21 Mar 2012

Wimbledon legend: Dalglish is *right* to prioritise the Carling Cup. Agree?

Ex-Wimbledon star Robbie Earle recently argued that someone at Anfield needed to 'lose their job' over the Luis Suarez-Patrice Evra handshake fiasco, but he's put his ire aside to throw his support behind Liverpool manager Kenny Dalglish.

The debate over the club's priorities is raging at the moment: what is more important - winning domestic cups, or finishing 4th in the league?

Dalglish believes it's 'disrespectful' to gauge progress by looking at the league table, and he's made it clear that his priority lies with winning two domestic trophies, a view that some Liverpool fans - myself included - find concerning.

Earle is squarely in Dalglish's corner though, and although he admits that Liverpool 'are not ready yet to challenge the very top teams', he argues that winning the Carling Cup and the FA Cup will buy Dalglish the time needed to bridge the gap. He told ESPN:

"Liverpool have decided this season that cup competitions are going to be their focus; that's where they have a good chance of winning silverware, and I totally agree with Kenny on this.

"It buys him time, and gives a little bit of success to the club and the fanbase, and then he can start another two year build to get the team ready to challenge for the title.

"There's a building process going on, but it's always helpful if you can bring in a bit of silverware and get people onside".


As regular readers will know, I totally disagree with the idea that winning domestic cups should be the priority this season. I also dispute the idea that Liverpool are not ready to challenge the top teams; results against suggests otherwise, and the investment of over 100m in the squad should've been enough to at see the the club challenging for - at the bare minimum - 4th place.

Former Newcastle goalkeeper Shaka Hislop disagreed with Earle's view, and took a more realistic view, arguing:

"Winning the Carling Cup and FA Cup would not be enough for Liverpool, and Kenny has missed the mark in trying to defend Liverpool's poor league showing this year"

Jaimie Kanwar


53 comments:

  1. Why is Shaka more realistic? I think Kenny has done the right thing because there was no way we were going to do any better in the league without sacrificing next season. The cups are a good way to get back into Europe, have something to show for the season and prove to the new squad they have what it takes to beat anyone. We could have played our best team more consistently outside Suarez's 8 match ban, but that would defeat the purpose of our massive spend which had 2 purposes. The squad needed strength in depth, so our absolute worst players have to be up to scratch. Secondly, we had to meet the homegrown quota for senior players. Once our homegrown squad players are sorted, we can concentrate on fine tuning the squad. Unfortunately, the sudden influx of signings must be sorted before we can use them to their potential and I'm sure the idea is to have such a squad at our disposal ASAP. We want our newbies to be league ready as part of a team and that's not going to happen without them getting games. It is costing us points, but we'd like to be challenging sooner rather than later.

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  2. Jaimie's mind: where coming 4th and probably still not being competitive in the CL is success and actually winning stuff is a step backwards.

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  3. Jamie... if you were manager and wanted to keep your current players inspired to do well with what is left to the season then what would you be saying? Perhaps that is what Kenny is doing. Let's wait 'till the summer transfers to see if Kenny has it heading in the right direction or is he really believing his own words.

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  4. As a fan you should want to see your club winning trophies, after all that's what the whole sport is about. Finishing 4th has no effect on the trophy cabinet. The whole squad has been rebuilt and Kenny has performed a minor miracle to achieve what he has in such a short space of time.

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  5. I can see the argument for both sides to be honest.  But let's not forget that 4th place will allow you to qualify for the 'qualifiers' to get in to the CL. Given that this can be achieved, yes this would be an amazing (although unlikely) achievement.  

    However, is this argument not double sided ? If we aren't ready to challenge for the league (by some way) then surely qualifying for the CL, although bringing in revenue to allow us to compete and 'potentially' make us a more attractive proposition for players - I say 'potentially' as any 'great/brilliant' player would probably be swayed by the bright lights of Spain's one and two, or any of the top 3 from the Premier league - for ambition OR monetary benefit - even in qualifying for the CL, if Man City enter the bidding for a player, then our chance to sign that individual would diminish.

    Given the above - isn't it about winning things too ? So LFC 'qualify' for the CL ... they would inevitably find it tough going (look at Utd, City and Arsenal this year) - I doubt we'd be 'favourites' to actually walk away with the trophy (yes, you have to be 'in it to win it' - but really, we'd be 20+ points off the top of the table even if we made 4th .. so to compete on the grand scale of the CL - with a chance of 'winning' would surely be a tough ask). So Carling Cup AND FA Cup would represent something to shout about I feel.  We've been poor in the league and long term I don't believe Dalglish is the answer - Why we went for Hodgson (and Dalglish for that matter) when someone like Frank Rijkaard is available baffles me.

    But, walk away with this thought: Arsenal will win nothing this year.  Along with either City or Utd - we have one in the bag.  Winning breeds confidence and further success.  This is a 2-3 process - and you HAVE to get it right in the transfer market in order to be competitive .. this is no guarantee, even with money (remember what Souness did with his millions ... Saunders, Piechnik, Byornebye, Kozma, Julian Dicks, Walters , Stewart ... etc

    Dalglish should be afforded one more season - after bringing harmony back to the club - and silverware - he has earned that right.

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  6. Took City £300m and 3 seasons to reach the champions league. Perspective is needed, and winning the cups will breed confidence in our current squad and make us attractive to other players

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  7. Jamie you keep on mentioning the amount we have spent on transfers, but you need to realise we are not the only team to have spent a bit of cash over the last two seasons. The following figures are the net spend from a few clubs over the past two seasons and are lifted from www.transferleague.co.uk: 
    Man city:- 174m
    Chelsea:- 145.5m
    United:- 51.7m
    Liverpool:- 30.2m
    Stoke:- 22.375m
    QPR:- 22.05m
    this added to the fact that most of these teams has superior squads to our prior to this (with the obvious exceptions).  

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  8. Ffilipmitrovic9012:16 pm, March 21, 2012

    Maybe, if we had more luck, we would finish 4th, and then finish 3rd in CL group stage and play EL again. we are not ready for CL. IMO, it's better to win some silverware and continue rebuilding the squad then embarrass ourselves in CL

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  9. You beat me to it, Jamie!! I was going to say the same thing. I will add that City have been the richest club in the world for 4 years now, and only have an FA Cup to show for it.

    I await a response from an apoplectic Mr Kanwar, on how much MONEY City have generated from their Champions League run (if you can call it a "run").I know some "fans" think we have some sort of divine right to be in the Champions League every year, but they obviously forget that Hicks and Gillett systematically stripped the assets of our club, including our better players, and it's going to take a while to build the club up to where we all want it to be again. If we all stick together and hold our nerve, I'm sure things will come good. And we might just enjoy it that little bit more too.

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  10. Must be some sort of good times returning when we discussing which trophies Liverpool should be and shouldn't be winning! Only to sort out that bloody league form out! Both are a priority the world wide coverage of our domestic cup finals is a great advert for the club and can bring in revenue.10 million in England watched the CC final(7 million 2011) and the same again for a FA Cup final broadcast to 160 countries,audience of 500 million can't do the club any harm!

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  11. The City argument is completely false. Where were they in the league before they had millions pumped into the club? Were they a regular top 4/Champions League team like Liverpool? NO.

    Liverpool have a much better starting position than City, and years of CL experience behind them; City do not.

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  12. I wouldn't exaggerate their talents and insult the intelligence of fans by trying to make out that everything is perfect.

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  13. Well, put it this way, winning the Carling Cup so far has just about managed to stave off some of the heat coming Kennys way. The argument is also strengthened by the fact that we could get to the FA Cup final and win that also, but i don't think we will tbh, and IF the Carling Cup (probably the most dour and uninspiring final i have ever seen) is all we have to show for a poor season....then he should be judged on that and be made accountable.....

    Fact is Kenny has made some very baffling decisions re player line ups substitutions ands general tactics this season, stuff that NO other manager would have got away with so lightly.....

    My concern is that this will continue, and im not sure that his handling of players is all that good either, seems that a player gets into some form and starts improving and Kenny benches them....

    That said if we do finish this season with a flourish of form in the league and securing the FA Cup then i think that might be enough to hold off the heavy criticims and calls for accountability that will surely come Kennys way if we don't progress like we should be, onwards and upwards an all that....

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  14. Correct. But the American Gangsters raped our club. And then they systematically undermined a manager who had Liverpool punching well above their weight for 4 or 5 years, a manager who used tactics and motivation to create a team that was infinitely better than its' parts. 

    And all the while he did this on a fairly modest Net spend!A Net spend that, at the time, was comparable with a team like Newcastle. Who got relegated.[Pull pin, and retreat to a safe distance].

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  15. Yeh good argument, KK bought Shay given to newcastle to replace shaka is a flop. shaka does not like KK and this is probably an opportunity to undermine him. I am sure if you asked shaka what would he prefer; to have finished 2nd with newcastle or; never finish in the top 4 and instead of being sub in the FA Cup match against arsenal, he was the keeper and won the game. I bet he would choose to win the FA Cup! My friend is a newcastle fan, he has stated he would swap every top 4 league finish to have been alive to see newcastle win the FA cup or any cup! He also stated that some liverpool fans are arrogant b******s and are lucky enough to have seen their team win a major trophy in their life times. When other fans say this it puts things into perspective. Its like my lad the other day, he was complaining that his Ipod touch was lagging and on the tv was a little kid from nigeria begging some people in a resturant for food!!! Some liverpool fans need to understand that to win anything is a great achievement and i feel privelaged to be a fan and actually seen it with my own eyes and not have to rely on stories from my dad like my friend doesn about the good old days!!!!

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  16. All the Rafa cliches in one post. Bravo :-)

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  17. The 'had to sell to buy' argument is really more of a fact. Or a 'Stat' as you like to call it.

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  18. He's probably still bitter about; "The fourth Official has indicated there will be a minimum of four minutes added time. That's four minutes added ti............"    Oh.

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  19. Great post Philip. And it's about time people started to appreciate just how lucky we are to follow this great club.

    Personally I go to watch Liverpool PLAY, not necessarily to watch them win.

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  20. Kd papering over the cracks with 2 worthless mugs. he has bought rubbish, and sooner or later people are going to say enough is enough.
    his recent comments about how great the new buys have been were a complete joke and fool nobody apart from the rose tinted blind faith brigade.

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  21. 'Our aim in the Premier League is to fight until
    the end for the fourth spot. This club deserves to be in the Champions League
    and that has been our objective since the beginning of the season." Pepe Reina

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2097094/Pepe-Reina-hails-Kenny-Dalglish.html#ixzz1pl0kFHu6

    As always though, when mission failure is obvious, change mission mid stream. Leaders should be judged by the objectives they set at the beginning not at towards the end of a season.

    In this case given fourth spot is a delusion, well, go for FA Cup silverware. But so what? That wasn't the objective to begin with. So BIG FAIL. MOve on Kenny.

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  22. New ambition for next season: win FA Cup, win Carling Cup, win Community Shield or whatever it is called, win Europa League (I'm sure the apologists will hype up this competition, like they have done with Carling Cup) and don't give a damn where we finish in the league(!) I'm just basing this ambition on the apologists' hyperbole about winning the domestic cups and belittling finishing in CL place and playing in the best club competition in the world. 

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  23. There is a difference between Newcastle and Liverpool, in relation to ambition and success. Might be seen as arrogant but that is just the way it is. So its a poor justification to use Newcastle as a example as to why we should be happy with winning a domestic cup trophy over playing in CL. 

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  24. The simple truth is that winning trophies breeds a winning mentality, something that finishing 4th doesn't. Finishing 4th brings money and champions league, both of which attract quality players, but winning finals unites and team and gives them the appetite to want more. Its something you can't quantify. 

    When Ferguson announced he would retire United slumped. Coupled with that the team was overhauled. United didn't win the league for a couple of season's and they lost their winning mentaility, but in 2006 they won the Carling Cup and it galvanised the team. The following year they went on to win the league again.

    I'm not saying we will go on to win the league next season, but winning finals gives the team a winning mentality, and next season they will be all the more hungry for it. The new faces will have a season on under their belt and will be a season wiser.

    Liverpool did spend a £100m on players in the summer and a return on that investment as not been seen yet. Next season with time and trophies and I would expect to see an improvement and then we will see the measure of the team and the manager on which they can and should be judged.

    Wholesale chopping and changing of on and off field staff this summer will not have the same effect as having silverware in the cabinet. I just hope the media and bloggers can be held off long enough so we can see if the team measures up next season.

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  25. We are not ready to win PL either, so we should drop out of PL too(!)

    I love the sound of the CL anthem, the buzz of playing in the best club competition in the world, even if we are not favourites to win it.

    We weren't exactly among the favourites to win 2005 CL (when it started in Sept) were we, so shall we scratch that from the history records as well as melt the trophy that we got for winning it that 5th time? Pfft. 

    I think its rather sad to see people saying/implying we shouldn't bother with CL as we aren't good enough to win. I wonder if they had attitude prior to the start of 04/05 CL.

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  26. Arsenal? Been regulars in top 4 for god knows how long.

    Got to know how to spend wisely. 

    I'd rather we didn't have a high net spend like City if we buy rubbish like Carroll for £35m and Downing/Hendo for £15-20m.

    Spend wisely is more important, not spend more than other teams.

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  27. I always thought that Liverpool FC exists to win trophies? Perhaps that should be amended to: "Liverpool FC exists to chase a cash cow".

    I must admit, I have lost count of the times I've watched my "Liverpool Finish 4th" DVD.......

    Obviously, Sclaus, the objective was always to try to get Champions League football, but our season was derailed in October, and sometimes you have to be pragmatic and take what you can get.

    Even with a Russian oligarch pumping dirty money into them, Chelsea may still miss out, and as a poster said already, Arsenal will win nothing and (god willing) United may finish empty handed as well.

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  28. We were in 2012, not in 1970s.

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  29. Football is now a business so making top 4 and making money is more important than winning trophies. Hang on a minute????

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  30. Almost getting relegated like we almost did under Hodgson? The old top 4 is a myth, city and spurs made it a top 6. Getting back to our old position now is harder than ever with the emergence of those 2, we have no divine right to be there. Of course the city point is valid, it took them a few seasons, ludicrous amounts spent in money but more importantly wages and a complete squad overhaul. It is a re-building process no matter how you look at it and it is only fair to compare us to city, after 12 months of our re-building, we've won more and done it on a more sustainable model

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  31. Almost getting relegated? Don't exaggerate or anything. You don't get relegated in December.

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  32. I appreciate that, Original, but sport should surely be about winning and glory.

    I want to be in the Champions League as much as you do. And I'm sure Kenny feels the same. But we have to accept that getting into that fourth spot is not the shoe-in it was a few years ago. City have emerged over the last few years, Arsenal will always be there or there about, Spurs have been hoarding players for 3 years, Chelsea have infinite resources (at the moment), there is always a team that has an unusually good season (this time it's Newcastle) and United are just bastards.

    And I believe we WERE well on track: winning at The Emirates, Stamford Bridge, Woodison etc. Things just went pear-shaped in October, though I can't remember why....

    Actually, I can. It was that stirring prick Evra.


    !!!!!! (grenade) !!!!!!

    All I'm saying is, One step at a time, eh?

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  33. does kenny not simply say they will evaluate the season once its over? we were so far away in everything from squad depth to finances last year and quite frankly we are not consistent enough as a team yet, ability to beat top sides yes but so are swansea or norwich doesnt make them a top side or a side which we aspire to. So many changes and several issues this season have slowed our progress but thats not to say there has not been substantial progress.

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  34. No, you don't. But you can put yourself in a position that is very difficult to get out of.

    Hodgson would have probably just avoided relegation. Same as he did with West Brom.

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  35. I made the same argument many times to you with regards to where liverpool were compared to teams like united arsenal and chelsea yet you chose to ignore it. Yes liverpool were in a better position but once the slide began it has taken 3 years to simply stop the rot, we are completely different club to 15 month ago and yes we should be closer to the top 4 but football does not always work out how we want. we can only work hard and hope our dedication brings us the rewards we deserve 

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  36. Ok it was an exaggeration, but City and spurs were in the bottom half and so were we when Dalglish took over. It is only fair to compare us to them. Also yeah 'you dont get relegated in december' nor do you win the league or claim 4th spot in march. As i said, 12 months on and we are in a better position than spurs or city were 12 months into there re-building process

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  37. Why don't you add Arsenal, Newcastle and Swansea to that list? Newcastle did not have a superior squad, Arsenal also lost their two best players, so you could argue that once Fabregas and Nasri are gone that their squad is no better than ours.

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  38. Exactly, teams like Arsenal always have players like Song, Szczesny in the team, players they pick up for very little and turn into first teamers. Add them to home grown players like Wilshere, bring in young players at a decent price, like Chamberlain, and you can save a lot of money, compared to buying 'established' stars like Downing and 'the next big things' like Henderson and Carroll. Does anyone think that Henderson will turn out to be better than Oxlade-Chamberlain? He ought to be, he cost twice as much. 

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  39. I take your points, but unlike Liverpool, Spurs and City have not been constant top 4/Cl material for the last 12 years. City were basically building from scratch; Spurs less so, but they still started from a worse point than LFC, yet both have overtaken us.

    It should also be noted that Spurs' wage bill is about 40% lower than Liverpool's, yet they continue to do better than us.

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  40. What will winning the Carling Cup (some people are talking as if the FA Cup is in the bag already) do for next season if we finish behind Newcastle and just ahead of Swansea and Stoke? All of those teams above us, and those just behind us, will be looking to progress also, based on what we've seen why should we believe we will progress faster than Newcastle, Chelsea or Arsenal? Will we have to win another cup next season to have a 'good' season? Given that we had no European football to worry about, it should have been easier for us to challenge this season.

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  41. But people seem to want these businesses to operate at a loss for their entertainment.

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  42. I appreciate what you are saying and agree are league placing is unacceptable and we need to be finishing in the top 4 regularly again, but can you not see how winning something tangible brings a team together and basis to push on from? Imagine the feeling of lifting a cup in front of thousands of your own fans? You'd become hungry for that feeling again.

    Success in the cups should become the bare minimum of any season. Next year we should expect more.

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  43. Yes, I totally agree with you - winning cups is always a good thing. I think the issue here is that Dalglish and many fans seem to be suggesting that winning cups:

    * Is more important than performance in the league
    * Is a greater sign of overall progress than performance in the league

    I just can't agree with either of those points.

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  44. I agree with you two, but the main thing, in my opinion, is whether you have a good team or not. If Athletic Bilbao go on to win the Europa League, it could be the beginning of something big for them, because they seem to have good players. But winning the Carling Cup was the beginning of a nightmare for Birmingham City, because, ultimately, their team was not that great. It remains to be seen whether our team will turn out to be a Birmingham City type example or whether these players are good enough to step up. Somehow i doubt it.

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  45. there is no difference with the fan base my friend, tell me one fan that does not want their team to win the league. every club is ambitious. yes we have had more success, but we have had more success than man city but does that mean they are not ambitious? the way i see it, this year we had 3 competitions to play for and had 5 top teams all vyingfor them 3 prizes, if we get 2 then that is great success

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  46. to be fair if we did that, that would be quality!!!

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  47. Yes, it should have. But it didn't work out that way. And sometimes you have to just take what you can get. 
    The squad has been overhauled, we have a couple of 'next big things' of our own (Raheem, Suso, Henderson!!) , and in a lot of games we have genuinely played some nice stuff. A poacher would have got us 20+ more points, but it wasn't to be.Maybe that's why Comolli made the recent comments about adding just the one or two additions in the summer, as they want the current team to evolve and grow together? And hopefully they will be stronger next season. They may even learn from their mistakes.....At Christmas we all agreed it was a 'work in progress', then they teased us a bit so we actually believed they would finish above Chelsea and the Arse. Unfortunately a missed open goal from Kelly (which I am pretty sure Token would have put away) and a last-minute goal by RVP turned Liverpool from genuine contenders for a CL spot into 'deluded' and 'abject mediocrity'.Let's at least wait 'til the end of the season until we judge. After all, we very nearly sneaked a CL spot last season after being 3 points above the relegation zone at the turn of the year.I always think Liverpool need to win a cup every season to have had a 'good' season.

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  48. What I mean is that Newcastle aren't Liverpool in terms of success as well as they aren't used to the taste of CL football like we are. So they have less arrogant need and hunger for CL football than we do, even though they would love it. 

    Of course, every single club would love to win the league, play CL football, etc, but not every club has the same arrogant/reputation for having that kind of success.

    I am talking about Newcastle and Liverpool, not Liverpool and Man City, as Newcastle haven't spent like Man City in recent times, hence the difference. CL football was always more important for City than winning the FA Cup.

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  49. Definitely each to their own. Anything outside the top six, is a horrendous season for a club of our stature, the struggles of Arsenal/Chelsea this season and the amount that was spent on players by us.

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  50. Jamie I agree with you again. Your spot on. It's beyond belief that some fans r r completely blind. Yes it's KD and we all know that he's a legend but isn't the club LFC more important than enything. I'm afraid that we r becomenin like Newcatle fans with K Kegan. I mean just how many clubs appoint their legends as mngr and stick by him when having a very average season. Cos all the big clubs have legends but they don't appoint them as menagers. The one I can think of right now is Guardiola at Barca but one thing is for sure that if he had one season with Barca like the one we r having he woudnt b a menager the season after cos the fans wouldn't have it just cos he's a legend at Baca.

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  51. I hope you are right! If we'd had a poacher tonight, we'd have been 5-0 up before their comeback, but, still, the manner of that loss suggests that there are many problems within the squad.

    Arsenal, generally considered to be mentally weak, have gone from strength to strength and we are now 13 points behind them. The way we fell apart tonight suggests to me that our club is mentally weak at the moment.

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  52. I just hope that if we don't win the FA Cup, Kenny will do the decent thing and avoid an embarrassing situation. It would be horrible to see him getting fired after all he has done for the club.

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