9/26/2012 04:17:00 pm

Valencia incident: Proof that Mark Halsey was right to give Man Utd a penalty...?

Despite the valiant efforts of Brendan Rodgers' ten-man team, Liverpool crashed to an undeserved 2-1 defeat to Manchester United last Sunday, with United grabbing the victory as a result of a controversial penalty awarded by Mark Halsey. Liverpool fans across the globe condemned Halsey's decision, vehemently arguing that there was no contact between Glen Johnson and Antonio Valencia, but having viewed the replay dozens of times in slow motion from various angles, I think it's clear that Halsey actually made the right decision.

Believe me, it gives me no pleasure to admit that, and I'm sure I'll be slated by fans for seemingly backing Man United, but the truth is truth, and I believe that fans have a duty to be fair and objective wherever possible, even when it comes to the club's fiercest rivals. Watch the footage again:

* Johnson's legs make no contact with Valencia.
* There's no heel-clipping, but:
* Johnson clearly tugs the Ecuadorian's shirt.
* Upon release the shirt, Johnson's forward momentum pushes his hand into AV's back.
* Both of these things combined caused AV to lose momentum and fall over.



Viewing the footage objectively, the shirt-tug is as clear as day. In the image below, you can see the three distinct creases in Valencia's shirt made by Johnson's tugging:

Photobucket

Those creases don't just appear out of thin air; something needs to create them, and in this case, it was Johnson tugging at Valencia's shirt. If not, how can such pronounced creases be explained?

Given the way Valencia hit the deck, the only thing that can explain his strange trajectory is a shirt pull, combined with a push to the back, and it only takes a minor tug in full-flight to produce the desire effect.

People will argue that the touch (Tug + push) were not enough to cause Valencia to fall over, but it should be remembered that Johnson sprinted like a madman to get back and cover, building up huge momentum, so by the time he got into the box, there would've been quite a bit of force behind him. Indeed, he collided with Pepe Reina, taking both himself and the Spaniard out of commission.

Additionally, the following point should be considered: When Johnson's shirt tug/push happened, Valencia had one foot off the ground readying for a shot, which means it would've been easier for him to lose his balance.

I don't believe Valencia dived. What would be the point? He was a millisecond away away from shooting, and probably would've scored, so it makes no sense.

Liverpool didn't deserve to lose the game; the Reds hammered United and were by the far the better team on the day, but putting all bias and anti-United sentiment aside (of which I have lots!), it's only fair to concede that Halsey made the right decision.

Jaimie Kanwar






150 Comments :

Jinl said...

Wow

Septimus_severus said...



WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ANFIELD CAT?

THIS FAR MORE IMPORTANT .......

United123 said...

We know youre only saying this to draw attention to your failing, shitty little website. It was clearly never a penalty in a million years. Oh and im a united fan

Sdgfsgf said...

Fair play to you, at least you don't wear liverpool coloured glasses like the majority of fans i know. If there were more of you around the world would be a better place

sammylee said...

If Liverpool think they are only loosing because of referees, then their problems will only continue.

Arebee said...

Pathetic, do you think the world needed you to prove that he put his hand on his back, we could all see that. The point is it's not a foul, imagine a free kick was given every time that miniscule amount of contact was made on an opponent. If this is your standard for a foul, then why not point out the stone dead penalty Agger should have had. Everyone knows there was contact but the fact is Valencia went down extremely easily, something I have seen you slate our players for constantly

Tornike Khomeriki said...

From what I see, that pull is not enough to bring a grown man down - Valencia just spreads his legs, which allows him to fall. He could have left his legs (specifically his right let) on the ground, and no amount of pull (especially such a light one) would have brought him down.

Jaimie K said...

He's gone to London to see the Queen.

Hans said...

I feel Valencia lets himself fall too easily...If he would have scored anyway, he should have at least tried the shot

Jaimie K said...

Arabee - post your views in a civil manner or don't bother at all. I have a different view to you. Deal with it.

RedX said...

Exactly.

Plus if Valencia was really being pulled, he would have fallen backwards in the opposite direction he dived. If you fall forward, you are either tripped or pushed. You can never fall forward if you are being pulled. Defies the laws of physics.

Hence, this picture proves the opposite you are trying to prove. It was a dive.

Jaimie K said...

Fair points. but I have to disagree. The creases in the shirt are deep and pronounced, which means the tug had some force, and when you're running, it doesn't take much to knock someone off balance. I think it's a given that most players go down easily in the box these days when they feel contact, but if Johnson hadn't pulled his shirt, there probably wouldn't have been a penalty.

liverpool4life565 said...

I don't care about the pen. But Evans should of been sent off so should RVP. Referee wasn't consistent with his decisions.

ga Bl said...

I'm in shock, give me a few hours

A A said...

he was already on his way down?

Jaimie K said...

I disagree. Watch the footage again: Johnson pulls Valencia's shirt and his forward Momentum propels his hand into Valencia's back, hence the fall forward. Pull plus hand on back with forward momentum = Valencia off balance.

Owen Pilliner said...

I agree with most articles you say, but on this occasion; I have to say I think you're wrong. He places his hand on his back yes, but I believe Valencia is waiting for contact before going down, that touch is not enough to bring him down. He has a prime opportunity (prior to Johnson arriving) to pass it to Van Persie - doesnt take it ... then bizarrely moves towards Reina and Skrtel, which seems to indicate he wasnt planning on shooting. Then he just waits for Johnson to arrive (places his hand on his back) and he sticks his leg out to catch Johnson. :/

RedX said...

To add to this, Valencia had every reason to dive. When he ignored the unmarked Man.UTD player in the box like he had done two times before in this match, the Liverpool players closed in again on him like they had done before, thereby neutralizing the potential of his attack. This time round, Valencia opted to dive to safe himself fom Fergie's 'hairdryer' and the gullible referee gave him the penalty.

anteater71 said...

The creases are only Valencia's spare tyres. Just kidding.

Jaimie K said...

With respect, how do we know that the touch (which was actually a shirt pull and a push in the back) was 'not enough to bring him down'? That's what LFC fans want to believe, but you have to remember that Johnson was sprinting at full pelt to get back, and the force he'd built up would've (arguably) been enough to knock AV over. It's not like Johnson was jogging, is it? He ended up colliding with Reina, taking both he and the Spaniard out.

Keithjones55 said...

Valencia dived, he chose to go down.
Otherwise why don't players go to ground during the pre-match handshake? After all that's contact too.
Do you honestly believe that a similar contact on him in the post office queue would make his legs splay and send him crashing to the ground? Of course not.
At every moment of every game every player is of the mindset "How can I get a favourable decision from the ref?" And thats what drove him to collapse in a heap.
As Collymore said: it actually needs a lot of force to knock an athlete off his feet; unless tripped from the ground level.

Growler is God said...

Whether there was a pull or not, Valencia went down like a sack of spuds. Suarez also made a meal of his at the other end. Both were penalties. Only one was given. No surprises after Old Red Nose spent all Saturday telling anyone who would listen (including Mark Halsey) how the Stretford Rovers never get penalties at Anfield. Also Luis is getting nothing from any ref at the moment and that is deeply frustrating. All we want is some degree of consistency.

RedX said...

I think you have not understood my terminology.

If you are pushed, the only direction you can go is forward.
If you are pulled (like you are saying Johnson did), you can only fall back.

If Johnson slowed him down so much with the pull that he managed to change Valencia's momentum, then it would have looked much much more violent to stop a run like that. You only have to watch a Judo match to know how hard it is to break an opponents balance by going against his force. I'm also talking from experience here. ;)

Impartial123 said...

ok you got a point for existence of creases which can be there, taking account of the speed of the action. However whether these creases are forcing valencia in an unstable position , I DONTKNOW. BY THE WAY IT'LL BE FAIR ON YOUR PART TO GO AND DO SUCH AN ANALYSIS ON THE OBSTRUCTION OF MR EVANS ON SUAREZ I THINK.
WHY DONT YOU GO AND DO IT MR JAIMIE KANWAR? YOU SHOULD IN THE NAME OF FAIRNESS AND TRUTH.
ALSO, I DONT THINK ITS A QUESTION OF (QUOTING YOU) WHATEVER YOU SAID ABOUT LIVERPOOL NOT DESERVING TO LOSE....
BUT HAD SUAREZ BEEN AWARDED THE PENALTY, THINGS COULD HAVE WELL BEEN DIFFERENT BEACAUSE FOOTBALL IS SUCH A GAME MR JK THAT EACH EVENT DEPEND ON THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE PRECEDING ONES.

Rocky said...

So Valencia took a bad touch and took it too wide to tighten the angle for his shot which Reina had well covered, so explain why Valencias right leg flies out to the side in a weird (sky dive like) way??? It was a dive no doubt about it, there's no excuse for the poor defending by Johnson (needless sliding tackles), he hurt Agger in the first challenge then could've injured Reina with the second tackle, scandalous... Agger was exposed by a poor pass from Suso in the first place, but Skrtel and Reina did a great job making it difficult for Valencia in the box. Suso was also at fault for the first goal, he didn't track the run of Rafiel. I think Suso will be a great in the future but still has alot to learn on the defensive side of the game

PolishRed said...

I'm not going to be sucked into a debate whether the contact was enough or not to bring a grown man down but I wonder where the ref was situated? Could he actually see the "shirt pull". Another thing which annoyed me about the ref was if it was a penalty then Suarez should have also won us one and if Shelvey had to go so did Evans a RVP for their challenges. You can't referee one way and not the other.

Jaimie K said...

No, I have understood your terminology.

There was a shirt tug then a push. Combined, they are enough to knock Valencia off his axis.

In Judo, your opponent is expecting attack, therefore balance is a conscious priority. In this case, Valencia couldn't see Johnson bearing down on him, and he had one leg off the ground to take the shot when the tug/push happened, thus explaining the lack of balance.

Jaimie K said...

He seriously needs to hit the gym then!

Jaimie K said...

I agree with you re Suarez - Evans made contact with his boot, not the ball, ubt Suarez did his usual thing of tripping over the trailing leg for effect.

Rereeeerewww said...

i think you ar trying to be hero....come on men ...do you think premier leauge is place for peace football...most of the time you will see how players touching, pushing and do all kind of body work...so its stupid to say that was the issue for penalty...valencia is not angel...he is playing devil...he knows how to act well as AF doing ...

Growler is God said...

Can I just add (on a completely different point) that if what I am reading this afternoon is accurate (assuming it's not 1st April) that Kelvin McKenzie is utterly beneath contempt.

Pcoleman said...

How you think this is enough to bring him down is behind me. Yes there may have been a LITTLE pull of jersey or even maybe a clip of the heels. But to say this was enough to bring him down is beyond me. What this shows me is that Valenica actually was about to take another touch around Pepe but decided to go down. You seem to be praising this but slate it when Liverpool players do. It 100% was not enough conact to hit the deck. But I guess a pull on jersey (small or big) is a peno but the last few secs clearly show the refs view and could never have seen that. It was unlucky if you ask me....don't believe in all this Utd and refs bullsh8t that goes on....

Benko15 said...

i dont think he dived just a milisecond to shooting he wouldve scored it makes no sense ...Jaimie u talking like you started watching football that day how many atimes have we seen players go round a keeper then dive theatrically and lookin at it Valencia knew he had lost a chance to score so he made a meal of it ..all am sayin is that he had no guarantee of scoring so any contact he would go down its a very very soft pen. if Hansley got it right but what about the 1 that really was and wasnt given or are we looking at individuals if its Suarez he dived Valencia or Young nop its a pen..incidents on the pitch must be viewed in isolation and not within a wider context that includes preconceived notions about individual players. In short, and lets not dress this up – even Gerrard is suggesting that Suarez does not get penalties when he should because referees have already decided he is a cheat...in other words there not doing there Job

Sig said...

The "creases", upon which this whole explanation hinges, are actually Johnson's fingers, as seen clearly at around 38-39 secs into the video. A visit to Specsavers might be a good idea.

Jaimie K said...

You are not being objective. You are allowing your pro-Liverpool bias to get in the way. Obviously, a biased LFC fan would argue that there was not enough force to take Valencia down, but you don't know that. It's equally possible that there *was* enough force, is it not? You can't categorically state that's not a possibility.

You should also consider that at the time of the contact, Valencia had one foot in the air ready to shoot. I'm sure you would agree that it's infinitely easier for someone to lose balance when they're only standing on one leg...?

VermHat said...

I'm not denying that there was contact in his back, but that is a soft pen. If that happened on Suarez, and we got a pen, United fans would go mental. Fair enough if pens are always going to be given for that kind of infraction, but 9/10 that will not be given. That's why I think the grievance is legitimate.

As for 'why would he dive?' - he had the keeper on top of him, was fairly wide and we had 3 people getting back onto the line (can't remember when exactly they arrived, but they were there by the time he fell, which suggests at least one of them would have been in a good position to block it).

RedX said...

It's very unlikely that such a sudden change in momentum caused his fall. Valencia's speed would have been visibly slowed down by the first pull. I think there was some shirt tugging, but Valencia shrugged that easily, otherwise, he would have fallen sideways and backwards, especially, as you mentioned, on one leg.

Rock said...

He decides to go down. Much like Gerrard once did in may 2005.

Keithjones55 said...

Did Valencia go down during pre-match handshake? After all that was as forceful as anything Johnson did?

Jaimie K said...

Fingers? Give over. He must have the longest fingers in the world then, or clown hands.

Gilsby33 said...

So why did valencia get a pen and suarez just got ignored by the ref when there was more contact on suarez than on valencia. I can't believe that you have gone down to creases in the victim's shirt.... come on. It should still be contact and penalties should be judged on the amount of contact, not if there is the slightest contact. Suarez should have at least two legitimate pens so far this year. Mate are u really an LFC supporter???? cause all u ever do is slate everyone.

Chirag Vyas said...

You are right. This was uncalled for, extremely naive.

James Cooper said...

I play a lot of sunday league and there's no way a shirt pull like that would bring a player down. There's very little motion on the shirt. Halsey got a lot wrong on the day but the best thing we can do is take the positives (Suso, Sterling and Stevie G's excellent performance) and move on.

Bobby said...

@Jamie K
Well done for admitting something which must be a bitter pill for a scouser to swallow! As a manc I will return by saying Liverpool were the better team by far on Sunday however if you dont take your chances you pay later!!

Daniel2 Mock said...

Johnson committed two penalties:
1. When he clipped Valencias heel that knocked him off balance
2. When he pulled downwards on his shirt
When you are running forwards and are pulled downwards then you fall forwards. Perhaps he could have stayed on his feet but he felt the FOUL and went down. Not a dive.
Can't understand how people think Evans should have been sent off. He went in with his side foot and got the ball in a great challenge. Shelvey didn't go for the ball and went straight into Evans studs up in a potential career ender. Evans did nothing wrong because even though people say e went in two footed, his other leg was no where near Shelvey so not even a yellow for Evans. Suarez could have had a penalty but that was 50/50 and maybe RVP should have had a yellow. Some people are massively deluded here.

Jaimie K said...

You could be right about the momentum thing - this is all just speculation after all; we don't know if there was enough force either way. I still think the tug/pull was enough to make him lose balance though.

Jaimie K said...

Right. I'm not an LFC supporter because I don't agree with you. If you want someone to validate your ego and your views, go to some other site where groupthink rules, and posters just follow the mob. And who have I slated, exactly? Valid criticism is not slating.

Wood said...

I agree, Jamie - that hand in the back was enough.

But - could you not also collect and show the situations with Agger (pen.claim), Suarez (pen.claim), Suso (AVP lounge) - as well as Evans two-footed lounge into Shelvey

Please - make that statement of balanced documentation.

Arebee said...

sorry if you found my earlier comments uncivil but Jaimie if you concede that it's all speculation then why use the word proof in your title

Jaimie K said...

I've referenced those incidents in other posts. The reason I focused on this one is mainly because this is the incident that enraged fans most, and led to a few idiots being abusive towards Halsey on Twitter.

Arebee said...

I have seen a gentle breeze make creases in shirt, takes only the slightest movement, I see creases in player's shirts when there is no-one near them

RedX said...

Best thing is to agree to disagree then. No harm no foul. :D

Ltown said...

No Jaimie I swear Sig is right. It seems incredible but watch the video in very slow motion and you'll see it's actually Johnson's fingers.

reg_user said...

You're entitled to an opinioin - your problem is that when you have an opinion, you very quickly mistake that opinion as "knowledge". It isn't.

Breslinglenn said...

Ah lads come on. This is nothing short of pathetic! Have none of you ever watched a bloody rugby match in your lives? If all a rugby player had to do to bring a man down is a wee little tug of a shirt then thered be no point in grabbing their legs and having two or three men trying to topple ya. Fuck sake get a grip. Im a Man U fan and saw this and laughed my ass off. Never a peno...but seeing Suarez bucking when he dived was as bad even though he had more of a shout. We were played off the pitch and needed a peno. Result! We got lucky. Mr Halsey your cheque is in the post!!

James said...

Actually those are his fingers. Double check that video

Arebee said...

It's easy to know that the touch was ' not enough to bring him down' . There are endless incidents of him dribbling, (not in the box) and staying on his feet after much heavier contact.

Dan Williams said...

Sorry Jamie but it doesn't look like a tug to me. There is contact to the back, but his fingers are spread upon. His hand slides slightly causing the creases. Without being either of those players will you know what level of force is applied, but I used to play a lot of rugby (yes I know its not football) but when you are running a full tilt players don't go over at a touch (I know there can be a couple of stone difference, rugby players are much stronger and are used to more contact). If the situation were reversed and Johnson was running out of defence a full tilt with the ball he wouldn't go over nor would the player pushing be penalised, he'd shrug it off, so for that reason I have to say it is the wrong decision. A foul should be seen as a foul no matter where it is on the pitch and in this instance there is no infringement.

Stoneleech said...

No way in a million years it was a pen, Valencia lost opportunity and dived legs at weird angles and going down before GJ got anywhere near. Almost as laughable as the Berbatov "there was contact" pen in the FA cup match and if that was the standard there should be a pen at every corner kick this season.

Ltown said...

With all due respect to you Jaimie I think you've got this one wrong.
First of all, Johnson never pulls Valencia's shirt. The creases are actually his fingers. Watch the video in very slow motion and you'll see that. Yes he pushes him slightly but it's certainly not enough do go down the way he did.
When you watch the incident very slowly you realize that Valencia actually runs out of ideas of what to do with the ball, sees Reina coming out on him very fast AND THEN he feels Johnson behind him which makes him choose the easy option ie to go down and earn a penalty instead of wasting a chance.
At the time Valencia could shoot, Reina was only a few inches from him and could very well stop the shot, and even if he hadn't there were already three Liverpool players on the line who surely would have.

Valencia saw that and chose the easy option. End of story.

Wood said...

There are NO excuse for the Idiots - they should be fined heavily!!

But - this incident enrages people, because the other incidents were adjugded just the opposite to the other situations. I have not seen videofootage of the two pen.claims here - neither different angle videos of the Suso or Evans situations. Only Shelveys way to go into Evans has been touched.

So... I wait....

Septimus_severus said...

I'd like to see a premier league table for the Referee's.
Basically , all you do is have a panel review the amount of wrong decisions or correct ones based on Video replay which would sit on a Tuesday afternoon when the Ref's report is handed over.

At the end of the season the Referee's with the lowest points score get relegated to championship.
The Championship referees who score the best get promoted to the Premier League.

This would eliminate those referee's who are biased and constantly make mistakes, it would be a intensive to disregard there bias based on players or clubs reputation.
It would force managers to of all clubs to realise they can no longer influence the ref because the ref is more worried his status than appeasing a manager.

Frankly speaking, there are refs who ARE bias but we have no way of proving it.
We know that ref's get intimidated by Mangers and at certain grounds when they make there split second decisions.

This would stop the Fergusons of this world dead

Impartial123 said...

and yes, btw, Mr Jaimie Kanwar, as far as i can recall you were among the ones to criticise rafa during his last days at anfield urging to replace him etc.

Avandake said...

I agree too anywhere in the field that would have been a freekick so yeah if you foul in the box its Peno. We lost the match by not pushing them enough when we had chances.

Jaimie K said...

And what is your point? Six years into Benitez's reign I argued that he should be replaced. Big deal. He needed to go at that time.

Alanable said...

I think we are all missing the point! In my opinion Valencia was going down even before sufficient contact was made, I also believe Johnson did foul him or was going to foul him either way. Johnson has proven himself to be a liability. Going forward he is great but you don't use a shovel to sweep a floor do you!

Jaimie K said...

In the still image above, Look at the position of Johnson's wrist in relation to the creases. Unless he is freakishly double jointed, there's no way they're fingers. His fingers appear quickly because his hand is still on Valencia's back

Impartial123 said...

we wont argue about the past on the eve of our cup ties. let's get together and hope for the best against wsetbrom today. HoWEVER , I THINK YOU CAN AND MUST POINT OUT IN the NAME OF FAIRNESS, WITH THE SAME EAGERNESS AND QUEST FOR TRUTH, THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH SUAREZ WAS BROUGHT DOWN BY POOR MR EVANS IN THE BOX.
AWAITING FOR YOUR ANALYSIS BACKED BY VIDEO PHOTOS ETC.

choollun chetanand said...

You are an idiot Jaimie K. It is so obvious that its NOT a penalty. It is a fault and a minor one. Watch the specialists and they will tell how thats not a penalty. There is contact but Valencia was losing the ball and its only a small push. Sorry but you are really an idiot. Thank you and You are Welcome.

choollun chetanand said...

That article is just to bias to even consider the author's claim. I quote to some extent(cannot remember exactly but it is the same) what Marcel Desailly said during the Manchester City vs Arsenal match: Ce penalty semble moins credible-which means that the penalty is not obvious at all. I do not know how you saw the crease or whatever things you analysed closely but the fact remained that Valencia tried to went for glory and saw Reina and Skrtel in his way. The rest is history he got a little off his feet which i do not feel is a penalty. And Mr.Jaimie Kanwar prior to this match, Manchester United did obtain a false penalty for a dive. Check your stats the referee was dumb that day. Even the case of Shelvey is debatable. Even Van Persie went two footed. Thank You.

Ltown said...

Nah man look properly! It's his fingers

Impartial123 said...

chetanand you mean evans went two footed? yes?

Petermharris said...

If a foul was given for every time someone touched another players shirt and it created a few creases there would be more stoppages than a game of American football. The grabbing that goes on at every corner and you are picking out the slightest of creases in a shirt. I thought football was a contact sport or at least semi contact.

Chris E said...

We can gripe about decisions that went one way or another all we want but the sad fact of the matter is that Liverpool lost that game because once again, we couldn't capitalise on the dominance of play we had.

Man Utd were barely in the game that first half and if we made a fraction of that count the penalty decisions that were and weren't, and the sending off, would have been little more than an inconvenient footnote to the game.

Dave Mak said...

that doesn't look like creases in his shirt in the video, i think it is actually johnsons hand, watch the video and frame advance, the frame after the one you have posted clearly show it is johnsons hand.

it was less of a penalty claim than our one but still, they get given every week. its the "baised" (intentionally or not) decisions and quality of refereeing i have the problem.

they get a penno and we dont.
shelvey walks evans or van persie don't.

Hmirbel said...

Dear lads. If this is a penalty for some of you then let's cut short, no need for you to call yourself a fair football fan. That's it for me.

Dave Mak said...

forget that it was against the mange...

now have you ever seen gerrard win a penalty in a similar situation?

if you say no, then you either don't watch much football, or are lying to yourself

Herzog said...

Wow you want to be fair and objective. Do you also have a similar analysis of:
Evans-Shelvey tackle including SAFantics on the touchline
Evans tackle on Suarez.
Do you?
I am intersted to see your biews on the two incidents.

BillyDeane09 said...

the ref whether he made a right or wrong decision had to make it in an instant not after viewing extra slow motion replays a dozen times. He made a judgement call and in the eyes of Liverpudlians got it wrong and in the eyes of Utd fans correct. In the eyes of neutrals we got mixed views as we often get with such decisions.
However its over and done with and we need to move on and think about Norwich now

guest said...

Those are not creases on the shirt, those are johnson's fingers. He chased valencia full sprint, and when he got to him he pushed him down, thus the fingers on valencia's back. If you see johnson's arm, it extends to the right, which is where valencia is the side valencia is being displaced to. If you look at valencia's right foot, the foot he is about to shoot with, the foot also moves to the right as an attempt to keep balance. He was displaced to the right and forward because johnson pushed him from behind and knocked him down. All of this can be seen 25 seconds into the video. It was a clear penalty

andy01 said...

I actually don't object to a pen being given if we are going to say that any contact means that a player can go to ground and claim one.

i.e. small amount of contact on Suarez, he does a triple salco with pike and goes down and the whole world says no pen because he made a meal of it. The contact on Valencia didn't knock him over, he felt a touch and fell down. The same people who are claiming not a pen for suarez because the contact is minimal say it is for Valencia. Similar thing happened against Arsenal, Mertasacker grabs Suarez's shirt outside and then again inside the box but apparently that's not a foul as it's on Suarez. There is no consistency at all, either it's only a pen if the contact literally knocks someone down or it's a pen for all and every technical offence.

Evans made contact with Suarez but he dived, Johnson touched Valencia but he also dived, 1 was given 1 wasn't and I've not read any explanation from the ref as to why he made those decisions.

Maxel88 said...

it is easier to watch the slow-mo in HD. valencia's heel WASN'T clipped. valencia wasn't pulled, he was PUSHed, observe the main force of the push is FORWARD. Look for the indent on valencia's back! How do you push something sideways when (jersey's) surface is smooth (absence of friction)? johnson's hand is widespread, how is this a pull? the force from the "tug" resultant from the push shouldn't be enough to "pull" valencia down and sideways(?). observe that valencia raised his right foot but the ball is rolling towards his RIGHT, there is no way to take the shot, but he stretched and falls SIDEWAYS theatrically upon being pushed. Obvious dive. Of course, it is easier to convince yourself valencia is honest.

Guest said...

Dear Jaimie Kanwar,

I am either missing your point completely or you are trying to depict to the readers of this website that you are a Liverpool fan when in fact you are not.

You have every right to think that Valencia did not dive, that the Evans/Shelvey 50/50 tackle was all Shelvey's fault and that both Agger and Suarez dived in the box. You have every right to think so, but it is crystal clear that:

1. Evans attempted tackle on Suarez was a crystal clear foul, he did not touch the ball but touched Suarez's foot. Common sense to me, irrespective of your earlier comment on Suarez "but Suarez did his usual thing of tripping over the trailing leg for effect" ? It's a penalty ,full stop.

2. Shelvey's on Evans was a two footed challenge, I agree, but Evans' on Shelvey was exactly the same if not a bit worse to be honest. In my opinion it's a derby game, both players need to win the ball, both made a mistake in lunging with two feet, but both means both! Either send off both, caution both, or let the play go on. I can't see 2 white papers and say 1 is white and the other is green.

3. Valencia's penalty was simply not a foul. There was no way in the World, that Reina bumps into Johnson with Valencia out of the way and you say he was pushed. Johnson is running towards the post from the touchline, Valencia is running towards the post from the touchline, and Valencia gets pushed towards the touchline!? Now there is no Physics that can ever explain something like that happenning. I cannot confirm it was a dive, as if you see the replay, Valencia tried to dribble Reina on the outside and could have slipped, so I cannot attck Valencia and say it was a dive, but it was surely not a foul. If that is a foul, than god forbid you refereeing any football games, as it would be littered with fouls/penalties in 90minutes of play.

Banoog said...

A few points:
1. The '3 distinct creases' are actually Johnson's 3 distinct fingers
2. It's very difficult to pull/tug someone's shirt with an open hand
3. I've also watched the footage over and over again from multiple angles and the only contact between Johnson and Valencia is the hand on Valencia's back, which in no way is sufficient to warrant a penalty. As someone else said, if a penalty was awarded for every simple contact in the box then there would be 100s of penalties awarded every match.
4. Yes, I am a Liverpool fan, but the ref had so many major decisions to make in that match and got ALL wrong. Why credit the ref for seeing something so subtle (which actually didn't happen), when he failed to see that Suarez got the ball before Evans and should have been awarded a penalty. If it's then not a penalty, why didn't he then further discredit his performance by booking Suarez for simulation?

Rob said...

Fingers. I agree.

Davph said...

I am embarrassed by a self appointed event analyst who declares himself to be '100% behind Rodgers & FSG' - but not 100% so.

Before that he was against Rafa. When will this push/pull person go and do something useful with his life.

True Liverpool fans should ignore Mr 100% and let him ramble on to himself. He will find something objectonable in what he has said earlier.

You were right about the Sun. Do the right thing again.

Impartial123 said...

CAN FA INVESTIGATE ABOUT THE REF'S DECISIONS IN THIS MATCH?

Impartial123 said...

IS IT POSSIBLE (AND WHY NOT?) FOR FA TO INVESTIGATE ABOUT THE REF'S DECISIONS IN THAT MATCH?

Max is back said...

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Players who dive need to be banned and fined for ruining matches. Valencia clearly dives. He should be punished.

It is time for decisions like this to be reviewed after the match and the the guilty parties be punished for making a farce out of football and that includes punishing the referees. Only then will all this BS come to an end.

I don't want my son seeing Valencia falling over for nothing. When my six year old asks "Daddy, why did he fall over" then how can I say he was pushed?

PUNISH THOSE WHO RUIN FOOTBALL!!!

Chrisconnor48 said...

Lets be clear about this.. There is NO shirt pull !!

We are all watching the same clip and I along with many others can see that it is CLEARLY Johnsons fingers . Sorry but the jibe about 'clown' hands is just silly.

Explain to me how creases in a WHITE jersey can BLACK ?? Unless said 'creases' are the hand of a blackman which I think we can all agree Glen is .. Furthermore the 3 creases you refer are the gaps between Johnsons fingers .. if there were a tug as you suggest Johnson would have had to make a fist of some sort in order to grab some of his jersey.. There is NO evidence of this.

What really marks this out as a dive is that the split second before Johnson PLACES (its neither a push nor a pull) his hand on AV's back, his right leg is set in motion to have a strike on goal.. the instant he feels Johnsons hand 'placed' on his back he abandons the strike , spread eagles his legs and goes to ground.. Surely if it were a legitimite attemt on goal he would have had some swipe at the ball before been bundled over as you suggest.

With regard to Johnsons taking Reina out of it .. Reina was already slidding in when he collided with Johnson.. Johnson did not take him out ..

I find it staggering that you can't see that this is a BLATANT dive..

Banoog said...

Referees are not to be undermined, so doubt it. Referees never seem to be routinely held accountable for the decisions they make. The performance has to be truly and totally woeful for them to be demoted or penalised in some way. Whilst Halsey's performance was poor I'm not sure that another ref would have made all the correct decisions.

w3efy said...

I cant believe you sados are still arguing the point... it was 4 days ago!! Move on, all the point proving in the world wont chnage the result!

gizzard said...

the "world" will be a better place ...stupid,...if it happened to suarez , they will say there was contact but he went down toooo easily..stupid.

Hdgj7 said...

typical your just some foreign johnny jumping on the l.f.c bandwagon making money out of our club by being contreversial,i have been sent to this article through another website do me a favour, SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL TEAM WILL YOU"

Marlin Steyn said...

The creases that you are referring to are in fact not creases. Watch the video properly. Those are Johnson's three fingers on Valencia's back. Get you facts straight before making accusations about "a clear shirt-pull".

mpk said...

Johnson is running at top speed he can't pull Valencia back while his own momentum is twice as fast as Valencia's. It would be more believable if you'd said he pushed him down (but even that would be only because Johnson couldn't hit the brakes to avoid making contact).

Zanatos said...

See for me it didnt enrage me at all. We all have the luxury or freeze frames and slow motions. Refs do not, at the speed it happened it did look like Glen clipped his heals. It turns out Valencia did dive. But the ref doesn`t have all the footage we have. He has a few seconds to make up his mind on something he only sees once at full speed.


What does wind me up though, is the poorness of one sided calls he made, Shelvey should have been sent off, again im happy with that, but so should have evans, and yes we should also have had a pen.


It may seem like blaming the ref for our loss, but truth is them big calls are what made us lose the game.


Now as it stands Refs will always mess up, as its so fast paced. However I would be well up for retrospect analysis of all games in the prem just like they do in some other sports. It dont slow down the game, as it happens after. We still would have lost, but at least then refs would see when they got it wrong and maybe learn from it. Right now Hasley cost us 3 points, and in return he gets no punishment from the FA and just carries on reffing. Evans would then also serve a ban, and also players reps would be built on truths. I always remember when it was rumoured refs were told to watch Torres as he dives, and he used to get kicked sensless week in week out and never got anything his way from the ref. Maybe retro stuff would show refs actually stop judging him if they were also given a short report on what big calls they got wrong.

nick1811 said...

Jaimie, it's definitely his fingers. First of all, the 'creases' are too straight and perfect to be actual creases. Second of all, you don't have to be double jointed to do what Johnson did, just simply out stretch your arm and rotate your hand to the right. That's what Johnson did. Third of all, the 'creases' are too actually deep (and too brown) to be so. Creases on Valencia's shirt would have been way less distinct and more of a grey colour instead the exact colour of Johnson's skin.

Jaimie K said...

You could be right about that, Nick. Either way, it's clear that Johnson exerted a level of force on Valencia that was arguably enough to throw him off balance. There's another angle which shows Johnson actually had both hands on Valencia's back; I'll add that to the article tomorrow.

DK LFC said...

The ariticle reminds me of a scene from the movie JFK. No penalty he falls over before Johnsons body is in a position to take him to the ground.

Liverman said...

valencia just spreads it like a whore !

RedWill said...

I think everybody here can see its Johnson's fingers and even Jamie K can probably see it now its be pointed out however he doesn't seem to be able to back down about the shirt pull.

Valencia realised he run down a dead end as Reina and Johnson had crowded him out and went down, if you look at the option Valencia had once Johnson arrives you can see why he went down rather than looking like he squandered a golden chance.

RedWill said...

Why are you still stating it was a shirt pull when people have pointed out to you this is not the case. The creases are his fingers and it would be some feat to pull a shirt with your fingers wide open.

anteater71 said...

While you obviously didn't get my joke, you are probably right.

Money said...

if that is the way u see it... Suarez should get loads of penalty in every game...
just mere touching is not enough to warrant a penalty... why don't u see the suarez incident...

Money said...

if pulling shirt gives away a penalty... u gets it in every corner kick...

Gary LFC said...

You obviously haven't played football before Jaimie. I play 11 a side and if someone dived like that they would get a lot of abuse and just told to get up. Just because they are professionals doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Confused said...

If mr.kanwars theory was correct, then ALL contact of this nature would be fouls, which obviously isnt so. There might have been a tug or push, but was far too soft to have warranted a penalty. The foul on agger was more of an impact. But what do know...im sure mr.kanwars next article will be: " Proof that Mark Halseys decision was correct not to award Liverpool any fouls in their favour"

Money said...

only Reina's blunder would give away a goal in that situation... Valencia is off to the side of the goal post... to score from that angle... need Reina's help... u play football or not..

jbmu said...

The game's over. Liverpool lost. Again. Move on.

Sig said...

I got your joke, just made the mistake to post as a reply to your post instead of Jamie's :-)

raul said...

jamie please stop writing articals on liverpool.. get a life and leave the fans and club alone please!!

MUFC TID said...

WAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAA YOU ALL SOUND LIKE BABIES CRYING OVER SPILT MILK............... it was a penalty, if he didnt challenge he would have scored anyway......... your keeper is that sh*t !!!!! LIVERPOOL NEED TO PLAY LIKE THEY ALWAYS DO AGAINST UNITED .... AGAINST THE REST OF THE PREMIER LEAGUE .... AND THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE A CHANCE OF BEATING EVERTON IN LEAGUE........ YOUR AN AVERAGE TEAM FACE IT

Jaimie K said...

Actually,  I have played football to a decent level, and still do to this day.




Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note

-------- Original message --------
Subject: [liverpoolkop] Re: Valencia incident: Proof that Mark Halsey was right to give Man Utd a penalty... | Liverpool-Kop.com

lfcfanynwa said...

You clearly got beat in your own argument its so clear just have some dignity and admit you were wrong

arnij said...

totally disagree,, to me it was never a dive,, but a harsh penalty that should not have been given.

ed said...

You really make an extraordinary effort to attempt making an intellectual argument from something that's as clear as night & day.
Please don't insult the rest of us LFC supporters with this argument as you must probably be the only one trying to justify something that's not.

It was never a pen; period. The ref got it wrong end of

HSM said...

how about the agger penalty and saurez penalty, hasley is crap hope he never refs again,

raziq said...

I agree.

RedDevilMik said...

Although I agree, Valencia definately 'invited' the penalty. In terms of a grown man falling Johnson himself made several attempts to con the referee with his tom daley efforts. SUppose that is what is called Karma. I am a united fan and I agree we were crap on the day but lucky to get the win. Looking forward to the next meet as these matches are what make premiership football so great. So lets not get too hung up and look forward to the next. Which I hope we make a better account of ourselves.

john said...

are you thick he was shooting with his right leg what ya want him to do shoot with his cock.

Kingkenny said...

It takes a big man to admit that it was a foul. I agree with your argument and agree you should speak the truth. Well done.

SA_Red said...

like the cheap manc whore he is!

Sanju Senjeet said...

Valencia was always falling even though (and before) Johnson's hand gently rested on Valencia's waist. You are entitled to your opinion but if the majority of the other persons' opinion differs to yours, then surely you may be wrong.

DiskoBiskit54 said...

No Jamie; Youre wrong in this case.


The tug on the shirt is clearly there, but its too little impact to bring Valencia down in that way.


And the argument of 'why would he dive when he could just shoot' ?!?
Utter nonsense cause players dive in virtually every game! Does it matter whether they are in a shooting position or not ?


Valencia dived. And that is the state of ManUre at the moment; Just like Chelski, having to dive to beat local rivalry that they clearly were outclassed in.

ikcl said...

There was a slight push, only Valencia will know if it was enough to bring him down. I still can't see how the ref can give the penalty in real time though. It may well have been the correct decision but I can't see how Halsey has arrived at that decision.

Wood said...

I still wait ....

steve said...

and you morons still think this arseole is not a manc winding you up...Lol

RTCpebble said...

Get over it Tornike--seriously, move on.

RTCpebble said...

RedX....the man was in the perfect positon to score why would he just dive.....Additonally, we are not talking about Suarez here, Valencia doesn't have a history of cheating!!!

RTCpebble said...

I practice Judo and what you state is nonsense

RTCpebble said...

Such an expert--have you ever even played this sport

RTCpebble said...

A voice of reason!

Dragon said...

you will not fall backwards from a pull if you are running forward at x mph....it will however be enough to destabilise you and make it easier for you to fall forward......please don't quote the laws of physics if you don't understand the laws of physics. Jaime is right, if the pull causes him to lose stability then even a slight push from Johnson (because of his uninterrupted momentum) will be enough to topple Valencia running was moving at great speed. At least Jaime is being objective

Martin Allcock said...

Johnson's hand is seen on Valencia's back and it is actually a push just as Valencia is about to take a shot that forces him to go down. Even a slight push with that much momentum behind it would be enough to push him over.

SteveP said...

In order to award a penalty the referee has to be certain that there was a foul committed. If 100 or so people on this site cannot decide after watching a slow motion replay then how could the ref decide it was a certain foul after only seeing it in real time?

Paul Lightfoot said...

Diveing cunt

yuvank seegoolam said...

When u r push while running u try to balance ur weight on stronger foot so as to counter the forward move n you dn,s spread the leg

choollun chetanand said...

yes...both went for the challenge...But the ref position was in the direction of shelvey...even if shelvey got a red the van persie tackle was also a two footed challenge so why no red cards?
These type of tackles are so bias: sometimes they give red or other times a yellow. I do think a yellow would have beein suitable just to calm the situation and from the footage shelvey went for the ball.

Ben said...

You people have a memory like a goldfish, did you not read it all properly? The forward momentum propelled Johnson into Valencia, the effect of Valencia preparing to shoot hence the raised leg coupled with Johnson's hand pushing him made him fall. As evidence shows the is a shirt pull. Redx- i don't understand your logic, how often do you see a shirt pull make a player go backwards? Surely you watch enough football to realise it a player's shirt is pulled the player is running fast and therefore the total force of going forwards outweighs the total force of the shirt pull, hence the player going forward or to the side. it's common sense. Valencia did not dive, end of story, get over it. Man United were by far the worse team on the pitch and did not deserve to win in the slightest but you have to see these incidents in the plain sight of day and remove all bias. Jaimie, i appreciate your analysis - Utd fan.

greg said...

Seems funny Halsey was able to notice this in normal motion yet failed to recognize Liverpools penalty shout and Evans 2 footed lunge strange that.

Mike said...

How many judo matches do you see where they are running at 20kmh?! The denial is so blatant to see. If you read it again he says its a shirt pull AND A PUSH TO THE BACK!

Mike said...

Racist

anon said...

jaimie 'columbo' kanwar, football detective.

Zanz Kedah said...

Every people in the world already know that Man.United is football terrorist clubs who will do every thing planning to win.Alex is the biggest valiant because he will making dirty minded war or any provoke to disturb your emotion.With a little help from reffree behind the games,no matter mufc will get 20 cup of tittle.Controversion to help get winning.Majority mufc players is the cheater.....king of diving.Congratulaion for reffree because you are very stupid to believed jackass theater.

Barringer said...

Those "creases" are Johnson's fingers ...

John Williams @johnza_utd said...

Yet more attention seeking from Jamie 'are you sure you're a LFC fan?' Kanwar. It was never a pen, only a one eyed Manc would say that..

John Williams @johnza_utd said...

So because someone does not agree with you they are not being objective? Typical arrogant comment from a one-man blog. You just crave the attention lad. And having the power to delete someone's comment gives you a boner.. Shame you're a failure in every other aspect of your life. You're not even loyal to Liverpool, just yourself and your self righteous pomposity. You don't have a clue about football, you just like the sound of your own voice. You had to set up your own blog cos on real LFC sites everyone thinks you are a cock.....

John said...

Will you stop being so biased to Man Utd please? For example, 20 year ref conspiracy you took about decisions, but there's a DIFFERENCE between good and bad decisions. How many bad decisions over the last decade or so have benefitted Man Utd.23 March 2008 Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool_Mascherano gets sent off for asking why Torres was yellow carded when Rio Ferdinand was kicking him repeatedly. Steve Bennett.21 March 2010 Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool_Valencia dives outside the box to win a penalty. Howard Webb.9 January 2011 Man Utd 1-0 Liverpool_Berbatov dives to win a penalty and Gerrard gets sent off. Howard Webb.15 October 2011 Liverpool 1-1 Man Utd_Hernandez scores from a corner which should have been given a goal kick.23 September 2012 Liverpool 1-2 Man Utd_Valencia dives to win a penalty and Shelvey gets sent off. Agger and Suarez denied stonewall penalties. Evans gets nothing a two footed challenge. Mark Halsey.I also remember Man Utd 4-0 Liverpool_where Man Utd had two penalties and Hyypia got sent off. Mike Riley. Also, you can't have ever played football if you think that 'push' was enough to bring Valencia down for the penalty.

John said...

Will you stop being so biased to Man Utd please? For example, 20 year ref conspiracy you took about decisions, but there's a DIFFERENCE between good and bad decisions. How many bad decisions over the last decade or so have benefitted Man Utd.23 March 2008 Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool_Mascherano gets sent off for asking why Torres was yellow carded when Rio Ferdinand was kicking him repeatedly. Steve Bennett.21 March 2010 Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool_Valencia dives outside the box to win a penalty. Howard Webb.9 January 2011 Man Utd 1-0 Liverpool_Berbatov dives to win a penalty and Gerrard gets sent off. Howard Webb.15 October 2011 Liverpool 1-1 Man Utd_Hernandez scores from a corner which should have been given a goal kick.23 September 2012 Liverpool 1-2 Man Utd_Valencia dives to win a penalty and Shelvey gets sent off. Agger and Suarez denied stonewall penalties. Evans gets nothing a two footed challenge. Mark Halsey.I also remember Man Utd 4-0 Liverpool_where Man Utd had two penalties and Hyypia got sent off. Mike Riley. Also, you can't have ever played football if you think that 'push' was enough to bring Valencia down for the penalty. STOP BEING CONTROVERSIAL FOR GREATER TRAFFIC, ADVERTISING REVENUE AND YOUR OWN FINANCIAL GAINS. YOUR A SELL OUT AND NOT A REAL LIVERPOOL FAN.

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