27 May 2010

EXCLUSIVE: Rafa Benitez vs. Arsene Wenger - Transfer spending comparison (2004-2010)

In the second article of a 7 part series, I take a look at how Rafa Benitez's transfer spending between 2004 and 2009 compares to Arsene Wenger's spending over the same period.

SERIES GOAL


* To accurately report the gross/net spend of the UK's top clubs since 2004.

* To dispel the myth, exaggeration and misinformation surrounding the transfer spending of the UK's top clubs.

* To finally bring clarity and accuracy to this area so that future debates about transfer spending can be based in fact, not generalisation and biased opinion.

* Liverpool and Arsenal have slightly different accounting years:

Liverpool: 31 July - 31 July
Man United: 31 May - 31 May

* I have omitted transfer activity (both teams) for accounting year 2009-10 as neither clubs' accounts for that year are available until 2011. Consequently, there is no way to be 100% sure about the figures.

* The transfer of Xabi Alonso took place after the 2008 accounting deadline, which is why it's not included here. I will update the transfer spending table when the 2009-10 accounts are released.

* This series is NOT an attack on Rafa Benitez. The comparisons to be undertaken are regularly requested by visitors to this site.

* These stats have never been compiled before online.

Rafa BENITEZ vs. ARSENE WENGER: 2004-2009

Photobucket

Jaimie Kanwar


149 comments:

  1. Class manager Wenger, hope he wins something big with his young talent template.

    I think the trouble with it is as his young stars mature they get frustrated with the policy like Fabregas is now as they want to be playing with senior players, they move and he replaces with them with another youngster and they take a step backwards. He needs a core of more experienced players. Having said that it's unclear how much money he has but it's hinted that he wouldn't spend it if he had it. He does benefit from absolute board backing and he is a media darling. It would be nice to see Rafa take more of a chance on youth rather than signing the likes of Degan, Dossena etc

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  2. Isn't this an unfair comparison in that Arsene Wenger by 2004 had had time to build his youth system up and also had most of his big transfers earlier in his time at Arsenal. Arsenal spent (approx) £5m on Ramsey and £10m on Walcott - two very good prospects but are none the less youth players at their time of purchase. Liverpool have spent £5m - £8m approx on most of their youth players in that time (approx once again).
    Wouldn't it be slightly fairer to compare Wengers earlier years (when he too was rebuilding and didn't have access to a decent youth system) and factor in inflation. Players such as Jeffers, Richard Wright, Wiltord, Pennant, and also the amount of youth players that never made it. Also Arsenal haven't won anything since 2004. 

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  3. Wenger has put a lot of time and effort into his youth policy but his refusal to spend on experience costs them season after season.

    Clearly with the inclusion of Alonso's sale in here our net would be lower still and that's an embarrassment a club of our size has to work on such a poor net.

    I think this only serves to highlight the top job Rafa is doing.  To have a net spend so low during his time here when he inherited an extremely poor side including the likes of Traore, Diao, Diouf, Smicer, Biscan etc shows we have to put our faith in him.

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  4. Jaimie, great compiling. Could we see a column that has league finish aswell. Might help give an indication of how well the money has been spend.

    I think we all have to cencede that aw is probably the most efficient operator in the marketplace. He's just brilliant.

    The only thing I would say is that these figure don't account for is the standard of player available in the first period for the respective managers to sell.

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  5. Always good to see how Wenger manages to achieve what he does but I think it's a bit of an oversight not to include wages in these spending comparisons. It could make things a bit more interesting.

    Wenger has spent over £60m more than Rafa on wages in the same period. The sources are out there. Wages are part of the transfer budget for most clubs and to ignore them is a wee bit dubious, imo.

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  6. Always good to see how Wenger manages to achieve what he does on a relative shoe-string, but, I think it's a bit of an oversight not to include wages in these spending comparisons. It could make things a bit more interesting. 
     
    Wenger has spent about £60m more than Rafa on wages in the same period. The sources are out there. Wages are part of the transfer budget for most clubs and to ignore them is a wee bit dubious, imo.

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  7. There's always an excuses, isn't there?!  With the Benitez-Ferguson comparison it was 'but United had a better squad in 2004'.  Now it's this.  get over it: Wenger has spent less, has a lower net spend (!) and still manages to play better football and do better in the league overall.

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  8. @Rich
    Half of that extremely poor side won us the Champion League. Did a top job Rafa hand pick side won us a Champion League? Why there are still fans out there that insist on believing that Rafa can do the job, when he's proven in his years in liverpool that the best he can do is a second in the league. Time to move on Rafa.

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  9. So basically, in 2003-2004 Arsenal went unbeaten and won the league whereas Liverpool. At the end of that season Benitez joined Liverpool, a team with stars such as Treore, Biscan, Diouf, Dioa, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Cheyrou, Vignol, Luzi, Kirkland, Heskey, Smicer and Baros to name a few... ie the worst squad any Liverpool manager has ever inherited. Arsenal on the other hand had the best squad they've ever had.

    by the end of 2009 Liverpool finished the season 2nd just 2 points behind United and Arsenal (a team previously light years ahead) were languishing far behind. That was achieved with a total spend of £63.8 million! Now it should not be forgotten that Arsenal's net spend was acheived by selling mediocer players for astronomical fees to clubs such as Barcelona, Chelsea and Real. Until Rafa got rid of Alonso for 200% more than he paid for him he had to make do with just being happy getting rid of the crap he inherited for anything at all.

    Additionally, Rafa has occassionally bought some BAD players but he certainly doesn't suffer fools kindly (with the exception of Kuyt) he generally sells bad players within a season of buying them and gererally makes a profit on them (Keane, Morientes and Dossena excluded)

    A net spend of circa £70m is miniscule when you consider what United, City, Chelsea and Tottenham have spent. So this basically backs up Rafa as a good manager.

    However, last season was pretty diabolical and the fans are baying for blood. If Liverpool haven't got money to spend, as John Barnes said "Whats the point of changing the manager?"

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  10. So basically, in 2003-2004 Arsenal went unbeaten and won the league whereas Liverpool were nowhere (as usual under Houllier). At the end of that season Benitez joined Liverpool, a team with stars such as Treore, Biscan, Diouf, Dioa, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Cheyrou, Vignol, Luzi, Kirkland, Heskey, Smicer and Baros to name a few... ie the worst squad any Liverpool manager has ever inherited. Arsenal on the other hand had the best squad they've ever had.  
     
    by the end of 2009 Liverpool finished the season 2nd just 2 points behind United and Arsenal (a team previously light years ahead) were languishing far behind. That was achieved with a total spend of £63.8 million! Now it should not be forgotten that Arsenal's net spend was acheived by selling mediocer players for astronomical fees to clubs such as Barcelona, Chelsea and Real. Until Rafa got rid of Alonso for 200% more than he paid for him he had to make do with just being happy getting rid of the crap he inherited for anything at all.  
     
    Additionally, Rafa has occassionally bought some BAD players but he certainly doesn't suffer fools kindly (with the exception of Kuyt) he generally sells bad players within a season of buying them and gererally makes a profit on them (Keane, Morientes and Dossena excluded)  
     
    A net spend of circa £70m is miniscule when you consider what United, City, Chelsea and Tottenham have spent. So this basically backs up Rafa as a good manager.  
     
    However, last season was pretty diabolical and the fans are baying for blood. If Liverpool haven't got money to spend, as John Barnes said "Whats the point of changing the manager?"

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  11. So basically, in 2003-2004 Arsenal went unbeaten and won the league whereas Liverpool were nowhere (as usual under Houllier). At the end of that season Benitez joined Liverpool, a team with stars such as Treore, Biscan, Diouf, Dioa, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Cheyrou, Vignol, Luzi, Kirkland, Heskey, Smicer and Baros to name a few... ie the worst squad any Liverpool manager has ever inherited. Arsenal on the other hand had the best squad they've ever had.  
     
    By the end of 2009 Liverpool finished the season 2nd just 2 points behind United and Arsenal (a team previously light years ahead) were languishing far behind. That was achieved with a total net spend of £63.8 million! Now it should not be forgotten that Arsenal's net spend was acheived by selling mediocer players for astronomical fees to clubs such as Barcelona, Chelsea and Real. Until Rafa got rid of Alonso for 200% more than he paid for him he had to make do with just being happy getting rid of the crap he inherited for anything at all.  
     
    Additionally, Rafa has occassionally bought some BAD players but he certainly doesn't suffer fools kindly (with the exception of Kuyt) he generally sells bad players within a season of buying them and makes a profit on them (Keane, Morientes and Dossena excluded).
     
    A net spend of circa £70m is miniscule when you consider what United, City, Chelsea and Tottenham have spent. So this basically backs up Rafa as a good manager.  
     
    However, last season was pretty diabolical and the fans are baying for blood. If Liverpool haven't got money to spend, as John Barnes said "Whats the point of changing the manager?"

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  12. "better football"? does that have any meaning beyond winning stuff?

    They don't really do any better than we do in the league.

    We've finished ahead of arsenal 3 times (5/6, 6/7, 8/9) and they finished  above us 3 times. We have also split the big2 (08/09) - something that arsenal hasn't done since 4/5. We have also won more and "better" trophies in that time, and reached more finals.

    Arsenals "big achievement" is not to drop out of the CL-places.

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  13. a wee bit dubious?

    its very dubious imo. especially when we're talking about ~10m every single season for AW, and more like 30-40m every single season for CFC and MUFC

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  14. You are completely wrong about salaries - please don't make generalisations without proof. In any event, the salary argument is irrelevent here.  It doesn't change the fact that Wenger's net spend is minscule compared to Benitez.

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  15. I've updated the table to include league finishes ;)


    If anyone thinks of any other relevant columns that could be included, just let me know.

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  16. Not an excuse, you've just massaged wheat data to use to make your argument seem better. "better in the league overall":
    2004/5 - Arsenal 2nd Liverpool 5th (won CL)
    2005/6 - Arsenal 4th Liverpool 3rd (Won FA Cup)
    2006/7 - Arsenal 4th Liverpool 3rd
    2007/8 - Arsenal 3rd Liverpool 4th
    2008/9 - Arsenal 4th Liverpool 2nd
    2009/10 - Arsenal 3rd Liverpool 7th

    Other than this year there is not too much difference, and out of 6 seasons Benitez has come above Wenger as many times as Wenger finished above him, plus he's won two trophies. One which Wenger has NEVER one!!! "it was 'but United had a better squad in 2004'" - that's not an excuse IT'S A TRUTH!!! This lack of understanding about football worries me about you and show no skill at constructive debate and merely a one trick pony.  

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  17. Yes, but Alonso's sale would be countered by the money spent on Aquilani, Krgiakos and Jonjo Shelvey, not to mention any money spent between now and July 31st.

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  18. Wenger has won the league 3 times and finished 2nd about 7 times, all with miniscule net spend. The best that Benitez has managed is 2nd. Once.

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  19. And if winning the title is not an option, I would rather I had to watch superb football rather than the boring anti-football served up by Benitez.

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  20. I tend to agree. The difference in net spend on players looks a lot different when wages are factored in. Like you said Arsenal outspend Liverpool by at least £10m each year on wages, which would bring the spends to very similar amounts with Rafa having actually won things in the last 6 years compared to Wenger.

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  21. so lets me try to understand what you are saying here with a very simple example


    You have been living in your house for around 10 years, in that time you have developed it the way you want it.....

    This year, I decide to move into a new house....

    Will our spending be the same? not in a million years.

    Rafa has made mistakes in the transfer market...everyone does. even wenger. But its not fair to compare transfer success that way. you could also say that wenger has only won the FA cup since Rafa has taken over as manager. Rafa has won the champs league and FA Cup. not much...but still better.

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  22. to say they are "irrelevant" is a ridiculous statement as net spend MUST include salaries.

    my numbers are based on Deloitte figures for the last 4 seasons excluding 9/10. You're saying these are completely wrong?

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  23. Jaimie, the excuses will never stop.

    You know what is funniest part of it all? I just had Anfield81 asking me not to turn the Benitez vs Sir Alex spending into a Benitez debate. Can you f****** believe that.

    Jaimie, make your HEADING 5 times the size it is now cause some people cannot read the following

    <span>Rafa Benitez vs. Alex Ferguson - Transfer spending comparison (2004-2009)</span>
    Who is the debate about then?

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  24. Doot - please explain how wages have anything to do with a manager's performance in the transfer market?  You're just trying to muddy the waters, like most people who defend Benitez.

    Wenger had a minus net spend for 3 out of 5 years - what do wages have to do with that?

    The truth is, even if I'd included wages, you and the other Benitez supporters would've come up with some other excuse.

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  25. No!  A statement on net spend does NOT have to include salaries.  Who says this is the case?  It's an absolute myth, perpetuated by people who are desperate to defend Benitez at all costs. 

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  26. My comment re salaries was directed at Doot, who claims Arsenal have spent 60m more on wages than LFC.  This is simply not true.

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  27. JK, please explain why you think you can possibly separate wages from transfer fees?

    they both come from the same pot

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  28. Has he won the league since the emergence of Chelsea as a major financial force??

    No

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  29. The point is that you and other Benitez fans will *never* just accept the simple facts.  You could just gracefully accept that Wenger is superior in the transfer market, but no - you have to come up woith endless excuses and exceptions to try and prove that Benitez has somehow been hard-done by somewhere along the line.

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  30. one minute you say it's from 2004, then you go back further when it suits you. Make your mind up and then perhaps there can be reasonable debate rather than you acting like a child with his fingers in his ears pretending not to here the truth!!

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  31. Max

    Your a crisp packet. Go home and put your feet up before you cause yourself a heart attack.

    x

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  32. why dont you just go and support arsenal then?????

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  33. Wenger has won the league 3 times overall - he has earned the right to have a period of trying build something based on youth.  That's the point.  If Benitez had won the league three times, or even just once, this would be a non-issue.

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  34. Yes, I agree Max.  The post is obviously meant to provoke debate about Benitez v Ferguson (!).

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  35. @Rich 
    Half of that extremely poor side won us the Champion League. Did a top job Rafa hand pick side won us a Champion League? Why there are still fans out there that insist on believing that Rafa can do the job, when he's proven in his years in liverpool that the best he can do is a second in the league. Time to move on Rafa.

    Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-arsene-wenger.html#ixzz0p7p6MHKQ

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  36. Nonetheless Jaimie it would be interesting to see how wage levels stand in relation to all the rest. 

    I know you're all for the truth so don't you think adding in salaries would would give a clearer picture?

    IMO I think it would. 

    Its seems sensible to suggest that the more money a player costs in wages would mean a higher calibre of player. 

    ....

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  37. Here's the figures for two of those years, Jaimie

    2006/7 then 2005/06 in brackets.
    Arsenal - £89.7m (£82.9m) Liverpool - £77.6m (£68.9m)
    from here

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7423254.stm

    Please try to keep it civil Jaimie.

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  38. Wages and transfer fees do not come from the same pot. Club accounts categorically prove this.  They are accounted for separately. The size of the transfer fee is not dictated by the size of the salary. Furthermore, salaries these days are much more complex than they used to be (numerous performance related bonues/image rights etc).

    The TOTAL salary bill may have some bearing on how a team performs but is nowhere near absolute or persuasive.  For example, Liverpool finished 2nd last year - how could they do that with a lower wage bill than Chelsea?

    Numerous teams in the CL had bigger wages bills then us in 2005, but we still won the CL.

    There are anomalies like that every year yet people insist that highest wage bill = most chance of success.

    It is just not true.

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  39. won the league based on youth....the back 4 were all round about 16 years old when wenger won the league.

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  40. But you're then assuming that the alleged 'higher caliber of player' somehow translated into a higher likelihood of success.  This is just not true.  As I mentioned earlier: Chelsea's wage bill dwarfs LFC's, yet we still finished above them last season.  LFC also won the CL in 2005 ahead of the Chelsea wage bill.

    Also, whoi judges whether a player is higher calibre or not?

    it's not as simple as you make out.

    I will be doing a separate wages comparison of all top clubs once this series is done.

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  41. I'm not saying that at all, you're puting words into my mouth. Also by concluding I'm a Benitez fan - I'm just using facts and truths regarding the timing. It's you who are not accepting the simple facts.
    1) Time - the youth system at Arsenal has not happened over night.
    2) Success - Since 2004 what has Arsene won? He was competing with Man U but now with the emergence of Chelsea, and to a degree Liverpool (under Benitez - until this season we have been a force - e.g. knocking them out of the CL) Arsenal come up short in EVERY tournament. How can that mean he's better in the transfer market? WHEN IT COME TO THE BIG GAMES ARSENAL ALWAYS COME UP SHORT!!!

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  42. Doot - As usual, the media has it wrong. The BBC can't even accurately compile simple figures.

    1. Arsenal wage bill for 2006-7 was 77.6m, not 89.7m.  See the attached image as proof.

    2. It is incorrect to include social security/pension costs in the overall figure.

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  43. I see Rafa is nothing without Pako.You can see the result after Pako left us.As usual,Sammy Lee brings bad luck

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  44. Agreed, wasn't it rumoured are present owners offered Rafa a 20m transfer kitty last years? which in reality only covered wages & agent fees, on extended contracts with Kuyt, Torres, Gerrard & Johnson?

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  45. So? Presumably they've included the same error for Liverpool? Jaimie. wriggle as much as you like but I think most people see wages as part of the transfer deal and it's undeniable that Arsenal spend more on wages. Also, I'm tired of the continuous strawman arguments, again.

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  46. we have finished above chelsea ONCE since Abramovich arrived

    hardly convincing evidence that you are correct about the wages comparison

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  47. its not making excuses for the sake of it though is it?

    They are all valid points  - Fergie did have a better squad in 2004 . He still has 7 players in his squad from 2003/04. That is 7 players he hasnt had to replace in that time. Can you name me 7 players from Rafas squad of 2004/05 that you still want playing for us today?

    In this time we have averaged a 4th place finish ( even with the 7th this year) where Arsenal have avg. 3.33 place. So yes they have finished slightly higher than us on average. Yet we have finished above them 3 out of the 6 years and won more silverware. So it is questionable wether Arsenal has been more succesful than us in this time.
    Maybe if they had spent more money they might have won more :)

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  48. hahaha... you're so bad at cohesive arguments it's actually funny.

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  49. For the last accounting year (2008-9), Liverpool have actually overtaken Arsenal in the wages stakes:

    Arsenal: 88.4m
    Liverpool: 88.6m

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  50. Well I've never thought he was A 'Pool fan anyway.

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  51. so is someone else paying for our players' wages?

    whether you split hairs or not - it is the same pot.

    In fact in Purslows cosy interview with SoS (gawd bless 'em), he stated as such - wage spend is funded from the transfer account: "In the summer we had seven new contracts signed on new deals for existing players; this had to be funded from player sales, losing other wage costs and the profit available. Agents’ costs for new signings or contract renewals, around 1.5 %, come out of the player account as well."


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  52. If you're so 'tired', go to another LFC site then.  No one is twisting your arm to make you post here.

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  53. The comparison being made is between Rafa and Wenger since Rafa came to Liverpool. If you want to include titles Wenger won pre-Rafa, can we also include the La Liga titles Rafa won in Spain?

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  54. You mean 20m on top of the 35m spent on Aquilani and Johnson?

    Benitez was offered 20m *on top of* that money.  He could've used it to buy nore players; he *chose* to spend it on contract extensions.

    The truth is, Benitez demanded that 20m PLUS even more money on top of that.  He could've just used it to buy players.  he didn't.  The contract situation was not urgent; the likes of Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt were not even up for renewal in that year.

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  55. No Mike JB

    Sammy just nods his head up and down on everything Rafa says. So do all others who kiss Rafa's feet. How can Sammy bring bad luck when he knows that only what Rafa says and does stands. Nobody will overcome Benitez until the day he is gone.

    F*** me, he can talk rubbish about eveyone including our owners and still keep his job. Wonder how many other people can keep their job after taking the mickey out on their bosses?

    Why did Pako leave = Rafael Benitez. It is not Sammy's fault that we finished 7th, is it?

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  56. Well, as soon as the IRWT-Brigade run out of excuses you could add a column with stats of how often the respective manager shave themselves. I could bet that Wenger does it more often and for that reason alone Benítez is superior to him and he is not as tall either so anything you try will be to no avail.

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  57. Why do people have such a hard time comprehending the obvious?  it always has to be balck and white, doesn't it?!

    I have not suggested that wages NEVER equal better team performance.  I am trying to make the point that the higher wges *DO NOT ALWAYS* equal better performance.  I provided some examples to prove this (and there are many others, not just for LFC but other teams too). 

    I've seen so many people advance the absolute argument that Higher wages *always* equals better performance, but it is just not true.  That is the point.

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  58. so we paid 0.3m in wages more in 08/9 and were 2 places higher in the league - bargain!!


    Seriously though , you appear to think you have discovered a discrepancy in the Deloitte numbers.

    how about giving your version of wages spend by arsenal, lfc, mufc, cfc and see how it compares to the Deloitte figures? And not just for the last season available - from 04/5 onwards

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  59. So now we have to pay our players more than what any other club is paying theirs in order for them to put the Red shirt on with pride? That just shows the mentality of WE CAN ONLY GO FORWARD IF OUR MANAGER HAS BILLIONS TO SPEND...

    Any more excuses? 

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  60. You claim that wages are part of the transfer budget and I would like to think that signing on fees are too, but yet Benítez still claims that he has spent no money last season while quite a few contracts of our main players were extended.

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  61. Most people, but not the messiah Benítez himself.

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  62. NO SORRY MAX, I'M NOT HAVING THAT.

    I didn't say not to discuss the topic at hand what I asked was that YOU do not turn it into a Rafa bashing debacle as it simply decends into childish "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments with two opposing factions hurling mud at each other, YOU'LL NEVER AGREE - ACCEPT IT!

    How about for a laugh we all talk about the Club for once? Potential suitors, potential transfers, who you'd like to see wearing our strip next season - you know the things fans NORMALLY discuss!

    I'm sick and tired of the constant sniping from the tagged "Pro/Anti Benitez" bullshit, he's the manager, he'll very probably be here next season so lets focus on the team and discussing better things.

    All this constant arguing about Benitez is like dust in the wind, you're all puffing from different directions and yet it changes nothing.

    Jaimie has allowed himself to become emersed in a war of words (to a certain degree) with RAWK, TIA etc...I'd urge you to rise above it Jaimie and try being the last remaining LFC "FANS" forum that remains focused on the positives of our Club and our future as opposed to concentrating on the negatives.

    As far as the Wenger v Benitez debate is concerned I'm off the opinion that Wenger is quite possibly the best manager there has ever been in the Prem especially when considering his somewhat frugal spending compared to other managers. I'm a huge fan of the football his teams play and he's obviously got the best Youth scouting network in the League, some of the profits he's made on players are simply staggering, specifically Toure, bought for £150k and sold for £25m.

    He's a class act, even though he sometimes needs glasses to see his teams misgivings!

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  63. NO SORRY MAX, I'M NOT HAVING THAT.

    I didn't say not to discuss the topic at hand what I asked was that YOU do not turn it into a Rafa bashing debacle as it simply decends into childish "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments with two opposing factions hurling mud at each other, YOU'LL NEVER AGREE - ACCEPT IT!

    How about for a laugh we all talk about the Club for once? Potential suitors, potential transfers, who you'd like to see wearing our strip next season - you know the things fans NORMALLY discuss!

    I'm sick and tired of the constant sniping from the tagged "Pro/Anti Benitez" bullshit, he's the manager, he'll very probably be here next season so lets focus on the team and discussing better things.

    All this constant arguing about Benitez is like dust in the wind, you're all puffing from different directions and yet it changes nothing.

    Jaimie has allowed himself to become emersed in a war of words (to a certain degree) with RAWK, TIA etc...I'd urge you to rise above it Jaimie and try being the last remaining LFC "FANS" forum that remains focused on the positives of our Club and our future as opposed to concentrating on the negatives.

    As far as the Wenger v Benitez debate is concerned I'm off the opinion that Wenger is quite possibly the best manager there has ever been in the Prem especially when considering his somewhat frugal spending compared to other managers. I'm a huge fan of the football his teams play and he's obviously got the best Youth scouting network in the League, some of the profits he's made on players are simply staggering, specifically Toure, bought for £150k and sold for £25m.

    He's a class act, even though he sometimes needs glasses to see his teams misgivings!

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  64. NO SORRY MAX, I'M NOT HAVING THAT.

    I didn't say not to discuss the topic at hand what I asked was that YOU do not turn it into a Rafa bashing debacle as it simply decends into childish "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments with two opposing factions hurling mud at each other, YOU'LL NEVER AGREE - ACCEPT IT!

    How about for a laugh we all talk about the Club for once? Potential suitors, potential transfers, who you'd like to see wearing our strip next season - you know the things fans NORMALLY discuss!

    I'm sick and tired of the constant sniping from the tagged "Pro/Anti Benitez" bullshit, he's the manager, he'll very probably be here next season so lets focus on the team and discussing better things.

    All this constant arguing about Benitez is like dust in the wind, you're all puffing from different directions and yet it changes nothing.

    Jaimie has allowed himself to become emersed in a war of words (to a certain degree) with RAWK, TIA etc...I'd urge you to rise above it Jaimie and try being the last remaining LFC "FANS" forum that remains focused on the positives of our Club and our future as opposed to concentrating on the negatives.

    As far as the Wenger v Benitez debate is concerned I'm off the opinion that Wenger is quite possibly the best manager there has ever been in the Prem especially when considering his somewhat frugal spending compared to other managers. I'm a huge fan of the football his teams play and he's obviously got the best Youth scouting network in the League, some of the profits he's made on players are simply staggering, specifically Toure, bought for £150k and sold for £25m.

    He's a class act, even though he sometimes needs glasses to see his teams misgivings!

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  65. I think you'll find the £35m came from the Alonso sale as well as Bit part player sales such as Leto. So in essence, the board renewed contracts but there was no real transfer fund. Well done JK, you moronic argument base never fails to amaze me.

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  66. But yet some people still claim that there was no money spent last summer.

    ReplyDelete
  67. "I've seen so many people advance the absolute argument that Higher wages *always* equals better performance, but it is just not true.  That is the point."

    I don't believe you have seen many people say that higher wages always equals better performance - it appears that if anything it is you who appear to be rather guilty of bombastic and black/white statements.

    Everyone ought to know that there are no guarantees for success in football. However the fact that the top2 clubs clearly outspend (for the pedants: i'm talking wages + transfers) all the rest and win the most trophies is quite a clear indicator, n'est-ce pas?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Didn't Purslow say that our transfer fund last summer was depleted by the renewal of key contracts?

    ReplyDelete
  69. agree with that

    the "amazing youth" at arsenal is a myth - they haven't won't anything to be termed a success.

    ReplyDelete
  70. The 20m was said to be a contract sweetener.... regards to Johnson, Rafa, Rafa when to Portsmouth, because there was no real transfer money, Portsmouth owed Liverpool 8m, as was the same with Aquilani, Roma owed Liverpool 3m from the Riise contact the year previous, we own Portsmouth 8m, while Roma is happy with a payment plan.

    So question, were did the Alonso money go?

    ReplyDelete
  71. 3 times when?

    back when benitez was winning twice in la liga?

    ReplyDelete
  72. it is important to tie these players down with long contracts as it makes our position stronger when other teams want to buy them. That is why he chose to spend this money on the contracts.

    I havent checked your account info. but how much have we actually paid in real money for Aquilani and Johnson? Did we physically hand over £35m last summer?  Just interested.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Jaimie

    You state the purpose of this series is to "accurately report the gross/net spend of the UK's top clubs since 2004"

    You then go on to state "This series is NOT an attack on Rafa Benitez"
    So why choose 2004 as the starting point for your analysis?  Surely by choosing the advent of Benitez as Liverpool manager you are limiting the scope of debate to the Benitez era.  This will constrain the debates and simply bring out the same old tired arguments for and against.
    I would've thought that a far more logical starting point for your analysis would be when Abramovich took over Chelsea.  That is the event that is generally acknowledged as changing the Premier League landscape forever.  It is Abramovich (and now Abu Dhabi) that have changed the way tob clubs spend money, in comparison the arrival of Benitez is small-scale.
    But back to today's effort.
    Well done. You have categorically proved that in the Benitez era Arsene Wenger has spent less in the transfer market than Rafa Benitez. 
    In a period where Wenger has won 1 FA Cup and finished below Liverpool more often than not
    What does this prove?  Perhaps if Wenger had spent more he may have been more successful?
    You can't continually refer to Wenger's 3 league titles in 7 seasons as this is outside the scope of your own terms of reference.  If you are going to mention Wenger's leagues then you need to extend the analysis to cover the Houllier and Evans era too.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Erm... Hello...

    Football is pretty much ALL about money these days.

    Players are greedy. 

    Get over it. 

    Of course equivalent wages have to be paid to the team your trying to catch other wise the teams above you get all the best players. 

    Ergo Man City. 

    Footballers are local lads anymore. They come from everywhere. 

    The problem here is that You and Jaime and a few others try and make this into a black and white argument but its anything but that. 

    Its very complex with lots of influencing factors. of which net spend, gross spend, working conditions, wages, reputation of the club, reputation of the manager/staff, rep of players already there, owners, fan base, stadia, facilities etc are all part of. 

    Its not a simple as saying RB has spend X and its a fortune and he has to go. 

    It has to be put into context and perspective.

    Something which some people find it impossible to do. 

    ReplyDelete
  75. Sorry, footballers are NOT local lads anymore

    ReplyDelete
  76. <p><span><span>Anfield81, you said the following... </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Why for gods sake does everything have to turn into a Benitez debate? If you've nothing to add to the debate other than using every article to bash Benitez then don't bother commenting, you're only adding fuel to the fire which turns ALL of these articles into a pissing contest.

    Read more: </span><span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-alex-ferguson_26.html#ixzz0p82ypFxr</span></span>
    </p><p><span>I replied...</span>
    </p><p><span></span><span><span>Me turn it into a Benitez debate? 
     
    FFS Read the HEADING, what does it say? Am I the only one that is mentioning Rafa's name? 
     
    And you are right Jamie does put plenty time and effort into this site, no shit. Yet we still have those who argue when he lays down the <span>facts</span> and try to bend the truth. So please dont come tell me that I am turning these articles into a pissing contest. 

    Read more: </span><span>http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-alex-ferguson_26.html#ixzz0p83qeSnp</span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>You then say...</span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>"NO SORRY MAX, I'M NOT HAVING THAT."  </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span>Next please!!!</span></span>
    </p><p><span></span></p>

    ReplyDelete
  77. wages are important when discussing transfers.

     If team A and B are of a similar standard in their league  but team A can offer far higher wages, which team stands the greatest chance of signing said player?

    Also high wages can twist a managers net spend - Ballack came on a free ( net spend of 0) yet his wages are huge. That money had to come from somewhere. So even getting a player on a free costs the club money. LFC couldnt afford to get Ballack  for free :)

    ReplyDelete
  78. Very good job. Again. I strongly disagree with your comments under the article but I'm very grateful for the data provided.

    How many more parts can we expect?

    ReplyDelete
  79. I don't 'appear to think' - the evidence is right there in black and white.  Perhaps Deloitte included pension costs in their figure? Quite what that has to do with actual cost of wages is beyond me.  Even the club accounts separate them out.

    ReplyDelete
  80. "Ergo Man City." 

    It just gets better and better. How much money has Man City spent over the last 2 years? What have they won and how much do their players get paid?

    It doesnt matter how many times things get put into context and perspective, the point is that Rafael Benitez is the only man that is not being blamed for the shit we see on the pitch. Stevie and other players have been blamed, the owners have been blamed, because we do not have a new stadium has been blamed, because we had injuries which we have every season has been blamed, Alex Ferguson has been blamed, the beach ball has been blamed, the owners have been blamed, the refs have been blamed, the FA has been blamed and and and... 

    So where does Rafael Benitez fit into the picture, as usual he is invisible.

    ReplyDelete
  81. In actuality, our transfer fund last summer constituted the following:

    * 37m on Aquilani, Kyrgiakos + Johnson

    * 20m on renewing contracts (Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt etc)

    Total = 57m approx.

    That extra 20m could've been spent on players.  Benitez *chose* (actually demanded and pushed) for it to be spent on contract extensions that weren't even due in that financial year.

    That's the reality.

    ReplyDelete
  82. All done before 2004 (pre-Rafa) when Wenger actually used to spend money. Overmars, Henry, Lauren, Jeffers, Wiltord, Pires, Edu, Van Bronckurst, Reyes are all examples where he has spent a tidy sum of money. The brilliant thing that Wenger has done throughout his time at Arsenal is recouping massive profits on players, which has done his net figure a world of good. He, like every other manager, has spent money and not always well.

    Living in London I speak to a lot of Arsenal fans. Some of them were just as happy under George Graham when they were boring boring Arsenal. Why because won titles. Pretty football is a bonus. At the weekend when we lose it wouldn't be a consolation that we lost playing nice football. Losing is losing. I would take a scrappy win over a pretty loss any day.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Brando - Tell me this: if it's so important to tie down players, why are Torres and Gerrard being so non-comittal over their futures?!  If they renewed their contracts, they should be tied down, no?

    Re Johnson and Aquilani - Yes, we did pay actual money for them.  The accounts state that we paid a combined 20.4m for Aquilani and Kyrgiakos.  See image attached as proof.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Hi Samsamire - there will be 5 mmore parts:

    Benitez v Chelsea
    Benitez v Man City
    Benitez v Spurs
    Benitez v Villa

    Then, a comparison of all the teams together.

    ReplyDelete
  85. It's a COMPARATIVE debate Max, it's not just another means to attack Benitez as Jaimie actually said in the article, did you not get that?

    You only focused on bashing Benitez rather than discussing the topic at hand, your attempt to obfuscation has failed.

    ReplyDelete
  86. I choose 2004 as the startiung point because it is a comparison of Benitez's reign with other managers over the same period!  This is the number 1 stat analysis that people ask for on this site, so I've provided it.  Don't then give me grief for doing ecxactly what people want!

    ReplyDelete
  87. Jamie you know Aquilani as done via payments, do wish me to show you a copy of the contract?

    Please see

    http://www.asroma.it/UserFiles/988.pdf

    stop bullshiting

    ReplyDelete
  88. Thats simply not a fair way to display the facts Jaime and you also fail t list income in the same transfer window which paid for it.

    We all know that the outlay for johnson was less the money we were owed for crouch for starters and we all know that there was an income stream from Alonso/Arbeloa/Leto and also dossena and voronin which paid for the transfer kitty. 

    ReplyDelete
  89. That money £37m was generated from sales.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Thats a complete load of rubbish.
    Of course RB harbours the responsibility but you try and pin everything on his door which isn’t fair.
    As I said there are many variables that influence the club. He is just one of them
    Man City are playing catch up, wake up and that is why they are spending so much on transfers and wages. I’m not suggesting that they should have won anything yet, its a slow process.
    Unfortunately you seem to lack the intelligence to grasp any points apart from
    “Its all Rafa’s fault”
    If you think Rafa should quit so much why don’t you make a banner and stand with it in the Kop and stand outside with it before the Match and chant Rafa out?
    Mark Franklin
    A G Franklin Ltd
    Unit 10 Steads Yard
    High Street
    Knaresborough
    HG5 0HS
    T: 01423 797718
    F: 01423 797839
    E:info@agfranklin.com

    ReplyDelete
  91. It Actually 34m, hes all the ins- outs of last year with links to every player

    <span><span>Confirmed In's
    </span></span><span>Zsolt Poloskei</span> (18) - MTK Hungaria (Extended Season Loan 2009/10)
    <span>Krisztian Adorjan</span> (16) - MTK Budapest (Season Loan 2009/10)
    <span>Patrick Poor</span> (16) - MTK Budapest (Season Loan 2009/10)
    <span>Jesús Fernández Sáez "Suso"</span> (16) - Cádiz CF (Undisclosed)
    <span>Aaron King</span> (16) - Rushden and Diamonds (Undisclosed)
    <span>James Ellison</span> (17) - Sefton Boys under-15s (Acadamy Graduate)
    <span>Glen Johnson</span> (24) - Portsmouth (£16,000,000)
    <span>Chris Mavinga</span> (18) - Paris St Germain (Undisclosed)
    <span>Nikolaj Køhlert</span> (16) - Esbjerg (Undisclosed)
    <span>Stephen Sama</span> (16) - Borussia Dortmund (Undisclosed)
    <span>Alberto Aquilani</span> (25) - AS Roma (£17,000,000)
    <span>Sotirios Kyrgiakos</span> (30) - AEK Athens (£1,500,000)

    <span><span>Jan 2010 Confirmed Ins</span></span>
    <span>Dave Moli</span> (14) - Luton Town (undisclosed)
    <span>Kristjan Gauti Emilsson</span> (16) - Fimleikafélag Hafnarfjarðar (undisclosed)
    <span>Maxi Rodriguez</span> (29) - Atletico Madrid (Free [...]

    ReplyDelete
  92. In that case I really think you need to rewrite the "purpose statement" for this series of articles

    Your personal views about Benitez are well known and in the public domain.

    The purpose of these articles should therefore be to enable a forensic analysis of the Benitez era.  A by product of this will be the same old tired arguments for and against.  The only consequence of your series will be a slightly more accurate use of figures.  Instead of someone mentioning a £35m net spend in 06/07, someone else will say "ah no its £29.9m and look it says so here [insert URL to JK article]"

    You undoubtedly have research skills and time on your hands.  Is this really the best use of it???? 

    I'm more concerned that in so much of these articles you're comparing apples with pears.  Wouldn't it be better to investigate a way of comparing apples with apples in a way that would add value - in a similar way to Simon Kuper's "Soccernomics" perhaps?

    ReplyDelete
  93. <span>Thats a complete load of rubbish.</span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>Of course RB harbours the responsibility but you try and pin everything on his door which isn’t fair. </span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>As I said there are many variables that influence the club. He is just one of them </span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>Man City are playing catch up, wake up and that is why they are spending so much on transfers and wages. I’m not suggesting that they should have won anything yet, its a slow process. </span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>Unfortunately you seem to lack the intelligence to grasp any points apart from </span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>“Its all Rafa’s fault”</span>
    <span> </span>
    <span>If you think Rafa should quit so much why don’t you make a banner and stand with it in the Kop and stand outside with it before the Match and chant Rafa out?</span>
    <span> </span>

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anfield81

    Please quote where I have bashed Benitez...

    I will be waiting...

    I think you are only focusing on my replies to other people like longchalk who calls me a silly fool so please Anfield81 if you cant handle me "bashing Benitez" (once again I will be waiting for you to quote where I have done so) then go find a site which is less sensitive...

    ReplyDelete
  95. <span><span>Confirmed Out's</span></span>
    <span>Paul Anderson</span> (20) - Nottingham Forest (250,000)
    <span>Jack Hobbs</span> (20) - Leicester City (400,000)
    <span>Sebastian Leto</span> (22) - Panathinaikos (3,000,000)
    <span>Astrit Ajdarevic</span> (19) - Leicester City (Undisclosed)
    <span>Alvaro Arbeloa</span> (26) - Real Madrid (£3,500,000)
    <span>Xabi Alonso</span> (27) - Real Madrid (£27,000,000)
    <span>Adam Hammill</span> (21) - Barnsley (750,000)

    <span><span>Jan 2010 Confirmed out</span></span>
    <span>Nikolay Mihaylov</span> (19) - PSV Eindhoven (£1,300,000)
    <span>Andrea Dossena</span> (28) - S.S.C. Napoli (£3,800,000)
    <span>Andriy Voronin</span> (30) - Dynamo Moscow (£1,800,000)
    <span>Christopher Buchtmann</span> (17) - Fulham (£100,000)

    Gross Income = £41,900,000

    <span>NET Total Spends = £7,400,000 (Profit)</span>

    ReplyDelete
  96. Just because you don't think it adds value doesn't mean it's true.  Soccernomics has its place, but it is not absolute by any means.  If you want to believe it is, that's your prerogative.  I am sick of inaccurate figures being bandied about for transfer spending.  I want this to be cleared up, which will allow accurate debat, which is not endlessly based on generalisation.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Jojo - Are you blind?

    What does the account snippet I posted above say?

    It states that Liverpool HAS PAID 20.4m for Kyrgiakos and Aquilani.  That money HAS BEEN SPENT.

    I'm well aware of Roma's breakdown - I posted it on the site myself last year. However, that is not a contract.  We don't know what the contracti stipulated outside those terms.  It's entirely possible there was some term that stated the entire amount had to be due.  It's also possible that Liverpool decided to pay the whole amount upfront for acccounting purposes.

    Whatever it is, I have provided irrefutable factual evidence that the money for Aquilani HAS BEEN PAID.  The proof is attached to this message again:

    ReplyDelete
  98. Jojo - these are not official figures!  Why do you not get that?!  What is the source of these figures?  LFC fansites?  newspaper articles?

    These are unreliable.  The only reliable, factual source is the club accounts.  What you have posted is pure speculation and supposition.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Well in that case it might be worth your while getting the good folks at "transfer league" to look again at all their post 2004 data on the back of your series

    after all, not many non-LFC fans are going to come a website called "Liverpool-Kop" for their facts are they?

    Transfer League is one of the worst offenders for inaccuracy but unfortunately seems to be the go to website of choice for national sites not dedicated to any specific club

    http://transferleague.co.uk/

    ReplyDelete
  100. I read a story that said

    ReplyDelete
  101. "Brando - Tell me this: if it's so important to tie down players, why are Torres and Gerrard being so non-comittal over their futures?!  If they renewed their contracts, they should be tied down, no?"

    again this black/white obsession, JK....

    Extending contracts/increasing wages benefits in at least 2 ways:

    1) Increases the likelihood the player will stay at the club
    2) Increases the compensation (transfer) fee the club will receive if the player leaves

    Are you REALLY criticising benitez for his forward - planning in sorting out the gerrard/torres/kuyt contracts? We'd be totally fucked this summer if some of our top players were only 18months or so away from the end of their contracts. It would be a free-for-all

    ReplyDelete
  102. Actually that statement is unequivocably wrong Jamie.

    Soccernomics (or Why England Lose...) proves that statistically there is a 92% correlation between wages and finishing position in the league between 1978 and 1997, and an 89% correlation between 1998 and 2007.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Actually that statement is unequivocably wrong Jamie. 
     
    Soccernomics (or Why England Lose...) proves that statistically there is a 92% correlation between wages and finishing position in the league between 1978 and 1997, and an 89% correlation between 1998 and 2007.

    ReplyDelete
  104. It may not be *always* Jamie, but it's pretty damned important:
      
    Soccernomics (or Why England Lose...) proves that statistically there is a 92% correlation between wages and finishing position in the league between 1978 and 1997, and an 89% correlation between 1998 and 2007.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Tied down - as in being able to demand the highest possible transfer fee IF the player wants to leave.

    You cant really stop a player leaving if he wants to go ( see Ronaldo and Alonso/Arebeloa). But at least we can get top dollar because they have so long left on their contracts ( unlike Arebeloa).

    Re : Re Johnson and Aquilani - sorry what about johnson? you mention 20.4m for Aquilani and Kyrgiakos but no figure for johnson.

    Sorry again but how much did we make on sales in the same period?

    ReplyDelete
  106. For seasoned Anfield observers it was one of the most depressing sights seen at the ground for many years. As Alan Wiley, the referee, gave a final blast of his whistle to signal the end of Liverpool’s game against Chelsea on Sunday, a number of supporters in an executive box in the Centenary Stand unfurled a banner calling on Rafael Benitez to quit.

    Although not in the Kop, it has been done at Anfield for everyone to see.

    <span>"Man City are playing catch up, wake up and that is why they are spending so much on transfers and wages. I’m not suggesting that they should have won anything yet, its a slow process."</span>
    <span></span>
    <span>And that is why Arsenal who have spent less than any other top club and Spurs who havent spent close to what Man City has finished above MULTI MILLION AIR MAN CITY who finished in 5th. Please come up with a better excuse about " it is a slow process. Obviously then Spurs should not have finished ahead of Man City, I guess it is also a slow process for Spurs too to finish above a team worth bucket loads more?</span>
    <span></span>
    <span> "<span>Unfortunately you seem to lack the intelligence to grasp any points apart from </span> 
    <span> </span>  
    <span>“Its all Rafa’s fault”</span> </span>
    <span></span>
    <span><span>Unfortunately you seem to lack the intelligence to grasp any points apart from </span> </span>
    <span></span>
    <span>Rafa bought the players for the last six years, chose the teams, tactics, formations, made the subs, cried about the clubs finances, treated players like crap, dragged the owners into the media to deflect his flaws and pave the blame to them, screwed the club with his 16mil payout, said that trophies arent important when it comes to success, guarenteed 4th and finished 7th and I can go on.</span>
    <span></span>
    <span>A complete load of Rubbish? I guess everyone has a right to opinion dont they?</span>

    ReplyDelete
  107. Are you for real Max?

    I've read much of the archived articles and your comments for the most part are directed at ridiculing Benitez, I really don't think I need to prove that you bash Benitez! Do you seriously think you don't?

    Wow, I've not seen delusion like that in a long time.

    All I'm saying is it gets tiresome and it's a waste of your time, do you lack the mental fortitude to debate properly? Is that why your comments are for the most part all negatively directed at Benitez regardless of topic for discussion?

    ReplyDelete
  108. The info contained in Soccernomics is not absolute truth.  For a start, unless the writers have had access to every CONFIDENTIAL personal player contract over the last 25 years (which they haven't) then any analysis is inherently flawed and based on guess-work.  
     
    Additionally, unless the writers have examined every team and every ACCURATE wage figure in the same time period, the results are even more suspect. 

    Soccernomics many other things related to football, is not fact. It is guesswork on a grand scale, especially when it comes to player salaries.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Here is a superb article that explains why Soccernomics is flawed:

    http://soccer-source.blogspot.com/2010/01/soccernomics-and-misbegotten-quest-to.html

    ReplyDelete
  110. Max,

    Why don't you calm down a bit of course you're entitled to your opinion but this website is about debate if everyone agreed it would be boring. You make a good point about man city and spending money of course spending money by itself does not equal success you also need a good manager. Man city changes managers halfway though the season and all of the players they have bough ultimately need time to gel. However next season they will be real contenders for a top 4 place and they will spend big this summer.

    Totenham finished above mancity this season because they spent money and had a good manager in Harry Rednapp this is not surprising.

    <span>Rafa bought the players for the last six years, chose the teams, tactics, formations, made the subs, cried about the clubs finances, treated players like crap, dragged the owners into the media to deflect his flaws and pave the blame to them, screwed the club with his 16mil payout, said that trophies arent important when it comes to success, guarenteed 4th and finished 7th and I can go on.</span>

    First off apart from this seaon LFC were making some progress in the PL this season has been disatrious for LFC and for that perhaps Rafa should go but that decision wont be made while the club is in the process of being sold.Also how can you blame Benitez for screwing the club with his payoff? No one forced H&G to agree to a 16m payout and they could still fire him if they want to and bring someone else in...

    Also if you read the latest Kop holdings annual report there is no mention of winning trophies as a key performance indicator for LFC is continued performane against target of qualifying for CL and performance of squads so in a way Benitez is correct when he says that trophies aren't important because that's not what he being measured against. OF COURSE as a fan I want Liverpool to win everything!

    ReplyDelete
  111. This is a Spurs side that has been relatively settled for the last 2 years and they have bought well. 

    Man City are trying to gatecrash spending all the money in one go. They have also had 2 changes of manager in the last 2 years to Spurs one.

    Their scenarios are entirely different. Additionally Spurs were in a much better starting position than City bar their hideous start to the previous season.

    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think your very narrow minded and don't take into account the bigger picture. 

    Re: the way he treats his players, How do you know he treats his players like crap? Just because a couple spout off?? Its called personality clashes and the alonso saga has been discusses to death. He was crap so rightly was tried to be replaced. Then he took the bit by the teeth and performed again. Big deal. 

    In the opposite clan are the peolpe who say that he is a good man manager and had no problems with him i.e. Hamann who was one of the most professional players that we had.

    Screwed the club with a £16m buyout clause??!!? 

    Buyout clauses are for the protection of both the person and the company. Hence why Inter are demanding compo for Mourinho. Its called protecting your own interests and if the CLUB lawyers didn't think it was anything outlandish then I dont grasp how you can. Do you not protect your own interests?

    Did you put the banner up??

    No, didn't think so.

    Hide behind a computer, like always. 

    He also chose the tactics that have won us competitions although I guess in your one dimensional argument they will be classed as a fluke even though the Final is only one game of an entire competition. 

    The club finances are F****ed. Everyones crying about them. Its called wanting whats best for the club. 

    Dragging the owners into the media? Are you having a laugh?! The owners have never been out of the spotlight due to their inadequacies and lies. Or is that all Rafa's fault aswell.....

    Cant see the wood for the trees

    ReplyDelete
  112. Max,  
     
    Why don't you calm down a bit of course you're entitled to your opinion but this website is about debate if everyone agreed it would be boring. You make a good point about man city and spending  of course spending money by itself does not equal success you also need a good manager. Man city changed their managers halfway though the season and all of the players they have bough ultimately need time to gel!! However next season they will be real contenders for a top 4 place and they will spend big again this summer.  
     
    Totenham finished above man city this season because they spent money and had a good manager in Harry Rednapp and we were poor from the first game so this is not surprising.
     
    <span>Rafa bought the players for the last six years, chose the teams, tactics, formations, made the subs, cried about the clubs finances, treated players like crap, dragged the owners into the media to deflect his flaws and pave the blame to them, screwed the club with his 16mil payout, said that trophies arent important when it comes to success, guarenteed 4th and finished 7th and I can go on.</span>  
     
    First off apart from this seaon LFC were making some progress in the PL you may not like the style of play or Benitez but we were making some progress. This season has been disatrious for LFC and for that perhaps Rafa should go but that decision wont be made while the club is in the process of being sold.
    Also how can you blame Benitez for screwing the club with his payoff? No one forced H&G to agree to a 16m payout and they could still fire him if they want to and bring someone else in...  
     
    Also if you read the latest Kop holdings annual report there is no mention of winning trophies as a key performance indicator for LFC instead the report states that it is continued performane against a target of qualifying for CL and performance of squads so in a way Benitez is correct when he says that trophies aren't important because that's not what he being measured against. OF COURSE as a fan I want Liverpool to win everything :)

    ReplyDelete
  113. Well you must be Einstein or something to figure out that my comments are directed at Benitez. Who else should I direct them to.

    It is like me telling someone who keeps on bashing the owners to stop being negative towards them.

    I have heard it all now, oh you know what? I have only found out now that I want Benitez out.

    So tell me why I should be posotive towards Benitez after six years?

    "Are you for real Max?" is the most comical thing I have heard today.

    Jaimie, lets be posotive towards Benitez from now on. 8-)

    ReplyDelete
  114. "The club finances are F****ed. Everyones crying about them. Its called wanting whats best for the club." 

    This is the point were I will stop debating with you.

    Jaimie Kanwar the editor proved everyone who says "The club finances are F****ed." wrong with official CLUB documents and yet you still harp on about "The club finances are F****ed."

    Hop along now...

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  115. So Rob, dont you believe Trophies are important and how long are you still willing to wait?

    If Benitez who is labeled as a 'World Class Manager' preformance is not based on winning trophies then that explains why he is still at the club. Benitez does not have a Boss, he is watched over by two donkeys.

    If Benitez was working under Abromovich he would not have a clause in his contract that says "there is no mention of winning trophies as a key performance indicator" but now obviously you are going to say well he would have had more money, better players and everything else under the sun. If we had owner that knows the ins and outs about football then Benitez would have been gone long time ago. Benitez has the freedom of a bird flying in the air, nobody can tell him which route to follow. Nobody can tell him what to do, not even his own followers because he will not listen to them or anyone. 

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  116. Jaimie, first off, i have to admit that Wenger is one of the best managers in the Premier League, if not in the world. Your article was purely based on the period when Benitez joined LFC till present. I am no Benitez supporter however, i do think that we need consistency. Based on the above, i think it only fair, as you have been pointing out on a number of other things, that the anaylsis be subjected to 04/05 season till present. Based on the timeline, LFC has won a European Cup and the FA cup as major honours. For clarity, i think your argument that Wenger has won 3 titles is irrelevant. Getting back to the point, the past 5 or 6 seasons, Wenger has been tremendous in the transfer market, as displayed by your illustrations. Benitez is so far behind in that category, i dont think he will even get close to it.

    On a different note, apart from the timeline above, i have never not known once where Wenger has had one hind tied behind his back in the transfer market. He has always had money to spend, however, he chose how to use it and when. In those three league titles that you mentioned that afforded Wenger the time to progress with Arsenals youth system, he has spent vasts amounts of money on established players, not only that, his outlay on one or two youth/developing players have been on the upper end of the scale. That being said, his transfer budget of late, is not as it was previously. In defense of Benitez, he has never had that luxury.

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  117. <p><span><span><span>Jaimie, </span></span></span>
    </p><p><span><span> </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span><span>First off, i have to admit that Wenger is one of the best managers in the Premier League, if not in the world. Your article was purely based on the period when Benitez joined LFC till present. I am no Benitez supporter however, i do think that we need consistency. Based on the above, i think it only fair, as you have been pointing out on a number of other things, that the anaylsis be subjected to 04/05 season till present. Based on the timeline, LFC has won a European Cup and the FA cup as major honours. For clarity, i think your argument that Wenger has won 3 titles is irrelevant. Getting back to the point, the past 5 or 6 seasons, Wenger has been tremendous in the transfer market, as displayed by your illustrations. Benitez is so far behind in that category, i dont think he will even get close to it.  
     
    On a different note, apart from the timeline above, i have never known once where Wenger has had one hind tied behind his back in the transfer market. He has always had money to spend, however, he chose how to use it and when. In those three league titles that you mentioned that afforded Wenger the time to progress with Arsenals youth system, he has spent vasts amounts of money on established players, not only that, his outlay on one or two youth/developing players have been on the upper end of the scale. That being said, his transfer budget of late, is not as it was previously. In defense of Benitez, he has never had that luxury.</span></span></span>
    </p><p><span><span> </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span><span>My compliments to you Jaimie for the time and effort you put into all of these ananlysis. I have to to say they are very interesting and informative. Keep it up. </span></span></span>
    </p><p><span><span> </span></span>
    </p><p><span><span><span>Gavin</span></span></span></p>

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  118. Max, Your a sheep.

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  119. Hmmm, that article seems a little contentious to me, the overview that 'things just don't add up' seems rather overbearing in a book that admits that there are no absolutes. There was no mention of the wages statistic being hokey either.

    Regardless, Soccernomics was compiled by a professional journalist and one of the world's leading sports economists, so if they say they had the resources to compile accurate statistical data on wage correlation I'm inclined to believe them.

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  120. Max I really don't understand your point?

    You asked me to prove that you constantly bash Benitez (which wasn't the point of the article as Jaimie stated) and now you're saying you do bash Benitez and it's obvious?

    Why question it in the first place?

    Also, why do you always seem to look towards Jaimie for approval and reassurance when you make a comment? Do you really have such low self esteem that you need the acceptance of a faceless individual on the internet?

    You don't need to be positive towards Benitez Max, neither does Jaimie. It would just be nice for a change if ALL of the articles didn't decend into two factions "Pro/Anti Benitez" having a war of words with each other, it's pointless.

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  121. people please
    still bickering over sepending,players etc..
    far greater matters affect our club right now
    perhaps ALL here could direct thier efforts to more imediate debates
    ie the current state of the pitch - owners,sale etc..
    Finances have been looked into and that is relevant however we can leave this type of matter for a later date.

    how about this from the liverpool echo forum today thursday.

    >
    The battle to get the present owners out of LFC is not a fight between capitalism and socialism, it is not an ideological battle. This effort should be kept focussed on what is important to LFC and its fans, and that is to get the present owers out as quickly as possible.

    To achieve that everyone should be working together for that end. The parties with the greatest voice should be a cohesive fan base united in the one objective that matters in the short run, and that is to get the present owners out and replacing them with new owners who have the best interest of LFC at heart.

    Stop the bickering about the manager for now. There will be time to deal with the manager if necessary, but that is after new oweners is in place.

    The local press should daily progress the argument against the present owners. The press should explore all aspects of present owners involvement with other sports team in USA, and the damage done to those team and the teams' fan bases as well as to those teams players. The press should explore all avenues to put pressure on the owners to get out, including getting the creditors of LFC to stop supporting present owners by extending debt repayment.

    A cohesive plan has to be developed - and from what I see Spirit of Shakley hasn't got one. A plan should include clearly articulated steps involving how fans should react including when the new season starts - should the first home game be boycott? I like the idea with the party outside the stdium incorporating loudspeakers that hopefully can be heard by the players. This is clearly not a boycott of the team, it is a boycott of inappropriate owners having let the team and fans down. What about getting former star players to support the boycott? How is pressure placed on the creditors to stop supporting the present owners? To which extent can local and national politicians get involved in pressuring the creditors owned or controlloed by the British state? Should fans boycott those creditors, who do not agree to stop supporting the owners? How and when should that be done? And how should it be announced to pressure the creditors?

    I am sure many other aspects have to be covered. The point is that a cohesive and multi proned plan has to be developed, implemented and promoted with unwavering energy and determination. That is missing at the moment as I see it. Who will take up the challenge? The stakes for LFC fans could hardly be greater.

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  122. Thanks for your comments, Gavin.
    You're right, the focus should remain on 2004-2009. The reason I brought up Wenger's title wins: people argue that Benitez has won trophies since 2004, and Wenger hasn't. That may be, but Wenger has earned the right to have a barren spell trophywise. His 3 league titles (including the double) plus an entire season unbeaten is grants him time to experiment in the league.
    Benitez has not earnt the extra time. Furthermore, unlike Wenger (who is actually building something worthwhile) Benitez's reign has justy descended into utter mediocrity. What is Benitez building exactly? What evidence is there that *over 6 years* the squad has progressed in the league?
    Arsenal fans may be slightly miffed at the lack of trophies but at least they can be proud of what Wenger is trying to achieve, and the enviable style of football his teams produce.
    It reminds me of the Evans era at Anfield. Liverpool were without doubt the most entertaining team in the league. Watching us with the likes of Fowler, Mcmanaman, collymore, and older player like Barnes and Rush was pure pleasure. We didn't win the league but at least it was fun. Under Benitez, not only do we not win the league, we're subjected to the most boring anti-football I've ever experienced from a Liverpool side.
    Re your point about wenger not working with a hand tied behind his back. Three seasons out of 5 with a negative net spend proves otherwise, does it not? There's no evidence wenger had money but chose not to spend it. That's nonsense. Imagine the moaning we'd have to put up with from benitez if he had to regularly put up with negative net spends like that.
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  123. Now managers like Arsene and Alex have been in club for many years and they built a squad over that period, so when you look at their gross spending it will be much lesser comparatively... Even if they spend more its spread over one or two quality players or future prospects.  Whereas Rafa has been building a squad of his own with less of a financial support.  Most often he has to sacrifice buying his first option and worst is to settle for some poor alternatives...  Like Dani Alves could have been our player if at the right time cash was provided, but we missed him and .... we end up with somebody like Degen who is a joke.  If he has not used up our young talents... lets see how many of them gone out of the club and made to the top. Except Warnock I cant see any of them playing top class football. That is why Rafa wanted to have control over the Academy so that we can not only bring in prospects but also develop them into good footballers.  of course, everything can be termed as excuse but then blaming Rafa for everything is also an excuse for some people.  Think about it With an Average squad we did push Man utd all the way last year... if that is not a testament for the manager than what is. I believe as fans we should support the club, its staff and players and hope the owners do the same

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  124. Max how old are you?

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  125. the year 2004-05 shows £46.1million in gross spending.  Can you please explain Is it that entire money spent by Rafa during that period? Who are the players we bought with that kind of money? 

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  126. Anfield81 - It's the pro-Benitez Anti-Defamation League (anyone who finds that label insulting? Get over it already) that causes all the aggro in the comments. Anytime something is posted they latch onto anything that could be (mis)perceived as placing him in a bad light, and then proceed to roll out their list of tired excuses.
    Take these transfer articles I've been doing. I offer no editorial comment yet immediately, Benitez's watchdogs are on the case.
    Last week, I posted Benitez's entire career stats. This was just a statement of fact, again with no editorial commentary. Apparently that was also an attack on Benitez (!). The fact that the stats made him look good was an irony lost on the pro-benitez brigade.
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  127. That money is everything spent from 31 july 04 till 31 july 2005. Part of the transfer activity for two summers is included. That's how the accounts calculate it.
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  128. Can *everyone* stop the pointless one-upmanship please. Debate the issues. Any further posts that continue in this vein will be deleted (on both sides). Thanks.
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  129. I accept that Jaimie, I honestly do, but are you not bored of all of your articles now turning into a Pro v Anti Benitez slanging match?

    In the case of the article to which you are refering I did wonder (being neither Pro nor Anti anyone!) why you did it based on each manager's entire career stats and not just a comparison of each manager since Benitez arrived in the EPL? I think I've got the right one - the one comparing his stats with Mourinho, Ferguson, MON?

    To be honest, and please don't take this the wrong way, I think you may have had less of an attack from the Pro Benitez Party if you did the comparison from 2004 when he arrived in the EPL. From what I read a lot of the people were arguing about MON's time in Scotland being included as it had a huge impact on his success rate.

    I do agree that the SPL is a 2nd Class flagship League to a certain extent and if Gordon Strachan can go to Celtic and do a better job than MON (Trophy wise) then perhaps it isn't such a strong League afterall?

    I'd hasten to add I think MON is a good manager, perhaps not right for LFC but a good manager all the same.

    I do think your recent articles have been far more balanced in terms of appealing to both sets of "opposing factions" but again unfortunately some will just use the information as a means to defemate/congratulate Benitez' abilities and so we are stuck on the merry-go-round!

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  130. I accept that Jaimie, I honestly do, but are you not bored of all of your articles now turning into a Pro v Anti Benitez slanging match?

    In the case of the article to which you are refering I did wonder (being neither Pro nor Anti anyone!) why you did it based on each manager's entire career stats and not just a comparison of each manager since Benitez arrived in the EPL? I think I've got the right one - the one comparing his stats with Mourinho, Ferguson, MON?

    To be honest, and please don't take this the wrong way, I think you may have had less of an attack from the Pro Benitez Party if you did the comparison from 2004 when he arrived in the EPL. From what I read a lot of the people were arguing about MON's time in Scotland being included as it had a huge impact on his success rate.

    I do agree that the SPL is a 2nd Class flagship League to a certain extent and if Gordon Strachan can go to Celtic and do a better job than MON (Trophy wise) then perhaps it isn't such a strong League afterall?

    I'd hasten to add I think MON is a good manager, perhaps not right for LFC but a good manager all the same.

    I do think your recent articles have been far more balanced in terms of appealing to both sets of "opposing factions" but again unfortunately some will just use the information as a means to defemate/congratulate Benitez' abilities and so we are stuck on the merry-go-round!

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  131. I accept that Jaimie, I honestly do, but are you not bored of all of your articles now turning into a Pro v Anti Benitez slanging match?

    In the case of the article to which you are refering I did wonder (being neither Pro nor Anti anyone!) why you did it based on each manager's entire career stats and not just a comparison of each manager since Benitez arrived in the EPL? I think I've got the right one - the one comparing his stats with Mourinho, Ferguson, MON?

    To be honest, and please don't take this the wrong way, I think you may have had less of an attack from the Pro Benitez Party if you did the comparison from 2004 when he arrived in the EPL. From what I read a lot of the people were arguing about MON's time in Scotland being included as it had a huge impact on his success rate.

    I do agree that the SPL is a 2nd Class flagship League to a certain extent and if Gordon Strachan can go to Celtic and do a better job than MON (Trophy wise) then perhaps it isn't such a strong League afterall?

    I'd hasten to add I think MON is a good manager, perhaps not right for LFC but a good manager all the same.

    I do think your recent articles have been far more balanced in terms of appealing to both sets of "opposing factions" but again unfortunately some will just use the information as a means to defemate/congratulate Benitez' abilities and so we are stuck on the merry-go-round!

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  132. Bored? Not at all. The comments may end up being a battle between both sides but I think that's true of any discussion on Benitez. It's just the nature of fandom. Plus, within that exchange there are lots of great points made on both sides.
    Re the total career stats article. I did Benitez by himself first. Then people were asking for a comparison with other LFC managers. The entire career thing for non-LFC mgrs just felt like a natural progression.
    The thing is, if Benitez was at the top of the total career stat comparison, his supporters wouldn't have a problem. As soon as he's not number 1 - or behind someone they perceive to be a weaker manager - sparks start to fly.
    They only wanted a prem manager stat comparison between 04 and 09 so that O'Neill would be behind Benitez!
    Its not fair to compare O'Neill with RB in the league anyway. You have to compare like with like. Villa are a B grade club; less resources; less ability to attract top players; less revenue etc. It's like comparing Man U with Fulham. Ferguson will obviously come out on top. For an 04-09 comparison, it's only fair to compare LFC with Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U. Villa should be compared to the likes of Spurs, Man City, Everton etc.
    If you want to be fair, of course.
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  133. Perhaps it includes Cisse...

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  134. KANWAR IS DUNK9:09 pm, May 27, 2010

    I've read through most of the comments on this site and read a few of the articles. Kanwar I would find you somewhat credible if you didn't turn every little thing into an attack on benitez

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  135. You seem to be labouring under the deluded misapprehension that I give a damn whether you find me 'somewhat credible'.  Let me clearu the confusion for you:

    I don't!

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  136. No, it doesn't.  Cisse was signed way before July 31st 2004; his fee is in the 2003-4 report.

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  137. KANWAR IS DUNK9:52 pm, May 27, 2010

    Ah good old sarcasm The high level of intelligence I've seen on this site. Kanwar pog mo thoin

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  138. Max,

    Seriously if you're going to debate with someone you need to learn to read and understand their comments. I am not suggesting that trophies are not important in fact at the end of my last post to you I state that as a liverpool fan I want the club to win everything. The point i'm making is that the owners themselves have not indiciated the winning of trophies as a prority for the club they seem happy if the club continues to qualify for the CL. You suggested that Benitez's priorities were not on trophies and I was providing a reaons for why this may be ... because the owners don't care they're focused on the revenue generated from the CL.

    I agree with what  you have to say about the owners and but how exactly is this Benitez's fault. Any manager would be effected by as you put it the 'two donkeys' running the club. I don't think Benitez is perfect and maybe he should go but we should make sure that we get the right person to replace him. H&G don't care about the club its a franchise for them!

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  139. Wenger is a great Manager no debate imo,and his net spend well out shines Rafa but for me Wenger has much better owners behind at the club than we do at liverpool  at this is also imo a factor to be considered.

    Wenger has been better in the league while Rafa has been better in Europe , but Wenger less net spend also has been imo had a negative effect on how they have done over the lat 6 years , seems to be money has been available but Wenger hasn't spent it , when at time he has needed to bring experienced player to help the younger players and imo has cost Arsenal silverware over the last 6 years.
    Somewhere between a mix of Rafa and Wenger you just might have a perfect Manager .. both could learn from one another imo..

    .

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  140. I know Jamie will say there no proof more money has been available to wenger but plenty of times the Directors/Owners  and Arsenal chief Ivan Gazidis has said theres is but have all praised him for been prudent with the clubs finances , something that has to be admired but if its there sometime you need to spend even if it is with to much caution .

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  141. I appreciate your point Jaimie (with regard to Villa being a B Grade Club) to a certain extent, but the fact is the line between a top class club and a second class club is very lucid now - look at Tottenham, they are now whether we like it or not a class A Club as are Man City, but at the same time Spurs (NET) have spent less on players since 2006 than MON has at Villa.

    I think it's perfectly justifiable to compare Villa to ourselves in terms of resources, they may not have the stature of LFC but MON has certainly had the resources at his disposal to compete since the arrival of Lerner (I'm aware he hired MON).

    I'd also add, from what you're saying Villa should be compared to Everton, Tottenham & Man City in that respect MON's win ratio compared to Mark Hughes, Harry Redknapp & David Moyes is last.

    Mark Hughes - 43.62% (Blackburn) & 46.75% (Man City).
    Roberto Mancini - 51.85%
    David Moyes - 42.41%
    Harry Redknapp - 42.19% (Portsmouth) & 52.75% (Tottenham)
    MON - 42.11%

    As you've said that is the only fair comparison and it this comparison MON doesn't even come out on top in the "B Grade" Club manager battle, perhaps even more alarmingly he fails to beat Hughes' record at Blackburn and 'Arry at Portsmouth!

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  142. I appreciate your point Jaimie (with regard to Villa being a B Grade Club) to a certain extent, but the fact is the line between a top class club and a second class club is very lucid now - look at Tottenham, they are now whether we like it or not a class A Club as are Man City, but at the same time Spurs (NET) have spent less on players since 2006 than MON has at Villa.

    I think it's perfectly justifiable to compare Villa to ourselves in terms of resources, they may not have the stature of LFC but MON has certainly had the resources at his disposal to compete since the arrival of Lerner (I'm aware he hired MON).

    I'd also add, from what you're saying Villa should be compared to Everton, Tottenham & Man City in that respect MON's win ratio compared to Mark Hughes, Harry Redknapp & David Moyes is last.

    Mark Hughes - 43.62% (Blackburn) & 46.75% (Man City).
    Roberto Mancini - 51.85%
    David Moyes - 42.41%
    Harry Redknapp - 42.19% (Portsmouth) & 52.75% (Tottenham)
    MON - 42.11%

    As you've said that is the only fair comparison and it this comparison MON doesn't even come out on top in the "B Grade" Club manager battle, perhaps even more alarmingly he fails to beat Hughes' record at Blackburn and 'Arry at Portsmouth!

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  143. I appreciate your point Jaimie (with regard to Villa being a B Grade Club) to a certain extent, but the fact is the line between a top class club and a second class club is very lucid now - look at Tottenham, they are now whether we like it or not a class A Club as are Man City, but at the same time Spurs (NET) have spent less on players since 2006 than MON has at Villa.

    I think it's perfectly justifiable to compare Villa to ourselves in terms of resources, they may not have the stature of LFC but MON has certainly had the resources at his disposal to compete since the arrival of Lerner (I'm aware he hired MON).

    I'd also add, from what you're saying Villa should be compared to Everton, Tottenham & Man City in that respect MON's win ratio compared to Mark Hughes, Harry Redknapp & David Moyes is last.

    Mark Hughes - 43.62% (Blackburn) & 46.75% (Man City).
    Roberto Mancini - 51.85%
    David Moyes - 42.41%
    Harry Redknapp - 42.19% (Portsmouth) & 52.75% (Tottenham)
    MON - 42.11%

    As you've said that is the only fair comparison and it this comparison MON doesn't even come out on top in the "B Grade" Club manager battle, perhaps even more alarmingly he fails to beat Hughes' record at Blackburn and 'Arry at Portsmouth!

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  144. My god Jamie, you are clutching at straws they Acquisitions, it doesn't mean they are full paid FULL, your using Directors notes for future accounts.

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  145. My god Jamie, you are clutching at straws they are Acquisitions, it doesn't mean they are paid in FULL, your using Directors/Accountants notes for future accounts.

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  146. Jamie,

    I'm sorry I don't understand your logic here. Benitez wasn't manager of Liverpool at the time when Weneger was winnning his titles at Arsenal and remaining unbeaten in the league. So you only compare what the two have achieved since Benitez became manager and to that extent an argument can be made that Benitez has been more successful in the league. That doesn't mean Benitez is a better manager - far from it I would love to have Wenger at Liverpool as I think like others that he is one of the best managers and coaches in the world.

    It is clear that you don't like the style of football under Benitez but to be honest whilst I enjoyed the attacking football under Evans it has been benitez that our European reputation and pedigree has been restored and he did get us to a whisker of winning the PL 2 seasons ago even if his over caution in games ultimately go us there. Its a fine balance. That is not to say that Benitez ultimately does not have to go but we have to make sure we get the right person and that will depend on the owners.

    I also don't think its correct to say that Wenger's net spend is indictive of one hand being tied behind his back. Arsenal's board have consistently stated that there is money for him to spend. Wenger has said publicly on a number of occassions that he doesn't like to spend huge sums of money on big time players because he feels that it undermines the development of his younger players and creates unfair competition.

    “It is true there is money and people reproach me for not losing money,” Wenger said. “It is not a personal thing, it is just that I have a squad that is strong enough to compete.

    “We have worked with the young players and I am at a stage where they are now coming through — Abou Diaby, Denilson, Alex Song, Cesc Fàbregas, Theo Walcott, Carlos Vela, Aaron Ramsey. I have so many players and if I buy now in front of them, I will not find better players.

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  147. Jamie,  
     
    I'm sorry I don't understand your logic here. Benitez wasn't manager of Liverpool at the time when Weneger was winnning his titles at Arsenal and remaining unbeaten in the league. So you only compare what the two have achieved since Benitez became manager and to that extent an argument can be made that Benitez has been more successful in the league. That doesn't mean Benitez is a better manager - far from it I would love to have Wenger at Liverpool as I think like others that he is one of the best managers and coaches in the world.  
     
    It is clear that you don't like the style of football under Benitez but to be honest whilst I enjoyed the attacking football under Evans it has been under benitez that our European reputation and pedigree has been restored and he did get us to a whisker of winning the PL 2 seasons ago even if his over caution in games ultimately cost us, he still got us there. Its a fine balance. That is not to say that Benitez ultimately does not have to go but we have to make sure we get the right person and that will depend on the owners.  
     
    I also don't think its correct to say that Wenger's net spend is indictive of one hand being tied behind his back. Arsenal's board have consistently stated that there is money for him to spend. Wenger has said publicly on a number of occassions that he doesn't like to spend huge sums of money on big time players because he feels that he has a strong enough squad and  it undermines the development of his younger players and creates unfair competition.  
     
    “It is true there is money and people reproach me for not losing money,” Wenger said. “It is not a personal thing, it is just that I have a squad that is strong enough to compete.  
     
    “We have worked with the young players and I am at a stage where they are now coming through — Abou Diaby, Denilson, Alex Song, Cesc Fàbregas, Theo Walcott, Carlos Vela, Aaron Ramsey. I have so many players and if I buy now in front of them, I will not find better players.

    Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/exclusive-rafa-benitez-vs-arsene-wenger.html#ixzz0pDe1XkGJ

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  148. Surely the point herre is that over that time Arsenal have put a huge amount of financial resource into a state of the art stadium which will help them financially in the future, Liverpool haven't even so much as put a brick on the ground. I wonder  how Benitez would have done if LFC had been committed to a 400m pound stadium during that same time.

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  149. Maths not your strong point is it.

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