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11/16/2009 11:16:00 am

13 reasons why Liverpool should sell JAVIER MASCHERANO

After trying his best to engineer a move away from Anfield in the summer, rumours are flying again that Javier Mascherano is on the verge of leaving Liverpool. So where’s the problem? Why can’t Liverpool just let him leave? There seems to be this idea that Mascherano is somehow irreplaceable and integral to Liverpool’s success, but in my view, Liverpool could cope perfectly well without him.

As a matter of recorded fact, Javier Mascherano wanted to leave Anfield in the summer. Despite Liverpool resurrecting his career; the team coming close to winning the title, and guaranteed Champions League football every year, Anfield was apparently not good enough for Argentina’s captain.

Benitez blocked a proposed move to Barcelona and later revealed that Mascherano was ‘disappointed’ (!) at having to stay at Liverpool.

Fans regularly argue that Masch ‘is an integral part of the spine of the team’ or ‘he’s the best defensive midfielder in the world’. I just do not believe those things are true. Here is a list of reasons why Liverpool should sell Mascherano:

1. He clearly wants to leave. His form has arguably dropped as a result of being forced to stay at Anfield. His family is allegedly unsettled. Why keep an unhappy player? Additionally, according to Guillem Balague, the relationship between Benitez and Mascherano is not that great. On his site today, Balague stated:

"It could be said that the relationship between Benitez and Mascherano has not been at its best...and Liverpool`s results at the start of this season have not helped matters: with the player clearly drawn to the possibility of playing at the Camp Nou".

Benitez alienating another player? Surely not!

2. There are several clubs who would pay big money for Mascherano. Sell him now so we can get the best price possible. Delay, and his price may go down.

3. Defensive duty aside, Mascherano offers very little to the team in terms of creativity.

4. Mascherano may have a high pass-completion rate, but how many of his passes are positive and direct, as opposed to sideways/backwards/short passes?

5. Defensive midfielders are REPLACEABLE. That position should not be the most important role in the team. Is it possible to find DM who can do a comparable job to Mascherano? Absolutely.

6. Masch is increasingly prone to costly errors - his most recent glaring mistakes came against:

Chelsea (2 – 0 defeat this season);
Arsenal (x2 in the 4-4 league draw)
Chelsea again (4-4 CL game last season).

These mistakes (and others he has made) cast doubt on the notion that Mascherano is the best DM in the world.

7. Mascherano’s stats since he came to Liverpool:

106 appearances
Wins - 60
Draws - 29
Defeats - 17
Goals - 1

That’s 46 games Liverpool has failed to win with Mascherano in the side, 29 of which were draws. It is also no coincidence that since Liverpool signed him, the number of draws each season has skyrocketed, with 24 league draws in the last two full seasons.

Is this the best Liverpool can do? Are we to believe that no other defensive midfielder on the planet can help Liverpool improve this? I submit that there are other DM’s out there who could achieve a similar (or better) record; would WANT to play for the club, and would perhaps contribute more going forward.

8. Mascherano averages only 25 league starts a season. How integral to our league form can he be?

9. Liverpool cope just fine in the league without Mascherano:

2009-2010: Liverpool thrashed Hull 6-1 without M (he was a late sub)
2008-2009: 6 games without M (3 wins/3 draws)
2007-08: 5 games without M (4 wins/1 draw)

Basically, Liverpool have never lost a league game with Mascherano out of the team. Pretty good record if you ask me.

10. Liverpool fans often argue that Mascherano makes the difference against the top teams. Is this true? I've examined all games Mascherano has played against top class opposition. This means Chelsea, Man United, Arsenal, Real Madrid and Inter Milan.

Played - 25
Wins - 12
Draws - 6
Defeats - 7

* 13 games against top opposition in which Liverpool failed to win with Mascherano in the team. It can also be looked at as 18 games unbeaten (wins + draws), but I would rather Liverpool were winning more games against the top teams, rather than simply not losing. Is this a record to be envied the world over? Could it be improved? Absolutely no question about it.

11. Defensive midfield is not a priority position for Liverpool at the moment. The money from Masch's sale could help fund a back-up striker, a top class central defender, and/or a top class left-back/left winger.

12. Liverpool's defensive record is atrocious this season. Considering Masch is supposed to be an integral part of the defensive side of the team, how is the club benefiting from his alleged status as 'the best defensive midfielder in the world'?

This season, Masch has made 15 appearances: W7 L6 D2 Goals against - 21

13. Selling Masch for a huge profit would be excellent business for the club. If we can get 30m for him, that would be a profit of 12m.

Mascherano is not irreplaceable, and it is surely possible to find players who can do a similar, if not better job than him, isn't it? I see no compelling reasons to keep him at the club, and in my mind there is only one solution: sell him to the highest bidder and use the money to further strengthen the team.

If Mascherano IS so integral to Liverpool, I would be very interested in specific examples of how and why.

One question to consider: If having an allegedly 'world class defensive midfielder' is so important, how is it Man United have won three league titles and a CL trophy in three years without one?!





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169 Comments :

rick said...

Perfect analysys

Rickster said...

Can some one tell Rafa this? well said.

gashortash said...

Remind me who made the tackle to get the ball to Kuyt, to set up Babel in the 2-1 win over Man Utd at Anfield last season?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1iu3dDkM3s

Yes we battered Hull without Mascherano, but he wasn't needed that day, he's there to break up attacks from the top teams, his role last season allowed Alonso to play properly.

When he makes a brilliant challenge, do you stand there slagging him off on the kop? I bet you don't ; you wait to get behind the safety of your computer screen to slag the team off again.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

This is not slagging the team off at all.  I am suggesting reasons why *shock horror* Liverpool might not wither and die if Mascherano was to leave.

And your only evidence for him to stay is one incident in a game last season?!

DITCH said...

if barca really wants Masch for £30+ rafa should sell!

Guest said...

<span>It would be a travesty if we lose Masch - best DM in the world. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>Even though he is still very young, he is already the Argentina captain. The "Little Chief" is not just a great reader of the game, but also a Leader. Possessing great pace, tackling ability, passing accuracy and total commitment. Unlike others in the team, he is a true winner and hates to lose.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>£36m is a lot of money, but it shows that someone is willing to pay for Quality. People were saying that £30m was a great deal for Alonso, as we made £20m on the deal, but look what we've lost.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>There are many DMs about but one of the quality of Mascho, in my opinion IS IRREPLACEABLE.</span>



Reed

makmanaman said...

Agree, we can live without macherano, he can be a liability anyway, there are many players out there who can do a similar job, cana, sissoko, plessis, lucas. I would sell him for £35m and buy a top striker and centre back.

Lfc4life said...

Interesting article....
tho im Not sure stats tell the whole story.
In 106 odd appearances you can only pinpoint 4 occations where goals possibly resulted by his mistakes....
But they are the only ones i can think off. Thats almost flawless!
I think carra has made that many this season alone, along with insua.
In a team that is performing well, he is ideal... But when the defence as a whole is questionable(agger apart) then theres not much he can do to stop the goals.
Its true he doesnt offer much going forward... But as a defensive midfielder hes one of the best in the world! And that exactly what he is employed to be liverpool... And for me he does that very well... I will agree there was a slight dip in his form, but that can be said for the whole team....
But i agree hes not irreplaceable and if we can get £35m+ for him then im with u and will give you 35 reasons why he should be sold....
As you stated that money could go along to bettering our squad......
Or paying off the yank debt:s

Still credit where credit is due, some good research there jamie.

CUEBOY said...

One of the most ridiculous articles ive read in a long time . Liverpool have at best 5 world class players, and like it not Mascherano is one of those 5.
 Now although i do agree that you should never keep a player who does not want to stay . Where i dont agree is that we should sell because there are teams that would pay big money for him . Do you not think there is a very good reason for that. Maybe its because he is world class.
 And as for his creativity , well on that basis should we not be looking to move on Carragher and Skrtel . Oh thats right creativity is not a attribute they are expected to bring to the team.
 Your next point about Defensive midfielders being replaceable , Well why dont you ask Real Madrid how easy it was to replace Makele when he left for Chelsea . In fact if im not mistaken , Zidane's words were "irreplacable". Now i reckon he would have a superior knowledge of the game than you.
As for our defensive record this season , Well if you want to blame Mascherano alone , then to be honest i am probably wasting my time replying to this article . As you are obviously so anti - Mascherano that nothing will change your opinion.
As for statistics , well the great thing about stats is you can make them read whatever it is you want them to.
 All i know is Mascherano is without doubt the best Defensive Midfield player in the world. And when he is missing from our line-up we are not the same team.
One thing i did notice was missing from your article was any potential replacements , you were very quick to tell us how easy he could be replaced . Could you not of enlightened us all with the candidates that could so easily replace him .

Numbers said...

Lets face it, due to financial negligence at the club (too strong? How about debt funded greed by our current owners?) Our beloved club has slipped out of the top echelons of European and domestic football.  The fans know it, the players know it, the club owners and money men know it.  As a result we are now rich pickings for those clubs that have been well run and want to unsettle our players - hell it's not hard, all you have to do is point to our current ambitions with no investment.  Alonso's head was turned, so too now Masch... there will be others before this season draws to a close.  It is the leadership from the top of the shop that is creating this uncertainty and if Liverpool want to show what they are about, then they MUST NOT sell players of the calibre of Masch or Alonso and we need to get this refinancing package sorted (it's only the end of next month when the RBS/Watchovia finance deal ends and no one appears to have stepped forward to re-finance tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee's big gamble)...

Guest said...

We should have took the money in the summer and bought lorik cana,if he doesnt want to be here then f##k him! paul huyton

Jaimie Kanwar said...

1. You still have not provided any reasons/examples of why JM is apparently 'the best defensive midfielder in the world'.  I have offered evidence as to why I believe he's replaceable.  Where is your evidence?

2. You diss the stats, but only because they do not support your POV.  Typical tactics really.

3. I never said LFC's defensive woes were solely down to JM.  When the going go tough this season, did Mascherano make a difference defensively?  No.

4. As for replacements - I have argued the case for Lorik Cana many times before.  There are also the likes of Lassana Diarra, Lee Cattermole, Daniele Di Rossie, Steven Defour etc.  We don't the nest defensive mid in the world; we need someone who can do that job to a top level but also adds something more.

5. DM should not be the most imprtant position in the team.  This moder phenomenon of having 1 or 2 holding mids is too cautious.  We should be aiming to have a good DM and superior attacking players (IMO).

One thing to consider: under Houllier and The first couple of years of Benitez's reign, defence was never the problem.  Liverpool regularly had the best defensive record (or thereabouts).  Good attacking players have been the problem for Liverpool, and this is what needs to be addressed.

It's ironic to me that since Mascherano arrived, Liverpool have drawn and lost more games than ever.

Dan said...

Who are you going to replace him with then smart arse?!?!?

jason said...

If bonitez sells macherano liverpool will suffer greatly. look what happend when we sold Alonso. dont be an idiot benitez he is the best deffensive midfielder we have.

Guest said...

If he wants to go, he wants to go. I can think of a number of reasons why he should stay though.

1) when you analysed him, you said "defensive duties aside." Thats the strongest part of his game. You don't analyse Torres by saying "Attacking qualities aside, his work rate isnt the best" or something similar. Masc's role is to win the ball, and he is great at doing that.

2)Him leaving leaves Lucas to defend our back four. shudder.

3) The Yanks would suck that money right out of the club and into their pockets.

4) Everyone makes mistakes in football. I don't care who you are. Masc does not make very many.

But, yeah, ultimately I can see him going in the summer- no way is he leaving in January. I just think the team will be much much weaker without him. At best the Yanks will fund a £10-15million replacement, and it will be basically swapping a sure thing for someone who has not yet proven themselves to be world class.

This season sucks :(

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Why is there this mental block when it comes to fans re certain players.  In my last 3 articles, I have discussed the merits of Dirk Kuyt, Fabiou Aurelio and now Mascherano, and the upshot is that according to the fans, there are no players in world football capable of replacing those three!

They are apparently the best Liverpool can do in their respective positions.

Ridiculous inflexibility in my view.

All three are replaceable, and all three WILL be replaced at some stage.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Why will Liverpool 'suffer greatly'?

The proof that this is wrong is the fact that Liverpool have never lost a game when Masch has been out of the team.

r0w4n10 said...

are you stupid....sell mascharano? why dont we sell Reina as well, we could probably get a good profit and there are plenty of other good goalies out there..we need to keep our best players not sell them because they offer us a good profit. Mascha is good, young and has desire. Ignore all the barca stuff he has never come out and said he wants to go its pure media speculation!

Guest said...

Frankly speaking, I agree with what you write.... for 30 M on our current situation its should be a very good biz. Not to say Masch is not a good player, but we need other player at different position.... with those Yank still didn't want to move out.... w

Aiyic said...

I'm caught in two minds on this one. I have a feeling that Aquilani would make a great partnership with him, as their talents fill the spectum of skills required for a dynamic midfield. I don't think his game is really that much off to be fair - it's a bit of a media myth I think.

The opposition hate playing against him, as he doesn't give them a minute. But in saying that, I believe he has other strings to his bow - as we see when he plays for the Argies - but Rafa has strict instructions for him to follow.

He really reminds me of David Batty - a great little battler who was signed by Dalglish at Blackburn. There mybe ready-made replacements for Mascherano, but I can't really think of any. I know we missed the boat on Cana, but that's all.

Having said all that, I don't like the thought of having to convince a player to stay with us. There can be some genuine and compelling reasons why someone might not wish to stay, but this case really looks like he wants to buddy up with Messi. To which there is a simple solution: sign Leo.

Rafa Benitez said...

1 reason why jaimie Kenwar is wrong - mascarano is a beast. You make me laugh

Jevon said...

You still have not said who you would bring in to replace him. Lets have it.

Rafa Benitez said...

Why dont we sell gerrard aswel for 30m and maybe torres 70, then we'll have loadsa money woooooooooooo :)

Guest said...

You're an idiot with an agenda Kanwaar.

Rafa Benitez said...

Supposedly theres an 80% sell on clause meaning if we were to sell him for 30m then we'd actual;ly be losing money

Rafa Benitez said...

so no it wouldnt be great business

sal said...

I agree - I sold him on my football manager during the summer... just because of the way he has conducted himself.  Not every player is gonna have Torres' attitude - but stating you want to leave and being openly disappointed when this doesn't happen is shocking - just go back to counting your money you silly sod, and play for one of the most prestigious sides in the world across any sport (fact). 

One question:  who would we bring in????   

mark said...

<span><span>"3</span>. Defensive duty aside, Mascherano offers very little to the team in terms of creativity."</span>
he is not in the side to be creative. it's not his role. he is being asked to perform a very specific role, and he is one of the best players on the planet at doing that.

<span>
<span>"4</span>. Mascherano may have a high pass-completion rate, but how many of his passes are positive and direct, as opposed to sideways/backwards/short passes?"</span>
again, down to what he is being asked to do. he is being asked to keep the ball moving and retain possession. his passing stats are fantastic.it is down to other players in the team to make an offensive difference.

<span><span>"5</span>. Defensive midfielders are <span>REPLACEABLE.</span> That position should not be the most important role in the team. Is it possible to find DM who can do a comparable job to Mascherano? Absolutely."</span>

any position is replaceable....but you can replace with a less talented player. that is why he is highly coverted and barcelona would happily pay £30m for him right now. would they do that with lee carsley? no, of course not.
also, in your previous article about glen johnson, you say that right back isn't the most important position on the pitch. no defensive midfielders aren't either. so that's 2 positions out of 11 that you can afford to fill with lesser players. any more positions that aren't important.

mascherano IS one of the best midfielders in the world. we need talented players out there, and as an international captain, his experience will be invaluable.

he shouldn't be sold because liverpool need good players in key positions. who would replace him?

our midfield looked so much better with him there instead of sissoko.

saying that, if he really doesn't want to be there, get rid. but that should be the only reason.

Rafa Benitez said...

we would recieve 6m thus losing 12m on him, this is why Jaimie isn't me

rick said...

I believe that We have to watch the evidence of facts: there are many talented football players as Scottie Parker, Michael Carrick (Yes, surely), Lee Cattermole, Cana, with tecnical abilities, Who can offer more than Mascherano because They protect the defensive line with a good position game, good passes, tecnical abilities.
Mascherano always did a great number of fouls, He did wrongs.
Is Masch a good passing player? Yes, certainly, He makes only passes of 4.5 metres. Is this the kind of football that Rafa Wants? Tico - Taco football?
Should We sold Him? Yes, Now! We have to sell him in the January Transfer Window and replacing him with a such good DMP player like Scottie Parker or possibily Tom Huddlestone!!!
I Believe that We also need to discuss the evidence of Xabi Alonso's sell because i Suggest that Alonso's departure is not been demanded by the Owners.

Guest said...

Lee Cattermole or Lorik Cana instead of Mascherano?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Which is a lie.  Provide evidence for that.

KBill76 said...

I think you vastly overstate the fact that Mash wanted to leave in the summer, the nearest you've ever been able to come to a source on this is quoting other people, admittedly including Rafa himself but not a single word directly from Mascherano... ever. For me it's evident that his head was turned but also that he's handled himself professionally and is a million miles from a player actively agitating for a move. None of the recent media speculation has any solid base and indeed is highly unlikely given the presidential situation at Barca.
Have to agree with Cueboy on the Zidane comment about Makele, exactly what I thought when reading Jaimie's opinion that the DM position isn't important.
At the end of the day though - irrespective of Mr Kanwar's judgement of a player's ability (this being the man who'd like to see Paul Konchesky as our LB) it comes down to one thing really.. 
In a recent 'official' ranking of players Masch was the highest rated DM player in the world.
He's sought after by the biggest clubs in the world.
He's by far and away our best DM player - can't believe even JK can argue with that one.

Therefore, why on earth would we be happy to lose someone, to our main competitors, who is bedded into the team, key to how Rafa likes to play, could NOT be replaced like for like for anything less than £15m (you mention Diarra FFS! an starter for Real - who's rejects cost well over £10m)
and who shows enviable levels of commitment & energy every time he steps onto the park. 

The assertion that he only ever passes short/sideways/backwards points to someone who's view of Masch was set in stone last season - unless you've been blinded by your myopic view of Rafa you must surely have seen the numerous cross-field passes he's been spraying around this season - doing a decent impersonation of Alonso - I'm not saying he's great as an attacking asset but his passing has far more range than you give him credit for.

I can see how the maths might be attractive but it would be ludicrous to part with one of our top 5 players (in terms of ability, commitment, influence on the game, leadership and, let's be honest - world renown) for any amount of money. As another poster pointed out - this argument would suggest that getting £30m for Alonso was good business  - another case of you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

So no, I wouldn't want to ship out one of our very best players for £12m profit. We might as well become a feeder club if we cash in on all our high value assets so readily.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yes.  If not, why not?  And don't come out with cliches like 'but he's the captain of Argentina'.  That is not a reason - it is a fact.

We do not need a supposed 'world class' DM.  Do Man United have such a player?  No, and they have won the league 3 years in a row.

Guest said...

we should sell Mascherano (his mind is not with liverpool anymore), play Lucas and Aquilani in the middle ( game for game, Lucas has had a better season so far than Mascherano doing the same job) and use the money to buy a top top striker (I hope the reports of the Eduardo bid are true )

Sowellred said...

Defensive midfielders cannot use the statistics that you use to support success in their role within the team. You would need to use stats like;

takles won (compared to other midfielders)
times possession was given away
value in the market

Here's a stat for you:

Estimated price for Mascherano £30 Million

Estimated price for the next best defensive midfielders £22 to £25 Million for Essien. Then who else is worth over £15 Million. Mascherano is the highest valued defensive midfielder in the world. In fact, with the exception of Essien, no other player in a similar position is worth half that.

Also, how many defensive midfielders make captain of their national team? How influential do you think the international football community think Mascherano is??!

DONT SELL YOUR BEST PLAYERS RAFA.

R said...

5 world class players? I can think of Three....Torres, Gerrard, Reina...thats it!!!

makmanaman said...

what will happen is -  benitez will hang o to him as long as he can - barca will put the correct bid in last minute in the Jan transfer window and benitez wont have time to buy anyone else.
standard.

Guest said...

Mach clearly wants 2 leave so sell him for 30m+ to barca and buy lassano Diarra from real Madrid for 20m.... JOB DONE

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Feeder club?  The difference here is that both Alonso and Masch WANT/WANTED to leave.  It's not a case of both players leaving because the club wanted the money.

Re masch wanting to leave - his own brother admitted this publicly - do you really think he would make such statements without masch's knowledge?

And Benitez amitted publicly that he wanted to leave. It makes no difference whether Masch himself confirmed it.  Why would he?

So what if he's top of the DM rankings 0- we need to look at our own team and decide if we actually *need* an alleged 'world class' DM. 

Why do we need him?  Why couldn't someone else do a similar job?  What is so special about Mascherano?

As I mentioned above - Man United do not have DM comparable to mascherano.  Do they suffer?  No.  They've won the league 3 years in a row and CL with Darren Fletcher in that role!

As i said, DM should not be the most important role in the team.  Attacking players are more important, and as long as you have someone who is competent as a DM, it con't make that much difference.

Liverpool have never had world class DM's in the past, yet it never harmed our ability to win trophies.  We've always had progressive DM's who could both atack and defend. Souness and McMahon being the most obvious examples.

having a top-class DM is a modern phenomenon, and you usually find this position prioritised in teams that have a defensive-minded manager, i.e Benitez.

With teams like barcelona it's different - when your entire emphasis and philosophy is based on attack, then it makes more sense to have a top class DM because the 6 other players ahead of him will be attacking flat out.

This is not the case at Liverpool.  We have 4 defenders, 2 friggin hlding midfielder and one defensive right-winger!  That leaves only 3 outfield players who are allowed to attack outright, but even then that's not allowed as Benitez runs attacking players into the ground with his demands for tracking back and defending.

You do not need world class players in every position - that is an unattainable ideal.  You can get away with having good quality, solid players in some postions, including left back and defensive mid.

We should be focusing on improving the quality of our attacking players.

Guest said...

WHo would you rather have in the team Kanwaar, Masch or Fletcher?

Sowellred said...

Another stat;

I just texted 20 pals who support various teams and 16 of those 20 put Mascherano in thier world dream dream teams in the defensive midfielder position.

Three votes went to Essien and 1 went for Gattuso 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

if it was choice of paying 30m for Masch and 10m for Fletcher, I would choose Fletcher.  He plays the same role Man United and does so effectively.  Ferguson is a good judge of players, plus he is not stupid enough to waste 30m on defensive midfielder, probably because he knows he can get a player like Fletcher doing the same job at a fraction of the price.

Guest said...

COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!!

R said...

A LEADER?? A LEADER?? At what point in his Liverpool career has he shown any leadership qualities? Not once!!

You can see his leadership qualities from Argentina's abysmal performances this year in their World Cup qualifying campaign.

He might be quite tenacious, but this article is right because he offers nothing more than breaking up plays. Lucas has been our most consistent player this season and there's so many narrow minded, blinkered fans out there who listen to the propaganda from the Press and the Rafa Hate Campaign in the Press, that they refuse to admit it even though they know watching the match that he's actually a good young player.

Mash showed his ridiculous temperament getting sent off the other week. He is a liability who we can do without. £36 MILLION???
SNAP THEIR ARM OFF!!!!!!

Rafa Benitez said...

Okay he may not have been def mid but didnt he waste a shed load on Veron???? when they had scholes playing the same role numpty

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You just don't get it do you?  Why are you basiing your view of what is best for TEAM on things that are irrelevant?!  Who cares is he's captain of Argentina?  Who cares what the international community thinks of him?  Another player could do Mascherano's job, and that would give Liverpool 30m to spend on better attacking players.

I don't want a world class defensive mid; I want a world class winger/link man.

As I've repeated already: United do not have a 'world class' DM - if it's so important, how have they won three league titles and the CL in the last 3 years?!

Guest said...

<span>"Benitez alienating another player? Surely not!</span><span>"</span>

<span>Couldn't help yourself but have another sly dig at Benitez hey?
</span>

Guest said...

And the remaining money from the transfer can go towards repayment of the loans as was the case with Alonso....

Jaimie Kanwar said...

And this is relevant...how?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Not a sly dig - truth.  Crouch, Keane, Riise, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Pennant, Henchoz etc -

The real question should be WHY do both Alonso and Mascherano want to leave a prestigious club like Liverpool?

The answer is Benitez.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No - that is not the case at all.  More regurgitating myths which originate on anti-owner LFC sites. 

Benitez was given all the money from the Alonso sale, the bulk of which was used to pay for new contracts for Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Benayoun etc, not to mention Benitez's new contract.  Gillett confirmed this in his interview with SOS (why would he lie when club accounts could prove him to be a liar?!)  This has also been confirmed by my source at the club who has access to Liverpool's financial accounts.

If the money DID go towards payiong off loans, where is you proof of this?

Rafa Benitez said...

I am Rafa, i have seen the details, i cannot prove because i cannot let contract details loose, just take my word for it

Rafa Benitez said...

JK says 'Ferguson is a good judge of players, plus he is not stupid enough to waste 30m on defensive midfielder, probably because he knows he can get a player like Fletcher doing the same job at a fraction of the price.'

Okay he may not have been def mid but didnt he waste a shed load on Veron(30m)???? when they had scholes playing the same role numpty

can you see the relevance now???

Jim said...

I was always a huge fan of his in the past but I am starting to find myself agreeing with you (1st time for everything :) ) I would push Barca for £25 million + YayaToure and then plow the money into another big name striker, David Villa anyone?? If Barca want him so bad, we shoul dpush the price up and not sell him for a peeny less than we want him to. I so wish we had bough t Palacios when he left Wigan, he offers everythin Masch can do plus more dynamism going forward, more power in the air and is all in all a more rounded player!!

KBill76 said...

you're quick to say "you just don't get it" at others when it seems to me that it's you that just doesn't get it.. why should Liverpool sell an integral member of our first team for what would, at best, amount to £12m profit? 
You argue that ManUre survive without a DM but WTF was Hargreaves signed for if not to be their DM? An £18m Defensive Midfielder who offers nothing more, if as much, as Masch going forward.. ok so he's been injured and shock horror ManUtd has struggled in the middle of the park all season. Anderson, Fletcher & Carrick are hardly attacking dynamo's either are they.. they're all predominately defensive midfielders.. none of which are as good as the man we have already.. and who you want to sell!? 

Rafa Benitez said...

Crouch wanted more games
Keane was deemed not good enough and decided to cash in to get claw back the initial investment
Riise had a shocking final season was time to move on
Agger - i dont know how you think benitez has alienated coz hes been injured most of the time for last 2 seasons
Alonso had a bad season tried to sell him on, then had best season - wanted a new challenge
Pennant was shite
Henchoz slept with hyypias wife
Masch's wife apparently hasnt settled in england or he wants play with messi his little bumboy

Jaimie Kanwar said...

No, because there is no relevance. This is not about how much money Ferguson has spent on players X, Y and Z - it is about United winning three league titles and CL in three years WITHOUT a top class DM.

Whereas Chelsea and Liverpool, who do play with top class DM's have won nothing for three years?

United's achievements make a mockery of the ridiculous assertion that top teams NEED a world class DM.

Guest said...

This is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever read. Mascherano is as integral to Liverpool as Essien is to Chelsea and Makelele was to Chelsea. As much as it is an attractive offer to accept 30 million pounds it would be another step in the wrong direction. Mascherano allows the likes of Gerrard and formerly Alonso to play their game. Stating his lack of goals is completely counter effective and if you are going to do that kind of thing you might as well sell Pepe Reina because he doesn't contribute enough goals.

Completely ridiculous article from someone who appears to clearly lack any kind of footballing knowledge.

Jerry said...

Dont agree with that silly bugger, we are not playing footy manager now either

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Liverpool should sell because he doesn't want to be here! That's the point.  Don't keep an unhappy player and capitalise by getting as much money as possible.

Man U signed Hargreaves but the comparison is not relevant because he has not played for ages.  United won three titles and CL without an alleged top class DM.

Anderson, Fletcher and Carrick may not be as good as Masch as DMs but thst's the point - you don't NEED a world class DM - you need players who cna get the job done and compliment each other.

United three league titles/CL is proof that they have the right blend.

United may have 'struggled' in midfield this season (debatable), but who is higher in the table, us or them?

Roxy said...

The reason why Alonso and Mascherano came to liverpool? Benitez!!! The reason they turned into world class players? Benitez!!! The reason they wanna leave is top spanish speaking players want to play for top spanish teams. If i was spanish why would i wanna play somewhere freezing cold, soaking wet. higher tax, miserable missus, foreign country. Cmon who wouldn't want to play with messi and co?

Jerry said...

Jaimie Kenwar once a manc never a red!!!!! wahey

Guest said...

Defensively Your team would crumble withought him, the only reason Liverpool play with 2 DMF is becaase you dont have a world class defence or world class defenders.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Guest - your post which began 'this is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever read' (and continued in that vein) has been deleted.  Read the comment policy (link to the left).

If you can state your argument without resorting to insults then please reposts.  If you're unable to debate like an adult then your posts will continue to be deleted.

Guest said...

As a Chelsea fan i always get happy when rivals talk about how DM are replacable, a certain perez made that mistake with makalelle.
the ronaldos quote sums it all up. "why put another layer of gold paint on the rolls royce when you just sold the engine" talking about signing beckham over makallele.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Glad we cleared all that up.

Roxy said...

The reason why Alonso and Mascherano came to liverpool? Benitez!!! The reason they turned into world class players? Benitez!!! The reason they wanna leave is top spanish speaking players want to play for top spanish teams. If i was spanish why would i wanna play somewhere freezing cold, soaking wet. higher tax, miserable missus, foreign country. Cmon who wouldn't want to play with messi and co?

Guest said...

Agger? Where has he been alienated by Benitez? As far as I can tell he's been treated well - don' forget he's abit injury-prone.

Agree with the most of the other points of the article though. I actually think Liverpool look a better team with Gerrard and Lucas in C-Mid, more recent results seem to show this.

I still have a soft spot for Masch though, if only for his reaction to his only goal for the club and when we beat Portsmouth in the last minute at fratton last season!

Another interesting point about DMs though - look what happended to Real Madrid when they got shot of Makelele, admitedly they did have a top-heavy attacking team.

YNWA

Rafa Benitez said...

 Okay Barcelona who won all they could win last season play with a def mid, and to say Carrick Heargreaves arnt def midfielders is a load of shite, combined cost of 36 m. They have both played the holding role for England. Also to compare Fletcher to Mascharano - you should be ashamed of yourself an 18 named Ramsey ran him all over the park on saturday.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You seem to have a serious inability to comprehend  written words accurately.  I never said Carrick and Hargreaves are not DMs.  Carrick is not a DM on the level of Mascherano, but he has more to his game.  And this lack of having a world class DM has not affected Man U in the slightest.

Steven said...

How typically pathetic Jamie. How do you know when you are really clutching at straws to win an arguement? When you resort to using Jermaine "JD swigging" Pennant as an example of how Rafa alienates players. Rafa sold Riise because he couldn't use his right foot - refer to chelsea CL game where he tried to use his left and scored an OG. Peter Crouch wanted first team football. Alonso wanted a change after 5 years in England. Henchoz was a waster by the time rafa arrived, he couldn't even get a game for celtic for christs sake! Keane? Rafa said he couldn't understand why he kept dropping so deep all the time. He couldn't follow simple instructions - look how well he is doing now Jamie! Agger??!! I won't even dignify that pure lie with a response.

So i'll ask you what  you seem to ask everyone else Jamie - WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE? COME ON BACK IT UP WITH SOMETHING!

Every article you write Jamie has a sly dig at Rafa -  without any real facts to back it up.

Guest said...

Jaimie I think your point about Chelsea and Liverpool winning nothing is a bit thin. Chelsea were without Essien for a huge part of their season last year and he is a massive loss for them as Mascherano would be for us.

I'd also point out Chelsea would have won the CL if not for Terry's penalty so it's a bit unfair to try and prove your point about us not needing Mascherano by citing a lack of success as a reason.

"As I mentioned above - Man United do not have DM comparable to mascherano.  Do they suffer?  No.  They've won the league 3 years in a row and CL with Darren Fletcher in that role!"

I'd also add that Chelsea have suffered since they lost Makelele, arguably the best DM in the EPL and Europe ergo the World when he was at SB.

Say what you like about Mascherano and his loyalties, yes he may want to leave but Ronaldo wanted to leave United, did it make him a poorer player? You've said United have had success in the EPL DESPITE not having a DM, well you're wrong, Fletcher plays the DM role and he's been very competent in recent seasons. I'd also add having the Worlds best Player in your side regularly scoring 30+ goals a season helps your cause somewhat! Lets see if they win the League without Ronaldo before judging the impact of a DM on their side!

There are much more factors to consider than you've eluded to when talking about the impact of a DM on a team, if you have a World Class anchor in your midfield it gives other players the confidence to try and be more creative and to get forward more (Lampard at Chelsea playing with Makelele or lately Essien).

Have you ever played football at any level? If I'm a CM and I know I've got a top quality DM partnering me it gives me the added confidence to try different things, be a little more creative, maybe attempt a pass or run that I'd think twice about if I didn't have my midfield partner backing me up.

Look at Chelsea without Essien last season, or the season prior to that, Lampard when playing without him looked more subdued, probably fully aware that Mikel is nowhere near Essien's standard. It made him more wary of bombing on leaving Mikel as cover, and to back me up you can check his goals/assists ratios for the games with Mikel and the games with Essien/Makelele - they will back me up.

Perhaps Mascherano does want to go but don't doubt for a second the impact it will have on our team, we WILL be worse off without him.

Guest said...

Jaimie I think your point about Chelsea and Liverpool winning nothing is a bit thin. Chelsea were without Essien for a huge part of their season last year and he is a massive loss for them as Mascherano would be for us.

I'd also point out Chelsea would have won the CL if not for Terry's penalty so it's a bit unfair to try and prove your point about us not needing Mascherano by citing a lack of success as a reason.

"As I mentioned above - Man United do not have DM comparable to mascherano.  Do they suffer?  No.  They've won the league 3 years in a row and CL with Darren Fletcher in that role!"

I'd also add that Chelsea have suffered since they lost Makelele, arguably the best DM in the EPL and Europe ergo the World when he was at SB.

Say what you like about Mascherano and his loyalties, yes he may want to leave but Ronaldo wanted to leave United, did it make him a poorer player? You've said United have had success in the EPL DESPITE not having a DM, well you're wrong, Fletcher plays the DM role and he's been very competent in recent seasons. I'd also add having the Worlds best Player in your side regularly scoring 30+ goals a season helps your cause somewhat! Lets see if they win the League without Ronaldo before judging the impact of a DM on their side!

There are much more factors to consider than you've eluded to when talking about the impact of a DM on a team, if you have a World Class anchor in your midfield it gives other players the confidence to try and be more creative and to get forward more (Lampard at Chelsea playing with Makelele or lately Essien).

Have you ever played football at any level? If I'm a CM and I know I've got a top quality DM partnering me it gives me the added confidence to try different things, be a little more creative, maybe attempt a pass or run that I'd think twice about if I didn't have my midfield partner backing me up.

Look at Chelsea without Essien last season, or the season prior to that, Lampard when playing without him looked more subdued, probably fully aware that Mikel is nowhere near Essien's standard. It made him more wary of bombing on leaving Mikel as cover, and to back me up you can check his goals/assists ratios for the games with Mikel and the games with Essien/Makelele - they will back me up.

Perhaps Mascherano does want to go but don't doubt for a second the impact it will have on our team, we WILL be worse off without him.

Guest said...

Jaimie I think your point about Chelsea and Liverpool winning nothing is a bit thin. Chelsea were without Essien for a huge part of their season last year and he is a massive loss for them as Mascherano would be for us.

I'd also point out Chelsea would have won the CL if not for Terry's penalty so it's a bit unfair to try and prove your point about us not needing Mascherano by citing a lack of success as a reason.

"As I mentioned above - Man United do not have DM comparable to mascherano.  Do they suffer?  No.  They've won the league 3 years in a row and CL with Darren Fletcher in that role!"

I'd also add that Chelsea have suffered since they lost Makelele, arguably the best DM in the EPL and Europe ergo the World when he was at SB.

Say what you like about Mascherano and his loyalties, yes he may want to leave but Ronaldo wanted to leave United, did it make him a poorer player? You've said United have had success in the EPL DESPITE not having a DM, well you're wrong, Fletcher plays the DM role and he's been very competent in recent seasons. I'd also add having the Worlds best Player in your side regularly scoring 30+ goals a season helps your cause somewhat! Lets see if they win the League without Ronaldo before judging the impact of a DM on their side!

There are much more factors to consider than you've eluded to when talking about the impact of a DM on a team, if you have a World Class anchor in your midfield it gives other players the confidence to try and be more creative and to get forward more (Lampard at Chelsea playing with Makelele or lately Essien).

Have you ever played football at any level? If I'm a CM and I know I've got a top quality DM partnering me it gives me the added confidence to try different things, be a little more creative, maybe attempt a pass or run that I'd think twice about if I didn't have my midfield partner backing me up.

Look at Chelsea without Essien last season, or the season prior to that, Lampard when playing without him looked more subdued, probably fully aware that Mikel is nowhere near Essien's standard. It made him more wary of bombing on leaving Mikel as cover, and to back me up you can check his goals/assists ratios for the games with Mikel and the games with Essien/Makelele - they will back me up.

Perhaps Mascherano does want to go but don't doubt for a second the impact it will have on our team, we WILL be worse off without him.

Ronan the barbarian said...

Jaimie kenwar is a kiddy fiddler

Ronan the barbarian said...

Quite Right Quite Right

Guest said...

Agree completely.

Tal141 said...

A leader?  I seriously doubt that.  I think this article is 100% spot on.  It wasn'[t Masch that allowed Alonso to play, it was Alonso that hid his now very apparent flaws - such as passing.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same player here?  A good passer of the ball??

Chris Severs said...

I think that Mascherano is a brilliant player. Although I think that in the summer if Barcelona still want to offer £30million + for him then Rafa should sell, and I think he will.

If Mascherano's wife anad family can't settle or live here long term legally as is reported, then I don't blame the man one bit. He does give his all on the pitch and he has stated before how he his grateful to Rafa and Liverpool. However, in the Spanish speaking world a team like Barcelona are probably the biggest team in the world.

What he brings to the team though is evident in the recent game against Man United. Liverpool dominated the midfield against United thanks to Lucas' and Mascherano's constant pressing. Not many midfielders can keep up that amount of workrate for 90 minutes. But that positive is also the negative.

Tactics are all important and explain the draws, against opposition where you want to squeeze the game, then players like Mascherano are important. But Liverpool have stepped up on the world stage in the last 5 years and we often find ourselves as favourites and teams coming and sitting back against us. For this kind of game Mascherano does not compliment the perogative.

I do believe though that if Aquilani can gain full fitness he may compliment Mascherano's  game, for the rest of the season at least.

In my opinion Mascherano is good enough for Liverpool, but he is replaceable. It's impossible to have a team of 11 world class stars, it just doesn't happen. You need the drive from the middle and Mascherano brings that. His form slumped at the beginning of the season but everyones did, only Torres produced regularly. Gerrard's form is more erratic than most and has been for a while.

I think Jaimie makes a good point though in Lassana Diarra, he his a very good player and would be the man I would want to replace Mascherano should he leave. Cattermole is an excellent player also, but he may be overpriced. If Liverpool sold Mascherano I doubt if Rafa would get even half the money to spend again.

Sowellred said...

So if Mascherano comes out and says he is happy at Liverpool will you then think we should keep him?

sal said...

very good point!

Mike1978 said...

Jamie, why do you take any feedback that isn't positive as some scathing personal attack?

I am a very fond admirer of many parts of your journalism and have been over the last 6 months or so. However, idiots aside, the way you reply to some comments made to your articles is not only autocratic, but you fail to do what all good journalists are compelled to do - hear both sides of the argument and give a balanced opinion.

This aside, not only do i agree with the article, i like the analysis you put into it.

Guest said...

You can't just say it is a lie. Man you are like some sort of football fascist if it aint your opinion you make stupid statments like this. The actual post made no claim of validity just opened up the posibility. It does not make it a lie.

punjabe said...

jamie your a numpty ....i told you you ...u need to get out more

Guest said...

Sell Mascherano & let Lucas play as lone DM, the money should be there to finance the new stadium

Gäst said...

Mahmadou Diarra  , must be a bargin deal these days , it seems everyboady has forgotten him, but an exellent player  or why not steven defour will be a player for the future...

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Hi Mike - thanks for your comments.  I have to disagree though.  Autocratic?  I may be forthright in my views, but so is everyone else!  Are they autocratic too?

There is no balance in football - everyone has their core views and opinions, and more often than not, they stick to them.  I'm under no obligation to give a balanced view - that's for the BBC and Press Association.  I am a fan with a very specific view on LFC, just like everyone else who posts here.

I like the cut and thrust of debate, and if it gets heated, then all the better, as long as we don't resort to personal insults.

And believe me, i don't take anything personally.  I get slagged off hundreds of times a day -  there are people across the net and on twittermaking stuff up about me, but  it goes with the territory.  let them get on with it.  Makes no difference to me.

Anyway, I'll take your points on board. Cheers.  JK

Mike1978 said...

You say about other people's replies being autocratic too, but you're completely missing the point. You're the journalist here.

Guest said...

Jamie didn't you publish an identical article a few months back??  Surely you can do better than re posting an old post!  Yes the issue remains I guess so it's still relavent. 

However i'd of hoped you could answer who'd you bring in to replace him if he went in Januray baring in mind that rarely do clubs do good business in the January window (Arshavin a recent case of a good buy in January) - and at what price - again baring in mind that any club we approach will know we're 30+ million better off.  That equal inflated prices.

Have you considered this?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

I posted a similar article a few months ago, but as you say, the issue is still very much on the agenda. 

Liverpool would survive with a Lucas-Aquilani partnership; it could alternate: Lucas-Aquilani with Gerrard playing behind Torres, and sometimes Lucas-Gerrard, with Aquilani playing behind Torres.

In my view, a new DM is not even needed in January.  Sell masche for 30m and buy a quality winger/second striker, and then in the summer, buy a DM and a top class central defender.

mark said...

man utd have had a better team and squad over the past 3 seasons,hence winning the league. having a 'world class' player in any position isn't the be all and end all, but replacing mascherano will a less talented player is a backwards move, whichever way you slice it up.
say liverpool get rid of him in january, who would you - realistically - get in to replace him? considering that i doubt rafa would get more that half of any fee to to replace him.
cattermole and cana are not anywhere near as good as mascherano,(although i think cattermole will grow in stature over the next few years) why does it make sense to replace him with those players?

mark said...

i think mascherano easily fits into the abstract term of world class.

m15hun said...

The points in this article are poorly conceived and without weight:

1 - Since the Barca debacle in the Summer he has come out in support of his Manager and spoken of his desire to focus and win trophies with Liverpool.

2 - A world class side needs a world class DM and Mascherano is the best in his position. We'll never be the side we were if we sell our best players. So what if his price 'goes down'!? We don't want to sell him!

3 - He is the very cornerstone of creativity. Without him breaking up the oppositions attacks and returning the ball to our creative players there IS no creativity. Do you know anything about the game, Jamie?!

4 - He isn't a playmaker. He wins the ball, passes it sensibly to another player to attack and build with. It's the job of a Defensive Midfielder and he does it perfectly on his day.

5 - The person above me who used the quote about Makelele summed this nonsense up perfectly, refer to his quote.

6 - All players make errors. His have been far less costly than Carragher/Agger/Skrtel/Kyrgiakos's. Should we sell them too?

7 - Of course it's a coincidence! Are you for real?! One player, who breaks up play better than anyone in the world, has caused us to start drawing?! Nonsense. It's because of our lack of attacking options. If you were a fan (of football AND Liverpool FC you'd understand this).

8 - Benitez rotates. Mascherano IS integral and when he's on form is the difference between victory and defeat. Goodness me! How many games have you actually watched!?

9 - Your transparent misuse of statistics have shown this point to be a total nonsense. You refer to the 'thrashing' of a languishing Hull side with serious problems as a plus for selling the best DM in the world. You clearly don't get football.

10 - Again, totally useless statistics as it takes 11 men to win a game. Not one.

11 - Of course it's a priority. We have problems in Defence and Attack and with injuries, on the wing too. Defensive Midfield is the only position in which we are competing, as Lucas and Mascha showed against United.

12 - Blame the Defenders for the Defensive record. Once again, you're blaming one man for the mistakes of 5 Defenders. Have you no idea?!

13 - Business be buggered. Our club (evidently not yours) is being ravaged by decisions being made 'for business purposes' and not 'football purposes'! There is NO player in the world who is better in DM. He is nigh-on irreplaceable!

Guest said...

should liverpool sell jm, yes, and the only reason is he wants to go. He probably thinks getting a better understanding with messi will be good for argentina. the end of the day he is but one player, we gambled when no one would touch him and its paid off, we will almost double what we paid for him, great business. we could buy back momo sosoko, his passing might have improved and he would be less than half the cash we will get and he is just as good at breaking up the play as jm, it as his distribution that let him down.

mark said...

rafa wouldnt get 30 million to spend, so selling him wouldn't really change anything, apart from the quality of the squad dropping and turning liverpool into a selling club.

mark said...

i know, why would gillett lie?!! always tells the truth that fella!
does those players wage rises equate to alonso's sale fee? and didn't rafa get a new contract before alonso went?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You made some great points.

I've edited out all the 'you're not a fan' crap - stick to stating your case.  if you post further stuff that includes sniping in every second sentence your posts will just be deleted.

Guest said...

If Mascherano is going to Barca it means that they'll probably be selling Toure or Keita of which I'd take either. Whatever happens we just need to secure the best deal for Liverpool, if that's £20-£25m plus Keita or Toure, great. If it's the rumoured £36m, great.

We don't need to sell so lets get as much as we can as we did with Alonso, if they want him they'll have to pay handsomely to get him.

m15hun said...

Jamie: People are entitled to their opinion. You shouldn't delete or censor for any other reason than abuse. What I added to my post wasn't abusive, it was comment tinged with frustration that a fan of the club can be so short-sighted.

Liverpool Football Club aren't just any other side. Our fans are world renknown for being loyal, thoughtful and patient. You seem to exhibit the opposite of those traits on a fairly regular basis and I guess that, as a 25 year fan of the club, it galls me that people can miss the point so much.

I enjoy your opposing views and on occasion have agreed with them but I don't agree with your fascistic approach to criticism. It does you a disservice.

Guest said...

The only reason to keep Mascherano is that we got lucky in getting in him in the first place(due to Pardew being a moron) and our manager as we have seen is likely to struggle to replace him with anyone better given his scouting and recruitment record.

Truth is 30M would be great business and Barca can afford to spend that on a DM as they produce quality like Mess, Iniesta, Xavi from their youth system and Benitez produces absolutely nothing from ours. Anyway Lucas should be ready to step into that role if he's as good as Benitez tells us.

Guest said...

Definitely take Keita or Toure plus cash in a swap. I think we'd do ok out of that like Inter aren't complaining about swapping Eto'o for Zlatan plus cash. Just because Barca is a great team doesn't mean they get all their deals right. They signed Hleb after all for 17M!!!

We can do well out this deal especially as we lucked out getting Mascherano in the first place. The little traitor only played his best when he wanted a permanent deal. The sooner he goes the better.

Guest said...

I don't agree with jamie on the points why we should sell JM, but if the player wants to go, its best to let him go and get as much as we can. If reports are correct and he does not want a new and improved contract then he has made his mind up.

a midfield with gerrard and lucas with aquilanie behind torres will be just as good as the set up we have now. we must not forget that we are LIVERPOOL no one player makes the club, and no player is indispensable. Very few players who have left the club have gone on to better things, jm should be aware of that.

Guest said...

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/10-reasons-why-liverpool-fc-do-not-need.html

did we need another copy n paste?

are you now going back on what you wrote here:

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009/10/revealed-two-surprising-new-facts-about.html

Guest said...

Some very dubious assertions there.

1. What do you expect him to say? I'm not committed to the club or to winning trophies? Standard player spin that many other unsettled players trot out(usually after their agents tell them to)

2. Rubbish. Best in his position? Essien? De Rossi? He's a decent DM and is currently playing well below his best. That is unlikely to change while he wants to leave.

3. Rubbish. He's a defensive player who needs creative players around him to effect anything offensive. Big difference.

4. Correct, but he's not doing it perfectly now and hasn't been for a while. Do you watch our games or just believe myths? He's been poor for a while now.

5. Makelele was better than Mascherano. Stop comparing him to Masch. Just because Madrid didn't replace Makelele doesn't mean we can't replace Masch. Their policy at the time was to sign superstars like Beckham. Ours isn't.

6. Yes if they want to leave and we get very good offers for them and can replace them with better.

7. True. But doesn't affect the sale of Mascherano.

8. Probably more than you if you think he's been playing perfectly. He's been very poor recently.

9. Again he is NOT the best DM in the world. If there is one it's not him.

10. Well spotted.

11. And what of the other games Lucas and Masch played when we lost..the one win in 9? Why pick the one win rather than the others when Mascherano was abysmal. And he was sent off like an idiot in that game v United(not for the first time either)

12. Blame the team i'm sure the "defensive" midfielder has some part in defending..the clue is in the words. I bet Benitez thinks Mascherano has a defensive role...

13. Absolute rubbish. There are at least a dozen comparable DM's and he is replaceable. Torres or Gerrard would be far harder to replace.

Guest said...

shit article....since when is 3 draws and 3 wins a good record for a team supposed to be challenging for the title? Though I agree, sell him, put the £30 odd million to better use.

Guest said...

oh the ficklety of dippers

Guest said...

<p><span><span>I’m starting to believe this website is a propaganda tool for our American owners to advocate the striping of the clubs assets.</span></span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span><span>Whether mash is the best DM in the world is a matter of opinion, but it is one that is held by a large part of the<span> footballing</span><span> </span>world, the fact that the best football team in the world is willing to pay 36m for him should suggest that this is someone we should want to keep hold of.</span></span></p>

Jaimie Kanwar said...

The second article simply highlights something positive about Mascherano - it has nothing to do with what I'm arguing here.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

M15hun - just because I don't fit into your insular, inflexible view of a what constitutes a fan doesn't mean I'm a lesser fan than you.  The points I make are valid whether you like it or not.  Problem is, I don't conform to the group view on things therefore I'm denigrated...which suits me fine!  Criticism is necessary.

And re comments - people can post whatever they want but if they start sniping/slagging off me, the site or other posters, their posts will be deleted. I know that people appreciate the fact that they can come here and discuss LFC without loads of ignorant idiots disrupting things with their pathetic sniping.

That's the way it is and that's the way it's going to stay, and if you or anyone else doesn't like it then that's just tough luck.  There are plenyu of LFC forums on the net that welcome slanging matches - this site is for civil debate only.

Callum said...

As a United fan, I can tell you that we do have a top-class defensive midfielder (other than Hargreaves) - Darren Fletcher. OK, so he's not a defensive midfielder, but he does the same job brilliantly, and contributes more going forward too. It is an important position though - our terrible record against top clubs without him is no secret.

m15hun said...

Jamie - Slagging off is one thing, criticism is another altogether. You seem unwilling or unable to differentiate between the two though.

Let's not forget the obvious point in this whole mess of debate though:

Barca have not agreed terms with Mascherano as they are not in a position, financially, to do so. They initiated contact in the summer, were turned down flat and moved on.

All the tabloid conjecture is just that.

Guest said...

Madrid won nothing after they sold their world class DM (Makelele) and only start winning trophy after they replace him with another world class DM(Mahamadou Diarra)three years later so er.....DM is easily replace?

Jaimie Kanwar said...

All criticism that stays on the site - when the criticism is interlaced with sniping/derogatory comments, that's a different story.  People have to be forced to debate properly sometimes, and if people  want their comments to stay on this site then they should stick to debating the issues and drop the other sniping crap.

Part of the reason I don't post on any other message-boards is I can't be bothered to wade through the crap and slanging matches to get to the crux of the argument.  That doesn't happen here.

Re Barca - I never said they'd agreed terms with Masch - that is what the press are reporting.  What is fact though is that Masch wanted to leave for Barcelona and was disappointed to stay.

There's no smoke without fire - this is just like every other situation where rumours surfaced about a player leaving - the same happened with Alonso last year; rumours about Juventus and Mdrid being interested etc.  Masch is on his way out, and I'm merely advancing arguments why Liverpool will not wither and die if he leaves.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Exactly - let me ask you: do you see Fletcher as world class?  I would guess that you would say there are several other players ahea of Fletcher in terms of pure ability.  However, he does a fantastic job in the DM position, which proves that you don't need to have a world class DM in that position to get the job done.

Lucas could be our Fletcher - We don't need Mascherano.

m15hun said...

Rumour has it that it's his family that are unhappy in the country. If that is indeed the case a move may be inevitable. I've had the conversation with a few people and the answer's been the same: who would we replace him with, if he goes?

Would Barca be willing to offer Yaya in part-ex? Even with his undeniable pedigree, I don't think he's as good a player as Mascherano!

Bob said...

Reason 14 to help pay off th G&H debt!!! no profit from the sale would be used to strenghen the squad

Jaimie Kanwar said...

How do you know?  That's just another regurgitated cliche.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

There are plenty of players who could replace Mascherano.  The idea that we MUST have a world class DM is nonsense. UNited have Fletcher - is he world class?  No.  He does the job of a DM fantastically well, and United have won three titles and CL in the last 3 years WITHOUT a world class DM.

We just need someone who does the job effectively.  Our world class players should be attackers and defenders, not DM's.  That should not be the most important position in the team.

The following players could replace Masch and do a good job: Lassana Diarra, Lee Cattermole, Daniele Di Rossi, Steven Defour, Yaya Toure, Lucas - yes, Lucas.  If Masch goes in january, Lucas can do his job.  Opta stats prove this season that he is performing better than Masch defensively, including tackles won.

A CM partnership of Lucas-Aquilani would be fine - it could alternate: Lucas-Aquilani with Gerrard behind Torres, and sometimes it could be Lucas-Gerrard, with Aquilani behind Torres.

Then, in the Summer, another (cheaper) DM could be bought.

I find it so ridiculous how some fans have amentl block when it comes to certain players.  According to fans, Kuyt, Aurelio and Masch are irreplaceable and the best possible options in their respective positions.  When did people become so accepting of mediocrity.

In Masch's case, I can understand why fans love him, but Liverpool will not wither and die if he leaves!

neil said...

We should try to keep hold of our best players until it becomes impossible, this then insures that we have a strong squad.
If it does become impossible (for eg turns down contract and runs his contract down to less than 2 years) we have to sell at the highest possible price. We should not have to sell to make money available for  transfers this eventually will weaken us.
If we could buy and  then sell fringe players, this would improve our squad
and players like Mascherano would not want to leave.

SounessDalglishGoal said...

You really know how to stimulate debate - hats off to you. There are some articles that you have written that have made me question your motives and loyalty and made me want to throw my PC around...but I actually think you have a good point here.

Masch's head has been turned (to be fair Barca is one of the few clubs that would do this to any player from South America) and whilst he may not have publically stated he wants to leave - the fact that everyone else has including Benitez has acknowledged it essentially means it is true.

Even though we 'rescued' his career loyalty has long since gone and we all need to accept the fact that all players aren't like Carragher. If we get what is rumoured and can line up an adequate (doesn't have to be a world beater) replacement then why not?

Don't get me wrong he is one of the best in his position and I would be sorry to see him go (some good and some bad times) but if the relationship has soured then lets move on - disruptive elements within a team are not helpful - no matter what anyone says - it does affect the team - and we can do without it at the moment

Bob said...

So is we do not nee a world class DM

Bob said...

And G & H need the cash fast for RBS wachovia deal that is the only deal they have there eyes on not deals to bring in top class players

Guest said...

JAIMIE:

"And re comments - people can post whatever they want but if they start sniping/slagging off me, the site or other posters, their posts will be deleted."

So why do you allow idiotic Mancs (normally) to come on a Liverpool site and call us "dippers" and other such insults without deleting their comments? Is that not sniping, or is it ok for them to mock us because you're not a scouser?

And as for the "criticism is necessary" comment, analysis is necessary, criticism is easy.

Bikram said...

Jaimie, I'm not so sure I lean either way. A part of me thinks we should sell him off if we get 35+, and play my favourite player, Lucas, with Aquilani in the centre, and get another defensive mid as back-up. However, another part of me wants to see how he goes on this season. I know he's started poorly, but he's been getting better, and he's been really good the last 2 or 3 games. I'm on the fence for this one, but I like your analysis. 

As for the first point, about Rafa alienating players, how many players has AF alienated? You use every opportunity to bash Rafa. Also, why is it always Argentinian players who cause problems - Man U fans will remember Heinze, and then Tevez (who's now piping up at City about going to Boca), now Masch wants to go to Barca. Hopefully Insua won't go down the same route. I don't know about January, but I think Masch is definitely off in the summer. You can't keep a player who wants to leave for too long. 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

All derogatory posts are deleted eventually, including those from Mancs.  I can't be online 24/7 to tidy stuff up.  90% of dodgy posts are automatically deleted by the software. Point out some posts by mancs you think should be deleted and I'lll get rid of them

And no, I am not a Scouser - I was not born in Liverpool. Big deal - does that make me not a fan.  98% of Liverpool fans do not hail from or live-in Liverpool.

Bikram said...

I'm on the fence on this issue. A part of me thinks if we get 35+ mil for Masch, we should sell him, and get another defensive mid, and start with Lucas and Aqua as the central midfield combo. Another part, however, feels, that he will get better as the season goes on, and he has already been really good the last few games despite a poor start to the season. Good analysis, though. I think Masch will leave at the end of the season, you can't keep a player who wants to leave for too long.

But why do you use every opportunity to bash Rafa? Haven't you noticed how Argentinians always give problems in terms of loyalty - Heinze and Tevez for Man U (and now Tevez is piping up at City about going to Boca), now Masch. Rafa picked him out of obscurity at West Ham, and he's gone on to become, in the opinion of many, the best defensive midfielder in the world. As for Crouch, Keane, and the rest, I already told you what I feel yesterday. 

Guest said...

"<span>One question to consider: If having an allegedly 'world class defensive midfielder' is so important, how is it Man United have won three league titles and a CL trophy in three years without one?!"</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
<span>Well...</span>
<span></span>
<span>There are a few reasons...</span>
<span></span>
<span>Ferdinand £30m, Rooney £28m, Carrick £20m, Anderson £18m, Nani £17m, Berbatov £32m, Hargreaves £19m...not to mention they had the greatest player in the World playing for them - Ronaldo.</span>
<span></span>
<span>It's not hard to see how they managed to win 3 consecutive League Titles when you consider the quality and cost of their squad, without Ronaldo they've struggled to reach the same standard they've displayed in previous seasons so far. I hardly think the lack of a World Class DM has any impact whatsoever, in fact it would have only served to make them stronger!</span>

Guest said...

"<span>One question to consider: If having an allegedly 'world class defensive midfielder' is so important, how is it Man United have won three league titles and a CL trophy in three years without one?!"</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
<span>Well...</span>
<span></span>
<span>There are a few reasons...</span>
<span></span>
<span>Ferdinand £30m, Rooney £28m, Carrick £20m, Anderson £18m, Nani £17m, Berbatov £32m, Hargreaves £19m...not to mention they had the greatest player in the World playing for them - Ronaldo.</span>
<span></span>
<span>It's not hard to see how they managed to win 3 consecutive League Titles when you consider the quality and cost of their squad, without Ronaldo they've struggled to reach the same standard they've displayed in previous seasons so far. I hardly think the lack of a World Class DM has any impact whatsoever, in fact it would have only served to make them stronger!</span>

Guest said...

"<span>One question to consider: If having an allegedly 'world class defensive midfielder' is so important, how is it Man United have won three league titles and a CL trophy in three years without one?!"</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
<span>Well...</span>
<span></span>
<span>There are a few reasons...</span>
<span></span>
<span>Ferdinand £30m, Rooney £28m, Carrick £20m, Anderson £18m, Nani £17m, Berbatov £32m, Hargreaves £19m...not to mention they had the greatest player in the World playing for them - Ronaldo.</span>
<span></span>
<span>It's not hard to see how they managed to win 3 consecutive League Titles when you consider the quality and cost of their squad, without Ronaldo they've struggled to reach the same standard they've displayed in previous seasons so far. I hardly think the lack of a World Class DM has any impact whatsoever, in fact it would have only served to make them stronger!</span>

Guest said...

"<span>One question to consider: If having an allegedly 'world class defensive midfielder' is so important, how is it Man United have won three league titles and a CL trophy in three years without one?!"</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
<span>Well...</span>
<span></span>
<span>There are a few reasons...</span>
<span></span>
<span>Ferdinand £30m, Rooney £28m, Carrick £20m, Anderson £18m, Nani £17m, Berbatov £32m, Hargreaves £19m...not to mention they had the greatest player in the World playing for them - Ronaldo.</span>
<span></span>
<span>It's not hard to see how they managed to win 3 consecutive League Titles when you consider the quality and cost of their squad, without Ronaldo they've struggled to reach the same standard they've displayed in previous seasons so far. I hardly think the lack of a World Class DM has any impact whatsoever, in fact it would have only served to make them stronger!</span>

thisisanfield said...

Fantastic read....if we were offered £30mill we should snatch Barca or anyone else for that matter arm off...if what is being written in the press is true he doesn't want to be here so get rid while we can make the most money for him!

thisisanfield said...

Fantasti read...if anyone offers us £30mill plus for him we should snatch their hands off....if the press is to be believed (hmmmmm) he doesn't want to be here anyway so time to get rid and make the most amount of money we can for him

Guest said...

You are full of shit Kanwar!

m15hun said...

Of course we need a world class DM! Fletcher's the Captain of Scotland! Which, as poor as they've been doing lately, makes him a world class player!

You can't have a side that can succeed in Europe and domestic competitions without world class in all positions. That's a fact.

Lucas has come on leaps and bounds but we can't have one Defensive Midfielder in a side. If you want to compete you need to have 22 world class players, from the back to the front. All the players you mention as possible replacements are internationals. Making them world class!

You're advocating the sale of the Captain of Argentina, the best Defensive Midfielder in the business because 'We don't need a world class DM'?! That's ridiculous.

The only way we can let him go is if we have someone of equal or higher value coming in to fill his boots and that is not going to be an easy or fruitful search.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Here's hoping you're being ironic ;)

m15hun said...

I'm not following you..

Seriously, as bad as some of the Countries of those players have been doing of late, they're international level players. They play on the world stage, making them world class.

Personally, if I had to part with Mascherano it would only be for Yaya (plus cash from Barca) or Cattermole - and only the latter because of the impending F.A. ruling about domestic players (although the lad is a very good player).

Without being flippant tell me who you see as a BETTER defensive midfielder in the game today?

De Rossi is excellent but we aren't going to be able to take Roma's Captain as well as their young talent (Aquilani). Defour isn't a patch of Mascha. Yaya offers more attacking threat and is a good tackler, but he isn't BETTER, neither is Cattermole..

Jaimie Kanwar said...

You're joking, right?  Playing for your country = World class?  Since when?  I guess that makes EMile Heskey world class too, in the same bracket as Zidane and Pele.

You can't be serious, because no one could be that deluded ;)

fraggs said...

Sounds like another example of "I don't have the technical knowledge or understanding of the game to see what this player brings to the team, we should just sell him". Like Kuyt, Mascherano is in Rafa's top five in terms of most valuable players. Just because you can't fathom the logic behind this doesn't mean there isn't any there. 
What Mascherano provides is an outstanding sense of positional play. He is there to break up opposition attacks, intercept their passes, make tackles and turn over possession. He then delivers the ball to more attacking minded players and places himself in the exact best position required to break up the next opposition attack. He does this for 90 minutes a game, game after game, and his mistake rate overall is very very low.
You honestly can't see how this is valuable to the team? You don't think that since we've been giving up more goals in these few games than all of last season that his poor form has not been hugely influential? For that reason I would suggest, yes, we could well consider selling him. His motivation and attitude are not right. But to question his ability as a footballer, his ability to contribute to the team when he's on form ... that's pretty idiotic, even by the standards of this site. He's being chased by the best teams in Europe, he plays for one of the best teams in Europe. He is very very highly regarded as captain of Argentina and by a host of top flight managers around the world.
My God, I can't even believe I'm trying to justify him to you. Do yourself a favour, pull your head out of your rear end for 5 minutes and make an EFFORT to understand why he is such a highly regarded footballer rather than assuming that because you don't see it in the most obvious and superficial ways it can't be true. 

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Gee, thanks for lesson in football in football tactics.  As usual, you've missed the point.  Where have I questioned his football ability?  Nowhere. 

You make it sound like Mascherano is irreplaceable and there's no one else in world football who can do a similar job.  That's just ridiculous. Individual deification of footballers is a cancer in modern football in my view, and it prevents people from being objective and looking at the bigger picture.

Every player we have seems to be ireplaceable.  Dirku Kuyt is another player who, according to you, is seemingly the best Liverpool can do in the world on the right hand side.  It's just madness.

There was life before Mascherano!  There will be life after he goes.  Liverpool will not wither and die; the team will adapt and move forward.

There are other DMs in the world who could come in a do the job required. To suggest otherwise is just ignorance.

Yes, he can be valuable to the team, but so can another DM. 

I hate the idea that the DM has to be the most important position in the team.  And the way fans jump on the bandwagon and come out with things like 'but he's the captain of Argentina....he's the best DM in the world' is also maddening.

The ultimate point is this: I appreciate that Masch is valued player, but that does't mean that Liverpool can't survive without him.  A team like barcelona needs a player like him more than Liverpool do, especially under Benitez, who runs every player into the ground with his demands for defending/tackling back etc.

how many defensive players do we need in the team?!  We usually 4 defenders, 2 defensive-minded holding players and a defensive-right mid.  That's 7 outfield players who spend most of their time defending and tackling back.

Why do we need so many friggin' defensive-minded players?!  Why can't we have more progressive players?

And as I've mentioned many times already, Man United manage without an alleged world-class DM, as do Arsenal. Barcelona don't have masch style DM but they still win leagues and CL trophies!

Liverpool can and will survive without mascherano.

m15hun said...

If you want to be pedantic, yes, he is world class. He's played for his country on the world stage. That said, we MUST have world class players. The best we can sign.

Guest said...

Masch is asked to do a specific job and he does it excellently. We could have lost more or by a larger margin if Masch did not play in those games that appeared in your stats. This is how Rafa wants the team to play and each one has a role in the team. Man Utd did not have a world class DM simply because that's not their style of play. Yes, they won 3 titles in the last 3 years because they have a bigger squad than us and more money to spend.

Guest said...

Sell him faster, why still wait. Liverpool should know how to do business like Arsenal & ManU. Don't be stupid to keep such a player. He won't give 100% to LFC. Demand Selling Price should maintain or above at least 36M.Make profit in it & buy more valueable & quality player or not need to buy at all. Training up the reserver & youth player that already got...

frank said...

well clearly your an idiot.
last season liverpool had the best midfield in the league a perfect partnership of ball winner and passer
we sold half of our midfield this year and we're a disaster
We we're given 30million and we didn't buy a replacement now we're out of europe and prob not gonna be back next year
the only replacements for alonso were fabregas, xavi, sneijder or maybe pirlo who can do the same job as good instead we bought aquilani who might do a good job but it doesnt matter anymore
the only replacements for masc are essien and yaya
1 year after almost winning the league and you want our spine gone

sure torres gets injured alot lets sell him for lots of money and buy average players in lots of positions

Bikram said...

Sorry, Jaimie, you are wrong here. Our fullbacks are more attacking than most teams, actually all teams. I showed you with stats that Aurelio was the most effective attacking fullback in terms of goals and assists - stats which you yourself use to judge the creative usefulness of a player, this despite the fact that he played less games than either Ashley Cole or Patrice Evra. 

Even Insua this year is an attacking fullback, and given enough time, I'm sure he'll contribute more offensively than the two aforementioned fullbacks. And Glen Johnson plays right back for us, enough said there.

We didn't have 2 defensive mids last year, Alonso is a deep lying playmaker. His lack of pace means he had to sit behind and distribute. 

And what is the best measure of a team's creativity overall - goals, right? Guess who scored the most number of goals in the league last year? that's right - Liverpool.

You can't say that, oh, since this team has 2 deep mids, they're defensive. Ultimately the team works together.

And how can you even say that our right winger, Dirk Kuyt, is defensive. Just because he has a high work rate doesn't mean he's not creative. Are you going to say Tevez and Rooney aren't creative either? They work/ed their socks off for Man U. He scored 12 goals last year, as much as Rooney.

This year, despite languishing in 7th, Liverpool are the 3rd highest goalscorers in the league, 4 ahead of Man U. Surprisingly, its our defence which has been poor this year.

pepe said...

Barca, 30 mill plus Yaya Toure, yes please

Hmmm said...

what? so positive attributes 'dont count'?

olivetti said...

if this is said about Masa , then really what does Lucas offer ,
+ masa is defensively better

Guest said...

Hello, a Gooner here. For what it's worth Masch is definitely one of the top DMs in the game. The price quoted is very high and worthy of consideration and I think Jamie's only trying to assess the likely impact of a transfer so give him a break. the stats are interesting but they belie what most of us have seen with our own eyes, so maybe the games Masch missed weren't against top opposition? All I know is last season was the best Pool team i've seen for twenty years and he was a vital part of it (yes much better than 2005). Having said that I'd argue that Flamini is a ready made replacement and as he's bench warming at AC milan these days, probably gettable. He's Prem experienced, young and hungry. Personally I think his departure from Arsenal set us back much more than the loss of Adebayor, Toure or Hleb. But make no mistake about it, Masch is the real deal and replacing him with an untried player will be a backward step at a time when you can ill afford any more mistakes. 

YWNA in LU7 said...

I read today in one of the tabloids that as a part exchange, Barca are allegedly offering Yaya Toure and Bojan, if that's true, I'd be happy to see him go; he's been a great player for us and one who wears his heart on his sleeve, a quality I love but his mind's not been with us.

In Yaya Toure is a strong DM with good technique and Bojan is a creative striker who can make things happen.

rick said...

We don't never forget that LFC completely resurrect Masch's career.
Someone think that Rafa whould'n get 30 ml of pounds selling Masch.
Why is it the problem? There are many good, maybe fantastic, dm players out there who cost less than 30 ml of pounds.
How much Did We paid for buying Mascherano? 30 ML of pounds? I don't think so...
11-12 ML of Pounds for a very good sign in the same role, or possibily for a good international striker, as Carlton Cole or Klas Jan Huntelaar for add new options to our line attack.
I'd like to know the price tag of Mascherano when He was playing with Iron Workers...
30 Million of pounds? I Don't think so...

Guest said...

The only reason to sell him is if he really wants to go. No point in keeping a disgruntled player--especially if you can get a big profit for him. T o be honest I'm beginning to feel really sorry for Rafa who seems to have to run just to stand still, selling top players because they don't perceive Liverpool as "good enough". The only thing that will change this is success on the field. But how can Rafa compete if all his best players want to be elsewhere?







Let's face it, Liverpool has been punching over it's weight ever since 2001 and the combination of expectation and the finances of a second tier club, make the manager's job, currently, almost an impossible one. I for one wouldn't blame Rafa if he walked away in disgust--but I hope he doesn't.

Guest said...

More bullshit inductive reasoning from an attention addict

Guest said...

"Ferguson is a good judge of players, plus he is not stupid enough to waste 30m on defensive midfielder, probably because he knows he can get a player like Fletcher doing the same job at a fraction of the price."

No manager is infallible in the transfer market and Ferguson has made plenty of errors, he wasted £20m on a defensive midfielder when he bought the very injury prone Hargreaves.

Who exactly are you calling stupid here (for spending £30m on a DM)? Guardiola? He hasn't done much wrong at Barcelona so far!

As for Ferguson, he already had Scholes but it didn't stop him spending £28m on Veron did it?

"Anderson, Fletcher and Carrick may not be as good as Masch as DMs but thst's the point..."

Anderson £18m, Carrick £20m and Fletcher a product of the youth system. Hardly "cheap" alternatives to Mascherano are they! That's a total of £38m spent on two players neither of whom are equal to Mascherano.

"United three league titles/CL is proof that they have the right blend."

No it isn't. Those three titles were won with the assistance of Ronaldo and an entire team worth a fortune, it doesn't prove that they have the right balance in midfield at all. It proves that with an expensive, well assembled squad and the Worlds best player you can win trophies, hardly the revelation of the decade.

"United may have 'struggled' in midfield this season (debatable)..."

How is this debatable? Mascherano and Lucas didn't let them get a look in at Anfield and Scholes may as well have not been on the pitch! Their midfield is their weakness and any follower of football with a shred of knowledge about the game can see that.

Giggs can only be used sparingly, Scholes legs went before LAST season kicked off, Carrick shows glimpses of ability but more often than not he's average, Anderson has done little to warrant his £18m cost, Nani looks like he's on his way out, Valencia again has looked average; Fletcher is their one consistent performer.

Guest said...

"Ferguson is a good judge of players, plus he is not stupid enough to waste 30m on defensive midfielder, probably because he knows he can get a player like Fletcher doing the same job at a fraction of the price."

No manager is infallible in the transfer market and Ferguson has made plenty of errors, he wasted £20m on a defensive midfielder when he bought the very injury prone Hargreaves.

Who exactly are you calling stupid here (for spending £30m on a DM)? Guardiola? He hasn't done much wrong at Barcelona so far!

As for Ferguson, he already had Scholes but it didn't stop him spending £28m on Veron did it?

"Anderson, Fletcher and Carrick may not be as good as Masch as DMs but thst's the point..."

Anderson £18m, Carrick £20m and Fletcher a product of the youth system. Hardly "cheap" alternatives to Mascherano are they! That's a total of £38m spent on two players neither of whom are equal to Mascherano.

"United three league titles/CL is proof that they have the right blend."

No it isn't. Those three titles were won with the assistance of Ronaldo and an entire team worth a fortune, it doesn't prove that they have the right balance in midfield at all. It proves that with an expensive, well assembled squad and the Worlds best player you can win trophies, hardly the revelation of the decade.

"United may have 'struggled' in midfield this season (debatable)..."

How is this debatable? Mascherano and Lucas didn't let them get a look in at Anfield and Scholes may as well have not been on the pitch! Their midfield is their weakness and any follower of football with a shred of knowledge about the game can see that.

Giggs can only be used sparingly, Scholes legs went before LAST season kicked off, Carrick shows glimpses of ability but more often than not he's average, Anderson has done little to warrant his £18m cost, Nani looks like he's on his way out, Valencia again has looked average; Fletcher is their one consistent performer.

Guest said...

"Ferguson is a good judge of players, plus he is not stupid enough to waste 30m on defensive midfielder, probably because he knows he can get a player like Fletcher doing the same job at a fraction of the price."

No manager is infallible in the transfer market and Ferguson has made plenty of errors, he wasted £20m on a defensive midfielder when he bought the very injury prone Hargreaves.

Who exactly are you calling stupid here (for spending £30m on a DM)? Guardiola? He hasn't done much wrong at Barcelona so far!

As for Ferguson, he already had Scholes but it didn't stop him spending £28m on Veron did it?

"Anderson, Fletcher and Carrick may not be as good as Masch as DMs but thst's the point..."

Anderson £18m, Carrick £20m and Fletcher a product of the youth system. Hardly "cheap" alternatives to Mascherano are they! That's a total of £38m spent on two players neither of whom are equal to Mascherano.

"United three league titles/CL is proof that they have the right blend."

No it isn't. Those three titles were won with the assistance of Ronaldo and an entire team worth a fortune, it doesn't prove that they have the right balance in midfield at all. It proves that with an expensive, well assembled squad and the Worlds best player you can win trophies, hardly the revelation of the decade.

"United may have 'struggled' in midfield this season (debatable)..."

How is this debatable? Mascherano and Lucas didn't let them get a look in at Anfield and Scholes may as well have not been on the pitch! Their midfield is their weakness and any follower of football with a shred of knowledge about the game can see that.

Giggs can only be used sparingly, Scholes legs went before LAST season kicked off, Carrick shows glimpses of ability but more often than not he's average, Anderson has done little to warrant his £18m cost, Nani looks like he's on his way out, Valencia again has looked average; Fletcher is their one consistent performer.

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Yet despite all these problems, united have qualified for the second stage of the CL at a canter and are ahead of us in the table.

Guest said...

Yes they have but it's a lot easier to play against European opposition when you haven't got 6 or 7 of your first team missing at different stages of the season thus far.

It's clear we do not have the squad to match United at the moment, hopefully in time and with the right financial support we will be in a similar position and will be able to cope with all but the worst injury crisis.

12121212 said...

u dont think a DM is important?!?!?!

if u actually understood anything ur realise that uniteds stuttering form this season is because they dont have fletcher fit - their DM.....let forget about roy keane, gattuso, makele and play like madrid....cos that really works doesnt it?


the fact is, he probably is the best DM in the world rite now, why sell him to get a weaker player in? that makes no sense and then i can see ur next article...

HOW COULD RAFA SELL MASCH WITH NO REPLACEMENT?

get a life mate, you ofc know nothing about football and certainly not a liverpool fan...

Hallaj said...

Well said really. If someone does NOT want to be a RED, why bother keeping them and drop the WHOLE team's performance. It DOES effect the backroom's environment and such. The last thing we need now are those disturbance.. I know it's a loss to let him leave but at the right price and with the current situation we're in, I DO believe it's the best thing to do.

Guest said...

you put all these stats down then say - that's so many games where we didn't win - whats to say that in those matches that we did win, had he not played we would have lost? Just because we haven't lost when he's not played doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened in the other games he did play.
Have you ever been to a game and watched him play, he does more than what you see on the TV when he as the ball.  He's constantly on the move looking for the space the opposition might be getting into should we lose the ball, he covers for other players when they move out of position. Basically he's a genius in footballing terms.  There's not many other players i have ever seen play like this - yes he's off form this year, but that can happen to the best of players.
*and i'm sure all this critisism from so called fans is really helping him*
There actually aren't that many teams looking to invest big money in him, considering Liverpool got him for around £18m and he's unquestionably gained value since. Barcelona have said they wouldn't spend £15m on him, let alone £40m.
You say Liverpool have drawn and lost more games than ever since Masch joined, you see this as proving he's a bad player, i see this as proving he's a good player - can you imagine where we would be in the table had we lost all the games we drew and drew all the games we won?
Once again you include the stats on how many goals the player has scored. It's not his job to score goals, it's his job to provide support to the rest of the team.  Jamie Carragher has played over 400 games for Liverpool and scored 3,4,5 goals should we sell him? John Terry does the same job for Chelsea has played less than 300 games for them but scored 18 goals. Rio Ferdinand, little over 200 games for Utd with 6 goals.  These stats don't stop people from saying Carragher is a great player.  It's not all about the goals and assists.

Callum said...

Darren Fletcher has been spoken of as a good DM on here, certainly doing the job at least as well as Mascherano, and yet in 8 appearances this season he has contributed 2 goals and 2 assists.

Callum said...

Also, Re: Liverpool's injuries, we have had our true 'world-class DM', Hargreaves, out for ages, Fletcher was injured for a while including the match against you (you're very lucky how that always seems to happen), our central defensive pairing, widely regarded as the reason we won the title, have barely started, and our most in-form and creative player (Giggs) was injured and now Berbatov is too.

murphym said...

if he is so replacable, why haven't you mentioned a so called replacement for mascherano? to get a decent player it will cost over 20 mill! this is just another pathetic interview to go with the rest of rubbish you have been writing recently, also if you sell mascherano for over 30 mill, are you sure the so called owners who you have been brown nosing recently with your articles, are they going to release rafa proper funds for a decent replacement

Jaimie Kanwar said...

Murphy - I have mentioned possible replacements 5 times so far in this thread.  Perhaps you should read properly, eh?

ngog and his schlong said...

This site is an absolute joke. Don't know how many matches this writer has been to, but he's a shit spurter and for that reason... i'm out.

Guest said...

Of course Mach is replaceable, but by the same token one can argue that torres is also replaceable (only a few would fit the bill of course). Some thoughts on your above points:

1. I agree we should not keep players who don't want to give their all for the club. But just because the coach and player don't have the best relationship is not a huge deal and a few media outlets say he is unhappy does not make it gospel.

2. We don't want to be the club that sells because the price is high do we?

3. This may be true, but there aren't a lot of midfielders in the world who are as good at defending as mach who can then be a top attacking player.

4. So what? Does every pass from every player have to be that killer ball?

5. In theory any player from any position is replaceable. 

6. To single out a handful of errors is too much like scapegoating. Everyone makes mistakes. Punishing people for being proactive and messing up isn't the way to go about things.

7. I would argue that team results are influenced by much more than one single player. And draws are better than defeats aren't they?

8. The poor guy gets flack for starting games against the lesser sides when he shouldn't and then also when he doesn't start enough?

9. See point 7.

10. As above. But an (almost) 50% win record against the world's top clubs is quite enviable I would suggest.

11. This suggests that we should sell our quality players who are 'excess capacity' should be sold to fund other acquisitions. Net buy argument anyone?

12. The majority of our defensive frailties stem from an unsettled back 4, a young left back and a lack of height (especially when defending set pieces).

13. See point 2.

Masch is not irreplaceable, of course not. But can another come in and do a BETTER job. No. Would Gerrard, Benayoun, Aurelio, Riera, et al have as much confidence to get forward regularly with Cattermole behind them? I doubt it. Having him there frees up Gerrard immensely. 

Nash said...

the problem with liverpool is that we don't have a plan if any of the player leaves the club. we have to start identifying  players who can replace any first team player from now onwards.

Nash said...

if he's writing rubbish then you're reading rubbish. I totally agree that Mascherano is replaceable. He is the best but replaceable not as direct replacement but in other position. For example players like Henry, Villa can help.

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