6/04/2010 01:11:00 am

SOS-led Liverpool 'fans' burning the US flag outside Anfield = An utter embarrasment

A new LFC low was reached last night as a small minority of rabid Liverpool 'fans' burned the American flag outside Anfield. Led like sheep by the divisive, agenda-driven extremists of 'Spirit of Shankly', a series of flags were burned in an embarrassing display of misguided loyalty (to Rafa Benitez) and irrational hatred towards the club's owners.

What a fantastic advert for Liverpool fans. What next, an assassination attempt on Hicks and/or Gillett?! Spirit of Shankly and the brainwashed fanatics who blindly follow them are increasingly turning Liverpool fans - and the club - into a laughing stock.

In my view, Liverpool fans everywhere should condemn this cheap, classless, childish stunt. Fans should also continue to shun Spirit of Shankly, who keep fanning the flames of discontent with their incessant misinformation/smear campaign against the club, its owners and anyone in the hierarchy who doesn't share their agenda.

With help from its supporters in the media (like Paul Tomkins and Tony Barrett) SOS is hell-bent on manufacturing a Liverpool FC 'doomsday scenario' in an attempt to convince fans that the club is on the verge of the apocalypse. They don't care how much damage they need to do to achieve that, or how badly their 'efforts' reflect on the club. SOS also don't care how the reputation of Liverpool fans is being irreparably tarnished.

SOS and its supporters care only about one thing: removing Hicks and Gillett, and if that means trashing the good name of the club in the process, they will do it without hesitation.

In my experience, Liverpool-based superfans (many of whom hang out on 'Red and White Kop - the home of LFC extremism, where this protest was planned) generally believe that anyone who doesn't live within a mile of Anfield is not a real fan. I have no doubt these superfans were the orchestrators of the protest, and they proved once again that they don't give a damn about the worldwide fanbase.

The burning of the US flag outside Anfield is the antithesis of everything the club stands for. Not only was it a gigantic insult to all American Liverpool fans, it was a slap in the face to ALL non-UK fans, and a slight upon the superb achievements of players and staff of many nationalities who helped build Liverpool's success over the years.

I don't know about anyone else, but images of narrow-minded Liverpool 'fans' behaving in a disgracefully xenophobic manner doesn't make me feel proud; or empowered.

It makes me feel ashamed.

And every fan who cares about the club above any individual should also feel ashamed, and condemn this pitiful display of undignified extremism.

EDIT: SOS claim that they had nothing to do with the protest. Right. Just like they had nothing to do with the Munich chants at their end of season party last year.

The fact is, SOS peddled their xenophobic 'Yanks Out' campaign for ages before being forced (by this site and many outraged *sensible* fans) to scrap it.

You reap what you sow: SOS created the anti-American hatred against the Owners that inexorably led to last night's action. They may or may not not have been the main organisers of the protest, but they are clearly still responsible.

Jaimie Kanwar





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223 Comments :

«Oldest   ‹Older   1 – 200 of 223   Newer›   Newest»
Guest said...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

ScouseUK said...

was disgusted when i sore the flag being burned,i get why SoS want the owners gone,we all no what they have done to the club,but to burn a flag to make a point is crazy........

great advert for future owners and investors,especially those in america......well done,hurt the owners i get but to hurt the club you claim to love is crazy

Tornike said...

An absolutely shameful act. If I was a non-American US-based LFC fan, I would be ashamed to look in the eyes of American Liverpool fans, even though (thankfully) I have nothing to do with this.

poloy said...

I'm curious as to what the justification for flag burning would be and what message these guys were trying to send.

xxxxx said...

Strange how all the people there were local scouse fans who know how to support the club, and all the people condemning it are the world away. It our club, not yours. oh and by the way check SOS's site THIS WAS NOT AN SOS PROTEST AND IT WAS A PROTEST AGAINST THE OWNERS, NOT FOR RAFAEL BENITEZ, so jamie, do an Exclusive on that, since you love ripping articles apart for the non thruths, do it own your own, this article is full of lies.

xxxxx said...

Strange how all the people there were local scouse fans who know how to support the club, and all the people condemning it are the world away. It our club, not yours. oh and by the way check SOS's site THIS WAS NOT AN SOS PROTEST AND IT WAS A PROTEST AGAINST THE OWNERS, NOT FOR RAFAEL BENITEZ, so jamie, do an Exclusive on that, since you love ripping articles apart for the non truths, do it on your own article, this article is full of lies.

Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/06/sos-led-liverpool-fans-burning-us-flag.html#ixzz0pqMRtlNR

xxxxx said...

Strange how all the people there were local scouse fans who know how to support the club, and all the people condemning it are the world away. It our club, not yours. oh and by the way check SOS's site THIS WAS NOT AN SOS PROTEST AND IT WAS A PROTEST AGAINST THE OWNERS, NOT FOR RAFAEL BENITEZ, so jamie, do an Exclusive on that, since you love ripping articles apart for the non truths, do it on your own article, this article is full of lies. 

Jay said...

The more time passes, the more we continue to make ourselves look more & more like a joke club.  Even more than Newcastle ever did!

From that whole "spam the media campaign" to this one, we just continue to hit new lows and it really makes me embarrassed to be a LFC fan at times   :(

So much for the old whole "the most intelligent fans in the world" or "the club that does things the right way" tags!

Guest said...

zzzzzzzzzzz

xxxxx said...

Also, you are missing the point in the burning of the flag, it was symbolism , it had pictures of hicks and gillet on with there names on, but don't let the facts hide the truth.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You are a prime example of the type of tedious superfan I refer to in the article.  It's not YOUR club at all.  If it wasn't for non-Liverpudlian, non-scouse players/staff and fans, Liverpool would still be in the second division right now (or worse).

The majority of Liverpool's success in the last50-60 years has been created by non-Liverpudlian players and managers.  Furthermore, without the worldwide supporter bases spending millions every year on merchandise etc, the club would've withered and died years ago.

The club belongs to everyone.

Liverpool based-fans are the minority; the non-UK based worldwide support is the majority.

The are plenty of moderate, intelligent, sensible scouse fans in Liverpool.  There are also lots of ignorant fans like you.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Right.  Like that makes a shred of difference. Why not just burn a flag containing the faces of Hicks and Gillett.  That would also be stupid bt it wouldn't have been so offensive.  You've achieved nothing except placing the club in a negative light, and (probably) putting off potential buyers.

john toher said...

I was wondering who you would vent your anger against now that Rafa has gone and I didnt have long to wait did I?
Its late, I am goin to bed, be constructive for once, good night!

sb86 said...

i do not like you Jamie.

steve said...

The flag burning was idiotic but let's get this in perspective. There was maybe 800 people there tonight. There are about 100 000 Liverpool fans in the Merseyside area. I live in Liverpool and i wasn't there but neither were 99.9% of Liverpool fans in the area. It was a derisory turn out.

SOS have about 5000 members. Liverpool worldwide have about 100 million fans. They are a minority who speak for NOBODY but themselves.

RAWK is viewed as a total embarassment by other Liverpool forums. It's mods banned all criticism of Benitez and helped promot the "In Rafa I Trust! cult like mentality. Ironically 99% of it's users are not from Liverpool, nor anywhere near it, and most have never even visited the city. It's a collection of sad blokes living out their own "superfan" mentality as they gang up on any dissenters with their fellow fruitcakes. The "Stepford forum" i believe is how it's commonly referred to. Other forums have threads laughing at RAWK, and that's from fellow Liverpool fans!! Imagine how the rest of the world views the place? It's a tragic site.

Let's not give this tiny minority of fools any more publicity than they have already got. It was a pathetic turn-out of misguided, and almost entirely male, dossers with nothing better to do.

To be fair it wasn't SOS who organised that event i believe it was a few posters on RAWK which reflects the laughably pitiful turn out. Their actions should be viewed with the contempt they deserve. And the good thing is they will be.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I'm truly devastated to hear that, but I'll learn to live again.

steve said...

So why were 99.9% of "local" fans not there then? Can't have been the weather can it mate?

It was a bunch of idiots off a website that's a laughing stock. Most local lads i know aren't even on RAWK, they'll use TLW or TIA maybe the rattle,YNWA etc but definitely not RAWK. Go back there with the other nutters.

Paul said...

Kanwar

Do you even go to Anfield?

I'd love to meet you for a pint.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Steve - 99% of liverpool-based scouse fans I've met in my lifetime are top people.  Like anything in life, it's only the minority at fault here.  I only mentioned the non-UK based fans as a response to xxxxx, who is seemingly part of that minority.

Jay said...

I was hopeful that this end of an era would see a reversion back to the clubs good ole days with the fans pulling together to move the club forward, but alas that was too much to hope for.  Why look forwards when you can focus on trying to drag the club down further eh??

We ALL know that the current owners aren't what the club wants or needs.  ALL LFC fans know this, whether we wanted Rafa to move on or not!  The owners have accepted this also and have committed to selling up as soon as they can get their money.  

Villainising them further doesn't mysteriously magic up buyers to buy them out though!!!  More importantly, nor does it give them ANY incentive to look out for the best interests of the club!!!  Why would anybody in their right mind care about what happens to the club, much less invest any money into the club, with a fanbase that is going to depict them as devils irrespective of what happens??

The optimism that I had is fading quickly,and I now wouldn't be surprised to see us receiving no transfer budget from the current owners and them just sticking with the free managerial option or even Mark Hughes coming in!  I guess the IRWTer's will be happy though, as long as they can help to ensure that the club fails without Rafa in charge  :(

steve said...

Haha...that is pricelessly stupid. I bet you have 10 000 posts on RAWK don't you?

It appears you don't know what's symbolic about burning the American flag regardless of whose "picture" is on it.

Unbelievable.

steve said...

Hey dude we've still got intelligent fans, they just don't use RAWK. In fact they laugh at it and everyone on there.

It's no surprise a gathering of buffoons off that site led to acts of buffoonery. It was actually rather predictable!!

Jay said...

maybe they just intended to use the smoke signals sent up in the air to make billionaire investors aware that such a great, professional club is available and just didn't have any other flammable substance to hand?

Or maybe it was intended to attract top prospective transfers from around the world by showing the passion still on display at this once great club?

Who knows - cult's have been known to sign joint suicide pacts before.  Maybe this was just their symbolism of taking the club down after seeing their leader deposed?

California Reds said...

xxxx u r truly an idiot for thinking and believing that LFC just belongs to locals. Football is a universal sport and a team needs to build a global fans so the club can sell merchandises. The more the better. In your tunnel vision, people like us who live in US and other continents should not even watch LFC at all. Burning US flag over Hicks and Gillett is moronic because they do not represent America. They don't make bad foreign policies or make war between countries. Just admit that action is wrong no matter how much u hate H & G

johno said...

completely agree with ye jamie, there are far more intelligent ways to deal with this situation

Jay said...

<span>maybe they just intended to use the smoke signals sent up in the air to make billionaire investors aware that such a great, professional club is available and just didn't have any other flammable substance to hand? 
 
Or maybe it was intended to attract top prospective transfers from around the world by showing the passion still on display at this once great club? 
Or maybe it was to show the likes of Riijkaard, Hiddink et al the level of devotion that they can command if they take over leadership of the cult?
 
Who knows - cult's have been known to sign joint suicide pacts before.  Maybe this was just their symbolism of taking the club down after seeing their leader deposed?<span>
</span></span>

AMWhy said...

This article is the new low.  Instead of talking about the HUGE news that our manager has left (and the reasons why) you talk about a flag that not one Brit is bothered about?  Why don't you talk about the real story instead?

poloy said...

he does have that article prior to this one.

Guest said...

   I certainly condemn the burning of the flag, which is in no way justifiable at least according to me. Jaimie you need to understand that there are other fans who think that Rafa Benitez leaving or not is not going to fix the problem that the club is in.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Believe me, I understand that.  Makes no difference though.  if these fans weren't so ignorant and didn't allow themselves to be so easily duped by SOS and the media 'LFC apocalypse' campaign, maybe they'd be able to see the wood for the trees.

Jay said...

the thing is Guest, most of us that thought that Rafa's time had come to an end readily accept that he wasn't the only problem at the club and that the ownership issue also needs to be resolved asap.  

However, his defenders refuse to hold Rafa accountable for ANYTHING that happened at the club, and use anything necessary as a smokescreen to justify his failures

Jay said...

I certainly hope that you're right Steve.  The problem is that this small minority is the visible aspect as the Liverpool fanbase, and we are all going to be tarred with the same brush as flag burning idiots.  Reasoned and balanced fandom is never newsworthy, so unfortunately the only people that will get any sort of spotlight are those that take things to the extremes   :(

What we look like abroad at the moment, with such a rabid and unbalanced fanbase, just can't be a very attractive proposition to potential investors or top class players with their pick of clubs to move to...  
unless they're turned on by the passion maybe?

steve said...

No worries, Jamie, it was a lunatic minority of clowns off a joke of a website that is totally unrepresentative of this city and Liverpool fans as a whole.

Like they say empty vessels make the most noise ;)

atsq said...

Jaimie. You're not a moderate sensible fan. Every time I read your column, you seem to represent everything that the Liverpool fan is not. While flag burning is extreme, at least I can relate to how they are feeling more than I can ever relate to your brown nosing of the owners who are the primary cause of the deterioration of our club. All the Benitez bashing makes me sick and if I was a self respecting manager, I would not go anywhere near LFC while the idiotic owners still have control. 

Let's see shall we: 

Great Manager - gone. 
Spanish contingent (Torres, Reina - even Mash and other Spanish speaking players) - at the very least will be disappointed by developments. 
Owners - No stadium, just debt and lies. 
Transfer money - What transfer money? Sell to buy doesn't count.

So in a very likely scenario of us losing Torres, Gerrard, and co. The chances of us bringing in replacements to IMPROVE the club given our resources and lack of proper management is very poor indeed. 

If the past year has shown, the Americans will always manage to disappoint us. Whatever your positive expectations, they will deliver LESS than hoped and give us more negatives to think about. This is just a speculative projection based on their entire tenure. The only positive spark in all of this WAS Benitez and now he is gone.  

If people think that the confidence and attitude that brought us our 7th placed finish was low... well we're at a whole new level of low now. I think we're at a point where Newcastle fans will not want to trade places with us. 

Guest said...

I personally don't hold Rafa accountable for anything that happened at the club, and believe that the club is making a big mistake. Even though Rafa's man management might be questionable to say the least, he still managed to take the club forward. Now I am truly gutted that the club decided to judge him for one bad season, nevertheless I believe that the club is bigger than the person. The most important thing now for me is to find a new manager (please let it not be MON no-matter what your stats are Jaimie) and most importantly get new owners who would take the club forward.

Joe Stilwell said...

Just one more reason I have to never return to Liverpool.

rooboy said...

whats all the fuss the yanks see their flag burnt everyday in countries raided by them. besides suicide bombing is in fashion now days not assassinations LOL

Antixxx1 said...

I Personally, am glad to see Rafa go. But i am not glad to see a bunch of halfwits destroy the good name of LFC. This dimly thought out protest is a big step backwards in finding new owners. What in gods name where they possibly thinking. H&G have said they are selling the club, so why would these halfwits go and pull a stupid stunt like this. It doesn't make any sense. It's not going to find owners any quicker, quite the oppisite really. At the moment it's like one step forward, three steps back..... Wake peoples...

trousers said...

 I understand why the flag was burned. I understand why liverpool fans are angry. Jamie seems to be writing an article on how liverpol fans protesting in a rational way would reflect well on the clubs fanbase. However this misses the point. The club is in the process of being destroyed. All liverpool fans have a voice and opinion which deserves to be heard. The situation is miserable and if a few fans can nolonger modestly stand by and watch their club be ripped apart then their actions have to be understood in context which they occured. If jamie wrote an article on how protesters might effect change in positive way,perhaps this would be of greater service as a liverpool fan? If your only response to to the situation  is writing an article about how a few fans are burning a flag then you need to grow up. I fear you are no more  than a Hicks and gillett apologist if not an outright supporter. I hope all international fans understand that there are wider more pressing concerns at hand which everyone needs to focus on together.

Colin said...

Jaime, now that you have achieved your agenda (don't say no, it's been quite obvious and everyone can see that. Be man enough to admit it) that many of us do quietly hope for, me too regretfully. I did not want to see him go, but also feels it might be necessary now.  Anyway, It time to see you put in the same effort with regards to the owners. Regards. I'm from Singapore and I bleed RED!

Ped said...

Just came across this site when looking at Benitez news articles and was so  shocked to see the nonsense being written by <span>Jaimie Kanwar. How ridiculous to suggest that Liverpudlians are a minority when it comes to supporting Liverpool FC and those who claim the club belongs to and represents Liverpool people are some sort of deluded arrogant superfan. Sure, if you want to be fans from wherever you are born or live then fine but don't turn up in a foreign land demonstrating such arrogance for the local people and culture. I don't like the 'Yanks out' message as it is naive and could be misconstrued as racism. However, anyone who visited Liverpool and talked to the supporters would clearly establish that it is short-hand (albeit lazy) language referring to two men only- two men who systematically rape the club at every opportunity.</span>

torres said...

So wat do we do, just sit down n wait for those yanks to finish LFC?? If SOS hadnt been there, i dont think the club would have been put on sale!!!

Jr said...

Well, they got lots of media coverage out of it and that is really not a bad thing.They did not kill anyone,they didn't hurt anyone,they didn't destroy anything.At least they go out and DO SOMETHING in contrast to people who only hides behind a pc.What have you done to get the owners out,Jaimie ?

kelow1 said...

So where are the 100,000 LFC fans in Liverpool at the most important moment in our clubs history? Have a go at SOS as much as you like but at least they are DOING something. You guys are the disgrace just sitting back and letting this disaster unfold.

Hello World said...

Is the ownership situation a monster created by the fans and the media, or were they that bad to begin with???

Let us suppose that rather than Kop Holdings, the company used to acquire the Clubs was called HG Ltd.

HG Ltd. borrowed heavily but with debts guaranteed by the owners.  It would then invest or lend some funds to Liverpool FC.  For the first couple years, the club paid no or little interest or return to the parent company because it simply wasn't self-sufficient.

However, the media likes a good story and without delving into the situation and actually looking at the club's published statements, started writing doomsday scenarios using the operative words "may" or "report" to justify their fairy tales.  Fans started protesting and running campaings to oust the owners.

Now... would you expect that these actions would endear themselves to the owners?  Would you expect that the protests would touch the hearts of the owners and bring them to plow more investment into the money-burning machine that is LFC?

Then there was the financial tsunami.  That probably ruined a few plans and cut the owners' wealth and liquidity.

What we know has happened is that LFC, as of last summer, appears to have been run like a business.  Coupled with this disaster of a season, the club is now in a tight financial situation because the club was not self-sufficient in the first place.

Whether this happened as a result of the owners losing commitment (due the acrimony they received) or whether they were always this crooked is unknown.  But regardless of what brought us to this situation... the fans, the media or the owners, the owners are the one variable that can be changed to give the club a healthier future.

The sooner the owners are gone, the better.  But whether they are villains in this matter I really don't know.

jesimps said...

If we're gonna start burning flags we may well all go around beating our heads and shouting "Death to the infidels". We used to be the most dignified fans in football, now we're just an undisciplined rabble.
Oh, and I'm extatic that Senior Benitez has at last been shown the door. Didn't want him in the first place and after he reduced our team to a boring flareless rabble with no skill or elan I wanted him even less.
Today is day one of the resurgance of the Redmen.

jesimps said...

Sorry, before someone pulls me up, meant ecstatic!

Max said...

Burning an American flag outside Anfield, absolutely disgusting.

I wonder what possible investors think about that? Our owners are selling the club, what more do the SOS want? 

They should hang there heads in shame.

Harry said...

I agree with you Jaimie. It was a disgrace burning a nation's flag in protests. This does not do any good to our club's image. By the way, welcome back jaimie. You kept your word man.

Wickid said...

I completely agree with you Jamie.

Cheesed said...

Burn the American flag for all I care, only an idiot would think that it represents an attack on the US rather than the owners.  They are top of the blame league with Rafa a close second. 
 
Our image has taken far worse blows than this -Media coverage of Heysel / Hillsborough anyone? We survived and moved on, lets put it into perspective.
 
Jaimie - If you wrote and published positive articles as well as your ultra negative normal stuff, I would be a far happier man.

xxxxx said...

You've fsiled to change your headline and article, please remove all links to SOS.

Tony Barret's Mate said...

Mate,
 Can you write an article without criticising Tony Barrett?
Every article I read with your name attached to it can't help but criticise the man.... Tony is a journalist and is not in control of any affairs that are happening at Liverpool... I think you have a vendetta against the man.... Jealousy me thinks!!
As he is a real journalist and you are just a guy with a website!!
Grow up and remember your own team's words " You'll never walk alone" when criticisng another kopite....

Tom said...

Kanwar is far from my favourite writer, but this article is relevant. Regardless of whether Brits respect the American flag or not, the act of flag-burning is idiotic mindlessness and extremely offensive.

Consider how seriously the yanks take their national symbols and this stupid group has offended an entire very influential nation and surely alienated many fans, for the purpose of sending a redundant message to two individuals.

THE CLUB IS FOR SALE YOU IDIOTS. H&G are moving on but an eight figure sale never happens quickly. In the meantime focus on projecting the positive aspects of LFC and not giving the media any more ammo to aim at our club in this time of relative hardship.

P.S. Whether directly influenced by SOS or not, this demonstration has their fingerprints all over it. I haven't read their website because I never would, but while denying responsibility I doubt that they have condemned the incident.

James said...

Welcome to propaganda city. Where the lies are followed by more lies.
Pointless biased article, with the odd fraction of truth, which from this author is to be expected

Alan said...

Jaimie, you know that this is not directed at the American nation just 2 people. Your country is great but two of your citizens have raped this great club of ours and this is a war after today end of story. Surely you can think objectively about this as you like to protray you look at it objectively when you write you articles. Why not or have you changed your tune to score off SOS again when in fact this wasn't organised as an SOS rally whatsoever.

Riccardo Leone said...

I know well the World because I've travelled around the world and I'm italian.
Italians taste the smell of politics group from miles away and You, Spirit of Shankly, You have some sort of political interest and You are led by individual with some sort of political & personal interests.
These kind of actions is far & far miles away from the best interests of Liverpool Football.
It's evident.
I've another culture and when People are seeking personal interests & personal profits forcing the sitatuon in a violent way I always taste the smell.
I'm unhappy because I know history of my beloved Club and I can't believe that all these disgruntled actions which offend Liverpool's culkture & history can be done in the name of Bill Shankly: what a huge insult.
I represent Liverpool Italian Branch and We have a lot of contacts with Liverpool - Fans based: They always write articles in our website and They always offer all the support possible: what a kind & nice persons.
They know well that our passion is a genuine love for the history & culture of this magnificent Club so They are open minded - person and They always help us in any possible way.
The large majority of Liverpool Fans are very very nice people.
Rafa Benitez is only a man: LFC is a bigger than a man and with the support of King Kenny Dalglish We'll come back.
YNWA.

xxxxx said...

Sorry to dissapoint yer led, but this was widespread on many forums and facebook.

Max said...

The fact is that a NATIONAL FLAG was burnt, if the protest was directed at H&G then it should have been a flag with only them on it.

Does this mean that when our new owner/owners take control and also get accused of running the club into the ground will their National flag also get burnt? What an insult to America and what a great statement for new investors.

It is the SOS who are making LFC look like a complete laughing stock.

Hello World said...

I feel that the heart of SOS is in the right place but as soon as we have a new owner, I believe SOS should be dissolved as well. There should be a fresh start for everybody.

The protest and flag burning may not have been an SOS event but it clearly wasn't disapproved of.  When I visited the SOS website there was a write up of the protest but NO CONDEMNATION of the events that occurred.

I think the Munich incident is also still on some people's minds.  Then there was the incident between Purslow and SOS where SOS published supposedly confidential minutes.  Will new owners be able to trust them in light of that?

What I believe the best road going forward (when there are new owners) would be the formation of a new supporters group.

They should push for a non-voting seat on the board of LFC in exchange for the club holding a similar position on the board of the supporters group.

Obviously there may often be confidential issues involved so the directors must be legally liable for any leaks between club and supporters' group. But it would do well to ensure that the interests of all parties are at least raised if not addressed.

It could be a pipe dream... but seriously, if the owners are a black eye on the club, SOS is at least a serious bruise. Both need to go, but the owners are the priority.

bib 'n' braces said...

Rumour has it Gary Megsons and Brian Laws have been seen outside anfield this morning - lol

Loop said...

The owners are the embarrasment to thi club so shut up, Jaimie! You got what you wanted. Rafa's out. If we get lucky we might have a Mickey Mouse as manager, Hicks playing in n. 7 and Gillett in n. 10 shirt next year. Yippii.

Tony said...

I have no affiliation to SOS and am not a member; but the protest wasn't organised by them. You go on about being an embarrassment; take a look in the mirror will you?

Max said...

Jaimie

You know what I find really amusing?

There are people blaming you for Rafa's departure...

I couldn't wait to say the following...

It feels good to be a LFC supporter again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:-D

Max said...

That's right Loop,

Ridicule King Kenny who is selecting our Mickey Mouse manager...

Rafa is gone, get over it and move on.

No more two holding midfielders and rubbish football!!! 

Hell Yeah, we will rise again!!!

YNWA!!!

Marsh said...

I don't condone the burning of the flag, but i can understand the frustrations of the local fans who have to live in the city and watch everyday what is happening to their club.

SOS have strongly spoken out against the Flag burning and were not involved in the planing of this protest.This article is inaccurate and bias to promote  the author's sole opinion.

Like most things on this site an argument with only one perspective.

I am an international fan that travels every year from CPT, South Africa to Liverpool.I love the city and the people and have never experienced anything negative from the local fans.

The Local fans are the life blood of the club, the season ticket holders, THE KOP , the Steven Gerrard's , Cara's , Fowler's ,etc these are what make us a special club!! THE LINKS TO THE LOCAL COMMUNITY !!!

Ask any LFC Player what they care about more Shirt and mug sales or the people that spend every cent they have to support the club they love buy paying for TICKETS for every game , home and AWAY !!!!!

Who do you think you hear singing @ every away game ? Its the Local fans and they have a right to be very unhappy with the current situation.

Riccardo Leone said...

Someone then can explain me why vouchers of SOS are been in the place of protest to keep their volume high...
A simply Coincidence? Go away and playing these tricks with another kind of fans...
I'm not a sheep.

Alan said...

One the flags had Gillett's face on it, is that not good enough for you?

Nickname said...

Burning of a flag that represents a country is always wrong, protesting against the owners in my view is very right.

I agree with Jaimie (please notice i spelt your name correctly this time) When i hear Liverpudlians talking about how out of towners are not welcome that shocks me. I have lived abroad for 12 years now, i put as much into the club as i can afford. I watch all games (by all games, i mean every game they play and not what is shown on Sky sports), i live and breathe Liverpool FC ( to the annoyance of my girlfriend) To say i do not matter, i do not count is a joke. The truth of the matter the majority of LFC supports do not reside in Liverpool, most do not have the opportunity to attend games but we still support the team. We are important, we are the majority and without us LFC would not be in the position they are now. Saying that of course local supporters are very important. Please do not discount me as a supporter coz i can only get to 3 games a year.

Nickname said...

It always feels good to be a Liverpool supporter. We support the greatest team in the world, no manager and no owner can change that.....right?

Alan said...

Because Liverpool Football Club is more than just a football club, Liverpool was a city persecuted by the Thatcher government in  the 80's. The team at that time gave it the most joy during that difficult period, this is why these protests are going to continue until Liverpool Football Club is rightfully back in the hands of the people who remain throughout us supporters.

If your hometown was persecuted and your football team gave you so much joy, being protective of its future is paramount. As for this SOS Yanks Out Campaign that Jaimie credits himself with, Yanks Out was being bellowed out last night on TV by non-SOS members so your article here has no substance or conjecture.

Alan said...

Rise again with the fans in charge. When Gerrard, Torres and Mascherano leave before the end of July will it open your eyes to the shit this great club of ours is in. Who put us there these 2 cowboys and the cowards that exist in the board of directors.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Why would I change the headline?  I believe SOS organised the protest.  I know for a fact that some of its members were part of the orgnisation process, so that makes SOS vicariously liable.

Also, read the note at the bottom of the article: SOS peddled the 'Tanks Out' campaign for over a year; the sowed the seeds of xenophobic discontent.  Yesterday's action is a direct consequence of that (IMO)

Alan said...

Get back your box kid you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Alan said...

SOS shouldn't be disbanded but what should remain is a supporters group that holds to account any owners to account going forward into the future to never allow what has gone on in the last 3 years happen ever again.

CreativeRealist said...

As you only deal with "facts" and require "proof" of everything before anyone can make a point can you please ramove all reference of SOS from this article? To do anything else would be ignoring the facts wouldn't it? We wouldn't want people to be misinformed would we or is it a case of "do as I say not as I do"?......

Bored_of_Kanwar! said...

I have to agree with Jamie on this one. I was disappointed to see reds fans burning the US flag outside the ground. I've been a life long fand and have been going for years. I have seen good and bad managers come and go and Liverpool has continued. This demonstration is tantamount to xenaphobia and not within the spirit of the club I have loved all my life.

I supported Benitez and I liked the guy, so was disappointed to see him go, but if he has lost the dressing room then there was no other option.

People may be angry that he has gone and feel it is Hicks and Gillett that have driven him out, but its a results business and the truth is we are out of the champions league.

Flag burning is for fanatics, extremists and terrorists not football fans!

YNWA

Jaimie Kanwar said...

The fact you really believe that 'the club is in the process of being destroyed' says it all.  SOS and the doomsday agenda has taken over you.  Liverpool FC is NOT in the process of being destroyed.  Such ridiculous hyperbole.  It is nowhere near that state; SOS and frenzied anti-H+G supporters are trying to create that improession with lies and misinformation, and you are falling for it.

Please explain why the club is 'being destroyed' with specific *accurate* examples, and not the same old LFC forum/mecia cliches.  Arguments like 'we're paying 110 k interest a day' or 'we're 472m in debt are not valid as I've proved that this is false information.  Just mentioning that we're in debt as a reason is also not a valid argument.  Debt is part and parcel of football; this is what you and others fail to understand.

The FOOTBALL side of things was being destroyed by Rafa Benitez (hence the debacle of last season), but the CLUB has taken steps to rectify that.

Jay said...

Marsh - I too can understand the frustration and anger of some fans, especially if they continue to (wrongly imo) believe that Rafa was the right man for the job.  However, such negative public demonstrations are definitely the wrong way to about things, as they do far more harm to the image of the club than to the intended targets (the owners, who probably pay very little attention to these demonstrations, whereas potential owners/transfer targets are probably taking more a little more notice).

Finally, if S.O.S have indeed disassociated themselves from these senseless acts than I agree that Jamie should change the heading of this article and remove mention of the group from this article.  It is as unfair to blame them for a bunch of idiots, as it is to blame LFC itself, if they were not responsible for organising/coordinating the event.  And just a few members of S.O.S turning up does not mean that they were representative of the acts committed or were endorsed/ promoted by that organisation in their actions

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Whether you like it or not it is fact: Liverpudlian fans are the minority when it comes to the wordwide fanbase, and the superfans who look down on non-LFC based fans should remember that. 

And 'systematically rape the club' - god, are you not embarrassed by the use of such overwrought hyperbole.  You sound like the Star Wars fans who moan about George Lucas 'raping their childhood' with the crappy Star Wars prequels.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

SOS had nothing to do with the club being put up for sale.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

The media coverage is negative, not positive.  It makes Liverpool fans look like a raving, lunatic, extremist mob.  Bravo!

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yes, why don't we all band together and kidnap H+G; torture them jack Bauer style, cutting off one finger at a time until they agree to sell the club for 10 dollars.  At least we'd be DOING something, right?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Excellent points, Hello World.

I agree with your point about the ownership situation (possibly) being a monster created by the fans.

In my view, it is beyond question that the fans have played their part in creating this mess. All the negativity, misinformation, exaggeration, lies and hyperbole comes from one set of people: the fans.

Gary said...

The whole scene was utterly ridiculous. Here we are trying to sell the club and we have a bunch of idiots burning flags. That'll look brilliant for prospective buyers wouldn't it? What next a lynching?

I have no problem with peaceful, that is your democratic right but what is the point in burning flags. What did you think it was going to achieve? H&G have already said they are selling and to be honest I'm happy for them to take their time over it and get good owners so we don't end up with another H&G.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

It doesn't matter what you or I think: it's how the incident will be perceived on a large scale.  That's the point.  Whether you like it or not, lots of US fans (and Americans in general) will be offended by burning the flag.  Whether that's right or wrong is irrelevant.  if someone is offended then that means its offensive.  This is what these idiotic fans fail to accept. There's no point going round saying things lke 'but we just aiming our aggression at H+G' - people see what they want to see, and the abiding image is the American flag being burned, an image that will now be associated with Liverpool FC.

Nickname said...

Dude, Jack Bauer never did that kind of stuff, this is just pure slander ;)

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Jealous?!  Do me a favour! I have great respect for Tony Barrett.  I have not slagged him of personally; I have stated what I perceive to be a fact about the nature of his writing about LFC.

If you read his articles, you will see that he ceaselessly peddling the doom and gloom agenda, repeatedly arguing that LFC is on the verge of meltdown, the world is ending etc.

He has also deliberately reported inaccurate figures re Liverpool's debt as part of his anti-owner agenda.

First, he said the CLUB was in 472m of det.  I proved this wasn't the case in a recent article.  He's now changed his tune and is reporting that the club is 351m in debt.  Again, this is inaccurate.  TB has basically gone from reporting the group debt level, to reporting the debt level of Kop Football Limited.

He's clearly loathe to report the *actual* level of debt on the club, which is currently 226m.  Why?  Because it's not a sensational enough figure. 

In my view, TB has a responisbility to tell the truth, and that includes reporting on the ownership situation in a fair manner.  What he has done instead is allow is personal dislike of H+G to cloud his judgement.  He has jumped on board the anti-Owner bandwagon and will exaggerate the truth to achieve the goal of demonising H+G.

I can understand this approach, but it is not fair, it is not truthful, and it is not the way Liverpool fans should be behaving.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Doesn't make any difference.  The majority of people who'll see the photos footage will only see the American flag.  That's the point.  They don't care about tiny details; they care about something they value being trashed.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Fans in charge? You mean like the 'fans' who disgraced the club yesterday?  Dream on.  Having a bunch of militant fans in charge would send the club into the dark ages.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Marsh - if you live in Liverpool then obviously you have more opportunity to go to games.  The worldwide fanbase is at a locational disadvantage.  Just because fans can walk a mil down the reoad to get to Anfield doesn't make them better fans.  It's not posswible for every fan to live in Liverpool (!)  It's also not possible for every fan to attend games.  The whole argument is ridiculous.

Hello World said...

When I mean disbanded I mean completely reorganized. 

The supporters union needs a new start and a new image with totally new people at the top (someone has to take the fall or appear to for the mistakes that have been made).

I think that could win back fans and make the union more relevant to the majority of people.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No. I will not remove reference to SOS from this article.  Their fingerprints are all over this protest.  They fanned the flames of xenophobic anti-owners discontent with their 'Yanks Out' campaign.  SOS are the great enablers.  Their members were, as a matter of fact, involved, thus SOS is vicariously liable.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Well, he should have! Alas, 24 is no more...maybe he'll cut some fingers off in the 24 movie ;)

Sean said...

The owners have placed a huge debt on the club that we have had no benefit for. If we had bought a stadium for the debt then fine but we are paying a debt of interest to teh banks and we have no benefit. How can you think that leveraging our club does not make them villans? They broke every promise they stated (no debt on the club...so they created a structure of debt where the club is an asset! Is that not pointing to their lack of ability to be truthful? Dont get it do you?

Paul said...

And the title of your article?

qwerty said...

The Americans are never going to sell the club so I fail to see how they have put off potential buyers.  I agree the flag burning is a bit extreme but Liverpool fans are passionate about this club and some times emotions overrun logic.

XYZ said...

When the super fans vent their anger towards the owners why do they keep on picking on the owner nationality, its disgusting and just shows how narrow minded they are. 

I absolutely hate all this Yanks out and burning American flags, there are many ways to show your dislike towards the owners without being racist!

I have also noticed that people have left comments on here saying there is nothing wrong with burring American flags. My question to you lot is how would you feel if it was the other way round and Americans were brining English flag because they were unhappy with the English owners of their sports club, and you supported that club too?       

XYZ said...

<span>When the super fans vent their anger towards the owners why do they keep on picking on the owner nationality, its disgusting and just shows how narrow minded they are.  
 
I absolutely hate all this Yanks out and burning American flags, there are many ways to show your dislike towards the owners without being racist! 
 
I have also noticed that people have left comments on here saying there is nothing wrong with burning American flags. My question to you lot is how would you feel if it was the other way round and Americans were brining English flag because they were unhappy with the English owners of their sports club, and you supported that club too? <span></span></span>

Rob said...

Well are you making a mountain out of a molehill. Americans burn the flag too, did ya know?
Second, putting SOS-led as if it is fact because you believe it is retarded, in the same way that a slimy journalist would write an article about a rumour as if it were fact, with no evidence whatsoever.

Thirdly, RAWK's mods dont mod anti-rafa sentiment. Why would they? Otherwise they would mod anti-anyone to do with Liverpool sentiment, and thats complete bollocks. I get the feeling that people who critisise it dont even go on there. On one hand you critisise one guy who says that the protest was made up of scouse fans who believe in the club because they aren't the most important. On the other you let one which says most rawk posters dont even come from Liverpool slide. Talk about lack of balance, which leads me nicely to my last point.

Finally, feel free to label RAWK as 'extremist' One of Rafa's biggest critics does commentary on matches for the site. Of course now I've defended it someone is now going to go something like 'oh you 10,000 rawk poster you.' And believe me im slitting my wrists over that now.
But believe me, there are far bigger joke sites out there then rawk. Far, far bigger. Ill leave you to find them. You wont have to look too far, lets say.

Hello World said...

I think you mean they placed a huge debt on the holding company, to which their own assets are pledged as collateral, and the owners are stuck paying their interest because LFC isn't self sustaining. 

According to Jaimie's previous article (see http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/liverpool-fc-interest-payments-media.html) and company financial statements filed with the registry (they are public and available for review so you can check his evidence), LFC has not been shouldering most of the interest payments.

That is false information spread by the press.

Hello World said...

Who is this post directed at anyways?

The site isn't perfect... but Jaimie has contributed a lot of work that has cleared up a lot of misperceptions about the club.  That makes it MUCH MORE informative than a "Me Too" forum where people just voice their undying adulation for certain players or managers, or their untempered criticism for the owners.

RAWK was mentioned by one of the commenters... I don't think that has anything to do with the article.

The SOS link is debateable and possibly a bit tenous. I don't know the circumstances but if senior SOS members or executives were involved though (and I don't know whether they were)... it is as good as unofficially endorsing it.

AlexStar said...

"It our club, not yours." What do you mean by "our"? You don't represent me, XXX. I'm a lifelong LFC fan and I am ashamed that we have also have fans like you. Without the nationwide support we wouldn't even be premiership material let alone challenging for any titles.

If you had your way we would lose 90% of our fanbase and be nothing.

SOS stands for Spirit of SHANKLY. Here is a link to inform you of something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shankly  - Find the place where it says he is a Liverpudlian please. If you can't find it then kindly crawl back under your rock. Or do you feel like he shouldn't have had anything to do with the club since he wasn't a local*??

AlexStar said...

Not one Brits is bothered about?? What?? I think more than only Liverpool fans feel shame for this. This is a blight on English fans in general and there is no excusing it. I don't agree with half of what Kanwar goes on about either but in this case he has brought a valid point to light.

Its important that articles like this come to light to show that this is a stunt indicative of a very small proportion of our fans.

bored of huyton said...

As David Moores pointed out in his letter to The Times, DIC had a 6 year exit strategy, so they'd possibly have been similarly poor owners for us.

The protests against G&H not only serve the purpose of putting pressure on our unfit owners to lower their ridiculous price and move on, but I also like to think they serve the purpose of weeding out particularly unsavoury characters that may have looked on Liverpool as somewhere to make a cheap and easy buck.

The protests have received global recognition, and nobody could realistically walk in thinking they can get away with asset-stripping the club without recourse from the fans.

bored of huyton said...

I can't help but notice a pattern - you seem to have difficulty distinguishing the words "militant" and "passionate".

Do please note that they're not actually interchangeable. If you look them up, you'll find that one of them could be construed as derogatory in the instance above.

Max said...

I think you missed the point Nickname.

We are all supporters of LFC but does that mean everybody was feeling good to be a supporter.

I guess only those who have been praising Benitez?

Tell you what, why dont you go as Alan Hansen how he has felt for the last six years 8-)

Kopstick said...

Would the british flag be burnt if it were UK owner's that were screwing the club over? I think not. I don't really see the point in burning an American flag when their might potentially be an American billionaire Liverpool supporter somewhere who wants to buy the club. Not probable I know but not impossible.

Flag burners are morons!

bored of huyton said...

From what I understand, the union numbers have been swelling at hitherto-unseen levels in recent weeks as more and more people have opened their eyes to the reality behind the scenes at LFC. Quite how anybody could see this as a time for SOS to disband or reorganise is hysterical.

This is all irrelevant to this "story" anyway as the protest last night wasn't union organised.

Nickname said...

Mate, if i knew Mt Hansan i would. I would also think that he wouldn't me as negative towards Benitez as you are.

I think you missed the point, being a Liverpool FC supporter is bigger than a manager or owners, i will always be happy to support them.

I hope you give the new manager time to shape the team before you turn on him?

bored of huyton said...

If people look at pictures and then go off into a blind, irrational panic without taking time to actually learn about the context, then they're knobs.

There's been TV and press coverage in the states which has obviously led with the fact that flags have been burned, but has been very considered in explaining why.

People can indeed be quite stupid and leap to judgments, but don't play to the dumb Jaimie - I thought you were all about nuance and reading in-between the lines?

Flag burning on US soil is something that divides a lot of Americans. This is something quite different. The flag is shorthand for our American owners. I'm sure those attending the protest would've loved to have commissioned a couple of lifesize waxworks, but time was limited beforehand. Stop turning it into something that it's not.

Paul said...

You and Jamie sound like twins... Is Jaimie an auditor? Is Kop Football Holdings Ltd not the company which owns LFC? Do you have the financial statements of Kop Football Holdings? Is the interest shown in that article the only money which moves from LFC to Kop Holdings or to the owners in some form each year?

Loop said...

Hi Max,

i would never ridicule the King. I didn't say anything about Mr. Dalglish. Just think how many top managers are available at the moment. Few months ago, there were Hiddink, Mourinho and so on. Anyway, it's not Dalglishs fault that nobody wants to manage our team in this situation.

bored of huyton said...

It was key to me that Hicks made at least 3 or 4 references to a "particular group of fans making trouble" (or similar - I forget the wording) in his response to Hicks' letter.

They have been made almost unbelievably uncomfortable by SOS, and you know it. SOS is unquestionably a factor in Gillett and Hicks wanting out.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Paul - you have a profound misunderstanding of the situation.

1. NO MONEY moves from LFCAGL (The Club) to Kop Football Holdings.  LFC pays interest to Kop Football Ltd. 

THAT IS THE EXTENT OF THE CLUB'S INTEREST BURDEN TO HICKS AND GILLETT.

Kop Football Limited pays interest to Kop Football Holdings.

Hicks and Gillett may own the club via KFHL but that makes no difference to anything: they cannot take money out of the club to pay interest charges/debt.  They cannot and they HAVE NOT.

When the club is sold, LFCAGL's debts will be paid off.  Any money left over will go to H+G, whoc will pay off the debts of their holding companies.

If they refuse to do that and just bail out, LFCAGL will not suffer because the holding companies cannot talke money out of the club if it would make the club insolvent.

The worst that would happen to LFC is a points deduction.  H+G would remain liable for the debts on their holding companies.

The point you and all the misinformation artists miss is this: using holding companies actually PROTECTS the club from financial strife.  Or would you rather all the debt was place on the CLUB, i.e. on the books of the company that runs the club?

bored of huyton said...

No, the British flag wouldn't be burned if we had UK owners. That would be confusing. Steve Morgan and Dave Whelan might have got upset thinking it was aimed at them.

Hands up now everybody on this site that didn't know what the American flags were being burned for though?

Everybody here knows what it was about and the reasons for it. Stop trying to make it into a bigger issue than it actually was - it was a non-violent protest against our inept owners and nothing more.

You lot should really try the Mail and the Express. You'd fucking love both of them.

Sean said...

LFC pay 10% interest on 130M GBP that the owners 'loaned' to LFC through their holding company. So effectively yes they do owe another 130M on top of the 226 that is owed to the banks. If you are nieve enough to thing that a group of companies that LFC is part of and is effectively the only asset the bank can recvover on are not effectively one company then you need to get back to School. The holding company is a limited company so the owners personal assets are protected (save for the 130M they put in, and the only reason they did that was that the banks forced them to.

KPMG have qualified LFCs accounts for 2 years running now in terms of them as a going concern (ie worried about their ability to continue trading). Maybe they have got it wrong as well eh?

Maybe the Enron gorup of companies were all seperate as well when they went bankrupts (Oh sorry, thats right, the holding company had to seel all assets and companies that it owned to satisfy the creditors).

If you think that LFCs debts should ignore the holding companys debts then you need help son.

As I said, the owners said no debt on LFC, so why are LFC paying ANY interest if this is the case? Yes, the lied son.....

ps I have been a qualilified accountant for 15 years so have a reasonable insight into finances.

longchalk said...

A small part perhaps - it will only be a tiny minority, if you give them the exposure it will look bigger than it is.
With the fever and the attempted depth of your articles I do wonder why so little has been done to address the off fieled problems.
Thier is a striking inbalance with what is reported on here - a root cause as to such animositys perhaps.

Max said...

I think you once again miss the point were I am happy that Benitez is gone and I am really happy that Dalglish is involved in selecting our next manager. That makes me feel good and will always make me a LFC supporter HENCE ME SAYING THAT IT FEELS GOOD TO BE A LFC SUPPORTER AGAIN.

Or do we explain it this way:

If Benitez was still our manager I would not have felt good but it would still make me a LFC supporter.

Get my point now?

And the next manager should rightfully be given as much time as Benitez has been given.

For your info, here is what Alan Hansen said recently:

<span>"The painful truth for Liverpool and their supporters is that the new manager at Anfield, whoever he turns out to be, will find a worse squad at his disposal than that which Benítez inherited from Gerard Houllier in 2004," Hansen told The Daily Telegraph.</span>

<span>"And you could even argue that Liverpool are in their worst state since Bill Shankly arrived at the club more than 50 years ago.

"After six years under Benítez, it is definitely time for a change at Anfield, and credit must go to managing director Christian Purslow and chairman Martin Broughton for being strong with their decision, but whoever comes in faces a mammoth task, one which will start with a blank sheet of paper and a realisation that it will be a long haul ahead.

"You could be looking at three to four years before Liverpool get back to where the club should be."

But Hansen is in no doubt as to where the blame for the club's recent dip in fortunes should lie.

"Although Benítez will cite a variety of reasons – the owners, key players losing form, the financial problems – he is the man who has filled a squad that is littered with bad buys," he added.

"Benítez made too many mistakes with too many players. In recent seasons, he hasn’t got any right beyond Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano and, possibly, Glen Johnson. They were all big-money buys and players of proven quality.

"Benítez has had money to spend, but when he has bought players in the mid-range market of £3-5 million, they just have not been good enough and that is why Liverpool's bench has been so poor in recent months.

"He has spent too much money on average players and we are now seeing the fruits of that because Liverpool are a long way short of competing to finish in the top four, never mind fighting to win the big boys' trophies."
</span>
<span></span>
<span>I however do not agree with Alan that it will take 3-4 years for our club to get back on track though...</span>

Sean said...

are you seriously expecting me to believe they will walk away from the interest charged through intercompany transactions where they loaned the company 130M???

You are deluded son. They will build that into the unrealistic price they are asking.

ps If LFC do not have to pay this interest then why is the holding company bothering to charge interest?

How is Scott the Red Jaimie? Scmoozing on the Manc site that continually allows its members to make Hillsborough comments.......And you have the temerity to make comments about SOS......

longchalk said...

ok a few pent up boys burn a flag not condoning it however with such terrible times nigh 'apparentley' this was allways on the cards.
making a song and dance about this error is componding it -
least said soonest mended springs to mind.

A small part perhaps - it will only be a tiny minority, if you give them the exposure it will look bigger than it is.
With the fever and the attempted depth of your articles I do wonder why so little has been done to address the off fieled problems.
Thier is a striking inbalance with what is reported on here - a root cause as to such animositys perhaps.

longchalk said...

<span>

I cant take the articles here that seriously its more the comments input that interests me.
The writer here is often clouded by one or other turmoil. You don’t see Henry Winter becoming embroiled in tittle-tattle with critics or forum commentators. It just wouldn’t do.
The writer here fails to rise above the bait and is perceived as all the more worse for it,
That with the unorthodox obsessive quests for management change, contrasts with ‘apathy’ for the clubs precarious state off the pitch .It’s a striking unbalance.
</span>
im not trying to ligh a fire this is a constructive comment.


No wonder alarm bells ring! fans with limited perception will jump on it and gord this attitude even more.
It will be perpetual circle, the writers passion can be seen yet something is missing, something’s not quite right.
In times like this we need a bit more of a mature insight.

longchalk said...

im not trying to light a fire this is a constructive comment.

<span>

I just cant take some of the articles here that seriously its more the comments input that interests me.
The writer here is often clouded by their own turmoil. You don’t see Henry Winter becoming embroiled in tittle-tattle with critics or forum commentators. It just wouldn’t do. The writer here fails to rise above the bait and is perceived as all the more worse for it,
That with the unorthodox obsessive quests for management change, contrasts with ‘apathy’ for the clubs precarious state off the pitch .It’s a striking unbalance.
No wonder alarm bells ring! fans with limited perception will jump on it and gord this attitude even more.
It will be perpetual circle, the writers passion can be seen yet something is missing, something’s not quite right.
what we need now is a little more insight with due maturity.
</span>

KB1 said...

<span>

The club was founded in the area. For most of it's existence, it was solely supported by people from the area. It is still the heartbeat of the local community. It is in the name after all. It isn't Worldwide FC. To suggest that the worldwide fanbase is more important than the local one is not only wholly incorrect but fundamentally stupid. But then, most of your writing is.
What next? Take Liverpool away from Liverpudlians?
And I am not a scouser.
</span>

Max said...

Hi Loop

Why wouldnt there be anyone who wouldnt want to manage LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB?

Oh, and I doubt Dalglish will appoint a Mickey mouse manager, do you? 

Nickname said...

I read that article, but i also believe that he flip flops between his opininions on LFC depending on what publication he is trying to sell. In the LFC mag and on the e-season ticket channel he believes we are very close to being a top team but when selling <span>The Daily Telegraphs agenda he has a different opinion. I guess it is hard to stay consistant.
</span>

And all i was saying in my point is that i always feel good about supporting our team, no matter who is incharge, i guess we disagree.

So the next manager gets 6 years? or is it 4 years (wasn't that when you turned on Rafa?) What happens is he doesn't win anything for those 6 years?

I have no idea how long it will take to get to the top. Depends if we keep our squad and get a new owner. If not, i can see us taking a while to get back to the top.

Jon said...

RAWK's moderating team took a stand against flag burning. Several topics were locked as they felt that the flag burning would be counter productive and they would not lend the site's tacit support to such actions. The protest last night was spontaneous and organised across a range of social media. A lot of people were very peeved and wanted to show it. 

Whatever you thought of Rafa as a manager, it was handled extremely shabbily. The board leaking to the press that they were attempting to force a manager to accept less than a fifth of what he was contractually obliged to does not look good. But the board have not covered themselves in glory all season. These things should be done behind closed doors - not leaked whilst the manager was on holiday.

SOS people are fans too. The SOS executive are entitled to support anything they want. They are not full time employees, they are volunteers. SOS representatives got media coverage because they were recognised by the reporters there. Given an opportunity to express the policies of the union, as voted on by the membership, they would have been derelict in their duties to not use the opportunities. There is not need for conspiracy theories showing the shadowy hand of SOS in everything. There is widespread discontent that is going to manifest itself in all sorts of ways all summer. Some of it will be ill-advised and unfortunate, but people are very upset about what is happening to their club.

Jon said...

A British flag being burnt does not have the reasonance that a US flag burning has.

To see how seriously the USA take their flag, google the US flag code.

In the UK, the attitude to burning the Union Flag would probably be meh. Unless it was done by illegal immigrants / benefits cheats / militant lesbians, whereupon it would be front page on the Daily Mail.

James said...

You do know that there were posts on RAWK, the apparent 'home of liverpool fc extremism', from an SOS spokesman on the website to ask fans to not burn american flags?

I don't read your articles Jamie, but most of what i just read is utter rubbish. Are you one of the deniers who sits in their armchair watching the games, telling yourself that Hicks and Gillette are not killing our club? At least SOS are out there trying to save our club and give us fans a voice in the running of our club.

GoodKopBadKop said...

Hmm....remember last time something was burnt outside Anfield......Gerrards shirt.

Turned out that was a plant by SSN - what price that this is too?

Fact is the embarrassment here is H&G and their application of business logic to a football club (an industry which operates to it's own rules).

No matter what you say the fact is that they have broken promises about the stadium , paid for the club by loading their debt onto the club (via a complicated web of subsidiaries and trading companies), and consider the club I love to be no different from a breakfast cereal.

true some fans do get caught up in the media hype and make incorrect accusations but there is no way anyone in their right mind can justify the way these guys are running our club or claim it is a model that should be followed elsewhere.  Debt is a bad thing, end of.

Yes they are dealing with a decline that started long before they came to our shores but if they aren't able to do the job they should pass it on to someone who can - the idea that they should do this at a loss is ridiculous but the idea that they should do it at a profit is in short offensive.

They said they were custodians........so now is the time to prove they aren't mercenaries.

scotty said...

revenge of the sith was ok.....

scotty said...

revenge of the sith was ok......yoda rocked!!

scotty said...

what utter rubbish....sos distanced themselves from the munich songs sung at THEIR party....its easy to say "wasnt me gov" after the fact....a guy from sos was on sky sports news AT THE PROTEST yesterday...they are clowns who claim to speak for all liverpool fans....NOT IN MY NAME THANK YOU VERY MUCH

Chris said...

More lies coming out from this joker, who claims to support Liverpool.
I am shame of half these these people who have posted on this thread you should know better than to listen to a manc

Jon said...

Liverpudlians are still the majority of the matchgoing support. I am OOT myself, but it would be monstrously arrogant of me to claim that the club does not belong to Liverpool. The heart of the club is scouse. And the values that made the club special were scouse.

Talking about the worldwide fanbase is sophistry. Without the Liverpool heart of the club, it would just be another franchise.

Hello World said...

Instead of hiding behind a blanket statement and labelling everything a lie, how about pointing out what you constitute a lie and then maybe there could be a bit of debate on whether this or that is in fact untrue.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

They are only the majority of the matchgoing support because of a locational advantage.  Just because people who live in Liverpool go to matches does not make them 'better' fans.  there are millions of people across the globe who would go to every match if it was possible; it is not.

Jon said...

The people who attand matches through the wind and the rain are more than exploiting a locational advantage.

Liverpool is more than just club that plays football. It is the heartbeat of a community. Distant fans are important, but you cannot equate them with the people who make every match. Watching at home is just not the same thing.

Dobby said...

Where is the proof SOS organised it.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Whether they actually organised it or not is irrelevant:

* SOS created the xenophobic anti-American sentiment with their 'Yanks Out' approach.

* SOS banners were tied to the railings whilst the 'protest' was going on. SSN showed video footage of this.

* SOS members planned the protest on RAWK (Visit that site yourself - I won't post links there)

SOS are enablers - they've whipped up fans into an frenzy of misguided, xenophobic rage, and the result was the flag-burning fiasco last night.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

What does attending matches when it's raining and windy have to do with anything?  So fans live in Liverpool have to put up with horrific turmoil of watching football in the rain?  Big deal.

You're just not getting it:  the majority of the fanbase has no choice but to watch games on TV. People that live in Liverpool have an instant advantage over non-UK fans. This is obvious.  This advantage does not make them better fans.

Additionally, there are thousands of Reds who fly halfway around the world just to watch Liverpool play.  That's a far bigger sacrifice in terms of cost and time than simply getting on a bus to Anfield.

Kopstick said...

Which is why it is all the worse.
What will normal everyday American's who don't know what is going on think of Liverpool supporters.

Rob said...

Clearing up misconceptions? You think claiming these fans are burning the american flag because they hate americans, claiming that people who live near liverpool are super fans and xenophobic, and that SOS are dragging the name of Liverpool through the mud, do you think that is clearing up misconceptions?

Have you actually been on Rawk? There are forums and topics for all sorts of things. There are barcelona fans and madrid fans. There are fans from all sorts of clubs and places and identities. How on earth you can make out that RAWK is some online cult is beyond me. And no, as much as this site inspires debate, RAWK has alot more information on it purely because it is a much much bigger. If you went on there, you would know that.

As for the SOS link being debatable and tenuous, I would agree if there was a shred of evidence of any kind of 'link' whatsoever. And sorry, what evidence is there that SOS members  or exectutives were enforcing it at all?

This topic is about clearing up misconceptions? Are you joking?

Max said...

What does it matter when I turned on Rafa? Did he go at the time I turned on him? So does that not intitle the next manager to have the same amount of time that Rafa has had? Do I have the powers to sack anyone at the club?

"What happens is he doesn't win anything for those 6 years?"
In all fairness, I will give the next manager the same amount of time as what Rafa has had even if he didnt 'win anything' (which I wouldnt ever wish on our next manager) otherwise there would have been no point in me calling for Rafa's head now would there?

Max said...

longchalk

This is Jaimie's site, he will write whatever he likes. Please mate, if you do not like what is being clouded here then disapear.

Nobody is asking you to comment on the articles, are they? 

Chris said...

Is right, I'd rather be in the championship, with a mostly local fanbase, than a Debt ridden club supported by clueless people from all over the world.

Chris said...

Note, im not trying to say i don't agree with out of town fans i'm just saying the amount and how the local fan has been surrounded out is in my opinion bad for the traditions of the club.

Chris said...

He didn't lose the dressing room it's a 'media-myth' as jaimie likes to say quotes from players beg to differ.

Chris said...

It was not SOS led though, you can say there members were there but it was not led by them. Also 'Yanks Out' wasn't a term thought up by SOS, many people say it who are fed up of the owners and not a memer of the SOS, banners may have been there but it does not mean it was SOS led. An there is nothing xenophobic in the chanting of 'Yanks out' when it means 'The Two Yanks Out' anyone with any connection to the club knows what it means and shouldn't be offended, anyone else i couldn't care less about and before this they probably couldn't care less about us, it is the same with the burning of the flag, those who know the club know what it is about, anyone else i don't care about as they are nothing to do with the club.

Jim b said...

You're just another joke armchair gloryhunter.

Jim b said...

Wools Out

U.S. Everton fan said...

One of the people who post on an Everton board I wrote posted on this event.  Here is my comment.

<span>Here is my $.02 on flag burning.

Flag burning was used by those Americans against the war in Vietnam to voice their opinion regarding that war. It was protected by the Supreme Court of the U. S. as speech, so I would not make it unlawful. However, and this is a big however in my opinion you are responsible for your speech and when you spit on, burn or destroy a flag that is a comment as much about its people as its government.

Those speakers are upset about a football team, a diversion, a way to enjoy time away from work. And I as much as any Brit, Spaniard, or Italian live for my football, but it just does not rise to the level of the Vietnam, Afghan, Iraq war or the BP oil spill in the gulf for that matter.

As John Locke would say and I summarize, the law (in the US) requires the government to protects their right to this speech, it does not require citizens to engage or befriend the speakers and it allows citizens to marginalize and despise (sp) these speakers -- as long as no one gets hurt. I think Locke has it right. They should be shouted down not for their opinion on football, but for their elevation to a flag burning level of such a petty issue.</span>

U.S. Everton fan said...

Toffee fan apologized for the flag burning on a board I follow and here is this American's response from that board.

<span>

Flag burning was used by those Americans against the war in Vietnam to voice their opinion regarding that war. It was protected by the Supreme Court of the U. S. as speech, so I would not make it unlawful. However, and this is a big however in my opinion you are responsible for your speech and when you spit on, burn or destroy a flag that is a comment as much about its people as its government.

Those speakers are upset about a football team, a diversion, a way to enjoy time away from work. And I as much as any Brit, Spaniard, or Italian live for my football, but it just does not rise to the level of the Vietnam, Afghan, Iraq war or the BP oil spill in the gulf for that matter.

As John Locke would say and I summarize, the law (in the US) requires the government to protects their right to this speech, it does not require citizens to engage or befriend the speakers and it allows citizens to marginalize and despise (sp) these speakers -- as long as no one gets hurt. I think Locke has it right. They should be shouted down not for their opinion on football, but for their elevation to a flag burning level of such a petty issue.</span>

longchalk said...

rather tiresome your input as usuall max.

I know u wud prefer astute commentators to disapear!
however its a free world despite your tactics.

if people didnt comment the writer wudnt even have a website, it is peoples input that makes this or any other arena of interest.

longchalk said...

not condoning the flag issue
however a member of a top uk 'legitimate' parliment was present at the protest.
as so many other sensible supporters.
my point being focusing on the flag issue alone is avoiding the true fear the fans have and why they where there.
the situation needs perspective not daily mail style panic headlines.

Chris said...

Exactly, no need for the over sensationalising of it, tension was high and everyone was angry at the owners for the right reasons, that's the only thing to to it.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Sensationalising?  Hmmm - when SOS and the anti-Owner brigade stop:

1. Sensationalising/exaggerating Liverpool's debt/interest figures

2. Pushing the (false) LFC doomsday scenario agenda.

3. Start telling the truth in a fair manner about the club.

...then maybe I will stop highlighting stuff like this ;)

Until that time, every single thing that I can do to create negative publicity for SOS will be done.  After all, that is *exactly* what they are doing for the club - creating negative publicity.

U.S. Everton fan said...

XYZ see my original comment under my Nickname.

I find it ridiculous that the U.S. flag is being burned for something so petty.  Nobody is dieing, being shot at, being persecuted.  This is not a war or a huge oil spill, the subject matter is football club and its owners not something worth burning a flag over.

Chris said...

And so they should, the club as it is now is not as i remember it.

longchalk said...

please before this mushrooms into a side show, lets all get perspective.
we are at a critical stage here and detracting away from with an isolated incident is not the liverpool way,
this is not a big brother state despite servants in power trying to stop us painting our houses a certyain colour or outlawing firemen to use ladders! (im not kidding)
people will protest and get carried away, is that very person going to kidnap one of the owners - no of course not its nonsence to suggest this.Inflamaory comments or highlighting such incidents willl only add to our woes.
how about posotive issues to alleviate the turmoil.
How is the cash we need going to be provided ?
will the club officials give us assurances on player retention ?
ive not seen much to calm fans , so no wonder doom mongers strike a cord with people.
also I dont see much in the offering about our actual debts, its been stated selling may take some time so in the interim what are they doing to steady the ship? again ive heard squat!

longchalk said...

with respect
no one in thier right mind should compare the 'small' protest last night and the subsequent flag issue - with global/political conflicts.
this is getting out of hand,
This does not need a mary whitehouse type to frog march into the headmasters room and tell some tales!
Americans by nature are protective who isnt!? but lets just pause for a moment - this is a local small protest aimed at the US owners no one else, thier names clearlly shown on the flag.
Foolish as it may have been it was done with passion and genuine heart felt despiration.
The UKs passion for football shud be looked on as a blessing not a rod to beat someone with
lets move on from it we have bigger fish to deal with
,

Hello World said...

Agreed.  It is being a bit overblown but it was definitely a shameful and disgraceful display by the protesters.

It will die down in a few days time though, so no biggie.

U.S. Everton fan said...

I have no quarrel with your position or with the anger of the protesters.  I think it ill advised to burn a flag to express the anger.  I think it bad judgment for a "<span>member of a top uk 'legitimate' parliment </span>" to be in attendance. 

And as a practical matter, if the flag burning keeps a bullet from being shot at someone, violence/injury being visited on someone who is for or against the protesters, or property from being destroyed, I think it is a better vehicle for dissent than the former.

In my opinion it is juvenile, grand standing and largely inneffective in bring about its end, but largely effective in bringing about contempt and ridicule for Liverpool FC fans.

U.S. Everton fan said...

Regarding 
"T<span>his is not a big brother state despite servants in power trying to stop us painting our houses a certyain colour or outlawing firemen to use ladders! (im not kidding)  "</span>

Isn't the Britain, London specifically (what's a few hundred kilometers between friends) the country/city with the most Closed Circuit TV installations in the world?  Seems to me it is.  But that is beside the point.

Football to the fans, may be the best thing in their life; but I'd wager to a lot of the owners (Ibramovich not withstanding) that it is a way to make money.   If Liverpool puts out a crappy product, the value of the owner's investment is decreased and they make less money. Such is the vagaries of the market.  The market will reward the good owners and punish the bad ones.

I am hoping I don't see a response that says that the owners are obliged by there ownership to keep the fans happy.  Blechh

JamieKisagobshite said...

I ain't seen so much tripe (mainly from Jamie) since the last time I went on Redcafe.
How much have H+G paid you to be their PR?

Dax said...

Spot on as ever Jamie, Spirit of Shankly are a bigger embarrassment to our club than Benitez was 

Anyone see that nobhead spokesman from SOS on sky news, if idiots like him profess to be the future of the club i'm handing back my season ticket

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Not enough ;-)

baseless opinion masquerading as fact said...

"Furthermore, without the worldwide supporter bases spending millions every year on merchandise etc, the club would've withered and died years ago," says Jaimie Kanwar, scourge of misinformation.

"Liverpool based-fans are the minority; the non-UK based worldwide support is the majority."

Strangely, though, the 2009 accounts (the ones Jaimie so avidly read) show this:
Turnover 2009: £177.3m
By geography: UK £173m       Worldwide: £4.3m

Turnover 2008: £159m
By geography: UK £157.3m    Worldwide: £1.7m

But of course, without the worldwide supporter base spending £5.7m in two years LFC would have "withered and died years ago".

Non-UK based worldwide support may be in the majority. But I blame that on "locational advantage". They still make up less than 2.5 per cent of the club turnover.

Burn baby burn said...

To be honest if those idiots wanted to burn a flag they should have burnt ye're lovely union jack as david moores has as much to blame for the state that Liverpool are in at the moment.Under Moores Liverpool declined and failed to adapt to the commercialsm of football in the sky era. Moores was the man culpable for selling to H+G. H+G are parasites of the highest order but do not forget who let them into Liverpool:David Moores.

longchalk said...

<span>

please dont continue to take things out of context -
how is a genuine fan/season ticket holder supposed to know 1 or 2 will go over the top? - whatever group they maybe a member off! they are entitled to attend whatever 'rally' they see fit.
I am also struggling to stomach any moralistic lecturing from America of all nations!
Perhaps best there should be an end to this type of incident and also a cease fire on any inflammatory retaliation from others.
Our beloved club is facing an uncertain future and we need steady minds to guide us….. Have we got them behind board room doors? Dalglish will help however it’s the uncertain nature that’s shrouded us that alarms me.
One big concern I have is the new youth system set up by rafa, great effort has been put into this with the staff recruited from Barcelona etc.. implementing this long term project needs comitment, With the ethos on producing local/UK base players its potential was undeniable, what will happen to this now. Again the concern is a financial one , Also the people rafa himself brought to us for this will they follow onto rafas nxt post? We need assurances from the club and what do we get …………! all ive heard is silence - again no communication to the fans , it’s not good enough,
</span><span><span>

 
</span></span><span></span>
<span></span>

RedJohn40 said...

For want of a more appropriate post to include this on, I'll do it here. Probably the best summary of our current situation I've read:

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html

TinkerTailor said...

<span>Bullshit. RAWK is a regime. Anyone who fails to speak of their beloved ex-leader in glowing, flowery terms, or deviates from their footballing political and philosophical regimen, is ridiculed and either banned or hounded right off the forum. The place is populated with bitter, delusional self-aggrandising twats, who if not frothing at the mouth at the global anti-LFC conspiracy, are posting bloated and embarrassing eulogies about the Liverpool way in betwixt wishing death, injury and misfortune upon their perceived enemies. Oh, the irony! Some of the stuff I've read on there over the years is truly disgusting. A bunch of maggots with a bloated sense of sense of self-worth and entitlement is all they are. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>Yeah, and about SOS... Those good guys who put the nasty Steve Cohen back in his place and out of a job; one of them setting the whole thing in motion by posting revolting comments about Hillsborough under the guise of a Man United supporter on Cohen's comments page and then reposting as an outraged and horrified Liverpool fan. Utter, utter filth. <span> </span>  </span>
<p><span> </span>
</p>

TinkerTailor said...

<span>Bullshit. RAWK is a regime. Anyone who fails to speak of their beloved ex-leader in glowing, flowery terms, or deviates from their footballing political and philosophical regimen, is ridiculed and either banned or hounded right off the forum. The place is populated with bitter, delusional self-aggrandising twats, who if not frothing at the mouth at the global anti-LFC conspiracy, are posting bloated and embarrassing eulogies about the Liverpool way in betwixt wishing death, injury and misfortune upon their perceived enemies. Oh, the irony! Some of the stuff I've read on there over the years is truly disgusting. A bunch of maggots with a bloated sense of self-worth and entitlement is all they are. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>Yeah, and about SOS... Those good guys who put the nasty Steve Cohen back in his place and out of a job; one of them setting the whole thing rolling by posting revolting comments about Hillsborough under the guise of a Man United supporter on Cohen's comments page and then reposting as an outraged and horrified Liverpool fan. Utter, utter filth. <span> </span>  </span>
<p><span> </span></p>

TinkerTailor said...

<span>Bullshit. RAWK is a regime. Anyone who fails to speak of their beloved ex-leader in glowing, flowery terms, or deviates from their footballing political and philosophical regimen, is ridiculed and either banned or hounded right off the forum. The place is populated with bitter, delusional self-aggrandising twats, who if not frothing at the mouth at the global anti-LFC conspiracy, are posting bloated and embarrassing eulogies about the Liverpool way in betwixt wishing death, injury and misfortune upon their perceived enemies. Oh, the irony! Some of the stuff I've read on there over the years is truly disgusting. A bunch of maggots with a bloated sense of self-worth and entitlement is all they are. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>Yeah, and about SOS... those good guys who put the nasty Steve Cohen back in his place and out of a job; one of them setting the whole disgraceful episode in motion by posting revolting comments about Hillsborough under the guise of a Man United supporter on Cohen's comments page and then reposting as an outraged and horrified Liverpool fan. Utter, utter filth. <span> </span>  </span>
<p><span> </span></p>

Joey said...

The fact is that LFC belongs to the people of Liverpool. The local support is based on the pride the team brings to the city. For everything that is and was (particularly in the 80's) thrown at Liverpool the team has always been a source of pride. It's something a bit deeper than just choosing to support Liverpool in the same way you choose what socks to put on in the morning. LFC will always mean more to the local, passionate support than it ever could to any OOT. It's more than just a football club to the local fanbase.

CreativeRealist said...

I'm sure there were SOS members involved just as there will have been non-members. Do you know for a fact that the majority were members? I find it hard to credit anything you say when it's full of contradictions. On the one hand you are critical of the press for sensationalising the debt etc but with this story you are guilty of exactly the same thing. Could you provide a reasonable explanation as to why it's OK for you to take something and exagerate it but not other members of the press? For someone who claims to be a provider of truth to "the masses" this seems like a shocking double standard.

RafaCakes said...

<span>Bullshit. RAWK is a regime. Anyone who fails to speak of their beloved ex-leader in glowing, flowery terms, or deviates from their political and philosophical footballing regimen, is ridiculed and either banned or hounded right off the forum. The place is populated with bitter, delusional self-aggrandising twats, who if not frothing at the mouth at the global anti-LFC conspiracy, are posting bloated and embarrassing eulogies about the Liverpool way in betwixt wishing death, injury and misfortune upon their perceived enemies. Oh, the irony! Some of the stuff I've read on there over the years is truly disgusting. A bunch of maggots with a bloated sense of self-worth and entitlement is all that they are. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>Yeah, and about SOS... Those good guys who put the nasty Steve Cohen back in his place and out of a job; one of them deliberately set the whole despicable episode in motion by posting revolting comments about Hillsborough under the guise of a Man United supporter on Cohen's comments page and then immediately reposting as an outraged and horrified Liverpool fan so as to draw Cohen into a inflamed verbal confrontation. Utter, utter filth. <span> </span>  </span>

Fast East Red said...

Jaimie,

Everyone has their own way to get the message across. There is no right or wrong so long as it is not the criminal way. The world we've today is the evolution of all these type of protest.

Rob said...

Wow. The campaign against Steven Cohen wasnt started by SOS. It was started by Steven Cohen, and the RAWK and the American supporters group. And he isnt out of a job, he does podcasts where we dont have to hear his shit. Dearie me, do you actually know anything about him? Cohen started his bile because a Liverpool fan went on there to talk/banter/bait about history, but he went way over the line, and continued his tirade. He was repeatedly asked to apologise but didnt untill a minute long statement which he dismissed seconds later.


No, RAWK is not a regime. Have you been on there? There are supporters of all clubs on there. Now how on earth can there be a regime if there are all kinds of supporters from all over the place posting on there? Secondly, why would RAWK be so against anti-rafa sentiment and not everyone else to do with Liverpool?

Anfield Burning said...

Jaimie, this is how your article was recieved by RAWK:

 "I think most sensible reds know Mr Kanwar for the desperate self-publicist that he is.  I also think that most sensible reds know this sites stance on extremism of any kind and as such we have no interest in responding to Mr Kanwar's sad and inaccurate allegations.  He is not worth the switching of the pixels.  We have bigger fish to fry, people who are destroying the club we love. Let's concentrate our efforts on letting the world know that they are not welcome here and leave the likes of Mr Kanwar languishing in the unloved obscurity that they deserve."

Kem Lyn said...

Jamie, I think your problem is that you don't really understand what it is to be a supporter of a football club, Liverpool in particular.  You could probably be best classified as a follower, sure you like it when Liverpool do well but to you its just an interest you have rather than a central plank of your life, that's not a criticism, its probably quite healthy!  You have no real grasp of the emotions  which really supporting a club engenders, I don't blame you for that, it's just the way it is.  You plainly can't empathise with the actions of real Liverpool supporters.  I'm not 100% sure that burning the flag was necessarily a good idea, but I understand what drove people to do it.  You'll never truly 'get' the all encompassing passion which motivates the likes of SOS so I think its unwise of you to condemn what you don't understand.

On a slightly different point, Brian Reade's article today perfectly sums up my feelings, prior to Rafa, who would have dreamt that regularly being in Champions League finals & semi-finals would be a realsitic ambition at the start of each season?  Rafa's biggest mistake, it would seem, was to 'make us dream'.

Finally Jamie, I'd just like you to reflect that nothing in life is black & white, there are always shades of grey in between, alas, your polemical style seems to prevent you from adhering to this maxim.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Kem Lyn - Don't tell patronise me with the 'I don't know what it feels like to be a real fan' rhetoric.  You don't know my history; just because I have a different view of the club to you doesn't make it any less valid.  Or are you suggesting that every 'proper' Liverpool fan has a single, unified point of view?  I have a perfect understanding of the emotional side of supporting a club.

It's always the same, whether it's sport or polarizing ideology: if you don't follow the crowd and conform to the group you are deemed to be outside the group; incapable of really understanding what it's all about.

Anyone with any intelligence knows this is complete and utter crap.

If I was posting anit-H+G stuff all day and 'Benitez is God' articles every 5 minutes I would be accepted into the 'proper fan' clique without question.

And re the CL - of course CL qualification and progession was expected. You make it sound like Benitez is the only person who could've achieved that.  It was a natural progression.  Pr have you forgotten that Liverpool were banned from Europe for 6 years in the mid 80s?

It takes time to recover from that.  It takes time to build the club up again, and Gerard Houllier deserves just as much credit for making Liverpool a European force again. We qualified for ther CL 3 out of 6 seasons under Houllier - at that time, the club was still gradually getting to gruips with Europe again.  We won ther UEFA Sup, and made the Qtrs in 2002.  The European experience gained in thsat period was vitsal to the future success of the team.

Benitez has done well in the CL but the groundwork for success was laid for him by Houllier.  And on top of that, Benitez has had much more money to spend than Houllier, yet he still fsailed to qualify for the CL TWICE ('05 and '10) and we failed to get out of the first group stage twice.

And good performance in the CL is not the be all and end all: the league is the priority, and for the most part, Benitez's league performance has been pitiful.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Kem Lyn - Don't patronise me with the tiresome 'I don't know what it feels like to be a real fan' rhetoric.  You don't know my history; just because I have a different view of the club to you doesn't make it any less valid.  Or are you suggesting that every 'proper' Liverpool fan has a single, unified point of view?  I have a perfect understanding of the emotional side of supporting a club.  
 
It's always the same, whether it's sport or polarizing ideology: if you don't follow the crowd and conform to the group you are deemed to be outside the group; incapable of really understanding what it's all about.  
 
Anyone with any intelligence knows this is complete and utter crap.  
 
If I was posting anit-H+G stuff all day and 'Benitez is God' articles every 5 minutes I would be accepted into the 'proper fan' clique without question.  
 
And re the CL - of course CL qualification and progession was expected. You make it sound like Benitez is the only person who could've achieved that.  It was a natural progression.  Pr have you forgotten that Liverpool were banned from Europe for 6 years in the mid 80s?  
 
It takes time to recover from that.  It takes time to build the club up again, and Gerard Houllier deserves just as much credit for making Liverpool a European force again. We qualified for ther CL 3 out of 6 seasons under Houllier - at that time, the club was still gradually getting to gruips with Europe again.  We won ther UEFA Sup, and made the Qtrs in 2002.  The European experience gained in thsat period was vitsal to the future success of the team.  
 
Benitez has done well in the CL but the groundwork for success was laid for him by Houllier.  And on top of that, Benitez has had much more money to spend than Houllier, yet he still fsailed to qualify for the CL TWICE ('05 and '10) and we failed to get out of the first group stage twice.  
 
And good performance in the CL is not the be all and end all: the league is the priority, and for the most part, Benitez's league performance has been pitiful.

What you or anyone else thinks about me is irrelevant - I will continue to suport the club in my own way.  And if you don't like it, tough luck.

Kem Lyn said...

Jamie, I think you've illustrated my point perfectly.  There's nothing wrong with different points of view, your problem is that you don't understand why people have a different point of view to you, you can't seem to grasp what motivates them.

To my mind you see everything in absolute terms and that's why I think a lot of the debates degenerate in to puerile name calling. 


I disagree that an improvement in the CL was a 'natural progression', in my opinion this was pretty much wholly down to Rafa.  I also don't think its reasonable to compare spending over different eras as the market conditions aren't comparable.

We did qualify for Champions League in 05, as evinced by our appearance in the 05/06 competition.

When were the two occasions that Rafa failed to get us out of the CL group stages?  I can only recall this season (09/10), but I could be wrong.

To say that Rafa's performance in the league was pitiful is unfar.  Please can you define pitfiful?  I hardly think that our highest points haul in 22 years (08/09) can be defined as pitiful. 

09/10 was a poor season, you've no argument from me there, we should have done better and Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for this, but overall, I think we'd be much better off with him than without him.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

At Cornell University they have an incredible piece of scientific equipment known as the Tunneling Electron Microscope. Now, this microscope is so powerful that by firing electrons you can actually see images of the atom, the infinitesimally minute building blocks of our universe. , If I were using that microscope right now, I still wouldn't be able to locate my interest iwhat RAWK thinks about me.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

More assumptions.  I understand what motivates fans with a different opinion from me; I understand what drives them. That doesn't mean I have to act in the same way to express my support for the club.  I guess if some SOS fan asassinated Hicks, I'd have to support that.  If I didn't, someone somewhere would accuse me of not understanding how true fans feel.  Sounds far-fetched, right?  Wall, the same things happens with assassination of US Presidents, for example.  To this dfay, there are still some people who believe that the patriotic thing to do was assassinate Kennedy, and they believe that people who didn't support that action somehow don't understand what it means to be a 'true patriot'.

Without Houllier laying the groundwork in Europe (and players gaining experience), the CL would never have been won in 2005.  95% of the players who won that trophy had been blooded in Houllier's reign, and had gained the experience to do well. In no way is it 'wholly' down to Benitez.

Of course youj don't think it's reasonable to compsre spending - you support Benitez; a spending comnparison would deflate the 'legend' slightly, so let's not go there.

By pitiful, I generally refer to the 2 totally abject league seasons (04-5 and 09-10), and ther fact that Benitez has ultimately taken us backwards in the league.  We were 4th when he took over.  We're 7th and out of the CL now that he's left.  But let me guess: that's not his fault - it's H+G; Parry': Moores: the guy who cuts the grass.  Benitez had nothing to do with it.

Chris said...

We are 7th yes in one season but the squad is still there to finish in the top 4, although now that Rafa has gone it's looking increasingly like some of them will also go as Mascherano's comments prove today. I think wha Kem lyn is trying to say is you are a fan, not a supporter. Somebody who likes the club but doesn't neccasarily support it( i mean the definition of support as in to bear weight, hold something up). Something you don't see of Hicks and Gillete living outside of the city is the state Anfield is in, (the area, not he ground) people have been moved out of houses and many streets left to rot waiting for a new ground that should have started year, ago they have not just affected the club they have effected the surrounding areas, it angers me that two American businessmen can come i na destroy my club and part of the city, the two thing i love in life most, because of this tensions get high and people are angry, the burning of the flag happened yes, it might have been the wrong thing to do, but it was for the right reasons. It also gained lots of exposure in the US with many Liverpool fans not taking offence if you read the US blogs and Forums as they know what it is about,

hypocrisy in action said...

I notice that the comments policy says that factual argument is allowed but people using 'sniping' or 'derogatory comments' are banned.

Jaimie Kanwar's opening response on page one of this thread immediately calls the poster 'a tedious superfan' and at the end 'ignorant'.

Is he banned yet?

Paul said...

Ok something doesn't quite add up here. Let's put things in layman's terms, H+G purchased the club without putting in a cent from their own pocket right? They opened up a joint company with which they purchased LFC and put all the borrowings on that company. Regardless of what LFCAGL is doing, surely that company is paying interest on some mega loan. What interest is THAT company paying i.e. Kop holdings ltd and/or Kop football ltd. I'm not asking if there's any danger of the club going bancrupt. In my opinion Kop Football, Kop Holdings and LFCAGL combine to = "LFC" and I am interested in knowing what interest all 3 pay to banks NOT eachother.

Kem Lyn said...

I don't recall saying that you have to act in the same way as other fans (or, as you refer to them in the article 'fans').  If you truly understood their motivation then you wouldn't condemn them in such hysterical terms (which, in my opinion, does absolutely nothing to raise the level of debate)

Your assasination comments? A complete straw man argument.  Not worth dignifying.  You've let yourself down there.

Ged did a lot of good work for Liverpool, and I take your point that the players did gain European experience under him.  However, I maintian my view that without Rafa we would not have won the CL in 05 or had the subsequent decent performances in the competition.   You seem to be arguing that anybody could have come in and would have won the 05 CL.

I don't think its fair to compare Rafa & Ged's spending because they operated in different market conditions. I can't really put it more plainly than that.  The world record transfer fee during Ged's era was £46 million, its now £80 million. 

09/10 was a poor season for us, and I'm not sure why you say that I say that it was everybody's fault other than Rafa's when I clearly wrote that he has to shoulder some of the blame.  I do think though that the other factors you mention also played a part in our poor performance.  In the interests of balance :We got more points, won more games, scored more goals & conceded less goals in 09/10 than in 03/04 (though we did lose one more game). 

Can you let me know the other season (apart from 09/10) that Rafa didn't get us out of the CL group stages?  I just can't think which year it was.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I will respond to this later.
Sent using BlackBerry� from Orange

red said...

well the organization mostly come from the minorities of lpool supporter within uk, but i read a website called RAWK and the pure hatred there is unbelievable

Chris said...

Thanks Hicks And Gillet.

Liverpool Tickets said...

I can understand the sheer anger at the owners but to burn a flag is the wrong move, dont target a country for the actions of two idiots.

The Irish Rover said...

Jamie!! I'm pretty new to this site, but I have read your articles, most of which are very informative, such as Liverpools actual debt & transfer activity. I notice you where obviously not a fan of Rafa. My question to you is has your anti Rafa crusade only started this year when things have went pear shaped & also who do you think will do a better job than Rafa, not over one season but over a period of time. My personal opinion is that unless your going to replace with someone better, which IMO there isn't any at the moment, hiddink, mouhinho, capello etc all taken & O'Niel, Hodgson etc no where near good enough. Who is your choice for manager. Regards The Irish Rover

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Hi there.  if you ask anyone who is familiar with this site (or my writing), they will tell you that my criticism of Benitez started years ago, not just this last year. 

Instead of just dismissing O'Neill/Hodgson, why don't you explain *why* they're apparently not good enough (without the usual cliches if possible).

The idea that Liverpool need a superstar manager is nonsense.  What had Bill Shankly sone before Liverpool?  Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish had no managerial experience.  Whenever we've had a manager who comes with a big reputation/previous success, it's always ended in league failure (Souness, Houllier and Benitez).

Ferguson was in the SPL before man U; Wenger was in Japan.  They did well enough.

What management experience did Blanc and Guardiola have before taking the plunge?  None.  Didn't do them any harm.

Sounds to me like you and others are just calling for an superstar manager because you think that's what *should* happen.

We need a motivator like O'Neill.  And *when* he gets the job, I will be proved right.  O'Neill will be a major success at Anfield.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

The person who posted the response *is* a tedious superfan, and is clearly ignorant, so I was merely stating a fact :)

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Chris - this has to be the lowest accusation yet. Hicks and Gillett responsible for destroying neighbourhoods around Anfield?!   What rubbish.  Don't let the truth get in the way of the facts.  The new stadium - and it's negative impact on the local community - is a long running issue that started years before H+G even arrived.

This is a snippet from an article by David Conn of The Guardian:

The football club's role in this neighbourhood's decline and planned resurrection has been a long-running issue. Many residents bitterly resented the club, a decade ago, for buying up houses on Skerries Road, next to Anfield, and leaving them empty in case the club ever wanted to knock the row down and expand the stadium. Then, in 2000, there was uproar about leaked plans worked up by Liverpool and the city council, without consultation, to build a new stadium and, in the process, demolish 1,800 houses.

These facts arre true, as I've researched the situation myself in the past. Hicks and Gillett have nothing to do with it.  The situation existed before they arrived.  The worldwide credit crunch screwed up the stadium plans, and the club had to redesign the whole thing after the first stadium project (led by Parry) had to be scrapped.

Your view on this is just another example of how fans twist the truth and use anything they can to try and place H=G in a bad light.  it really is quite sad the lengths people are willing to go to.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Re the flag burning: I feel my reaction is completely justified, and I know other fans feel the same way about the incident. My reaction was not hysterical at all - you put it that way because you can't understand how people can feel outraged by such a ridiculous act.

Benitez deserves credit for the 2005 CL, but i the context of his reign, it was a very lucky win.  The FA Cup win a year later back sup this view - it was also a lucky win, and like Istanbul, it took penalties to win it.

What has the world record transfer fee int he respective eras of Houllier and Benitez got to di with anything?  46m adjusted for inflation is a lot more money today than it was back then. The fact is, Benitez has had much more money to spend than Houllier. 

09/10 was a season that was always going to happen under Benitez.  The warning signs were there in the 2004-5 league season (which was terrible).  All of Benitez's flaws as a manager came home to roost and Liverpool suffered as a result. 

Re your comparison with 2003-4 - we might have won more games and scored more goals  but none of that matters. Houllier qualified for the CL; Benitez didn't, and that will have  major knock on effect on the club's turnover.  We also lost 6 more games this year in all competitions, not just 1.

Re the CL: I was wrong - in 2005-6 we went out with a whimper in the first knockout stage against Benfica, which was pretty poor considering how hard everyone lobbied for the club to be allowed to defend the trophy.

Chris said...

I know people who have been kicked out in last 6 months, the stadium Hicks & Gillet suggested was bigger so more houses had to be bought i'm not saying it was right for Moores and Parry to do but it was wrong for Hicks And Gillet to do aswell.  Neighbourhoods are crumbling yes and they promised that we would have anew modern ANfiled(Area not ground) but it hasnt't come i believe 60 days was the time frame given to start i may be wrong. I couldn't care less about recession if they were going to start within 2months as they said surely some sort of downpayment was there so they could start i know when i had an extension built last year i had to pay 2 months for materials etc. Also in a tottaly unrelated point, somebody mentioned to me that we have spent over 50 million(around 50 million, i have seen from earlier articles how pedantic you like to be) on the new stadium in the account(not sure if it was 50 million this year or in the 3 years Hicks and Gillet have been here). Could you do an article on that adn show the breakdown or a comment here. I'd be really intriuged as to what we've spent 50 million on because we have absolutely nothing to show for it apart from a  few out of date plans.

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