15 Nov 2012

'He doesn't compare!' - Man Utd hero claims Gerrard is 'not a great player'. True...?

Steven Gerrard's ego has been well and truly massaged this week, with everyone and their dog heaping massive praise on Liverpool's captain for reaching the 100-cap milestone for the England national team. Much of the praise seems to ignore the fact that Gerrard - part of the ludicrously overhyped 'Golden Generation - has underwhelmed for England during much of his international career. His influence for Liverpool, however, cannot be denied. Or can it? Former Manchester United captain Roy Keane has been a lone dissenting voice amongst all the praise this week, and he is not convinced about Gerrard's 'greatness'.

Discussing Gerrard's England achievement on ITV last night, Keane - who led Man Utd to twelve major trophies - observed:

"Gerrard is a good player, but not a great player.

"He's had a tough couple of years for Liverpool. He has shown he is capable of winning games on his own, but I don't think he's made the players around him much better.

"Gerrard is maybe a little bit behind the likes of Scholes and Vieira when it comes to Premier League greatness, but he's a top player".


Individually, Gerrard has had an amazing impact on Liverpool over the years, but being completely objective, Keane is probably right that Scholes and Vieira are ahead of him in terms of Premier League greatness.

How do you measure such greatness? Well, Scholes and Vieira have 13 league titles between them, and that has to count for something.

Liverpool fans always argue that Bob Paisley is a superior manager to Alex Ferguson by virtue of the fact he won more European Cups (3 in 4 years), so the same principle must surely apply in some way when comparing Gerrard to Scholes and Vieira?

Keane is wrong about Gerrard not being a 'great player' though; for Liverpool, he undoubtedly is; For England, he's merely been average, but there's no denying his influence at Anfield.

Having said that, I have to agree with Keane's contention that Gerrard hasn't improved the players around him. In some ways, Gerrard is a selfish player; he seems to thrive on the 'Liverpool saviour' tag, and over the years, he has often thrived whilst the team has suffered.

A prime example of this is 2002-2004: those two season were atrocious for the team, but Gerrard excelled; indeed, the 'Liverpool is one man team' legend was arguably forged during those two seasons, yet Gerrard's brilliance did not rub off on his colleagues.

I'm sure other LFC fans will disagree, but I can't think of many players who have massively improved as a direct result of playing with Gerrard...

Whether improving players is a valid criterion for considering a player 'great' is, however, open to debate.

REMINDER: ANY post containing insults/derogatory comments against Keane will be deleted. If you disagree with him, make your point in a civil manner, or don't bother at all.

Jaimie Kanwar


337 comments:

  1. True, he wasn't great, but is a game won in 45 minutes? No its not. He collected himself at half time, rallied the players and came out all guns blazing as shown by the first goal.

    If anything that shows the strength in character, spirit and the will to never give up the man has. At 3-0 a most players would give up the ghost. Not Gerrard.

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  2. Yes, because Garcia scored the last minute goal against Olympiakos to get us through to the next round.

    Oh wait, no he didn't, it was Gerrard.

    Come on - if you are going to reply and least have the courtesy and decency to think about what you are typing first? Its just manners.

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  3. The same players you mention also regard Gerrard as one of the best of his generation.

    At least Gerrard didn't turn his back on his own country.

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  4. This man speaks sense.

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  5. To be honest, I just don't think he has much of a clue about football. Some of his views and comments are so far wrong it's like he's never sat and watched the game.

    Warped.

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  6. Messi can actually play in multiple positions, he can play as a centre forward, left winger, right winger, he is just played in his current role because that is where he is the most effective. Cristiano Ronaldo likewise can play in multiple positions. Fact remains, Keane and Scholes were never considered world class, Gerrard is without a doubt world class.

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  7. You mention Finnan as not being class, you are wrong in this, when he was at Liverpool, he was the best Right Back in England, he was a very underrated player, Martin Kelly reminds me very much of Finnan. Re Jaimie's comment, frankly this is ridiculous, yes, these players you mentioned have all no doubt been class and had they have been in the same team at the same time, things would have been different, but they were not. And this just goes to show his how great he has been for so long.

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  8. That was one manager and hardly an argument, when Rafa had the money to buy players, he normally got it right, any player you buy is a risk though. Houllier for most of his spell in charge of us got it right too.

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  9. kenny dalglish was liverpools best player....steven gerrard next....i think most fans...would say that...yes you will get a few who wont but not many...as for steven gerrard.. he is a better player than keane..and veira.. i remember a interview with fergie on tv about veira and he said steven gerrard was the best and he was one player he would like to sign.. its about opinions...and if you asked players ex managers from all over i think sg would come out on top...even maradonna said after istanbul...sg is a great player...beckanbauer too...beeckham. neville, wenger, veira.. and many more...keane i think fell short as scholes is the better player than him.. and as for putting beardley above rush ?(and beardsley was good) you must be one off jamie..plus fowler was a better player than macca...did more for liverpool than macca ever did...but as for sg...most people will say he is world class....

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  10. I've not found too much to disagree with from Jamie; But this i feel, is absolute drivel.

    Gerrard has performed in a mediocre team, above all expectation and continued to be the most potent threat for most of his career.

    The fact that the team around him is average or quite frankly, rubbish, is no bearing in the player. Its like saying its Gerrards fault that LFC bought the likes of Downing and Carroll.

    Utter rubbish from Keane and you Jamie; Gerrard deserve way more credit for the life role he has played for LFC.

    Were it not for him, LFC would be relegation fodder for the past 4 seasons!

    And this is how the Captain who stuck by his beloved club gets treated.

    You call yourselves supports; lol...

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  11. How many caps did Scholes get? How many did Vieira get? Scholes has 2/3 of the caps that Gerrard has, 66 with 14 goals scored. Vieira has represented France 107 times, scoring 6 times, Steven Gerrard has represented England 100 times and scored 19 times. If scholes was better than Gerrard, surely he would have had more caps than Gerrard, and although Vieira currently holds more caps, surely Gerrard will beat him in that aspect as well.

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  12. Are you able to name any player that has excelled for England during the same time frame. scouser

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  13. Alan shearer arguably one of the best strikers the league has seen. Has won less than Gerrard. Does that make him any less of a player? Of course not.

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  14. On d whole, Keane is rightas Gerrard was outstanding for much of his Liverpool term& not England. While a player may not solely be measured by his club&country's performance, dr msut still be a correlation. Even Messi has done some outstanding things for Argentina, ditto Ronaldo for Portugal. But where Gerrard's career even at Liverpool cannot be called great could be seen in d fact of more dn 15 yrs at Liverpool& no single premiership trophy yet

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  15. That is true, but Gerrard made the team of the tournament at Uefa 2012, this shows that his performances were above average.

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  16. Why is it we have to take Keane's opinion seriously, but not Joey Barton's, who said he is the best midfielder in the Premier League, they are both thugs and delusional, only difference is, Keane was talented enough to get into a championship winning side. and yes, Man Utd had already won the title when Keane arrived.

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  17. Where has he been on the international stage? 100 caps speaks for itself there

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  18. Maybe you need to say his nationality twice, to be sure to be sure.

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  19. What do u expect them to say..they are just being kind and respectful.

    If you asked Zidane what he thought of Jamie Carragher..in front of camera he will describe him WORLD CLASS...but we all know how good Carragher really is.

    If u asked Zidane off the record about Gerrard ...bet you'll get a different answer.

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  20. To be fair, Jerzy Dudek was a very good keeper, Finnan was the best RB in England at the time, Jamie Carragher one of the best CB's in Europe, Sami Hyypia likewise, Luis Garcia was quality, John Arne Riise was also quality, Harry Kewell got injured too often, but was/is a class player, Dietmar Hamann was a tremendous player, only player in this lot, other than Xabi to hold a World Cup winner's medal, so for you to say that 2 or 3 were average is an insult, and that's what makes the result in Istanbul all the more impressive, he turned a team who for the most part were class but just not performing on the night, 3-0 down, and then inspired the comeback, that shows just how influential he is and goes to show he can inspire players to perform better.

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  21. You're right about Olympiakos, but had it not been for Luis Garcia, we would not have gotten past Juventus, so, maybe you should drink some of your own medicine.

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  22. "Do you not understand the concept that other people are allowed to have a different opinion than you?" Wasn't that your response to Stevedav1's comment?? Yet you slate Jason Carr for having a very valid opinion. Wow it must be tough for you up there on your pedestal looking down upon us mere mortals...."Do as I say not as I do". eh Jamie????

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  23. I didn't mean it as an insult at all, and I was probably being a little harsh to those players you mentioned, they were quality players at that time, agreed (apart from maybe Kewel!).

    I think we are both getting at the same point though - that Gerrard does inspire and improve players around him.

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  24. Yep, 100 caps....most of them largely forgettable.

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  25. Like I said, his strengths and flaws. Great game to illustrate that

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  26. Who gives a monkey's what that leg-breaker thinks? Clearly he was 'great'.

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  27. What has Falcao ever won then? Gerrard most certainly is world class as are the players you mention. The players you mention also play different positions, and only 2 or 3 can be considered to play Gerrard's position, so that makes what you say redundant. And to say Gerrard has done nothing, he has won every bit of silverware at club level bar the Premiership, that shows that in these teams he can actually do it. So again, your posting has been made redundant. And to say if he had moved he would have become world class? Xabi Alonso became world class when he played at Liverpool, as did Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Hyypia, Hamaan, the list goes on. Gerrard was on the shortlist for the Ballon D'or multiple times, which shows that he is world class.

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  28. Roy keane needs to stop flapping his gums the egotisical jert bag.stevie g never deserted his country wen he has had fallouts wiv his England managers...Roy keane clueless and he fecks off wen told something he dnt lines that's why he quit Ireland and most managerial jobs in other words he a coward FACT!!!

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  29. A pity Gerrard didn't play that well himself. Resorting to those annoying open play hoof-balls and looked defensively dodgy as the back four behind him. His set pieces were great as usual though. Not a central midfielder for international level but hey, Roy knows best....

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  30. John Terry, Ashley Cole: not many matches for England you can say they didn't perform. In fact, I would even go as far to say that Beckham had a great impact on the international stage than Gerrard ever has.

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  31. Every midfielder in the history of football has strengths and flaws though, OrignialChan, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

    Lets get back to the article shall we, 'Gerrard does not improve players around him.' Well surely in this game (and countless other games), it proves he does.

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  32. If you took Gerrard out of that team en-route to the final we'd have got no where near the final. The same cannot be said for Garcia. Gerrard was much, much more influential.

    Please engage your brain before replying - thanks.

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  33. Cause scholes was always played out of position cas too many managers wanted gerrard and lampard to work

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  34. This isn't North Korea, it's Liverpool Kop

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  35. Not to mention Wes Brown winning more league titles than Gerrard, does that make him a better player?

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  36. But Scholes wasn't good for England either and didn't play as much for England as Gerrard did. So to say Scholes is better because Gerrard didn't play well for England is completely misguided. Gerrard has also done some outstanding things for England. He was voted in the team of the tournament at the Euros. The team of the tournament had 4 Germans, 4 Italians, 3 Portuguese, 10 Spanish, 1 Swede and 1 English. So for Gerrard to get in, shows that he has actually performed at a high level for England.

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  37. Keane is a bitter twisted old man even some of his criticisms of United were unfair a great player no doubt a bad judge of players and a very average manager.
    We have all seen Gerard countless times and know just how good he is and the fact that many of the worlds best managers have wanted him says something.

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  38. if scholes was better than Gerrard, he would have more caps than Gerrard, and although Vieira.....'

    A simple argument but football isn't that simple, nowhere near that simple.

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  39. How can cack players like Downing and SWP get 30+ caps?

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  40. Apart from a few mistakes, I think Ashley Cole has been really good and only one out of the so-called golden generation that comes out looking anywhere near good at international level.

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  41. Its not a level playing field, so its hard to judge

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  42. Torres clearly thrived playing alongside Gerrard and his goalscoring record since leaving proves that he made him better. Number of trophies won is a valid benchmark to compare managers but ability and influence on the team should be used as the yardstick for a player's "greatness" and Stevie certainly meets the criteria there. That you agree with the notion that Scholes and Viera are "greater" than Gerrard is basically like saying that had Gerrard gone to club that has won the league in the recent times, he would be great.

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  43. For country or for club, Gerrard has never had to play with the dire group of players that Ireland had during that time (I thought Keane went to international tournaments 2 or 3 times, not sure). Its not as if Keane is the only one out of the two, not to qualify for a international tournament, despite England having had a much better group of players (and Gerrard was captain in those two losses I think against Russia & Croatia, under brolly man McClaren).

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  44. one person cant/wont know every single quote. Get real! Jamie does a great job single handedly researchin and updating this site. Its easy to criticse, but i implore you to try and do better!

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  45. Jamie,

    You need to learn to admit when your wrong and back down. You seem to be unable to do this and keep arguing your point when evidence is presented and you know you are wrong

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  46. Not true! Stop being blinkered! they were both great midfielders but Keane inspired, gerard doesnt!

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  47. Again, wrong. Messi does not only play in one position. Barcelona play him behind the striker, sometimes as a striker.

    Argentina, play him out of the left of an attacking three, along with Aguero and Tevez.

    Do your research!

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  48. This is true, but he walked out cos ireland werent professional enough! As an irish man he let me down, but you have to question why the irish international team where taking the tournmanet as a holiday / piss up, with below expectations facilities. They had a mockery of a setup compared to what he was use to at old trafford, and he tried to force them to straighten it up, but he was hittin his head against a brick wall :(

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  49. Blinkered, keane was a good a gerard, its true!

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  50. I would say he had an integral role in most of them.

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  51. Gerrard is a great player, and has rightfully been given plaudits as on the big stage he has delivered consistently over a 10 year period. You can point to Scholes and Viera being great players also, but in fairness to Gerard, he has never been surrounded by the type of players Scholes and Viera have had the luxury of playing with. Your not simply a great player because you win titles, for instance who would choose Andy Cole over Shearer. As for the national team, I don't think you can judge any England player on the national team, because that squad has been a mismanaged basket case since 1996...memories of the Wags is just one instance tells you all you need to know. Only a few can conceivably come out with any self respect from that mess, Gerrard included. Ask liverpool fans, who was better Alonso or Gerard, and you'll find everytime Gerard would be picked. Yet Alonso is a world cup and european cup winner. Titles mean sometime but will never be trumped by consistent delivery of performance.

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  52. Neilkrugermagazine1:39 pm, November 16, 2012

    Gerrard has been surrounded by some dreadful players through his career - is it his fault they're so bad? Good players bring the best out in those around them, but you can only work with what you've got. Anyway, I'm sure the likes of Djimi Traore won't be complaining about having Gerrard in the team when they look at their medal collection.

    Sorry to sound like an ITK here, but my mate's son plays football with Paul Scholes's son and so he speaks with Scholes from time to time. Apparently Scholes said one time that Gerrard is the best player he's ever come up against.

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  53. Jamie as you have deleted my post I will repost it now - perhaps a response mr
    Jong-un ?

    Jamie - it is very difficult to have respect for your articles when you follow
    up your articles with the responses you have made below.

    You are clearly entrenched in your view point in dismissing the perfectly valid
    Torres quotes - your first instinct is to deny that they exist and when shown
    that they do you revert to saying that you don't agree with what he is saying. A
    man with humility and an open mind would accept that Torres is clearly saying
    that gerrard improved him as a player.

    Secondly, you are determined to point out Roy Keane's right to have a view point
    but the deride others for their view point. To be fair I don't agree with Roy's
    opinion and not do I agree with some of the posts that call him names but both
    Roy and the posters have a right to their view.

    Thirdly and most laughable is that you state that 'this isn't North Korea' and
    Roy is entitled to his view... Then promptly ban others from posting dissenting
    opinions. I'm afraid that this site is a perfect example of a mini North Korea.

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  54. I think you'll find that is a Dutch way to view football.

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  55. He improved every liverpool player from the goalie to the strikers in the champions league final after he scored and that for me is already enough from an individual player so you best keep your opinions to yourself roy keane becouse if you think you have 12 titles on your merits your wrong, you have your titles becouse of the fantasitc team mates you had at ManU.

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  56. Best thing Roy was good at is getting red cards hahahahah

    YNWA from Malta

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  57. Cuz Roy Keane improved all those players he played with during his career didn't he? The mans got a washed up career and washed up mind. He wouldn't be fit enough to lace Gerrards boots or Souness for that matter! Gerrard has carried lfc for a decade and I for one am grateful to have watched and supported him over his career. Any lfc fan would! Anyone else's opinion is not worth listening to. YNWA

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  58. Man Utd fan here. I think Gerrard is a great player. But great as in Zidane....naaa..If i was to pick between Viera and Gerrard it would be Gerrard every time, he has everything. Keane and Gerrard....difficult. Keane is a idiot. A crazy idiot, but wouldn't every other player want him around them.
    And for England..i think Gerrard has been very good. He always stands above the others. Apart from Beckham who at some points single handedly carried England I mean if you compare Gerrard to Lampard he has been outstanding. I always thought so much more of Gerrard than Lampard. I would have dropped Lmapard and built the midfield around Gerrard..I think Gerrard could have done that...been that kind of inspiration but maybe if he'd been at Arsenal or Man Utd winning..with Viera or Keane he would have had that as part of his character.
    But i do admire him..his loyalty. Like Giggs/Scholes..he has stuck with Liverpool and that has to be celebrated.

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  59. firstly you all squabble like little girls about quotes of great players and what they think, im sure that zidan has been quoted as saying at different points saying huge numbers of players are the best, and its sporting of him to do so, stop making football into a science you can quantify and realize its a game of passion and therefore you are well within your rights to to hate and abuse a player just because he plays for a different team. for example im a massive red (as in the good true manchester red rater than ur dirty liverpool red) so i think scholes is the best playmaker to have ever lived and gerrard is the scum of the earth with 2 left feet

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  60. Jamie, lots to say on this. Firstly you're a stats man. I'd be keen to see how many goals, assists, completed passes, interceptions etc Gerrard has/has made per season versus Scholes and Viera. The titles thing doesn;t stack up. Gerrard has won crucial games on his own, FA cup final and arguably the catalyst for success in Istanbul. I can;t recall similar big game winning performances from Scholes and Viera.

    Patrice Muamba also recently commented how clever a team player was. He stated that one game he had to man mark Gerrard. Gerrard took it upon himself to play further up the field thus creating space for Alonso to dictate play. He termed this an unselfish act by Gerrard and that he knew whathe was doing. The Torres Gerrard thing iw well known. Torres was his most prolific when Gerrard played just behind him. I believe the stats would more than support this.

    Finally, could Viera and Scholes have played right back, left back, right mid, left mid, attacking mid, defensive mid and behind the striker? attacking mid and defensive mid for Viera. Scholes just centre mid who was a great passer of the ball but couldn;t tackle. Alonso is a better player than Scholes. did he win lots of league titles at LFC, no. Has he and will he at Real Madrid - yes. Team is bigger than any player so your number of league titles argument in my opnion is flawed by evidence such as this....

    Definition of great is subjective. On the points of above Gerrard is greater than Scholes, Viera and most other midfielders you could mention. Just ask most players who've played against Gerrard in the field of play. I rarely hear Scholes and Viera being mentioned but Gerrard is with regularity.......

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  61. Jamie that's not like one of your usual comments. How can that be measured? it's immeasurable. You'd have to have been able to put Gerrard in the Man Utd team of the time and vice versa with Gerrard. Interestingly however Fergie has tried to buy Gerrard in the past as has Mourinho. Two of the best managers of our time have both thought he could add something to their teams. Interested on your comments re this.....

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  62. have to disagree with keane and the thought that gerrard isnt a great player, yes in my opinion keane is one of the premier leagues greatest players but if you take the team he had around him in comparison to the teams gerrard has played in you cant really compare, nicky butt looked a classy player until he left united and even keane didnt look so clever for a couple of years when chelsea where winning the league, gerrard if you look at the torres season from when torres 1st joined and the season we finished 2nd played better than keane ever did for united

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  63. No, you have just completely missed the point.

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  64. Who gives a monkeys about bloody versatility when it comes to deciding who is a better player.

    Messi can't play right back, left back, defensive mid, etc. Messi, pffft, your not worthy to tie the laces of Djimi Traore!)

    Phil Neville, cor, now thats a player, he could play centre back, left back, right back, centre mid, right mid..cor(!)

    '....rarely hear Scholes and Vieira....' - you clearly hear and see what you want to see. I bet you did not read about how the Barca players were so eager to get Scholes' shirt after the CL final, that they drew lots (e.g. think drawing straws) to decide who would get to go and get his shirt.

    I'm not even a Manure fan and I rate Xabi as a central midfielder over Gerrard the central midfielder but Xavi, then Pirlo and Scholes are in a class of their own in last 10-15 years, when it comes to central midfield orchestrators.

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  65. Jamie as you have deleted my post I will repost it now - perhaps a response mr Jong-un ?

    Jamie - it is very difficult to have respect for your articles when you follow up your articles with the responses you have made below.

    You are clearly entrenched in your view point in dismissing the perfectly valid Torres quotes - your first instinct is to deny that they exist and when shown that they do you revert to saying that you don't agree with what he is saying. A man with humility and an open mind would accept that Torres is clearly saying that gerrard improved him as a player.

    Secondly, you are determined to point out Roy Keane's right to have a view point but the deride others for their view point. To be fair I don't agree with Roy's opinion and not do I agree with some of the posts that call him names but both Roy and the posters have a right to their view.

    Thirdly and most laughable is that you state that 'this isn't North Korea' and Roy is entitled to his view... Then promptly ban others from posting dissenting opinions. I'm afraid that this site is a perfect example of a mini North Korea.

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  66. Shame on you Keane for not being world class in the twilight of your career and not leading the battle against the measly Chelsea side(!)

    Like Stevie so far, Keane's performances were average at best in the twilight of his career. Probably haven't seen a consistently good Stevie G in 2 seasons.

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  67. Pep Guardiola

    Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him.

    Zinedine Zidane

    My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder.

    Xavi

    In the last 15 to 20 years the best central midfielder that I have seen — the most complete — is Scholes. I have spoken with Xabi Alonso about this many times. Scholes is a spectacular player who has everything. He can play the final pass, he can score, he is strong, he never gets knocked off the ball and he doesn’t give possession away. If he had been Spanish then maybe he would have been valued more.

    Luis Figo

    I’m star-struck when I see Paul Scholes because you never see him. On the pitch you can’t catch him. Off the pitch he disappears.

    Lionel Messi

    At La Masia his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher.

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  68. But Gerrard is a great player...I'm a UTD fan, but i've always liked gerrard. Keane is a nutcase, but a winner.
    I would always pick Gerrard ahead of Vierra, so does that make Vierra not a great player?? i just don't think Gerrard ever got the chance to play for a great team. Can you imagine is he'd been with Keane and Scholes fin a side, or played for Madrid or Barcelona?? He would have been considered one of the worlds best.. But he is a loyal guy as his commitment to Liverpool shows and fair play to him. Sometimes people don't get the chance to show every last drop of what they have. Gerrard won't, but that is fine because 1000's of people love him and what more could you want from a life of playing??

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  69. Well, I would say that we all have a right to express our opinions and my opinion is that your comment is bang on Sir.

    :-)

    G

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  70. Not one of those players would have inspired us to win a league title, or the champions league/ FA cup for that matter... Fact is no one can inspire Igor Biscan, Djimi Traore, Andre Vorinin to a premier league title!!!!!!

    Id like to see Keane smash in goals against West ham and Olympiacos like captain fantastic did, they guy cant lace Gerrard's boots #BitterManc! He would go down as the best player EVER if he was at the Utd.

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  71. Don't insult Keane, you'll get banned!
    Gerrard had a great team, came close to winning title, and it fell apart. we sold 4 midfielders that were allowing him to be closer to the goal and his perfect fit in attack. Now we're building again, just hope he is around to participate in league winning...

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  72. At lest gerrad has a left foot unlike scholes u clown

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  73. I agree with keano! A great is someone who leads well and wins well and achieves all. Example terry, lampard, a cole, drogba all are greats coz thry have won everything at club level.

    Its like with messi he is world class but he wont be a great until he wins world cup with argentina.

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  74. So basically Roy Keane having a dig at Stevie for not going to Chelsea or Utd. Look at ability, in his heyday Stevie could have played for any team. LB RB CB DM MC AM RM LM F S.. I think that makes him a great player!!

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  75. Alan Shearer... Great player or not????

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  76. Gerrard is a complete footballer he can play all over the park.keane can have his view but it doesn't mean it's right if he is such a good judge why dident he make it as a manager ????

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  77. You obviously no nothing about the game if you can sit and tell me LIONEL MESSI is not a footballing great!! Deluded mate

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  78. Do u not remember scholes throwing a punch at alonso.i don think alonso rates him that much pal

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  79. Gerrard has made players around him play better. It's not up to him to make them better, that's their own responsibility. Bu you look at how much better players have been able to play alongside Gerrard like Torres and there can be no doubt. Sure he underachieved for England but who hasn't? And in many games I think many have felt he was the best player on the pitch for England. I feel keane will be bias against Stevie because he himself is often compared side by side with him. One thing keane forgot to point out was how classy of a player Stevie is, a real role model. Something many recent united players (including keane) prefer to ignore.

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  80. Gerrard is the only player to score in FA Cup, League Cup, UEFA Cup and Champions League finals. Gerrard has scored far more goals domestically and internationally than either Scholes and Vieira.

    Ignore this nonsense by Keane - it's a cheap shot.

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  81. Who is this Gerrard fella?

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  82. There is no other reason for you to start this debate, other than to undermine Steven Gerrard. I honestly believe you are a Man Unt fan.

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  83. Keats is a cunt !!! Delete this message then!!! Again keane is a cunt

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  84. Roy Keane was a much better player than Gerrard. Gerrard is a fine player, and was/is excellent at times - but Roy Keane is the greatest defensive midfielder I have ever seen - ever.

    I'm a Liverpool fan - and love Stevie, but Stevie knows that Keane was better than he could ever be. Roy was a one-man army, and the most intelligent midfielders I have ever seen.

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  85. I do remember, and Alonso does rate him as the best central midfielder of the last 15 - 20 years..

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  86. I'm a Man Utd fan and i think Gerrard is an amazing player, but you are right Keane was a one-man army..that's the difference...A lunatic, but the greatest defensice midfielder i've seen also.

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  87. Bloody footballers10:35 pm, November 16, 2012

    Oh real role model? Gerrard? GBH? Diver? Elbows? Hypocrite (lambasting foreigners in his book for theatric)? passing the ball around? Real role model, my backside. 'Pride of Britain Awards' illustrate the kind of human beings that are role models, not some poxy pampered big ego footballer.

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  88. Bloody footballers10:37 pm, November 16, 2012

    Well done Gerrard for outscoring a defensive midfielder and outscoring a player that has far less caps than you by a huge and monumental margin of....3 goals. My word, your point was far cheaper and worse than Keane's 'cheap shot'

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  89. Bloody footballers10:40 pm, November 16, 2012

    Original Ronaldo could only play up front, I guess that makes him rubbish eh....

    Pele could only play up front, I guess that makes him rubbish eh

    Cruyff couldn't play in defence, so I guess that makes him rubbish eh

    Whereas Luis Enrique could play all over the pitch, I guess that makes him great...

    Versatility doesn't mean complete or greatness

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  90. Bloody footballers10:44 pm, November 16, 2012

    'having been played at left midfield for much of his career' - what absolute rubbish. If that was true, than how on earth have Downing and Joe Cole (first choice left midfield for England for a long time) got so many caps, considering they have mainly played on the left. 'Excelled'? apart from game here and there, he has never excelled consistently throughout his England career. He was nothing special alongside Barry, as illustrated by the non-existent improvement of the side during that period. 'objective', my backside.

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  91. Gerrard was barely successful before Rafa came and since Rafa has left, he has barely been successful. 1) it shows how he is overrated as a CM (as this was the role he played before Rafa came along) 2) Gerrard hasn't been anything to go lovey dovey over (i.e. world class), without Rafa and his use of him. 3) in terms of your importance on success with different managers/styles, Vieira has been far better but even then, it is not important at all to have been successful everywhere. Look at Maldini, one-man club, and no one, not even you, can question the legend. The same will go for Messi. To doubt someone's ability on the basis of what they haven't done in other clubs, different quality squads, leagues or managers is just futile.

    Rafa understood Gerrard. Gerrard is a overrated CM as he is too tactless but a quality player behind the striker and on the right. As a CM, he simply doesn't even come close to the likes of Keane, Vieira, Scholes, etc.

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  92. Bloody footballers10:58 pm, November 16, 2012

    Wheres the proof that Fergie tried to buy him? i.e. made a unsuccessful enquiry/bid for him? Rating a player or wishing he was at your club does not mean he tried to buy him. Anyway, Ferguson bought Bebe, so much for his judgment.

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  93. Gerrard wouldn't fit in at Barca, especially in midfield. Too hollywood, direct and bull-in-a-china-shop. Maybe he could be a good defender for them but thats about it.

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  94. Bloody footballers11:02 pm, November 16, 2012

    Some people aren't so narrow-minded to let moments like that cloud their judgment.

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  95. I dont believe Ferguson ever did try to buy him as he admitted there was no point in trying, yet he did say once if there was 1 player he could sign it would be Steven Gerrard and if my memory serves me right Keane was at the club then.

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  96. Bloody footballers1:08 am, November 17, 2012

    Exactly, he never tried to, which is what was my point. Secondly, what on earth has whether Keane was at the club or not got to do with his admiration of Gerrard? It proves nothing conclusively, in relation to your implied point that he must have thought Gerrard was better. Whose to say he wouldn't play Keane and Gerrard in the same side? This is the guy that signed Veron, played (unsuccessfully) both him and Scholes together in the same team. This is the guy that signed Van Persie, when he didn't need to as he has a million strikers already and needed to improve their dire central midfield. So bloody what if 'Keane was at the club then'

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  97. You do your research love. Messi played behind the front two (like he often does) against Uruguay last month. He is their playmaker. Even if you disagree with that, Tevez has barely played for Argentina in recent times. Check the Argentina stats for game appeared in, in the last season. If your going to give it the large, back it up.

    Messi plays as the false nine for Barca and allowed to float anywhere. He is always the main striker for them since Guardiola changed the system but he isn't a orthodox striker, i.e., he is allowed to go everywhere in the last third.

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  98. There was no implied point that Gerrard is better then Keane i was just saying Keane was at the club, nothing more, i was actually only commenting to point out that there was no proof he tried to sign him as he never did, i was agreeing with what you said.

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  99. My strengths and flaws comment is linked to the initial reply mine, i.e., that game illustrate him at his tactically worse as well as his hero-saving best. The fella I was replying to was painting a rose-tinted picture of the final, I was saying words to the effect that it wasn't all so rosy from Gerrard. There is my point and a point I already made in the initial reply to the fella, if you thought a bit outside the box.

    Ok, lets play 'lets get back to article shall we'

    Xabi: '"Gerrard is a great player. He inspires and leads, he is very capable of making players around him raise their game, BUT he also needs players alongside to bring the best out of him," '

    Yeh, Gerrard might make players around him better but its not a one-way street. Lets use the example you are so fond of to hype up Gerrard. That final itself is a great example of Xabi's comment, Xabi-Hamann gave him the platform to do what he did in the second half. Masch-Xabi gave him the platform to have the best period of form in his career (his form prior to these two coming in was patchy as f**k), in the role behind Torres and on the right. That game may prove what you are painting (with your cheesy line of he 'collected himself', 'rallied', totally ignoring and disrespecting Hamann's and Rafa's roles in that change in fortune, to hype up Gerrard's contribution.)but it also proves Xabi's point that he needs the help of others too. People want to paint it as a one-way street, when it clearly isn't and is disrespectful to the talents of Hamann, Masch, Xabi, etc. That is what I find nauseating, bigging up Gerrard at all costs.

    To summarise, he can make others better but others can make him better too. Secondly, if you want to use that final to hype up his Roy of the Rovers act, fine, but for me, that final can ALSO (i.e. in tandem with praising of his Roy of the Rovers act) be used to illustrate his considerable limitations as a CM. Anyhoo, I'll leave it there as I've said what I needed to say and anymore would be regurgitating...again.

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  100. Its a sport, not the army or war.

    Some people would have players shot dead for retiring from international football, I swear.

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  101. Bloody footballers1:47 am, November 17, 2012

    Why couldn't you just say you did imply that, because now it looks like I was on a mindless rant! ;)

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  102. Firstly less of the homoerotic 'love,' fella, I'm not that way inclined, so please stop trying to chat me up. You might be gay, but I'm married with kids - cheers.

    Secondly, you've just totally contradicted yourself, which is a bit silly, main strikers do not 'float about anywhere.' Good Lord, at least be coherent if you are going to reply.

    Thirdly, thank you for reaffirming my point with regards to Jaimie's - lets say ill-informed rash - statement that Messi only plays one position, was absolute garbage.

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  103. You do realise you can apply statements to different contexts?

    "Turning your back on your country," could apply to anything in any context, not just war. Also its fully relevant here as I am talking about England, you know the COUNTRY.

    What are you like 12 years old? I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

    Common sense boy, common sense.

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  104. I pretty much stopped reading when it got down to "Yeh, Gerrard might make players around him play better." As this was the main crux of the argument up for debate. One which with this quote you've shown you agree with what I've already said.

    Nice debating with you.

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  105. Thanks for biting in such a stupid manner. I know what your point was. I mocking it in a sensationalist manner as I don't see the big deal in retiring from international football. Stop being so trigger-happy and think before you post. Well done(!) Cheerio.

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  106. Think before you get all trigger-happy at anyone that dares to disagree with you. I know what you meant, nowhere in my post does it illustrate that I didn't know what you meant. I was mocking and sensationalizing your point, as I don't see the big deal in retiring from international football but thanks for biting and reacting in such a stupid and bemusingly angry manner. Well done(!) Cheerio.

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  107. Haha, grow up boy.

    The only one biting and filled with rage is you, which is why you keep replying.

    Was there any need to try and be patronising and trying to 'look good,' by stating it's not war, its football? The tone of that response alone was so angry haha, its like you were would up like a little toy, someone your age might play with.

    I assume you are one of these 'internet trolls,' so you won't be getting any more of time. =]

    Good luck with the anger management, boy. Haha.

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  108. What exactly did Keane manage in that regard then? You're not saying he was outstanding are you?

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  109. So angry aren't you! Calm down boy. =]

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  110. But when it comes to a quote from a high profile ex player on our official site during the time of a huge milestone for Gerrard, he should know. Jaimie does a great job researching and finding the negative quotes, not the positive quotes, and when someone else finds positive quotes, he dismisses them.

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  111. I may have missed YOUR point, but I haven't missed THE point, which are two completely different things. THE point is that winning titles doesn't make you a better player.

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  112. Not that I keep a catalogue of players' inspiriational performances but off the top of my head, the CL game against Juve, he was begrudgingly brilliant. And yes, I'm afraid, I am saying he was outstanding.

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  113. Ferguson was trying to fill some big shoes when he made known his admiration for Gerrard in 2004.


    ‘If you were looking for the player you would replace Keane with, it would be Gerrard,’ he said. ‘He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. More than Vieira. To me, Gerrard is Keane. Anyone would love to have Gerrard in their team.’



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2196614/Steven-Gerrard-exclusive-Manchester-United-wanted-Real-Madrid-Im-Liverpool-life.html#ixzz2CRWHb6kM

    There are some on this board who need to wise up before posting.

    According to them, Ferguson never wanted to buy Gerrard.

    According to others, Keane was on a different level to Gerrard

    According to some, and this includes Jamie, from what i can see, Gerrard was a great player, but not as good as quite a few players who played for the dominant sides of the time.

    In my view, Scholes is the closest to Gerrard I've seen, less versatile but better in some aspects such as passing. Sometimes people's view of who's the best is different to your own, but that doesn't make them right and you wrong, it depends on the weight each individual places on various aspects of a player. By the way, Scholes was rarely, if ever captain of Manu- what does that say about his influence on other players?

    As for keane, a more embittered ex player, I've yet to see. Never thinks he's in the wrong.

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  114. By profession, I am a scientist, biologist in fact, and I work with stats, that is what I was pointing out, cold, hard stats. I have to admit, I am not a fan of England, my parents are English, I am Australian, so support Australia, but also support Holland and Spain because of the way they play their football. Unfortunately, England has the players to make it in tournaments skill wise, but lack the tactical nous that Holland, Spain, Germany have. With the right coaches, this "Golden Generation" could have been world beaters, but instead they were underachievers.

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  115. This is the trouble I have with Jamie quoting Keane's PL record as evidence of playing superiority over Gerrard

    By the way Matt Le Tissier was far more influential than Keane for Southampton, and in my opinion a better player overall

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  116. This isn't as cut and dry as you say. There is depth, coaches in the past have shown that, but when they bring in a player or players outside the Golden Generation, they get ridiculed. Hodgson chose Kelly ahead of Ferdinand for the Ueros, and what happened? He was ridiculed for it.

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  117. Even though Garcia was our top scorer during that campaign? Garcia also had a knack of scoring very important goals, so yes, he went missing during a lot of games, but he scored goals too, so he was an integral part of our winning side. And try having an intelligent discussion without hurling insults.

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  118. There is no depth, in terms of quality.

    They have been picking Lampard and Gerrard together for the last 4/5 managers and plenty of fans have ridiculed this and the continuation of the Golden Generation in the last few years. Hence for a example a lot of people think Wilshere is the next messiah, Oxlade is the new wing hope, etc. So I don't agree with your implied notion that they get ridiculed for picking outside the golden generation, especially in recent times. Hodgson has picked over 40 players since he took charge, 40 players. Barely a fuss over that.

    The Rio Ferdinand situation was more to do with the way the situation was handled (like the train incident, etc). Very little to do with whether Ferdinand should have been picked or not, it was to do with the way he was treated.

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  119. Aaagh! I did not compare Keane and Gerrard in the article! I don't know where you get this stuff from.

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  120. Sadly, football isn't a exact science. Stats are useful but it isn't the be all and end all in every single aspect of the sport.

    In relation to youth coaching, that could have made a big difference to what see now. But in terms of senior coaches and these players in their 20s, it would be a struggle even for the best of managers.

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  121. Of course Le Tiss was more 'apparently' and 'obviously' influential as he was the only decent player they had (apart from puppy Shearer. They weren't that good together though) and everything, absolutely everything went through him. Letting him shoot willy-nilly (boy did he score some lovely long shots). Seen the state of Shipperley lately? He has piled it on!

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  122. You say 'one man team legend'. That is a bit silly in my book because a legend isn't true but it certainly is true that Gerrard carried Liverpool on his back for a hell of a long time. Of course, he can't do it now and injuries have reduced him to only a fraction of his former capacity, but he WAS Liverpool for ages, at least as far as making anything happen was concerned. He won the European Cup for us and the F.A. Cup against West Ham - certainly not Benitez with his crap team selections.
    I go back to '66 and would say Gerrard at his best was the foremost midfielder I've seen at the club.

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  123. "Gerrard was much, much more influential." I like the way you totally swerved the main point of my last point. Yes Garcia was influential, but Gerrard was much, much more influential.

    And stop being so sensitive, I told you to engage your brain before replying. If you take that as an insult then you're in for a shock during the rest of your sheltered life.

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  124. Is this the same Roy Keane who walked out on his country during a world cup and who deliberately injured another player ending his career?? Who would actually listen to the views of such a sh*t bloke???

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  125. This is a disgracefully written article. Very very poor, I'm more than surprised to read this on a Liverpool website. To say that Gerrard doesn't improve players around him is a stupid opinion - I think the majority of players who have played with him would completely disagree with your point. The likes of Torres, Suarez, Alonso, Leiva etc. would all feel that Gerrard greatly improved their game. As for the fact that he has never won a premier league title making him only a good player and not a great one, well that is incredibly ignorant. Football is evidently a team game and so to judge one player on his footballing achievements in a team environment is just idiotic. A terribly written article by an ignorant moron.

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  126. i believe you was lol

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  127. Stevie is a great player, due to his style of play it is hit or miss. Yes there as been too many risky passes played but that`s in his DNA and i dont`t agree he as not been great for England, me personally I think he has been England`s best player over the last 3 years now, he as often played better for England than he has for Liverpool, due to him having more time on the ball. This is from a Liverpool fan.

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  128. because irish tend to be on the mad side. end of. get out more

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  129. Oh I do get out quite a bit and funnily enough, I've been to Dublin for a few times for consultancy work for AIB. They are no more mad than people here in England. Great fun and chilled people, most of the ones that I met. Nice little own goal by you there, with the 'get out more', well done(!) No wonder The Sun, Daily Mail, etc, with their rubbish sensationalising and stereotyping, have such a high readership, when there are people like you who do the same. Cheerio.

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  130. roy keane eire capt !!short memory went to the world cup didn t like the training camp didnt like mick macarthy ..fu*ked off home .the man is a disgrace

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  131. Stevie Gerrard is a great player for Liverpool , but I agree with keane that he's behind the likes of scholes and vieria. Even Alonso said scholes was the best midfielder of the last 20 years.

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  132. If stats are important, Frank lampard is better than all 3 players. Xavi, Alonso ,zidane all say scholes is the best midfielder of the last 20 years. Vieria and henry say scholes is the best players in the premiership ever! Gerrard is a great player for Liverpool , but he's a level below scholes and vieria

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  133. Gerrard also said this week that scholes is the best players he's played with for england.

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  134. First of all Gerrard is a great footballer, at times has performed world class and at the top of his game for a year or 2 was prob in the top 10 players in the world.

    However, as a centre midfielder he isn't as good as scholes or viera were, or keane for that matter. His mazy and swashbuckling runs, whilst easy on the eye always left gaps in the midfield. His eye for the Hollywood pass also took away from the midfielders around him. He prefers to shoulder more of the burden on the team, because he was a good player this made him look good. Often to the detriment of the team. Occasionally to the benefit of the team.

    Unfortunately it is a team game.

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