9/11/2013 02:30:00 pm

'He's done nothing' - Hamann insists 'hyped' £30m star is not 'world class'. Agree...?

As we've seen many times in the past, the British Press has a habit of grossly overhyping any English player who shows the slightest bit of talent, and the golden boy du jour is currently Arsenal's Jack Wilshere. Steven Gerrard recently added to the hype with his exaggerated public praise of the 21-year old, but Liverpool legend Dietmar Hamann has dismissed the idea that the midfielder is a world class player, and slated Roy Hodgson for playing the young midfielder ahead of Manchester United's Michael Carrick.

After watching Wilshere's limp performance against Ukraine last night, Hamann - who played a massively important role in helping Liverpool lift the trophy in 2005 - argued that the England team is 'stuck in the dark ages', with players 'picked on reputation not merit', and on the subject of Wilshere, he tweeted:

"Jack Wilshere is world class? Done nothing in the game yet [Michael] Carrick is a vital part of United won 5 leagues and CL and is not even considered. England media hyped up Wilshere to be world class [but] he's a talent, no more".

This is not the first time Hamann has criticised the hype over Wilshere. After Arsenal's Champions League defeat to Bayern Munich in February, he observed:

"Bayern tore an average Arsenal team apart today. Wilshere world class? I don't think so. People say I'm harsh, but the simple fact is he wouldn't get into Munich's team. [Bastien] Schweinsteiger said he [Wilshere] is top class, but what was he meant to say? Schweini showed today who is world class and who isn't"

Gerrard has a long history of starry-eyed hyperbole when it comes to certain players, and his views on Wilshere are typically exaggerated. In a recent interview, he told Reporters:

"He [Wilshere] is a one-off. He's a lot better than your normal Premier League midfielder. I think he's got the potential to become one of the best in the world. He can tick almost every box, and he's going to get better and better. He'll get better than he is now which is a scary thought"

Wilshere - who according to Arsenal legend Paul Merson is worth £30m - has barely played 70 Premier League games for Arsenal in his entire career, and he's apparently on his way to being one of the 'best in the world'?! What happened to actually *proving* your ability over a period of time? What has Wilshere done in the game so far?

I agree with Hamann: there's no way Wilshere is even close to world class at this stage. When assessing 'World Class' ability, the only fair way to judge is to apply - where possible - objective criteria. A purely subjective analysis has questionable merit because it is based on emotion, (flawed) individual perception and biased, experiential interpretation. The subjective formula is basically: "I see, therefore he is...World Class".

Subjectively, any player can be anointed 'world class', but it has no meaning unless the label can be persuasively justified with objective facts. Before Wilshere can be considered 'World Class', he'll have to excel at all three levels of football.

The Three Levels of Football

In Europe, there are clearly three levels of top-class professional football:

* DOMESTIC: Top National Leagues.
* EUROPEAN: Elite European Competitions (Champions League, or equivalent)
* WORLD: International Tournaments (Qualifying and finals)

World Class: My Definition

A player cannot be considered World Class unless and until:

* He excels for his team - i.e. has a specific, measurable impact (SMI) - at all three levels of football.

* He dominates games in his position and pushes his team to relative success at all three levels.

Relative Success

Context is everything, and the following should be considered when assessing players:

* The team's relative strength in comparison to other teams in the league/group.
* The team's Optimum Achievement Level (OAL)
* Causation: The player's causal contribution to his team's OAL.

Key questions:

* What is the OAL of this team in a given competition? In other words, considering the overall quality of players available, what is the absolute best this team can realistically expect to achieve?

* To what extend did the player in question help the team to meet its OAL?

* But for the player under consideration, would the team still have achieved its OAL?

Issues to Consider

* SMI at all three levels is required; high achievement in two out of three levels is not good enough.

* International tournament football is (IMO) the highest level of football; it is arguably the most mentally demanding, and only the very best players can consistently perform with the hopes of a nation - i.e. massive pressure - on a their shoulders. Others consider European tournaments (i.e. the Champions League) to be the apex of the modern game, and I can see the argument for that too. In reality, though, the question is irrelevant - players still need to excel at all three levels to labelled 'World Class'.

* A variety of objective, position-specific criteria should be used when assessing the SMI of players. For example, for attacking players: Goals; assists; conversion rate; key passes; shot-assists; passing accuracy etc. For defenders: goals conceded; blocks; aerial duels won; tackle success rate etc.

* A player's individual SMI is all important. How far did the player contribute to the team achieving its OAL? If you remove the player's SMI from the equation, would the team still achieve its OAL? If so, then that player is probably not world class. Truly world class players are absolutely integral to their team's success, to the extent that, without that player, the team would not achieve its OAL.

In Wilshere's case, he hasn't yet achieved a consistent SMI at any level of football. For example:

* 124 appearances for club and country since 2009.
* 5 goals/15 assists in 124 apps.
* Goal every 24 apps.
* Assist every 8 apps.

In terms of SMI, that's pretty poor for a supposed 'world class' player.

The best thing Gerrard et al could do for the midfielder is stop overhyping his ability with pressure-inducing hyperbole, and let him quietly get on with developing his game.

Read more: World Class Football Performance: A New Definition (Includes exceptions)



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123 Comments :

me said...

If Wilshere is not world class, Gerrard needs to join a pub team.

Me said...

And Hamann set the world on light didn't he ?

Was said...

The best thing you can do is stop writing about other club's players

Will said...

Literally? No, I don't think he did.

coliemac said...

I don't agree Jamie with your measurement process because going by that you would I assume then not think George Best was not World Class on the basis he didn't do it Iterntationally for NI. We all are aware football is a team game and for that reason no 1 man will make an amazing impact on his own.
You could put Messi in Fleetwood Towns team and he would look crap because he probably wouldn't get any service. You are as good as the players that surround you.
In relation to Wilshire he has far from proven anything. He hasn't even had one full proper season. He looks to have plenty of potential as does some one else in the same situtation Phil Jones....but the way both contract injuries they could both be also rans....we will have to wait and see to be honest.

Redburns said...

Spot on Jaimie. Wilshire is nowhere near world class. Technically he looks superior to other young English players but he doesn't have anywhere near the levels of productivity required to be considered anywhere near world class. If he was playing in Spain he wouldn't even be noticed and wouldn't even be worth 10 million in my opinion. Overhyped because he's English simple as that

Andy said...

I am a big fan of Wilshere but the truth is he is not world class (hopefully one day he will he will develop into being world class) just like the term Genius its over used...and to the two idiots who have already posted...WTF do you know about anything!? Gerrard who was wanted by Inter Milan, Real Madrid and B Munich needs to join a pub team...are you seriously saying Wilshere is better than Gerrard...prick!
Hamann in my opinion was only appreciated by those who knew football, he was seriously under-rated...not too far behind Viera & Keane back in the day, but as not a dynamic player scoring for fun, those who know F All about football fail to appreciate him. Not world class but Wilshere has a long way to go to equal him!

Jamie England said...

I’m a Gooner, and Hamann's stated the obvious.. Jack isn't world class.. not yet, he has the potential to be, he's 21 years old, had missed the best part of 2 years’ worth of football... to base an opinion on last night’s performance is ridiculous... 7.. 8.. of the England lads last night were very poor, including Jack and Theo, although in Jack's defense he was repeatedly fouled.. as for the Carrick thing, I rate Carrick, but imagine how immobile a midfield 3 of Carrick Lampard and Gerrard would be.. I’m not sure it'd work.. You're not going to take Gerrard out because he's a better player than Carrick, offers more and looks fully fit for the 1st time in years, and without him last night we would have conceaded, If it was me, Lampard out.. Carrick in..

E9 Gunner said...

Wilshere is not world class yet, but neither is Carrick. Bayern destroyed Arsenal in ONE LEG of the Champions League, but what did Bayern do to Barcelona in BOTH LEGS of the Champions League? Lets all just say Barcelona have poor midfielders.

Greg said...

Wilshere has a mile of improvement until he will even go close to Gerard dont get too carried away.

Duncan said...

He isn't world class but certainly has the potential to be. For me he is on about the same level as Isco at Madrid. Very similar styles although Isco hits in more goals. Both have produced great performances, but Wilshere, for whatever reason, hasn't produced the consistency. Not sure how this is related to Liverpool FC though, just because a player and ex player have commented on him.

Will said...

I would rather see Wilshere over Carrick. Ive never liked Carrick.

Duncan said...

Carrick definitely is world class and the and the EPL are only just starting to realise it. He's one of the best passing midfielders in the game. The rest of Europe have known all along.

Jamie England said...

Ive never liked Frank Lampard.. if fat Frank isn't scoring from 30 yeards he offers very little.. not partcularly creative, and defo isn't box to box anymore.. a passenger in games.. I think as long Jack's fit he should feature..

Will said...

If you look at the relative success part, that would explain your Best argument.
You could include Bale in the as well. Sure Wales wont win the World Cup, but if Bale propels Wales to the next level i.e. qualifying for a tournament, or getting close, then that is international success for Wales.
However, Bale isn't world class either. Yet.

Will said...

True, but Lampard offers more than Carrick IMO. therefore I would have him over Carrick.

RVP said...

England players are picked on reputation, its pathetic and getting really boring. Hamann is 100% right in what he's said. Its like Roy reads newspapers to choose his team.

AndyYNWA said...

It was a 'world class' Hamman who came on in Istanbul and was pivotal in Liverpool winning the best European cup final in history. Now that IS world class!! One of the worlds finest midfielders in his time.
Are you seriously comparing Wilshere with Steven Gerrard????? I suggest you go to the back of the room and have a little chat with yourself.
Jack Wilshere is an average player at best at the moment. He does show some potential but he wouldn't get into the current Manure, Chelski, City or Liverpool sides.

Mr. Point Of View said...

1) come on who care about how wilshere doin?
2) i think compare wilshare to seb or stevie is way too much. be fair go head to head with our hendo.....
3) in last few game gunner played, i think ramsey more in form than jack
4) i prefer parker + stevie

Jamie England said...

I think Jack could offer something completely different.. he's got the potential to be a truely complete midfielder.. i've never seen him bullied like he was last night, that wouldnt have happened to a confident Jack Wilshire... I think he'll be back to is best by the next 2 intenationals... I thought Cahill was excellent, as was Gerrard..

Anonymous said...

Agree. The young man must put his foot on the ground. With the right attitude and some luck with injuries, he could fulfill his destiny as a world class footballer. For now he is not.

Danny said...

Strange topic for a Liverpool blog....as a Gooner myself, I can tell you in my opinion he is nowhere near world class. The English media and England non Arsenal fans alike have built him as a saviour and he has a way to go.
Currently, if a midfielder had to make way, on current form he would be the chosen one. He did have a great period before his injury when Cesc first departed, in a struggling Arsenal side when for ten games or so his drive, tenacity and some of his technical dexterity stood out. However, in more recent times his lack of goals and assists, along with occasional poor distributiion or decision-making leave him contributing far less.
He has great talent, world-class potential and maybe it was the signs of strong leadership characterisics that set off the frenzied press and fan perception of him.
More talent than most his age, not yet world-class, nor we he claim to be I would guess.

Will said...

Also hadn't he just come back from an injury? Or am I wrong.

ScotchEggsRule said...

He's just a bitter kraut. Who did Wilshere help beat Bayern 2-0 in Germany? Easy to rip on someone without using both sides of the argument. Who did Ramsey and Wilshere play off the park when we beat Barcelona 2-1 at the Grove? Xavi and Iniesta.....Wilshere doesn't create the hype, the media do, maybe big nose should consider his words more carefully before ripping on someone who doesn't deserve it. For the record, Arteta beat Michael Carrick in EVERY single stat playing as a DM/deep lying playmaker last season and is eligible to play for England, don't see big nose hyping Arteta?

Marc B said...

I'm an Arsenal fan and Wilshere is not world class, he is definitely overhyped. Wilshere was hyped up on how he used to play fearlessly and throw himself into tackles. The British fans like to see that but the lad is paying the price for that style of play. He's hardly played in two seasons so what is the world class assessment based on? Few games as a kid? As he matures, he is learning not to do that too often and is therefore looking more average by the day.

ScotchEggsRule said...

---Jack Wilshere is an average player at best at the moment. He does show some potential but he wouldn't get into the current Manure, Chelski, City or Liverpool sides--- Pull your head out of your arse son, you're embarressing yourself....

coliemac said...

Yeah was going to mention Bale in there also. There's a good few out there...George Weah....Dejan Savicevic...to name but a few...the international thing is a bit dodgy now. especially when they decide to hold tournaments in the likes of Qatar....I wouldn't last five mins in that heat.

Jamie England said...

he had an op during the summer, so he's still on the come back trail, finding his sharpeness and that burst of pace hes got...

E9 Gunner said...

I think Carrick is talented, but he only looked good at Man Utd and Spurs because he was their best midfielder. Put him in an Arsenal team with Cazorla and Ozil or Chelsea team with Oscar and Mata or Man City with Toure and Sliva or even a Liverpool team with Coutinho and Gerrard; he wouldn't get noticed, he wouldn't even get rated. I still think he's a good player, but just not world class.

Jamie England said...

Great comments, completely agree. :-)

AndyYNWA said...

I thing the scotch eggs have gone to your head....SON.
Read my post again and have a little think.

coliemac said...

Carrick is always the player targeted by decent opposition, when put under severe pressure he misplaces passes like no man...it's easy to pass a ball when no one is near you. Carrick flatters to deceive to be honest.

Jay Wright said...

Hamann won a lot of trophies at Bayern and Liverpool, so your ignorance of his achievements says more about your knowledge than his quality.


Arsenal would benefit far more from having a young Hamann in the team now, than Wilshere anyway!

Jamie England said...

Can't agree with that, he'd walk into united's MF, and Liverpools for that matter. Cleverly keeping Jack out hmmmm..!? And as for Liverpool, Henderson gunna keep Jack out.. don't think so, think you need to re evaluate son...

Niall O'Reilly said...

I had to laugh at Piers Morgan having his say about Hamann, Hamann can show him a CL winners medal, that'd put him in his place, I genuinely despise Morgan but that's besides the point. Wilshere is a decent player who has the potential to become a top player but that's all he is right now.

David said...

Bitter old Haman. Not sure why he thinks his opinion on anything and everything is either a) wanted b) enlightening

Jay Wright said...

Isn't the argument supposed to be that good players will find it even easier to shine with better players around them to take some of the pressure away??

Jay Wright said...

When you're picking Ashley Young and Sterling, despite the fact they've barely played all season, it says more about the manager than the talent pool in the league imo.


England could be sooo much better if the manager's finally opened their eyes and picked teams, rather than almost exclusively a collection of players from the top 5 or 6 teams in the league

Jaygee said...

It shows how people discriminably attack
players needlessly, where was he when Thierry Henry played to the world class status??? What did he get because any award didn’t he desrve one?,or is it that he was from Arsenal. One way you turn this way to suit your feelings and then turn that way. What does that help?

If a player has the potential of being a world class he has it!!!!! Jay Jay
Okocha had it (didn't he??) and he was never rewarded accordingly. Where
were you with your criteria of a world class classification???? He is only 21
and considering his long layoff due to injury what performance would you expect
from him. "Hamann be realistic and constructive other than the prophecy you are pursuing."

Niall O'Reilly said...

He says it how it is, He's not a yes man. He's a refreshing change from the majority of the media/pundits who say what people want to hear...

Jay Wright said...

I'd definitely agree with Hamann - Wilshere is clearly a gifted player, but all this saviour of English football stuff is well over the top.


At Arsenal, Cazorla and Ozil are both much better No. 10's than he is, and I'd much rather have Coutinho in that position at Liverpool.

Togonator said...

Firstly, I'm a hardcore gunner. The only thing world class about Wilshire is the hype. Heck, i'd even say he's a liability to the team. He doesnt provide defensive solidity to the team, he rarely gets an assist, he doesnt score enough goals... infact, other then run around like a headless chicken and make the odd chest thumping tackles and getting booked for it, why the hell is he an automatic first 11!!!? Ramsey(for the last 4 games, he was shit last season) does everything better anyway.


and screw potential. I'm a gunner remember.. we've been a team of potentials for the last gazillion years. Only thing that he has going for him is his passport!

Andy said...

Its official ScotchEggsRule is a cock!!

Alanable said...

I agree completely that he is not world class. He is a very promising player, who probably has had difficulty showing his true quality due to injury. I look to Fabio Aurelio's time at Liverpool, I believe he was potentially one of our most capable Lbs in recent years but due to limited playing time he could not consistently show his true abilities, therefore he can not be considered one of our best players in recent years. I know there is a huge difference in circumstances of the two but my point is if you can't perform consistently you cannot be considered one of the best around.


I think Gerrard's praise for Wilshire is an attempt to encourage him to become one of the best in the game. Unfortunately I think it would be better to highlight his potential and follow it by stating the need to keep his head down and continue improving all aspects of his game.

E9 Gunner said...

Wilshere is 21yrs old, still developing and ain't fully fit. No one here in saying he's world class. Carrick fully fit at 21 was not as good fully Wilshere.

King Kong said...

English players are over hyped. Why is Gerrard and Lampard still in England team when Wilshere is around?

Jay Wright said...

What did Hamann actually say that displayed any sort of bitterness??

Bruno Fotis said...

as a Liverpool supporter I would defiantly loveWilshere playing for the reds.Remember he is young has plenty of tricks and wil only get better.

Alanable said...

In addition; I love Hamman's bluntness when it comes to football matters, he really says what he is thinking and does not hold back and his delivery usually has a slight rudeness that pundits and former players usually hold back on. YNWA Didi!!

wondrinfree said...

Liverpool seems to have a real bee in their bonnet about Arsenal at the moment.

Arsenal put a bid in for one of your players, you said no, that's the end of it. To waste your time telling the world that all Arsenal's players are now rubbish (even though they usually finish above Liverpool) makes you sound really insecure.

Seriously, shove a tampon in it guys.

Jack Wilshere is a very good prospect who, like Gerrard at that age, shows great promise and superior talent but is clearly not the finished article - yet. Really is that so difficult?

Togonator said...

Manure's midfield is a mess. Liverpool's arent looking too clever either.. Average Jack still gets the nod over Cleverly, the equally useless Carrick, Joe Allen or Hendo..!!!

Jay Wright said...

It's going to be interesting to see what happens at Arsenal now - Cazorla was already a superior No. 10 to Wilshere imo, but shifted about to accommodate him anyway, and now another better AM has joined in Ozil.


With Ramsey finally beginning to look like the wonder-kid that was emerging a few years ago, and Arteta a key part of the team (when available) at the base of the midfield, at least one very good midfielder is going to be seeing a lot of bench time, or unbalancing the team.


Not a bad problem to have, but interesting nevertheless...

Jay Wright said...

"Jack Wilshere is a very good prospect who... shows great promise and superior talent but is clearly not the finished article - yet."


You've just paraphrased what Hamann is quoted as saying?!

Alanable said...

The article and most the comments mention that he is a very good prospect and I don't think it is an insult to Arsenal but more so a criticism of England's players insistence of over praising players before they have actually reached their full potential. Look at Raheem Sterling, he was getting praise heaped on him before he had barely kicked a ball in the premier league and now his development has(imho) suffered a setback as a result.

islesfan74 said...

In fairness to Stevie, he said that Wilshere has the "potential".


He didn't call him one of the world's best.

Jay Wright said...

Carrick was top quality at Spurs imo, and has toned his game down considerably since joining Man U.


But the point is that your argument above was kinda backwards though - you're saying that a good player will look better if he's surrounded by bad players??

Redburns said...

His stats are extremely poor for a supposedly creative player. On average over a season he produces less than 5 assists and less than 2 goals. I know he's young and has the potential to be a very good player but he's a very very long way from being a top player

bobbygraham said...

Gerrard thinks Wilshire is top class, I prefer his judgement.

RVP said...

To be fair Young only played 20 minutes, he's not at fault for the other 70 minutes that were just as bad. Gerrard and Lampard together? Yawn! Both good players, but I'd prefer them not to play together, never works out. If anything I'd prefer someone else to partner Gerrard in the midfield. And James Milner? Soon as I saw his name, I knew they were going for a bore draw. It should be about trying to beat teams, not about getting the minimum amount of points to scrape through.

mk said...

He is only 21 and has spent most of his time out injured.. If not for the injuries then he probably would be considered actually 'world class' by now, (without the preface of potential that almost everyone adds when describing him, but posts like this and hamann ignore for some reason) instead he is a still getting back to fitness and is a bit out of form and the criticism is unwarrented.


Anyway many players are 'world class' despite not being able to do anything with their national team, even a world class player looks ordinary in a team with no proper organisation or tactics.

Jay Wright said...

Tbh, Hamann displayed greater smarts on the pitch than Gerrard.

And I don't know anything about either's off pitch intelligence, but I do know that Gerrard compared Joe Cole to Messi, upon his signing for LFC

... :-/

will said...

He will be world class unlike the ones that knock him

Reddy said...

If Hodgson had 11 Jack Wilshere's in the team they will win the 'World Cup', (not), another highly overated, over-hyped british player, who is at best average, and that is why England will not win a world cup, for another 100 years, with the present mentality!.

Enrik said...

England played like Liverpool does in the 2nd half.. But this was when they did not have a lead. England needs mobility in the midfield, they only need to start gerrard or carrick as Deep Lying playmakers, the rest should be athletic and technical players (Wilshere, Henderson, etc..).

more nee said...

Harsh statement there by Hamman, but yeah I agree. Wilshere not world class but he had that talent to be in that class. He should not take it to hard, learn from it and shut hamman mouth just the way messi does to Pele :-) . good day

red33 said...

Gerrard also mention bout joe cole is like messi and so's carroll,they always hype about their own as WORLD CLASS but in reality nobody outside of britain say that. They really do have dinosaur skin don't they.

Chris said...

Talk about going after an easy target! Jack is not fully fit, played only half his last game due to illness, and gets slated for a crap performance. He shouldn't have been playing anyway. The manager should take responsibility, not the player.

If he wasn't expected to carry the whole team, then perhaps him having an off-day wouldn't have been such a big deal?
It's all to be expected though; the only time an Arsenal player is praised in the media is so they can tear him down 5 minutes later.

I certainly didn't expect anything different from Liverpool fans, still deeply insulted that Arsenal had the temerity to dare to bid for one of their players. When you have good players, it's only to be expected.
Think of it as a compliment; a compliment which, tbf, you don't get paid very often.

Enrik said...

Wilshere wouldn't help Liverpool like Henderson does, Henderson's more athletic, more physical, although Hendog doesn't have the creativity of Wilshere, but Coutinho has that covered for LFC

red33 said...

If JW is so call world class what's make of coutinho? and he is not even in the brazilian team.

BWalt said...

Bravo jaimie, an excellent article and I 100% agree with you! If he wasn't English and the media being so obsessed about pinning their hopes on certain players, he would never, at this stage of his career, be mentioned in the 'world class' bracket! He has missed a lot of football being out most of last season and I think poss like Rodgers with sterling he could do with being brought back into the setup slowly, I.e. in friendlies not important qualifiers! I think wenger at times is of the same opinion but for me Hodgson like most other England managers is influenced by the media. If he would of played carrick with the same result the media would point the finger and ask why he didn't play Wilshere

red33 said...

The british media and people are more likely to be WORLD CLASS BS.

Ian Harvey said...

As an Arsenal fan I think Wilshere has regressed a bit since his injury and like Ramsey will need to work hard. For example, against Barcelona a couple of years back he was incredible, he and Cesc outplayed Xavi and Iniesta. That was one of many top class performance. Since the injury we've seen only glimpses. For me Gerrard and Carrick are the two key picks in midfield. Lampard was the worst player on the pitch again last night, giving the ball away and disappearing for large parts. Wilshere will get there for England and Arsenal, but it may take a few months yet. Carrick, Gerrard and Wilshere could be a great midfield for the World Cup.

FdotM said...

I agree with Hamann, and the same can be applied to many other players out there. Regarding Wilshere, he clearly has the ability and the potential to real excel in hi position but calling him "world class" is going to far IMO.

Players I consider world class at the moment?

Ronaldo, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Schweinsteiger, Thiago Silva, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Falcao, Van Persie, Vidal, Neymar, Valdes etc... All of these players have a major role for their team and their performances carry their team domestically, European (equiv) competetions and internationally.

Wilshere has not yet had a dramatic effect on his team. Mainly due to injures and of course he needs time to settle after an injury.
Same with Agger, no doubt a talented player but world class? I don't think so.

Liverpool players I consider world class at the moment:
Suarez and maybe, maybe Gerrard.

I do think (IMO) that is possible for a player to reach world class like status without maybe having a substancial effect in a World cup or Euro or Copa America etc... someone like Bale who I don't consider World Class *yet* but who certainly is on his way may never play in a World Cup or Euros. If he starts pulling out some amazing performances (together with goals and assists) for Wales even if they don't qualify than to me that is good enough.

I find it annoying that Piers Morgan could not have a civil discussion without been rude to Hamman. He basically dismissed Hamanns opinion on the basis that he did not deem Hamann to have been a world class player himself therefore his opinion is not valid...what silly
reasoning.

All IMO.

godge said...

Using the definition of world-class, expounded here, then as a Gooner I would agree that Wilshere is not World Class. But, using that definition I find it hard to think of many who are. Messi and Best fail the definition having not done anything at international level. Bale has not achieved any of the three criteria, neither has Suarez. As this is a Liverpool site, there is nobody who has achieved any of the three criteria (Gerrard's European success is so far in the past that it cannot be counted.

Of the players currently in the Premier League, there are none at first glance who meet the definition: Ozil, Cazorla, Podolski, Mata, Rooney, Yaya Toure, have met one or more of the criteria but not all. Ironically it is Torres who comes closest, won two European club trophies, international trophies, golden boot at the Euros, third place in the Ballon d'Or but is yet to pick up a domestic trophy other than a FA Cup and a Segunda Division.

So, when you look at the criteria, and you see it only throws up Torres as the closest thing to a world class player in the Premiership, you have to say that there is something wrong.

Going back in time, John Jensen, with his Euro 92 medal, his League and F.A. Cup medals, his European Cup-Winners Cup medals and his numerous Danish Superliga medals ranks higher than any of the current Arsenal or Liverpool teams. Is that right? I don't think so which makes this all very silly despite its claims to be objective.

FdotM said...

Do you think Wilshere's regression is due to his injuries? I think so.

godge said...

Gerrard is close to being finished. At his peak he was better than Wilshere is now but Wilshere is only 21 and has the potential to be twice as good as Gerrard or to float along at his current level, not much better or worse than the current Gerrard

FdotM said...

I nearly died when he said that. Could not believe it.

godge said...

Your list doesn't stand up to the criteria on this site.


Van Persie has done nothing at European Club or International level, Messi has failed on the international state, Falcao? Seriously, winning a few Portuguese trophies? Valdes is second choice for Spain, couldn't be considered world class.


Bale has had one consistent good season for Spurs, we will see how he gets on in the goldfish bowl.

AndyYNWA said...

Twice as good as Gerrard??? Twice???
I doubt that very much. As far as Gerrard being close to finished he still has 3 or 4 seasons left in him all be it in a slightly deeper roll. Also I think Wilshere will be hounded by injury problems.

FdotM said...

I think when JK talks about internationals he included qualifiers also. Messi, Ronaldo etc...do really well in qualifiers on top of their performances for their respective clubs.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to accurately analyse who is World class or not.

If I'm a player who play for San Marino, yet I play for Barca and win everything at domestic and european level (La liga, Copa del Rey, CL) but as we know San Marino are not blessed with good players so it's unlikely they will ever qualify for a WC or Euros..does that make that players not WC even if they lose all their games?

IMO it does not but hey it's just my opinion.
Currently, neither Gerrard or Wilshere as WC.

red33 said...

Maybe what they're trying to say is JW is a world class injuries prone Lol..

FdotM said...

Oh I know, that was my personal opinion. All the players mentioned have an impact internationally during qualifiers, not necessarily in the actual WC, Euros, Copa America.
Ronaldo and Messi have not dominated a world cup or Euro/Copa America like Zidane but they are World Class.
So I think it's quite hard to create a perfect criteria.
Valdes may be 2nd choice but you cannot deny the amount of trophies is won and his part in them, once again the criteria is hard to determine.
Falcao done well in Portugal winning a bunch of trophies and also in Spain (Europa league, 3rd top scorer etc...) his ability cannot be denied, furthermore he is the main man for Columbia and scored a bunch for them.
Bale...he has the potential, only time will tell.

FdotM said...

Why is he bitter? Because he has an opinion? Your just saying that because clealy you don't agree.
SMH

E9 Gunner said...

Its not a backward argument. If you are a star player of a team you are gonna get noticed, if you are surround by other stars you get noticed less. Come on it's a simple fact, I ain't even gonna argue. But if you want to continue I can easily list a lot of good players who look great or world class surrounded by average players, but when surrounded by world class players they look average.

Dave said...

Are you saying wilshere can be twice as good as gerrard in his prime? Please go and watch Gerrard's videos on YouTube and stop exaggerating. If he can be as good as gerrard it would already be a blessing, not twice! What has wilshere won of done that Stevie hasn't apart from the league? After wilshere has scored in finals of CL, FA cup, league cup and UEFA cup(I think) and won them all then tell me he is as good as Stevie.

Dave said...

If messi was in fleet wood towns he would just get the ball from midfield and dribble his way through and shoot from outside the box and score. If he gets fouled outside the box he can just score from a free kick. I'm quite sure that's how good he is.

Dave said...

Bale is gonna play on the big stage now so I think he should be able to prove himself to be world class.

RVP said...

Useless Carrick?? Years ago I would of agreed, but all you have to do is look at his stats, stats dont lie.

El_Uruguayo said...

It's only natural to hype up your countrymen especially in the context of international competition - every one does it british or not.
What is hard to understand is the selection process for the National team - it's not merit based, but a popularity contest. Sterling gets the call because they wanted to thwart a possible move to play for Jamaica, but he's not ready. He also played the U21 Euro, at only 18 he should have been on the U20 WC squad - at least have the opportunity to play along side others of his age to determine how he compares to his cohort, but no, to the bench for the senior squad - makes no sense.
With Rooney, Sturridge, and Welbeck out, didn't even call up another striker. No one else worth a try? Hell, I'd try Frazier Campbell - he deserves to be on the team as much as Sterling, scored 2 goals against MC in one game - As many as Sterling, and twice as many as Welbeck scored last season.
But capricious managers will be capricious managers - team mates will have to lay praise on each other - it's patriotism.

Jay Wright said...

Sterling didn't play at all - my point isn't about any individual's contribution on the day, it's about England manager's continued choice to artificially reduce the English talent pool and then bemoan the lack of quality options in the Premier League.


Young & Sterling are just the two most obvious examples of players that have been picked for the England squad purely because of who they play for, rather than what they've done on the pitch

rizalb12 b said...

Is the article writer or Hamann is STUPID, why do you want to give a ruckus and berate over Jack whether he world class or not.
WHAT IS JACK FAULT ?

Have Jack - HE HIMSELF CALL HIMSELF A WORLD CLASS = NO - provided if Jack himself had boasted that he is world class then I would also want to berate him but this is not the case.



Plus what with the SMI criteria is....... if that is the only things that you look for then you are ..... :) but I do want to slate you.

Do you know what is the criteria for SOUR GRAPE and heart that is fill with jealousy and hatred ?

Jack is still young -21 years old and if one day he become world class then be it if not then not plus can you tell me when do at what age that these player become become great player and having the reputation - Drogba, Cantona, RVP, Falcao etc the list goes on and on and on.


one word for you SOUR GRAPE.

El_Uruguayo said...

If he can get over his foot, groin, and ass problems - Lucky if he gets 10 goals this season.

rizalb12 b said...

If you think that having the medal would give you the right to say what you say is right then you are WRONG if so then Niall you have to agree with every word regarding football from Thierry Henry, Xavi, and etc because they almost all type of medal. Ooooh man why most human have problem in making judging and making perspective.

RVP said...

Well Young was doing good for United before he got injured, now it seems a very long time ago that he was playing with confidence. But i'm a United fan, so i live in hope that one of my own will shine again. I cant speak for Sterling..

But I 99% agree with you

Niall O'Reilly said...

What are you on about? I was referring to Morgan saying Wilshere is a better player NOW then Hamann ever was and that's simply not true. Go read that comment again...

Johnny Starrs said...

Suarez has achieved it at International level, check it out again, then edit your post.

Scoobsie23 said...

Jack would keep Allen out of the England team even if he had a broken leg. Why can I be so certain? Allen is WELSH you numpty!

Scoobsie23 said...

No one is denying that Wilshere is an emerging talent and *may* go on to be a very good, dare I say it 'world class' midfielder. However, due to injuries and selection he has not yet demonstrated that he has the consistency to be considered a top pick. He might continue his development and blossom, or he might implode. No one knows for certain. When you consider Liverpools current midfield and the way they set up, I'm not sure he would be an automatic 1st choice. Liverpool play a 4-2-3-1 (usually) with Gerrard and Lucas as the two holding players and will have Moses, Coutinho and Sturridge as the attacking three behind Suarez. If we play a 4-3-3 then it would be Lucas behind Gerrard and Coutinho. I don't see Wilshere as a winger and I don't see him displacing Gerrard or Coutinho any time soon or having the game to replace Lucas. But thats not to say he won't in the future.

Scoobsie23 said...

I'd agree that Stevie is in the twighlight of his career and does not play with quite the same intensity as he did in years gone by. I would also argue that he is still probably England's best midfielder, and that's probably why he's the Captain. Wilshere is young and has talent and may be that *go to* player in the future.... but he ain't there yet.



I agree with Kanwar, in that the press have over hyped the youngster and as such non-Arsenal fans are almost expecting Zidane like performances, which they're not going to get. Back off the player and let him develop. If he emerges as the next best thing.... great.

OriginalChan said...

Stats or no stats, criteria or no criteria, Wilshere is not world class but he has a lot of potential, which could be hampered by injuries.

OriginalChan said...

Aye, the Uruguayans have done that well with Suarez eh ;)

El_Uruguayo said...

10 goals in 13 qualifiers is not undeserved praise.

OriginalChan said...

Some of it is deserved, when it comes to the passionate praise/defending of Suarez by his compatriots and some of is just over-the-top hype/simply disagreeable.

Redburns said...

Why do people always say this? He compared joe coles skills on the training pitch to messi he didn't say he was a better player! The way the media twist things and everyone believes it makes me laugh sometimes

Roythered said...

No, not world class, good player but highly over rated, but he's not the only English player to be. Truth is England don't have a world class player, not now Gerrard is past his best.

El_Uruguayo said...

Whatever - we dont have a team that plays in CL, a very big league, our team is the national team - everyone is a fan. If he were englands top striker Im sure sentiment would be the same on your shores.

Eric said...

Gerrard was a much more mature player at 21 than Wilshere was. You've seen the possibilities first hand with Fabregas. Wilshere simply isn't in that class that Gerrard and Fabregas were and still are. Could he ever be? Doubt it but if he is, he better start hurrying because time is catching up with him. Right now, he looks more like a Jamie Redknapp than a Stevie G to me.

Eric said...

Haha won two UEFA cups and a CL. Let's see if Wilshere can say that 15 years from now.

tesoman said...

Honestly haven't watched a lot of Arsenal games to make a thoughtful comment on Wilshire but I'm glad you did because, from what I've read, you seem like one of a very few on here who actually knows what they're talking about.

Darren said...

I would agree with this. Jack is a work in progress, a young prospect, a hope for the future. To be world class you have to take the mantle, not promise it.



On the plus side he has a great touch, good vision and can pick a pass. His general passing game and ball control is good, and his break play is as good as you will see. He loses the ball all too often for me with his overly optimistic dribbling. It might be exciting to watch when it works but if you lose the ball it is ineffective, a waste of energy and increases his risk of injury.



I would like to see him get a few games under his belt at full fitness, then we can see what he is capable of achieving. He has spent so much time with injuries and in recovery that it hampers his development as a player.



Jack has all the hallmarks but he has to be clever about his play and mitigate his injuries. I fell he can be too kamikaze at times and I would hate to see his career ruined by injury because he is so full of promise, but how do you protect someone from himself?



No point talking about world class promise. I would like to see him achieve world class status, and a few good performances in an Arsenal shirt before picking up an injury doesn't cut it.

Jack needs to be consistent at the upper echelons of the game, not watching from the stands.

Darren said...

That is what they mean when they talk of over hyping a player.


You are comparing a young promise with one of the most talented and capped England Midfielders of all time.


You assume the young whippersnapper has earned his stripes when he has not. At the moment he has not yet proven to be the best at Arsenal, let alone the Premier league or the world.



Promise is nothing without fruition.

mr ramsey said...

SMI OAL LOL. Best Giggs Dalglish all world class respective national team very poor. 1970 would Brazil have won it without Pele, very likely. Wilshire is too one footed (left). I cant remember any world class one footed midfielders and that just one issue, he also sparkles early then fades when the good teams close him down. He will not improve even to very good player in my opinion unless he is found a more accomodating position like outside left, but today player are expected to be two footed. Rooney is very right footed but does use his other foot. Wilshire is left left left then more left and has no brain just like Walcott. They will never ever learn to be brainy players unlike Best Giggs Dalglish Pele and Rooney.

Hisham said...

So far the entire england team including reserve and substitute players have been touted as world class due to one good performance, the odd good pass or tackle, a good headed goal or even a fluke assist! Maybe we need to come up with a new phrase for the best players otherwise people will get confused. I mean, xavi and wilshere in the same category is really a joke

Will said...

Hence why I said "Yet". Blae has all the attributes to become world class, and I think he may very well fulfil that at Madrid.

timbo said...

Hamann won every final he played in; all 13 of them. But yeah, he was just average mate.

2Jay said...

Initially, Wilshere was impressive but he seems to have faded out. Its a pity because he looked really good. Definitely not world class yet.

Ed said...

Bit late here I know however, I find the comparison between Gerrard and Wilshere laughable...Gerrard had one of his best seasons last year.


I realise goals and assists aren't everything, however they are something: Gerrard 9 goals 9 assists in the PL last season in 36 appearances in the holding role.


Wilshere 6 assists 0 goals in 25 apps in a more attacking midfield role.


Gerrard was made captain of England. England may not be the best in the world, however we are pretty damned good.


I am not arguing that Wilshere doesn't show potential, and couldn't be great, but he isn't great yet.


Roy picks Wilshere because we lack an attacking midfield force, Gerrard, Lamps, and Carrick all play deeper roles for their clubs, Carrick especially.


Wilshere had a better 2012-13 than Cleverley so it makes sense that England pick him, because who else do we pick....If it were me and I had a fit Rooney he would be playing in the CAM role for England, even without Rooney I might have picked *shock horror* Kevin Nolan over Wilshere.


No one was any good for England or the Ukraine, but Cahill and Gerrard were the best players on the pitch for England. People think Gerrard is finished when in reality 2012-13 was nearly as good as 2008-09 which was his best season.


The holding role is just less glam, hence why Carrick will always be underrated. Newcastle underrated him, England underrated him SAF didn't and won PL titles and Champs leagues, what has Arsene won with Jack?

OriginalChan said...

Not world class but definitely a classy player.

OriginalChan said...

When you play as regularly as Carrick has done in a side that has won league titles and reached three CL finals, he has a legitimate claim to being one of the best central midfielders in the league, regardless of who he is surrounded by.

OriginalChan said...

'he wouldn't get noticed, he wouldn't even get rated'


He only got noticed within the last two seasons

OriginalChan said...

Everyone says Man United's entire midfield is rubbish and yet in Carrick's time at the club, they have won league titles and reached 3 CL finals (losing two of them against the best side football has seen at least since Saachi's Milan). Surely must have come up against decent sides during that time.

Jay Wright said...

I didn't actually say that Gerrard said Joe Cole was a better player than Messi - I said that he made a comparison between the two (when talking about skill levels, rather than overall footballing ability), which even you have acknowledged that he clearly did.


No twisting of words required - the statement is clearly ridiculous, no matter how you want to look at it

luther said...

wilshire is a good player but thats it, dosent score enough goals and at the same age is miles behind gerrard. typical of modern english players, breaks into the 1st team signes a big contract gets a call up to senior eng team coz eng caps are given away and think they have made it and get rapped up in their ego and grossely overestimate their talent. wilshire is a poser unlike gerrard who is the real deal. wilshire has proven hes a sheep by getting those meaningless tatoo's footballers get these days

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