1/11/2013 06:12:00 pm

Anfield farce: 'Overjoyed' Sahin reacts to BD move. Another LFC transfer fiasco?

Brendan Rodgers' effectiveness in the transfer market was brought into question today as Liverpool dispensed with the services of Turkish midfielder Nuri Sahin after only six months at the club.

A statement on the club's official website confirmed the news:

"Liverpool Football Club have confirmed an agreement has been reached with Real Madrid allowing midfielder Nuri Sahin's loan deal to end.

"He can join another club with immediate effect. Everybody at LFC would like to wish Nuri all the best for the future".


Sahin has returned to Borussia Dortmund, and after the move went through, the midfielder revealed his joy at being back in the Bundesliga. He told Reporters:

"I'm overjoyed to be back. This is my my home. I'm looking forward to the team, and to the fans. I never broke contact with players or officials at Dortmund. I'll work really hard. I didn't play much [at Liverpool], but I'm still a good player"

Dortmund CEO Hans-Joachim Watzke added:

"We always said the doors would be open for him in case he had a deep desire to return to play for us. Nuri we expressed this desire in last few past and we talked about it. It's great to seen a player of such great quality back in our team"

In my view, this is an embarrassing transfer faux pas for Liverpool:

* Dortmund are reigning Bundesliga Champions. Sahin is good enough for them, but not good enough for a team that finished 8th last season, and is in the same position again this season?

* All the money wasted on Sahin's wages and loan fee could've gone towards a permanent transfer (for a different player) in the summer, or it could've been saved for this January transfer window.

* What does it say about Liverpool's tactical approach that someone of Sahin's quality - a cultured player who advocates a quick pass and move game - isn't able to fit in?

* Why did Rodgers acquire Sahin in the first place if he wasn't going to play him in his best and most productive position?

* Rodgers confirmed in August that he persuaded Sahin to reject Arsenal and sign for Liverpool. To go that much effort suggests he had a plan for the player, but in practice, there didn't seem to be any kind plan on how best to use him.

Fans argue that Sahin isn't strong enough/quick enough for the Premier League, but the plain fact is:

* Liverpool lost only once in his thirteen appearances for the club.
* Overall record: W6/D6/L1
* The only game was his debut against Arsenal (!)

How exactly do these stats reconcile with the notion that Sahin couldn't hack it in the Premier League? Anyway, what's done is done. Sahin, if used properly, could've been an effective player for Liverpool, but ultimately, it has to go down as a total waste of money and talent.

Jaimie Kanwar






102 Comments :

Red Raider said...

Evey buy/loan is a gamble and all managers have their good and bad buys and so and I think it's too early to judge Rodgers. I wonder if the fact he has gone no might free up funds for another signing or loan deal?

L4red said...

Spot on but the bit about keeping in contact with dortmund raises questions about his commitment, the loan was all wrong from the beginning with no ptospect of a permanent deal in place, lfc still leaking money to no good cause & like you say, serious questions over BR on this one

Jaimie K said...

Yes, you're right, but add Sahin to Assaidi, whio is clearly not in Rodgers' plans, and Borini, who didn't look the business before his injury, and his transfer record doesn't look that great. I like Allen though - very good player, but the question is, did LFC really need him, and could that £15m have been spent better elsewhere?

Kresha said...

Yeah really embarrasing move, didnt give the guy even a one single season and he came on loan, we gave carroll one and half season who was a massive flop of 35m but we dont give a year to sahin? Dont really understand whats wrong with rodgers, theres another victim there assaidi why does rodgers treat so bad the new boys, is he gonna do the same with sturridge now, does he expect everyone to be a new gerrard or new suarez?

Tuomas Pukki said...

hugely dissappointed. wouldnt be surprised if Suarez is loaded off summer for the highest bidder. if that happens im jumping in to OFF WITH FSG bandwagon.

FdotM said...

WOW what a waste! What is the point! It's not like got the loan for free, we had to pay a loan fee plus more wages than he was earning!

Only positive thing is that it frees up more wage budget but for goodness sake! Sahin is a class player who was never fully utilized Maybe BR wants for his own players to develop, I don't know.

I expect 2 signings now since Cole's and Sahin's wages are gone.

anteater said...

Sure, with the advantage of hindsight we have wasted money on him. At the time we've signed him, though, I probably wasn't the only one who thought he was a good signing, for a number of reasons.

- Henderson hasn't really set the world on fire last season. He's clearly finding his feet now, but many wouldn't have expected it.

- Gerrard has been injured quite a bit in the past two years. Somehow he hasn't so far this season.

- Lucas was just recovering from injury in the summer.

Therefore we looked a bit weak in midfield.

Sahin has looked a very good player in the past, but wasn't he injured quite a bit last season too? Anyway, when he has played for us in a deeper role, he looked out of place in many ways. While his passing was tidy, he looked weak when it came to tackling, at times a bit slow in reacting and his general positioning was at least a bit questionable. He looked better to me a bit further up the pitch, but then made public his discontent at being played out of position. Thought this was the final nail in his coffin. I very much prefer Henderson's attitude, which has been described as follows today on the official site: "Henderson had to wait three months for a Barclays Premier League start in
2012-13, but you won't find any rumblings of discontent from him in the
newspapers."


Now that Henderson has found some form, Lucas is back from another injury and Gerrard free of injuries, I'd rather have us play our own players instead of getting Sahin up to pace and raising his value for Real Madrid.


So, yes, money wasted, but had we offloaded Henderson in the summer, we'd have been short in midfield.

anteater said...

And what after a year of getting him match fit? Real Madrid selling him to the highest bidder, which might have been another club than us.

Assaidi looked full of tricks in a few games against possibly not so strong opposition early on. I liked the look of him. His later (rare) appearances weren't exactly overwhelming. He hasn't had a sniff in recently and I, too, find that a bit questionable, but we actually don't know what is going on at Melwood every day. All we can do is speculate. You speculate that he is treated badly by Rodgers, I speculate that the coaching staff find that he is lacking in some areas of his play, possibly tactical awareness. There may even be attitude problems. Anyway, I would not write him off at all.

emiretuse said...

Fair point Jamie on Allen. But the answer to your question did LFC really need him the answer is no. A better question would be did Rodgers need Allen and the answer would be a resounding yes. BR took a look at all our midfielders and decided none of them can do exactly what Allen does (the right decision in my opinion)

anteater said...

My first thought would actually be the same, but what could we do if he handed in a transfer request?

Bob said...

It's clearly a disappointing outcome and with hindsight a bit of a waste of money but describing a loan deal that didn't work out as a transfer fiasco may be pushing it a bit.

Jaimie K said...

Great point. BR needed Allen to implement his football philosophy, but if he'd spent, say £2m on Michu, and the other £13m on a quality attacking mid, I believe LFC would be higher in the league right now. I can see the difference in the style of play, but what personal impact has Allen really made? The club is still worse off for points now than at the same time last season.

Jaimie K said...

Good points. (P.S. Thanks for the email heads up earlier!)

redforlife said...

Exactly, Henderson was going to leave for Fulham last season but did not want to go then got his chance in the team and has shut most of his dictators up. Now Henderson is starting to add value towards his transfer fee so no point in getting rid of a player who is not going to have a hissy fit about where he plays. Henderson has even been used as a RB this season but did you hear him moan about that?


If we were planing on making the Sahin deal permanent then we would have had that as one of the conditions in the loan agreement. It was a loan and has not worked out. It was not like he was going to get game time at Madrid anyway so does not matter if he went now or at the end of the season. Now we do not have to pay his wage and could possibly make room for more improvements in our attack or even in defence.

Pav said...

Quality player, just didn't work. It happens, good luck to him!

anteater said...

I'm not entirely bad then, after all. :-)

Picachoo said...

Keep reading on twitter this deal has been done to free up funds for a permanent deal for either alonso or sneijder. If this is the case personally I don't mind, if we get to jan 31st and we have another window with more going out than coming in it'll take more than a letter from JWH to convince me FSG are the right owners'

billy the cat said...

no great loss. freed up money cos he would have been on big wages.so now sign ince .we are thin on the ground and need to sign a couple of players . now got rid of cole ,sahin, and hopefully coates. we are shiftin the dead wood out.but the next signings have got to work.cant be putting up with another couple of crap signing there have been to many!

redforlife said...

So why did UTD, City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs not sign Michu?

Big B said...

Have to say I admire BRs courage to allow him to go. He brought him to the club because he looked very classy and was a valuable player to Dortmund. But apart from one game I think he looked well out of his depth. He took too long on the ball and looked pretty lightweight.
I argued with my Liverpool supporting friends about this. I was glad to see him subbed in his previous games because he made absolutely no positive contribution. You may argue that Hendo/Carroll/Downing are similar but I at least see a bit of fight in them (downing only recent).
He came..he didn't work out..cut him loose and wish him all the best.

anteater said...

This is the funniest typo I've seen in a while (please don't edit it). "...his dictators...". Or was it intentional. Put a smile on my face.

VermHat said...

You have to consider that we could have gotten Michu and Santi Cazorla (price wise) for the money we paid for Joe Allen.

As for implementing Rodgers' philosophy, I don't think there has been a sufficient change from last season's style to justify the fee on those grounds.

Don't get me wrong, I like Joe Allen, but the fact is that he wasn't the player we needed and furthermore, he doesn't even merit a place in the team right now if you ask me. He is a decent short passer, a decent dribbler but that isn't sufficient to overcome his lack of pace, strength, height or intelligent movement off the ball.

Rodgers alluded to him having a slight problem with his groin, so hopefully he'll give Henderson a (deserved) run in the side and give Allen some time to heal and he'll come back fresh.

He looked great when he first signed, (much more dynamic and metronomic) but then so did Downing.

Mark Wilkinson said...

fuck off u dick head

redforlife said...

Yeah i know i got the part wrong about him going to Fulham last season when it was actually at the start of the season. My bad. Keep on posting as you are one of the very few who actually make sense on this site! Where is mali341 nowadays? i guess it is because we have won 3 in a row :-0

Jaimie K said...

How is that a credible argument for anything? LFC wer strongly linked with Michu in the summer; the rest of those teams weren't. Utd, City, Chelsea and Spurs didn't go in for Podolski either. What does that prove?

lfcrednick2 said...

i for one didn see the passion in him and as a liverpool player u need that henderson is showing that and downing (imo still can be sold) is starting to get it sahin always seemed to lack confidence on the ball and wasn't solid enough for our league imo good call BR

redforlife said...

Allen's lack of pace etc? Did you ever see him play before he joined LFC. Obviously not. Against Sunderland Allen showed that he has plenty of pace, movement and intelligence when he is given freedom to join attacks or did you not see the Sunderland game either? He even scored a very good goal only for it to be disallowed..

Dale Derrivale said...

It was a loan deal that didn't work out, we didn't splash out £15-20 million on him and his performances meant it was sensible to let him move on, not anything like the drama you'd like us to believe really Jaimie.

In all seriousness why do you persist with this site whn your clearly not an LFC fan?

Do you really not have a life?

redforlife said...

That it is not possible to sign every player we are linked with.

VermHat said...

I don't think this will free up funds for a surprise move like Sneijder or Alonso like some are saying. I think Ince and maybe one other low profile player (seems like a centre-half is on the agenda based on speculation) will be brought in.

I had my say on Sahin the other day. It is a shame but it hasn't worked. I fear that we may have done an Aquilani- we've spent months getting him fit at premium price (if the figures for the loan fee and percentage of his wage we are contributing are true) so that someone else can benefit.

If we were willing to pay let's say half of Sahin's wage (that'll be around £50k a week) and pay his loan fee and keep Joe Cole on the books, wouldn't we have been better off keeping Aquilani on the books? I think we would have gotten more out of a player who has been our stand out player in pre-season two years running and I think (reading between the lines) wanted to play for the club rather than a good, honest player who lacks the intelligence or pace to be a top player and a player coming off the back of a year of relative inactivity.

Aqua's got 4 goals and 3 assists in 12 games. That is better than a goal/assist every other game. He has been a big part of them getting into the top 4 (injuries notwithstanding) and helping Fiorentina to their best form in years.


Ironic that only a few years ago we were playing each in Europe, both of us dropped out of our country's CL places and one of our rejects (someone who has been cast as a symbol of our downfall in Rafa's last season) could be about to deliver them back to the top table.

gilstrap said...

Agreed Billy get shut if there no good ....ship off coates and mr 120 grand a week reina .....and we will be getting somewhere

chris said...

At the end of the day, none of us actually know what goes on at Melwood. It's entirely possible Nuri agreed to an attacking role simply to secure his ticket out of Madrid. I'm in the camp that believe BR is making decisions based on a knowledge of the team (the kind you get when you MANAGE LFC) and not bootleg Mail articles like the rest of us. Good luck, Nuri. It's a shame it didn't work out.

gilstrap said...

Im pretty sure suarez will see where this season takes us ...and decide his options if he goes he goes

gilstrap said...

dream on spud it aint happening

Siavash said...

Please don't tell me he was not suited to the premier league
When you are the bundesliga player of the year it means surely you could at least get into the premier league team of the year
Terrible decision by a fantastic manger
Disappointed by Brendan

Aidan80 said...

It seems strange that so many mourn the loss of a player that its clear wasn't right for LFC at the moment. Where exactly do people see him playing. In front of the back 4? no chance to slow and lightweight. He is suited to european football.BR made an error. LFC are in a tricky position transfer wise the market for players that we want and that want to come to use is smaller than people might imagine, This season is about showing progress and the next 4 games are massive. Does anyone think that the departure of Sahin may help further improve hendersons confidence and at the end of the days he's our player not a loan signing.

redforlife said...

Are you kidding me? Keep Aquilani on the books? There is a reason why only Italian teams were after him. Not even Rafa played him when he was on the bench and fit enough to feature...


He went to Juventus and they got rid of him. Went to AC Milan and they didn't want him either. In September this year Aquilani was ruled out with an Achilles injury. Keeping a injury prone player who did not want to play in England from the start, ate up our wage bill and was nowhere worth the fee we paid for him was the reason we eventually had to make a massive loss on this waste. Good riddance.

islesfan74 said...

Completely agree. Once June hit, what kind of return were we going to see? The problem is that we put ourselves in a position for the loan, but no guarantee for a permanent move. I'd rather play a guy who is here for the long haul and develop him. The only reason why Sahin should be playing over a young player like Henderson is if Sahin is making the team exponentially better at the present moment.


As someone brought up elsewhere, we did only lose one time in his 13 appearances, but all that tells me is BR wasn't crediting him with being a major part of those results. It was obvious that he wasn't in the team's plans for the future. Might as well cut our losses when the opportunity presented itself.

like_A_256boss said...

I dont know why every1 is making a huge fuss about this transfer,first of all would any of you in there right senses give Sahin Lucas' role on Sunday.Ofcourse not and thats because he hasnt been that perfect,IMO i did play henderson over Sahin any day of the week,then why do you thnk he wasnt playing games at Real Madrid.Then speaking of which maib we can go for Modric on loan.hehehe

islesfan74 said...

I agree with you that Aqua should have been given more of an opportunity, especially last year. But keep in mind that he admitted himself that he wanted to go back to Italy. He just never adjusted to living in England, and the injuries certainly didn't help. It's too bad because he's showing that he does have the talent. But he needs to be in the right setting to display that talent.

Chris said...

Here here sir ...... That's all!

islesfan74 said...

Keep in mind that the team paid 3m for Cole to leave to help West Ham offset the difference he'd be making there. If I'm not mistaken, that was essentially the remainder of what we owed him if he had stayed. Addition by subtraction.


I wouldn't necessarily believe that they are going to turn around and reallocate his wages. I wish they would but unfortunately, it's not something that I would expect.


Sahin on the other hand is a different story. We should be trying to turn his wages into paying for someone else to come in and help this team progress for the long haul.

RedX said...

When things are not working out, it is wise to cut your losses immediately. All things considered, it's a blessing we did not buy him as I initially wished!

It's difficult for me to understand why a player with Sahin's quality couldn't come up to speed in both the English Premierleague as well as the Europa League. European football is arguably different from the EPL yet he still looked anonymous in most matches and maybe even more worryingly, never showed any signs of progress.

I think Rodgers had a look at the current squad and saw Sahin as a square peg trying to fit a round hole because in most matches Sahin looked lost. Given that we have good players covering that area, I think it was a good move to cut Sahin's loan deal short. Henderson has improved a lot since last year and the start of the season, showing more maturity and sensible riskiness in his play as well as adding useful weight to the team. (He appears to me like he has bulked up a bit and is a bit more explosive in his play). Maybe it's safe to assume to Rodgers wasn't expecting this and that's why he brought in Sahin.


Compared with Henderson, Sahin always looks a bit more refined (he's 2 years older and has been playing league football longer) but lacks the physical presence, mentality and intensity to his play, something which Henderson started bringing to his play and this could be the reason why LFC decided to cut short Sahin's loan. All things considered I think it was a wise decision, especially if he wasn't going to get a lot of game-time and we were not going to keep him.

islesfan74 said...

There's no telling that Cazorla would have come here because he was going to Arsenal who are seen as an annual contender for top 4.


Michu is an interesting example though. He went to a team that we should be considered better than, with a similar system.


In terms of Allen, I do think that we needed him because Rodgers wanted the support of having someone come in who knew his system in and out. In terms of his form falling off, Rodgers relied on him way too much and played him way too much. And I think the same could be said of Downing last year. Kenny played his signings week in and week out even though some were out of position (Henderson) or playing poorly over time (Downing, Adam, Carroll, etc.).


If Rodgers handles his midfield better in terms of playing time, especially now that Lucas is back, I think we will see the midfield perform better as a whole.

Peter Vincent said...

Totally agree.

brianmccann said...

Sometimes these situations arise, unfortunately it didn't work out yeah our record was ok with him in the team but if we isolate his individual performances he was struggling with the pace and easily pushed of the ball, there is no doubt he was skilful but physically he wasn't cutting it. I applaud LFC for having the strength of character to say enough is enough, the wages will now probably have to go towards the out of court settlement for Hicks and Gillet i read about today.

RedX said...

Cole would have cost us a total of around 7 ml. in wages if he had stayed until the end of his contract. By giving him a 3ml pay-off, we have saved around 4ml of future salaries. Similarly, LFC have cut their losses with Sahin.


I think this is what FSG have meant with "balancing the books" in their letter back in September 2012.

islesfan74 said...

I stand corrected on that then.


In that case, we should absolutely be looking to reinvest the money saved.

emiretuse said...

You're right about the fact that if we bought Michu and an attacking midfielder, our league position would probably be higher. but i have the feeling that the presence of Allen in the midfield helped the transition of the team from one system of play to the other (getting the team used to keeping possession), so i guess that's Allen's personal impact.

billy the cat said...

reina asap for me

Polo said...

At the end of the day the manager didn't see him fitting in with his plans. I would rather him terminate the loan deal than keep spending money on his wages every week. Some transfers work out and others don't. That's the nature of the business.
Judging by his failings at Real Madrid as well I would say this kid probably left Dortmound a season too early in his development. Yes I do know injuries had a part to play in that but you can't tell me these guys chased Modric all summer long knowing that Sahin was there if they thought he was really going to be the next big CM.
Wish the kid all the best and I hope he can find his feet again at Dortmound. Seems a nice enough kid and a tidy footballer. Sometimes though these things just don't work out.

lowey said...

to light weight, no big miss

Timothy Evans said...

Is Reina really on £120k per week!!!! I'm shocked

Ltown said...

The truth is, bar his game against West Brom, no one can remember another match where he actually played good. I love Sahin and also think he's a good player but it just didn't work so let's move on and try to bring in a better player. There's absolutely nothing embarrassing in that

VermHat said...

I don't think we would have been able to get Cazorla in, I was just using him as an indicator of value for money (that is why I wrote 'price wise' after his name in brackets.

nX3lemZ said...

Jamie I think u are overstating Sahin's importance in the squad. The fact of the matter is that PERMANENT players will always be more important then a LOAN deal. Our midfield players stepped up before Sahin could and IMO Rodgers did the right thing by playing them week in week out instead of Sahin.


As stated before when the loan deal of Sahin was done, he was needed to add depth to the squad. Its clear though now that he is not really needed. Let him go, certainly will not miss him.

VermHat said...

I saw Allen play several times last season, thanks. I was very impressed. I actually said then that we should buy him. I'm not questioning that he is capable. I'm questioning the fee we paid, when we paid it and his recent form.



He played very well against Sunderland but only after they were already beaten. If he played like that every game I would be delighted. The movement was there in that game and that may be a question of confidence.



I didn't say he was slow either I said he lacked pace, strength and height, which is to say that he isn't notable in any of those regards. You wouldn't look at Allen and say 'he adds genuine pace to our midfield' would you?


I think Allen will come good long-term, but you can't deny that he hasn't shown the form of his early Liverpool career or last season for Swansea in the last few months of his Liverpool career.


I don't think that paying £15mil for him then was the smartest move. Like with Carroll, I think we bought him at the height of his value.

gilstrap said...

rogers got giddy being in the bigtime......in short he signed allen without analyzing the players he had

george said...

"Transfer faux pas"? You seems to have worked yourself into a bit of a flap over this one. If Sahin was in good form and confident then he would have never been at Liverpool in the first place. He was a gamble. These decisions are not made with the benefit of hindsight. (Refer Michu!!!!!!) A player on loan who does not play is not much use to anyone. I think Liverpool are making excellent progress in removing some of the overpaid and overated dross that sits on the bench or randomly runs around at Melwood. Also it does send the message to the other players that Liverpool is no longer a professional footballers "drop-in" centre where you can loll about and get paid large amounts of cash. Remain calm!!!

VermHat said...

I don't believe in just discarding players. It makes no sense.


Too many people think that if someone has played a bit shit or had a bit of a tough time, you should get shut of him as soon as possible. That is guaranteed to lose you your investment.


If we kept him and he picked up a big injury, then so be it. My point is that if we had gotten rid of Joe Cole and not loaned Sahin, I think we could have gotten more contribution out of Aqua. Neither Cole nor Sahin (barring one purple patch) contributed consistently.


You make the point about injuries, but Sahin missed nearly all of last season through injury and missed a few games with his broken nose this season and Joe Cole's injury record is hardly promising, so in my argument we would be swapping two players who have struggled with injuries for one.

gilstrap said...

why....players lose form and get injured....money can make them lose motivation...they can be unhappy in there surroundings...they can be home sick...yadayadayada....there's a host of reasonds why a player can be good one season and crap the next

islesfan74 said...

Ah, yes. I didn't pick on that initially. I see what you're saying.

redforlife said...

Aquilani is to brittle for the EPL. That is why only teams from Italy came calling for his signature. Like islesfan74 said, Aquilani needs to be in the right setting to display his talent which does not say much about a player we paid 20 million for and then went on to loose all our money when we eventually managed to find a club that was willing to pay pennies for him and now you want to complain about paying 15 million for Allen?

redforlife said...

Obviously paying 20 million for Aquilani was a fantastic move now wasn't it?

Shegil A Shaji said...

another thing is when we r in bussiness even chicken shit will cost 10 million

Jaimie K said...

Thanks for your comments. My main issue is not with Sahin and his perceived importance to the team, I'm more concerned by wasted money (again), wasted time, and wasted opportunity to actually bring someone in on loan who could actually *help* the team progress, i.e. a striker, for example.

xxcell2010 said...

It has to be down to a few factors, either BR and LFC has too much money to waste, he is a non-Brit (Joe Allen is) or being forced out due to dressing room politics (threat to SG?) or simply, we are cursed. Initially, I thought BR was one of Arsene Wenger's fine recruits in player transfer antics as his work in Swansea looked good. As time goes by, I think I'm seriously wrong. It seems like BR is just another LFC manager that has inherited the inane money-throwing heritage since GH era. Buy high sell low is the LFC way right now, how sad it can be. We are definitely not a poor club, monetary wise, as the amount of money we spent on players every season is humongous, even in the Hicks & Gillett reign as owners. As returns, be it player sales or results on pitch, leaves a lot to be desired. Sadly but crudely, as much as I love LFC, deep inside I know unless we have an oil owner or a manager in the mold of Arsene Wenger or Alex Ferguson, we will never be league champion ever again.

Lilflexx12 said...

That's two big earners off our wage bill now (him and Cole). I just hope we can make great additions to the squad now.

xxcell2010 said...

Because we are post-KD LFC. So for every player we are interested in, his price tag goes up double. I really can't see Joe Allen and Borini can cost anything more than 8 mil pounds. We need not bother grand master Arsene Wenger with this, but maybe, we can ask David Moyes for opinion instead.

Peter_Maxwell said...

That stats at the end don't indicate at all how well the played. How many goals did he get? How many goals did he create? How many tackles did he make? What was his pass completion rate?

pandle said...

What's the big deal? We grabbed a bunch of kids and looked for the best match with the team, threw them in and let them show their stuff. We've got some great talent in Sterling, Henderson getting better, Suso will get better...I hope...I think the team is right to free up money to get another striker like Ince. Jaimie I think you must be Debbie Downer's long lost brother.

VermHat said...

I fail to see where I even hinted at that.


Fine reading, sir!

VermHat said...

I never said that paying £20mil for him is a good idea. I said that writing him off was a bad idea. I made the same point with regards to Allen and Henderson when there was an article suggesting we spend another £10+mil on Benat.

When we bought him. much like with Allen, I argued that it was a good player but for too high a price.

He could well have been too brittle for the Premiership. It is definitely possible. I remember that he would often shit out of tackles. What we do know for certain is that in the one season he did play in the Premiership he managed to get the second most assists out of everyone in our team (6, Gerrard got 13 having played roughly 4 times as many minutes) and he had the 6th best goal-to-minute ratio.

Southern-red said...

It's not worth discussing Michu as if we missed out. We were never really in for him! Yes he has done well in his first season, but so did Santa Cruz, Benni McCarthy, Zaki and Carroll. Doesn't make them world beaters. Lets be honest if BR had signed him, he would have been ridiculed for signing a two bob player for minimal money. Especially if he didn't work out!!! We still lack strength and trickery on the wings, a player to slip the killer pass though a wall of defenders and competent backup to Lucas. I have been guilty of berating Gerrard this season, but when he is allowed to play his natural game. You see glimpses of the old swagger he had.
YNWA.

Pete said...

Good post, totally agree.

Pete said...

That's correct, but also I think BR walked in with the media attention of KD's flops and instantly judged them. Henderson was allowed to leave. Credit to Hendo though. I think Allen is a good player and he will eventually come good just like Hendo is doing now.

Rob said...

It is very easy to blame players coming in but the real questions have to be asked about the shambolic recruiting policy of Liverpool.

There is no coherent plan at all to show us the direction the club is following.

Every manager that comes in seems to load up in an already overcrowded midfield.

It is astounding to realise Rafa left 3 managers ago but the only new regulars in the first team since he left are Suarez, Downing, Enrique, Allen and Sterling who was signed by Rafa anyway.

Since Rafa left the club has spent £22mln on Hodgson recruits, £110mln on KD recruits and now £42mln if you include Sturidge on Rodgers recruits totaling a mighty £174mln to upgrade by only 5 but potentially 6 regulars if Sturidge is included.

This £174mln could be interpreted to mean an average of £29million was spent on each of these new regulars, a considerably huge outlay which could in turn get worse if you discount Sterling given he was signed before the new managers came in.

Rodgers on his part is not making this any better by earmarking wrong areas to reinforce or simply letting players go before replacing them for example the Sahin deal.
The question would be was he needed at all but then if Rodgers felt he was needed why let him go before replacing him given the Carroll debacle were he was moved before being replaced.
It seems the overhauled scouting system needs overhauling already.
Maybe FSG should have stuck to their guns and brought in that Sporting Director who could provide a continuity plan rather than keep taking chances on players that fail to make the grade at Chelsea.
The non ex-Chelsea or ex-Swansea players i.e Sahin and Assaidi are finding out it is no bed of roses at Anfield

anteater said...

The bad signings we've made in the past 20 or so years do my head in. So much money wasted. Don't know the quotas, but would like to think that we are particularly prominent when it comes to bad signings. That was our downfall. Lets hope it gets better.

anteater said...

Still understood perfectly well what you said, though. And it could be interpreted as a Freudian slip, too :-)

Ah, yeah, now that you point it out, you are right. It was the start of this season, not last. Wouldn't have noticed it.

And thanks very much, indeed. A bit of recognition surely helps me to keep it up. Just like noticing that others agree. Onwards and upwards.


I'd bet that steyg comes on here on Sunday to post some negative stuff of how we get soundly beaten (which actually could happen) and Rodgers has to go.

anteater said...

Agreed. Should FSG actively try to sell him for the sake of profit, I would likely join those asking for new owners, though.

anteater said...

Exactly. It was Jaimie, too, by the way who mentioned only losing once in Sahin's appearances. I can only remember one game where he's left a lasting positive impression with me.

redforlife said...

So if it was not smart paying 15 million for Allen at the start of the season at the age of 22 then what made it smart paying 20 million for Aquilani in 09/10? Is it fair to say that we should have paid less for Aquilani???

redforlife said...

Why was Allen's price to high? You have said that you believe Allen will come good long term so what is the issue? City paid +- 12 million for Jack Rodwell and a similar amount for Gareth Barry who Rafa wanted to sign so i do not see your point really. 18 million for Glen Johnson... By now we should all know that if you want to sign British players then you will pay the price the selling club insists on and there is very little room for negotiating on those deals i.e. Tom Ince etc.

anteater said...

Thanks!

LFCsuperFan said...

Jaimie sometimes I question your so called objectivity or trying to be subjective. I don't question your loyalty to the club but I think you are stuck in the past. New coaches and players will come and go. Some might do better some will not. We are not Chelsea F.C. who just blame everything on the coach. True LFC Reds support until there is time for a change even then we still support. Get with it or just go wait somewhere until when the coaches and players you support comes to play for us. We shall support the TEAM we got including the coaches and the back room staff

VermHat said...

Why was Allen's price too high? Because I don't think that he is £15mil worth of player and I think that the price reflected the fact that Rodgers had just left and they wanted to get their pound of flesh. I know he had a release clause, but I can't imagine a side like Tottenham having paid that much.

I think Joe Allen will come good long term, yes, but that doesn't mean we should piss money up the wall. What I'm saying is that if we had to pay that much, then we should have told Swansea to fuck off and spent the money more wisely and waited for Allen's price to come down.

You've got to balance the long and short term.

Anyway, you've conflated two separate arguments I've made- 1) that Aquilani could have offered the team more than Sahin and Cole did and 2) that the Allen money could have been spent a bit more wisely.

stuart johnson said...

I think we've also got to consider that Allen has helped implement the system and show the other players how its done and for that reason I think he's been invaluable.

mfimfi said...

The money wasted part is down to our inability to negotiate better deals. Why did we pay so much for a player who was injured last season?
I feel a player can/should respectfully show discontent at being played out of position. Players know where they think they play their best football [mostly] or where they best plied their trade. Its akin to a heart surgeon being told to perform neurosurgery for a while [this would never happen].

mfimfi said...

totally agree.

mfimfi said...

Which transfer fee has he added to? The one we paid [20m] or his actual value is going up [5-8m]?

mfimfi said...

i agree about the sporting director [a good one]. BR's transfers have not hit the ground running.

mfimfi said...

I agree for 15m the only thing we seemed to have added is a bigger loss to our balance sheet! i assumed FSG wanted to sign young players to add value to their assets, how players like JA, JH, SD, AC will ever be worth more than we paid for them is beyond me.

mfimfi said...

Of course we should have, or maybe not signed an injured player even. Its not about the manager [if that's what you are eluding to], its about the club we sport wasting money.

mfifmi said...

*support*

mfimfi said...

I like what your saying good argument well presented [the whole thread that is;-)]

redforlife said...

If Aquilani could have offered more than Sahin and Cole then Aquilani would still be here. Guess what, all three players are gone so makes your comment pointless. Anyways, Sahin scored 3 goals with 3 assists in 12 matches for LFC so it is YOUR opinion that Aquialni could have offered more and Sahin who is actually a holding midfielder. Sahin's career stats puts Aquilani's to shame.


Aquilani scored 2 goals in all of his 28 matches for LFC so I do not quite know where you get the 6th best goal to minute ratio from.


Spending 20 million on this utter waste, then went to Juve and got kicked out of there while we were contributing to his wages, went to Milan and also contributing to his wages and then got the boot from them. This guy was a financial nightmare so whatever contribution he would have made at LFC still would not have mattered. To suggest that we should have kept him is utter madness.

VermHat said...

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

First of all, I know it is MY opinion (thanks for capitalising 'YOUR', that really helped matey). This is why I write 'I think' and 'I believe', instead of phrases like 'it is definitely true that...'. Amazing that, isn't it?

Second of all, you're obsessed with how much Aquilani cost. It was too much. I agree. I am not saying that it was a good deal, I am not saying it was good value for money. What I am saying is that you don't correct one mistake by making more.

If you overspend on a player, you are better off trying to get something out of him rather than just getting rid. If Fiorentina would have given us £10mil for Aqua and paid all his wages, I would have been all for it. That didn't happen. We got chump change and are still paying his wages. What I am saying is that if we are going to get so little out of selling him, why not try and squeeze some value out of him and keep him here?

It is a no lose situation. Joe Cole was never going to reestablish himself. Aquilani could have. He probably wouldn't have, but he might have. Getting rid of Cole in the Summer would have corrected nearly all of the cost of keeping Aquilani.

We also know, admittedly with the benefit of hindsight, that Sahin was a bad idea. It didn't work. So the worst Aquilani could have done is also not work...and we'd be in the same situation. (if you take into account the loan fee for Sahin, some sources have put as high as 7million Euros, that would have covered most of the transfer fee we got from Fiorentina for AA).

Aquilani didn't play 28 games for Liverpool. He started about 2 and came of the bench for a few minutes here and there. His goal to minute ratio is calculated by dividing the number of minutes he played by the number of goals he scored and then comparing that with his teammates stats. If he came off the bench for 2 minutes, that counts as a full appearance in less precise stats (I'm guessing you got yours from Wikipedia, they tend not to be very in depth).

You say he was a financial nightmare and whatever he contributed wouldn't have mattered. That makes no sense. None.

When Newcastle went down, some people moaned about how Coloccini cost too much and was paid too much. Then he played a part in getting them promoted and went on to be in the Premier League team of the year. Imagine if when they went down they would have said 'Well, he's been a financial nightmare so far, so whatever contribution he makes now wouldn't matter'. They'd have lost the bedrock of their side for the past 2.5 years.

If you aren't going to get much out of selling a player, then you are better off trying to get the best out of him. That is called management.

lfcroots said...

we are still operating a policy dependent on nationality rather than quality (see gerards interview)

redforlife said...

And now you want to go on about management. This is getting more and more ridiculous.

Please go and check up how many managers Aquilani has trained under since the turn of 10/11 and then be so kind to give me your portfolio as a manager at club level before we get into this discussion.

Cheerio.

anteater said...

Watch this place to get the opinions of, well, those who rate the value there:

http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/stewart-downing/mwverlaufgraph/spieler_4063.html

anteater said...

Hm, I like your comparison, but think it's rather the patient telling the surgeon how to do the operation in case of Sahin. He looked better further up the field (at least that was my impression). Anyway, there is no need to do it in public, unless the player wants to make known to the public (other clubs) that he isn't content with the situation and open to other solutions.

VermHat said...

Getting more and more ridiculous, eh?

You're making it tough for me here, buddy. Usually arguments work on the terms of point/counterpoint, but throughout this argument you've made no point other than:

'Aquilani is shit.'

That is fine if you think that but you can't continue an argument on that basis. If that is all you have then you say: 'Ah well, I don't think it would have been a good idea'

...rather than ...

'Listen I've worked out that he is shit- you might think he isn't but that is YOUR opinion. I know for a fact'.

As for management portfolio, I haven't got one, so it looks like you've got me there- you ingenious little blighter!...but wait! Aquilani was considered good enough to be a squad member (which is all I'm advocating) by Fabio Capello (gave him his debut), Luciano Spalletti (made him the heartbeat of his side) and Massimo Allegri (thought he was good enough to get in the squad of the Italian champions). They all thought he was alright and I'm more willing to trust them (having had a look at their portfolios) than you. Who appears to knows fuck all...and not just about football, by the looks of things, but also about how constructing an argument works.

So, if you want to show me YOUR portfolio (I know you like the capitals- they really jump off the screen don't they?) then we can start there. I do have a suspicion that you are actually running Liverpool Football Club. How else could you possibly make a comment like: 'If Aquilani could have offered more than Sahin and Cole then Aquilani would still be here'? Such certainty!

Unless...you couldn't be...guessing?...like I am?...but acting like it is definitely fact?...but that would be mental...

Buh-bye

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