Yesterday, I argued that using Aly Cissokho as a left wing-back is counter-productive, and damages the effectiveness of Liverpool's 352 formation. With Jose Enrique out injured, the French defender seems to be Rodgers' only real option, but Liverpool legend Jimmy Case has now urged the manager to drop the Cissokho experiment ASAP.
Speaking to BBC Radio Merseyside today, Case - who won THREE European Cups during his time at Anfield - blamed the recent Arsenal defeat on 'problems sparked by the wing-back positions', and singled out Cissokho for specific criticism. He observed:
"The more I see Aly Cissoko operate there [as a left-wing back] the less I’m happy with it. I wouldn’t play him there again. His control isn’t there or his first touch, he can’t get past a player from a standing position and he doesn’t have the intelligence to follow the fluency of play. These are things so crucial to playing in that position".
I totally agree with this. Cissokho clearly does not have the skillset required to be an effective wing-back. As Case notes, his touch, positioning and game intelligence are lacking, but he also doesn't appear to have the stamina/fitness to get up and down the pitch for ninety minutes. It's not his fault, of course. Cissokho is a left-back, and it's Rodgers' decision to play him out of position, something that he does with alarming regularity with a variety of players.
Jose Enrique seems to get a lot of stick from LFC fans, but despite his consistently poor end product in the final third, he's a far better choice to play the wing-back role, and when he returns, he'll hopefully come straight back into the team.
By then, however, it may be a moot point anyway, as - with any luck - Rodgers will hopefully decide to scrap the 352 formation and revert to a formation that *suits* the players available. The only players who benefit from 352 are Suarez, Sturridge, and the club's central defenders. Everyone else looks uncomfortable and/or is rendered ineffective:
* Cissokho is ineffective as a wing-back.
* Moses makes no impact as a number 10.
* Henderson and Gerrard fail to score goals.
A formation change should suit everyone in the team, and it should make tactical sense, but it's obvious (IMO) that Rodgers switched to 352 to accommodate the surplus of central defenders in the squad. That is not a good enough reason to persist with it, and if Rodgers hadn't made a mistake over the summer by buying too many defenders, the team would probably still be playing 433 (or variations thereof) right now.
Ultimately, 352 is not required to get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge - those two will score/create goals in any formation, and if reverting to 433 means dropping one of the central defenders then Rodgers has to just suck it up and do it.
Author: Jaimie K
Speaking to BBC Radio Merseyside today, Case - who won THREE European Cups during his time at Anfield - blamed the recent Arsenal defeat on 'problems sparked by the wing-back positions', and singled out Cissokho for specific criticism. He observed:
"The more I see Aly Cissoko operate there [as a left-wing back] the less I’m happy with it. I wouldn’t play him there again. His control isn’t there or his first touch, he can’t get past a player from a standing position and he doesn’t have the intelligence to follow the fluency of play. These are things so crucial to playing in that position".
I totally agree with this. Cissokho clearly does not have the skillset required to be an effective wing-back. As Case notes, his touch, positioning and game intelligence are lacking, but he also doesn't appear to have the stamina/fitness to get up and down the pitch for ninety minutes. It's not his fault, of course. Cissokho is a left-back, and it's Rodgers' decision to play him out of position, something that he does with alarming regularity with a variety of players.
Jose Enrique seems to get a lot of stick from LFC fans, but despite his consistently poor end product in the final third, he's a far better choice to play the wing-back role, and when he returns, he'll hopefully come straight back into the team.
By then, however, it may be a moot point anyway, as - with any luck - Rodgers will hopefully decide to scrap the 352 formation and revert to a formation that *suits* the players available. The only players who benefit from 352 are Suarez, Sturridge, and the club's central defenders. Everyone else looks uncomfortable and/or is rendered ineffective:
* Cissokho is ineffective as a wing-back.
* Moses makes no impact as a number 10.
* Henderson and Gerrard fail to score goals.
A formation change should suit everyone in the team, and it should make tactical sense, but it's obvious (IMO) that Rodgers switched to 352 to accommodate the surplus of central defenders in the squad. That is not a good enough reason to persist with it, and if Rodgers hadn't made a mistake over the summer by buying too many defenders, the team would probably still be playing 433 (or variations thereof) right now.
Ultimately, 352 is not required to get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge - those two will score/create goals in any formation, and if reverting to 433 means dropping one of the central defenders then Rodgers has to just suck it up and do it.
Author: Jaimie K
I agree about what you say about Rodgers expectations for players to have flexibility to play out of their best positions, however i find it a contradiction that you are happy for him to do this with our best player? I think we will have to try a diamond formation out! Playing Suarez wide compromises his abilities, he needs freedom and to not have to think about helping out the full back defensively. With the diamond we would be able to keep SaS in their best positions and also play Coutinho in his best position. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteagree with u totally jk this 352 was implemented to accommodate sakho imo and during games he has proved to be getting used to the bpl however br needs to make some tough decisions and revert back to 433 which also suits coutinho better also..seems like its between agger and skrtel either one wont let us down but br has made this headache buy buying all these defenders so he needs to deal with it and provide a formation and team that works well for all not just for some
ReplyDeleteI agree about wing back Cissokho, in fact I would say he is not good enough a full back either, to play for a TOP team.
ReplyDeleteOn the CD's, Toure was not bought, so effectively we only bought one for the present team, and one (Ilori) for the future. The dilemma BR has found himself in is that Skrtel is playing the best football of his LFC career so far, but that is a welcome surprise, even at Arsenal last Saturday, he was excellent, despite the loss. I thought he would be at Napoli or in Russia this season, and I expect so did Rodgers, hence the surplus in CD's.
For me, situations like we have with the CD's are a welcome dilemma, if only we had these dilemma's throughout the team, then we would really challenge for the title, and not just top four.
Yeah we should try! But where would Gerrard fit in there?
ReplyDeletehendo and gerrard instead of lucas with couts on top?
ReplyDeleteits the left side which we are lacking no jose and we are in deep boo boo...luke shaw anyone?
ReplyDeletei'd be scared for him, leftbacks seem to perish at liverpool... but why don't we look towards spain? there fullbacks are all capable of playing wingbacks.. also, jack robinson is looking pretty class right now in the championship
ReplyDeleteGJ is a brilliant LB, as we seen when he played there last season,
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna write to Santa Claus and ask him for "Montoya" to play on the right, then we could play GJ on the left, he is the only 100% two footed defender we have, equally as good on either foot.
we need to address this problem cissokho aint no wing back
ReplyDeletecan agger play in this position ? granted he has lost some pace but he loves going forward and has a great left foot?
ReplyDeletegood call
ReplyDeleteyea, tbh flanagan did not play that poorly against arsenal... maybe put him at RB and Johnson at LB. Flanagan just needs to have a bit more confidence, his technical ability is third only to enrique and johnson when it comes to full backs. (but actually i just want kelly to be the kelly that he was at the beginning of the year..)
ReplyDeletewhen i watch the game lucas has the best touch out of the current starting midfielders by far.. its just that I feel when Lucas plays with Gerrard (as with everyone on liverpool besides suarez) he just defers to him too much, Lucas is a great passer of the ball, he just needs to be more courageous.
ReplyDeleteif no Montoya could agger fill this void?
ReplyDeletei would go with a 442 and play the middle four in a diamond of lucas at the back hendo and gerrard along side and coutinho at the front linking with SAS with
ReplyDeleteLB has been a problem for a very long time now. Since John Arne Riise we have never been able to find a player we can depend on at LB. Aurelio was a sick note and I would say that Enrique is the best we have had since Riise but problem he is just too inconsistent.
ReplyDeleteRobinson has played 12 games for Blackpool this season so he is getting some much needed first team experience plus Blackpool are doing quite well too so it is also a good environment to be in. Let's see what happens when Jack comes back from his loan.
it is a huge prob logan but I believe br entered the last transfer window with 352 in mind theres no other reason for buying so many centre backs
ReplyDeleteIf selected Gerrard would play to the right of the diamond.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely.
ReplyDeleteEssentially a 4-1-2-1-2 diamond would suit us well.
Allows Stevie to move forward a bit. Puts Coutinho in the 10 role and allows Sturridge and Suarez to stay up front together.
The only remaining questions are: Who are the two 2 CBs, who's the LB, and who is LCM?
I'd say go with a rotation of sorts between Agger, Sakho, Toure and Skrtel. If you can essentially assure that they each play 2 of every 3 games, that should satisfy everyone.
The LB is Enrique when healthy, but at least Cissokho should be more comfortable in that role instead of the LWB.
And finally, the LCM... I think it has to be either Henderson or Moses, right?
its a tricky one - when things go well we all praise the ingenuity of br and the 352 etc. when it doesnt work we say the formation is a problem.
ReplyDeleteIts a fair point that the rest of the team hasnt contributed goals. but i think that also has to do with the fact that enrique and coutinho havent really played this season alongside suarez. if you remember last season the combination of these 3 created many goal scoring situations.
Enrique isnt a clever crosser of the ball but his interplay is brilliant and his defense more often than not is good too.
Where Br did miss a trick is not strengthening the midfield with proper purchases. Though sakho is a good player - i dont think we actually needed him once toure had come in. Cissokho too isnt setting the world alight. The jury is still out on moses and aspas as well. maybe they will come good as we get further in the season.
Henderson, though energetic doesnt have a final product - and as he is the midfielder who gets forward most many chances will fall to him and the arsenal game was indicative of him so far he missed 2 very good opportunities.
Gerrard and Lucas maybe perform simlar jobs and that can be problematic against the top teams. Id feel that Br could be more aggressive by swopping gerrard with henderson.
It's very short sighted to just dismiss 352 because it didn't work in one game, saying that it only benefits a few players on the pitch. I'm sure having read many of your articles you're clever enough to realise that just like any formation or tactic, they're only as effective as the players implementing them.
ReplyDeleteFor example, if against Arsenal, 352 didn't work predominantly because the wing backs available firstly weren't good enough in those positions, I'd say both Cissokho & Flanagan are more suited to full back. We ended up with the central midfield getting flooded as they played narrow with a wealth of world class technicians. We also didn't exploit Flamini's absence enough partly as we didn't have a natural number 10 pushing their midfield back, and exploiting that space between their midfield and defence. You also have to remember Arsenal are a very good team!
However against West Brom, still a good team but obviously not up to Arsenal's standard, our central midfield three swamped their two, and we had one great wing back available and playing in Johnson (his influence being so great that Cissokho didn't get shown up on the other side, as he wasn't used/ needed as much), and on top of this, our defensive three easily marked their 1/2 and it allowed both Suarez & Sturridge to play high up top and murder their defence.
Point I'm trying to make here is that it both games highlight that the players available, and to a point the teams we play against, should dictate formation. 352 isn't a bad formation just because it didn't work against Arsenal, but I'd agree with you it wasn't right for the players we had fit. If Johnson, Enrique, and Coutinho, had been fit I'd argue that we would've had a much better chance of winning that game with a 352. Even if just Johnson had have been fit it would have had a massive impact, as he would've forced Arsenal's narrow midfield to stretch out, meaning our central midfield wouldn't have been so swamped.
Rightly or wrongly, that with the composition of the squad we have this season- loads of centre backs, a great striking partnership, and two well suited first choice wing backs, i'd still argue that if all those guys are fit, then 352 is best choice formation for us, to get the most from all of our key players. Playing 442, 451, 433, etc, will generally result more of our best players starting on the bench rather than on the pitch
Evra was also written off upon arriving in manchester. He and Vidic were awful when they first arrived. 5 league titles later.........................
ReplyDeleteTo be fair he really only has played about 2 and half games, he wasn't bad against New Castle or West Brom, and his impact against Arsenal was practically Negligible. For the first goal, I think Sakho was caught up the filed a little to high, so some blame lies on him too.
ReplyDeleteAbout his stamina - he was breaking a sweat, like dripping about 5 minutes in, maybe there's something more to that.
Either way, after a run of a few games he might improve and be at the level of Enrique. We'll see. I'm not saying he's great, just not as terrible as some are making him out to be. Flanagan had much more of the ball, and didn't have any impact what so ever - probably worse than Cissokho.
About the formation, if it works use it, if it doesn't scrap it, or use it depending on the opposition. There is some credit to Rodgers in his willingness to try different things - if he can hone the ability and predict the usefulness of different formations or players correctly - it's a good thing, keeps the other side guessing, and can work to our advantage. There are so many managers that never try anything new, and makes for easier preparation for the opposition. Hope settles on a few tried and true formations, and uses them correctly.
How could we agree a deal with Verona when Porto owns him?
ReplyDeleteThe only thing i know about this guy is I signed him in Fifa last year :)
ReplyDeleteBut if we have sanctioned a 16M move for June, and dont invest in a top midfielder in January, then proirities are way off.
Hopefully we will be seeing money spent in Jan, I'd like to think we could land Mata or Cabaye, with the Newcastle man probably the more realistic, if not quite as talented as Mata. Having said that, Cabaye is probably more in the mould of what we need in midfield.
The report in Tutto Mercato says the S*n has reported this story.
ReplyDeleteI doubt you should put any effort in talking about it.
Ha never even copped that.
ReplyDeleteI think that Hellas have struck a deal to buy him for £12M when the loan runs out. So they buy him then sell to us for a profit. That's my guess anyway. I'd like to know where you got this info though Jaimie?
ReplyDeleteApologies. I've found the source.
ReplyDeleteHes only on loan to verona, he has no agreement to join them
ReplyDeleteYeah it'll be a miracle if we get Mata, especially if we're still up arounf the CL places. But he should still def be a target and an attempt made. Never know, Jose might be hung over that day or something.
ReplyDelete12 goals in 3 years and people call him a new Messi? ROFL
ReplyDeleteHow about a 4-3-1-2? Mignolet in goal. Johnson skrtel sakho Enrique in defense. Gerrard Lucas henderson. Coutinho in number 10 role and SAS up front
ReplyDeleteDon't think there's enough flexibility or width in that formation, personally. I really don't understand why we haven't reverted to a 4-2-3-1 yet! We could put Suarez in the hole with a freedom to roam. We could utilise the 'false wingers' tactic that we saw at the beginning of the year with the three behind the number 9 playing in a free form style. I felt that against Arsenal we lost the match because they overran our midfield with having five quality technical midfielders. If we played a similar formation to theirs we'd be utilising the main assets of our attacking players such as Coutinho, Suarez, Aspas, Moses and Alberto.. Which I think would help us to boss the game from midfield. We can provide width from the fullbacks, which Glen is particularly good at!
ReplyDeleteHALLAS VERONA GETTING CASH FOR SOMEONE WHO ISN'T THEIRS !
ReplyDeleteTHIS IS NOT TRUE . OFFICIAL STATEMENT.
ReplyDeleteArsenal beat Dortmund 1-0. Makes our loss a lot easier to take now.
ReplyDeleteI'd be more happy if we got him and Jorginho for that price combined because more than Iturbe its Jorginho for Verona like Suso for Almeria.
ReplyDeleteSkrtel was far from excellent. He refuses to pass to the midfield and invites pressure on Mignolet time and again or the fullbacks. Plus he hardly jumped for the cross for the first goal, should have been headed away before it reached Cazorla, although Lucas and Gerrard should've tracked his run but he was not blameless. Agger in place of Skrtel and we will be a better team , without doubt.
ReplyDeleteNO. he is center back.
ReplyDeleteThat winger role is vital in how we play, there is no getting around it, even if we revert from playing 3 CBs. Johnson is precisely the right kind of player to have in that role because he's got all the skills to pull it off. Our midfielders need the wide players to help find space but if you send a ball wide then something has to be done with it. I had thought that I saw something half decent in Cissokho that meant he would solve some of the issues that we have with Enrique but playing at this top level requires a top player. Johnson didn't come cheap so I do wonder if we have to abandon the idea of trying to sign "value" wing backs. As JK says, Cissokho is a perfectly adequate defender, he has some good pace and direct running so it's not like he's simply not good enough for Liverpool, but he does need to be at a very high level to play the role he's currently in. People have pointed out to me before that real quality ball playing wing backs are few and far between and I'd agree.
ReplyDeleteI'd say it's clear enough that no one was sure of his ability when we took him in, that's he's here with "potential" to be a quality winger, hence the loan. He's going to have to show that top quality to stay around, otherwise he's just a waste of space. Good but just not good enough, and we have had enough of that over the years. Still, it's very early in his Liverpool career and he should be afforded a little time to adapt to what is being asked of him. I put him in the same bracket as Aspas - a player who seems to have the right skill set but is being asked to step up to a whole new level and do things that are more than what he's used to in the past. Rodgers expects a lot from his players and so he should. For us to be a top 4 team means everyone on the team sheet has to be quality.
Why not try agger in leftback and Sakho as DMC? Actually I think sakho has the potential to do so with his pace and power. Rodgers has to let gerrard play less and let Alberto sub in second half or start once in awhile. Stevie should just play in an advanced position no 10 or right wing like benitez era. Once he tires just sub him I think this way he can just go all out like Ryan giggs. I think Stevie should lose a bit of weight which would help his mobility. Giggs can last so long because he is a lot lighter. Look at mcallister he is also lighter. Gerrard is a bit like Rooney in size and he lost some weight recently and became sharper. I know Rooney is not gonna maintain his physique and when he gets older he will also lose his mobility.
ReplyDeleteCabaye? No we need Steel in our midfield to be honest and I doubt he will bring that
ReplyDelete- Gerrard hasn't scored in open play for 26 games so it's not because of the formation that his still not doing it now.
ReplyDelete- Henderson was hardly a prolific goal scorer neither so it's still not the formation's fault if he's not scoring.
- Moses hasn't played the n°10 role fore a few matches now
- No one should feel uncomfortable playing 3-5-2 cause every player plays more or less in the same position than in 4-3-3 except for the wing backs who have to work a bit more but It's hardly as if it was a complete different sport.
I wrote this comment before but it disappeared. Tutto Mercato have reported this as a story the Sun has reported. I doubt you can call it news.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't worth my time.
How different is a WB and a FB these days? Most FBs are expected to use the wings and get the ball forward and cross it in. A WB wouldn't have that much defensive duties (limited defensive duties) as a FB because there are 3 CBs. So a WB should be able to get forward and link up play more often. If Cissokho fails as a WB, he'd fail as a LB too if you expect him to open up attack from the left like Enrique does. If he was third-choice at Valencia, then its pretty clear he's just not good enough and we definitely have to look for someone better.
ReplyDeletei am lost about this guy. maybe i should watch a few clips of him to get a picture of what he really is
ReplyDeleteFor me, to say that playing a full back at wing back is playing him out of position is as absurd as saying that a center back plays out of position in a back 3 instead of back 4.
ReplyDeleteIt's exactly the same job he's asked to do...
LOL!! This story sums up JK & his website!!!
ReplyDeleteSay its a 4-4-2 with wingers for example. A full back operating in such a system is very different to a wing back in a 3-5-2. He faces different challenges, both defensively and offensively as the balance of the side is very different. A wing back in a 3-5-2 will get a different kind of support down the wing and arguably considerably less, as he won't have a winger in front of him to combine with. Dirk Kuyt gave Glen Johnson a lot of protection whilst the Dutchman played on the right wing for us, when we played a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1. Now he would get a different kind of support in a 3-5-2.
ReplyDeleteYes, the modern FB (at least most of them) are required to bomb forward and attack well but there are still differing challenges faced, offensively and defensively, by a FB and a WB, to varying degrees.
There was another young Argentinian we were linked with who looked much better. Forgot is name
ReplyDeleteHim and Jorginho should be watched closely. The right profile for our club.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there is any truth to this particular story though.
Bale wiould fit perfectly at left back gong forward at Real. But they will use him at the flank with Suarez on the other side with Ronaldo in the middle. And the impossille step forward would be Yaya Toure. We should be lining up that kind of players. Instead we will get scarts from Real,get to the champions and kick them out.
ReplyDelete