28 Oct 2010

EXCLUSIVE: Liverpool vs. Arsenal - Transfer spending comparison: 1990-2010 *Never published before*

How much money has Liverpool and Arsenal spent on transfers between 1990 and the present day? For the first time ever - either online or offline - here is a comparison between the two clubs for that entire period (using official figures).

NOTES

* The figures include all transfers up to and including Roy Hodgson's activity in the transfer market.

* The figures (bar Hodgson's transfers and Wenger'ss transfers since July 2009) have been compiled from the club's official financial accounts, i.e. a factual, irrefutable source. The club accounts are inalienable; there is a legal duty to provide accurate, correct figures on a yearly basis. Thus, any other figures in the press/on other websites that do not match these figures are WRONG.

* The purchases/sale price figures for Benitez's transfers from 2009 till he left are included in the 'Post Balance Sheet Events' section of the 2009 Accounts. Evidence below:

* Albert Aquilani + Sotiris Kyrgiakos (Bought for a combined 20.4m)



* Xabi Alonso, Andrea Dossena + Andrei Voronin (Sold for a combined 29.7m)



The only two transfers not noted in the accounts are:

* Jonjo Shelvey - £1.7m
* Ayala - £160k

I got those figures from LFChistory.net. They will do until I can get check the figures when next years accounts are released.

* Hodgson's transfers and Wenger's post May 2009 transfers (May is Arsenal's accounting deadline) I used the following figures:

HODGSON IN

* Raul Meirelles - £11.5m
* Paul Konchesky - £3.5m
* Danny Wilson - £2m
* Christian Poulsen - £4.5m
* Brad Jones - £2.3m

OUT

* Albert Riera £3.3m
* Diego Cavalieri £3m
* Krisztián Németh £1m
* Javier Mascherano £17.25m
* Lauri Dalla Valle £750k
* Alex Kacaniklic £750k
* Nikolay Mihaylov £1.5m
* Mikel Domínguez £2.6m
* Yossi Benayoun £6m

These figures were taken from reliable LFC sources. Again, I'm only using these as the club accounts for 2010 are not available yet.

WENGER IN

* Thomas Vermaelen, Laurent Koscielny + Sebastian Squillaci - £21.8m

OUT

* Emmanuel Adebayor + Kolo Toure - £41m

These figures were taken from reliable Arsenal sources (Arsenal Transfers | Arsenal Fan's Blog

Obviously, for both teams, all loan deals/free transfers are excluded from the calculations.

99% of the figures come from the accounts of both clubs; 1% come from the official websites of each club and other recognised sources. I love the hypocrisy here - it's alright for every other site to use the likes of LFChistory.net for their entire analysis, but when I use it for a few figures (and only because the accounts are not available), it's suddenly wrong, and the figures are wrong!

* Adjustment for inflation is not necessary here. It’s ridiculous to even suggest it (as many did in my last article). I am merely presenting the facts - a like for like comparison between the two clubs.

LIVERPOOL FC vs. ARSENAL: TRANSFER SPENDING - 1990-2010


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KEY POINTS

* Arsenal have spent less - both gross and net - in the last 20 years.

* Arsenal's total net spend (£80m) is 53% lower than Liverpool's (£172m)

* Liverpool recouped 21% more in player sales than Arsenal over 20 years.

* In the 90s, Arsenal again had a lower gross and net spend than Liverpool. However, despite this apparent handicap, they still managed to win 3 league titles.

* In the 00s, Liverpool had a 68% higher net spend than Arsenal.

* From 2004-2010, Arsenal have a negative net spend of -£11.4m, compared to Liverpool's net spend during the same period of £71m. According to the net spend cult, Liverpool have not had enough money to spend (!). If that's the case, where does that leave Wenger with a minus net spend over the last 6 years?! Does it mean (as the net spend cult argue) that he has not been given any money to spend, and that Arsenal's transfers in over the last 6 years cost nothing?!

Considered in tandem with the Man United comparison I did yesterday (which showed that United had also spent less money that Liverpool), these figures show once again that the club has wasted an unacceptable amount of money on duff players over the last 20 years.

You only have to look at what Ferguson and Wenger have achieved with less resources to see that Liverpool's transfer spending needs to dramatically improve. And it seems NESV agrees with this too - their latest comments about being smart with money should be welcomed by Liverpool fans; if a more stringent, accountable transfer policy means the club managers are no longer allowed to waste tens of millions on ineffective players, then I'll take it.

I don't think I have, but if I've missed any of Arsenal's 2009-10 transfers (i.e. where money changed hands; not loans, free transfers etc), then please let me know and I'll update the table.


Jaimie Kanwar


115 comments:

  1. As an Arsenal fan these figures are not surprising.Wenger has bought exceptionally well and has run the club frugally since the building of the new stadium. Liverpool have wasted alot of money on rubbish players, particularly under Benitez. why would he want to replace alonso with barry? and the aquilani transfer is a fiasco.

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  2. Thanks for the analysis Jaimie, over the last few days. The conclusions can only be drawn from these figures is that LFC, have been financially mismanaged over the last 2 decades. There are a number of factors behind this, but what hasn't helped is that instead of systematically building the club from the ground up we have tried to 'jump start' title challenges with players who are supposed to be the' final piece'.

    With each managerial regime there has been 2 steps forward and then 1 step back.

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  3. I can't find a way of verifying your statement below as the fees dont appear to be mentioned in either of the websites you have listed:

    <span>WENGER IN </span>

    * Thomas Vermaelen, Laurent Koscielny + Sebastian Squillaci - £21.8m<span>

    <span>
    </span>Can you clear this up?
    </span>

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  4. Shane,

    I greatly admire Wenger as a manager, and Arsenal is a well run club, however you have not won a trophy in 6 years, as opposed to LFC who won one 5 years ago, and despite our waste of money on rubbish players, I think that 3 out of 5 years we finished above you under Benitez, as well as reached more CL Finals in that time compared to Wenger's whole time in charge of Arsenal.

    This is not an attack on your club or Wenger, but if your club is in the business of winning trophies surely in recent times Wenger has failed?

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  5. As an Arsenal fan I am very interested in your diligent research. I think to tell the whole story, if it were possible, I think a comparison of the teams wage bills would also be illustrative. The correlation between wages and success appears to as important as 'net spend'. Arsenal do have a high wage bill- 'in defence' of Liverpool, their's may well be significantly less.
    That bering said, without wishing to come across as patronising, the Arsenal model probably is the best way forward for Liverpool to compete with the financial clout of Citeh, United and Chelsea. A five-year plan of developing young players picked up as 18/19 yr olds should do it!

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  6. The figures are there between the two links.  You'll have to look around the pages a little.  And anyway, those figures were reported in about 1000 different places at the time.  In the absence of the accounts, I have to use different sources.  it should be noted though that it is only a few transfers in one year that I've used websites; every other transfer from 1990 until July 2009 has come straight from club accounts.

    I just find it highly amusing that people are so desperate to discredit the figures that they ignore the 99% worth of figures that are irrefutable (i.e. from accounts), in favour of trying to prove that the remaining 1% of figures are wrong.

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  7. I would rather watch Arsenal play exciting scintillating football and win nothing than watch the boring drudgery of Liverpool under Benitez.  Football is also about entertainment.  Well, it used to be.

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  8. Apparently Mascherano was 17.25 up front with 6 mill of add ons.

    As for replacing Alonso with Barry....you forget for two seasons Alonso had been average. He never really recovered from his ankle break by Fat Frank. Only when Rafa clumsily flirted with Garry Barry did he have the best season of his life. Whatever you say about Barry he is used to the prem and would have slotted slot in well with Stevie G.  I still miss Xabi though.......................

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  9. i'm finding it hard to see your point of this gross/net theory or whatever you are doing. i understand as a liverpool fan that we have wasted alot of money but the two teams in question were against have basically always had better teams than us since the start of the premier league so they have been mantaining there where as we have been spending money mostly unwisely to keep up and catch back to them. An the teams that have outspent us like Chelsea since 2004 and Blackburn in the mid 90's are the only team to overpower these two teams. i'm not sure what season it was but one year i think United actually won the league and still went out spent over 70 million in one summer, we have never even spent over that amount in any of your figures.

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  10. Bob,

    I think most football fans would like to see Wenger's approach rewarded. I am a LFC fan but appreciate he gives young talent the opportunity to gain experience despite the constant calls for him to bring in 'big names'. Quick question: You got Marouane Chamakh on a free start of this season as opposed to paying approx 6m last year. Do you think with Chamakh in your team last season that you may have pushed on for the title?

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  11. The point is for my own personal interest.  Comparisons with other top teams appeal to me, so I write about it. Also, it is important accurate figures are out there to stem the tide of false, inaccurate figures routinely spouted everywhere.

    It is important to document the past accurately, is it not?

    If people don't like it, then they are free to ignore this site and go elsewhere, aren't they?

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  12. This seems a contradiction - "however you have not won a trophy in 6 years, as opposed to LFC who won one 5 years ago, and despite our waste of money on rubbish players" - one year difference is hardly an huge difference - certainly not worthy of an expenditure circa £80m more than Arsenals. Add in your failure to qualify for the Champions League last year and I'd suggest success & financial prudency can hand in glove - and oddly, (this I don't like) have become just as important each other (it should always be about trophies solely - but Sky's millions have changed that).

    For the record - I'm an Arsenal fan. No axe to grind and no wind-up, I genuinely hope Liverpool improve because the Premier League needs big sides like Liverpool at the top-end.

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  13. To all the Arsenal fans commenting you should be aware that Jaimie isnt actually a Liverpool fan. These articles of his are wildly inaccurate and are based on his hatred of Rafa Benitez and I can only assume a massive amount of mind bending drugs.

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  14. It might be worth leaving out any transfers that are not in the clubs accounts then?

    Unless of course you want to continue to be "highly amused" by questions of this nature?

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  15. Great work. 

    The other factor to throw in is spending on the stadium.  Player spending is something but Arsenal have had another huge spend on top.  However, the income from property is bringing another low net spend.  As the debts decrease and the extra revenue from matchday, better shirt deal and merchandising kicks in (plus the youth experiment starts generating some massive English talent eg Aneke and Afobe) Arsenal will be in a great position.

    Hopefully the next manager after Wenger will spend the legacy of the last 5 years of pain wisely. 

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  16. Jaimie, I agree that football should be entertaining, but unfortunately sometimes winning trophies involves dogged performances or tactical changes to nullify your opponents.

    Football under Benitez wasn't always drudgery, I remember several exciting encounters in the CL , as well as in the league. Maybe not the weekly entertainment provided by Arsenal but there were moments!

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  17. In 1990 Liverpool were the biggest team in England, with the best squad. Arsenal and United have built better teams since then, Liverpool sat on their hands. Liverpool were poorly managed thoughout the 1990's, to a point were Arsenal and United were ahead of them.

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  18. Patrick,

    I was referencing Shane who claimed that we had wasted millions on rubbish players. I was merely pointing out that they couldn't have been that rubbish considering our recent record in the CL and Premiership. I have nothing against Arsenal either, as I've said i admire their club model. Agree with you on the money point!

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  19. i didn't say i didn't like it or your not accurate but you are comparing us with the two teams who we have tried to outspend to catch up with them, Compare our figures with Blackburn, Newcastle mid 90's, Chelsea in the 00's, City and Spurs in the Rafa times. it will show that we are not the only teams to outspend these two and out of this lot where not the only team to come up short

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  20. Jaimie Kanwar said...
    I would rather watch Arsenal play exciting scintillating football and win nothing than watch the boring drudgery of Liverpool under Benitez. Football is also about entertainment. Well, it used to be.

    -----------------------------------

    so tell us, what do you make of the football that's been on show this season so far??


    and i haven't found you stating this anywhere, but how exactly do you have access to the club's accounts? i've looked at the official websites for Liverpool and Arsenal and don't see a link detailing decades worth of financial transactions....

    can you post a hyperlink to the web address where you got this information, or a point of contact at the clubs who could provide the data?

    i'd very much like to see the numbers for myself, from the people at the club (not to suggest that you're a swindling middleman, but you get the idea)

    ~OSI

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  21. Thats a strange view you have there MnM considering the current situations at both clubs. i think wenger has not failed. in fact he's worked miracles. look at the fantastic squad of young players he's assembled. a new stadium, a new training ground. both considered one of the best in europe. and he re-built the academy. an academy that judging by youth team success has produced the best batch of young players in last 2 seasons.  
    There may not be a trophy, but how many managers could do what he's done to keep us competitive. Mourinho may be considered a genius but look at what he spent at chelsea and inter to achieve what he did. and he plays boring football.
    The great Shankly went 6 or 7 years without a trophy. But what he did was re-build liverpool from the ground up. He built a legacy. Wenger is our shankly

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  22. what you're missing is value of squad at outset and now.

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  23. Yes, I considered leaving them out but I chose not to.  It's funny how every other site on the net constructs entire analyses using just figures published on websites/the press, yet I use a few, and people pick up on it (and ignore 20 years worth of figures gleaned from accounts) Why would they do that?  because they're only interested in trying to discredit me.  it's ridiculous, but predictable.

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  24. This is an awesome amount of research, well played to the dude who did this.

    I'm obviously an Arsenal fan, but have nothing against Liverpool. I must say it always struck me as utterly bizarre that Benitez could get away with demanding ever more money, or saying he was held back by not having enough when he quite clearly wasted massive amounts on dross, no figures were needed to spot that. How much did Benitez spend on full-backs alone?

    You can't deny Benitez was excellent in Europe, but you cant win the league without some creativity and the ability to take the game to sides at home. He never really gave Liverpool that, so it seems from the outside. Plus, he inherited the basis of a very decent side. For all that money he only added Reina, Alonso, and Torres who contributed significantly to what he had when he arrived.  

    Great for the club, great for the fans, but Benitez got away with murder because he won the champions league. That Liverpool side are probably the worst team to ever win it as the Champions league, they were very, very lucky to. Beyond that, can't see how the coach gets credit for Steven Gerrard being superb when it was needed most.   

    You will be much better off when someone with a bit of soul takes over. If you can get a manager with the same vision, passion, and attacking determination as Gerrard and Torres you will be fine. Sadly, the trend is for grinding out results with shit because people are too scared to lose to try and win. 

    Hope there are better times ahead for your club.

    PS - wait until you are paying off a stadium then look at how good wenger has been over the last 5 trophyless seasons. 

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  25. Chief Gooner, I said in recent times ie in the last 6 years Arsenal have not won a trophy. Wenger is a great manager, but he has been at Arsenal is it 16 years? I admire the fact that your team did not dip when you moved stadiums and remained competitive, however legacies are built on trophies not how good your youth setup is.

    I hope that the model he has put in place does mean trophies as football would win, but as an Arsenal fan does it bother you that he has only come close one year to winning the CL? Surely building a legacy involves domestic success as well as European success?

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  26. Diaby Does Gallas5:15 pm, October 28, 2010

    This is the kind of investment model that NESV are hoping to deploy at LFC.  They are looking at getting away from old players on big saleries, who don't cut the mustard, and spend a lot of the time in the stands or on the bench.

    Instead they are going to invest in young talent for big amounts, for young players but players that will have a sell on value.

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  27. Fair point about Chamakh. We badly missed a 'proper' centre forward last year. Van P averages 18 PL games a year(over the last 6 years)- we needed a proper CF playing 4-3-3. If I have to criticise Wenger it is over his lack of pragmatism when it comes to replacing players who he is over loyal to(Diaby/Denilson/Almunia) with a net outlay of say, £5m for each replacement the squad could be even better. He is too tight with Arsenal's money. So yes, I would have preferred Wenger spending £6million on Chamakh, but I would have preferred £10-12m on a goalie! However, we did get him, improved our CBs, Wilshire is coming through and our squad is looking very strong now- we shall see!

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  28. Really fascinating research, confirming what we've long suspected but now laid open for all to see,
    At some point in the future, would you consider doing research on what has happened to clubs who have built and moved to new stadiums? I suspect that this lazy statement "but you've not won anything for x years" actually hides a great deal of real achievement during the years that the Emirates has been built, owned and paid for by Arsenal - not by a sugar daddy, nor by a local council. Trophies would have been nice (and but for a little more luck we could quite easily have had a League Cup, European Cup and one if not two league titles in any case in this 'barren' period). But I do want to suggest that simply remaining competitive, never straying out of top four, always getting to knockout stage of the Champions League etc is still VERY MUCH a MAJOR acheivement when set against the records of other clubs who've built and moved to new stadiums. Hence my question -----

    Thanks again

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  29. Great work there. Just some summation problems, Arsenal's figure in the 90s is 49.1m and in the 2000s is 29.9m..so a total of 1.2m less,nothing major,but will cut down certain other averages by points to be more accurate :p

    As far as MnM goes, good point about football being about trohies, but in the last 5 yrs, you have won only 1 trophy more than us, while spending almost double!
    Won't speak of going further in cups or finishing higher in the league as your whole post was dedicated to winning trophies not being a higher placed loser ;)

    Also don't forget we have a very competitve team currently while there are still many holes in yours, so more money will be needed to rectify that, skewing the numbers more in our favour.

    Also don't forget we have built a new stadium and gone through the 1st 5 year period where the financials are the toughest, and now the stadium will pay for itself and increase revenue and give us more leeway in the market, while if you build a stadium, your outlay and 5 year struggle period is still to be seen.

    Adding these last 2 pts, it shows that being in our tighest times financially and remaking a new team as compared to your normal business activity (well you got bought but that wasn't like stadium building or anything and you still have a major recontruction of the team to do) and the difference is 1 trophy.

    So yes i think we are in a far far better position and will be for many seasons, coz our net spending will not go up by much but yours will. :)

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  30. Thats a strange view you have there MnM considering the current situations at both clubs. i think wenger has not failed. in fact he's worked miracles. look at the fantastic squad of young players he's assembled. a new stadium, a new training ground. both considered one of the best in europe. and he re-built the academy. an academy that judging by youth team success has produced the best batch of young players in last 2 seasons.
    There may not be a trophy, but how many managers could do what he's done to keep us competitive. Mourinho may be considered a genius but look at what he spent at chelsea and inter to achieve what he did. and he plays boring football.
    The great Shankly went 6 or 7 years without a trophy. But what he did was re-build liverpool from the ground up. He built a legacy. Wenger is our shankly
    ===================================
    do you think he would've done the same with 280mil worth of debt on the club? or with owners tapping up his replacement behind his back? or board members leaking internal matters to the press?

    because that's what rafa's had to deal with since H+G. wenger's been brilliant for you lot, but i honestly think the only reason is that he has been backed to the hilt. and i'm not talking about just money, even though the board have said every window that he could buy whoever he needed to, that the money was there....

    rafa had one bad season and got sacked for it. wenger has gone longer than we have without winning a trophy and there hasn't even been a murmur from the board room about reviewing his position - all they have done is given him their unequivocal support.

    the vast majority of managers don't receive anything approaching that, INCLUDING RAFA....

    if he had, we might have had an opportunity to see if last year was a blip (as 5 good years of progress vs 1 bad year would suggest) or if it was an indication of a terminal decline, as people of Kanwar's persuasion seem to think....

    we might have had the opportunity to see the fruits of rafa's work to revamp the liverpool youth setup - you know, bringing kenny back as an ambassador, bringing barca's youth team directors to run LFCs, scouting and signing the likes of pacheco, eccleston, ayala, spearing, kelly, mavinga, dalla valle, kacaniklic, nemeth, shelvey, amoo, etc....kids who have been winning or near winning youth honors for the past few years, and playing influential roles for their respective youth national teams....


    it's a real shame if sites like this are all you form your opinion of benitez from, because as much as kanwar says his facts are irrefutable (even though you can't go and see his data anywhere but filescan sites, certainly not directly frrom the clubs themselves), he only tells a very narrow view of the whole story....

    OSI

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  31. Hi Mark - I take it you've added up the figures in the net spend column vertically?  I used the method used in the accounts:

    Total gross spend (minus) total player sales = net spend.

    On that basis, the figures are correct.

    Cheers.

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  32. I like what I've seen of Chamakh this season. Seems to cause Defenders the type of problems they are not used to playing Arsenal ie quick incisive attackers like Arshavin and Walcott. Good in the air, commits defenders to foul him and holds the ball up well. Gives a challenge to Bendtner to up his game as this is what Wenger wants from him. Wilshere is premiership standard now, imagine what he will be like in 2 years? That is what i would like to see LFC do with the likes of Pacheco and Shelvey, give them more first team opportunities so they become better confident players.

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  33. but you cant win the league without some creativity and the ability to take the game to sides at home. He never really gave Liverpool that, so it seems from the outside.
    ===========================
    highest scoring team in england in 2009, regularly amongst the highest in goal differential, and were well over a year unbeaten at anfield....

    that in mind, i'd say he gave us both for large portions of his reign....no it wasn't every game for 6 years, but it's difficult to expect that frrom someone who's just joined the club/league (wenger being the exception, of course)

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  34. Fair points Mark. In other posts I have stated that Arsenal have done well to still be competitive as well as finance a new stadium. The points I was trying to get across to in my post was in response to the first poster. If all factors are taken into consideration, then Wenger is indeed exceptional and most intelligent fans see this, however utimately irrelevant of finances, all clubs are judged on trophies.

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  35. Hey i came across this article via newsnow expecting something a bit different. Im an arsenal fan and fully appreciate wengers input into our club hes been instrumental in our rise and will play an even bigger part in our success after he has gone. Id just like to say that its refreshing to see others who appreciate his youth first mentality. I definitely feel it would be a shame to see liverpool drop into mid-table mediocrity, despite what many might think i believe hodgson was and still is the right man for liverpool he just needs time and a board that will support him.

    p.s to answer the question about chamakh im not convinced he would have been as effective without pre-season training. and on another note the comment about wages is pretty credible considering we pay our youngsters way above average.

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  36. I'm not worried at all. barca went 5 or 6 years without a trophy early 2000's. we've also had to compete with a strong united, moneybags chelsea and now city. liverpool were competitive too. we don't have a right to win trophies. thats why i like his current attitude to carling cup. we need to win something. these young players need to taste winning.
    i look at the current players, some of the phenomenal talents coming through and the good financial position and i am not worried at all. we are going in the right direction and its only a matter of time before we win something.
    you miss my point about shankly. he never won a european cup. but would liverpool have been in a position to win those cups in the 70s and 80's if there was no shankly. i dont think so.

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  37. <span>During the 80's when Liverpool were dominant of English football, we couldn't see any kind of change that was going to happen. We were challenging for trophies and United were in the depths of despair. Then the Premier League came along and commercial revenues dwarfed prize money. You could get commercial sponsors for millions from abroad and sell merchandise for millions to the Far East and beyond due to the commercial nature of football. When that happened, United had the people in place to take advantage of that whilst Liverpool remained a family run club with little or no commercial awareness. We are now paying for that and also that we have a stadium in a highly populated residential area with no ability to build the concrete monster that United have on an industrial park in Manchester. More money allowed you to look to sign better players, pay higher wages and afford the ones that you already had. In terms of transfer spending, so much of United's recent success has generated from one golden era of youth players. To pay for players of similar stature and ability as Giggs, Beckham, Neville, Neville, Scholes, Sharpe and Butt would have cost somewhere in the region of todays market of about £130m (Giggs £30-35m, Beckham £30-35m, Scholes £30-40m, Neville £12-15m, Phil Neville £5-6m, Sharpe £10-12m, Butt £7-8m). Whilst 3 were shipped on slightly younger, United had 4 players there who were world class who did not have to be paid for. You look at Utds team later in the 90's and 2000's and those 4 players were fixtures in their team. They were then able to spend their money on supplementing their team. Liverpool had a youth academy that produced McManaman, Fowler, Owen, Gerrard and Carragher but we were not able to retain the services of all added to the fact that when Dalglish left, the squad was ageing and mainstays of our team were no longer the players that they had been. United were settled in 4-5 positions from 95 onwards. We also did not have the benefit of selling some of our players such as McManaman for the revenues that United generated from young players who cost them little or nothing and were sold on for big fees. Beckham went to Madrid for £25m, McManaman and Owen went for a combined £8m because the club allowed their contracts to run down rather than shipping them out when they were still valued highly. McManaman nearly left for Barca for £12m and went for nothing, Owen went for £8m when figures were quoted before as high as £30m. </span>

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  38. Dare I say it you've not got much to lose by playing quality youngsters. I suppose the short term issue is to make a decision about your 'superstars'. Torres may not be up for a project that may well take a few years to bear fruit. It might seem sacrilegious but cashing in on Torres and bringing in 4 10-15million players who are maybe younger, promising and crucially prepared to buy into a 3/4yr project could be the way forward. Do your new Yanks have any money?

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  39. They will be taking a pragmatic approach to transfers, which I agree with. I think there will be funding available for the first team but the long term aim is to buy younger players, and integrate into the first team. We have a good youth coach who worked with Barca players such as Messi, Iniesta and Xavi, so I'm hoping to see great strides in this area. I would like to keep Torres, but if a player doesn't want to play for us, I'm happy to see him go for a decent transfer fee.

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  40. MnM A VERY INTERESTING PEICE.HAD IT INVOLVED A COMPARISON BETWEEN MANURE & THE ARSENAL THE COMMENTS WOULD HAVE UNDOUBTEDLY ENDED IN  ABUSE-HOWEVER,SUCH IS THE RESPECT BEWEEN OUR TWO GREAT CLUBS, WITH THE VAST MAJORITY OF FANS,AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION IS TAKING PLACE..THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT.MUCH APPRECIATED.. 

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  41. Cheers KG. A lot of good points made by all. Winds me up when decent debate ends in a slagging match!

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  42. Interesting analysis, although I'm not sure you can deduce that a club has been mis-managed solely on the basis of transfer fees. Another major factor is player salaries. whilst I have not gone through a set of a club's accounts I think they usually identify playing staff's salaries separately.

    My understanding of the Arsenal model, which is purely as a fan is that, whilst the club does not pay top-end salaries the younger and less high profile players are better paid than at most other clubs, resulting in higher overall expenditure on wages. Having said that I have little doubt that Arsenal is one of the financially best run clubs in world football.

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  43. I agree, and what is wrong with paying a bit more for younger players salary wise? If you get the player for next to nothing, then in the long term you would save yourself paying an inflated transfer fee as well as a high salary. Eg Anelka came from PSG for a nominal fee of 500,000K and inputted into Arseenal winning trophies, and then was sold for 22m. This is a great bit of business in my opinion.

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  44. MnM I think you're correct. And it is maybe the reason for the massive gross spend over the decades - at each new attempt to get back to the pinnacle we get a new manager, rebuild the entire team, and that costs money. In truth, of course, we did recoup a substantial amount too, which I am still convinced is significantly different to Chelski and ManC. Before you accuse me of being one of the "net-spend brigade", which I most certainly am not, I just want to suggest that jump-starting a team is increasingly difficult with the entrance of big money into the game. Hence the many LFC fans who were hoping for an Arabian take-over - the idea that we could but a new team may have sounded enticing. I agree that we need some consistency, and this is precisely why I think Woy is the wrong man - but that is another story.

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  45. ChiefGooner - good point, well made. I wonder though, if such loyalty is so valued by clubs and owners these days. I also hope that we see more Wengers and Shankleys in the future, and less Morhino's and Pelegrinos - super-men who breeze in for a season, win (or lose) some tropheys and then move on. I personally think that Rafa had a long term goal, I think that yes, he spent a lot, but was getting towards something, but left before he could get there. Maybe a failed dream, but I personally believe he had a long-term vision. But I am not a net-spend appologist :)

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  46. Bob N7 - a great suggestion, IMO. It would be hard to let him go, but if its a new project then as you say, not much to lose right now. While you cant always trust the papers, it appears he may want out anyway, so £30m in Jan, and two or three young £10-£15m players would be a great idea. Maybe then Rafa would have left us something from the dissapointment of last year after all.

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  47. I don't know why you draw attention to Arsenal not winning a trophy in 6 years, and Liverpool winning in the last 5 years, it's hardly a difference.

    If you compare Arsenal and Liverpool over different periods you get different results. Let's add the positions of the clubs in the league together with the lowest score being the most succesful over that period:

    In the last

    1 Season: Arsenal (3 vs 7)
    2 Seasons: Arsenal (7 vs 9)
    3 Seasons: Arsenal (10 vs 13)
    4 Seasons: Arsenal (14 vs 16)
    5 Seasons: Arsenal (18 vs 19)
    6 Seasons: Arsenal (20 vs 24)
    7 Seasons: Arsenal (21 vs 28)
    8 Seasons: Arsenal (23 vs 33)
    9 Seasons: Arsenal (24 vs 34)
    10 Seasons: Arsenal (26 vs 37)
    11 Seasons: Arsenal (28 vs 41)
    12 Seasons: Arsenal (30 vs 48)
    13 Seasons: Arsenal (31 vs 51)

    I am sure eventually Liverpool would overtake Arsenal, but my point is that there are different ways to measure success, some of which point towards Arsenal, and other point to Arsenal :)

    Can someone else do the same with number of trophies won? 

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  48. this comment log is the reason why i support arsenal and have the highest of respect for the kops :)
    as for debating purposes :P
    yea i guess not winning anything over the last 5 years has been dissapointing and to have it shoved up your face by man utd and chelsea fans isnt helping either sighhh... but the chavs cant go on spending forever..if i m right..even the russian is looking for a wage cap to be introduced and the mancs...well we'll know in 2017 when their loan term comes to an end...
    but i guess looking at what mr. wneger has done to the club... he knew that once the invincibles lost that it was time for a new approach hence the wait... since than we saw every single one of the invincibles leave.. the piece started with cesc and now we have a great first team...out depth is also reasonable and the youth system has been flourishing.. and like i said yes it is painful to not win a cup and yes the club will be judged not by their financial power or how beautiful their football is... but i'll wait..i know that it will all bear a fruit... rome was not built in a day ..

    i hope i have not strayed off from the topic too much...i just got a little excited thats all..
    well good luck to u guys the kops ( my brother and mom and liverpool supporters sheeshhh :P )
    seems like u guys finally got a beak against fat sams team..and i m glad u beat him! :D
    cheers to all!!!

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  49. There's no doubt Souness, Evans and Houllier wasted a lot of money. However, I'm sure this is another of your anti-Benitez pieces so it should be pointed out that even if Benitez spent more than Wenger, the fact is that Liverpool under Benitez had more success than Arsenal did at the same time... so there was a concrete gain from spending more money. I'm not even going to mention the amount of money that needed to be pumped into the team by the end of the Houllier era

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  50. Great job with your research and time you've put into this. Nice to see someone doing some worthwhile blogging rather than the usual uninformed-yet-opinionated gibberish.

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  51. The Roy Hodgson Brigade8:26 pm, October 28, 2010

    Can we have more Gunners fans posting comments, they make 1000 times more sense than some of our LFC fans...

    I have to be honest, I actually doubted Wenger on many occasions but the man is a genius. Just look at the squad you guys have. Arsenal play sublime football and wish I could say the same about our beloved team.

    I really hope Roy is given a shot at backing the cake, there is alot of work ahead of any manager who wants to be at the helm at LFC. Our squad isn't the worst but the players we have are not good enough and fact is it aint winning the EPL. Carra & Stevie G who have carried LFC ever since the Houllier days arent going to be around forever, it will take time for us to get back on top but with NESV I can only see a good future ahead!!!

    YNWA 

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  52. I am sorry this has happened to your club you guys have to be really depressed

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  53. Crikey Jamie I just asked for this yesterday and you've got it done. Good work. Although there hasn't overall been a net deficit by Arsenal/Wenger they've spent a lot lot less and overall probably achieved more in most peoples opinion. Not just the trophy count but three premier leagues, not to mention beautiful football.

    Personally I would never swap that 2005 European Cup for anything else even three premier league titles but I suspect most LFC fans would, so in that regard few can argue Wenger has achieved more by spending a lot less.

    Good work again Jamie. I used to see this site as one of Hicks nasty pieces of work but I couldn't have been more wrong. I love this site now for one reason and one reason only, ironically Rafa's favourite word - FACTS. Facts you wouldn't see elsewhere.

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  54. Crikey Jamie I just asked for this yesterday and you've got it done. Good work. Although there hasn't overall been a net deficit by Arsenal/Wenger they've spent a lot lot less and overall probably achieved more in most peoples opinion. Not just the trophy count but three premier leagues, not to mention beautiful football.

    Personally I would never swap that 2005 European Cup for anything else even three premier league titles but I suspect most LFC fans would, so in that regard few can argue Wenger has achieved more by spending a lot less.

    Good work again Jamie. I used to see this site as one of Hicks nasty pieces of work but I couldn't have been more wrong. I love this site now for one reason and one reason only, ironically Rafa's favourite word - FACTS. Facts you wouldn't see elsewhere.

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  55. Crikey Jamie I just asked for this yesterday and you've got it done. Good work. Although there hasn't overall been a net deficit by Arsenal/Wenger they've spent a lot lot less and overall probably achieved more in most peoples opinion. Not just the trophy count but three premier leagues, not to mention beautiful football.

    Personally I would never swap that 2005 European Cup for anything else even three premier league titles but I suspect most LFC fans would, so in that regard few can argue Wenger has achieved more by spending a lot less.

    Good work again Jamie. I used to see this site as one of Hicks nasty pieces of work but I couldn't have been more wrong. I love this site now for one reason and one reason only, ironically Rafa's favourite word - FACTS. Facts you wouldn't see elsewhere.

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  56. Crikey Jamie I just asked for this yesterday and you've got it done. Good work. Although there hasn't overall been a net deficit by Arsenal/Wenger they've spent a lot lot less and overall probably achieved more in most peoples opinion. Not just the trophy count but three premier leagues, not to mention beautiful football.

    Personally I would never swap that 2005 European Cup for anything else even three premier league titles but I suspect most LFC fans would, so in that regard few can argue Wenger has achieved more by spending a lot less.

    Good work again Jamie. I used to see this site as one of Hicks nasty pieces of work but I couldn't have been more wrong. I love this site now for one reason and one reason only, ironically Rafa's favourite word - FACTS. Facts you wouldn't see elsewhere.

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  57. Crikey Jamie I just asked for this yesterday and you've got it done. Good work. Although there hasn't overall been a net deficit by Arsenal/Wenger they've spent a lot lot less and overall probably achieved more in most peoples opinion. Not just the trophy count but three premier leagues, not to mention beautiful football.

    Personally I would never swap that 2005 European Cup for anything else even three premier league titles but I suspect most LFC fans would, so in that regard few can argue Wenger has achieved more by spending a lot less.

    Good work again Jamie. I used to see this site as just playing devils advocat before but I couldn't have been more wrong. I love this site now for one reason and one reason only, ironically Rafa's favourite word - FACTS. Facts you wouldn't see elsewhere.

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  58. To make a fair comparison of team spending you really should combine transfer spending and annual wage costs. I think you'll find that what Arsenal saved on transfers they have spent on wages.

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  59. To make a fair comparison of team spending you really should combine transfer spending and annual wage costs. I think you'll find that what Arsenal saved on transfers they have spent on wages.

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  60. To make a fair comparison of team spending you really should combine transfer spending and annual wage costs. I think you'll find that what Arsenal saved on transfers they have spent on wages.

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  61. To make a fair comparison of team spending you really should combine transfer spending and annual wage costs. I think you'll find that what Arsenal saved on transfers they have spent on wages.

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  62. To make a fair comparison of team spending you really should combine transfer spending and annual wage costs. I think you'll find that what Arsenal saved on transfers they have spent on wages.

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  63. What a fantastic piece of work, well done to the author.
    I really feel sorry for LFC, it  feels like the fans have been shafted by a host of different people. The club appears to have been financially mismanaged for quite some time, and when the recession hit, it hit Liverpool hard and fast.
    If NESV are going to follow the Arsenal model, and you LFC fans are patient, I honestly think you will reap the rewards.
    As for Rafa, I think he was an excellent manager for your club, but a disaster in the transfer market. For a club that was becoming hindered financially, this was never going to work.
    I think Roy H should be fully backed and supported, he has taken on a difficult job at a difficult time, and has always been dignified and professional. He deserves at least a season to get it right.
    I sincerely hope LFC is back where it belongs soon, and I believe it will be.
    The best of luck for the rest of the season, and keep the faith!

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  64. Jamie if your accounts are so accurate then why have you got

    06/07....liverpool spend 69.9m
    07/08....liverpool spend 69.9m

    but in your article Rafa,s spending under H and G on 23rd October 2010...which also has got accurate accounts in there you have got the following

    06/07....liverpool spend 57.4m
    08/07....liverpool spend 69.9m


    now which one is the real figure Jamie

    some body is not being as accurate as they claim????

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  65. good article, can you do something similar but on the amount of players bought by the clubs, as Arsenal have always been quite stable and we dont sell and buy too often, but liverpool seem to swap every season half a team, which is quite an important handicap to consider.

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  66. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=piruthZqw9z7KPOQuZ0P6Gg

    The above link will show all transfers under Arsene Wenger to date. It may be of some interest.

    Arsene loves sell-on clauses but refuses them when he signs players by the way.

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  67. Well this is where I find you hypoctrical Jaimie. Arsenal and United have been successful over the last number of years for one reason "continuity". They hired a good manager and they stuck with their man through thick and thin( Fergie 24yrs, Wenger 14). After 6 years all Fergie had won was an fa cup and a few crappy cups, he could easily have been sacked but united stuck with him and got their just rewards. Arsenal are currently in a 6 year drought yet they didn't sack their manager either. You praise these clubs from top to bottom, yet you were one of the people calling for Rafa's head after 6 years of breaking records at our club, becoming a massive dominant force in Europe and generally improving year on year in the league. Why? Because of one shit season?

    Liverpool will never have a period of sustained success again like Arsenal/United if we continue this fu*king stupid policy of sacking managers in the middle of their 2yr/5yr/10yr/ plan. Roy will be gone in Jan if he lasts that long. what next... bring in rijkard..not working out after 2 yrs...ok fu*k it bring in pellegrinni...oops torres has had enough and gone back to spain, gerrards retiring , so is carragher...Pellegrinni asks..well who have we got coming through? Eh dunno give Frank Rijkard a call maybe he had a plan before we got rid. You get my point?

    I remember when benitez was sacked and you were making the point that Houllier brought us so far, Rafa took us on further and the next man will take us further again as if it is all part of the evolution of our club. Yet the two clubs you highlighted in the last couple of posts prove that continuity is the key to success.

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  68. It's funny that Liverpool fans think they have achieved under Benitez and like to argue about how many years since we won a trophy.

    The only difference between Arsenal and Liverpool is a bog average Liverpool fluked their way to a CL final and won on penalties against a stupid Milan side that fell asleep when 3-0 up in the same season that they FINISHED OUTSIDE THE TOP 4. Arsenal reached the same stage and 1 mistake meant we were down to 10 men for practically the whole game and for most of it looked like the better side.

    The sad truth is Liverpool have got "close" to the league once or twice in the past 20 years, but have never really looked like winning it because the squads have always been below par. For the past 20 years Liverpool has been like Arsenal of the past 5 years, although Arsenal were very, very close to the league in 2008 and in my opinion we were the best team in europe from August-January that season until injuries and morale went to pieces.

    I don't care that it's five years since we won a trophy, I care it's six years since we won the league because the FA cup doesn't count for much because any team can win/lose a single game on any given day. Portsmouth have won a trophy, it doesn't mean they're any good. Even Porto have won the champions league.

    The problem for Liverpool is you've been selling every season and buying rubbish.

    Aquilani, one of the world's most famously injury prone players for Xabi Alonso.  Mascherano replaced by Meireles and Poulsen. Two very effective world class players replaced by 3 less effective players for basically the same money. The difference between Arsenal and Liverpool is when we started replacing good players with bad players 5 years ago or so we did it on the dirt cheap and now those are the players that are making us look like a good team again.

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  69. MnM you crack me up! Arsenal haven't won anything in 6 years, but liverpool won something 5 years ago. That make Wenger useless and Benitez good? The more you repeat it, the more DUMB you will realise you are.

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  70. I am Arsenal and thanks for comparison, To me only one club matters in premiership apart from Gunners it Liverpool. I grew up watching them with awe in 80s until one night after so  much grief of Hillsborough we scored last minute goal to league from Liverpool grasp. of course they won it again last in 1991 but that was beginning of end of Shankly era to me cause What Wenger is doing is same thing. 

    Bob Paisley, Fagan, Dalgish all had easy jobs cause Shankly laid the foundations for two decades of unbelievable football played at such pace no team could keep with Liverpool. I am saddened to witness how Liverpool have suffered under those two morons,But let not forget Manchester United have spent 1 billion credit to be successfully something Liverpool did for less, While same with Chelsea and newcomers Citeh. Arsenal have won a record 10 FA cup,13 League titles and few league cup,Minor Euro Cup for a club which is always punching above their weight it incredible and now we are up there with elite on merits rathers than on money or other factors.

    Wenger is rightfully the top manager according to FIFA standings and measuring on basis what he achieved with minimal funding is amazing. I hope Liverpool come back strong and take their rightful place in History.  

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  71. No, it is you failing to read properly.

    The other article is Benitez's spending under Hicks and Gillett only.  Since they bought the club in feb 07, any spending from july 2006 and feb 2007 has been deducted from Benitez's total because, obviously, any transfer activity during that period WAS NOT UNDER H+G.

    57.4m  = Benitez spending from feb 2007 till July 31 2007 (i.e. under H+G)

    Perhaps if you spent more time thinking and less time being so desperate to prove me wrong, you might understand differences like this.

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  72. It's funny that one Arsenal fan could have read through all these posts and thought Liverpool fans are on here having a go at Arsenal. But since you started..."fluked our way to a final? really? fluked our way past Leverkusen 6-2 agg was it? Juventus and Chelsea. Then of course fluked our way past Barca, PSV and Chelsea to reach another final 2 yrs later, next season fluked our way past Inter 3-0 agg and ARSENAL 5-3 agg to reach the semi's, next season we got so flukey we beat Real Madrid 5-0 agg! Liverpool finished above Arsenal in 05-06, 06-07 and 08-09.And can I also remind you Arsenal should have finished in 5th position in 05-06 were it not for Spurs mysterious flu on the last game of the season! By the way Aquilani is fit as a fiddle and playing great, unfortunately Woy thought the squad needed weakening so shipped him out on load and Mereiles is a really good player but I wouldn't expect someone who has obviously had their head up his hole for the last 6 years to notice that.  

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  73. MnM, which is worse? Not winning a trophy or not qualifying for CL? You decide

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  74. Spot on Murph, it is important to note that spurs,sunderland,villa,newcastle have all spent lots of money but havn't played regular champs league like liverpool have been doing untill recsently.

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  75. Great job on the comparative report. Its one scenario that is worth considering. Of course there will be a number of others. i feelthat in the modern world of football business, eventually it will be down to club finances. No matter how successful or how many trophies a club wins, finances will come to the forefront. Barca's woes at the end of last season is very relevent; having to take over E 100 million to pay wages!! If they could not raise that amount, its the end of a highly talented and carefully assembled team.
    With the benefit of hindsight, I think the difference between Arsenal and Liverpool's management in the light of new challenges posed by super rich owners was that one chose to develop and the other tried to compete for players. Its a total mangement decision;not just one person. Even at the time of Shankly, he shose to develop the Liverpool way and culture and the rewards were ample for a number of years after. Wenger is trying to emulate this. Same as Ferguson, he develop rather than go on a wholesale buying spree. At certain time in the recent Liverpool history they were buying too many players at one go, sometimes out of desperation, Aquilani?

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  76.  People don't ignore the "99% worth of figures that are irrefutable<span>". They acknowledge tham as just that. It's obviously that the figures that are speculative will raise eyebrows. Your defensive attitude to this question is odd to say the least. </span>

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  77. these figures are incorrect and aimed at proving liverpool as not a failing company and nothing else.

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  78. I think the major problem the Kop had was allowing Benitez transfers of his choice.As good as the guy was tactically he had never bought a player in his life before.It was forgotten he came from a continental set up where the manager is a trainer and has no input over transfers except identifying the position he wants filled. His majority transfers it was clear were not done with much thought players like Gonzalez, Jasico were good players and talents but they were always meant for a 2nd tier team like say Aston Villa. For a club with liverpools history u had to go for the cream of the crop which u did but only once or twice like for Torres. I think by the time he realised what he had done he had already spent over 100m odd on players, u cant buy 5 players every transfer window and sell them in the next because u dont think they fit, player ammortation charges will only increase.. He tried for a short term fix and it came back to bite him in his back side. You cannot develop an academy in 2 years unless u have the power of a Chelsea who have thrown money by the bucket loads to setup an academy what would normally take over 6-7 years.. The benitez reign was always going to end in one way and it was very clear to see.. As much as he did win a couple of trophies i think it was in a period where both United and Arsenal were rebuilding and were not at their strongest. You had Gerrard at his absolute best and he really carried you on his shoulders to a couple of the trophies specially all the way to the CL finals and the FA cup. Too many average players and no scouting system, i mean look at the Babel  purchase he was linked to Arsenal by the papers and in a sheer moment of panic Liverpool bid almost double of his value, without even realising that his best position was a Right Forward or a second striker and u had Kuyt playing that same role. IMO u have only yourselves to blame for the mess you are in, and havent been helped by appointing Hodgson he is a manager who will always err on the safe side and his signings have proved that.. How can such a big club not have  a decent left back, winger,striker and a defensive mid fielder.. You have 2 players who want to play in the attacking mid role but u have no one to do the cleaning up job behind. In Mereilies u have the perfect Box to box player all u needed was to retain Aquilani and Mascherano instead u sold a creative box to box player and ur sweeper and bought Poulsen who wasnt wanted at Sevilla and at Juventus a player who was a sub at Sevilla which is like the Aston Villa of Spain is good enough for Liverpool even if as a squad player is a sad day. There is no short term fix but Rome wasnt built in a day.

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  79. i'm not sure my respect for liverpool is all it used to be.  i used to like liverpool's hard but fair approach. robbie fowler trying to deny a penalty at highbury stands out. but under benitez, liverpool became known for cheating.  carraghers handballs and penalty box fouls that never seeemd to be punished, gerrard's diving and hypocrisy, kuyt's mate the referee, etc etc.  sadly i find myself almost pleased about liverpool's current plight, as it seems to be a case of 'karma' working promptly and visibly.

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  80. I think someone mentioned this before, but you need to add about 20m+ a year outgoings in wages at Arsenal, so net spend has been less by liverpool.

    Arse buys cheap, but takes time to bring a player up to speed.  All this time we are paying top wages, so it's not as clear cut as people first think.  Just look at Vela, cost nothing, but has earnt about 12 million in wages, yet contributed next to nothing.

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  81. HoBo, my response was to a point that was made about LFC, not an attack on Wenger or Arsenal. I don't deal in extremes. Wenger is a great manager, his CV speaks for itself. In the same light Benitez can boast La Liga wins, and European success. You have read that this is an attack on Wenger it is not. Personal insults are puerile as well! My educational background refutes your DUMB accusation!

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  82. In this era of financial pressure it appears that not qualifying for the CL has a bigger impact and causes fans to celebrate this like a trophy win. I was raised in an era when winning trophies was all that mattered to a club and it's fans.

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  83. What would be interesting is to see club figures for the top clubs in the 70's and 80's. Where teams like arsenal, man u etc spending more to catch liverpool when we were truly great.
    Arsenal, have a magnificent manager, an empire builder and legacy maker. Yes the foundations are there for the next generation to win everything. Liverpool won more after the empire builder left(paisley, pagan, dalglish). Who takes over from wenger - to reap the rewards? Tony adams, bergkamp?

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  84. What would be interesting is to see club figures for the top clubs in the 70's and 80's. Where teams like arsenal, man u etc spending more to catch liverpool when we were truly great.
    Arsenal, have a magnificent manager, an empire builder and legacy maker. Yes the foundations are there for the next generation to win everything. Liverpool won more after the empire builder left(paisley, pagan, dalglish). Who takes over from wenger - to reap the rewards? Tony adams, bergkamp?

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  85. so Jamie who do you think is a better manager special one like Mourinho or a special coach like Wenger?

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  86.  I think one of  the reasons why Arsenal and Man United have spent more wisely was that both clubs have kept their managers for many years and have long term strategies.  As an Arsenal fan I am not so sure abot United, but at least Arsenal has had a clear long term vision - new stadium, new training grounds, new academy, new system of headhunting and bringing up youth - all these things were achieved on a strict budget with no sugar daddies and unsustainable debts.  So when people say "6 years without trophies" they do not understant that Arsenal has had hugely succesful six years of building a bigger club and make it sustainable and competitive in the long run.  That is why so many Arsenal fans are cool about trophies - they know that the basics are right - it needed time and money. To expect to win a lot of trophies on top of that would be foolish. But thophies will come. With new FIFA regulations when a club can only spend what it has earned, many EPL clubs will find it hard to ajust. Arsenal will not even need to ajust, they have been doing it for years. Liverpool, unfortunately,  have not had this luxury of stability and long term vision.  Every new manager wants to win there and win now and they spend accordingly. They know they are wulnerable - the big club must win. Only chosen few have the luxury of time in football these days, namely Sir Alex and Arsene Wenger.

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  87. u forgot eduardo {sold}-6.5m
    jay simpson{sold}-2m

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  88. I believe the point you are trying to make is that Liverpool have spent way over the odds in their long-term strategy to  build a team that can play in the Championship.

    The fruition of those dreams will occurr this year. Well played.

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  89. Jaimie, they last few debates about Rafa's and LFCs transfer spending has made it all the more obvious to me that we need to add salaries to gross and net transfer money spent when looking at transfer spending. I have come to appreciate your valid point that Gross spend is important, but I strongly feel that gross spend and net spend AND salaries are interlinked and that none of the 3 factors alone can give a good picture of a manager's performance in the transfer market. I have been under the impression that for the last 20 or so years LFC have spent more money than most if not all premier league teams, but that our salaries were relatively lower than the top teams like Manu, Arsenal and more recently Chelsea.

    You're welcome to tell me to piss off, but what I'd love to see is a report showing gross spend and {net spend + salaries} for LFC, Manu, Arsenal and Chelsea since say 1990 as you did above. i.e. a report as above, ideally showing all 4 teams, but salaries included in net spend figure, and sales not required - or for ease of viewing, 2 reports, the first just gross and the second just net + salaries.

    I feel that an amount paid for a player can mean nothing without knowing his salary. For example the press makes Joe Cole's acquisition out to be a masterstroke but if we're paying him about 6 mill a year, over 5 years we will have paid him 30 mill, and we may even have paid him a sign-on fee on top of that! This means over 5 years Mereiles, for whom we we paid 11.5 mill, will cost less, because I'm certain his salary is no more than 40-60 grand a week although I am just guessing.

    To go on, if salaries are low, it could also explain the need for a high turnover of players at Liverpool, cause let's face it, to keep a player happy you have to give him a high salary and/or lots of playing time. Crouch for example (from what I've been made to believe) didn't get either, so it would be impossible to keep him (happy) at Liverpool. This would justify our need for high Gross and Net transfer expenditure and prove that the model centering around higher salaries and lower transfer expenditure is more suited to stability and success, as shown at Manu at Arsenal. Anyway I'm making too many assumptions, would love to see a report on salaries.

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  90. That's because the press hated Benitez, and hence they only showed and expressed the bad and the ugly.

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  91. As an Arsenal Fan,I shud say your analysis is good but greately undermine what Wenger has achieved.

    Compared to other coahces Wenger had to deal with New Stadium move which should also be taken into account.
    The Satdium construction endured the relegation of many clubs like Derby Southampton etc.
    In that case,I think Wengers record will remian unbeaten forever.

    Hope to c Liverpool fighting out for Premierhip with the old Top4 again...

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  92. I agree Paul. There was little or no mention of the fact that when Fergie's grand daughter/relative was in a car accident Benitez sent him a letter expressing her speedy recovery. It didn't fit in with their portrayal of him.

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  93. Very insightful research on the net spending.

    However one thing to be borne in mind is that Liverpool have had 6 managers in the 20 years while we have had only three in about 25 years- George Graham and Arsene Wenger (Rioch was just there for a year onlyl)

    New managers always want to replace players with their own and that is fair enough.

    Arsene has done a fantastic job with what he has spend but I think more credit needs to be given to Benitez.

    He may have spent more but he needed to replace a lot players bought by Houllier and may have bought some average players but also brought in some world class players like Alonso,Mascherano and Torres.

    Plus he delivered a Champions League in 6 years so he was not all that bad...

    Please check my website :

    http://arsenalarticles.webs.com/

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  94. Good points AA. I remember the way Arsene was treated by some of the press when he arrived in the UK. I remember there were even accusations as to his sexuality! Seems ridiculous now but true. Benitez got similar harsh treatment, perhaps due to his personality. It can't be because they are foreign as the press loved Mourinho, and show respect to Ancelotti.

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  95. well liverpool are not a 'spurs' you are the best club in the country! so You would expect some success during that time.

    I think you only finished above us twice, and dont forget we have moved into a new stadium during that period.

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  96. As an Arsenal fan I found this post extremely informative and interesting; thanks very much. Hope to see you guys get yourselves sorted out and back in the top 4 lickity-split. There's all sorts of riff-raff and unsavory characters sniffing about the neighbourhood at the moment >:o

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  97. I went through the comments on this article and most people seem to have made the assumption that what Arsenal didn't pay in transfer fees, they are paying in wages. Nothing could be further from truth than that. Arsenal have had a strict wage structure for the last 5-6 years to accompany with their long term goal of building the Emirates and becoming self sustainable. The wage structure was the reason the Invincibles were broken up so quickly and also the reason why Ashley Cole, Gilberto Silva, Flamini and Gallas left. According to the Financial Reports from 2009, Arsenal had a total wage bill of 104 million pounds compared to 103 million pounds for Liverpool.  For anyone that wants to see the comparative financials of all premier league teams from last season, here is the link:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/19/premier-league-finances

    Arsenal model is that every expenses were paid off through revenue generated from within the club. The clubs total debt has been reduced from 290 million pound in 2009 to 135 million in 2010. The club have paid off all the debt from the Highbury Square appartments which means that any revenue generated from this venture will go straight as profits from now on. 


    As an Arsenal fan, if you were to give me a choice between 6 or 7 years of trophyless seasons and winning trophies but at the expense of the long term solvency of the club, I would pick the first one definetely. But, hey I am a student of Finance and Accounting on top of a Gunner!

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  98. Thanks for your comments :)

    Great site too!

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  99. The numbers that support and watch our team's games seems to suggest you're in the minority and people have found it entertaining, at least entertaining enough to tune in for games repeatedly.

    Personally, I’m usually too nervous or tense during games to care about the entertainment - it's only after the game when I am watching it back that I might begin to care about the fact we only scored three instead of six (if only) or all our goals weren't as a result of five one-touch passes at 100 miles an hour and then finished with a cheeky back-heel (or similarly wow-inducing play ala Barcelona!).

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  100. The numbers that support and watch our team's games seems to suggest you're in the minority and people have found it entertaining, at least entertaining enough to tune in for games repeatedly.  
     
    Personally, I’m usually too nervous or tense during games to care about the entertainment - it's only after the game when I am watching it back that I might begin to care about the fact we only scored three instead of six (if only) or all our goals weren't as a result of five one-touch passes at 100 miles an hour and then finished with a cheeky back-heel (or similarly wow-inducing play ala Barcelona!).<span>
    </span>

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  101. It's called transparency Jamie, deal with the question and don't read between the lines to suggest Wartnick has an agenda - maybe he wants to see where you got the figures. 'Shock-horror' he's doing exactly what you do and investigating your claims, you should applaud him for it.

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  102. As an arsenal fan, can i just say this is a top site. And yet again, another great article providing an in depth insight into the clubs finacnes, that other fan sights just put to one site. Top stuff.

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  103. I wouldn't underestimate the fairly xenophobic nature of the British media, you only have to see the way they are going out of their way to find excuses for every stupid thing said or done by Roy while pouncing on anything they could from Rafa.

    Continuity is definitely something that gets overlooked in any transfer comparisons since it should be cheaper for a manager to maintain his squad than for a new guy to come in needing to make changes, both Arsenal and Man Utd deserve a lot of credit for holding onto quality managers for a long time once they got them and it is a shame LFC didn't do the same with Rafa.

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  104. Thanks a lot mate !

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  105. Its true that the media went for Rafa last season. I really think last season was an unlucky one for Benitez but was he not minutes away from going to the UEFA cup Final? And had he gone to the final , you could bet your house on them beating Fulham.

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  106. I only want to 'chip in' and say what a good balanced debate from both sides,Rather then the usual slagging off,baiting, and insults on most sites.
    nice one!

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  107. So Gillett and the other one spent loads, but were let down by Benitez. They were not the problem it seems......

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  108. Guide to this website  
     
    1) Get used to his constant favourite dig at Rafa Benitez & his Supporters  
     
    2) Never question him or he will label you Rafa Lovers/Supporters even if you're not  
     
    3) Hold an original copy of his articles because he will edit anytime to render your comments useless

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  109. Jaimie,

    Is there anywhere online where one can see the actual accounts (especially for 2004 - 2009) in their entirity, apart from paying for access from Companies House? The club seems to have deleted them from the lfctv site and some intense googling hasnt found any of them (apart from 08-09) either.

    I ask solely because when discussing this (and the Utd, and the net spend) article earlier I was told that you had invented the little snippets posted up here.

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  110. People will do anything to try and discredit me.  Made up the snippets?!  Absolute nonsense.

    Email me and I'll send you a copy of the one of the accounts (2008-9?) - Let me know which one.

    editor@liverpool-kop.com

    Also, can you please post the link where this discussion took place please.  Cheers. JK

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  111. Jaimie,

    Its here:

    http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/326661-Liverpool-FC-2010-2011-season/page32

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  112. Wow!  I thought I'd seem some deluded, ignorant stuff in my time but that takes the biscuit.  Are you 'agricola' on that site?  if so, thanks for being so level headed and producing some superb counter arguments.

    This is the problem we have to face with some fans.  They just simply refuse to accept the truth, even when it is factually proven and staring them in the face. 

    His arguments are nonsense - Just because the Telegraph posts some figures doesn't make them correct.  That's the point.  I sincerely dounbt they checked the accounts; why would they? They don't expect people to question them.

    It doesn't matter what you say to people like that, they will always come up with some other excuse.  The idea that I created the snippets myself (!) is laughable.  And even if you showed him every single set of accounts going back to 1990, he would probably accuse you (or me) of manufacturing those too!

    Fighting idiots like that with facts is the best thing we can do.  I'm not a member of that site but if you could post something inviting him to come to this site and debate the issue that would be great. You've already defeated him with facts anyway, but if he's so sure of himself, let him come here and argue his point.  I will produce full accounts from any year he wishes. 

    I suspect you will just be met with more abuse though ('I'm not going on that c*nts site! etc), which will just show that he has no real argument.

    This kind of ignorance and lying is rife.  On the LFC.tv website, they regularly lie about me. Any poster who does not agree with the status quo on there is apparently me in disguise.  And the disturbing thing is that so many people are just willing to believe *anything* someone says without question.

    I signed up yesterday and challenged some posters there to enter a debate about the club's finances (they'd been posting how I was lying/made it up etc).  Since then, deafening silence so far.  No one has take up the challenge, which tells it's own story.

    Anway - thanks again for your superb arguments on that site.  Much appreciated :)

    JK

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  113. Thanks Jaimie.  Personally I am a blue myself (which by some peoples logic will by me agreeing with you turn you into one as well) but I do admire your site, not because it goes against the prevailing wisdom but because the vast majority of what you post here is independently verifiable.

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