2008-09 2nd best defensive record, The highest scorers, The best goal difference
2009-10 3rd best defensive record, 6th highest scorers, 5th best goal difference
For the expection of the last season there is improvements on the team... Are you safisfied now? :-[
<span>
Read more: </span><span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/10/rafa-benitezs-grossnet-spend-figures.html#ixzz13GZVNTLf</span>
LOL... so u need Rafa to speak to confirm the validity of Vidic's intentions...? Sadly I do not have a quote from Rafa.... Vidic's statement is as good.
ReplyDeleteit does not matter how the deal for Aquilani was done, the FEE agreed by both clubs will be the FEE which is paid out. if they did not agree on a FEE to bring Aquilani to LFC then he would have never been signed by LFC.
ReplyDeleteIf it states that Aquilani will be sold to LFC for +- 18mil on the paperwork which both clubs signed then LFC will pay +- 18mil for Aquialni no matter what. It is a LEGAL DOCUMENT which both clubs agreed upon and it will show that Aquilani cost the club alot of money.
You are be deluded if you like and asssume we offered Vidic's club more money but they decided to sell to Man U. The truth was Vidic had a get out clause of 5M we matched it and Man U came with 7M.
ReplyDeleteGO AND DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU COME HERE !!!
Sorry Jamie,if i am looking to buy a new car of course i know i will get an amount of
ReplyDeletemoney in part exchange to compensate for the initial outlay of the new car price,so knowing how much part ex i get gives me a better idea of how much i want to spend??
In my opinion,Rafa was NEVER given the proper funds to compete when other Prem
clubs where spending £20/30 million on single players in order to compete at the very
top,which i expect H&G did.
Same amount Man U paid for Carrick, Hargraves and Anderson? all flopped... Ferguson is a genius.... =-O
ReplyDeleteMy point is that everytime Rafa got rid of a player which was either not good enough or wanted to leave he then bought another player which was as rubbish and the trend continued.
ReplyDeleteThe facts are there, unfortunetly your stats on defense and goals scored don't mean shite if you arent winning anything when it comes to the EPL which are the stats which you have posted on...
John
ReplyDeleteVidic clearly states that when manure came in with an offer he wanted to sign immidiately.
Now please quote Rafa on the other players that he was supposedly interested in which wre published by the MEDIA.
I am waiting for your reply with links where Rafa has quoted the players that he wanted to bring to LFC.
Sorry AGAIN Jamie,Sami wasn`t in the CL because we had LOADS of cover at centre back,and the rest of the squad where spread as is/was.It was always Rafa`s policy to give ageing players rolling contracts(good business in my mind) so off he went,Rafa had the guts to give a very dissapointing Xavi a kick up the backside,and !!!so HE spits his dummy out and wants to leave as did Crouch as did Masch and Benayoun,yes who`d be a Premier League Manager.
ReplyDeleteOh dear...
ReplyDeletePlease list all the Tropies which Sir Alex has won.
Idiotic. No need for that.. Point is Rafa is not immune from mistakes...
ReplyDeleteNot going to waste my time on that... Danny Alves of Sevilla's chairman spoke about alves going to Liverpool.... Price was increased on the last day and Liverpool backed out.. GO and do your research.
ReplyDeleteI rest my case. Facts on defensive record and goals score doesnt mean shite? I thought if those were improved on, on a yr on yr basis, then it speaks volume. But if that doesnt mean anything to you, then no basis for discussion!!! You are inept.
ReplyDeleteNo John, that makes you the idiot because Sir Alex has made mistakes but he has won TROPHIES and PLENTY of TROPHIES making those mistakes...
ReplyDeleteBut the £53m doesn't exist without recouping the money either. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ReplyDeleteOK John BUT
ReplyDeleteFortunately I am not going to waste my time doing research on drivel which the MEDIA publishes...
hat is you running into a brick wall, cause all you can reply with is telling me that I am inept but FACT is that YOUR STATS won us shite.
ReplyDeleteClear enough for you?
That is you running into a brick wall, cause all you can reply with is telling me that I am inept but FACT is that YOUR STATS won us shite.
ReplyDeleteClear enough for you?
Actually your wrong, the Villa net spend was £66m & this is £5m less than Liverpool's in spend in 6 years, done in 3 whilst not creating anywhere near the income revenue Liverpool do. Either we were underspending on our earning potential or Villa were over spending & getting into serious debt.
ReplyDeleteBabel was never a forward - check his goal scoring record, he was what I'd class as an old inside left in a 4-3-3 formation, basically a winger who doesn't really hug the touch line. Babel just says he's a striker & virtually every time I see him shoot, he proves himself wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't care how much the man spent, I've seen Liverpool win at Real, Barca, Inter. We knocked Chelsea and Arsenal out of the Champions League. Finished with the two highest points totals in my lifetime.
ReplyDeleteWe now have a manager who thinks beating Trabzonspor is 'legendary' and thinks League Two opposition is 'formiddable'.
Ive read many of your articles and one thing you never seemed to grasp is that 'critical' analysis is all well and good, but who do you replace the manager with?
Roy is the worst manager we have had since Souness
You wanted O'Neill, not good enough for Villa though is he
So i don't care about what he spent, who he 'drove' out of the club, its all petty arguments. fact is we were a much better team under him and unless the next manager is a class act we are in massive trouble
The quotes you got from Vidic - direct or via the media?
ReplyDeleteLee - that is not the only true way to ascertain if Benitez spent money well. As you say, it is far too subjective. Fans who support Benitez will always choose this approach because it can be twisted in his favour.
ReplyDeleteThe only fair way to judge Benitez's transfer spending is to examine at the players he bought and see how effective they were, i.e. Did the players he bought:
* Have a consistent, specific, measurable positive impact on the team?
* Genuinely improve the team?
To answer those two questions evidence will be required, and this evidence is easy to find, and not subjective.
The whole point of buying players is to enhance the team, and improve the team's capability of competing for trophies, is it not? This is what needs to be measured, and in Benitez's case, he clearly failed in the last 4 years of his reign. He wasted tens of millions on ineffective players, and the team/squad suffered.
Name the last player to come through Man United's youth academy. That's their academy, not signed from another club - now do the same for Chelsea & Arsenal. The Arsenal one is very surprising by the way, considering the praise Wenger gets for grooming young boys.
ReplyDeleteRoddenberry, we meet again...
ReplyDeleteOf course they are from the media, your point?
I have asked John to provide links which have been published by the MEDIA which QUOTE RAFA on the players he wanted to bring to Anfield, Maybe you can provide us with the information?
You seem to dismiss the fact that Alonso wanted to go back to Spain to raise his family, that Benitez turned down 2 transfer requests before he was sold, that Alonso's form dipped & Lucas had more assists than him one season. Alonso's great last season, supposedly playing for a man he dodn't like - what great management that must of been. Alonso stated he was told that Benitez wanted Barry to play alongside him, but you always conveniently leave that part out, it was the second time we went in for Barry that Rafa was told he had to balance the books.
ReplyDeleteRafa having a higher win percentage than Shankly speaks for itself and any Liverpool manager that manages that, deserves respect.
If a media/website says it, it must be true (sarcasm) - I'll apply that to your site to.
ReplyDeleteBenitez was looking to sell Alonso in order to buy Barry the year before, that was why Benitez was forced to sell to buy.
ReplyDeleteIam not sitting here defending Benitez and all his decisions but the point I am making is that Benitez did have to sell to buy, and he said that many times during his time at the club.
According to your argument Jamie and The Roy Hodgson Brigade Rafa was an accountants wet dream were he would not take money out of the clubs purse he would only take money out if he could put it back in at a later date.
Your contradicting yourself Jamie if you saying that Rafa didn't have to juggle between selling and buying players as your very own articleproves that the club didn't bank roll Benitez to the point where Benitez wasn't forced to make ends meet by selling players.
Like I have said I am not blindly defending Benitez but in his defence the squad wouldn't be so rubbish and weak if Rafa was not forced in to doing this.
TRHB - You think Benitez is rubbish for not winning anything recently. Liverpool are only one of 4 clubs currently in the Premiership to win anything in the last 5 years and you'll not find Arsenal on that list. You must think Wenger is an awful manager, especially when it comes to buying keepers.
ReplyDeleteAnd too add Iam not saying that Rafa was right selling Alonso to Bring in Barry but he was looking to buy Barry on the back of Alonso money.
ReplyDeleteIf any other club had been in that position i.e. United or Chavs, then they would have kept Alonso and bought Barry as well,instead as your accounts show the squad was left weakend because of the lack of investment in the squad.
TRHB - Please list all Fergies flops & compare it to Rafa's GROSS spend.
ReplyDeleteBenitez bought the players which put on the Red shirt and they clearly weren't and still aren't good enough to win the EPL.
ReplyDeleteYou obviously are not able to make proper comments because what will be the point of comparing Fergies flops to Rafa's Gross which is 289mil?
ReplyDeleteAnd what difference will that make to the amount of TROPHIES which Fergie has won?
Please mate, reply with proper comments or otherwise dont reply.
Make mistakes and won trophies cos despite his mistakes, money is made available by owners to buy quality... As I have stated before in the history of Liverpool we have bought 5 players at £15M and above. ( Torres, Mash, Keane, Aquilani and Johnson)
ReplyDeleteMan U ( Rio, Rooney, Valencia, Carrick, Nani, Anderson, Hargraves, Berbatov, Veron, )Stam and Yorke cost over 10M back in 1998/1999.
Andy Cole was a record signing. RVN is £19M. etc... I have listed 10 players over 15M to Man U. We have had only 5.
We have never been able compete financially.
I agree with you that the players that Rafa bought were not good enough but I will not say that all the blame should be placed on Rafa's shoulders.
ReplyDeleteThe lack of funds was also a contributing factor.
Of course you should apply that to this site. The difference is This site is opinion based and has never held itself out to be otherwise. I don't post supposition and rumour about transfers and hold it out as fact.
ReplyDeleteSent from iPhone
On 24 Oct 2010, at 11:25, "Echo" <js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irlqngb7qvmgu1vc5d4h9mgg1ji7jhvv0vjthptndg> wrote:
</js-kit-m2c-1hn7v1urs4irlqngb7qvmgu1vc5d4h9mgg1ji7jhvv0vjthptndg>
We are not capable of winning, You pay peanuts you get monkeys... We won the FA cup and the Champions league.... So are you are not factual. His methods got us to second, we couldnt have won the league due to a number of factors such as the funds available, buying below average players (due to lack of fund) and some Rafa's mistake. If you think Rafa had a chance wit the amount Chelsea and Man U spent, You might as well change your name to ALICE cos you are in WONDERLAND
ReplyDelete