Last season, I illustrated (with evidence) how Dirk Kuyt's regular barren spells had (historically) had a negative impact on Liverpool FC's attacking effectiveness. This season, it's more of the same so far, and whilst he's admitted he's 'sorry' for LFC's bad form, that's just not good enough, from him or Liverpool's other senior players.
Dirk Kuyt's supporters work overtime trying to convince everyone he deserves his place in the team because he's so 'hard-working', has 'endless stamina' and gives his all for the team. I have nothing against Dirk Kuyt - he is a solid professional and has, at times, been a valuable player for Liverpool. However, that doesn't change the fact that when the going gets tough, Kuyt regularly offers next to nothing.
Here is why (and this is a point I've made regularly over the last 3 years): Every season, Kuyt has a tendency to go through one or more barren spells, where he contributes next to nothing to the team's creativity and becomes a passenger. And more often than not, these spells coincide with a bad/indifferent run of form at the club. Basically, when the team is not playing well, he is seemingly incapable of rising above it and making a personal impact.
For example: in the last 28 games for Liverpool (all competitions), Kuyt has managed only 3 goals and 3 assists. In that time, the club has failed to win 61% of games.
Here is a list of examples:
As you can see, every season since Kuyt arrived there have been long periods where he has contributed very little as an attacking force. Should we just accept that kind of return because he works hard? It's all well and good having a right midfielder who runs 30 miles every game, but where is the *consistent* end product?
For me, this is the key issue. Just imagine if we'd had a right-winger over the last few years that scored/created goals consistently, and did not regularly go through mammoth barren spells? A few extra goals/assists here and there would have been very valuable, would they not?
What is a right midfielder's primary purpose? Surely it is to attack and score/create goals..or am I wrong about that? Tracking back and defending is all well and good, but Kuyt is (or is suppose to be) an attacking player. That means a more consistent level of goals and assists is required. And it's not as if Kuyt doesn't get the chance to contribute - he starts almost every game (!) and has plenty of time to play himself into form
For the last 28 games, the plain fact is Kuyt has not been doing his job as an attacking player. A few more goals/assists here and there from one of Liverpool's most senior players may have turned draws into wins and defeats into draws. This obviously would have helped the club, especially this season.
Yes, every player goes through rough patches, but just look again at the table above: that is a concerning number of rough patches! And that table does not include Kuyt's many 5-8 game barren spells throughout the last 4 years (My criterion was only to include spells that lasted more than 10 games).
And this season again - when our senior players need to stand up and be counted, they're nowhere to be seen. And it's not just Kuyt - the same goes for the likes of Glen Johnson (supposed international class defender, but in reality, an utter defensive liability); Fernando Torres, Joe Cole, and to a lesser extent, Steven Gerrard.
People can call for Roy Hodgson's head all they want but he - and the fans - should be expecting a greater level of performance from experienced international/Premier League players like Kuyt.
The barren spells have to stop - Kuyt, Johnson, Cole, Torres et al need to start earning their inflated salaries.
Apologising after every game is not good enough; actions speak louder than words.
Get out on the pitch and JUST DO IT.
Jaimie Kanwar
Dirk Kuyt's supporters work overtime trying to convince everyone he deserves his place in the team because he's so 'hard-working', has 'endless stamina' and gives his all for the team. I have nothing against Dirk Kuyt - he is a solid professional and has, at times, been a valuable player for Liverpool. However, that doesn't change the fact that when the going gets tough, Kuyt regularly offers next to nothing.
Here is why (and this is a point I've made regularly over the last 3 years): Every season, Kuyt has a tendency to go through one or more barren spells, where he contributes next to nothing to the team's creativity and becomes a passenger. And more often than not, these spells coincide with a bad/indifferent run of form at the club. Basically, when the team is not playing well, he is seemingly incapable of rising above it and making a personal impact.
For example: in the last 28 games for Liverpool (all competitions), Kuyt has managed only 3 goals and 3 assists. In that time, the club has failed to win 61% of games.
Here is a list of examples:
As you can see, every season since Kuyt arrived there have been long periods where he has contributed very little as an attacking force. Should we just accept that kind of return because he works hard? It's all well and good having a right midfielder who runs 30 miles every game, but where is the *consistent* end product?
For me, this is the key issue. Just imagine if we'd had a right-winger over the last few years that scored/created goals consistently, and did not regularly go through mammoth barren spells? A few extra goals/assists here and there would have been very valuable, would they not?
What is a right midfielder's primary purpose? Surely it is to attack and score/create goals..or am I wrong about that? Tracking back and defending is all well and good, but Kuyt is (or is suppose to be) an attacking player. That means a more consistent level of goals and assists is required. And it's not as if Kuyt doesn't get the chance to contribute - he starts almost every game (!) and has plenty of time to play himself into form
For the last 28 games, the plain fact is Kuyt has not been doing his job as an attacking player. A few more goals/assists here and there from one of Liverpool's most senior players may have turned draws into wins and defeats into draws. This obviously would have helped the club, especially this season.
Yes, every player goes through rough patches, but just look again at the table above: that is a concerning number of rough patches! And that table does not include Kuyt's many 5-8 game barren spells throughout the last 4 years (My criterion was only to include spells that lasted more than 10 games).
And this season again - when our senior players need to stand up and be counted, they're nowhere to be seen. And it's not just Kuyt - the same goes for the likes of Glen Johnson (supposed international class defender, but in reality, an utter defensive liability); Fernando Torres, Joe Cole, and to a lesser extent, Steven Gerrard.
People can call for Roy Hodgson's head all they want but he - and the fans - should be expecting a greater level of performance from experienced international/Premier League players like Kuyt.
The barren spells have to stop - Kuyt, Johnson, Cole, Torres et al need to start earning their inflated salaries.
Apologising after every game is not good enough; actions speak louder than words.
Get out on the pitch and JUST DO IT.
Jaimie Kanwar
http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2007/10/comment-policy.html
ReplyDeletePlease follow the comment policy. if you ignore it, don't blame me if your comments are removed.
Mate i've been saying it for years: the guy isn't a right midfielder. I used to hate him. Really get angry with his lack of ability to cross, dribble, technique on the ball, beat a man etc etc the list goes on, but then I realised its not his fault. How effective would Torres be as a right midfielder? He wouldn't. He needs to be in the box. He can't play up top alone because he isn't clever enough to create his own space like Torres can so he needs to be in a partnership. I think Torres and Kuyt would be a great set up, but we'd need the wide service. We need two new wide men. I've been shot down plenty of times for suggesting, for the time being at least, we get Bentley in on loan and try and prize Brunt away from WBA. Everyone says not good enough and only in Championship last season. I just tell them to look at Adam Johnson and then say they isn't good enough.
ReplyDeleteThis is something that disappointed me about Hodgson. I expected him to get rid of the (obviously) talentless hacks like Kuyt and Lucas. I mean, if Kuyt is so highly rated, why I don't we see clubs vying for him in every transfer window? There can be no excuse for a player of his level to have such a woeful first-touch. Losing the ball then running around, arms-flailing doesn't make up for it.
ReplyDeletePersisting with Kuyt and 4-2-3-1 have been the major problems so far with the Hodgson-reign. Roy should start clamping down on nonsense and start playing Pacheco and Babel (who was promised more chances before Jan-window), drop popular players like Cole and Kuyt if he has to and get the team functioning.
I'd like to see:
Reina
Johnson/Kelly-Skrtl-Agger-Konchesky
Babel-Mereiles-Gerrard-Jovanovic/Cole
Pachecho/NGog-Torres
If the wide-men are a problem,
Reina
Johnson/Kelly-Skrtl-Agger-Konchesky
Poulsen
Mereiles-Gerrard
Cole
Pacheco/Babel-NGog/Torres
Jaimie, have you heard a rumour that LFC has been sold and an announcement is to be made 2moro?
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion this is a bit of a 'non-article' really. I agree that players, particularly senior ones, should be having a long hard look at themselves. But who wouldnt agree with that.
ReplyDelete*Here is why (and this is a point I've made regularly over the last 3 years): Every season, Kuyt has a tendency to go through one or more barren spells, where he contributes next to nothing to the team's creativity and becomes a passenger. And more often than not, these spells coincide with a bad/indifferent run of form at the club. Basically, when the team is not playing well, he is seemingly incapable of rising above it and making a personal impact.<span>*</span>
Basically you are saying that every now and again, the Liverpool team plays badly, so does one of their players. WOW, what a revalation. Seems pretty obvious to me that the form of a team generally coincides with the form of many of the players in that team, and vice versa.
Hardly a revelation. Hardly worthy of an article?!
In my opinion this is a bit of a 'non-article' really. I agree that players, particularly senior ones, should be having a long hard look at themselves. But who wouldnt agree with that.
ReplyDelete*Here is why (and this is a point I've made regularly over the last 3 years): Every season, Kuyt has a tendency to go through one or more barren spells, where he contributes next to nothing to the team's creativity and becomes a passenger. And more often than not, these spells coincide with a bad/indifferent run of form at the club. Basically, when the team is not playing well, he is seemingly incapable of rising above it and making a personal impact.<span>*</span>
Basically you are saying that every now and again, the Liverpool team plays badly, so does one of their players. WOW, what a revalation. Seems pretty obvious to me that the form of a team generally coincides with the form of many of the players in that team, and vice versa.
Hardly a revelation is it? Hardly worthy of an article?!<span>
</span>
scarey - please don't waste space posting about if the article is 'worthy' or not. Debate/discuss the issues or don't post at all. The comment policy is clear on this.
ReplyDeleteIf you have ever played football Jamie its often not as easy as just going out and doing it. often the harder you try the poorer you become. what you need is amanger who helps you to relax, play you own game and takes the pressure off you. Hodgson doesnt do this, Rafa never did. the last manager we had that took the pressure off his players was dalglish.
ReplyDeleteYes, because in order to understand the mysterious complexities of football you have to have played the game.
ReplyDeleteSorry, that's just not true.
We're not just talking about one run of games - we're talking about regular barren spells *every season* since he's been at the club.
That is a problem, no matter how you try and dress it up. And given Kuyt's experience and international status, we should expect, no, DEMAND more of a creative impact from him, especially in times like now when Liverpool need players to step up.
Kuyt never steps up when the going gets tough, and that's not good enough.
I'm prety sure I just done that. the so called 'issue' you raise in this article is bout Dirk Kyt going missing when liverpool are playing badly.
ReplyDeleteThat is a non-point, as in any team, the mere fact that the team is playing badly most usually points to the fact that some/mostor all of those players are playing badly, doesn't it?
So I am debating the issues raised in your article, the only problem is that it is a non issue. the article is called Dirk Kuyt and the curse of the Barren spell, pt 2, but HOW MANY other players in the current LFC team could this article be named after? LOTS, according to their current form.
My point is that singling out Dirk Kuyt in this way is pretty pointless when there are many other ppl in the team playing equally badly or worse.
I read the posting rules before posting my original comment, it didnt mention that disagreeing with you was against site rules.
It is not a non-point. You just ignore the long list of barren spells every season since he arrived; over 120 games with little end product. That is not something to be dimissed.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is when the going gets tough, Kuyt never delivers. We need players who are going to deliver when things are bad. Steven Gerrard has managed that, as has Torres (when he was fit).
And I am not singling out Kuyt - I am going through each senior player at a time (who I think is under performing). last week, i wrote about Glen Johnson; now it's Kuyt; next it might be Cole.
I'm doing this because it's not solely Hodgson's fault - his senior players are not letting him down, and that' not good enough.
Now - if you disagree, then debate the issue. I'm not interested in whether you think this article is a non-issue. if you disagree with the points, argue against *the points*.
Kuyt is now 30 years old and his career as a professional probably more than a decade long. Why hasn´t he spent some of that time improving his ball skills? Everybody says he is such a hard worker. Apparently not off the field. If he was, he would have trained and practised first-touch end technique until he was good at it. At 30, and at this level, it is unbelievable that he still cannot control the ball properly. It is also a mystery why gets so many chances in the team. He is not good enough för LFC. But with some decent ball skills Kuyt could have been a great player. But he is satisfied with being regarded as a workhorse. What a waste.
ReplyDeleteHi Jamie. I agree what you said here.
ReplyDeleteBut give him some credit. He was used as a wide player which he isn't. Hes been good linking up with Torres upfront. I think you would agree with that
Shouldn't it be about time the players we have play their proper positions and not have the likes of Carragher (or Agger) at LB or Kuyt at RM? I don't think anyone can really judge Kuyt until he's played in his proper place upfront, like someone mentioned earlier, how effective would Torres be at RM?
ReplyDeleteO.K. let us look at your so called points shall we?
ReplyDeleteIll take the first line of your statistics, Feb to May 06/07. Kuyt 17 Games, 4 Goals, 1 Assist.
In those 17 games, Kuyt only started 14. in those 14 games we won 5, drew 4, lost 5. So, the first thing of note is that the team as a whole were hardly setting the world alight at this time.
In those 17 games, we scored 26 goals as a team. Now lets imagine that the responsibility for scoring goals falls equally at the feet of all 10 out field players ( it doesn't but bare with me), on that basis you could expect at least 2.6 goals from each person. REALISTICALLY though, you expect more goals from midfielders than defenders, and more from strikers compared to midfielders.
For the sake of argument lets assume that we expect no goals from our defenders, and that the responsibility falls evenly amongst the 6 midfielders/strikers (it doesn't I know, we expect more from strikers than midfielders but bare with me), that means that we have 26 goals divided by 6 which = 4.3 goals per person.
In reality, we should expect our strikers to score much more than midfielders, so maybe just 2 or 3 goals in this period, for a wide midfielder such as Kuyt, could be considered him doing his fair share? In any case Kuyt scord 4 goals.
Consider that 2 of those goals gave us a 2-0 win over Wigan at home and thus 3 points. Another of those goals was the winner against Reading at the Madejski, giving us a 2-1 win after coming off the bench, and thus 3 points. Far from going missing he won us 6 points at a time when league form was sketchy at best.
Pls dont get me wrong, I'm not really trying to defend Kuyt, just trying to inject some reality into the debate.
The point is, you can use stats to prove or disprove virtually anything. The conclusions you have drawn are not supported by ALL of the facts. Liverpool fans.. use your brain, dont believe everything you read.
Senior players are letting Roy down? Do you think he has lost the dressing room, is this the Hodgson effect?
ReplyDeleteSenior players are letting Roy down? Do you think he has lost the dressing room, is this the Hodgson effect?
ReplyDeleteSenior players are letting Roy down? Do you think he has lost the dressing room, is this the Hodgson effect?
ReplyDeleteI think that he gets waaay more credit than he deserves for his defensive work on the wing anyway, but offensively Kuyt offers little to nothing apart from the ability to pick up a rebounded effort every now and again. He can't beat a man, get to the byline or deliver the ball on the run so I agree with Waarthog in that kuyt has none of the attributes necessary to be a quality winger. However, in his two recent games where he has actually been given a free role through the middle (with Meireles inexplicably taking his turn on the wing) his offensive threat has been equally negligible.
ReplyDeleteThe likes of Babel, Benayoun and Riera would never have been given the opportunity to deliver the amount of <span>consistently</span> poor performances that Kuyt puts in. Hodgson was supposed to bring about a return to common sense in team selection and an end to favoritism, but with his public denouncement of his "B Team", and Kuyt's immediate reinstatement to the team on his return from injury, things seem to have gotten even worse!
in our team Kuyt is a luxury player - in a team with Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo & Raul in attack you you can see the sense in utilising two defensive midfielders or a limited attacking talent such as Kuyt. However, in a defensive team (as ours undoubtedly is) that just has a couple of players focusing on attack, we can't afford for one of them to be Dirk Kuyt.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, he is afforded the most freedom to attack out of everybody in our team, as he has no defined attacking role, so should be carrying even more responsibility to consistently deliver in the final third than anybody else, not less! Instead all right handed duties are given to the rightback, whether that be Arbeloa, Johnson, Carra or Kelly, and Kuyt is given a free ride as long as he continues his aimless running around the pitch act
That Hodgson refused a big transfer offer for such a limited player, especially considering his age and rapidly declining transfer value, was the first big mistake that he made at LFC...
not often i agree with you but i do over kuyt. There comes a time when honest endevour and being a busy player isnt enough. Skill and creativity must play a part. Kuyt isnt the only one though, Glen Johnson isnt as good as HE thinks he is and Poulson should get the next plane back to Italy ( I will help him pack ). It has been commented on before during houliiers time and rafas reign and I will comment again, if you have a squad of players and you sell one or two you should only do this if the replacements are a least as good as the ones you are selling or getting rid of hodgson seems to be falling into getting poorer average players in to add to the mediocrity that is already there. Also we need a replacement for Carra
ReplyDeleteMohan/Patrick - Meireles has been our right midfielder for whatever reason the last few games, with Kuyt taking his preferred place through the middle, and he has been typically rubbish...
ReplyDeleteI have to agree about DK. For a Dutch International he has a shocking lack of technique. He tries to make up for it by his sheer endeavour, but at this level it isn't good enough. If you simply want speed and stamina, Hodgson might as well sign Haile Gebresalassie<span><span>.</span></span>
ReplyDeleteSpot on!
ReplyDeleteIf i am roy, the first player i would dump is DK.But then you'd probably have problem selling him cos no top/big clubs would want his services.Only then you realize that top managers elsewhere don't rate him at all...cos he's not an attacking threat,no technical ability,not a clever player and zero creativity which translate to nothing even if he runs up n dn the pitch tirelessly.To summarize things,he's not going to give you gd no. of goals/assist that is needed at the highest level.It's the single worst flop Rafa have ever bought considering he plays him in almost every game and has been his favourite player(gerrard/reina/carra apart).This is the reason why LFC has been performing badly cos there is no attacking flair upfront and he's being disruptive coming into other player's position by defending/from midfield creating a vacuum at the final third where only torres seems visible.Rafa sees him as a v gd attitude player and someone who works hard for the team which is the downfall of LFC cos the end product is not what you want from an attacking midfield/striker.
ReplyDeleteStolen this from the rag too have we?
ReplyDeleteWell lets see if the following Rafa SIGNINGS with regards to attacking players which have been left for Roy are able to send shivers down the oppositions spine...
ReplyDeleteMilan Jovanović :-D
Maxi Rodriguez :-D
Ryan Babel :-D
Dirk Kuyt :-D
I will leave it for the naysayers to add the only worthy attacking SIGNING to the list. :-D
U think all this players not good enough for Northampton & Blackpool and both team that won us have better squad that send shiver down our spine?
ReplyDeleteMy point was that after Rafas six year tenure Roy is left with no width or natural abilty in this squad. How different things might have been if Roy had at least two players down the wing who were able to run defenders riot, create chances and score some of their own.
ReplyDeletePoint out any of the player which I have mentioned that are able to make defenders look like ballet dancers.
I posted similar in the Glen Johnson article but there really is more to football than black and white. An assist would be awarded if you play the pass that leads to the goal but there are other contributing factors such as making space for others, maybe playing a pass into space for the eventual recipient of the assist.
ReplyDeleteAt this time I think there are players more worthy of criticism the Kuyt. If everyone stepped onto the pitch with his attitude we wouldn't be in the bottom three. I'd be inclined to say when he is going through a 'barren spell' he is still contributing much more than others who don't offer the hard work (that should be a minimum when pulling on the shirt) he does.
Hi Jaimie,
ReplyDeleteSorry, but this time I have to disagree with your comments on Dirk Kuypt. As several other people have pointed out, there are, unfortunately, three or four other players more deserving of criticism than him.
Knowing that you thrive on controversy, let me throw a little extra bone into the pot. I have supported Liverpool for over 50 years and have to say that Torres is amongst the top to or three strikers that we have ever had. Having said that, I now pose the question - is he a luxury we can no longer afford? The guy has had some serious injury problems, but has also had an unacceptable amount of of relatively minor ones. The current groin injury being a classic example. I would absolutely hate to see him go, but in the hard commercial world of football, would it not make economic sense to sell him for 30 - 40 million and buy two or three more robust replacements. The result against Blackpool was a bummer, but I think I was more despondent at the fact that Torres was out of action yet again. Regretfully I think that Kochesky is in the same mould, although the jury is still out assessing his potential and of that of Poulsen. I whole heartedly agree with your comments that at this stage of the season we should be troubled by fears that we cannot improve our league position, and I cannot believe that there are gloom and doom merchants, purporting to be Liverpool supporters, who already have us down as relegation candidates!!! Maintain the faith, 'cos in a week's time when RBS do the decent thing, and pull the rug on those Yankee Carpet Baggers, there will be a whole new dawn.
So why didn't he buy some in the summer. He bought defensive and they have been oustanding... Get a new scapegoat.
ReplyDeleteSo why didn't he buy some in the summer. He bought defensive and they have been oustanding... Get a new scapegoat.
ReplyDeleteHi Brian
ReplyDeleteLets hope when the yanks are gone that it will end our problems. We will still have to contend with those fans who will take the new owners to task should Roy be given more time at the club. Where does it end if them?
He is not my ideal manager but he should be given a crack at the whip. Even if it is only till the end of the season. You never know, maybe he will be able to sign some decent natural ability, attack minded players and get rid of some more of the mediocre ones who shouldnt be wearing the red shirt.
Well Guest, a certian argentine ahole decided to jump ship so what was he supposed to do and seeing that Kuyt was turned into a "winger" and made the signing of Cole and only had a few months to make signings and probably did not have much funds to play with because of the club being sold then what was he expected to do?
ReplyDeleteHi Brian
ReplyDeleteLets hope when the yanks are gone that it will end our problems. We will still have to contend with those fans who will take the new owners to task should Roy be given more time at the club. Where does it end with them?
He is not my ideal manager but he should be given a crack at the whip. Even if it is only till the end of the season. You never know, maybe he will be able to sign some decent natural ability, attack minded players and get rid of some more of the mediocre ones who shouldnt be wearing the red shirt.
Kuyt is a forward. He has been played out of position for years. End of
ReplyDeleteRafa realised that Kuyt's professionalism and team ethic would allow him to be used in the RM position and that his natural fitness could be used to benefit the team / Rafa's tactics
Kuyt was signed as a striker, having scored 70+ goals in c. 100 games for Feyenoord. Imagine another former Dutch leading scorer, Van Nistelrooy, being asked to play on the wing....... Ridiculous
His technique / acceleration leaves a lot to be desired but it's his speed of thought that gets him his goals, brilliantly illustrated by his goal in World Cup 2010, when he anticipated that Elia's shot might hit the post while defenders were on their heels
He is a gem of a lad, one of the few who actually seemed hurt by last weekend's defeat so let's all give him a break
Anyway, we should get back to bashing the owners again, trying to get rid of the board now, what utter prats!!!
I have never really understood Jaimie's position on the current owners. Does Jaimie accept that interest repayments are stretching the club financially as previously stated by (soon to be former Chief Exec) Christian Purslow? <span></span>
You really are a cryptic bloke
same shit differnt day!
ReplyDeleteseen this all before last season aimed at rafa by many on tyhis forum
now it aim it at his signings.
i swear if pachenco gets a run hell be drilled with toothpick obsesion in every aspect.
its clear the person/s churning this out here will never have an understanding of playing the game we love.
where ever the likes of kuyt and simmilar players are they will allways be first on the tean sheet due to thier attitude
<span><span><span>Yewo</span><img></img></span></span> comment above is spot on and qualified
what amazes me about kuyt is hes dutch and he actually has the over my dead body attitude! not many dutch players have that,
we lack depth in many areas, its staing the same old things again and again, why attack individuals when its obvious the qulaity is so thinlly spread.
lookin at poorly performing players look no further than our captain - he sucked last season and still not on song this,
also kuyt gets 9 goals last term same as gerrard!
bears thinking abaout when u rember kuyt doesent play in his fav position nor takes pens.
far to early to point fingers at individuals anyway.
i fear more smoke and mirrors like this nonscence to hide the fact we face a growing cancer off the pitch
we face a nasty future we must stick together
We know that Kuyt's barren spells coincide with when the team as a whole is not playing well. So why is it not that the team's poor form contributes to his lack of goals? I think each player reacts differently to the team not playing well as a group. Someone like Torres will look to take advantage of more long balls forward, create goals out of nothing. Gerrard will look to drive forward harder himself from midfield, just go straight down the guts and almost put the ball in the net with pure willpower. Both of those ploys have risks and don't always work. Kuyt instead falls back to help his team keep structure, be more effective defensively and keep possession. Unlike deciding to just go solo that actually does always help the team, it's a guaranteed result. Clearly you'd like him to take more risks, your rational being that attacking players should be the ones taking risks. No doubt had he done that he might have netted a few more goals but surely it is beyond question that he would also have left the team short defensively and created more pressure in other areas.
ReplyDeleteI would say that if there was some other identifiable factor here then maybe we'd have a more interesting discussion. Is there some aspect of Kuyt's game that truly illustrates poor form rather than a simple change in tactics? I don't see one, all I see is a player who chooses to help his team mates rather than sit in attacking positions waiting for someone else to stop the opposition and move possession forward. It's entirely sensible that when this happens he has less chances to get in goal scoring positions. That's not at all because he's playing poorly but instead because he's making up for the rest of the team not doing their jobs well enough.
Simon - My position on the owners has always been consistent and clear, however, it has bee (deliberately) misrepresented.
ReplyDelete* I refuse to exaggerate/manipulate the truth to put the owners in a bad light. That's what 99% of fans do, and it's wrong. It might achieve the aim of making them look bad, and it may serve an agenda, but I prefer to be fair. Yes, even with them. That doesn't mean I support them, it just means I try to be fair.
Examples:
* Arguing that the spade in the ground comment was not a lie (it clearly wasn't - where is the evidence it was?!)
* Arguing that LFC is not responsible for debts accrued by H+G (The club IS NOT; holding companies are, and the club is insulated. Just because I argued this, I'm accused of being a H+G stooge etc. The fact I'm correct doesn't seem to matter).
* Arguing that LFC does not pay the majority of interest accrued via loans (Again, this is correct: LFC pays approx 10m interest a year. It does NOT pay 40m/110k a year, which was the lie peddled by the press and fans in a bid to make the situation seem worse.
* Acknowledging that H+G have done some good stuff too (Improved commercial side of the club; give Benitez more money to spend than any other manager in LFC history etc). Whether people like it or not, H+G have done some good. That doesn't outweigh the bad, but it's a fact.
And on and and on...
If I was like everyone else, I'd be posting stuff lying about the level of interest payment' constantly moaning about the 'spade in the ground comment; lying and exaggerating about anything related to them just to make them look bad.
I treat everyone the same, whether it's a player, the manager or the owners. Everyone deserves to treatedt farily. I was the same way with Benitez too until 2007, when I my fears about his appointment started to come true.
And re interest payments stretching the club - that is not strictly true; Purslow is plaing a political game; he wants H+G gone, so it's in his interests to play up the grave nature of the situation. The club is not in financial difficult - the interest burden is 10m a year, which is not a huge figure when you consider that pre H+G it was in the 4-5m range for prior loans.
The club has posted record profits every year since H+G took over; additionally, the Standard Chartered deal has kicked in now, which give us an extra 20m a season. The club's finances are fine.
There are a lot of flaws in this argument.
ReplyDeleteBetween Feb-May 06/07 he actually only started 13 of 17 games and he scored 4 goals. That almost a goal every 3.25 games. In that period we lost 5 games. They were against Barcelona in a leg of the last 16 of the CL, against Chelsea in the first leg of the semi final of the CL, AC Milan in the final of the CL. The other were Man Utd and Newcastle. There is no shame in losing to Man Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona and AC Milan. We won 8 games in that period and 4 draws. So those 17 games that Dirk was involved in included the final stages of the CL, the hardest cup competition in the world where we played Barcelona (twice), PSV Eindoven, Chelsea (twice) and AC Milan. We also played Man Utd and Arsenal in that period.
This alone highlights the problem with just looking at stats rather than the context. Hand on heart is there anything wrong with losing legs to Barcelona and Chelsea? Is there anything that wrong in losing to AC Milan in the Champions League final. Or to Man Utd who went on to win the league.
Between Oct-Feb 07/08 Dirk only started 12 games. Of the others he was involved in as a subtitute he played a total of approximately 154 minutes (this is based in the average of 3 minutes added time to each game he was involved in). More importantly he actually scored 4 goals in that period not 2. So your stats of only 2 goals in 21 games is way of the mark. It was actually 4 goals in 12 starts and 154 minutes as a substitute. and in that period we won 10 games, drew 9 and lost 5. He was a late subtitute in 3 of those draws, coming on on 69 minutes, 86 minutes and 75 minutes respectively. And a late subsitute in 1 loss and didn't appear in another loss. So in 5 out of the 14 draws and losses in that period he was barely involved. Again, without the context your stats are very flawed.
March-May 07/08 was a bit of a barren spell for him but as a team we won 10 games out of 14, drawing 2 and losing 2. The 2 losses were to Chelsea in the 2nd leg of SF of the CL at Stamford Bridge and to Man Utd at OT. The 2 draws were to Arsenal at the Emirates in QF of CL and Chelsea in the SF of CL. So his barren spell didn't have an effect on the team. In fact we were pretty good at that stage so your argument that Dirk's barrens spells coincide with indifferent or bad runs doesn't hold here.
In Aug-Sept 08/09 Dirk was only involved in 10 games not 12. And in that period we didn't lose a game, winning 6 and drawing 3. So although Dirk may have only scored once we had a pretty good run not losing in 9 games. Again your arument is flawed.
Nov-March 08/09 Dirk actually scored 4 goals NOT 2. It was a barren spell and it did coincide with a indifferent spell for the team but that season as a whole he was decent, with 14 goals and 10 assists in all competitions, which is a decent return. I believe that was only 3 goals less that Wayne Rooney. Not bad for a right midfielder. Same assists as Ashley Young and more than Lennon. But forgetting all this, this season was the best season for Liverpool in 20 years, amassing 86 points, 2nd in league, scoring over 100 goals. So although Dirk had a barren spell, the team played very well throughtout the season so again your argument doesn't really hold up.
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The only time your argument stacks up is in the 2009/10 season and so far this season but even then there are errors in your argument. Firstly, from Sept-Nov 08/09 Dirk scored 3 goals in 11 games NOT 0. As we all know the 09/10 season was a bad one, and there were many reasons for the poor performances; the manager, most of the players, injuries throughout the season etc. So to pick out [...]
Well said Gary. Don't expect a reply from Jaimie. He never replies when you have taken the time to respond with a well researched and balanced argument.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the response
ReplyDeleteIs there really a significant difference between the club servicing a loan directly vs club profits being used to pay the loan via the parent company? I'm very glad that LFC is in no way responsible for the loan if it was to default but it doesn't really change the bottom line in day to day terms. G+H have made poor choices that have resulted in the club increasing it's own debt and seeing less of it's own profits. Arguing that technically it's not the club's debt is a bit pointless.
ReplyDeleteI thought everyone was rubbish for the past few games. As for kuyt whether he fits into Roy's team/play still remain to be seem. Kuyt fits into Rafa play, we push high we press more, we make opponent make mistake in their own half, where the 2nd ball falls mostly back to our own players that why you see our goals distributed evenly among the attacking players if i am not wrong. And kuyt is useful when we lose the ball he tread back n defend.
ReplyDeleteI used to feel the same way about Kuyt, but I've come to appreciate his contribution. It's not only his tireless effort, but he reads the game very well, and creates space and chances - he's a very clever player. Besides, if he was that crap, why would Hodson get angry with a 12-15 mill bid for a 30yr old and ask Rafa to stay away? Plus he was one of the main players who took Holland to the final of the WC IMO. Have u ever noticed Torres's or Gerrard's attitude towards him? They seem to respect him highly - Torres's goal against West Brom springs to mind.
ReplyDeleteThe horrible truth is we look worse without this crap player. Maxi is one of the most useless rightmidfielders I have ever seen. I'd like to see Amoo given the shirt. For all souness' faults he gave Rob Jones, Matteo, Redknapp, Hutchison, Fowler, Mcmanaman and Harknss a chance from the off (even though he didn,t have a flipin clue what to do with them). Hodgson in a word is BORING. More boring than Rafa. I know for a fact that all our England internationls will start every single game which is Pathetic. Drop Carra and Johnson NOW!!!
ReplyDeleteThere's no proof that top managers did not enquire about him
ReplyDeleteI do agree that Roy did not have some of the players he want for his "tactic". But before he join liverpool, he should have known not much fund is available and have to make do with the current players. A manager with 35yrs of experience should be able to find a tactic that suits our style of play and maximise it but what he did after take over is all negative. Negative conferences, "unexplained tactic", marginalise the squad. I dont see Evans, houllier or even rafa so outspoken about the squad when they took over. So is roy only a 442 guy? I seems gerrard indiscipline in CM becoming more n more obvious under Roy
ReplyDelete<span>Agree, you don't need to have played the game to understand the "complexities" of football. obv proven by success of managers like, Mourinho, Wenger and Benitez ect.</span>
ReplyDelete<p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>As for kuyt not being creative enough, esp when the going gets tough.</span>
</p><p><span>yeah, theres debate there, but -</span>
</p><p><span><span><span>you should take some factors into consideration, which I think you have not. Because you have </span></span><span>oversimplified</span><span><span> things before, without also focusing on the tactical side.</span></span></span>
</p><p><span>Kuyts qualities as a player, are dependent on the teams way of playing/tactical setup and performance. Hes strengths, obv are his intelligence, harrying, hard work, off the ball movement, and delivery. </span>
</p><p><span>Hes at his best, obv when the teams plays well, esp when team implements benitez's high tempo possession based football. </span>
</p><p><span>Thats the type of football, we will NEVER see under Hodgson- the opposite.</span>
</p><p><span>It's obvious that he doesnt have the flair/skill to open up a game, on his own. I mean, he can be v good, when hes getting involved in the attacking build up play, linking up, but when expected to "beat" a man, and whip in a cross, it wont work. When Hodgson plays him on the right, he plays him as a true "right winger", a position where you'd expect more individual flair ie "beating a man, and whiping in a cross" </span>
</p><p><span>Thats one of the main reasons, its not working out for Kuyt this season so far.</span>
<span>Benitez had the sense to play him on the right, as an AM, in a more advanced position, and he did that very well, when the team played well, and for holland at the world cup. </span>
Also remember he has delivered in important games, you cant forget that. Important games, are exactly when the "going gets tough"
And also dont discount, how his harrying has lead to lots of chances in the Rafa days.
I hope you are consistent, in the way you criticise all players, judging players from a consistent standard. What about Gerrard last season? He was under par, and played in an important role.
I'd also like to make the point, that Hodgsons negative tactics don't suit ANY of the players. Gerrard , Meireles, Agger ect
Torres esp, He had one of the (if not the)highest goals to minutes ratio, every season under Benitez. They way Hodgson has used him, as a hold up man, does not suit his game, and he will continue to struggle.As Carra said, he hasnt got much service this season
You may have thought Roy for Rafa was a positive step, but you are mistaken, it is a MASSIVE step backwards. And the players will continue to be shackled under Roy's tactics.</p>
<span><span>
ReplyDelete<p><span><span>Agree, you don't need to have played the game to understand the "complexities" of football. obv proven by success of managers like, Mourinho, Wenger and Benitez ect. </span></span>
</p><p><span> </span><span></span>
</p><p><span>As for kuyt not being creative enough, esp when the going gets tough. </span>
</p><p><span>yeah, theres debate there, but - </span>
</p><p><span>you should take some factors into consideration, which I think you have not. Because you have oversimplified things before, without also focusing on the tactical side. </span>
</p><p><span>Kuyts qualities as a player, are dependent on the teams way of playing/tactical setup and performance. Hes strengths, obv are his intelligence, harrying, hard work, off the ball movement, and delivery. </span>
</p><p><span>Hes at his best, obv when the teams plays well, esp when team implements benitez's high tempo possession based football. </span>
</p><p><span>Thats the type of football, we will NEVER see under Hodgson- the opposite. </span>
</p><p><span>It's obvious that he doesnt have the flair/skill to open up a game, on his own. I mean, he can be v good, when hes getting involved in the attacking build up play, linking up, but when expected to "beat" a man, and whip in a cross, it wont work. When Hodgson plays him on the right, he plays him as a true "right winger", a position where you'd expect more individual flair ie "beating a man, and whiping in a cross" </span>
</p><p><span>Thats one of the main reasons, its not working out for Kuyt this season so far.
Benitez had the sense to play him on the right, as an AM, in a more advanced position, and he did that very well, when the team played well, and for holland at the world cup.
Also remember he has delivered in important games, you cant forget that. Important games, are exactly when the "going gets tough"
And also dont discount, how his harrying has lead to lots of chances in the Rafa days.
I hope you are consistent, in the way you criticise all players, judging players from a consistent standard. What about Gerrard last season, where we missed 4th by 7 points? He was under par. If your gonna talk about last season, mention him.
I'd also like to make the point, that Hodgsons negative tactics don't suit ANY of the players. Gerrard , Meireles, Agger ect
Torres esp, He had one of the (if not the)highest goals to minutes ratio, every season under Benitez. They way Hodgson has used him, as a hold up man, does not suit his game, and he will continue to struggle.As Carra said, he hasnt got much service this season
You may have thought Roy for Rafa was a positive step, but you are mistaken, it is a MASSIVE step backwards. And the players will continue to be shackled under Roy's [...]
<span>
ReplyDelete<p><span><span>Agree, you don't need to have played the game to understand the "complexities" of football. obv proven by the success of managers like, Mourinho, Wenger and Benitez ect. </span></span>
</p><p><span> </span><span></span>
</p><p><span>As for Kuyt not being creative enough, esp when the going gets tough. </span>
</p><p><span>yeah, theres debate there, but - </span>
</p><p><span>you should take some factors into consideration, which I think you have not. Because you have oversimplified things before, without also focusing on the tactical side. </span>
</p><p><span>Kuyts qualities as a player, are dependent on the teams way of playing/tactical setup and performance. His strengths, obv are his intelligence, harrying, hard work, off the ball movement, and delivery. </span>
</p><p><span>Hes at his best, obv when the teams plays well, esp when team implements benitez's high tempo possession based football. </span>
</p><p><span>Thats the type of football, we will NEVER see under Hodgson- the opposite. </span>
</p><p><span>It's obvious that he doesnt have the flair/skill to open up a game, on his own. I mean, he can be v good, when hes getting involved in the attacking build up play, linking up, but when expected to "beat" a man, and whip in a cross, it wont work. When Hodgson plays him on the right, he plays him as a true "right winger", a position where you'd expect more individual flair ie "beating a man, and whiping in a cross" </span>
</p><p><span>Thats one of the main reasons, its not working out for Kuyt this season so far.
Benitez had the sense to play him on the right, as an AM, in a more advanced position, and he did that very well, when the team played well, and for holland at the world cup.
Also remember he has delivered in important games, you cant forget that. Important games, are exactly when the "going gets tough"
And also dont discount, how his harrying has lead to lots of chances in the Rafa days.
I hope you are consistent, in the way you criticise all players, judging players from a consistent standard. What about Gerrard last season? He was under par, and played in an important role.
I'd also like to make the point, that Hodgsons negative tactics don't suit ANY of the players. Gerrard , Meireles, Agger ect
Torres esp, He had one of the (if not the)highest goals to minutes ratio, every season under Benitez. They way Hodgson has used him, as a hold up man, does not suit his game, and he will continue to struggle.As Carra said, he hasnt got much service this season
You may have thought Roy for Rafa was a positive step, but you are mistaken, it is a MASSIVE step backwards. And the players will continue to be shackled under Roy's [...]
<p><span><span>Agree, you don't need to have played the game to understand the "complexities" of football. obv proven by the success of managers like, Mourinho, Wenger and Benitez ect. </span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span> </span><span></span>
</p><p><span>As for Kuyt not being creative enough, esp when the going gets tough. </span>
</p><p><span>yeah, theres debate there, but - </span>
</p><p><span>you should take some factors into consideration, which I think you have not. Because you have oversimplified things before, without also focusing on the tactical side. </span>
</p><p><span>Kuyts qualities as a player, are dependent on the teams way of playing/tactical setup and performance. His strengths, obv are his intelligence, harrying, hard work, off the ball movement, and delivery. </span>
</p><p><span>Hes at his best, obv when the teams plays well, esp when team implements benitez's high tempo possession based football. </span>
</p><p><span>Thats the type of football, we will NEVER see under Hodgson- the opposite. </span>
</p><p><span>It's obvious that he doesnt have the flair/skill to open up a game, on his own. </span><span>He can be v good, when hes getting involved in the attacking build up play, linking up, but when expected to "beat" a man, and whip in a cross, it wont work. When Hodgson plays him on the right, he plays him as a true "right winger", a position where you'd expect more individual flair ie "beating a man, and whiping in a cross" </span>
</p><p><span>Thats one of the main reasons, its not working out for Kuyt this season so far.
Benitez had the sense to play him on the right, as an AM, in a more advanced position, and he did that very well, when the team played well, and for holland at the world cup.
Also remember he has delivered in important games, you cant forget that. Important games, are exactly when the "going gets tough"
And also dont discount, how his harrying has lead to lots of chances in the Rafa days.
I hope you are consistent, in the way you criticise the players, judging players from a consistent standard. What about Gerrard last season where we miss 4th by 7 points? He was under par. So IF you talk about last season, mention him.
I'd also make the point, that Roys negative tactics don't suit ANY of the players. Gerrard , Meireles, Agger ect
Torres esp, He had one of the (if not the)highest goals to minutes ratio, every season under Benitez. They way Hodgson has used him, as a hold up man, does not suit his game, and he will continue to struggle.As Carra said, he hasnt got much service this season
You may have thought Roy for Rafa was a positive step, but you are mistaken, it is a MASSIVE step backwards. And the players will continue to be shackled under Roy's [...]
<span>
ReplyDelete<p>
</p><p><span>Agree, you don't need to have played the game to understand the "complexities" of football. obv proven by the success of managers like, Mourinho, Wenger and Benitez ect.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>As for Kuyt not being creative enough, esp when the going gets tough. <span> </span> </span>
</p><p><span>yeah, theres debate there, but - <span> </span> </span>
</p><p><span>you should take some factors into consideration, which I think you have not. Because you have oversimplified things before, without also focusing on the tactical side.</span>
</p><p><span>Kuyts qualities as a player, are dependent on the teams way of playing/tactical setup and performance. His strengths, obv are his intelligence, harrying, hard work, off the ball movement, and delivery.</span>
</p><p><span>Hes at his best, obv when the teams plays well, esp when team implements benitez's high tempo possession based football. <span> </span> </span>
</p><p><span>Thats the type of football, we will NEVER see under Hodgson- the opposite. <span> </span> </span>
</p><p><span>It's obvious that he doesnt have the flair/skill to open up a game, on his own. He can be v good, when hes getting involved in the attacking build up play, linking up, but when expected to "beat" a man, and whip in a cross, it wont work. When Hodgson plays him on the right, he plays him as a true "right winger", a position where you'd expect more individual flair ie "beating a man, and whiping in a cross" <span> </span> </span>
</p><p><span>Thats one of the main reasons, its not working out for Kuyt this season so far.</span>
</p><p><span>
Benitez had the sense to play him on the right, as an AM, in a more advanced position, and he did that very well, when the team played well, and for holland at the world cup.
Also remember he has delivered in important games, you cant forget that. Important games, are exactly when the "going gets tough"
And also dont discount, how his harrying has lead to lots of chances in the Rafa days.
I hope you are consistent, in the way you criticise the players, judging players from a consistent standard. What about Gerrard last season where we missed 4th by 7 points? He was under par. So IF you talk about last season, mention him.
I'd also make the point, that Roys negative tactics don't suit ANY of the players. Gerrard , Meireles, Agger ect
Torres esp, He had one of the (if not the)highest goals to minutes ratio, every season under Benitez. They way Hodgson has used him, as a hold up man, does not suit his game, and he will continue to struggle.As Carra said, he hasnt got much service this season
[...]
first time on site DK should be played alongside torres for six games to see how good he really is or how bad he really is
ReplyDelete